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Cliffjumper
2003-01-09, 02:31 AM
Damn that's a terrifically bad comic! How Stan Lee and Jack Kirby have the kinda rep they do is quite beyond me... for a start, I know he created the originals, but did Stan really have to use the Thing and The Human Torch as The Beast and Iceman? House of Repeatedly Used Ideas, more like. Add to that classic Lee exposition throughout [Stan luv, it really isn't necessary to use the bloody names in each speech bubble if you've info-dumped them on page 1...], plus the fact that Kirby's got about 5 poses in his repertoire... how the Hell did this get voted into the top 10 Marvel comics ever? Heck, how did the original X-Men notch up 60-odd issues on the back of this?

Ultimate Weapon
2003-01-09, 02:48 AM
One word Magneto, one of Marvels finest villan's. In the end Evil always overshadows good. Example Doom is more popular than FF4.

Cliffjumper
2003-01-09, 02:55 AM
Yeh, Magneto does probably save the issue from being totally worthless, and he's easily the best thing on the title before the '75 re-vamp... he's also done quite well since, as personally I don't find him too over-used, at least as far as the main X-Men titles go... His AWC & X-Force appearances were classy too, though I didn't find either of his recent mini-series [Magneto Rex and Dark Seduction] that engaging... Still, I like him enough to actually own Magneto #0, and X-Men Unlimited #2 is an all-time classic book.

Doom's always been more interesting that the F4 to me, mainly because lots of post-Lee F4 writers seemed to take the F4 as Lee had done them as gospel, and from what I've read, they always reverted to type eventually, even if Ben did get mutated, or Reed went a bit crazy. But Doom's appearance is generally a good sign for any story as he has such a sense of pathos about him... if I had to single out a favourite Doom moment, it'd probably come from the Emperor Doom GN [which is actually a lot better than I thought it'd be], where he has the chance to flood the avengers with nerve gas, but doesn't do it, as it wouldn't be a challenge... He generally steals the show in anything he appears in, even now...

Hound
2003-01-09, 03:01 AM
Well, not that it will make the comic any better but this was one of like 8 or 9 comics that Stan Lee and Jack Kirby were doing at the time. Plus Lee was also the editor of all those books. You really can't expect every comic to be a masterpiece under those conditions.

Cliffjumper
2003-01-09, 03:07 AM
I suppose... but then why did Lee set himself up another book? Were there no other comic writers...? While I do understand the difficult conditions, and the differing times meaning that obviously it's going to look visually terrible against, say, New X-Men 114, it's more the automatic "#1 equals classic issue" thing which gets me, as shown in the Top 100 Marvels poll... I mean, it would seem there are a sufficient number of people out there who think that from Amazing Fantasy #15, it was downhill from there on, as the thing won...

Hound
2003-01-09, 03:22 AM
:eyebrow:
Ok, wait... What list? Where was it published? What morons voted X-Men#1 in the top 10 Marvel comics ever? I can think of 10 X-Men comics that are better than the first issue, hell I can think of almost 10 issues of X-Men that were published before 1975 that are better than the first issue. Did any of the Neal Adams issues make that list? People are stupid. Stupid stupid stupid. Did I say they were stupid? *sigh* :glance:

Cliffjumper
2003-01-09, 03:43 AM
Bear with me while I type up as much of the list as I can find...
The Poll was conducted in 2001, I think via Wizard and forms in most Marvel comics...
Actually, I'll do what I can find of the top 25: -

25. Uncanny X-Men #141
24. Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #48 [First Silver Surfer, Galactus]
23. Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 1 #1
22. Daredevil #181 [Death of Electra]
21. Avengers Vol. 1 #1
20. Uncanny X-Men #350 [Trial of Gambit]
19. Amazing Spider-Man #122 [Death of Green Goblin]
18. Captain America #108 [Retelling of origin]
17. Incredible Hulk #181 [1st Wolverine]
16. X-Men #25 ['91 series, battle with Magneto on Avalon]
15. Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 1 #33
14. Spider-Man #1 [McFarlane]
13. Incredible Hulk Vol. 1 #1 [Origin]
12. Ultimate X-Men #1
11. Daredevil 227
10. Wolverine #75 [1st bone claws]
9. Ultimate Spider-Man #1
8. X-Men #1 [63 series]
7. Avengers Vol. 1 #4 [1st Silver Age Captain America]
6. Amazing Spider-Man #121 [Death of Gewn Stacy]
5. X-Men #1 [91 series, Claremont/Lee]
4. Giant-Size X-Men #1 [1st Storm, Nightcrawler]
3. Uncanny X-Men #137 [Death of Phoenix]
2. Fantastic Four Vol. 1 #1 [Origin]
1. Amazing Fantasy #15 [Spider-Man origin]

Top 100 - http://www.geocities.com/paulo_costa_2000/DETAILS.HTM#S99N0

#25-#6 were reprinted in ascending order in TPBs containing four issues, quite nice to have, and the top 5 were given individual reprints...

BigMaki
2003-01-09, 03:48 AM
Wolverine #75 is #10? Was I reading the wrong issue?

edit: At least Avengers #4 is in the top 10. I drool every time I see it on the shelf at the shop...

Cliffjumper
2003-01-09, 03:58 AM
Oh, I got publicly branded the anti-christ for my views on Avengers #4 when it was reprinted in Avengers United over here... Even Lew "Combat Colin/Robo-Capers" Stringer wrote in to have a go at me...

Incidentally, I think Marvel saying they'd be reprinting the top 25 led to the poll being seen as "The Greatest Marvel Comic You'd Like a Cheap Reprint Of"...

EDIT: If you hate Wolverine #75, you could always give it to that chain-smoking English git who threatens to torment you with horrible Essential X-Men covers...

Hound
2003-01-09, 04:19 AM
I literally cringed 3 times while reading that list.

People have got the lowest standards. That list speaks poorly for the quality of Marvel comics as compared to DC. I could find 25 DC comics that are all better than anything listed there. In case I haven't mentioned it people are stupid.

BigMaki
2003-01-09, 04:19 AM
Originally posted by Quicksilver
Oh, I got publicly branded the anti-christ for my views on Avengers #4 when it was reprinted in Avengers United over here... Even Lew "Combat Colin/Robo-Capers" Stringer wrote in to have a go at me...
What, you didn't like it? ;) I love that cover, regardless of what you say about the interior. Among my favorite covers ever, along with Planetary #2 and Uncanny #251...

Incidentally, I think Marvel saying they'd be reprinting the top 25 led to the poll being seen as "The Greatest Marvel Comic You'd Like a Cheap Reprint Of"...
Too bad they only picked half of 2-parters like "Days of Future Past" then...

EDIT: If you hate Wolverine #75, you could always give it to that chain-smoking English git who threatens to torment you with horrible Essential X-Men covers...
Hey, I'm taking those Ben Raab Excaliburs off of your hands, so... ;) And I thought X-Men 2099 was the threat?

Not that it's a horrible issue, it's just not what I would deem as top 10 material, especially when you've got UCX 141, DD 181 and others further down the list, while gems like UCX 186 aren't on there. Oh wait, nothing much happens in 186, never mind... ;)

Edit: I do think Amazing #121 is in the right place, too bad 122 is so much further down, though.

Cliffjumper
2003-01-09, 04:25 AM
Yeh, but I left X-Men 2099 at home, in my newly defined "Charity Shop Pile" if a free-to-collection ad in the local paper doesn't find someone who wants it all...

I'm not a Kirby/Lee fan, and in a generally [and childishly] positive letter I mentioned that I felt the story was flat and undynamic, but said I generally liked the classic stories... the editor, and my current arch-nemesis "Scott" wrote a reply on the letters page saying that whether I liked it or not, the classic section was staying, and I was generally crucifed for disliking anything before 1998. Which was nice.

That top 100 is well screwy... I doubt there's more than a dozen books which don't have an origin, 1st appearance or death in them... IIRC, I voted:

1. X-Men #25
2. Excalibur #91
3. Onslaught: Marvel Universe
4. Uncanny X-Men #226
5. Avengers Vol. 3 #12

EDIT: I should add that before the reprints, I hadn't read Spidey #121-122 or Daredevil #188, which all rocked... and since I filled my ballot, X-Men #112, New X-Men 114-116, Amazing Spiderman Vol. 2 #36 & 38, Tangled Web #13 and Avengers Vol. 3 #49 would all be in there...

BigMaki
2003-01-09, 04:35 AM
Originally posted by Quicksilver
IIRC, I voted:

1. X-Men #25
2. Excalibur #91
3. Onslaught: Marvel Universe
4. Uncanny X-Men #226
5. Avengers Vol. 3 #12
I'll have to reread X-Men 25 again... Excalibur 91 was indeed classic. I'll have to reread UCX 226 as well, that's the double sized Fall of the Mutants one, right? Don't have the others, but I may have a look at that Avengers one...

EDIT: I should add that before the reprints, I hadn't read Spidey #121-122 or Daredevil #188, which all rocked... and since I filled my ballot, X-Men #112, New X-Men 114-116, Amazing Spiderman Vol. 2 #36 & 38, Tangled Web #13 and Avengers Vol. 3 #49 would all be in there...
Would you believe my cousins had Amazing 118-131 and I got to read them all one summer when I was up in Minnesota about 15 years ago? This was before I knew what any of the comics were worth, of course. Too bad when I realized a couple years later, my aunt had thrown them out... 121, 122, 129, straight to the trash. Story of my life. At least I got to read them first... :)

Cliffjumper
2003-01-09, 04:43 AM
Originally posted by BigMaki
I'll have to reread X-Men 25 again... Excalibur 91 was indeed classic. I'll have to reread UCX 226 as well, that's the double sized Fall of the Mutants one, right? Don't have the others, but I may have a look at that Avengers one...

Excalibur #91 is a masterpiece... the only gripe is it's a shame there are about 4 different artists, but then that's not what that one's about.... "I will personally rip your head off..." "...and I will spend days mocking it and drawing pictures on it and then teleport it into the North Sea."

UCX 226 - Yup, that's the one... Avengers #12 is probably a bit of an Avengers fan thing... I loved the team and the book and just felt I ought to put something with them in on my ballot... it's a great comic, with the Avengers coming up against Hawkeye's Thunderbolts, but I doubt it'd convert you if you're not a fan... I would have put Ellis' X-Force & X-Man runs in somewhere too, but I couldn't decide on a single issue...

Hound
2003-01-09, 04:51 AM
I just read the first Ellis issue of X-Man. I didn't care for it. Does the story get better?

Edit: Has Ellis done anything besides besides Counter X, Authority and Stormwatch?

Cliffjumper
2003-01-09, 05:07 AM
It does pick up pace, but X-Man is something of an acquired taste...

Ellis also did Stormwatch, The Authority and Planetary... For Marvel he started off on Hellstorm and I believe the last year or so's worth of Doom 2099, and also did Excalibur from about #80-103 [including X-Caliber], the Storm limited series, the superb Pryde & Wisdom, plus Generation X 63-66... Oh, and Ministry of Space for Image is highly recommended.

Hound
2003-01-09, 05:19 AM
Now I've got to reread those Excalibur issues, I've got them but I don't think I was paying much attention to the X-Men titles at the time. I do remember thinking that Excalibur wasn't too bad though.

The Pryde&Wisdom mini I remember as being good. The Storm mini sucked though...

Cliffjumper
2003-01-09, 05:23 AM
IIRC, he only scripted that... I re-read it the other day and didn't mind it, but it's far from classic... his exlibur stuff is great... it's funny, but in a different way to the surreal Claremont/Davis stuff, with terrific charatcer work, especially on Brian, Piotr and Pete. Pryde & Wisdom is a masterpiece, probably the best ever relationship in comics history showcased brilliantly... loved the tacky covers too :) Then after Eliis has worked so damn hard turning the book around, who do they get in? Ben Bloody Raab.

Hound
2003-01-09, 05:51 AM
Originally posted by Quicksilver
Ben Bloody Raab.
Yeah, he's the sole reason I'll never have to worry about getting those Excalibur issues I don't have...

Cliffjumper
2003-01-09, 06:04 AM
"I know... if I concentrate entirely on Nightcrawler, Colossus and Shadowcat, everyone will forget Brian, Meggan and Pete exist, and will assume it's something to do with Uncanny X-Men"...

Hound
2003-01-09, 06:14 AM
All I remember of Raab on Excalibur is something having to do with that Crimson Tide stuff they had going on with Psylocke at the time. What I liked about Excalibur was that it wasn't really an "X-title". It had it's own thing going and only had a few X-Men characters in it, that was it's only tie in. It went in a different direction. Then they changed that and the title never got to be as interesting. Ellis definitely tried to but it was too late by then.

Cliffjumper
2003-01-09, 06:21 AM
Aye... the book took a big dip after Davis left the second time, and Ellis had pretty much turned it around, but it was a poor man's X-Men by the end... I bloody hated the Crimson Dawn at the best of times. Raab just pissed over Ellis' hard work, writing out Brian and Pete almost straight away [Wisdom for sure he had no idea what to do with... he's barely in the thing before he leaves]... the Colossus/Meggan love story is one of the more desperate storylines I can remember, and after all the hard work Warren did making Dougloack work, Raab just didn't even try... A very sad end for a favourite book of mine... I just never worked out how it took them so long to cancel the thing, something which damaged X-Factor too...

Hound
2003-01-09, 06:39 AM
Yeah there are quite a few books out there that could benefit from a good cancelation...

...like Xtreme Xmen.

Y'know I like Storm, too bad she's only featured in a suck ass comic. I wonder what Morrison would do with her or if he even likes the character.

BTW, why is Bishop still alive, why didn't he sacrifice himself to the legacy frickin virus? Then Colossus would still be alive... Bastards!

Cliffjumper
2003-01-09, 06:45 AM
Bishop's just way past being interesting anymore... he was ok when he first turned up but then went downhill, especially post-Onslaught... I've always been a bit indifferent towards Storm... Sadly, I don't see her fitting on either New or Uncanny... Austen actually looks like settling on a team, don't confuse him... I just want to see Forge again. Rogue's suffered from a horrid amount of over-exposure since Claremont returned to writing X-Men, and Gambit hasn't been interesting since his trial sadly...

Hound
2003-01-09, 07:01 AM
I wouldn't mind seeing Forge again. What happened to him anyway? Is he just in limbo?

There has to be like 40 or 50 X-men type characters floating around in limbo right?

BTW, I heard Marvel is going to raise the prices of the following books, I hope you don't collect any of them, I know I don't...
Agent X
Black Panther
Captain Marvel
Exiles
Iron Man
Marville
Soldier X
Spider-Girl
Thor
Thunderbolts
Ultimate Adventures
Weapon x
X-Statix

from $2.25 to $2.99 (American)

Cliffjumper
2003-01-09, 07:17 AM
Originally posted by Hound
I wouldn't mind seeing Forge again. What happened to him anyway? Is he just in limbo?

There has to be like 40 or 50 X-men type characters floating around in limbo right?

Book prices... only Captain Marvel hits me, so that's only an extra 40p or so...

Forge - last seen back as general mansion utility man [a la 1991] in Clarmont's last run on the main titles... hate to say it, but the best bet would be an appearance in X-Treme...

By my reckoning, former X-team members not featured in a book since Morrison, Casey et al that are still alive are thus:

Jesse Bedlam [might be dead], Pete Wisdom [I am going to ****ing kill Ian Edginton], Mimic, most of Alpha Flight bar the Beaubier twins [though some have turned up in Wolverine], Shard, Strong Guy, Wolfsbane, Captain Britain & Meggan [currently residing as monarchs in Otherworld], Maggott, Mondo [though I neither know nor care what happened to him], Penance, Artie, Leech, Forge, Longshot [possibly dead], Dazzler, Shatterstar, Sunspot and some obvious people I can't remember. Oh, and Micromax, though he did cameo in Avengers last year...

Alpha Trion
2003-01-11, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by Quicksilver

5. X-Men #1 [91 series, Claremont/Lee]

As far as I can recall, there was nothing special about this book. Its been a year ortwo since I've read it, but I don't remember any spectacular event that would make it better than all but 4 Marvel books. Can someone enlighten me as to how this appeared in the Top 10?

Cliffjumper
2003-01-11, 08:41 AM
A good example of just how good the Claremont/Lee years were? I agree it shouldn't be so high, but it is a good comic, everyone gets something to do, and Magneto's great in it... Interesting sidenote: most comic shops still have piles of the reprint, as the $2.95 cover price is more than most of the covers of the original printing are worth...