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Nevermore
2008-10-09, 08:55 AM
So, one of our Wiki's regular editors posts this on the old Wikia Wiki:
Transformers Wiki talk:Community Portal - Transformers Wiki - Teletraan I (http://transformers.wikia.com/index.php?title=Transformers_Wiki_talk:Community_Portal&curid=32563&diff=236808&oldid=236800)

I suspect what Mendel was pointing out was that there is no community on this wiki to make that decision, or object to it. So either a) the few members active here constitute a quorum, b) you wikia lot do. In either case there is a body that can accept or decline a proposal of reciprocal links. Such a decision needn't be permanent- if the community decided in the future and decided get rid of it (or add it,) they'd be free to do so.
You say 'leave the community here to decide,' but... you're pretty much it, aren't you? I mean, I don't see any editors in Recent Changes not also active on to TFWiki.net. (I might be missing someone, I'm vague on that sort of thing.)
I suggested reciprocal linking because I think it's the polite (and smart) thing to do, in both our cases.
I know at least one hardcore transfan who works seasonally on oil rigs- he'll come back in a couple weeks and be baffled; "Where did everybody go?"
As for you guys... I think you've dropped below the critical mass needed to sustain a community. That's happened before, the place was dead when Walky made it his pet cause in aught six. And people are more likely to find this site, to provide that spark of life, if we link to you.
(As blatantly spiteful as our deletion of many community-specific pages upon exodus was, the reasoned intent behind it was genuine; to give the wiki a fresh start- and maybe attract some of the editors who were put off by our way of doing things. But practically the first thing you did was RESTORE half of them, including the frelling POLICY pages-- and people were being given {{caption_bastard}} warnings and told "This is site policy" with no discussion of whether that policy should continue-- and all the editors who'd been put off by our community saw you enforcing the same rules... and they knew they weren't welcome. Despite significant schisms within Transfandom about this Wiki's approach to doing things, you managed to capture approximately none of the dissenting userbase when we left. (Maybe Rotty, I feel like I've seen him recently. I always liked Rotty...)
My point is- the group that left is not... replaceable. A good chunk are hardcores who've known one another since usenet in 1995. That is not a skill/knowledge/social base you can replace. We nuked all those community pages for a reason (other than giggling juvenile glee,) so that Wikia's Transformers community could become something else, so a new community could form, make it theirs and impose their own character on this wiki. Become something vital and different and complimentary to us-- maybe even something better. Instead this site is failing at being us.
Reciprical links wasn't a request for our benefit, it was an offer for your benefit. We'd prefer there was someplace valuable editors could go if they get banned on TFWiki.net instead of having their contributions vanish from the fandom. Twin Cities, each with its own character. As for your benefits... Google thinks we're one site. (Why why wouldn't it? The same week we appeared you changed your sitename to be the same as ours!) We are going to... uh... win. And while a link on our community portal page might not send many eyeballls your way in terms of quantity- the potential for capturing QUALITY editors through it-- people good enough to spark your own community, to give you a fighting chance-- is high.
But hey, if you want to come all "leave this place, never to return!" up at me, fine.
Proceed then, on your way to oblivion. (See you on page two of the Google search results!) -Derik 13:35, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

About five hours later, Derik was banned from the Wikia Wiki.
Block log - Transformers Wiki - Teletraan I (http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Log/block)

18:13, 8 October 2008 Sannse (Talk | contribs) blocked Derik (Talk | contribs) with an expiry time of 1 year (account creation disabled) ‎ (Your editing here is not in the best interests of this wiki. This includes bot edits to maintain deceptive templates that take people unexpectedly off-site)

"Deceptive templates"?
Neither Derik nor his (now also banned) bot Deceptitraan did such a thing.
Contributions - Transformers Wiki - Teletraan I (http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/Derik)
Contributions - Transformers Wiki - Teletraan I (http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Special:Contributions/Deceptitran)

So not only did Wikia ban him out of spite for stating the truth, they also completely fabricated a reason.

Cliffjumper
2008-10-09, 01:24 PM
INTERNET DRAMA IS EXCITING.

u4St9e7ZMco

Denyer
2008-10-09, 01:37 PM
Eh. I think anyone with nous assumed from the beginning that third-party hosting would lead to problems. Now it's community vs. community, it's Fakespark take two.

Chris McFeely
2008-10-09, 08:03 PM
Heh, turned out Derik actually DID do it. Set it up months in advance. He's like a criminal mastermind.

Jaynz
2008-10-09, 08:36 PM
Eh. I think anyone with nous assumed from the beginning that third-party hosting would lead to problems. Now it's community vs. community, it's Fakespark take two.

Nah, no one's asked me to fund the set-up this time. :P

Really, though, I don't see a lot of 'outside of wikia' people all that supportive of the wikia site. Some people (like me) gave them their chance to see what would happen, and they proved themselves... shall we say... unworthy.

Nevermore
2008-10-09, 09:03 PM
Heh, turned out Derik actually DID do it. Set it up months in advance. He's like a criminal mastermind.

So he made us look like idiots defending him and accusing Wikia of making up things which he actually DID. I feel used.

secretcode
2008-10-09, 09:10 PM
Honestly, it's just a ****ing Wiki. Hell, someone could post something completely insane and days later people will claim it's truth... Heh. Funny because that's what this situation is like.

And all this idiotic drama is just that. It's just constant bitching about the wiki's status. I thought post-move it'd end... Some people are never happy.

Denyer
2008-10-09, 09:45 PM
Heh, turned out Derik actually DID do it. Set it up months in advance. He's like a criminal mastermind.
Done what, exactly?

Wonder if there's anything that could be done by a bot that couldn't be trivially restored...

Chris McFeely
2008-10-10, 10:25 AM
Done what, exactly?

Programmed a sort of "time bomb" into the episode navigation template which, after a certain date, caused the links to change from the wikia wiki to TFWIKI.

Halfshell
2008-10-10, 01:22 PM
The cheeky scamp.

Cliffjumper
2008-10-10, 01:25 PM
I'm currently failing to see what this actually has to do with TF media anymore... Can someone set me up a "Bitchy gossip and other boring fandom shite" forum I can punt this into?

Denyer
2008-10-10, 03:17 PM
I'm inclined to think fandom projects file better under the Transformers heading than General Discussion.

Halfshell
2008-10-10, 03:37 PM
I'd think they'd fit even better under Fandom...

Denyer
2008-10-10, 03:44 PM
Once it's moving again, that's going back to one forum with thread title tagging.

Conventions and other big things really don't fit under a creative heading...

Cliffjumper
2008-10-10, 03:48 PM
I'm inclined to think fandom projects file better under the Transformers heading than General Discussion.

Yup... so maybe a sub folder of the title suggested? This is just people bitching about who did what at some other website... This isn't really about the material or even particularly about the Wiki itself anymore. I seem to remember kicking Damolisher in the teeth for turning a more general TF comic into a discussion about particular people and their actions within fandom, with that person again not around to see what people are bitching about. I'm failing to see how this is any different.

If people are desperate to bitch and piss about what a user on some other site is about (although aren't we kinda not meant to do this? Like the way we try not to bang on about Seibertron?), I think booting this thing to Fandom/Other Projects is a good idea... I just fail to see how the latest tart drama is particularly relevant to this forum. Discussion about the quality, usefulness and whatever of the Wikia itself is Transformers General Discussion*. Discussion of the Ace Faces behind it and whatever crazy tricks and pathetic turf wars they've got going on is Transformers Fandom Discussion.

There are at least four totally unrelated Ideon clips on YouTube I haven't used yet. :p ;)

* = did you just change that? Or am I reaching Claypool levels of moderating competence?

Halfshell
2008-10-10, 04:53 PM
Once it's moving again, that's going back to one forum with thread title tagging.

Once what's moving, what is?

Conventions and other big things really don't fit under a creative heading...

You realise that changing the forum name counts as cheating, right? And a tacit admission that you're losing the argument. ;)

Denyer
2008-10-10, 04:54 PM
Once what's moving
The creative forum / section.

I think booting this thing to Fandom/Other Projects is a good idea...
That forum's going to be exclusively creative works, with a specific focus on getting things onto the site.

did you just change that?
Yup. This was always intended as the 'catch-all' forum for TF related stuff. It got titled 'Media' to differentiate from the Toys and News forums, esp. as the former has its own specific function subforums -- things don't sort very well onto a linear tree model; hence the kitbashes link in Toys.

I'm failing to see how this is any different.
Starting threads on Raksha is dragging up shit that was mostly ancient before we got a real site started. We didn't block threads on the Seibertron store, and there was some discussion of the Allspark takeover when it happened IIRC. (Though sites were, in general, in their own little worlds and largely unaware of each other at the time.)

Cliffjumper
2008-10-10, 05:05 PM
This isn't TF-related anymore. It's people-related. It's only the last page it's wobbled off course on.

The Seibertron store stuff was different, as Ryan was ripping people off and being evasive about it and, IIRC, deleted threads and banning people for asking about it. Whatever pressure anyone could bring to bear was needed there; not the case here, though.

I really don't remember much discussion about the Allspark thing - we didn't have much of a membership overlap (as in active, rather than the people who sign up everywhere to aggressively protect 'their' [Seeker Name][Random Number] screen-name) - was it before my time?

A guy from another site who about 8 people here know to some tiny degree has sabotaged (in what sounds like a small, reversible way) what seems to be an obsolete and dying site. He may or may not have fibbed about doing it. I'm not really seeing how this is particularly relevant to Transformers discussion, or to Transformers Archive discussion.

Handily moving the goalposts and adding "Chat about... the fandom" to the description is an interesting move, though. I just want to know straight, basically - is petty open bitching about users on other sites okay? I'm not fussed either way, there's a bunch of twats I don't mind openly laying into for various nebulous things that have little or no impact on (or interest to) the people reading these forums. I'd just like to know where exactly we stand on this sort of thing.

Halfshell
2008-10-10, 05:11 PM
This isn't TF-related anymore. It's people-related.

Not even that anymore. It's devolved into a discussion about what does or doesn't constitute Transformers discussion.

Which definitely doesn't. That's what the Site Feedback (or whatever it's called this hour) forum is for.

Denyer
2008-10-10, 05:34 PM
I'd just like to know where exactly we stand on this sort of thing.
Personal judgement calls, same as always. There's been discussion of BotTalk, the fan club, stuff like 1 (http://tfarchive.com/community/showthread.php?t=32757) 2 (http://tfarchive.com/community/showthread.php?t=32758) 3 (http://tfarchive.com/community/showthread.php?t=29032) 4 (http://tfarchive.com/community/showthread.php?t=41203) and any amount of other stuff. Nor's staff here wandering off into conversation about what goes where exactly new.

Cliffjumper
2008-10-10, 05:43 PM
Personal judgement calls, same as always.

Right. Whose personal judgement calls? Because I know what mine is, and I think I've laid out a pretty good case as to why some guy getting banned from some another site isn't really what this topic or this folder is for, and why it sets a tricky precedent for us to follow.

Your judgement call seems to be that this is fine - I'm okay with that, you seem to make better judgement calls than me on a pretty regular basis 9this is why I haven't made my own personal call, and removed and locked the last couple of pages, possibly burying them in the Trivia forum for the encore... and, truth be told, for accuracy of filing). I'd just like laid out in reasonably solid terms when it's okay to bring some other site or board's internal strife over here for no readily apparent reason, and when it's not.

Denyer
2008-10-10, 05:53 PM
when it's okay to bring some other site or board's internal strife over here for no readily apparent reason, and when it's not.
Broadly: where it involves official organisations or other not-fan-only ones. 3H / OTFCC / Fun Publications / Wikia / etc. are businesses with a profit model revolving around TF fans. As was the Seibertron store. As are the (freelance as well as in-company) TF creators you were singling out in the lattermost thread.

This isn't a broad pass for people to come and whinge about their treatment on other boards, slag off other fans, etc. -- though again, there's been some discussion of things like that here at times.

edit: Wikia's handling is in some ways like that of ezBoard (Re: the Allspark) a good many years ago.

Cliffjumper
2008-10-10, 05:57 PM
So, then, discussion of this specific user who, if I'm following correctly, made a likely-reversible salt-the-Earth attack on an old site which seems to be being rapidly disowned by online fandom and got banned from it (which is a little bit like us banning, say, Cloudstrifer), has moved beyond that, then?

I'm really not trying to be awkward here, or kick up a fuss. I'm just struggling to follow this at all, and I'm meant to be moderating it. Well, when no proper mods are around and there's absolutely no other option, anyway.

Denyer
2008-10-10, 06:08 PM
Discussion got to: organisation being apparently unreasonable towards a fan, oh wait, new information, they're actually justified. And then vanished under meta about this board (which can be stuck in the Site forum if it bothers anyone.)

Cliffjumper
2008-10-10, 06:14 PM
That'd be the organisation who, again if I'm following correctly, no longer have anything to do with the 'active' Wiki? This is what I'm currently struggling to grasp... this guy left the old Wikia-ran Wiki along with basically everyone else, and started working on the Walkie-ran Wiki, yes? He's then banned from the old one he left after the event - even if it was unjustified, I'm not following how that's particularly anyone's problem. Like I say, I could have missed something, but if that's what's happened I'm not seeing why it was reported here in the first place.

Denyer
2008-10-10, 06:18 PM
That'd be the organisation who, again if I'm following correctly, no longer have anything to do with the 'active' Wiki?
This'd be the organisation that's hosting, helping to operate, and currently taking a direct role in administrating a Transformers wiki. Of which there are now two major ones.

The treatment of fans by Wikia is germane. The treatment of fans on TFwiki.net, a fan site that isn't being run for profit, isn't. Is that clearer on where the distinction I'm making is?

(edit: More generally, the treatment of fans on forums operated by a license-holder such as Fun Pub or IDW -- by agents of those holders -- may also be.)

Jaynz
2008-10-10, 06:24 PM
Sorry, Denyer, I'm not going to buy it. As has been said, there have been numerous threads about other fan sites and issues over the years here, and saying "transformers.wikia.com" is fair game but "tfwiki.net" is not, I don't feel, remotely justifiable. After all, both sites take donations, etc... it's just one has a professional host and the other doesn't.

That said, I'm going on record as saying that both sides are acting like utter prats, but one side is far far more vulnerable legally than the other. You got a bunch of amateur fans deciding to vandalize a professional site for the sole purpose of hurting their business - and admitting it openly? That's just plain stupid.

Denyer
2008-10-10, 06:31 PM
saying "transformers.wikia.com" is fair game
Specifically, the actions of Wikia employees.

it's just one has a professional host and the other doesn't.
One has a business model, the other's like any other fan site that runs ads and accepts donations to cover hosting.

there have been numerous threads about other fan sites and issues over the years here
And doubtless will be in time to come. We generally don't get into "waah, I got kicked by [x] fan site" and that (i.e. bitching about specific other fans) isn't what this clarification is intended to cover.

Cliffjumper
2008-10-10, 06:38 PM
Of which there are now two major ones.

Are there, though? I've failed to see much of a change on the old one (admittedly I haven't been actively checking it) - the new one seems to have generally generated enough fan goodwill for it to start being most fans' TF Wiki of choice, the old one doesn't seem to be moving much at all.

The treatment of fans by Wikia is germane. The treatment of fans on TFwiki.net, a fan site that isn't being run for profit, isn't. Is that clearer on where the distinction I'm making is?

I think so, though I had to look up 'germane'. I'm not seeing how their treatment of one ex-editor is particularly germane, however - never mind that it turned out that they did the right thing, they banned someone from their site - not swathes of people, not anyone who didn't toe the line, just one guy, as it turns out for some stupid vandalism. I strongly feel this isn't the place for discussion of that sort of situation, even before this chap turning out to have done it became clear.

Jaynz
2008-10-10, 06:46 PM
And doubtless will be in time to come. We generally don't get into "waah, I got kicked by [x] fan site" and that (i.e. bitching about specific other fans) isn't what this clarification is intended to cover.

I'm just saying that if it's actually newsworthy for the general purposes of the fandom, the difference between being a 'pro' site, and a 'fan-run' site shouldn't be that much of a determinant factor on who gets covered. Also, sure, we can be more forgiving of a fan-site than a pro-site, since the standards are different, but that's not the same as saying 'Site #1 gets a free pass' and 'Site #2 gets reamed over the coals'.

Now, this issue? To me it's not really that newsworthy. It's more of the petty sniping common with splits, so I'm largely in a 'who cares' mode with it.

The difference here that isn't yet manifest (and let's hope that it doesn't) in that wikia may decide to sue, or even prosecute, Walky and/or others for the actions of the staff there. At that point, I think we can all agree it would be newsworthy for all of us.

I just disagree that the determining factor in discussion should have anything much to do with if a site is 'pro' or not.

Denyer
2008-10-10, 06:48 PM
Are there, though?
The Wikia-controlled one has much the same huge amount of content, is open to fans for editing, etc. A lot of the previous community seem to have checked out, but the site is still being operated (and is indeed the primary TF wiki on the web as far as search engines -- and corresponding traffic, one would suspect -- are concerned.)

I'm not seeing how their treatment of one ex-editor is particularly germane, however
For much the same reason FP kicking fans without good reason would be; they're an organisation that exists to profit from fans of things. (And Wikia is specifically a for-profit (http://money.cnn.com/magazines/business2/business2_archive/2007/03/01/8401010/index.htm) enterprise, not a charitable foundation like Wikipedia.)

Denyer
2008-10-10, 06:55 PM
I just disagree that the determining factor in discussion should have anything much to do with if a site is 'pro' or not.
No-one's suggesting a BotTalk approach to discussion of fan sites. They come up in conversation all the time; and indeed that previous sentence. Merely that this isn't a soapbox for protesting against the admin styles of other fan-run places.

When a site / organisation exists for the purpose of profiting from fans, it's a far more legitimate target for criticism.

Cliffjumper
2008-10-10, 08:42 PM
The Wikia-controlled one has much the same huge amount of content, is open to fans for editing, etc. A lot of the previous community seem to have checked out, but the site is still being operated (and is indeed the primary TF wiki on the web as far as search engines -- and corresponding traffic, one would suspect -- are concerned.)[/b]

Aye, but with what seems like a fair chunk of fandom behind the new one, that'll most likely change. It's difficult to see at the moment as the split happened fairly recently, so some pages are identical and the oldest has a big head-start on Google. However, one is current and one is - to all intends and purposes - dead.

See, this thread illustrates pretty well why I think it's an area we should steer clear of. Someone's made what turns out to be a completely erroneous statement about the conduct of another site, formed largely out of prejudice against said site ("They've pulled this kinda crap before!" is not a reason to leap in two-footed, that's like slamming AHM issues when the solicitation covers go up...), it's turned out in this one case said site turned out to be acting in... a way that is understandable (by the same token that I don't see why it's interesting that they've banned one person who doesn't use the site anymore, I don't see why they actually bothered banning someone who'd left the building). None of that particularly needed to be discussed here.

Denyer
2008-10-10, 10:20 PM
I don't see why it's interesting that they've banned one person who doesn't use the site anymore,
I'm basically repeating myself if I go over why I do.

one is - to all intends and purposes - dead
Which you seem to be basing solely on editing activity. It's going to take a very long time indeed and/or the removal of the content from Wikia before the first wiki stops being the first thing fans stumble on for a wide variety of search terms. It's also a going concern with open registration.

None of that particularly needed to be discussed here.
Nor the vast majority of things that are. I don't see that as a good reason to put those things off-limits, or to not have a forum. The other people having the conversation that's now behind a bunch of posts about the legitimacy of that conversation were playing nice, insofar as a specific individual was being named. And learning something from it about leaping in.

Speaking of learning, I'm still curious as to why whatever this thing was doesn't show on editing histories.

Cliffjumper
2008-10-10, 10:54 PM
I'm basically repeating myself if I go over why I do.

And I probably will be if I say it again... I think we've laid out enough here that what I'm afraid of (people using this as a precedent for a general bitchfest) is clearly shown to be not on, plus there's the good cautionary example of trying not to believe the first thing you hear on these matters, or just the thing you want to be true.

As said, in this case I defer to your judgement call. Hopefully there won't be the need anymore and people can rediscover Transformers discussion as opposed to Transformers fandom discussion. Stranger things have happened. Well, I can think of three, anyway.