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Cliffjumper
2009-02-27, 10:36 PM
Okay, I really, really like the ethos and designs of this series. But every time I try watching the first film, the opening confuses the piss out of me and I find it pretty hard to concentrate. Plus the lead looks like Storm when she was reverted to a kid by the Siege Perilous, which wouldn't be a problem if the character wasn't male. Is this worth me persevering with, or should I just get a toy of the Turn A and leave it at that?

Transformer Kamen
2009-03-04, 12:40 AM
I've never seen the films, but this remains one of my favorite Gundam series. It can get fairly slow at times, and fairly preachy, and sometimes things make no sense (or are just sodding incredible coincidences--some of this could be the dub I had though). Cleverly, the main character's androgyny actually plans a role in the story.

Plus, the main mech has a handlebar mustache!

Cliffjumper
2009-03-04, 12:53 AM
That was one bit that made me smile - they openly refer to the thing as having a moustache. I've made it about 40 minutes in so far...

Knightdramon
2009-03-07, 10:12 AM
I'm just watching the series as we're speaking, not the movies. Way too compressed for my taste.

Let me know if you're in need of the episodes.

So far it's not bad, definitely intriguing, but a tad boring. Plus it's the last Gundam series Tomino directed, which is a good or a bad thing, depending on how you look at it.

Cliffjumper
2009-03-07, 10:31 AM
I've got sidetracked onto Zeta since... I'm watching the two compilation films, or trying too - the opening of the first one just leaves me so disorientated that I'm rattled and confused within about 10 minutes. I know it'd be very old fashioned, but it could really do with a big chunk of narrator. I intend to persevere with the films, then think about whether I'm likely to watch the episodes...

I do like the Turn A itself, though. Very unusual design, but very effective.

Knightdramon
2009-03-08, 06:37 AM
Yeah, Turn A and the rest of the mechas so far have what appears to be wrinkled metal skin, which I find very original for a gundam series. Sid Mead or whomever designed the mechas, the guy who did Bladerunner mecha designs if I'm not mistaken.

I got confused watching the first episode by itself, I can't imagine watching a compilation movie of it.

Watched up to ep 6 so far, gets really good at 4-6, feels like watching an RPG game :lol:

Cliffjumper
2009-03-08, 12:40 PM
Yeh, I'm seriously tempted to fast-forward the first ten minutes and just try to work out what I missed as and when it comes up.

And yes, it was Syd Mead who did the designs. It's interesting mainly because if someone was to somehow invent a Gundam RIGHT NOW it'd probably be all curves like the Turn A, rather than the boxier 1980s designs...

Knightdramon
2009-03-08, 06:25 PM
Actually, the last gundams to be designed [the 00 crew] are designed by different artists than the usual Kunio Okawara [who has pretty much designed everything bar suits like the Hyuaku Shiki], but still feature traits all the way from the original.

Perhaps it's due to the fact that Turn A and the rest of the series original mecha were designed by a westerner? [He's surely not Japanese...right? :swirly:]

Cliffjumper
2009-03-12, 08:59 PM
It could be... it's quite steam-punk in a way. I do love the whole Turn A aesthetic, in a weird way it reminds me of Wings of Honneamise.

I'm currently weighing up whether to buy Turn A or ZZ on DVD... anyone know what the subs on the 'Perfect Collection' releases of either are? I know where to download both with fan subs, but I'm more likely to watch them on disc than off the hard-drive - but if the subtitles are confusing, I won't have the advantage of knowing the series like I did with the dodgy Ideon DVD I bought...

Cliffjumper
2009-04-02, 08:26 PM
Seen the first three episodes of Turn A Gundam now... I think I love this series! It's difficult to describe what's so great about it, but it's just really nice.

I like the way the White Doll wasn't shoe-horned into the first episode, so everything just unfolded nicely, unlike in the original or Zeta where it was a bit "Let's get the Gundam out! Right, now let's backtrack for three episodes and introduce everyone". The pacing so far is great.

And thank God - a young Gundam pilot who isn't a brat with a chip on his shoulder! Loran's nice and laid back, without being a wet blanket.

The attack on Nocsis/Vicinity City actually really reminded me of Ideon in a round-about way - the total mismatch and the casual destruction of it all. I like the WaDoms as well - a bit mad, very Buff Clan actually.

And the music... the music is beautiful.

My only worry is that both full Gundam series I've seen so far have been dynamite for a dozen episodes, then had a seriously dodgy middle section and never quite got back up to speed. Plus side, though, is that this one starts off on Earth, so there's hopefully going to be no momentum-sapping mid-series journey to the place to contend with...

Transformer Kamen
2009-04-02, 09:14 PM
Aside from, well, pretty much all the characters in 8th MS Team, Loren is definately my favorite protagonist. It really helps that their isn't any Newtype junk, and his success in battle pretty much derives from the superior quality of his suit. The inexplicable combat abilities amateur piolets show in other series has always bugged me.

I don't want to spoil anything for you, but I will say that Turn A is more slowly paced than other Gundam series, but I think it keeps a pretty steady momentum throughout.

Cliffjumper
2009-04-02, 09:28 PM
I'm cool with slow building, as long as the pacing is fairly consistent. As I say, my problem with Gundam and Zeta Gundam was that the slow bits came bang in the middle of the series after they'd cranked it up early on.

I'm not sure what my problem with Newtypes is... I have no problem with the concept (it's no harder to swallow than the Ide, after all) - I think it's more the way they're used, either as an excuse for some kid being better than trained pilots, or just as a cheap way to amp up some antagonists.

Cliffjumper
2009-04-19, 06:34 PM
Ohhhhhhh, I love this series so much! You've got to totally respect any series that has the lead protagonist cross-dress and pull the badass antagonist. Plus there's an episode about capturing a cow. Plus the Kapools are great - comedy rolling mobile suits, I love it.

I'm up to episode 8 now, really, really enjoying this one.

bowspearer
2009-04-22, 02:32 PM
I honestly gave up on this after the 5th episode, the series moves too slowly, is semi-interesti9ng at best, has characterisations which leave you feeling indifferent and there's no tension or sense of escalation to it at all.

Cliffjumper
2009-04-22, 02:36 PM
Which obviously you'd know from seeing 5 episodes :)

If it moved too slowly to start off with for you, that's fine, but it's probably best to keep bigger generalisations to one side, yeh?

bowspearer
2009-04-22, 03:10 PM
Which obviously you'd know from seeing 5 episodes :)

If it moved too slowly to start off with for you, that's fine, but it's probably best to keep bigger generalisations to one side, yeh?

I was giving observations on the series based on the early episodes. The problem is that usually with most Gundam series, theres some tragedy or heavily addictive intrigue that's taking place in that period which usually shocks you enough that you're usually still reeling while the buildup takes place and dying to see more.

Turn-A doesn't seem to do that at all so while the buildup is happening, there's no real hook to keep you there, compared to the likes of Wing, SEED, X and Zeta, this just doesn't have enough to leave me wanting more.

Transformer Kamen
2009-04-22, 03:55 PM
I was giving observations on the series based on the early episodes.

Yet you're early post indicates that you've seen only the first five episodes, in which case you really can't generalize to the rest of the series.

Without giving too much away, I think the series does pick up as it goes on. The slowness in the beginning helps to lay down the political framework between the Moon and Earth races, which it needs to do since this is not the same "fight for independence" that most of the other Gundam series' have as their political backdrop.


And really, the fact that it is so different from other Gundam series is what makes Turn A interesting to me. It tries something new, and is pretty successful at it, I think.

Cliffjumper
2009-04-22, 04:04 PM
Yeh, I do like the difference. The episodes I've seen so far are great, and it seems to be getting better - the problems with most other Gundam series I've seen is that they start off very well and then drop off badly because they haven't bothered putting the framework in first (for example, Zeta throws us straight into the action, and the has to back-track while it lays out the AEUG... of course, it then drops the ball through repetitive antagonists and the needless addition of Axis to the mix, plus turning the Newtype bullshit up to 11... thus what starts off as an interesting military saga turns into an angsty hippy shitfest).

Biggest hook for me has been Loran so far. It's really good fun to have a Gundam series where the lead isn't a spiteful, selfish little prick.

Turn A could still go spectacularly tits up, but what I'm going to do is watch the whole series before making any sweeping judgements.

bowspearer
2009-04-23, 08:25 PM
Biggest hook for me has been Loran so far. It's really good fun to have a Gundam series where the lead isn't a spiteful, selfish little prick.

Kira, Heero and Garrod were spiteful and selfish little pricks?

Turn A could still go spectacularly tits up, but what I'm going to do is watch the whole series before making any sweeping judgements.

I'm open to checking out the rest of it, but I'm also realistic in the sense that it set out to achieve the impossible.

It's supposed to lay down a timeline that puts all the UC, AC, AW and FC storylines into a single timeline (can't remember if it goes AC then AW or the other way around in that order), however as Endless Waltz finishes in such a way that no Gundam is said to have ever been seen again, it makes G Gundam following Wing Gundam an impossibility- so Turn-A doesn't really work in that regard.

Cliffjumper
2009-04-23, 08:35 PM
Who the Hell is Kira? I'm doing the crazy thing of comparing this to the Gundam series I've actually seen.

From what I can gather, the timeline thing is fanboy nonsense either way. The series seems to do a little of what Beast Wars did for G1 - just take various elements without hamstringing the show by tying it to one continuity. I believe tying all the Gundam continuties together was an initial plan , but was largely dropped (as were plans to definitively tie Ideon in with Gundam) aside from a few fairly minor references like the Dark Age mobile suits just happening to be Zakus and Kapools. You could probably come up with some sort of mad timeline if that's your bag, but the show seems to be completely independant of the need to do so (notably the main leftover Dark Age MS is the Turn A, which is obviously brand new to the metaseries).

bowspearer
2009-04-23, 10:15 PM
Who the Hell is Kira? I'm doing the crazy thing of comparing this to the Gundam series I've actually seen.

The main hero of Gundam SEED.

[QUOTE=Cliffjumper;652553]From what I can gather, the timeline thing is fanboy nonsense either way. The series seems to do a little of what Beast Wars did for G1 - just take various elements without hamstringing the show by tying it to one continuity. I believe tying all the Gundam continuties together was an initial plan , but was largely dropped (as were plans to definitively tie Ideon in with Gundam) aside from a few fairly minor references like the Dark Age mobile suits just happening to be Zakus and Kapools. You could probably come up with some sort of mad timeline if that's your bag, but the show seems to be completely independant of the need to do so (notably the main leftover Dark Age MS is the Turn A, which is obviously brand new to the metaseries).

In that case I take it you haven't seen either episode 43 of Turn-A or Endless Waltz- both directly contradict each other.

Cliffjumper
2009-04-23, 10:26 PM
...and?

bowspearer
2009-04-24, 12:29 AM
And it means that Tomino failed with what he set out to do. Then again one look at the Zeta movies compared to the series shows that it wasn't the first time that happened...

Cliffjumper
2009-04-24, 12:54 AM
...set out to do? The whole series isn't dependant on a wetbrained fan fantasy.

bowspearer
2009-04-24, 01:47 AM
What fantasy? Tomino set out originally to tie everything together into one continuity. Not to mention that the fact that we're having this conversation, clearly means that you're obviously not upto episode 43 because all you're doing right now is own goaling yourself. When you see the episode, that fact will be clear as day to you.

The in terms of the timelines is that it goes UC, then between it and CC, Wing, X and G all take place, followed by the "moonlight butterfly" incident. The idea was meant to be that it was literally the last in the series of Gundam shows at that time, however that soon changed to it being representative of all that has come before it. The big problem with the combined timeline, even without Tominos reasoning, is the the Sandrock is shown as a part of Turn-A's past (the "Dark History") in epidoe 43, yet the narrator states at the end of Endless Waltz, that from that time on, mobile suits, particularly Gundams, no longer existed.

Dead Man Wade
2009-04-24, 02:10 AM
Not to mention that the fact that we're having this conversation, clearly means that you're obviously not upto episode 43 because all you're doing right now is own goaling yourself.

Just a heads up: Assuming someone's knowledge of something is not as far along as yours (whether that's the case or not) is just asking to escalate the situation into name-calling and flaming. I don't want to lock the thread, as there's been good conversation going, but I will if it reaches that point.

bowspearer
2009-04-24, 02:16 AM
Just a heads up: Assuming someone's knowledge of something is not as far along as yours (whether that's the case or not) is just asking to escalate the situation into name-calling and flaming. I don't want to lock the thread, as there's been good conversation going, but I will if it reaches that point.


You mean such as comments like this:

The whole series isn't dependant on a wetbrained fan fantasy.

I'm totally open to a relaxed discussion on this when and other things, but it becomes difficult when you have someone else, and a mod no less, responding to fair criticisms on something with the veiled equivalent of "U R TEH FANBOI SUK" ;).

Dead Man Wade
2009-04-24, 02:22 AM
Missed that.

Anyway, the last part, about closing the thread if things continue to go downhill, was a blanket statement.

Transformer Kamen
2009-04-24, 02:29 AM
What fantasy? Tomino set out originally to tie everything together into one continuity.

Well, how about the fact that Gundam Wing, G. Gundam, and so forth supposedly take place in a totally different reality from Mobile Suit Gundam? It's really rather ridiculous to even consider that every Gundam series takes place across one linear time line.

As for episode 43 (contains the "shocking" truth of the Dark History), although images from other Gundam Series are shown, the only descriptor given is that a war in space took place during the Universal Century over the course of a hundred years. In other words, while we the viewers recognize that these images are from different series, the characters in the show merely see images from a continuous historical standpoint. And there is no in-show reason to assume that these events couldn't have all happened during the war, considering the time frame. Basically, it you may be confusing fankwank for fact. :p

From that, I'd say that, if what you claim about Tomino's intentions are true, he succeeded, albeit in a conceptual rather than literal sense . And even, if he did mean it in a literal sense (which I think would be ridiculous), I don't see how that really matters, aside from being nonsensical. The point of the story comes through quite well, regardless.

Also, could you clear something up for me? In your first post you said that you "gave up" after the fifth episode. I assumed that to mean "stopped watching". So, have you, in fact, watched the series all the way through?

bowspearer
2009-04-24, 03:21 AM
Well, how about the fact that Gundam Wing, G. Gundam, and so forth supposedly take place in a totally different reality from Mobile Suit Gundam? It's really rather ridiculous to even consider that every Gundam series takes place across one linear time line.

I don't ever recall saying that UC, AC, FC and AW weren't all different continuities, but the fact remains that the CC storyline did in fact try to make them all into different eras of the one continuity.

As for episode 43 (contains the "shocking" truth of the Dark History), although images from other Gundam Series are shown, the only descriptor given is that a war in space took place during the Universal Century over the course of a hundred years. In other words, while we the viewers recognize that these images are from different series, the characters in the show merely see images from a continuous historical standpoint. And there is no in-show reason to assume that these events couldn't have all happened during the war, considering the time frame. Basically, it you may be confusing fankwank for fact. :p

How does the closing line from Endless Waltz ammount to fanwank?

From that, I'd say that, if what you claim about Tomino's intentions are true, he succeeded, albeit in a conceptual rather than literal sense . And even, if he did mean it in a literal sense (which I think would be ridiculous), I don't see how that really matters, aside from being nonsensical. The point of the story comes through quite well, regardless.

My point is that the plot line is completely contradictory, as it puts a Gundam continuity in its past which according to the story itself (Endless Waltz), cannot have Gundams in its future. Also considering that this series was done by Tomino, it effectively ammounts to some very sloppy writing.

Also, could you clear something up for me? In your first post you said that you "gave up" after the fifth episode. I assumed that to mean "stopped watching". So, have you, in fact, watched the series all the way through?

That's correct. However I've been in discussions before on other forums regarding Turn-A where the meshing of continuities came up. Also I find that MAHQ makes for a handy resource ;).

Cliffjumper
2009-04-24, 06:49 AM
Tomino didn't have much to do with Gundam Wing (relatively speaking). TBH, if we're doing the fanboy continuity angle, any clashes are resolved by Turn A simply retconning the earlier material, the same way that Encoutners in Space or the 08th retcon things.


I maintain that from what I've heard so far (bearing in mind that I don't believe reading badly written plot summaries is any sort of substitute for watching the episode... MAHQ's Ideon guide is riddled with errors, so I'd be very hesitant to put too much stock in their summaries) that the combining continuities or whatever thing sounds like a very, very minor aspect of the series. Tomino surely set out to create an entertaining Gundam series first and foremost, and if Turn A functions on its' own terms, it doesn't really matter whether it fails to tie together the different continuities (cf. Beast Wars).

bowspearer
2009-04-24, 08:56 AM
Tomino didn't have much to do with Gundam Wing (relatively speaking). TBH, if we're doing the fanboy continuity angle, any clashes are resolved by Turn A simply retconning the earlier material, the same way that Encoutners in Space or the 08th retcon things.[QUOTE]

The same could be said of X, mind you I'm not Tomino has displayed a certain dgree of arogance in the past (some of his dialogue choices in Zeta for example such as the initial encounter between Kamille and Jerrid) so it didn't really surprise me when I learned from this issue with Turn-A. The problem is that slotting Wing into anything as something which preceeded it is a bit more than a simple retcon. The series ends by stating that mobile suits were never seen again (check Endless Waltz for the exact wording), so to fly in the face of that is a bit of a step above a minor retcon.

[QUOTE=Cliffjumper;652655]I maintain that from what I've heard so far (bearing in mind that I don't believe reading badly written plot summaries is any sort of substitute for watching the episode... MAHQ's Ideon guide is riddled with errors, so I'd be very hesitant to put too much stock in their summaries)

Weird, their Gundam and macross summaries are right on the mark.

that the combining continuities or whatever thing sounds like a very, very minor aspect of the series.

Tomino surely set out to create an entertaining Gundam series first and foremost, and if Turn A functions on its' own terms, it doesn't really matter whether it fails to tie together the different continuities (cf. Beast Wars).

Actually that depends on whether you're talking about post-depression Tomino or "I hate the world" Tomino.

His post depression stuff is brilliant, but his work during his depression often fails in that regard. Don't get me wrong, Tomino has produced some brilliant work, but sadly during his period of depression, it often doesn't cut it. Sadly, much like the Zeta series (the movies are a VERY different story), I find myself feeling nothing for the characters of Turn-A.

Cliffjumper
2009-04-24, 09:10 AM
How to do you know their Gundam summaries are fine when you haven't seen Turn A? This sort of thing seems to be exactly the stuff they fall down on due to a "say what you see" style (that, incidentally, is hell to read... if you want to find out what happens, why not watch the series?).

I haven't seen the episode in question, obviously, but it's probably worth bearing in mind that you haven't either. Transformers Kamen's post is probably the most reliable, and the Wing flashback seems to be as much an easter egg as anything else. The relation to the plot of Turn A seems to broadly be "there were mobile suits before, and they were lost"; any way this slots into the overall meta series is a bonus, and if you're allowing that it's not seamless to override everything else in the series... well, I pity you.

Transformer Kamen
2009-04-24, 11:33 AM
I don't ever recall saying that UC, AC, FC and AW weren't all different continuities, but the fact remains that the CC storyline did in fact try to make them all into different eras of the one continuity.

...And do you have an official source stating this? If not, I find it very hard to believe that anyone would seriously attempt such a thing, as it is blatantly absurd.



How does the closing line from Endless Waltz ammount to fanwank?

I was referring to the images presented in the episode (Turn A, 43) as fanwank. Or an Easter Egg, if you prefer. Akin to the opening of Transformers: Animated, which shows images from the original Transformers series. To take that analogy further, TFA also uses those images as history for its continuity, but TFA and G1 clearly do not take place in the same Universe. The images are merely fanwank, just as in Turn A.



My point is that the plot line is completely contradictory, as it puts a Gundam continuity in its past which according to the story itself (Endless Waltz), cannot have Gundams in its future. Also considering that this series was done by Tomino, it effectively ammounts to some very sloppy writing.


Yes, I understand what you are trying to argue. And my argument is not to disagree that putting all the series in a row is ridiculous, which it clearly is. Rather I'm trying to convince you that a) that is not Turn A's major purpose and/or b) even if it were it's a pretty shitty reason to dislike the entire series.

For point a): Give me some official sources stating supporting your claim rather than speculation that you've heard elsewhere.

For b): Please watch the series, then base your opinion on the plot as a whole rather than hearsay.

Cliffjumper
2009-05-11, 08:45 PM
Up to just after midway

Gavane's just got nuked the Hell up, which was a surprise...

Bloody loving the series so far. Loran's so likeable... I was hugely impressed by the extent they went to with Dianna and Kihel as well, that had to be a dozen episodes with them swapped. And I love Harry's crazy undercover clothes - he seems to just wear those giant shades for the hell of it, which is great.

I must get a model Kapool as well - those things are great, I love the way they move, rolling around with their big flappy arms.

I love how steady the plot and characterisation has been so far as well - no sudden jolts or anything, just everything and everyone unfolding nicely.

Cliffjumper
2009-05-16, 08:30 PM
Christ almighty, the Japanese like their spoilers don't they?

Next episode - Guin sides with Gingham!, episode title "Guin's Betrayal"!

Put me off a bit for the night, that did, but I'm still seriously enjoying. Plus the battle scenes are getting awesome - Harry taking out those four Mirahoo [sp] was mental.

Having seen the sheer abstract nature of the Dark History playback, where only the Universal Century is mentioned in dialogue and other stuff is just the briefest flashes of contextless mobile suits, I find the idea that someone would let that spoil the series for them doubly flabbergasting.

Cliffjumper
2009-05-17, 08:27 PM
Oh God, that was so beautiful. Stuff Zeta, Wing and everything else up your backside - if something else clashes with this on some continuity issue ro whatever, that something else doesn't deserve to exist. That was one of the most charming, moving series I've ever watched, coming very close to Ideon. The epilogue had me grinning like a fool.