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Nevermore
2005-05-14, 10:14 PM
For the details, see here:

http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/thread74216.html

However, there's been a debate spawned off about whether the subs should keep the Japanese names (Convoy, Broadcast, Cybertrons/Seibertron/Destrons etc.) or revert to the American names (Optimus Prime, Blaster, Autobots/Cybertron/Decepticons).

This will only apply to the characters who have already been established by the US cartoon and will not affect future projects for Masterforce and Victory, which have completely difefrent characters from their respective US counterparts.

Sixswitch
2005-05-14, 10:54 PM
On the one hand, I feel that since the shows are not American, they should stick with the original names. On the other hand, this may confuse many of the people who'd buy the DVD, and might put others off.

I'd personally prefer they use the Japanese names, but in terms of commercial sensibility, it makes more sense to use the American ones.

Ss

Denyer
2005-05-14, 10:58 PM
The original Japanese names, so that you can read an approximation of what you're hearing. Substitution would be more confusing.

Nevermore
2005-05-14, 11:00 PM
Originally posted by Denyer
The original Japanese names, so that you can read an approximation of what you're hearing. Substitution would be more confusing.

What you're hearing is Japanese. That's already a lot of substitution. What difference do the names of characters make?

Plus, imagine the outcry of an audience whose primary exposure to Transformers is the original TF:TM, and maybe the American cartoon, but who have no clue about "Tatakae" and "2010". Alternators Meister will be nothing compared to that.

Denyer
2005-05-14, 11:58 PM
Originally posted by Nevermore
What you're hearing is Japanese. That's already a lot of substitution. What difference do the names of characters make?They aren't the same characters, for a start. Prime lives in the US show, Convoy dies (again) in the Japanese.

I like being able to match parts of dialogue to subtitles; I also dislike a lot of liberties being taken in producing idiomatic translation—I'd rather have original metaphors, for example. I've sat through English films with subs, and even with what I know of the languages the subtitles were in, I could pick out parts that conveyed the wrong intention, when blocks of dialogue were omitted, etc.

Throw in a "who's who" sheet and unusally interested fans (who are the market for subtitled eps—an average viewer in the UK won't watch a subtitled video except under duress) will love it.

People wouldn't bother writing out my name as "second who manages the King's affairs" or yours as "stone holy to the thunder god", either. It's easier to stick to names as written. The same goes for manga that's reversed in printing, but goes on to refer to a character's left and right in the text.

Originally posted by Nevermore
Plus, imagine the outcry of an audience whose primary exposure to Transformers is the original TF:TM, and maybe the American cartoon, but who have no clue about "Tatakae" and "2010". Alternators Meister will be nothing compared to that. Meister has been widely accepted—very few people bother to write out 'Alternators Jazz'. Plus, I derive a certain amount of pleasure from the 'misery', infantile whining and opportunity to put the boot in.

Nevermore
2005-05-15, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by Denyer
They aren't the same characters, for a start. Prime lives in the US show, Convoy dies (again) in the Japanese.

They're based on the same character who originated in the US show and then got his name changed for the Japanese dub of "Tatakae".

I like being able to match parts of dialogue to subtitles; I also dislike a lot of liberties being taken in producing idiomatic translation—I'd rather have original metaphors, for example.

Nah. That really doesn't work - literally translating idioms gives you lots of strange sentences hardly anyone who doesn't happen to know a bit about the original language could make sense out of.
Translations should be done as close to the original as possible, but as "free" as necessary. If a metaphor makes zero sense in English, a substitute metaphor with roughly the same meaning should be picked instead.
What's extremely difficult to translate is puns. An example from German: When translated into English, you can't have some juvenile jokes about how "primal instinct" looks when spelled in two words - in German, "Urinstinkt" would get separated into "Urin stinkt", which would then mean "urine stinks". The best substitute would be the old "Uranus" joke. Literally translated, you'd run into major problems in terms of undertsnading the joke, without knowing jack about the original language in the first place.

I've sat through English films with subs, and even with what I know of the languages the subtitles were in, I could pick out parts that conveyed the wrong intention, when blocks of dialogue were omitted, etc.

Sure, translation is a tricky field. I know some guys who work as comic book translators, and the one thing I could gather from reading discussions about this matter on message boards was that it's impossible to have a "perfect" translation. A translation is always an interpretation as well (i.e. "what did the writer want to say with this dialogue? How do I best convey that intention into the other language?"), and literal translations tend to be rather difficult to understand.
The best compromise for a good translation, as stated above, is trying to stick close to the original meaning but use as many liberties as necessary to make the dialogue look fluent enough for the target language.

Throw in a "who's who" sheet and unusally interested fans (who are the market for subtitled eps—an average viewer in the UK won't watch a subtitled video except under duress) will love it.

Yeah, those will probably feel appalled by the Star TV dubs... Though I think Chris said he'd try and get a special notw on the "quality" of those dubs onto the DVD.

People wouldn't bother writing out my name as "second who manages the King's affairs" or yours as "stone holy to the thunder god", either. It's easier to stick to names as written. The same goes for manga that's reversed in printing, but goes on to refer to a character's left and right in the text.

We're talking about characters who have established English names for about 20 years, though. Plus, those English names are their original names, with the Japanese names being the "translations" to begin with. :)

Meister has been widely accepted—very few people bother to write out 'Alternators Jazz'. Plus, I derive a certain amount of pleasure from the 'misery', infantile whining and opportunity to put the boot in.

You seem to be visiting other places than I do. I see many people go on bragging about "Alt Jazz" or how "stupid Hasbro SHOULD have given him his REAL name". :)

Alpha Trion
2005-05-15, 01:51 AM
I'll import the DVD if they leave in the Japanese names, but I'll stick to my fansubs if they use Optimus Prime, Blaster, etc. Few things bother me than when characters' names are changed when anime is translated. The big red robot who turns into a truck was never referred to as "Optimus Prime" within the context of Headmasters; why should he be called that on the DVD? It's inaccurate. Same goes for Cybertron/Autobot, Seibertron/Cybertron, etc.

Most people outside the TF fandom picking this up will never use the subs and Japanese track anyway; the uninitiated are just going for a bit of nostalgia and will most likely only watch with the dub, which doesn't have proper names anyway (Billy!). You might as well keep the subs accurate to the Japanese dialogue.

Somebody at 2005 was saying that not only should the returning characters from the dubbed US show have their western names, but also the entire main cast who make their first appearance in Headmasters. This is a terrible idea; they're definitely not meant to be the same characters. That line of thinking is what turned me off from the fandubs; even the Dinoforce members in Victory were referred to by the names of similar western toys.

Denyer
2005-05-15, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by Nevermore
literally translating idioms gives you lots of strange sentences hardly anyone who doesn't happen to know a bit about the original language could make sense out of [...] A translation is always an interpretationReading or watching is already an interpretation; I'd prefer not to have someone rewrite the story further on top of that.

The place for rewrites is dubbing. For instance, Shrek has been released in many different languages and jokes rewritten to be topical to different audiences. When watching subtitles, I want to know what's being said rather than what someone thought was better and guessed the writer may have meant.

Originally posted by Nevermore
those English names are their original names, with the Japanese names being the "translations" to begin with.As you point out, they aren't translations. They're names assigned to characters from the beginning of that continuity. The continuity becomes substantially different to the US show, by which they're emphatically not the same characters. What begins as a transposition doesn't end up that way, so releasing it as an extension to the US show with Season Three characters, as an 'alternative' to Season Four... is nonsensical.

Cliffjumper
2005-05-15, 02:13 AM
Bear in mind I haven't read the link, as AOL is being very, very ****ty at the mo.

Yeh, but you visit a special fanboy-crammed board, it would seem, as I've never seen half the crap you claim fanboys are always banging on about anywhere [outisde of the posts where you mention it anyway]. Maybe I have limited experience with TF boards. Or maybe I get the right amount. Who cares?

Erm, Japanese names. Because they're Japanese shows. These things will be selling to a bunch of hardcore fans within fans. As Denyer says, only the hardcore anime/foreign film fans will even look at the cover of a subbed DVD over here. This thing's going to be selling to converted Transformers fans only, and then only really the ones of those that care for the Japanese shows. It'll cause as much confusion Westernising the names as anything else... Sure, it makes things easier for the four people interested who haven't got thirty-odd sites of Japanese Transformers stuff bookmarked, for those first dozen episodes where the characters from Season 3 are still around. But then what do you do about Fortress Maximus, for example? So Spike's a small robot, right? And he climbs into Cerebros, who's his bigger suit, and looks totally different to the way he did in Rebirth... oooookay. And then there's Mega-Zarak. Sure, it might sound like something off Dragonball-Z, but then you've got the Trainbots charging around with names like Yukikaze and Getsuei. Or is it that it'll upset some fans to rename loved characters things like Sprung, Lambor [Gobots!], Dinosaurer and Wipe. Because if that's the problem, then they'll be in real trouble later on when guys with names like Cab, Roadking and Gaihawk turn up. Or are they just going to Westernise some, meaning it's pointless to do any?

My basic thoughts are that as it's only particularly relevant to the first half of Headmasters, there's no point whatsoever. Why bother doing Star-TV subs? Anyone who cares enough to buy the things will know that Convoy is Op in Japan, and respectable sleeve notes will cover up any minor problems.

Plus there's also the question of how much of the deep, subtle meanings of Headmasters we'd lose as a result of literal translations. The thing's idea of subtlety is to kill off a major Autobot character, go for a big weepy ending, bring him back as a new toy a week or so later, and then stick him in a bit part role for thirty episodes.

DrSpengler
2005-05-15, 02:54 AM
Japanese names. I mean, really, how hard would it be for the average viewer to figure out that "Optimus Prime" is called "Convoy" in Japan by watching the DVD? I don't think it would take too much effort. I think a disoriented/confused viewer would figure it out pretty quickly.

Personally, I prefer accuracy when it comes to translations. At least with proper nouns. I don't want names "Westernized", especially when the characters are speaking in Japanese. If anything, if a character is yelling "Fortress!" and the subtitle reads "Spike!" it'll probably just cause even more confusion.

Roadstripe
2005-05-15, 05:56 AM
I say half-and-half.

All the characters who are basically the same as their American versions can keep their American names (eg. Optimus Prime, Hot Rod, Punch/Counterpunch, the Monsterbots, Autobots, Spike). The Japanese exclusive characters use their Japanese names (the Trainbots, Soundblaster, Twincast, Sappho). Considering that they're a different take on the same characters as the American versions, the Headmasters and Targetmasters go both ways – the big robots and the transtectors use the American names (with the exception of Scorponok) while the heads and guns (and Scorponok) use the Japanese names.

Of course, that's probably too complex for a subbing company, but – eh.

Osku
2005-05-15, 08:07 AM
Japanese show, japanese characters -> Japanese names.

There aren't that many and with a proper introduction who's who list, it's easy to understand. There's a fan involved in the project, so I'd think they can make it work.

I like being able to match parts of dialogue to subtitles; I also dislike a lot of liberties being taken in producing idiomatic translation—I'd rather have original metaphors, for example. I've sat through English films with subs, and even with what I know of the languages the subtitles were in, I could pick out parts that conveyed the wrong intention, when blocks of dialogue were omitted, etc.
A bit off topic of translation. I'm more on Nevermore's side. Most of the foreign language programs (and there's a lot) here is subtitled. In my opinion it works the best when the translation is as much as possible literal, but also using good Finnish. Everything can't be straight word for word translation without becoming bad language.

I'm also of the opinion that when the wordplays can't be translated, use the similar meaning expression. Those who understand the original dialogue can spot the difference and possibly learn something new, and those who don't understand can get the meaning otherwise they wouldn't. Subtitles are meant for those who don't understand the original dialogue after all.

One particular problem with Finnish, is that the words are long. Sometimes translators run out of space trying to translate everything from the dialogue. :p

Edit: There's a poll now
http://www.tfw2005.com/boards/thread74437.html

Nevermore
2005-05-15, 09:17 AM
When something literally translated is, will it like this looking. Thereby can many understanding problems arise. Yoda much? ;)

Seriously - the idea is really just to re-change the names of a small number of characters who are already established characters in the West. For the newly introduced HM cast, they're thinking about keeping the Japanese names (yes, evenm Yukikaze and Getsuei). They won't name the small head for Fortress Maximus "Spike" because Spike is a separate character, and they're still thinking about a good solution for the whole "(Mega)Zarak/Scorponok" issue.

But the primary concern for this poll is really just Convoy/Optimus Prime, Broadcast/Blaster, Hot Rodimus/Hot Rod, Rodimus Convoy/Rodimus Prime, Cybertrons/Autobots, Seibertron/Cybertron, Destrons/Decepticons, Char/Kup, Sprung/Springer and maybe one or two more.

stoltobot
2005-05-15, 09:20 AM
I call them by their Jap names when I am watching/mentioning the Jap cartoon or when I refer to my MP Convoy. Personally, I can't stand when subbers take too many liberties so I say keep them in Jap. Besides, how difficult would it be to put two sets of subs into the DVD? It's only a matter of swapping every instance of several words in thirty-five twenty-minute cartoons.
________
Toyota pod history (http://www.toyota-wiki.com/wiki/Toyota_Pod)

Denyer
2005-05-15, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Nevermore
When something literally translated is, will it like this looking. Grammar and syntax are an overlay on a language ; idiom isn't. "Du bist wohl vom wilden Affen gebissen!" doesn't mean "you're out of your mind", for instance, and that's the type of mangling I'd like to avoid—it doesn't matter that "bitten by a wild monkey" isn't a common English idiom.

Especially in glyphic languages and cultures. One of the biggest challenges in Kemetian records is that order is often coincident with appearance. That and a reader today is more inclined to look for single-word translation rather than connect 'ibis' and 'Nile'.

Speaking of which, as far as pluralities in modern Japanese go, I'd rather not see a digression by translators to give context to, say, 'four' being related to 'death'. The nuance is there for anyone who'll recognise it anyway, without having to throw in another sentence or fragment that isn't there in dialogue.

Mega Zarak isn't Scorponok. Scorponok was last seen tumbling into space, or for preference was melted by Unicron. Scorponok never said "Fortress Maximus himself has come," unless my memory of the Headmasters comic is betraying me.

Nevermore
2005-05-15, 01:44 PM
Originally posted by Denyer
Grammar and syntax are an overlay on a language ; idiom isn't. "Du bist wohl vom wilden Affen gebissen!" doesn't mean "you're out of your mind", for instance, and that's the type of mangling I'd like to avoid—it doesn't matter that "bitten by a wild monkey" isn't a common English idiom.

Well, I'd certainly not translate something like that literally. It'll confuse more people than it would give an impression of foreign idioms. If it's self-explanatory from the context, it might be okay to keep it, but if it'd just come off as confusing, I'd favor a substitute.

I know this debate all too well. There's also been lots of debates in the past whether established translated/substitute German names for superheroes should be kept or whether the trend to revert to English names ("Die Spinne" became "Spider-Man" once Panini picked up the Marvel licenses, for example, and the "Gerechtigkeitsliga" was re-re-dubbed "Justice League" by Dino and subsequently also by Panini) should also be expanded on "Die Rächer" (the Avengers) and "Die Fantastischen Vier" (the Fantastic Four).

Mega Zarak isn't Scorponok. Scorponok was last seen tumbling into space, or for preference was melted by Unicron. Scorponok never said "Fortress Maximus himself has come," unless my memory of the Headmasters comic is betraying me.

And neither are RiD and Armada Optimus Prime G1 Optimus Prime. Your point being?

chimung
2005-05-15, 01:53 PM
Well since this is on DVD I assume its safe to say that TV-Nihon can no longer supply fansubs?
If that's the case I'll have to order the set from the UK, then re burn it to Region 1 DVD for my home viewing.

Denyer
2005-05-15, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Nevermore
And neither are RiD and Armada Optimus Prime G1 Optimus Prime. Your point being? That they're all different characters, in clashing continuities?

Armada Prime isn't RiD Prime who isn't 'G1' US cartoon Prime who isn't G2 UK comic Prime who isn't Galaxy Convoy who isn't FSRL Convoy.

Ta for making the argument for me, though...

Originally posted by Nevermore
I'd certainly not translate something like that literally.To put it as simply as possible: I'm not interested in what the translator wants to write. I'm interested in what the author wrote. That means I've got the original audio and some visual notes on it; if the notes are simply fabrication, there's no value to having the original audio.

Guest
2005-05-15, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Denyer
[B]That they're all different characters, in clashing continuities?

Armada Prime isn't RiD Prime who isn't 'G1' US cartoon Prime who isn't G2 UK comic Prime who isn't Galaxy Convoy who isn't FSRL Convoy.

The point he's making is that if these characters can all be called Optimus Prime, why can't Convoy be called Optimus Prime for these subtitles? By your rationale, he can still be called that without being G1 US cartoon Prime.

Denyer
2005-05-15, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Guest
he can still be called that without being G1 US cartoon Prime. It wasn't inferred he couldn't—I'm asking why change something that's been established for twenty years for a forced parallel?

God Ginrai can be called Optimus Prime; Metalhawk can be called Optimus Prime; each is similarly inaccurate and arbitrary. There's no reason to rename characters except to ape a series which Headmasters, Masterforce etc aren't part of the continuity of.

Nevermore
2005-05-15, 05:07 PM
God Ginrai can't be Optimus Prime because they're not the same character, and Headmasters and Masterforce are part of the same continuity.

Sixswitch
2005-05-15, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by Nevermore
God Ginrai can't be Optimus Prime because they're not the same character, and Headmasters and Masterforce are part of the same continuity.

But neither are US cartoon Optimus Prime and Japanese cartoon Convoy. Jap Convoy didn't go to Nebulon, or nearly get blown up by the Plasma Energy Chamber. I consider the US Season 1-4 and Jap Season 1-3 to be two different continuities.

-Ss

Chris McFeely
2005-05-15, 05:14 PM
Also, to stop Joe Average (who forms the majority of the market) from going "Who in the blue hell is this "Convoy" they're nattering on about?" when they buy the series and don't recognise any names.

Because, y'now, Convoy is Optimus Prime. The Japanese just gave him a different name when they translated our series, and now that we're translating their series, we're using our name for him. I can appreciate an argument regarding "accuracy to the original." But not this one. "The "not the same character" argument certainly applies to Masterforce, and to some degree, even to the Headmasters themselves, but not to Prime, Hot Rod, Kup, Blaster, etc. They're the same guys.

Chris McFeely
2005-05-15, 05:19 PM
Hey, my old account still exists! Yeah, well, I guess I'll be posting under this name, now. What I said above. Understand that this is not some kind of fanboy-oriented change - the main reasoning behind it is to make the show more immediately accessible to a wider audience. To label characters with names that the casual fan will not know, and not have any interest in learning, when they already have English names that viewers have known them by for twenty years, is just not good marketing.

Denyer
2005-05-15, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by The Original Chris
the casual fan The casual fan won't watch anything but a dub.

Next objection.

Also, something people seem to be missing—it's about five minutes extra work to offer two sets of subtitles. What's the fuss about?

It's text, so no size issues, and the timings only have to be worked out once.

Chris McFeely
2005-05-15, 05:38 PM
The set is going to contain the StarTV dub. There are many examples of the casual fan buying the 6-episode HM DVD Maverick released, and being disappointed at the quality and the naming errors. You don't think they'd opt to switch to the sub in the hope of getting a show that's decently-written with names they recognise?

Furthermore, Ken Law, the production mananger at Metrodome, was originally considering doing away with the dub entirely, and just including the sub, so HE thinks that a sub has casual appeal when the alternative is... er, well, ghastly. :)

Regarding the "two tracks" - I've presented the idea to him. It is indeed definitely the best way to go to appease everyone. But while the mechanics of creating it are simple, I don't know what the additional cost of the process would be, and if the company would be willing to do it.

Osku
2005-05-15, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by The Original Chris
Furthermore, Ken Law, the production mananger at Metrodome, was originally considering doing away with the dub entirely, and just including the sub, so HE thinks that a sub has casual appeal when the alternative is... er, well, ghastly. :)

Regarding the "two tracks" - I've presented the idea to him. It is indeed definitely the best way to go to appease everyone. But while the mechanics of creating it are simple, I don't know what the additional cost of the process would be, and if the company would be willing to do it.
It can be a deciding factory for surprisingly many, especially when importing it (going for little trouble getting it). Not in my case, because I want the box, but to be brutally honest...

If the subtitles are like I want it to be (accurate), I'll order it as soon as it's available. Then I know that the company went an extra mile to please the customer (me) and I want to support them.

If I know that I'm going to gringe every time Convoy is addressed as Optimus Prime, I'm not in a hurry to get the box, but may wait for a good deal (in other words cheaper price).

Denyer
2005-05-15, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by The Original Chris
while the mechanics of creating it are simple, I don't know what the additional cost of the process would be, and if the company would be willing to do it. If they charged more than an hour's time for running a list of substitutions through a text editor, price-gouging would be involved.

Originally posted by The Original Chris
There are many examples of the casual fan buying the 6-episode HM DVD MaverickPeople bought a disc labelled English audio, and felt let down when the audio was complete crap. It remains to be seen what they'd think if they bought a disc of Japanese language videos.

Question for anyone who's following them; what naming format is being used for the TV Nihon fansubs?

CounterPunch
2005-05-15, 07:46 PM
id like one containing both the japanese original audio and the starTV dub.

This way if i felt like watching the show and actually understanding it id watch the japanese original with subtitles but if i just wanted to watch something casually with it in the background but still you know knowing whats going on id watch the dub.

In terms of the american vs japanese names.... i wouldnt mind.

American - It would be the names i know, with the only problem being that when convoy is addressed on audio optimus prime would be addressed through subtitles.

Japanese - it would take me all of like microseconds to remember the names, i would associate the name being said in the audio to the name on subtitles and could therefore deduce the character the name belongs to... so basically, im for anything.

Alpha Trion
2005-05-15, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by chimung
Well since this is on DVD I assume its safe to say that TV-Nihon can no longer supply fansubs?
If that's the case I'll have to order the set from the UK, then re burn it to Region 1 DVD for my home viewing.
TVN have said they will continue subbing Headmasters until official subtitled DVDs are available in R1.
Originally posted by Denyer
Question for anyone who's following them; what naming format is being used for the TV Nihon fansubs?
TVN keeps the accurate names; Convoy/Seibertron/Destron etc.

I can't imagine many people buying this who aren't TF and/or anime fans. Even so, it wouldn't take them long to figure that Optimus Prime is called Convoy in Japan, especially if a simple Who's Who sheet is included. As for Mega Zarak, that shouldn't even be an issue. People outside the fandom zen't likely to remember Scorponok or any other post-movie characters.

The way I see it, if it can't be done accurately, it shouldn't be done at all. I'd love to have HM on DVD, but I know where I can get accurate versions if I'm not pleased with the way they're subbed.

Pun-3X
2005-05-15, 09:12 PM
In regards to accurate dubbing, sure I'd like to see something close to what is being said. Thing is, the change from one language to another language's subtitles tends to differ culturally. Changes based on this are going to occur, though.

Myself, I'd prefer the American names for the original characters. All the talk about a 20-year history of Convoy seems to skip that a good portion of that history was from the States as well, just translated. It's just that at one point, the story veered off into American and Japanese canons. Thing of it is, the switch just so happens to start right at Headmasters. So the idea that we're 'changing' history by using Optimus Prime instead of Convoy is hard to apply if it's right at the start of that change.

Plus the fact that when the cartoon was made here in the States then dubbed in Japan, the names changed. What's the horror in doing it in the reverse? How is it really any different? Again, I'll argue the 'history' point that canon didn't change really until 'Headmasters,' and the U.S.-to-Japan name changing at the beginning of the entire series is no different than a Japan-to-U.S. name changing for the new canon.

In the end, though, further arguements seem to be for preference than any tainting of history. I wouldn't care either way. I'd still buy a set regardless of what they go with.

Osku
2005-05-15, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by Nevermore
This will only apply to the characters who have already been established by the US cartoon and will not affect future projects for Masterforce and Victory, which have completely difefrent characters from their respective US counterparts.
By the way, this info is false, as also the names of Headmasters would be changed, characters that aren't established in the US cartoon (Rebirth not being a part of Japanese continuity). Spike/Cerebros/Fortress Maximus - Cerebros/Fortress and possibly Zarak/Scorponok - Scorponok/Mega Zarak would be exceptions.

Thefallenone
2005-05-16, 08:24 AM
Names should stay the same-some TF Fans i know know nothing about the japanese names for the Transformers and it would make things better for me-too long to know whos who under the takara name.

Chris McFeely
2005-05-16, 10:21 AM
Originally posted by Osku
If the subtitles are like I want it to be (accurate), I'll order it as soon as it's available. Then I know that the company went an extra mile to please the customer (me) and I want to support them.

I appreciate this, but you need to accept that across every board I've polled, the "Japanese names" viewpoint is the minority, and the company is going to want to please the majority.

Plus, if anything, adding the American names is "going the extra mile," because it means more work. ;)

Osku
2005-05-16, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by The Original Chris
I appreciate this, but you need to accept that across every board I've polled, the "Japanese names" viewpoint is the minority, and the company is going to want to please the majority.
I've noticed (something like 1/3) and I can accept that. It doesn't prevent me from pointing out that the choice brings problems with the headmasters names. :) Plus, if you asked the same question about Masterforce, people would most propably vote for American names.

If Masterforce is going to released there's going to be "Hey, you used familiar names in Headmasters. Why not now?" arguement. And quite honestly there's not much else but some different colour schemes to counter that arguement. I've been debating this on NTFA forums (http://www.ntfa.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?s=;act=ST;f=5;t=5738;st=0).

Plus, if anything, adding the American names is "going the extra mile," because it means more work. ;) [/B]
Bah, it's meant to please the wider audience -> something they'll "have to" do to bring in more customers. Going for extra trouble for minority of their customers would be the "going for the extra mile". ;)

Chris McFeely
2005-05-16, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Osku
If Masterforce is going to released there's going to be "Hey, you used familiar names in Headmasters. Why not now?" arguement. And quite honestly there's not much else but some different colour schemes to counter that arguement. I've been debating this on NTFA forums (http://www.ntfa.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi?s=;act=ST;f=5;t=5738;st=0).
I've said it before - they're *totally different characters.* It *barely matters* with the Headmasters - they're still Cybertronians, and almost all their large bodies have the *same names* as America anyway. The only thing that *matters* in this equation is the names of their *heads,* and I don't even think their heads are referred to by name in the show! And even then, the names that are differnet, bar one are all blatant derivatives from the American anyway! But in Masterforce, the Headmasters and Powermasters are utterly different - they're coloured differently, they aren't Cybertronians, and *every single one of them* has a different name! They're *unutterably* different.

I mean, if it's good enough for a *Japanese book* like "Generations" lists the Headmasters as the same characters, but separates the American and Japanese incarnations of the Masterforce characters, then I think it's good enough for a DVD.

And this is for arguing later! Headmasters now, Masterforce when it matters! :)

Denyer
2005-05-16, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by The Original Chris
*unutterably* different.Evidently not, else no-one would be suggesting it. Same goes for anyone mangling the use of "ineffable".

If you give most people the choice, Masterforce will feature US names. Lander / Diver / Phoenix will be Landmine / Waverider / Cloudburst, etc. They've previously featured in US media. Ditto for Shuta, Cab and all the rest. The only bone of contention there is Nightbeat. The Seacons are also well-known, and emphatically don't combine into King Poseidon in the minds of most fans.

Originally posted by The Original Chris
the company is going to want to please the majority.The company has the choice of doing both by going to negligible effort. Not doing so represents a loss of sales. Those are fairly simple economics; you don't run a company by answering even five percent of customer enquiries "we know it's easy, but can't be bothered."

Chris McFeely
2005-05-16, 01:23 PM
If you give most people the choice, Masterforce will feature US names. Lander / Diver / Phoenix will be Landmine / Waverider / Cloudburst, etc. They've previously featured in US media. Ditto for Shuta, Cab and all the rest. The only bone of contention there is Nightbeat. The Seacons are also well-known, and emphatically don't combine into King Poseidon in the minds of most fans.
Well, I guess Masterforce can be put to poll when the time comes. Personally speaking, I actually *would* want the Pretenders and Seacons to have their American names, being essentially the same as their American counterparts, while the Powermasters and Headmasters would retain their Japanese names, as they're squishies in armour, not Cybertronians. But that's very fiddly and picky-choosy, so if I had to pick one of the other, I'd pick Japanese names. But that's just in the case of this series (man, I'll be glad for Victroy. None of these complications...).

Anyway, let's stick a pin in Masterforce for now. ^_^

The company has the choice of doing both by going to negligible effort. Not doing so represents a loss of sales. Those are fairly simple economics; you don't run a company by answering even five percent of customer enquiries "we know it's easy, but can't be bothered."
They certainly do have the choice. I'm not saying that they *won't* go for it, just that I don't know what the added cost is and whether or not it could be deciding in the matter. I think it's a good idea to use two tracks, then everyone's happy, but I don't speak for the opinions of company. I've put it to Ken. We just have to see what his view is on it.

Denyer
2005-05-16, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by The Original Chris
let's stick a pin in Masterforce for now. Let's not, because it has bearing on the currently proposed release. If Headmasters uses a naming convention, Masterforce is more likely to follow.

Besides, it'll be great to look forward to Siren, Hosehead and Minerva on the same team, and other such inanities. And there's no reason God Ginrai can't be Powermaster Optimus Prime—they're the same toy, and the toy with extra trailer has even been sold widely across the UK and America.

People see a design and think "same character", whether it's God Ginrai or Convoy. People will also bitch that Powermaster Optimus Prime is now a human, and the pretenders shrink and—

They have for years. Nip it in the bud whilst there's opportunity to put out a correct set.

Sixswitch
2005-05-16, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by Denyer

If you give most people the choice, Masterforce will feature US names. Lander / Diver / Phoenix will be Landmine / Waverider / Cloudburst, etc.

Because Japanese names often sound a bit crap to Western ears.

-Ss

Chris McFeely
2005-05-16, 01:54 PM
And there's no reason God Ginrai can't be Powermaster Optimus Prime.
Yeah, there is. Because Ginrai's not Optimus Prime. It's not even just a case of Japanese vs. American, as with the Headmasters (from either HM or MF), where the characters assume the role of their cross-Pacific counterparts and do not coexist with them,. Ginrai does coexist with Optimus Prime/Convoy. They can't be the same characters because they both exist in the same universe. Plus, Optimus Prime is not a human in armour. It doesn't make *sense* to change the names for the human characters in Masterforce, because they don't represent their American counterparts. Arguably, the same can be said of the Headmasters heads in "Headmasters," but their names are either identical to, or a derivative of, the original American ones in the first place.

People see a design and think "same character", whether it's God Ginrai or Convoy. People will also bitch that Powermaster Optimus Prime is now a human, and the pretenders shrink and—
They have for years. Nip it in the bud whilst there's opportunity to put out a correct set. [/B]
So, you're advocating that the names in Masterforce remain the same as the Japanese version, yes? That's what I'm saying should be done too. Even the characters who DO have established American counterparts (Pretenders, Seacons) are quite different from them (shrinking Pretenders, Seacons are drones). I just don't agree that just because Masterforce should do it, Headmasters should too.

Osku
2005-05-16, 02:27 PM
Edit: Heck, it seems to have taken over half an hour for this message to appear. ???

Look, I've noticed i'm in minority and I accept that the majority wants American names. I'm happy and grateful if we can get two subtitle tracks.

I don't have to pretend that the logic using American names in Headmasters and Japanese names in Masterforce is sound. You use American names now, they'll be used in Masterforce as well because "people want it that way".

Originally posted by The Original Chris
I've said it before - they're *totally different characters.* It *barely matters* with the Headmasters - they're still Cybertronians, and almost all their large bodies have the *same names* as America anyway.
4 of 11 have different names. I don't remember Targetmasters/Miraclemasters situation.

And I don't even think their heads are referred to by name in the show! And even then, in both cases, the names that are differnet, bar one are all blatant derivatives from the American anyway! But in Masterforce, the Headmasters and Powermasters are utterly different - they aren't Cybertronians, and *every single one of them* has a different name! They're *unutterably* different.
Names are similar with original headmasters, but concept wise

Headmasters:
(US) humanoid from planet Nebulon planet binary bonding with a Cybertronian robot
vs.
(J) smaller robot from planet Master controlling a bigger non-sentient robot body

Headmasters / Headmaster juniors
(US) humanoid from planet Nebulon planet binary bonding with a Cybertronian robot
vs.
(J) humanoid from planet Earth controlling a non-sentient robot body

Powermasters / Godmasters
(US) humanoid from planet Nebulon planet binary bonding with a Cybertronian robot
vs.
(J) humanoid from planet Earth controlling a non-sentient robot body

There's not much difference with how far the concepts are from each other. Headmasters juniors is propably the closest concept with their American counterparts. Or Targetmasters/Miraclemasters.

I mean, if it's good enough for a *Japanese book* like "Generations" lists the Headmasters as the same characters, but separates the American and Japanese incarnations of the Masterforce characters, then I think it's good enough for a DVD.
"Generations" also claims that there were 318 issues of UK comic. Simon Furman writes many things in the "Ultimate Guide" that aren't actually true.

"Generations" listing them as same characters doesn't change the fact that in Headmasters Chromedome isn't binary bonded to a Nebulan (pink or green) humanoid.

And this is for arguing later! Headmasters now, Masterforce when it matters! :)
If Metronome releases also Masterforce, the choices made now affects it as well.

Prime Maximus
2005-05-16, 03:21 PM
I'm down the middle on this one because as much as I would love to see these japanese cartoons using names I grew up on, I know the other part of me know these are different versions of the same characters.

Its japanese so the names should stay how they used them.

I'm still on the brink of purchasing these japanese versions but wish some real voice overs were done. I'd like the original characters from the original American version TF's to do the japanese versions but I know thats wishful thinking and probably won't work out the same.

Denyer
2005-05-16, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by The Original Chris
Yeah, there is. Because Ginrai's not Optimus Prime.Convoy isn't Optimus Prime. Convoy dies in the third episode of Headmasters, in fact. He demonstrably exists in a different universe to the American show Prime.

Originally posted by The Original Chris
you're advocating that the names in Masterforce remain the sameI'm advocating the names in all cases remain as they've been for years. If I were watching German audio TF episodes, I'd expect the names in English subs to reflect the German names being said; with Japanese audio I expect names to reflect the Japanese names being said.

It's as simple as: don't "translate" proper nouns in subtitles. That's a general thing in any film or TV show.

Chris McFeely
2005-05-16, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Denyer
Convoy isn't Optimus Prime. Convoy dies in the third episode of Headmasters, in fact. He demonstrably exists in a different universe to the American show Prime.
I just have to disagree on this. The Japanese just changed Optimus Prime's name to their version, Convoy when they translated the English language series. Now that we're translating the Japanese series, we're changing Convoy to OUR version, Optimus Prime. There's nothing more wrong or horrific or inaccurate about what we're doing that there was in what the Japanese did in the first place. Ginrai is a *lot* different to just a case of changing a name. It's a completely different physical character.

I'm advocating the names in all cases remain as they've been for years. If I were watching German audio TF episodes, I'd expect the names in English subs to reflect the German names being said; with Japanese audio I expect names to reflect the Japanese names being said.

It's as simple as: don't "translate" proper nouns in subtitles. That's a general thing in any film or TV show.

And it's not as if I even begrudge you that desire. I appreciate that some people want accuracy to the original Japanese. But I just can't promise you'll get it.

Chris McFeely
2005-05-16, 04:51 PM
You use American names now, they'll be used in Masterforce as well because "people want it that way".
Well, I think we can leave that up to the people to decide at the time.
4 of 11 have different names. I don't remember Targetmasters/Miraclemasters situation.
One of 'em's different, Blanker. And in his case (and in the case of the two of the four HM's), the names are cheap shortenings/derivatives of the American names (Wipe, Skull), which leaves me no trouble in thinking they should be given their US names. And the other two are the ones that I'm actually having *trouble* with, because I appreciate where people are coming from on this.

Names are similar with original headmasters, but concept wise
<snip for space>
There's not much difference with how far the concepts are from each other. Headmasters juniors is propably the closest concept with their American counterparts. Or Targetmasters/Miraclemasters.
Y'know, I agree. I don't dispute the basic similarity, or the difference from the US. So, then, I can't really explain *why* I feel differently about the Masterforce characters. Perhaps it is because they have different names. Perhaps it is because they are humans, not robots. Perhaps it is because they spend most of their time as humans, whereas the Headmasters characters spend most of their combined with their larger bodies. Perhaps it is because I find the Headmasters can be happily exchanged with their American counterparts, characterwise, while the Masterforce characters cannot. But we'll just have to wait and see what people want the DVD to be like when the time comes.

"Generations" also claims that there were 318 issues of UK comic.
Heh, well, I can't dispute that! :)

Simon Furman writes many things in the "Ultimate Guide" that aren't actually true.
Ack! Don't open up THAT can of worms for me! :D

If Metronome releases also Masterforce, the choices made now affects it as well. [/B]
Honestly? I don't really think they do. If the popular opinion for Masterforce is to give everyone their Japanese names, then the intro booklet for the set will explain why this is so.

Denyer
2005-05-16, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by The Original Chris
Ginrai is a *lot* different to just a case of changing a name. It's a completely different physical character. Convoy and Prime are different physical characters—one's dead. You don't get much more physically different...

Cartoon Prime and Comic Prime are also different physical characters. Things happened to each that didn't happen to other other, something that has Big Clue written all over it.

Originally posted by The Original Chris
The Japanese just changed Optimus Prime's name to their versionThey released a different series, which went on to have even fewer similarities with those released in other parts of the world. There are other changes throughout the series:

Some episodes were aired unmodified from their original American productions, while other episodes consisted of scenes from different shows mixed and matched into new stories.
http://www.digiserve.com/eescape/tf/japanese/Japanese-Guide.html

Broadly speaking, they tell a very similar overall story. They are not the same series. They include different episodes. Takara licensed and rewrote. They did not just change names.

Originally posted by The Original Chris
I appreciate that some people want accuracy to the original Japanese. But I just can't promise you'll get it.I'm not asking you to. I'm saying that some of the customer base will not buy something which is inaccurate, and deliberately inaccurate at that.

Originally posted by Osku
Simon Furman writes many things in the "Ultimate Guide" that aren't actually true.Which is why it's rarely a good idea to write a guide to a show on the basis of its pre-production notes, without actually watching it.

Chris McFeely
2005-05-16, 05:13 PM
Convoy and Prime are different physical characters—one's dead. You don't get much more physically different...
I just don't *see* how that makes Convoy any less Optimus Prime, just because one show took the story in another direction. We'll have to agree to disagree on this, 'cause I don't think either of us is going to change the other's opinion. :)

Some episodes were aired unmodified from their original American productions, while other episodes consisted of scenes from different shows mixed and matched into new stories.
http://www.digiserve.com/eescape/tf/japanese/Japanese-Guide.html
Incidentally, as I understand it, these were clips shows. But I could be wrong about that.

I'm not asking you to. I'm saying that some of the customer base will not buy something which is inaccurate, and deliberately inaccurate at that.
Well, the only way to please both sides is to have two tracks. And unfortunately... *kicks inbox* ...I have recieved no word from Ken today on whether or not that's in the realm of possibility.

EDIT!

Correction!

I have just this minute got an e-mail. Ken says two tracks will be too costly.

However, he does think that it's a tough call between the other two options, because he knows accuracy is a good thing, but also wants to give the majority what they want.

But here's another question he's tossing out at the same time. New art is being commissioned for the set, do the fans have any preference on the artist they'd like to see doing it?

Denyer
2005-05-16, 05:27 PM
Don't suppose he's prepared to talk figures? It would be interesting to know how much those commissioning the work get stiffed for an alternate set of subs containing the exact same timing and exact same text apart from a few search-and-replace actions.

Art? Not really fussed if the likelihood is that I won't be buying. Don F would be a fan favourite, though, and could be commissioned through Devil's Due if not directly. You probably don't want a cover too much at variance with what's on the animation.

Chris McFeely
2005-05-16, 05:42 PM
*smacks self for always hitting EDIT when he means to click QUOTE*

Originally posted by Denyer
[B]Don't suppose he's prepared to talk figures?
Heh, well, I doubt it, but I've asked. ^^;;

Osku
2005-05-16, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by The Original Chris

I have just this minute got an e-mail. Ken says two tracks will be too costly.

However, he does think that it's a tough call between the other two options, because he knows accuracy is a good thing, but also wants to give the majority what they want.

But here's another question he's tossing out at the same time. New art is being commissioned for the set, do the fans have any preference on the artist they'd like to see doing it?
Disappointing. :(

Cover art? Animation like style? I like Guido Guidi's art, and his style might fit this set.

Cliffjumper
2005-05-17, 03:19 AM
Anybody but Joe Grunt.

Yes, I've badgered AOL to work. Form an orderly line to shag me.

Chris McFeely
2005-05-17, 09:24 AM
Sidebar - I've just confirmed that the Headmasters' heads are *not* referred to by those individual names during the animated series (Ros, Gorter, etc). So that removes one problem, right there. :)

Osku
2005-05-18, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by Denyer
Don't suppose he's prepared to talk figures? It would be interesting to know how much those commissioning the work get stiffed for an alternate set of subs containing the exact same timing and exact same text apart from a few search-and-replace actions.
As it seems we're not going to get answer for that. Does anyone have info of the possible cost of adding the second subtitle track?

inflatable dalek
2005-05-18, 01:42 PM
Am I the only one who deosn't really care what the charecters call each other as it's fairly easy to work out who's who either way?

Prime Maximus
2005-05-18, 02:04 PM
When we're talking about voice overs and casting for the Japenese versions of these cartoons, then give me a call because for right now, I'm undecided on any of this.

Osku
2005-05-18, 09:27 PM
Originally posted by The Original Chris
Well, I guess Masterforce can be put to poll when the time comes. Personally speaking, I actually *would* want the Pretenders and Seacons to have their American names, being essentially the same as their American counterparts, while the Powermasters and Headmasters would retain their Japanese names, as they're squishies in armour, not Cybertronians. But that's very fiddly and picky-choosy, so if I had to pick one of the other, I'd pick Japanese names. But that's just in the case of this series (man, I'll be glad for Victroy. None of these complications...).
Just a little late thought about Victory...

You do know that there are several problematic characters there?
God Ginrai - Power Hi-Q perhaps?
Minerva

"Micromaster Rescue Squad"
Holi - Stakeout
Fire - Redhot
Border - Seawatch
Pipo - Fixit

Blacker - Gripper
Braver - Lightspeed
Laster - Flame

Black Shadow - Thunderwing (different colours though)
Blue Bacchus - Crossblades (different colours though)

And of course Dinoforce whose inner robots are same as with Monster Pretenders.

Chris McFeely
2005-05-19, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by Osku
You do know that there are several problematic characters there?
The only ones there that I even consider a problem are the Micromasters, on account of them being physically identical to their Western counterparts. Everyone else you've listed was either remoulded and/or recoloured, some of them with their parts removed, and, if nothing else, are far and away visually distinct from their American counterparts that they can - in my mind, anyway - keep their Japanese names.

As for the Masterforce characters, we'll just have to see how it goes, but I *really* don't *expect* people to vote for them - or for the human characters, at least - to be given their English names when that means giving Optimus Prime's name to a human truck driver.

Osku
2005-05-19, 12:07 PM
Note to self. Don't try to post humorous(ish) posts in English at night. :o

Ghirox
2005-05-19, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Chris McFeely
Also, to stop Joe Average (who forms the majority of the market) from going "Who in the blue hell is this "Convoy" they're nattering on about?" when they buy the series and don't recognise any names.

EX. "Who in the blue hell" make no sense when traslated in Italian (i'm italian), so my point is opposite: name must be the original japanese names, because characters, despite identical, are not the same, while phrases must be traslated to match the sense of the original phrases.
A note: Minerva is a male character (or two, counting his robot body and headmaster component) in the US continuity, instead of a girl with a transtector, and the US char have his vehicle form as a a regular Porsche (?), while Minerva's TT had been modified for medical rescue (backseat removed and replaced).

Chris McFeely
2005-05-19, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Osku
Note to self. Don't try to post humorous(ish) posts in English at night. :o
Ooh, er, ahem, sorry. ^^;; I've been taking all comments on this issue quite literally. I'm seriously asking anyone I can get my hands on about their opinions on it. Talked to guys at my comic shop today, going to poll everyone at my anime club at the weekend...
A note: Minerva is a male character (or two, counting his robot body and headmaster component) in the US continuity, instead of a girl with a transtector, and the US char have his vehicle form as a a regular Porsche (?), while Minerva's TT had been modified for medical rescue (backseat removed and replaced).
I'm aware. Which is why I'm strongly against changing the names (for the human characters, at least) in Masterforce.

Cyberstrike nTo
2005-06-01, 11:24 AM
According to Seibertron the UK Transformers: Headmasters and
TF:TM-Reconstructed are going to be region 0. Which any DVD player in the world can play them!
But remember with Seibertron.com take their new with a big grain of salt.

http://www.seibertron.com/news/view.php?id=5237

Thefallenone
2005-06-01, 11:54 AM
i think you mean a Fat truck load off salt Cyberstrike nTo

:D

Chris McFeely
2005-06-01, 12:01 PM
The Region 0 thing is news to me, but I can confirm that the rest of the article is true. I wouldn't actually be surprised if the discs WERE Region 0, as there's been quite a lot of interest from our Yankee cousins across the pond in importing this set, which certainly makes things a lot easier for them to do.

Denyer
2005-06-01, 01:57 PM
Certainly makes a lot of sense; in this case the product is both old and Japanese, which means the region-coding wouldn't be being used to protect a local monopoly on licensing for the product. Either that or if there's a US rights holder they may have been cut in on the deal.

Not that region-coding can be forced on manufacturers, as I understand it... it's usually used by a manufacturer or overall rights holder with a global footprint, to stagger releases.

Cyberstrike nTo
2005-06-01, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by The Original Chris
The Region 0 thing is news to me, but I can confirm that the rest of the article is true. I wouldn't actually be surprised if the discs WERE Region 0, as there's been quite a lot of interest from our Yankee cousins across the pond in importing this set, which certainly makes things a lot easier for them to do.


If any of the UK board members who plan or want to buy these discs.
Please confirm for on the other side of the pond if it's region 0 or not.

Dreadwing
2005-06-01, 08:29 PM
Why is everyone making such a big deal about the subtitles of the japanese show? Who cares! That article said the best news i have ever heard, Transformers: The Movie will be available in Widescreen!!! The movie in widescreen, WIDESCREEN! Thank Primus is all I can say. This is something that I will definatly have to import, unless its realesed in the states soon.

Denyer
2005-06-01, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by Dreadwing
That article said the best news i have ever heard, Transformers: The Movie will be available in Widescreen!!! The movie in widescreen, WIDESCREEN! There are versions of the print with a bit more animation to the edges that were used to make cinema reels. So it should look a bit more expansive, but won't be what we think of now as widescreen.

Chris McFeely
2005-06-01, 10:27 PM
Well, it will be full 16:9 widescreen, but it's not *true* widescreen, as in, it wasn't originally animated at that aspect ratio. The film's just been finagled into it (but not by chopping any picture off). Though unfortunately, it appears some scenes were *not* filmed in a manner that allowed for this alteration, so the aspect ratio will change to accomodate this. That's a bit... unusual, frankly, and clearly marks the product as a fan-only thing.

Cyberstrike nTo
2005-06-02, 11:13 AM
What about the NTSC/PAL standards?
Even if the DVDs are region 0 I still not sure if standard American DVD players and/or TV sets could play the UK dvds.