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zigzagger
2010-01-27, 12:23 AM
A 5-part mini-series starring the Autobot special ops unit, the Wreckers. By Nick Roche and James Roberts.

This is your all purpose Transformers: Last Stand of the Wreckers #1 reaction and discussion thread. Tell us what you thought.

Out January 27.

Preview @ Comic Book Resources (http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=preview&id=4311&disp=table).

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/6555/lsotw1page1.th.jpg (http://img121.imageshack.us/i/lsotw1page1.jpg/)http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/3593/lsotw1page2.th.jpg (http://img707.imageshack.us/i/lsotw1page2.jpg/)http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/4687/lsotw1page3.th.jpg (http://img121.imageshack.us/i/lsotw1page3.jpg/)http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/3788/lsotw1page4.th.jpg (http://img251.imageshack.us/i/lsotw1page4.jpg/)http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/2866/lsotw1page5.th.jpg (http://img706.imageshack.us/i/lsotw1page5.jpg/)

Commander Shockwav
2010-01-28, 12:20 AM
So I thought the issue was pretty good. Not up to the lofty standards Roche has set with the Shockwave or Kup spotlights in the past, but certainly a strong showing.

It's primarily a set up issue that brings us up to speed over what's happened with Garrus-9 over the past three years. We get an intro to the new Wrecker recruits. And we get a brand new Decepticon baddy thrown into the works. Isn't it funny how no matter how many Decepticon badasses you introduce, there's always room for one more?

I was disappointed with the art, however. Too cluttered and the coloring seemed very monotone, as with Maximum Dinobots. I would have preferred some darker shading here, though I guess the coloring did enhance some of the more lighthearted moments of the story. Still, I think one of the areas that comics in general have improved at in leaps and bounds is the coloring and shading which adds depth to the story. That's missing here.

Give it a "B+". It gets the job done, and revelation at the end is enough to make any longtime TF fan a happy camper. Roche makes quite an impact here.
_________________

Red Dave Prime
2010-01-28, 09:54 PM
coloring seemed very monotone, as with Maximum Dinobots

Yeah, agreed. Its quite odd, as Roches work screams colour to me. Roche & Su are my favourite artists (obviously for different reasons) so I really like the character designs and the over-done facial expressions.

The story itself is a little disjointed with all the setting up but seems to settle pretty well by the end of the issue. Interesting how Springers back in command, ahead of kup. Well, for a bit anyway...

Its not as instantly win compared to the kup/ prowl story but its miles ahead of Bumblebee. And seems to be filling the action quota missing from the ongoing at the moment.

3.5 energon cubes?

andersonh1
2010-01-28, 10:47 PM
Last Stand of the Wreckers
Issue 1
Not bad at all. This is clearly a setup issue, but it’s a good one.

The first issue cuts back and forth between two major plot threads as characters are introduced and situations established. It begins with the fall of the Garrus-9 prison to the Decepticons, led by Overlord. I’m not very familiar with early 90s G1 characters, particularly European exclusives, so I’ve had to look up the various characters featured in the story to learn who they are. I’m sure Nick Roche will put his own spin on them, but I was still curious to learn who Skyquake was, or Kick-Off, or Ironfist. I always enjoy seeing obscure G1 characters get some page time and development, and this series will certainly do that.

That leads to the second plot, the introduction of the new additions to the Wreckers crew. Now I’ve never been a big fan of the Wreckers, but I’m willing to be won over. Kup and Springer’s commando group who take on near-suicidal missions has a rotating roster, and Springer expresses doubts about training new recruits who will likely end up dead. Given the severity of the violence under Overlord’s rule, I’d bet he’s right.

The violence is brutal under Overlord’s rule, as Autobots are hunted down for sport or corrupted as they try to survive. Kick-Off’s situation references his toy bio, as he’s trapped and forced to fight for his life, becoming just as ruthless as any Decepticon in the process. I did get a good laugh out of his “alt modes are for wimps” remark, since he’s an Action Master. Then of course, he rips off his opponent’s head, and the scene turns dark again.

I was surprised to see Verity turn up in the story. I’ve missed Simon Furman’s three human sidekicks, so it’s good to see Verity again, and her presence adds a much needed sense of scale to the characters and events. It’s amusing that she decided to stow away on Ultra Magnus’ ship and see the universe rather than go back to her old life on Earth. I hope she doesn’t suffer the same fate as poor Hunter.

I liked this issue quite a bit. The story is strong on continuity with earlier IDW stories, and gives us a glimpse of Megatron’s offensive that led to his victory in AHM, as well as showing us what’s going on elsewhere in the universe while the ongoing is focusing on Earth. It also shows us what life under Decepticon rule would be like, or at least what it would be like under a sadist like Overlord. It’s a good start to the series.

zigzagger
2010-01-29, 01:49 PM
It was good. Not great, but still pretty good.

Yep, pretty much what has been said thus far; it’s an introductory issue. Sets the premise, introduces all the players, some “new” some familiar, has a cliffhanger, etc, etc. Continuity struck me as being firmly planted in the previous era rather than the current. Not that I object or anything, in fact I’m pleased by this, though I gotta say it’s telling of IDW’s muddled continuity.

Story reads competently and is dialogue heavy, but most importantly, it’s fun. It has a good balance of action and humour. Though, as already stated, it is a bit disjointed at moments, particularly during the frequent leaps forward and backwards in time. And while it comes together nicely in the end, most of the characters at this stage are not fully fleshed out yet. It’s too early to make an issue of that, though, and most of them seem to serve the overall plot rather being randomly casted to fill out the ranks. Guess I'll have to wait and see.

Reads a bit like a top-notch fanfic, actually, in the sense that Roche has a particular, stubborn knack of cramming as much detail into his work as possible. It’s definitely a labour of love, and I can at least appreciate that. But, aside from few back references tossed in, some bordering on the realm of obscure, I thought it was done tastefully enough. Didn’t really strike me a being too wanky, though I’m sure some will disagree. Though, I have to say, I shamefully geeked out all over the final page - though it was kinda telegraphed before hand that Impactor would be showing up. Then again, I tend to be a proponent of the lesser-knowns getting actual page time, so there you go – even if characters such as Guzzle, Pyro, Rotorstorm or Ironfist initially didn’t register on my radar. I’m interested in getting to know them better, though. Honest :o

So, yeah, not perfect, but a very good start to what could be a decent series.

Red Dave Prime
2010-01-29, 04:04 PM
This actually reads much better a second time. Maybe its because there are so many new characters floating about, but I enjoyed it much more on the second go. The characters started to come through. Some nice little touches. Also like the profiles in the back. More of IDWs comics should have this - if only for the writers to actual know what the character is supposed to be (an easy shot I know...)

Wondering if they will explain Magnus heading to earth through this. Seems odd that Magnus is linked up with the wreckers here but appears so dettached to the autobots prediciments in the ongoing. But hey, IDW doesnt like things to tie together and make sense do they?

Brimstone
2010-02-01, 05:08 PM
Interesting start...but I'm really starting to get sick of how IDW is handling the story.

There's the on-going, Bumblebee, and the Wreckers...all appear to be happening at the same time, but they obviously can't be. It is really confusing, and unnecessary.

Maybe the Wreckers is in in the past somewhat (or future even), I can't tell. But Bumblebee and the on-going are side by side...BB is referencing the on-going. Even though the on-going doesn't appear to really be connected with the Bumblebee story. It's sloppy, and annoying. I hope LSotW isn't the same.

Denyer
2010-02-01, 06:08 PM
Ultra Magnus has shrunk...

Lots of fun. Necessary setup, with the bonus of fresh characters, old favourites, humour, continuity fill-ins, deft use of techspecs without beating us over the head with them, densely-written with a bonus text piece at the end and dammit, singles still always feel too short. Want moar, and sadly it's the first issue since AHM #15 that's provoked that kind of reaction.

Ackula
2010-02-02, 04:34 AM
Having just read the entire IDW G1 run over the past 3 days, for the first time, I started to suddenly find myself losing interest and hating the comics after AHM. Actually AHM was where it all seemed to go downhill for me, but kept it together enough to be entertaining for me. despite obvious flaws and gaps in the continuity.

However the new ongoing, and the Bumblebee mini, were nothing but a huge disappointment for me, and felt really out of place with the previous stuff I had read. I wasn't expecting this to be any better, but lo and behold it is a breath of fresh air after the ongoing and Bumblebee.

I think this is the most enjoyable of the comics I have read since Maximum Dinobots, and the cast of largely unknowns makes it even better for me, even though they aren't all that unknown, really.

Great balance of humor and action, and I really love Magnus' misuse of earth slang continuing on in this new series as well. Though I am a little fuzzy on the exact time this is happening, as Magnus is on Earth in the ongoing, but the comic is fun enough to make me forget all about that ongoing crap, and rightly so.

Warcry
2010-02-02, 06:28 AM
Um...wow.

This was good. Not okay, or mediocre, but actually, genuinely good. I didn't think IDW knew how to do that anymore.

This one issue had pretty much everything I could ask for in an introductory comic. It was fun, it set the scene for what's to come, and it managed to establish a personality for a fair chunk of the new characters it introduced. Rotorstorm is a cock, Ironfist is a Wrecker fanboy, Kick-Off is a survivor and Overlord is a complete monster. None of them have any real depth yet, but they're interesting enough that I'm really looking forward to seeing how they get fleshed out along the way.

There's not much I can critique here, other than a fanboyish "grrr you killed Skyquake how dare you!", although I wish we'd gotten to see a bit more of the conquest of Garrus-9. There were a lot of late-G1 characters stationed there, and as it is I'm left to assume that the likes of Jackpot, Skyfall and Fastlane are all dead.

zigzagger
2010-02-02, 07:25 PM
However the new ongoing, and the Bumblebee mini, were nothing but a huge disappointment for me, and felt really out of place with the previous stuff I had read.

Gripes about Prowl and whatnot aside, I personally haven't found it bad, per se...just unremarkable.

Though I am a little fuzzy on the exact time this is happening, as Magnus is on Earth in the ongoingOn the backside of the cover, in small text. LSotW #1 is supposedly set before #1 of the ongoing. I'm assuming the following issue will take place during (?!). Still doesn't quite add up, but there you go.

I gather the first 5 pages transpire sometime around AHM, judging by Fortress Maximus' throwaway comment. Plus, remember all that talk about "massacres" in AHM that conveniently transpired off-panel?

There were a lot of late-G1 characters stationed there, and as it is I'm left to assume that the likes of Jackpot, Skyfall and Fastlane are all dead.

And Longtooth, too ;) Though he was a prisoner there.

Gosh, that'd be awful. It'd be like those gratuitous GoBot cameos during the Dreamwave run or Megatron Origin for the sake of fulfilling some "lolz factor".

Warcry
2010-02-02, 11:51 PM
I gather the first 5 pages transpire sometime around AHM, judging by Fortress Maximus' throwaway comment. Plus, remember all that talk about "massacres" in AHM that conveniently transpired off-panel?
Probably a little bit pre-AHM, since the massacres were supposed to have happened before the series started. Since they both show part of the galaxy-wide massacre, I'd guess that it was pretty much concurrent with Spotlight Metroplex.

Gosh, that'd be awful. It'd be like those gratuitous GoBot cameos during the Dreamwave run or Megatron Origin for the sake of fulfilling some "lolz factor".
I dunno, it's the double standard that really bugs me. Sunstreaker or Nightbeat or Ironhide die and it's treated like some sort of OMG BIG EVENT. But characters like Skyquake or Deluge get offed like generic background extras after two pages. The whole "everyone who wasn't in the cartoon is cannon fodder, unless they're named Bludgeon or Nightbeat" thing is just getting really old. And after all of the effort Roche and Roberts have gone to to include non-traditional characters in meaningful roles, it just bugs me that they've seemingly wiped out around a dozen characters without so much as a word.

Cliffjumper
2010-02-03, 05:39 AM
Hey, it's IDW, they'll be back alive next week. We're talking about a universe that doesn't know what continuity is - anything could bring them back, from CR chambers to other writers not reading this book.

That said, this one does sound more interesting than the usual shit.

Halfshell
2010-02-03, 04:22 PM
That was fun.

Good, solid knockabout fun. Overlord is fun (and possibly camp as you like). Anything with Kick-Off in it gets my vote.

Telegraphed as it may have been, I genuinely didn't expect the big fanwank reveal, being as I'd dismissed the previous mention as just a bit of throwaway fun. Niceness.

Promising start. Just a shame it's clearly in continuity with AHM (or what remains of continuity).

inflatable dalek
2010-02-04, 10:30 AM
Well, I was going to wait for the trade but as me mate had a copy I had a sneaky read. It seems Roche is on fine form and once again makes IDW convoluted editorial decisions work. We get a simple straight down the line action story, but a good one. We see the proper sort of impact Megatron's plot in AHM had. We get Rotorstorm. Niffty.


Only real flaw was the presence of Verity, who only seemed to be there for a bet.

zigzagger
2010-02-04, 04:09 PM
Only real flaw was the presence of Verity, who only seemed to be there for a bet.

She didn't really bother me all that much, honestly. I kinda of see it as a little bit of post-AHM clean up and that Roche and Roberts are reconciling a few continuity loose-ends. Or not. I don't know...

Halfshell
2010-02-04, 04:18 PM
I'd rather have her not doing much on Magnus' ship than just a "whatever happened to this major character who was the focus for so long and then never mentioned again?" sidenote.

Ackula
2010-02-04, 04:50 PM
I'd rather have her not doing much on Magnus' ship than just a "whatever happened to this major character who was the focus for so long and then never mentioned again?" sidenote.

This. I liked the fact that she isn't forgotten entirely, and her stowing away on Magnus' ship totally feels in character for her, if you ask me.

Cliffjumper
2010-02-05, 06:58 PM
Okay, that wasn't too bad, not too bad at all. Top characterisation for Ironfist and the Jumpstarters for a start, not so much on the others - though knocking off post-Time Wars Springer at least means there's a good basis for the guy. The Wreckers were nicely defined as well - though again, as with Marvel, it'd have been nice to see them getting a couple of things right before they're inevitably dropped into an aplotcalypse. Plus there's Classics Big Daddy at the end, which is a nice touch. No, wait... Heh. Might, again, be nice to see a bit more of that particular character when he's not eartagged for death. Unless he is.

Big wobbles were Verity - I don't give a shit what it ties up, she's ****ing diabolical. She should just go now, her planet needs her*. And Overlord - I'm not sure how exactly purposefully making someone a terrible villain it's impossible to take seriously is particularly more laudable than the way all the other Decepticons have ended up like that by accident, but we'll see. Once again the IDW universe's in-built defence against drama and continuity is also flagged up as the series has already basically admitted Transformers don't die in this continuity - good old Snare.

So, a good start, but then good starts are easy, and Roche is up against it stuck working for IDW rather than a proper comic company. A good read, even if it probably benefits a bit by being the first half-decent comic put out nder the brand for a year or more.



* Note: Poochy died on the way to her planet

inflatable dalek
2010-02-05, 10:25 PM
Big wobbles were Verity - I don't give a shit what it ties up, she's ****ing diabolical. She should just go now, her planet needs her*.

Yep. It's laudable that Roche is trying to do the job keeping continuity going that all the other writers can't be bollocked with but she's one bit of the past that was perfectly drop-able. Her two panel cameo in Maximum Dinobots pretty much wrapped her up as much as needed. Mainly because Furman was well on the road to decentralising her long before Shane McCarthy had even finished ****ing up Batman. What was the last actual genuine plot based thing she did? Looking round the Decepticon base back in Infiltration? Sure, she kind of hung around after that but pretty much all her stuff was in a plot dead end involving not finding Sunstreaker and got less and less as it went on.

It doesn't help she seems to have absorbed Hunter's pop culture quoting "It's so cool to be hanging out with aliens!" personality rather than being the pissed off emo of old. I can't see any situation where she would actually want to keep hanging round with the Autobots (a choice she must have made before AHM as well) and I can't see IDW Ultra Magnus wanting her.

And Overlord - I'm not sure how exactly purposefully making someone a terrible villain it's impossible to take seriously is particularly more laudable than the way all the other Decepticons have ended up like that by accident, but we'll see.

Yeah, it's something that could go tits up one of two ways. We either find out his mysterious purpose and he becomes a dull stock IDW baddy, or he's got no great plan whatsoever and is just a nutter doing a rerun of Fall and Rise... which could be a bit anti-climactic. Some sort of middle ground, keeping his cheerful demeanour but still giving a Wreckers worthy challenge is the tricky part. But I think (well, hope) Roche can pull it off.

Cliffjumper
2010-02-05, 10:56 PM
I'm hoping Overlord is actually a bit of a bluff - he gets bumped off mid-series in favour of a villain who's more dangerous to the Wreckers than his own men (How many Decepticons did he [IDW] kill in one issue? Three?) - maybe the cliffhanger chap. Either that or his idiocy is a front, but as you say hopefully not for him being another Ultimate Decepticon Deathbringer who just happens to get his clock cleaned by the Wreckers learning the true meaning of Christmas or whatever.

Going back up the thread, I found the Action Master joke to be Brad Mick-level clumsy, but it was only a single line and the rest of the scene was handled pretty well. Got bored of Kup's stupid cigar after a couple of frames, though, he just looks like he's got a section of pipe coming out of his mouth at all times. Liked the colours - it wasn't too "**** YEH WE GOT FOUR MILLION COLOURS!", and lovely art too.

zigzagger
2010-02-05, 11:17 PM
Got bored of Kup's stupid cigar after a couple of frames, though, he just looks like he's got a section of pipe coming out of his mouth at all times.

Yeah, it is rather awkward to look at (nothing new to anyone, I know). I would say Roche got painted into a corner on that one - except that he did write that piece in AHM #15 that goes out of the way to explain what the **** that "cygar" thing is, so, sadly, I guess it stays.

Nevermore
2010-02-05, 11:29 PM
Loved the issue. Loved, loved, loved it.

Even enjoyed Verity. Was impartial to her before, but I like her in this.

Warcry
2010-02-06, 12:47 AM
I'm hoping Overlord is actually a bit of a bluff - he gets bumped off mid-series in favour of a villain who's more dangerous to the Wreckers than his own men (How many Decepticons did he [IDW] kill in one issue? Three?) - maybe the cliffhanger chap. Either that or his idiocy is a front, but as you say hopefully not for him being another Ultimate Decepticon Deathbringer who just happens to get his clock cleaned by the Wreckers learning the true meaning of Christmas or whatever.
I like having a villain with straightforward motivations and a very simple plan for once.

After all, it's coming on the heels of AHM, where we were told that Megatron was actually a genius who was five steps ahead of everyone else and orchestrating all sorts of ridiculously complicated plots to secretly control his own men, the Autobots and the humans (even though he still acted suspiciously like his usual "dimwitted strongman who keeps control via a cult of personality" portrayal). And Revelations too, where Nova Prime was trying to do...something that was never really made clear, but was apparently big and epic and horribly complex. And overcomplicated villainy wasn't scarce in the previous IDW stuff either.

Compared to all of that, Overlord's apparent two-step plan (Step 1: Take over a planet; Step 2: torture people for the hell of it) is a nice change of pace. :)

Cliffjumper
2010-02-06, 12:52 AM
I like having a villain with straightforward motivations and a very simple plan for once.

I love that side of it. It's just why can't he have straightforward motivations and a very simple plan and not act like an idiot and/or kill his own troops.

I'm hoping this is the stripped-down ruck that the emo, flip-flopping, dangly-end juggling, unwittingly cliched Maximum Dinobots should have been.

Warcry
2010-02-06, 02:27 AM
I love that side of it. It's just why can't he have straightforward motivations and a very simple plan and not act like an idiot and/or kill his own troops.
I don't think he sees them as his own troops so much as he sees them as another group of victims to terrorize, but I see your point.

I'm hoping this is the stripped-down ruck that the emo, flip-flopping, dangly-end juggling, unwittingly cliched Maximum Dinobots should have been.
And here I thought I was the only one who didn't like that series...

Totally agree with you there. Teams like the Wreckers and the Dinobots are the ideal cast for fun-first raucous adventure stories. Angsty drama, not so much.

inflatable dalek
2010-02-06, 04:04 AM
The alt modes line I could have lived with if the Decepticon had actually looked as if he were trying to transform. It was made up for by the subsequent insane campness of the "Come to my room later for a special reward" bit though.

As Megatron and AHM have been mentioned... I wonder why Megatron never bothered to send anyone to check why his team that attacked Garrus 9 didn't come back?

I will actually be amazed if the special surprise guest star we're all being so coy about naming makes it through alive to the end of the series. It's a shame a mention of him couldn't have been fitted into Roche's Coda story (either by Springer or by being included in Prowl's list of dodgy Autobots) in order to try and make it a bit less "Hey, remember Soandso we've not mentioned before?" *Five pages later* "Blimey, it's Soandso! What are the odds".

On the plus side, him and Springer having a proper off panel established history (as opposed to knowing each other for less than five days) is a good thing.

optimusskids
2010-02-06, 12:24 PM
It's ok Warcry , Jackpot accidentally picked up a Retconifier, Time Machine and luckily mad it all better

zigzagger
2010-02-16, 09:41 PM
This is your all purpose Transformers: Last Stand of the Wreckers #2 reaction and discussion thread. Come and join us. It'll be fun.

Due to hit the shelves February 17.

Preview pages @ Comics Continuum (http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/1002/16/idwfirsts.htm).

http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/6699/lsotw2page1.th.jpg (http://img638.imageshack.us/i/lsotw2page1.jpg/)http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/3923/lsotw2page2.th.jpg (http://img717.imageshack.us/i/lsotw2page2.jpg/)http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/4148/lsotw2page3.th.jpg (http://img707.imageshack.us/i/lsotw2page3.jpg/)http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/3043/lsotw2page4.th.jpg (http://img717.imageshack.us/i/lsotw2page4.jpg/)http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/5982/lsotw2page5.th.jpg (http://img638.imageshack.us/i/lsotw2page5.jpg/)http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/2936/lsotw2page6.th.jpg (http://img130.imageshack.us/i/lsotw2page6.jpg/)

Commander Shockwav
2010-02-18, 01:15 AM
Suhweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet.

Roche and James do it again, surpassing the effort of the first issue to recapture the nostalgic magic of the Marvel UK comics of the eighties.

Not only that, but somehow they are able to develop a large cast, add layers upon layers of intrigue and mystery to the already very intriguing plot, and even tie things back to Infiltration and the current ongoing storyline, almost miraculously giving us some semblence of continuity in a single issue that has been lacking for quite some time.

That they're able to add just the right amount of humor to the story without it being over the top only reinforces why Nick is IDW's greatest asset to date.

The only disappointment for me was, again, the monotone coloring. Very difficult at times to discern where one bot ends and the other begins, ala Maximum Dinobots.

But when a story is this mouth-watering good, what's a little artistic kink, after all.

And we get even more references to certain UK Marvel characters that I didn't think would be mentioned.

And a new Decepticon mystery bot, which likely will tie into the Prowl Spotlight in some form or fashion.

Give it a solid "A". Had the art been better, would have been the perfect issue. Nice to know that somebody is paying attention to what the other writers at IDW are doing.

Red Dave Prime
2010-02-18, 10:53 PM
It is good isnt it? Dont know how well it will tie into the ongoing - seemed odd that its prowl that summons magnus but then heads off with hot-rod.

But thats a different comic. This is the good stuff.

Theres no overly complex. A few little mysteries but its a basic rescue mission goes tits-up. But its done with flair and character. I'd agree that the colours could maybe have been a bit more vibrant but the colour change for the flashbacks works really nicely. The build up of overlord is going great guns - Just a psycho, no grand plan.

If I had to pick flaws... the size of the decepticons seems a bit off. On one page overlord is a massive machine laying waste to ankle high opponents, the next he's face to face with Megatron (along with sixshot and black shadow). Its more a peeve but I kinda wish size was more respected in Transformers.

The other gripe? The 2 squads that get sent down... who did perceptor piss off to be on the very B team? :)

4 energon cubes - so far, so very, very good nick.

zigzagger
2010-02-20, 09:56 AM
For those who don't know, LSotW #2 and Bumblebee #3 will not be shipped to Northeastern United States until March 1st. See Chris Ryall's Twitter (http://twitter.com/chris_ryall/):

comics shops in the northeast, the reason why IDW books aren't in your hands today is a horrific accident involving the truck w/our books

The books were all destroyed, the drivers severely injured. The TPBs will be in stores on 2/24, this week's comics on 3/1...

...this is to clear up the various fallacies I've seen online that we have no books out this week. It's actually a very big week for us.

The damaged comics are regrettable but my thoughts are with the truck drivers. Very grim situation.---------

Sorry to hear that. I hope the drivers pull through :)

Now, on to issue 2. Just going to make some notes:

Good character moments here. Rotorstorm and Ironfirst are gradually coming into their own. Ironfist’s fanboyisms, while I was initially wary of them, I’m finding to be rather charming and it was good to see Rotorstorm’s profile from the last issue put into effect. I almost dread what will become of them come the end of this mini.

Impactor, while he’s a bit of a plot device, is intriguing. He seems like a worthwhile addition to the cast. His relationship to Springer should be interesting to watch unfold.

Overlord - really, what it comes down to is that this issue is all about everyone’s reaction to him rather than the mission at hand. That’s how it struck me, anyway, be it through Kup, Impactor, Megatron or Snare’s encounters with him. Definitely brings home how dire the situation is, even for a character that is pretty simplistic in his goals. Speaking of Snare, that bit between him and Impactor shows a surprising level of depth, brief as it was, for a character that has otherwise been underused. I liked it.

There’s something about Prowl wanting this Aequitas, whatever that is, that seems sinister. Can’t help but think that after Roche’s piece in AHM #15.

Black Shadow as one of Megatron’s “phase-sixers”? Wouldn’t have pictured it before, but it kinda works.

Quibbles? Well, there is one. Initially I was content with the idea of Verity showing up for the sake of reconciling a few loose ends, and that all she’d be doing was fulfilling some minor supporting role. You know, we’d find out what happened to her, she’d maybe make a couple throwaway comments and that’d be it. That doesn’t seem to be the case now as she’s fallen back to her more…meddlesome habits. Though, I suppose it is in character. But, as much as I liked token squishies like Hunter during the Furman run, I’m not so sure if I’m stoked about this theme being revisited.

Overall – I appreciate the layered story and steady pacing, but, again, it’s more set-up. Still, it’s delivered in the usual Roche/Roberts flair. It’s shaping up into quite the mystery tale and I’m anxious to know what happens next. There’s a lot to like here.

Red Dave Prime
2010-02-20, 12:35 PM
I was content with the idea of Verity showing up for the sake of reconciling a few loose ends, and that all she’d be doing was fulfilling some minor supporting role. You know, we’d find out what happened to her, she’d maybe make a couple throwaway comments and that’d be it. That doesn’t seem to be the case now as she’s fallen back to her more…meddlesome habits. Though, I suppose it is in character. But, as much as I liked token squishies like Hunter during the Furman run, I’m not so sure if I’m stoked about this theme being revisited.

Yeah, know what you mean. She doesnt harm the story but I'm not really sure the story needed her on top of everything else. Maybe its to set up an overlord attack on earth having meet one of us squishy fleshings. The dynamic duo have got the first two issues right so far so I'm confident they wont make a hash of it though. Roche for head writer please (and yes, its not just cause he's written IDWs best work over the past year, its also cause he's a fellow Irishman)

Halfshell
2010-02-22, 06:04 PM
Is it bad that I want to use the term "fanwank" in a positive manner?

Yay for the Operation Volcano reference. :)

Overlord - really, what it comes down to is that this issue is all about everyone’s reaction to him rather than the mission at hand.

Given that the Autobot reaction was almost identical to the Decepticons. I liked. Daaaaamn. This is not happening, this is not happening.

Speaking of Snare, that bit between him and Impactor shows a surprising level of depth, brief as it was, for a character that has otherwise been underused. I liked it.

"Why should I trust you? You're a Decepticon named Snare."

LOVE.

Black Shadow as one of Megatron’s “phase-sixers”? Wouldn’t have pictured it before, but it kinda works.

Black Shadow was the Thunderwing analogue, wasn't he? Works entirely.

Shame Verity's staying, but at least it means her cameo was actually plot-relevant rather than being crammed in to tie up loose ends. And it is in-character. I think... I have trouble remembering if she had one.

Nice things:
- Telepathic link between the Jumpstarters
- Ironfist is a narcoleptic
- Perceptor suddenly being a psychopath being picked up and used in a good way
- The possibility that Drift is dead
- Everything else

"The Wreckers, impossible odds, weird brain bullets... it doesn't get much better than this."

[oh, and for those who miss IDW's incompetence, my copy of #1 finally arrived today... 2nd printing. Complete with Impactor on the cover. Yay!]

Denyer
2010-02-22, 06:58 PM
Am currently the walking dead, so I'll settle for: this cheered me up lots. And turned up with Phonogram: The Singles Club #7, which did too.

Red Dave Prime
2010-02-22, 08:03 PM
Drift is in ongoing (just as a background character)

I'm imagining the wreckers dropped him once springer realised he too had a sword.

Altough I think that if IDW wanted to make amends for past ****-ups, overlord DESTROYING Drift would be kinda funny.

Halfshell
2010-02-22, 08:49 PM
Drift is in ongoing

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Red Dave Prime
2010-02-22, 10:14 PM
I dont know either :/

Ackula
2010-02-23, 05:02 AM
I just wish I could find the damn comic.....


I even went to an actual comic store, just to be directed to the "newest Transformers issues", which turned out to be AHM #9-#13 :wall:

optimusskids
2010-02-23, 07:12 AM
Who gets the profile treatment this time round?

zigzagger
2010-02-23, 03:41 PM
Who gets the profile treatment this time round?

Sadly, no one this time around.

Though, a proper Impactor profile does sound mighty tempting. He never got one of those back in the Marvel days did he?

I just wish I could find the damn comic.....


If you haven't tracked one down yet, you might get lucky on February 24 (http://www.tfw2005.com/transformers-news/comics-16/diamond-comics-shipping-list-for-february-24th-169207/)th, if not March 1st.

Is it bad that I want to use the term "fanwank" in a positive manner?

Yay for the Operation Volcano reference. :)
The mission that also happens to be numbered "078/088"? Yep, caught that too.

**blushes**

Yeah, it's a little less subtle if you happen to recognise where the references come from.

Nevermore
2010-02-23, 05:53 PM
Who gets the profile treatment this time round?

Nobody.

Burcham promised that issue 3 would make up for that with two profiles.

Cliffjumper
2010-03-13, 05:02 PM
Not read the thread because, well.

HOLY **** WAS THAT AN ACTION SEQUENCE IN AN IDW COMIC? Did we take a ****ing break from people standing around monitors saying Big Captilaised Words at each other? Jesus H. Christ.

About the only thing which felt leaden was the Target 2006 issue number reference. Everything else rocked the ****ing casbah, baby.

I'm starting to feel Overlord as an intentionally pigshit-thick bad guy rather than try to take him seriously, which is good - the first one was ambiguous as to whether he was meant to be proper, but it's cleared up here.

Great characterisation all round, though - Snare feels like more of a three-dimensional person than anything IDW have done yet, and the Wreckers are even better.

Terome
2010-03-14, 12:00 PM
Agreed on the T:2006 reference, seems a bit indulgent to me. But it's not like it took up much space and it's a very small niggle in what is otherwise an incredibly well put-together comic.

It's amazing how well they nail the voices of all the characters, isn't it? It's an accomplishment of the art as well as the writing, but it translates in my head as sound.

I wonder how long it will be before we get a major Decepticon character in this continuity who is really into Megatron. 90% of the poor commander's life seems to have been spent putting down insurrections of some sort.

It's interesting how, if the clues on the IDW forums are right, this series seems to have both sold out and sold the least of this Bumblebee/ongoing/Wreckers crop.

Cliffjumper
2010-03-14, 12:38 PM
I think the Target thing really stood out for me because the issue numbers are just burnt into my brain from sorting scans (Marvel UK issues is also my counting sheep for insomnia, there's a tragic fact for you... only works if you fall asleep before they started the double-bill Transformers stuff)... It just sort of jolted me out of the story for a second, it was like the difference between a character saying an injoke and a character knowing they were saying an injoke.

Looks like they underestimated demand, yeh. Tenner says they double the print runs for the rest of the series and end up with 6-7k unsellable issues. The interesting thing is I'd have Last Stand down as more of a TPB seller than an issue seller. Looks like I'm no better than IDW's editorial team. Well, actually, I don't dress as Optimus Prime in order to prey on small boys.

Terome
2010-03-14, 01:16 PM
I wonder if they are going to keep up this trident strategy of the three books. In their way, the other two books - ongoing and Bumblebee - accomplish exactly what they set out to do, but what they do is not something I, personally, particularly want. Bumblebee, I'd argue, is probably the most accomplished of the three from a technical standpoint but the least enjoyable for me to read.

Could IDW sustain three Transformers comics for an extended span on top of the movie output? I kind of hope so. I'd love a helping from Roche and Roberts every month and could happily leave the other two titles to get on with their thing.

And hey, Cliffy, I thought for sure that you'd balk at Verity's antics straight from the Human Sidekick Playbook. Has the shock of a readable comic dampened your ire for Furman's flail at modern youth culture?

Cliffjumper
2010-03-14, 01:31 PM
Yeh, I think it's just that there's so much good stuff going on you can give it a pass at something. She's still terrible, but there's actually enough quality to smother her, unlike her role in the initial Furman stuff. It helps that there are Transformers with personalities in this one.

Halfshell
2010-03-14, 01:54 PM
I think the Target thing really stood out for me because the issue numbers are just burnt into my brain from sorting scans

See, I didn't even notice it until it was brought up in this thread.

But then number-related stuff just tends to pass me by. I just parse it as "bunchanumbers" unless somebody actually points it out.

Yeh, I think it's just that there's so much good stuff going on you can give it a pass at something. She's still terrible, but there's actually enough quality to smother her, unlike her role in the initial Furman stuff. It helps that there are Transformers with personalities in this one.

Yep. When she's the focal point of the story (or the writer's desperately trying to make us care about her), is when she grates. If she's just sort of there and there's a plot going on around her, it's permissable.

Cliffjumper
2010-03-14, 05:01 PM
Mmm, it's amazing what you can overlook in a comic where stuff actually happens. If I had to sum up Wreckers in one word it'd be "fun".

The biggest problem is that it makes it all the more galling so long's been wasted. It's absolute proof that action books aren't mindless, burning a thousand pro-Dead Furmanverse strawmen like an automatic strawman burner. It's proof that you can establish stuff ARGH BONUS TRACK ATTACK **** OFF **** OFF is different while also telling a story, you don't need convoluted scenes of people standing around monitors talking at each other about The Device or The Organisation.

As for claims by Schmidt in the other thread that this book is inaccessible... I'd argue with that. I'm not entirely sure how much of IDW I've read; I think it's everything, but most of it was so vapid and po-faced it got overwritten by Baldios, Gods' Girls and Dad's Army. So I can remember basically nothing beyond "Wreckers still tough", "Ultra Magnus - SPACE DETECTIVE" and "Decepticons are ****ing rubbish". I can follow this with no problems. I'm not entirely sure what Alexis is doing hanging around with Magnus beyond trying to justify ninety-odd pages of introduction for a character who thus far has turned out to be completely pointless, but on the other hand it's so engrossing I really couldn't give a shit.


Oh, and I remember Ramjet straying from the three established Decepticon character types (grandoise plotting leader/slimy 2IC/sadistic thug) and getting killed for his trouble.

Terome
2010-03-14, 06:17 PM
The Device or The Organisation.

I'm sorry, The Device and The Organisation have never existed, you must surely be mistaken. Hey, look - Seaspray!

Warcry
2010-03-14, 10:32 PM
As for claims by Schmidt in the other thread that this book is inaccessible... I'd argue with that.
Keep in mind that the definition for 'accessible' in Transformers stuff these days apparently is "has the 1984 cast and/or reminds people of the Bay movies". You would expect things like self-contained storylines and character arcs to factor in, but apparently not.

I read this the other day and really liked it. Roche and Roberts are doing a great job fleshing out the newbie Wreckers, to the point where I'm hoping that it's established characters like Perceptor or Kup who end up as designated cannon fodder -- the new guys are just so likable. It's nice to see Snare get a bit of depth too. One of the things that I was worried about from the first issue was that we wouldn't get to know any of the lower-ranked 'Cons because Overlord would steal the stage with his sadistic Giant Ham act.

It was nice to see that Sixshot wasn't the only Phase Six killing machine, although that leaves me to wonder just where Trypticon fits into things. Up until now I had sort of assumed that he would have fit into the same niche, but now I'm left wondering exactly what he's for. Unlike the Autobots, one assumes that the Decepticons wouldn't leave one of their biggest killing machines sitting alone on an asteroid (hello, Metroplex and Omega Supreme...).

The best thing about this series so far, IMO, is that Roche and Roberts have done a much better job of pacing things out. The talk-heavy scenes have a lot more dialogue crammed into each panel than something like AHM, which helps them fit more action into each issue. But more importantly, it also means that the cinematic scenes (like the half-page of 'Cons trying to shoot down the Wreckers' landing pods, or the first-page shot of Overlord) actually have an impact because they stand out from everything around them.

Roche needs a bit of practice drawing humans, though. Half the time Verity looks like a normal person and the other half she looks like she's got some sort of hideous facial deformity.

Cliffjumper
2010-03-14, 10:50 PM
The other option is to just not draw Jubilee in at all. I'm not against humans in TF comics per se, I've just yet to find one I didn't want to die.


Actually, that's hyperbole, I always kinda liked Buster, especially when he got sort-of ****ed up and written off. The Spike thing weirdly worked out alright there for Marvel. For some reason I always give TF cartoon humans a lot more leeway, possibly because the cartoons have generally been rubbish anyway.

Terome
2010-03-14, 10:52 PM
It was nice to see that Sixshot wasn't the only Phase Six killing machine, although that leaves me to wonder just where Trypticon fits into things. Up until now I had sort of assumed that he would have fit into the same niche, but now I'm left wondering exactly what he's for. Unlike the Autobots, one assumes that the Decepticons wouldn't leave one of their biggest killing machines sitting alone on an asteroid (hello, Metroplex and Omega Supreme...).

It made me feel quite sorry for Sixshot, really. He started out so eager, but after how ever many years of nuking planets - long enough in the job for Kup to get lost and then forgotten about - he seems to have become incredibly bored and unfulfilled. He must have killed really an awful lot of people in between present day and this flashback.

I wonder if he's the only Phase Sixer left, or if Overlord and Black Shadow were replaced. If Black Shadow hasn't buggered off by now, he'll be a good bet for first place in the Only Useful Decepticon Still Loyal To Megatron race.
I hope so much that Schmidt doesn't get to Trypticon first. I have a horrible feeling that he's going to be used in a dull follow-up to the equally dull Spotlight: Metroplex.

Roche and Roberts are doing a great job fleshing out the newbie Wreckers, to the point where I'm hoping that it's established characters like Perceptor or Kup who end up as designated cannon fodder

To my eye, Pyro has a big, red bullseye painted on his face. Ironfist is too useful as an exposition-machine. At least I hope that is the case. But yeah, I hope some of the Names go down for the count. And that Snare lives to be interesting for another day. (I wouldn't put it past R&R to roll out a bilateral Survivors-like team after this...)

Terome
2010-03-14, 10:56 PM
Cliffjumper: I always kinda liked Buster

I'm not sure that I can remember much about Buster's personality. The only thing that comes to me is that he was said to be a good student. I never believed that, myself. Not sure why. Just smelled like bullshit.

Cliffjumper
2010-03-14, 10:59 PM
Yeh, Pyro does feel a little like "The Other One". Guzzle's the (wannabe?) hardcase, Ironfist is the fanboy (with a bullseye on him so big it'd be obvious to kill him off, surely?), Rotorstorm's the cocky guy, Pyro's just sort of there when the others need someone to bounce off.

Impactor's not going to make it off-planet either. Not sure he'll die, but he won't be leaving on a shuttle with the others. Terrific design, though - please God Hasbro make one of those. I'll start buying ROTF jets, anything, just do it.

EDIT: @ Terome... it wasn't so much his personality as the way after the first arc or so he started reacting a bit realistically - largely traumatised, often kept out of the way of the whole thing. While we did get a lot of irritating humans in the Marvel comic, it was possibly the better alternative to the cartoon Spike style character who hung around with the Autobots and taught them about dinosaurs and love and Chinese New Year.

Terome
2010-03-14, 11:05 PM
Yeh, Pyro does feel a little like "The Other One". Guzzle's the (wannabe?) hardcase, Ironfist is the fanboy (with a bullseye on him so big it'd be obvious to kill him off, surely?), Rotorstorm's the cocky guy, Pyro's just sort of there when the others need someone to bounce off.

He's also in danger of exhausting his one joke by next issue...

EDIT: @Cliffjumper... The only annoying thing I think I can remember about Buster is the abuse of his reader-identification status when he repeatedly mistook the Boltax simulation thingy as the real thing while cracking wise with Starscream. I've probably only read that issue once or twice and I'm still able to get frustrated at the memory of it.

He definitely gets points for the trauma though. Jazz nearly incinerating his father in front of him was frankly a bad enough start that I wonder he was able to concentrate at all by the end of the tenth issue.

Warcry
2010-03-15, 12:44 AM
It made me feel quite sorry for Sixshot, really. He started out so eager, but after how ever many years of nuking planets - long enough in the job for Kup to get lost and then forgotten about - he seems to have become incredibly bored and unfulfilled. He must have killed really an awful lot of people in between present day and this flashback.
It's been a long while since I read Sixshot's spotlight, but the impression that I got was that he loved his work and sunk into nihilistic depression in the months- or years-long lulls between glassing one planet and getting called to the next one. He certainly seemed to be having a ball in the Metroplex spotlight. Alas, despite appearing in eight or nine issues so far we've yet to see him do his actual job so far. Singlehandedly destroying the outpost in Metroplex is probably the closest he's come, but there's still a long way to go from there before you hit "obliterating all life on a planet".

I hope so much that Schmidt doesn't get to Trypticon first. I have a horrible feeling that he's going to be used in a dull follow-up to the equally dull Spotlight: Metroplex.
That would follow, considering how Schmidt went to such lengths to retcon in the Galvatron-Cyclonus-Scourge trio with an army of Sweeps. I could totally see him wanting to revive the 'classic' Sunbow Metroplex/Trypticon rivalry.

IMO, a big problem with using Trypticon in any significant capacity is that Furman stole a good chunk of his personality (unstoppable killing machine who's a bit bored of it all) and grafted it onto Sixshot. A decent writer could take the basic building blocks and go in a different direction, but I don't have that confidence in most of IDW's writers at the moment.

To my eye, Pyro has a big, red bullseye painted on his face. Ironfist is too useful as an exposition-machine. At least I hope that is the case. But yeah, I hope some of the Names go down for the count. And that Snare lives to be interesting for another day. (I wouldn't put it past R&R to roll out a bilateral Survivors-like team after this...)
At this point I could see either Pyro or Guzzle biting it. Rotorstorm and Ironfist both seem to be getting built up a bit more (Ironfist with his mysterious fainting spells, Rotorstorm with his show of cockiness that seems to be hiding a much more vulnerable person on the inside). Pyro and Guzzle so far have gotten less attention, like enjoyable but ultimately disposable guest stars.

Terome
2010-03-15, 01:19 AM
It's been a long while since I read Sixshot's spotlight, but the impression that I got was that he loved his work and sunk into nihilistic depression in the months- or years-long lulls between glassing one planet and getting called to the next one. He certainly seemed to be having a ball in the Metroplex spotlight.

Oh yeah, that reading does seem to make a bit more sense, which is why it is suspect.

I could totally see him wanting to revive the 'classic' Sunbow Metroplex/Trypticon rivalry.

Despite my complaints, I would pay good money to see 22 pages of Trypticon getting thrown into a lake whenever he tried to do anything.

Pyro and Guzzle so far have gotten less attention, like enjoyable but ultimately disposable guest stars.

It might just be getting late, but I'd be sad to see any of the newbies die. I feel so good for them that they are getting some attention. Not like poor Manta Ray. He just got shot in the face by EVIL DECEPTICON DRIFT in the preview of his four issue long Alex Milne-drawn miniseries. At least we can count on Pyro and Guzzle's inevitable snuffings to not be so devastatingly humiliating.

Halfshell
2010-03-15, 04:12 PM
Not like poor Manta Ray. He just got shot in the face by EVIL DECEPTICON DRIFT

I thought he got killed by Nemesis Prime in Revelation?

Can I put in a pre-emptive shout for the psychically-linked Jumpstarters finishing the series as Rack n Ruin?

[EDIT] And I think we know which character to blame when the Taj Mahal mysteriously vanishes in the ongoing.

Terome
2010-03-15, 08:35 PM
I thought he got killed by Nemesis Prime in Revelation?

Word on the forum street is that I was totally wrong!

Can I put in a pre-emptive shout for the psychically-linked Jumpstarters finishing the series as Rack n Ruin?

Seems like a safe bet. Cor, they'll have to buy a whole new set of jumpers.

inflatable dalek
2010-03-16, 10:08 AM
I haven't read yet (though the first issue was fun) but I am loving how this thread is not only four times longer than for anything else out this month but a full page longer than for comics that have been out since January. HA.

LKW
2010-03-18, 03:13 AM
Hey, it got Cliffy to say something positive about an IDW comic (!! jawdropping!) - qed it must be something.

I had a couple of minor niggles - I think Roche's artwork needs a better inker than he got this issue. And, while I've been as big a Josh Burcham fan as anyone, some of his colors are striking me as a little too... neon-bright, maybe.

But otherwise, continues to be a great book, justifying my decisions to make it the only current TF book on my pull and to fill it with the Infiltration to Maximum Dinobots part of my TF collection (AHM and the ongoing stcuk separately in the back of a drawer, much as they will be in my mind).

So, Roche is Irish? Maybe he actually did have all of these toys - Europeon exclusives plus Guzzle, maybe othe traditional Wreckers - as a child, explaining the sort of random-seeming composition of the team?

zigzagger
2010-03-23, 02:08 PM
This is your all purpose Transformers: Last Stand of the Wreckers #3 reaction and discussion thread.

Out March 24th.

While we wait for the usual preview (aside from the two-pager reported here (http://tfarchive.com/community/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48411)) to surface, here's a little "teaser" to tide y'all over, courtesy of Nick Roche Is Bad, Bad, Baaaad Man (http://nickroche.blogspot.com/)...

http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/2161/wreckers03teaser.th.jpg (http://img705.imageshack.us/i/wreckers03teaser.jpg/)

Commander Shockwav
2010-03-24, 10:12 PM
It was okay. Primarily an issue of action, the story doesn't move forward much. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing midseries, but now that Nick and James have whetted my appetite with the whole Aequitas thing, I'm finding myself a tad bit impatient.

Nice references to prior continuity (the Reapers, Kup's rescue in his spotlight). Interesting take on the Jumpstarters relationship. Bringing Shockwave into the story can only be considered a good thing. There's a good mix of individual character focus here too, which is not an easy thing to do given the large cast. Seems like every bot has their own history and story to tell, and the writers are doing a nice job balancing that with the overall story arc.

My major gripe is mostly the art. It's cluttered and feels a bit rushed, and again I find the coloring quite monotone and lacking in the shading department. Difficult at times to tell whose arm is whose. No offense, but I'm really looking forward to Guido taking the reins for at least a bit, as I find his style a bit cleaner.

Verity is really an unwelcome distraction in this series. If I didn't find her annoying before, she certainly is now.

Give it a "B". Good issue hampered by rushed-appearing art.

Auntie Slag
2010-03-25, 06:07 PM
Good lord, it's great fun! Very wordy, but full of action too. This is the kind of thing I've been totally missing out on since Dreamwave and IDW took over. With these publishers the order of the day has been lots of fancy artwork (with nary a side glance to things like perspective), and very minimal dialogue.

This on the other hand is very refreshing. I think they've (Roberts & Roche), have struck a really nice balance with the Wreckers. As a reader, I love the Wreckers because they've always been entertaining, and they're kind of easy to love. Much more so now with the new roster additions (Ironfist is such a great geek-out Wrecker fan. He's Incrediboy from 'The Incredibles').

But it also captures an element of 'The twenty-minute-ers' from Blackadder Goes Forth. Yeah, they're loveable and interesting and... they have actual character!?!?! but they've all signed up for a gig where their number could be up at any moment.

I'll buy the TPB when it comes out, and it'll get as much reading as my G2 issues. Probably more so I imagine, as there's lots here that's inspiring.

Red Dave Prime
2010-03-26, 12:03 AM
Loved this issue. Lots of action but not wasteful set-pieces, rather the story flows along with it. I found the pace of the issue was excellent. Something is happening on every page and there's explanations for some things and set-ups for further mystery.

the story doesn't move forward much

I dont really agree. Theres a lot of events here and quite a few characters get little bits which point further to their motivations. I'd go as far to say its a perfect mid series issue. (not a perfect issue folks!) Its got everyone firmly established, its got the scene set-up and its setting up the final important reveals.

I would have to agree on the colours, altough I dont mind the clutter of roches panels. Unlike Milne for example, it adds rather then takes away. Verity is another issue as well. I dont mind her in the issue but I'm kinda figuring her name is what got her linked to this story what with Aequitas and all. I'm wondering who or what that is. I'm still thinking black shadow will turn up at one point - altough maybe he will be whom kup was sent to retrieve.
Altough that could be Grimlock as well (isnt he in the last resort prison?)

Actually, the opening scene inadvertantly helped explain Bludgeon and the monstroctur six being free in the AHM perceptor story.

Anyway, excellent stuff, cant wait for part 4.

Just as a thought - I'm going for Aequitas being Fort Maxs giant form which they'll download him into - with possibly Verity ebing part of the combi, maybe like a head or power master set-up. Y'know, truth and justice (god, it sounds like a tag team...)

Warcry
2010-03-27, 03:33 AM
Having a giant Fort Max show up and own Overlord would be sort of anticlimactic in a book about the Wreckers, IMO. Plus it would raise all sorts of logical questions (such as why he didn't just squash Overlord and the Predators to start with) so I think we can probably rule that out. Aequitas is definitely someone or something quite large, though, and seemingly something that even the new recruits recognize by name.

This issue was very, very good. The first few pages carried on the same sort of high adventure feel that...well, that Ironfist was probably expecting, complete with an awesome (well, actually funny, anyway) joke from Rotorstorm. But then the tone of the book kicks off in a totally different direction so quickly that it could give you whiplash. Rotorstorm has an ugly, meaningless death, and our remaining heroes stumble upon Kick-Off's mangled carcass and a Fort Max who would, frankly, be better off dead. It's all very well-executed -- Roche and Roberts did a great job of making me feel the same slowly-creeping dread that I'm sure the (still living) Wreckers must be experiencing.

There were a couple of points that I took issue with, though. Firstly, I have to wonder why Perceptor's team were trying to dogpile Overlord instead of riddling him full of bullets as soon as they saw him. It wouldn't have changed the flow of the issue one bit -- he would have, presumably, just shrugged off their massed fire like he did their attempts to pummel him -- but at least the Wreckers would have looked a bit smarter that way.

The other thing that bothered me was the art. A lot of the panels toward the end of the book seemed sloppy and rushed, not nearly as crisp as the first two books. The colouring didn't help much either. In some panels the characters have white halos. In other places, black almost overwhelms the colour palate. On their own these would just be minor annoyances, but put together it really smacks of an issue that was rushed out the door.

Cliffjumper
2010-03-27, 05:10 AM
Thoroughly unenjoyable unpretentious actioner. Respectable plot without forgetting that comics are basically meant to be exciting, and therefore continues to be the complete opposite of practically everything else IDW have put out.

Rotorstorm - NOOOOOO! :( At least he got easily the best line in IDW's history first.

Guzzle being pissed at Kup is a great little detail too. I remember thinking when reading the Spotlight that it was very harsh on the poor bastards getting ripped apart by a mad old tool, but IIRC instead Prowl copped the flak for mentioning it because he's Prowl.

Still not entirely sold on Overlord, especially as it's looking less like he's just a complete bastard and more like He Has His Own Agenda and we're going to have another bite at the Decepticons overthrowing each other pie. Also felt my old cynicism coming back a little when it turned out, surprise surprise, Fort Max survived.

Verity... is doing her plot cancer thing. I'm not sure that even if there is some pay off it's going to be worth her appearance. She feels like she's wandered in from one of the shitty Furman Earth minis, completely out of kilter with everything around her. Either she's been grafted on by someone else, or Roche can't write humans, and so far she's done nothing but take up vital panels. Yes, it's funny that the Wreckers all basically hate her, but there's still nothing she's been needed for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aequitas - for what it's worth.

Heinrad
2010-03-27, 05:11 AM
I CAN'T WAIT A MONTH!!!!! AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!

Er.... ahem...... It was very good. I want to see what happens next.

I do agree about the pointlessness of having Perceptor, Ironfist, and Top Spin trying to beat the pogies out of Overlord with their bare hands.

I'm loving this series.

zigzagger
2010-03-27, 10:09 AM
Mmm-hmm.

Refraining from slipping into my Ratchet fanboyisms, I can’t recall the last time I’ve been this attached to any group of characters in a Transformers book.

Rotorstorm was such a lovable prick, too. Yes, I saw his death coming, but when I turned that page…and, oh, the horrified expressions on the others’ faces….Well, at least he went out with a joke. Seeing what became of Maximus and Kick-Off, as well as Springer’s team, I’d say he got off easy.

The overall cast is handled surprisingly well given the length of this series. Something that past IDW writers have had trouble mastering, I think. I like how each issue chooses two or three focal characters, someone different each issue. To me, for this issue, it was Perceptor, Guzzle and the Jumpstarters. Here, we learn something rather interesting about Guzzle and his relationship to Kup. Which is good. He and Pyro seemed to be the less developed of the four new recruits, so I was pleased to see Rocherts offer a bit more insight as to who this typically underused Sparkabot is.

I thought I’d never say this, but I, uggh, like the “new” Perceptor. Rocherts’ interpretation of McCarthy’s “vision” of Perceptor, anyway. The balance between both roles as science officer and Wrecker is managed effectively and convincingly. Something, I’m sorry to say, that Tipton’s short in AHM #15 just failed to capture in my opinion. He’s so compelling here. I just love the way he takes charge.

Twin telepathy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TwinTelepathy) clichés notwithstanding, which I’m not at all that bothered by, the Jumpstarters are really coming into their own as well. Kind of already were since #1, but they generally tend to be grinning faces in the background. I never felt I really knew them until now. Topspin putting Ironfist in his place was a stand out moment. I loved it.

Quibbles? The same concern I had last issue. I don’t see what purpose Verity serves here yet. The Wreckers don’t seem all that fond of her either. She hasn’t done anything yet to advance the story or convince me that she will other than being a token nuisance.

This is a complete shift in tone from the first issue. The situation genuinely feels dire. Maybe I need more time to properly take it all in (I know I've had that problem in the past), but it’s difficult for me to discuss this series without resorting to hyperbole.

F**k it.

Yadda yadda, a well paced story with mystery, suspense, intrigue, action, yadda yadda, and even a guest appearance by Shockwave. Good stuff.

Cliffjumper
2010-03-27, 12:44 PM
I've always considered Perceptor capable of handling himself - he was Blaster's boss on Cybertron in the Marvel run, after all. Whereas in the cartoon, while fairly well characterised, he couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag, a couple of isolated incidents aside.

Denyer
2010-03-28, 03:34 AM
Just responses to a couple of points made at IDW, nary a word about the nifty framing device of Fisitron's blog, proper cliffhangers, fact that Impactor's thus far been treated as a character rather than a walking concept, etc...

I see 'BEST TRANSFORMERS COMIC EVER' from many, but I really can't see any kind of justification for it. It's fun, it's silly, and it has continuity references and enough fanwank to make it look like a piece of bukake, but it's not incredible. It's yet to outdo to Kup spotlight for certain.

Disagree. Same depth, but tighter writing and more plot, characters and references in the mixer. Ditto for the Kup story in Coda; that was the first time we got slapped with the type of compromises that would realistically get made in this old, ugly war. The spotlight only touched on that darkness.

Wreckers is right up there with the best -- many of which previous highlights were similarly building on and "making good" existing material by others. Each issue of the arc means something, which Furman seems to have abandoned as a writing style in the process of getting sucked into trade-as-the-end-product thinking. It also works as storytelling for anyone who hasn't been following along until now; it is possible to do this without throwing away existing readers/tone in the manner of AHM or the ongoing.

What story arcs do you feel beat it out? Personally I think it's one of the few TF comics that holds together as a good comic, not just good for TF comics. The only downside is that it serves to exemplify what we could have been getting for the past few years, which only a few spotlights have previously done. IDW have taken a better hash at the franchise than the last lot (and Marvel's successes have to be viewed in the context of their production) but lacked direction, quality control and consistency.

nothing compares to Warrior School
The Harder They Die, On The Edge Of Extinction, War Without End, State Games, Secrets, The Smelting Pool, Meltdown, A Savage Circle.

#7/#26 is underrated, but hardly the be-all-and-end-all of TF comics... and like too many of those I've just listed, is difficult to read in isolation from weaker material.

Cliffjumper
2010-03-28, 04:05 AM
I'm trying not to get excited about the series as a whole just yet, I remember how excited I was with The War Within at this point. I think it's got the potential to (fittingly) match Target, though.

It could also still nosedive badly. I'm pretty hopeful it can hold together, though, and have discovered a little faith. Plus thus far the excellence of the Wreckers has outweighed by misgivings about Overlord and Jubilee. To be honest, it's the first time in a long time that Transformers characters in a comic have felt alive and significant to me, and while it'd be nice if the plot turns out to match it, this one's already banked a lot that isn't going to be wiped out any time soon. Rotorstorm brought back the gutted feeling I had when favourites were wiped out in G2, compared to - say - Nightbeat dying in whatever comic he died a few months back, when my response was "So? He's not the proper Nightbeat".

Spotlight Kup, IMO, was ever so slightly overrated. It was very good, don't get me wrong, but it got highly praised simply partly because it was surrounded by dross. It's an excellent throwaway with some good imagination, great characterisation and an awesome ending (is Springer's special rescue plan some sort of plot device? No, it's bloody Trailbreaker, finally getting put to good use after all these years - ace!). But it got Unquiet Dead syndrome a little. Plus it was only one issue long, and ultimately got lost in the sea of mediocrity that was the Dead Furmanverse.

But this? This is special. Thus far, this hasn't been a good IDW comic or a good Transformers comic, it's been a good comic full stop.

bowspearer
2010-03-28, 11:09 AM
What the heck do these guys have against Hydradread. In AHM, they shoehorned Drench into him, and now they're shoehorning Stalker into him which is majorly out of character for Stalker- he's diabolocal but not sick and depraved like Hydradread.

While I'm glad that Euro characters are being used, I wish they'd actually get used in character.

Cliffjumper
2010-03-28, 11:30 AM
Yeh, I mean Magnus didn't say "I can't deal with that now!" once, and why isn't Arcee with Springer?

optimusskids
2010-03-28, 11:45 AM
In Roman mythology, Aequitas, also known as Aecetia, was the minor goddess of fair trade and honest merchants

so Aequitas will be Shattered Glass Swindle.

zigzagger
2010-03-28, 11:48 AM
Yeh, I mean Magnus didn't say "I can't deal with that now!" once, and why isn't Arcee with Springer?

Because Roche and Roberts are raping our childhoods?

In Roman mythology, Aequitas, also known as Aecetia, was the minor goddess of fair trade and honest merchants

so Aequitas will be Shattered Glass Swindle.

It does have a certain Quintesson motif about it, doesn't it? Hope that's not the case. At least not for this story.

Cliffjumper
2010-03-28, 12:00 PM
Strangely enough, my first thought was "hey, Swindle". Probably more influenced by the symmetry thing, though. Or it could be a massive bum steer as Guzzle spent the first two going around with a target on his face while Rotorstorm seemed like the flash bastard.

Springer85
2010-03-28, 01:04 PM
It's been a long time ago that I read a comic and thought: "Wow, this was aweosme! When's the next part?"

Good job on the series so far. :up:

bowspearer
2010-03-28, 01:08 PM
Yeh, I mean Magnus didn't say "I can't deal with that now!" once, and why isn't Arcee with Springer?

Because heaven forbid someone actually strongly care about characters other than Megatron or Prime.

Cliffjumper
2010-03-28, 01:21 PM
Because heaven forbid someone actually strongly care about characters other than Megatron or Prime.

What the Hell has that got to do with anything? Like, seriously? Is that actually aimed at anyone or anything, or did your brain just shit itself?

All I'm saying is there no reason Last Stand should be restricted by how characters have been protrayed or defined in the past.

Denyer
2010-03-28, 01:23 PM
they're shoehorning Stalker into him which is majorly out of character for Stalker- he's diabolocal but not sick and depraved like Hydradread.
The extent of their characterisation is close to zero. We have "A truly twisted mind (http://tfarchive.com/toys/techspecs/original-era/euro1992__Stalker.jpg)" versus "A weirdly twisted mind (http://tfarchive.com/toys/techspecs/original-era/euro1993__Hydradread_%281993%29.jpg)".

You're either going for parody or actually on this (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuinedFOREVER) wavelength.

Cliffjumper
2010-03-28, 01:26 PM
Bloody Hell, I'd forgotten just how bad the tech specs were from about '89 onwards. "Pulveriser is a Decepticon! He's sick and evil! He likes causing pain to Autobots and hates Autobots and kills Autobots! Loves ruining the good guys' day!". Do either of those actually count as serious characterisation?

bowspearer
2010-03-28, 01:32 PM
What the Hell has that got to do with anything? Like, seriously? Is that actually aimed at anyone or anything, or did you brain just shit itself?

All I'm saying is there no reason Last Stand should be restricted by how characters have been protrayed or defined in the past.

Because honestly, it's the same crap that's dogged the fandom for years- the moment Peter Cullen might not be Prime in the Live action movies and everyone suddenly cries out in outrage, but the moment someone equally cares about other characters, even obscure ones, the standard response is to go to "raped my childhood" sarcastic comments or several other things along the lines of "STFU U R TEH FANBOI SUK!!!!!!!!!!!!" and seriously, it's gotten way past old.

Sure it's one thing to take characters in other directions, but it's another thing to do the equivalent of portraying Starscream as Rumble for example, and that's exactly what happened here. Skyquake's shaking in his boots barely works- sure Overlord is powerful, but we're talking about a guy who is the biggest and baddest of a team that uses rapid fire missile launchers with the accuracy of sniper rifles and who according to his bio, isn't really scared of anyone.

Same deal with Stalker- he's diabolical, but his style of nastiness involves using his special power to trick any Autobot into doing things like firing on their own wounded or openly walking into a trap just when things are looking up and using their own communications to do it. He's not the "I'm the evil mad scientist who even gives the other bad guys the creeps". Kinda guy. The interesting this is that in that last scene, had those actions and dialogue not been changed at all, but Hydradread had been the character used, it would have worked perfectly.

Yes the IDW universe is a new take on things, but the reason why it's worked so well is because the core of the characters has been kept intact. Considering that for the vast majority of cases that has been the case, it really shouldn't be too much to expect the status quo to continue.

The extent of their characterisation is close to zero. We have "A truly twisted mind (http://tfarchive.com/toys/techspecs/original-era/euro1992__Stalker.jpg)" versus "A weirdly twisted mind (http://tfarchive.com/toys/techspecs/original-era/euro1993__Hydradread_%281993%29.jpg)".

And yet look at what follows it- Stalker is twisted, but he's the ironically twisted sort. He gets his jollies not from mutilating opponents but in getting his opponents to do it to each other. Completely different to Hydradread.

Denyer
2010-03-28, 01:47 PM
And yet look at what follows it- Stalker is twisted, but he's the ironically twisted sort. He gets his jollies not from mutilating opponents but in getting his opponents to do it to each other.
Where in the Nine Hells are you getting this from?

bowspearer
2010-03-28, 01:48 PM
Where in the Nine Hells are you getting this from?

Take another look at both techspecs, the whole thing though in each case, not just the twisted mind bit.

Denyer
2010-03-28, 01:55 PM
There's nothing on either that suggests they get their opponents to mutilate each other. You're making stuff up.

Cliffjumper
2010-03-28, 02:00 PM
Because honestly, it's the same crap that's dogged the fandom for years- the moment Peter Cullen might not be Prime in the Live action movies and everyone suddenly cries out in outrage, but the moment someone equally cares about other characters, even obscure ones, the standard response is to go to "raped my childhood" sarcastic comments or several other things along the lines of "STFU U R TEH FANBOI SUK!!!!!!!!!!!!" and seriously, it's gotten way past old.

Ahh, right. My bad, I assumed we were talking about something that's actually happening here, but it turns out you're on about all kinds of other rubbish - imagined slights, absolutist piffle and general chippiness.

Sure it's one thing to take characters in other directions, but it's another thing to do the equivalent of portraying Starscream as Rumble for example, and that's exactly what happened here. No, it's not what's happened here. What's happened here is swapping Rapido for Highbeam or something - two guys who have nothing to them but a near-generic, speed-written tech spec. You like 'em? Fair play. However, we're talking about one character being used in a situation where a slightly more applicable character also exists. Hydradread hasn't turned up going on about how he uses the ways of Metalikato or this week's the one where he'll overthrow Megatron and become leader of the Decepticons. Someone else has been used and is a good fit, if maybe not the cleanest.

Skyquake's shaking in his boots barely works- sure Overlord is powerful, but we're talking about a guy who is the biggest and baddest of a team that uses rapid fire missile launchers with the accuracy of sniper rifles and who according to his bio, isn't really scared of anyone.Do you think it could be because this Overlord is a Phase Sixer and basically unstoppable, and is a scary bastard? The unsubtle point is that Skyquake is as ahrd as nails and is still scared of Overlord.

it really shouldn't be too much to expect the status quo to continue.

Good point, writers should be totally bound by quick copy underpaid Hasbro hacks slapped on toy boxes 15+ years ago. We're not talking about any serious characterisation crafted by a genuine writer here, we're talking late-run tech specs.

Wait, are you just trolling to promote those plastic abortions you're shilling in your sig? Because that nearly makes sense...

bowspearer
2010-03-28, 02:01 PM
There's nothing on either that suggests they get their opponents to mutilate each other. You're making stuff up.

Oh really:

The master of the double bluff. Uses supertech 'Garble' system to protect Predator signals from Turbomaster spies. Then slyly scrambles their communications to wreak the havoc and confusion he loves.

You were saying?

Cliffjumper
2010-03-28, 02:04 PM
I dunno about you, but whenever I get confused I always mutilate the person next to me.

Denyer
2010-03-28, 02:06 PM
I'm not sure how to break this to you, but-

Quick ziggy! Hide the knives!

bowspearer
2010-03-28, 02:09 PM
Ahh, right. My bad, I assumed we were talking about something that's actually happening here, but it turns out you're on about all kinds of other rubbish - imagined slights, absolutist piffle and general chippiness.


Actually it's right on the money, if certain people here had comprehension skills better than a 2nd grader, they'd actually see that


No, it's not what's happened here. What's happened here is swapping Rapido for Highbeam or something - two guys who have nothing to them but a near-generic, speed-written tech spec. You like 'em? Fair play. However, we're talking about one character being used in a situation where a slightly more applicable character also exists. Hydradread hasn't turned up going on about how he uses the ways of Metalikato or this week's the one where he'll overthrow Megatron and become leader of the Decepticons. Someone else has been used and is a good fit, if maybe not the cleanest.

Oh puh-lease it goes way beyond slightly applicable to what actually gets characters off, in this case, it was way off the mark, as much as portraying Starscream as Rumble. Then again you're proving my entire point about the completely hypocritical crap that the fandom is rife with.

Do you think it could be because this Overlord is a Phase Sixer and basically unstoppable, and is a scary bastard? The unsubtle point is that Skyquake is as ahrd as nails and is still scared of Overlord.

Which is why I said it just still works, but barely. Skyquake isn't just hard as nails, he's arguably up there with Sixshot in the power stakes.

Good point, writers should be totally bound by quick copy underpaid Hasbro hacks slapped on toy boxes 15+ years ago. We're not talking about any serious characterisation crafted by a genuine writer here, we're talking late-run tech specs.

You mean the same techspecs that were on the very toys which are the sole reason G2 and subsequently everything else TF related actually surfaced?

Cliffjumper
2010-03-28, 02:24 PM
Then again you're proving my entire point about the completely hypocritical crap that the fandom is rife with.

Feel free to **** off and find another fandom then.

Skyquake isn't just hard as nails, he's arguably up there with Sixshot in the power stakes.

How? What's that actually based on?

You mean the same techspecs that were on the very toys which are the sole reason G2 and subsequently everything else TF related actually surfaced?

No, I don't mean the ones that were done by writers who either cared about what they were doing, or were good enough that they still managed to come up with gold. Those petered out by about '88/89 (and TBH were a bit spottier from 86-ish). I mean the Euro exclusive ones that were the same embarrassing, boasting generic tosh which ended up on most of the G2 cards, and a lot of other stuff since.

optimusskids
2010-03-28, 02:37 PM
Hydradread and Deluge are particularly bad examples of very very lazy writers . I had to check to make sure TFU hadn't posted the same tech spec twice by accident but the writer has cunningly disguised his laziness by subtly rearranging some words


G2 Hydradread

"Let me study the battle plans. I'll think up something really unpleasent - and then make it even nastier."

A wierdly twisted mind. He devises hideous attack methods that can astonish even the most veteran Decepticons. Always in a world of his own, plotting something horrible. As a car, surprises with fast-action water power. Transforms into an equally well-armed attacking robot




G2 Deluge

Let me study the battle plans. I'll think up something really unpleasant - and then make it even nastier."

With a twisted mind, he devises hideous attack methods that can astonish even veteran Decepticons! He lives in a world of his own, horribly plotting his next move. He can surprise with fast-action water power as a car, and convert to an equally well-armed attack robot

Denyer
2010-03-28, 04:24 PM
Actually it's right on the money, if certain people here had comprehension skills better than a 2nd grader,
Been there, taught that.

I'd be amazed if problems you've experienced with the fandom amount to more than you talking out of your arse and getting called on it.

Cliffjumper
2010-03-28, 05:56 PM
Been there, taught that.

Any chance you hung on to the materials for teaching the difference between confusion and mutilation?

Back on topic, bearing in mind that I've only skim-read the majority of IDW's stuff, have I missed deaths for Roadbuster, Whirl, Broadside and Sandstorm, or are they just elsewhere/not Wreckers in IDW?

Auntie Slag
2010-03-28, 06:03 PM
Ooh, I know this. Here's a quote from Nick Roche on OneShallStand.com (I read it just now via the link in your sig):

"We've made some radical additions to the team though -at the expense of classic members, such as Roadbuster, Whirl, Sandstorm and Broadside - so that plays into the idea that it's a rotating roster of potential bodybags making up the team. Where are those missing Wreckers? Not in this series, but not written-off either. The nice time-cushion between All Hail Megatron and the relaunch lets us tuck things mysteriously away until later..."

Cliffjumper
2010-03-28, 06:16 PM
Aces. IDW continuity cn be a bit mutilating at times.

I have big love for Roadbuster. I remember reading "Peace" some time after "Time Wars" and thinking "Yay! Roadbuster made it!". Three pages later, pop goes his head. :( But he had a cool name, and his toy is bigger than the sun and has an Action Man-level set of kit. Stupid Takatoku/Bandai. It's getting to the point where I'm getting really really tempted by the CM Gokin (http://www.hlj.com/product/CMS65248), despite it costing about a hundred and fifty quid, being the wrong colours and probably about an inch tall. Plus Whirl's Shockwave's long lost brother, two siblings torn apart by war.

Bah. I bet they even use the Wrong Model for Broadside.

Red Dave Prime
2010-03-28, 08:55 PM
What just happened in this thread?

@bowspearer - surely you can see the differience in changing minor/ background characters slightly compared with altering major, well-established characters? Prime and Megatron were the main characters of the cartoon and comic series as opposed to G2 characters who have little more then the tech specs (however well written or not as the case may be)?

Cliffjumper
2010-03-28, 09:12 PM
What just happened in this thread?

Proof that some Transformers fans will always find something to get all het up about in anything new, no matter how insignificant.

Warcry
2010-03-28, 11:44 PM
It's getting to the point where I'm getting really really tempted by the CM Gokin (http://www.hlj.com/product/CMS65248), despite it costing about a hundred and fifty quid, being the wrong colours and probably about an inch tall.
Apparently he's about 18 centimetres tall (http://www.collectiondx.com/news_item/10272008/official_pictures_of_cms_brave_gokin_21_combat_caliber), so he'd be more or less the same size as Classics Jetfire. He looks pretty neat, it has to be said, and TBH I like this colour scheme a lot more than the one that was actually used for Roadbuster. :)

Back on topic, bearing in mind that I've only skim-read the majority of IDW's stuff, have I missed deaths for Roadbuster, Whirl, Broadside and Sandstorm, or are they just elsewhere/not Wreckers in IDW?
If I remember right (and baring in mind the difficulty inherent in identifying a lot of the characters in the ongoing) Roadbuster, Broadside and Sandstorm are puttering around on Earth not doing much.

Heinrad
2010-03-29, 02:26 AM
The real reason Roadbuster's not in Last Stand of the Wreckers:

Magnus: "I'm sorry, Roadbuster, but you can't come along."

Roadbuster: "Why? You're going to need the all firepower I've got!"

Magnus: "Because..... well...... you won't fit."

Roadbuster: -standing about twice as tall as Magnus' shuttle, looming over everybody else- "It's not my fault. Blame that McCarthy idiot."

minimus-minor
2010-03-29, 03:10 AM
My thoughts at http://comicbookrevolution.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=295:transformers-last-stand-of-the-wreckers-3-review&catid=85:idw&Itemid=96

What do you think?

zigzagger
2010-03-29, 03:25 AM
My thoughts at http://comicbookrevolution.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=295:transformers-last-stand-of-the-wreckers-3-review&catid=85:idw&Itemid=96

What do you think?

You mind if I just move this to the issue #3 reaction thread (http://tfarchive.com/community/showthread.php?t=48446)?

Jaynz
2010-03-29, 03:49 AM
Stupid Takatoku/Bandai. It's getting to the point where I'm getting really really tempted by the CM Gokin (http://www.hlj.com/product/CMS65248), despite it costing about a hundred and fifty quid, being the wrong colours and probably about an inch tall.

There are two main figures for CM Gokin Dvorack, according to Hobby Japan. The other one looked kind of cool as well. I'll dig out the issue tommorow morning and get a picture up here for you.

minimus-minor
2010-03-29, 06:04 AM
Am I the only one who likes Verity's comeback?

And I think that R & R have done a great job. This is way better than the stuff Costa and Figueroa are churning out (though I don't mind that either).

Cliffjumper
2010-03-29, 07:03 AM
There are two main figures for CM Gokin Dvorack, according to Hobby Japan. The other one looked kind of cool as well. I'll dig out the issue tommorow morning and get a picture up here for you.

Yeh, there was a greeny one and a grey/orange one as well - the latter is heavily reduced at HLJ (http://www.hlj.com/product/CMS65256), but I'm really not that mad on the colours. The only Brave Gokin I have is Baldios (http://counter-x.net/baldios/index.html#review), and he's good, but not great for the amount the thing cost... It's a Hell of a lot to spend on a figure, and doesn't work out much cheaper than a complete original Roadbuster (and there's always a chance you'll fluke onto one of those, not going to happen with somethinglike the Gokin).

At one point, I did have all the Marvel Wreckers (barring Impactor and Rack 'n' Ruin :() in G1 toy form... To say you could tell they weren't designed for the purpose would be an understatement, they displayed together not so good...

Halfshell
2010-03-29, 05:00 PM
Thoroughly unenjoyable

You're mean. :(

Right, I tried reading this thread, but I've had very little sleep, am massively caffeinated and I'm still on a post-Wembley hangover so my brain basically shut down for large chunks of it.

I think I saw something about characters not being allowed to crack wise whilst they kill Autobots because there's other characters who are a bit sadistic? Then I just sort of tuned out and started thinking about bunny rabbits with pancakes on their heads.

Anyway, the comic. Awesome. Overlord is A LARGE HAM and I love him for it. An ultimate goal of "getting back at Megatron" seems a little trite and disappointing, but I can cope. Not sure why Shockwave needs to be in it, beyond explaining why he's not been in it already. But I'm sure that'll come back and be explored later, seeing as the story's being written by actual writers.

I like that there was little attempt to hide "and we're just going to put Verity in a box for a bit so she doesn't get in the way of the plot, then take her out again at the end so she isn't completely sidelined." I hope she has an eventual plot function.

Guzzle is awesome. Snide little bastard. I've always liked Guzzle.

I am slightly scared by the fact that I needed a full minute before I could turn the page after that line from Rotorstorm. Fell on my side and had an attack of hysterical fangasms, laughing so gleefully. Like I said, not much sleep. Furman couldn't have written that gag. Well, he could have done, but it would have suffocated under its own smugness.

Oh - and "out of phase" as a plot maguffin, but in a straightforward way. You can still see it, you just can't get at it. Sensible.

I'm Aequitus, incidentally.

Heinrad
2010-03-29, 05:10 PM
Am I the only one who likes Verity's comeback?



I like the fact that she's back, but she picked the worst possible time to pull the "Spridle and Chim-Chim" trick. She can't keep up with the Wreckers on foot, and protecting her means that at least one Wrecker will have to hang back(that being said, it's not like said Wrecker can't hang back and shoot at things instead of using his fists). She'd have been a lot safer hanging out with Ultra Magnus.

Unless hanging out with Ultra Magnus is worse than being stuck in Overlord's personal playground, of course......

Auntie Slag
2010-03-29, 07:29 PM
One thing that gets me a little is that Pyro is very nice. He's thoughtful, he's considerate of others (Topspin), and Perceptor asks him to protect Verity whilst the others go attack Overlord... when you've got Pyro remaining behind... whose the largest Wrecker of them all.

I'm sure it's for a reason. Roche & Roberts must have something waiting for this character, but right now he's the politest, nicest Wrecker I've seen. Maybe seeing Verity splattered across the floor will be enough to make him go apeshit and start ripping the place apart?

My love for you is ticking clock... bERSERKER!.

Something's gonna wind him up eventually. Oh, and this is based upon my knowledge of him in this issue only. I've not really seen the previous issues, maybe he has already gone loopy and now he's back on the Seroxat?

Cliffjumper
2010-03-29, 07:31 PM
You're mean. :(

Yeh, sorry, force of habit with IDW comics.

Wasn't there a Guzzle Club at Transfans at some point? I have no idea whether I was a member or not... Not sure if it was coincidence or not, but on the weekend when trawling listings there was one going for about a tenner, it'd be ace if it was Wrecker-related.

On a similar note to the piece of plumbing in Kup's mouth, does Perceptor's crosshairs-eye really bug anyone else, or is it just me?

Oh, and pretty much everyone I've met so far today has been hungover... for the ones around here, if England win the World Cup it's going to be an anticlimax. God knows the state actual Southampton is in; it's probably closed for the day...

zigzagger
2010-03-30, 06:19 AM
altough maybe he will be whom kup was sent to retrieve.

Altough that could be Grimlock as well (isnt he in the last resort prison?)

Probably. It's kinda-sorta telegraphed by Shockwave's brief appearance.

But hey, who knows, Rocherts could throw a curve ball. It could be Longtooth.

**runs and hides**

Ackula
2010-03-30, 06:50 AM
I've avoided posting in here because of the level of complete strangeness that was exhibited by some folks, not pointing fingers, but what the Hell?

This comic is so brilliant. Love it. I was a late comer to the IDW stories as it were, and got burned out so fast during AHM that I could barely read an issue of the god awful ongoing, or that abortion Bumblebee. But damn this shit is ace!

A few things though, I really hope Verity serves some function, as she seems to be the only real glaring flaw in the series thus far. I'm hoping for a grisly death to illustrate just how idiotic it was to bring her along, but I'll probably be disappointed. I was glad she was in the first issue, as it seemed to be a bit of continuity clean up following the aftermath of AHM. Now she is just annoying me on the level of some ADHD Armada kid.

Love the fact that they wrote Rotorstorm so well that I actually became attached enough to feel shocked when I turned the page to see his head blow wide open. But disappointed too, which was a bit surprising.

Oh, and I don't mind Kup's cy-gar or whatever it is, or Sniperceptor too much. I actually kinda love what they are doing with Perceptor's character here.

:up::up:

Halfshell
2010-03-30, 05:07 PM
On a similar note to the piece of plumbing in Kup's mouth, does Perceptor's crosshairs-eye really bug anyone else, or is it just me?

I just want to reach into the page and squeeze it down to a proper size.

I wonder what happened to the trophy... if it made it to the cabinet, or if Papa Waigo ate it, as seemed likely in the post-match confusion.

zigzagger
2010-04-21, 12:44 AM
This is your all purpose Transformers: Last Stand of the Wreckers #4 reaction and discussion thread. Join us. The Kool-Aid is fabulous.

Out April 21st (at least in North America).

May be delayed until next week in Europe:
http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopic.php?t=7737

If by some chance this is not the case and if anyone in the UK was able to pick the issue up this week, please let us know :)

Preview @ Comics Continuum (http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/1004/20/idwfirsts.htm).

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/7942/lsotw4page1.th.jpg (http://img704.imageshack.us/i/lsotw4page1.jpg/)http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/4171/lsotw4page2.th.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/lsotw4page2.jpg/)http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/8342/lsotw4page3.th.jpg (http://img690.imageshack.us/i/lsotw4page3.jpg/)http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9854/lsotw4page4.th.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/i/lsotw4page4.jpg/)http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/5474/lsotw4page5.th.jpg (http://img85.imageshack.us/i/lsotw4page5.jpg/)

Springer85
2010-04-21, 10:05 AM
*sigh* I need to wait a week longer for this comic :wall:

Commander Shockwav
2010-04-21, 11:41 PM
Fun times!

Rocherts have pressed the pedal to the metal from the word go with this series, and they'll be damned if you can find the brakes!

Before I go any further, I have a request. Nay, a demand. An IDW TF profiles book must happen, and I am insistent that all entries be written by Rocherts. How awesome was that character profile of Ironfist?

Anyway, I think we can all safely say now that Last Stand is the best TF miniseries IDW has produced to date.

Rocherts again knocks this sucker out of the park, writing a tale that pretty much has everything you'd ever want out of a TF comic in it (ala issues #1, #2 and #3). It displays a nice balance between intense storytelling and character building. Sprinkle in a dash of witty sarcasm, tongue-in-cheek humor, mystery, and intrigue and well, what's there not to love, really?

Ironfist is quickly becoming one of my favorite TF characters....and he didn't exist to me three months ago! That speaks volumes about the writers. They have done a masterful job of balancing character development and weaving it into a highly intense storyline where it doesn't even seem like there's a moment to breath.

The artwork was somewhat improved upon over the last few issues, though still a bit cluttered at times. But you know what? I'll take it. Give me a story this good, and I'd care less if Manny Galan made a return....maybe.

The only weak bit in this story was the whole "to turn on this mega-computer, you must kill yourself" bit. Very contrived and illogical, given it's a computer designed to mete out justice.

Give it an "A". Absolutely solid stuff.

Warcry
2010-04-23, 05:40 AM
I enjoyed this one, but it wasn't quite the same insane 200 MPH ride from start to finish that the last issue was. Most of the issue was spent setting the scene for the finale, but we still got a few nice character moments sprinkled in. Pyro's cowardice, Ironfist's self-loathing, Topspin's willingness to die to spare his brother any more pain...wow. I feel like I know these guys better after four issues than I know most of the cast in the main book who've been around for five-plus years. And although Roche and Roberts have done a great job with these guys, most of the blame for that one-sided comparison that be placed squarely on the shoulders of Furman, McCarthy and Costa for not doing the same with the characters that they wrote.

But unlike most 'penultimate' issues in the various IDW miniseries I've read, I can honestly say I have no idea how this one is going to end. If none of our heroes made it back at story's end, I wouldn't be surprised at all. But I genuinely care about the fate of each and every one of them -- and to me that's the biggest compliment I can give to the writers.

zigzagger
2010-04-24, 01:20 AM
Oh my, oh my...so much fan-service. I’ll admit it, when it comes to this series it’s a guilty pleasure of mine. Add in all those fun, borderline wanky, references from the previous three issues and you got one hell of a bukake session going on here. But as I said once before, it’s only apparent to those who get the references – some of which I even had to double-check. Not only is Squadron X made up of minor Decepticon characters from the olden Marvel days (Macabre I immediately recognized – he’s pretty distinct), we have a Nautilus cameo and, hey, how about that, there’s Rack ‘n’ Ruin kickin’ it with the original Wreckers line-up. I normally have very little tolerance towards this sort of thing (I mean, I absolutely despised it in War and Peace), but never has this kind of "fanwank" made me feel so giddy.

Just a few notes here:

Like the previous issues, the story breaks away from the action to give us a few character portraits – this time for Pyro, Impactor, and Ironfist. The Impactor/Springer sub-plot is coming along, though there are still a few lingering “hows” and “whys”. Was also nice to finally get a little insight as to who Pyro is…

Then there’s Ironfist (who got his very own profile this issue). What a wonderfully charming character he is. He’s arguably the star of the show. More so than Springer, really. I’m suddenly hankering for a Spotlight: Ironfist now. I mean, if Drift can have one (and a mini-series, for ****’s sake), surely an actual preexisting character can as well?

No? :(

On a different note, I was, however, hoping for a little bit more on the Guzzle/Kup side of things.

Aequitas – Hmm, guess I was expecting something else. I’m not entirely sure what that was, though :o Surely it wasn't a person since, if I recall, it was never implied to being...well, anything.

Ahem.

Right, anyhow, after giving it some thought, the "spark donation" thing didn't seem as contrived as I initially had thought. It’s a rather extreme failsafe, but it kind of makes sense to me considering all the horrible secrets Aequitas is storing.

Other stuff:

- Impactor interrupting Snare’s parting soliloquy. Chilling.

- Ironfist and Pyro’s objection to being “second-stringers”. Oh, the irony…

- Springer finding the “off switch” in Stalker’s face. Man, that was a satisfying death-scene. Ah! I mean, seriously, what the hell was he doing to Twin Twist’s face?! Cripes, that was horrific.

- Perceptor is a bastard and I love him for it.

Good stuff, overall, though a shift down from the manic pace of issue 3. This one is just bursting with exposition, it just barely manages to find breathing space.

wyze2099
2010-04-24, 04:10 AM
I just finished reading #3 and #4 (the first and only issues I've read of the series -- I was late in catching the bandwagon, and those were the only issues my comic shop had).

I have to echo the others' sentiments above: this series is fan-freaking-tastic. It's loaded with great characters and great uses of those characters. And not only is it fast-paced, it's well-paced, so that even the slower character moments feel like they belong in the story without dragging everything down. In fact, if #4 were as fast-paced as #3, the series as a whole would be all the poorer for it; we need the breather, the character explorations, and the ramping tension in order for the climax to be truly meaningful.

It's nice to see Verity again. She's actually one of my favorite human characters in the TF franchise, and she's used very well here. The story plays up her tough-girl shtick, and her penchant for nonstop complaining (a trait that's apparently irritated quite a few fans, but I appreciate it for the coping mechanism it is). Her "tell me a story" scene with Iron Fist was especially a great, human moment that speaks to her gentler side.

And yeah, speaking of Ironfist, I absolutely love Roche and Roberts' take on this character. Prior to the mini, my only exposure to the character was the TFArchive RPG, where he's played as more of a Rorshach-type character. But in the mini, he's an awesome shout-out to the best and worst aspects of TF fanboys. I like his quirks, and I can't help but feel for the guy. He's a colossal geek -- like a typical TF fanboy. He is quick to criticize any deviation from his own vision of the way the universe should work --like a typical fanboy. And he's nowhere near the badass his heroes are -- like a, you guessed it. His bio at the end was icing on the cake. I'd really want to see profiles for the rest of the Wreckers as well (in the TPB, if possible), but I can see why they'd do that for Ironfist in particular. The "this wiki is a stub" disclaimer at the bottom of the profile almost had me laughing out loud on the bus ride home from the comic book store.

Genius.

Denyer
2010-04-24, 07:32 AM
What's Prowl up to, or is he genuinely being magnanimous?

Got my head around the concept of Aequitas, I think... but why would rescuing it be a priority? Presumably if one can be built, so can another. Destroy the thing. Of course, this may simply be a cover, and we're going to get chewy-centered payoff to what Ironfist is muttering about.

I really like the fact Impactor's been made into a character rather than simply a plot device...

zigzagger
2010-04-25, 02:33 AM
What's Prowl up to, or is he genuinely being magnanimous?

I'd like to think there's some underlying motive. I kind of thought that since issue 1. It is Roche's pre-lobotomized version of Prowl, after all. Honestly don't care if it doesn't gel all that well with Costa's at this point.

Right, in other news, if anyone is interested, it would seem that a couple places in the UK have been shipping books on time despite natural disasters:
http://reedcomics.com/

Warcry
2010-04-25, 03:36 AM
I'd like to think there's some underlying motive. I kind of thought that since issue 1. It is Roche's pre-lobotomized version of Prowl, after all. Honestly don't care if it doesn't gel all that well with Costa's at this point.
I agree that Prowl probably had an ulterior motive, but I don't think there's anything ultra-diabolical at work. It's probably as simple as Prowl saying "No, Wheeljack (or Jetfire/Crosshairs/Skyfall/whoever) is useful. Take Ironfist, no one will care if he dies."

Especially if he knew they'd have to feed someone to Aequitas to turn it on -- he wouldn't want to put someone he valued in that position.

Terome
2010-04-25, 02:19 PM
But Ironfist -is- useful. His inaccurate, sugar-coated datatracks about the Wreckers, which Prowl went out of his way to commend him on, could be a great asset to High Command. Even Ultra Magnus isn't allowed to look too closely at what the Wreckers get up to and when Impactor's war crimes were brought to light, he was treated more harshly than anyone was expecting.

Prowl does not like Springer, does not like the rogue elements of the Autobots that he represents and has already taken some drastic steps to bring them to heel. He is definitely up to something.

Terome
2010-04-25, 02:45 PM
Oh damn, and I just realised - Guzzle, who has a very legitimate grudge against Kup, handled Kup's cigar for a little while. That cigar which stops him from going crazy and possibly dying in a horrible way.

This could lead to problems.

Warcry
2010-04-25, 03:49 PM
Oh damn, and I just realised - Guzzle, who has a very legitimate grudge against Kup, handled Kup's cigar for a little while. That cigar which stops him from going crazy and possibly dying in a horrible way.

This could lead to problems.
On the other hand, Kup going batshit insane might be a good thing, considering how powerful he seemed to be when he was on that planet. The Wreckers can use every bit of help they can get against Overlord, since he seems to be running in God Mode at the moment.

Red Dave Prime
2010-04-26, 10:16 AM
Silly question but does Kup (or anyone else for that matter outside of Prowl and Springer) know that Kup is a Pretender? Is it possible that he actually has untapped abilities / strengths that might yet surface?

Just thinking aloud really. Had to wait for this (and prowl but thats not got anywhere near the interest level), roll on thursday.

Springer85
2010-04-28, 10:50 PM
Well, I went and bought all the issues. I was planning on waiting for the trade, but talking to Blackjack over PM made me want to buy them ASAP. I was suprised the issues were still there in the store. Read all four issues on the way home in the train and now I just can't wait for the next one.

It's one big rollercoaster ride and to be honest, I wish that the Ongoing was written like this. One can always hope :)

minimus-minor
2010-04-29, 09:39 AM
my thorts on LSOTW #4. Sry, cant find reaction thread.

http://comicbookrevolution.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=348:transformers-last-stand-of-the-wreckers-4-review

Blackjack
2010-04-29, 10:23 AM
my thorts on LSOTW #4. Sry, cant find reaction thread.

http://comicbookrevolution.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=348:transformers-last-stand-of-the-wreckers-4-review

C'mon... this isn't the first time. Are you even trying to look for it? It's in the 'New Comics Hub' section.

http://www.tfarchive.com/community/showthread.php?t=48568
http://www.tfarchive.com/community/showthread.php?t=48567

Blackjack
2010-04-29, 10:25 AM
Silly question but does Kup (or anyone else for that matter outside of Prowl and Springer) know that Kup is a Pretender? Is it possible that he actually has untapped abilities / strengths that might yet surface?

Perceptor should know about it, I think... but I don't really think that the 'Pretender shell' would do much than be a plot device for Roche to retcon Kup's appearance in AHM with his 'death' in Spotlight Kup.

Red Dave Prime
2010-05-01, 12:38 PM
Quite awesome this. Most of you have all pointed out the high points already so I want go over old ground. Needless to say, IDW should look at the reaction to this and try and take something from it and bring it in to ongoing. I'm not saying roche and roberts should write everything but what they've done here is very water tight and flows excellently. Worth pointing out that there is more drama here in this small, simple story than has been achieved with the other more epic stories. And Topspin and twin twists deaths are so excellently done I reckon its the high point of IDWs whole run. Twist is so utterly broken and defeated and Topspins actions feel more like a case of ineveitability then heroics.

Heres hoping issue 5 can hold the quality. Endings are always tricky, especially when what went before was so good. I have a feeling that because we all have so many ideas about what we think would make a good ending that the ending may disappoint but I cant imagine it taking away from the overall story... even if Metroplex suddenly appears and stamps on overlord just as the con is saying "I AM OVER..." while bellowing " I AM METROPLEX!"

Savannahtron
2010-05-02, 11:14 AM
So, just got all 4 issues in the mail yesterday. I am loving the story.

My take on it is that Overlord wants the info from Aequitas because it calculates guilt, mitigation, accountabilty for his final showdown with Megs. As seen earlier, Megs had Shockwave infect Overlord so that Overlord could not look into Megs' spark and see what it would take to bring Megs down.

Definitely like the character shift for Overlord instead of being a broken down, unrepairable bot. He's quite the sociopath.

Thing is, Megs just bides his time and will appear just when Overlord is about to finish the Wreckers off and destroy him. I have a feeling that what Overlord did to Maximus will be nothing in comparison.

Shockwave and Megs go way back. I have a hard time believing Shockwave would simply debug Overlord and completely screw Megs over. Something lies beneath the surface and undoubtedly, Shockwave will have something to due with Megs dominance over Overlord.

All in all, I am pleased with the series and am excited about issue 5.

Denyer
2010-05-02, 12:38 PM
Mmm, you might be onto something... plus Overlord's giving winners a choice between fighting him and suicide; no shortage of possible willing candidates to switch the machine on, then.

zigzagger
2010-05-02, 01:21 PM
As seen earlier, Megs had Shockwave infect Overlord so that Overlord could not look into Megs' spark and see what it would take to bring Megs down.


I'm not sure if you've read the earlier IDW stuff, specifically the Furman era stuff, but I was under the impression that the Achilles Virus that Shockwave was referring to was something along the lines of Sixshot's "off-switch". And with Overlord being a phase-sixer himself, who probably had the same kill switch installed, I kind of figured that was the "tactical disadvantage" he was speaking of.

Blackjack
2010-05-03, 11:21 AM
Overlord did say that the Achilles Virus made him unable to face Megatron or figure out Megs' weakness or something along those lines anyway. But then, Overlord does have a penchant for dramatic exposition....

Savannahtron
2010-05-03, 11:49 AM
By Prime's faceplate!

Actually, have not read any of the other IDW stuff, but that was what I picked up on as well. I'm waiting to see all of the Cons' head go boom pg 1 issue 5.

Halfshell
2010-05-04, 05:01 PM
Not only is Squadron X made up of minor Decepticon characters from the olden Marvel days (Macabre I immediately recognized – he’s pretty distinct), we have a Nautilus cameo and, hey, how about that, there’s Rack ‘n’ Ruin kickin’ it with the original Wreckers line-up.

Awesome that was. :) Mayhem Attack Squad it should have been. :(

Aequitas – Hmm, guess I was expecting something else. I’m not entirely sure what that was, though :o Surely it wasn't a person since, if I recall, it was never implied to being...well, anything.

I was expecting something relating to the name. Which means justice. Given that it's a giant prison world... it makes perfect sense.

Lovely stuff all round, and I guessed from the end of the flashback that things didn't quite go down as the story says. Ironfist's realisation at the end confirms it... whaddawe reckon? Impy just strolled into the prison cells and executed them, without the breakout?

I want more. Now.

Denyer
2010-05-04, 06:06 PM
Impy just strolled into the prison cells and executed them, without the breakout?
Smart money, if you ask me.

Which is perfectly reasonable, in the same way that countless murders by the Joker are Batman's responsibility for not just killing the ****er, but High Command probably feels sets a bad precedent or something.

Terome
2010-05-04, 07:11 PM
I've an inkling that Springer's massive chest wound might also have a darker origin to it outside of the official account.

Cliffjumper
2010-05-04, 09:41 PM
My God this is a fantastic comic. It's actually good enough to outweigh all the shit IDW have foisted upon us - they're a one hit wonder, but what a bloody hit. Characterisation, emotion, intrigue, craft - all the things that have been surgically removed from their previous output up there in gloriously squickish art.

Squadron X? Calling all TF pencillers: that's how you do homages. Not some Diaclone standing in a crowd scene, give it a point.

I've the most horrible feeling they're all going to die, bar maybe Perceptor (I am right in thinking these dudes are CG2 vets, right? Perceptor in CG2 makes IDW Prowl look like something in the cartoon) and Kup. The Jumpstarters surprised me, I'll be honest. One way or another, Impactor isn't going to be walking away either.

Regarding Megatron, I think it'd be fabulous if Overlord was killed by someone/everyone else. He goes through all of this, and Megatron still doesn't even pay him any attention.


Which is perfectly reasonable, in the same way that countless murders by the Joker are Batman's responsibility for not just killing the ****er, but High Command probably feels sets a bad precedent or something.

**** yeh, I have faith in the writers to not see it in black or white. Someone's got to make the hard decisions, and if that is what happens, Impactor's Stoneface Vimes.

The Snare thing was along the same lines, too, as far as I'm concerned - Snare helped them for his own reasons, and if he wasn't a Decepticon he wouldn't have been there in the first place. He'd got himself into that mess and on another day with Skyquake in command he'd be happily blowing their heads off. That he's decided his current commander is too much of a nutter does not mean his mortal enemies have to listen to his self-important wittering.

Halfshell
2010-05-05, 08:21 AM
Agreed on Overlord's fate. I don't see Megatron suddenly turning up in the last issue as being anything other than rubbish.

I agree that Prowl probably had an ulterior motive

You're Prowl.

The Wreckers are idolised, but you don't agree with their methods.

There's a great big conspiracy to cover up the actions of one of their most famous members.

There's no way you can expose it yourself without it looking like you're being a vindictive prick.

You have the power of veto over their members. So you select their biggest fan. The Autobot who idolises them to the point of obsession. The self-appointed Keeper of the Myth. The one who publishes detailed logs on everything that the team ever did.

You send him on a mission with them to where you know the rogue Autobot is being held.

You stand back and let nature run its course.

Cliffjumper
2010-05-05, 01:59 PM
Agreed on Overlord's fate. I don't see Megatron suddenly turning up in the last issue as being anything other than rubbish.

I don't know, the silent idiot kerbstomp might have worked, but they used that one for Ramjet.

I'm mainly hoping that Roberts and Roche salt the Earth, at least in terms of Overlord. If he survives a career in the ongoing getting watered down or ****ed around with beckons.

Fiver says Springer tried to shield Squadron X and Impactor shot through him too.

Oh, and I think think think I found a fault - Broadside uses the toy/Dreamwave/most of the cartoon model, or the basis thereof. BOOOOO!!!!

Terome
2010-05-05, 03:00 PM
Oh, and I think think think I found a fault - Broadside uses the toy/Dreamwave/most of the cartoon model, or the basis thereof. BOOOOO!!!!

To be fair, I'm pretty sure he looks just the way he did in Stormbringer, and remember that we're dealing with guys who make a good stab at not directly contradicting previous material.

On that, where does Scoop fit into all this? Eh?

Cliffjumper
2010-05-05, 03:09 PM
Wait, which one was Stormbringer? Is that the one about the kid who's a secret agent?

Halfshell
2010-05-05, 03:11 PM
Yes.

Terome
2010-05-05, 03:12 PM
Yeah, but if you think about, it's his little dog who does most of the work.

Halfshell
2010-05-05, 03:17 PM
Yeah, but if you think about, it's his little dog who does most of the work.

True for all boys that age.

Auntie Slag
2010-05-06, 03:34 PM
Ooh, just seen Stalkers handiwork on Twin Twist. I was expecting some pretty nasty stuff based on all the things in Eugenesis (all the things that happened to Thunderclash, for instance).

I knew it had the potential to be as nasty as my imagination, but I wasn't too shocked. Sunstreaker's head in the -tion series seems worse to me. I can still see the scars on my arms and the walls from that one.

Cliffjumper
2010-05-09, 10:45 PM
Oh, and the very best bit? Perceptor cutting Jubilee down at the end. She's all "This is what we call keepaway, it's not drooling it's dribbling!" and Perceptor's all "Shut the **** up, playtime's over, you do not count". I just hope they get around to justifying her inclusion at some point (it's yet to be done - Ironfist would happily recount Wreckers stories to anyone, whether they asked or not and whether they knew them or not). Though I do think her inclusion can be justified if she dies horribly next issue. It doesn't have to be anything in the greater plot, but if she'd just die somehow from a building falling on her, or a stray harpoon, or that she's somehow got a detention chip in her eyeball or something, it'd be the icing on the cake.

Red Dave Prime
2010-05-10, 11:12 AM
I just hope they get around to justifying her inclusion at some point (it's yet to be done - Ironfist would happily recount Wreckers stories to anyone, whether they asked or not and whether they knew them or not).

I disagree sir. I'm guessing every autobot who signed up to be a wrecker would know of the squadron x thing, plus it does kinda tie up the fact she vanished from the main plot. With Hunter Being killed in AHM we just need the where abouts of that other main human character... whats his name again?

Blackjack
2010-05-10, 11:43 AM
I don't really want to know (nor care) about the whereabouts of the human trio from -ions. The gradual shuffling into the background for them throughout Escalation and Devastation is enough, and Hunter's little stint in Max Dinos, and the trio's scene at the epilogue, is a decent enough exit for the three.

Don't really need any much elaboration, and I'm a little surprised at R'n'R including Verity in LSOTW. Other than giving off snappy remarks (which could easily be filled by another obscure character which they could develop) she had done jack shit to the story other than take up space.

Like Cliffy, I hope there will be a pay-off to her continual presence.

Cliffjumper
2010-05-10, 02:10 PM
I'm guessing every autobot who signed up to be a wrecker would know of the squadron x thing

Hence "whether they asked or not". There are plenty of indications that he bangs on about the Wreckers left, right and centre - such as the earlier discussions about Impactor and other name-dropping, which wasn't all for Boom-Boom's benefit.

Facillitating a flashback sequence does not justify the inclusion of a character, it could have been told in a number of other ways.

I don't know what's happened to Hunter, TBH - if I read the comic which covered it it certainly proved memorable. I'm not really losing any sleep over it, and likewise wouldn't over Sari. And, well, the other one - Jimmy something or other, IIRC he had another cartoony surname which instantly made you remember you were reading a comic based on a kids' toyline rather than something proper. Did he even have an attempt at a personality?

The Infiltration kids were shit. They were a big factor in the comics they appeared in being shit (my main memory is of some whiny shit from Avril about how no-one ever loved her at the start of "Bit of an Escalation But We'll Be Back in the Same Dross in Six Issues", which sticks in my mind because it's the first time I've ever wanted to somehow reach into a comic frame and stab a character in the eye with a fork). They should be left out of things unless there's a decent reason.

I'm holding faith in Roche and Roberts that they don't need some stupid bitch along to have the plot explained at them, and hoping there's a payoff. While it won't undo all the good work if it does turn out she's been included so someone can explain the plot to her, it will take the shine off things a little.

Halfshell
2010-05-10, 02:24 PM
I don't know what's happened to Hunter, TBH - if I read the comic which covered it it certainly proved memorable.

Last time I saw him, Sideswipe had found him hooked up to the Decepticons' nebulous "how we hacked the Autobot codes and made Sunstreaker a traitor" machine, then faffed about with some controls.

I think we're meant to think he shut it off and killed him, but I genuinely don't care.

I have no idea who this "Jimmy" character of whom you speak is. I think you're confused and possibly thinking of the guy with the eyepatch from Pop Will Eat Itself.

Cliffjumper
2010-05-10, 02:47 PM
Ahh, wasn't that AHM? I've read AHM twice nearly - read it through once, then got to about #7 a little while later before it clicked that I had read it before, it just really was that meh.

You're probably right about the non-existent Jimmy. The very idea Furman could devote page-time to someone who ultimately did nothing and had no real point - what the Hell was I thinking? It's mental.

The strangest thing about the Last Stand thing is that's the second or third time the script's basically taken a pot at her for being a waste of space. Which is quite funny in a way, with most of the Autobots hating her as much as readers do possibly being a factor in them being largely likable, but does beg the question of why is she involved?

zigzagger
2010-05-19, 01:29 AM
The final chapter in Nick Roche and James Roberts opus. Revelations, betrayals, and of course, robotic gore. Like the solicitations promise; this one has it all.

This is your all purpose Transformers: Last Stand of Wreckers #5 reaction and discussion thread.

Out May 19th.

Spoiler heavy preview @ Comics Continuum (http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/1005/18/idwfirsts.htm).

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Commander Shockwav
2010-05-19, 10:10 PM
I think every TF comic fan can recall moments when the events happening within those pages were so fun and exciting, you remember not only what it was you were reading, but you remember where you were when you read it.

Last Stand of the Wreckers #5 is one such comic. It stands out amongst others because Nick and James push the envelope and take us places others don't dare to go. It's the kind of thing a longtime TF comic reader wants to see, but rarely seems to get.

It's an utter bloodbath, this issue. Or energonbath, more appropriately. Rocherts pull no punches here, and for my taste, actually threw more than I would have liked. Ironfist, you will be missed. But such is war, right? The unexpected happens and things don't always go the way we hope. Lives are lost. Things aren't black and white, but shades of gray. There are moments of absolute maniacal evil interspersed with moments of altruistic self-sacrifice. As I say, it's war.

Most appealing to me was the unpredictable nature of this story. You couldn't see where this thing was headed. The reader was always kept on his or her toes, issue after issue.

Characters are further fleshed out. Even if they joined the departed, twas worth getting to know them. When that can be said, someone knows how to tell a story and make us care.

And again, I call for James and Nick to officially author IDW's version of a TF Profiles book. I enjoyed reading the few entries they gave us on these characters than the entire DW profile series. Roberts bios are as fun as the actual visuals and brought many a smile to my face. The suggestions of Death's Head harpoon arm influencing Impactors choice to go with one is stellar.

So much is done right with this series, it's hard to give the negatives any mention without stirring up a sense of guilt. But in the spirit of being more thorough, I thought the whole idea of Impactor needing to shoot through Springer was quite silly and unnecessary. Anyway, enough of that.

An "A+" issue, an "A+" series. I read it lying on my bed in my bedroom on a cloudy day waiting for chicken to come out of the oven. I'll remember all that too.

zigzagger
2010-05-20, 01:58 AM
Haven't read through your response yet, Commander (been spoiled enough as it is), but I gotta know - who gets profile treatment this issue?

Commander Shockwav
2010-05-20, 04:06 PM
Pyro, Guzzle, and Impactor.

And their beauts.

zigzagger
2010-05-22, 12:07 AM
Transformers: Last Stand of Ironfist :(

Of all the casualties, that one stung the most. I’m still kinda bummed about it…

And Pyro. Good god! The Day of the Dead/Capt. Rhodes styled death, while truly horrific to see/read, was so depressing. Suits the theme of the book, though, plus, he died nobly. Just like his hero.

I was surprised, pleased in fact, that Impactor made it out. The Last Wrecker standing, in fact (Ironfist had passed out by then, and Verity, as Perceptor said last issue, doesn’t count). And here I had him pegged as a goner. Way to shatter my expectations there. Seeds for a Survivors themed series, perhaps? Not holding my breath, but would most definitely welcome it. Oh, and a big slobbery kiss to Roche and Roberts for throwing together that profile for him (Pyro and Guzzle, too). Impactor desperately needed one.

I was even more surprised that Springer did survive. Editorial mandate maybe? Guess I found it jarring, is all, since Impactor assumed he had died, but is explained to be on life support a few pages later. I did, however, find Kup watching over him during the epilogue to be an interesting parallel.

Did not expect Overlord to make it out alive from this series either. Well, if you want to call the miserable state he was left in as “living” that is. Pleased that, after all the trouble he went to provoke him, Megatron still couldn’t be bothered with him. It’s made all the more biting because we (the readers) know that he’s not dead.

Verity’s purpose is somewhat disclosed. She was the narrator, or rather, a witness. However, I can’t get past this nagging feeling that it was a role that, really, anyone could have filled. Like Ironfist :( Also, while it’s a minor complaint, I just wasn’t feeling her Chip Chase styled rant to Perceptor.


Overall - Great to have expectations rewarded and shattered at the same time. Thank you, Roche and Roberts. It was a fantastic ride.

Red Dave Prime
2010-05-22, 04:33 PM
Great stuff again. A damn good end to the serie. LOVED the flaming Overlord picture. Truly demonic. It didnt have the ending I was expecting which is always nice. I guess we had all figured Impactor had done something underhand with Squadron X (I was expecting him to have not secured them properly in a deliberate way to provoke a final conflict) but his retribution was done well.

Also like to join in the praise of the character files. More IDW titles should include these as they arent just good to read but I imagine they might help the writers keep better track of the bots they're writing about - Magnus and Prowl here are much closer to Furmans (and therefore, OUR) interpretations than the strange altered characters Costa has pushed in the main.

Now, give roche and roberts a little r & r and than onto another series.As a request, I'd like them to focus on magnus and the law enforcement side of the autobots. Theres a bit of a tease here already.

wyze2099
2010-05-23, 07:40 AM
So much is done right with this series, it's hard to give the negatives any mention without stirring up a sense of guilt. But in the spirit of being more thorough, I thought the whole idea of Impactor needing to shoot through Springer was quite silly and unnecessary. Anyway, enough of that.

I saw it as an indication of how unstable Impactor had become. Even before he crossed the Moral Event Horizon and executed Squadron X, his shooting through Springer (when he could have reached around him or over his shoulders and fired) illustrated that there was something deeply wrong with this guy.

Transformers: Last Stand of Ironfist :(

Of all the casualties, that one stung the most. I’m still kinda bummed about it…

You're certainly not alone. That panel where he's revealed to be dead was absolutely perfect, especially with Verity sobbing right next to him. I definitely felt what she was feeling in that moment.

And speaking of Verity...

Verity’s purpose is somewhat disclosed. She was the narrator, or rather, a witness. However, I can’t get past this nagging feeling that it was a role that, really, anyone could have filled. Like Ironfist :( Also, while it’s a minor complaint, I just wasn’t feeling her Chip Chase styled rant to Perceptor.

She seemed to serve as their conscience as well. At the time she made that impassioned rant to Perceptor, Ironfist was to disillusioned to care, so it couldn't have been him.

Verity's friendship with Ironfist ended up being the heart of the series, IMO. These are two very different beings who bond over the fact that everyone else tends to give up on them. Ironfist spent most of his life as a reclusive inventor of weapons he regretted making for a war that took everything from him; presently he's considered unfit to be a Wrecker by the other Autobots. Verity spent several years as a runway pickpocket before she met the Autobots because the system seemed to have failed her completely; presently she's the only human amongst massive robots, most of whom (Autobots included) have written her off as being too squishy to be an asset.

They're underdogs, and they bonded accordingly.

In fact, a large part of what made Ironfist's death panel so moving for me was that it was thematically linked to a panel on the previous page: Verity explains to a freshly-conscious Ironfist that she'll explain what happened "on the way home." This is in turn a callback to the running theme of Ironfist telling Verity a story; now it's Verity's turn to tell one to him.

So the panel in which we see Ironfist's lifeless body and a grief-stricken Verity sobbing next to him hits even harder because it doesn't stand alone. In fact, one could easily imagine that Ironfist's spark faded out right in the middle of Verity's retelling, leaving her at a loss for words.

And even better, the last page of the issue pays off not only that relationship, but also Verity's growth as a character throughout the IDW run. Verity has survived all this with a story to tell. We see her once again as a backpacker out in the middle of nowhere, but much about her has changed. She's no longer skeptical of Hunter O'Nion's claims; she not only wears an alien tattoo in honor of his memory, but she's typing on a laptop as Hunter did way back in Transformers: Infiltration #1. She feels weight of everything that's happened on her shoulders, but after all the carnage, she survives to continue the story and write that "life persists."

This is the best storytelling I've seen in ANY Transformers media.

zigzagger
2010-05-23, 10:13 AM
You're certainly not alone. That panel where he's revealed to be dead was absolutely perfect, especially with Verity sobbing right next to him. I definitely felt what she was feeling in that moment.


It was, and yeah, I did find it touching that Verity would carry on his legacy. It's just that...it completely took me off guard.

Sure, it was foreshadowed and telegraphed, and hell, I was even expecting/dreading it (I'm mean, Prowl hinted at it). Faint hope, I guess. Probably denial (pathetic as that sounds). But, I'm reading through the last scene before it cuts to the epilogue - Impactor made it through the entire series, Overlord had been neutralized, and Ironfist dazedly wakes and wonders what happened. And I think, "Yay! He made it!"

...And then I turn to the next page.

It was just plain cruel.

Commander Shockwav
2010-05-23, 07:32 PM
Yeah, Ironfist was the one bot I didn't want to see die. Everyone else was fair game, but alas. I just felt he was shaping up to be one of those TF comic characters of legend, y'know. Like Blaster or Thunderwing or Nightbeat, one of those guys who just came out of nowhere and arose to prominence.

One question I had was the dialogue between Prowl and Magnus at the end. When does that take place? Is that before or after Menasor hands Magnus his arse?

zigzagger
2010-05-24, 10:04 AM
One question I had was the dialogue between Prowl and Magnus at the end. When does that take place? Is that before or after Menasor hands Magnus his arse?
Let's see here...

Prowl seems to be working under Bumblebee, his office appears to be in a cave (the Autobot's HQ in the ongoing), and he's not stuck babysitting Rodimus. I'd say some point after #7.

And while we're on the subject of the ongoing - going by Magnus' report, would it be wrong for me to assume that the Autobots do have contact outside of Earth, and more than likely have access to other shuttles? Otherwise, how could Ratchet oversee Maximus and Springer's repairs, or how is Magnus able to hand over that slug to Prowl. They're not stranded then?

Cliffjumper
2010-05-24, 11:25 AM
And Pyro. Good god! The Day of the Dead/Capt. Rhodes styled death, while truly horrific to see/read, was so depressing. Suits the theme of the book, though, plus, he died nobly. Just like his hero.

Did he? It looked to me that despite his grasp for melodrama and glory he died like a bitch, benefiotting mainly from the Decepticons semeing to be more interested in tearing him apart than stopping the Autobot plans.

I was even more surprised that Springer did survive. Editorial mandate maybe? Guess I found it jarring, is all, since Impactor assumed he had died, but is explained to be on life support a few pages later. I did, however, find Kup watching over him during the epilogue to be an interesting parallel. Personally I found both "critical" survivals to be cop-outs, and seeing as we're dealing with characters who could well turn up in the ongoing, rather than Jumpstarters or Euro exclusives, deep down you always knew the ones who'd been in the cartoon were going to pull through. Overlord saying "Sweet!" snapped me right out of the comic as well.

Verity’s purpose is somewhat disclosed. She was the narrator, or rather, a witness. However, I can’t get past this nagging feeling that it was a role that, really, anyone could have filled. Like Ironfist :( Also, while it’s a minor complaint, I just wasn’t feeling her Chip Chase styled rant to Perceptor.

To my mind the revelation came nowhere near justifying her place in the story. Sure, you can't transfer her lines to Ironfist or Guzzle without unbalancing something else, but another rookie Wrecker - Sizzle or Override or someone - could have filled her function without being quite such a millstone.

Impactor had done something underhand with Squadron X

Underhand? He did the right thing. Squadron X were scum, there are no Queensbury Rules for taking down evil killer robots. Impactor's first option was to secure them, but politics got in the way, leaving him with the option of killing Squadron X, or letting them go so they could kill others.

Anyone who sees anything, anything wrong with the way Impactor handled the situation with the prisoners is the same sort of one-eyed idiot who thinks the Autobots were out of line to kill Demolishor in ROTF, and should get back to watching the cartoon or something. TBH, once the revelation was confirmed it actually knocked my respect of Ironfist down a notch that he was so upset that Impactor's a ****ing soldier and not Captain America.

My first impression of the issue is lots of good bits, but a surprisingly large dose of triteness as well - Verity's stupid speeches, the pointless laptop reveal at the end, the blatantly editorially-dictated survivors. It was good, but ever-so-slightly disappointing compared to the rest of the story. Was the Grimlock thing solely for bandaging up the laughable continuity?

Halfshell
2010-05-24, 04:52 PM
Overlord saying "Sweet!" snapped me right out of the comic as well.

It was only in flicking back a page that I realised he was mocking Springer's earlier use of the same term.

To my mind the revelation came nowhere near justifying her place in the story.

I'd guessed it was Verity [though I couldn't actually remember her name until I saw it in print, I kept thinking Avril and knowing it was wrong you bastard] from the first page. Use of the word "people" was what gave it away. That and the sudden realisation that for it to be the last stand of the Wreckers, we're looking at them all dying... which then necessitates Verity being along as a non-Wrecker witness for the story to survive.

I think between her taking up Fisitron's mantle (despite the heavyhanded reveal) and the "talking the Wreckers down from murdering Impactor" bit it just about justified her inclusion.

Was the Grimlock thing solely for bandaging up the laughable continuity?

Hrm? Missed that.

Did somebody glue Guzzle back together whilst Impactor was having his head reinflated off-page?

I liked the clinical "the moment I found out you were here I had all the prisoners executed" bit. Touches like that give Overlord the credibility as a monster that his GIANT HAM routine seems determined to undermine.

Nice Xaaron cameo. Enjoyed it, all round. Didn't quite get the suicide lock bit at the end but then I was up at four to my Lost predictions come true.

Auntie Slag
2010-05-24, 05:23 PM
Yeah, between the two panels I could imagine Pyro not even getting off a shot.

I quite like the oddness of the death, though. To have no resolution is great. It's nice to see it in films because it's more realistic, but you rarely get to see it in comics.

They did the same thing with 'Dodgeball'. There's an alternate ending scene where the Purple Cobras simply beat the Average Joes, Goodman bounces around screaming 'in your face', and the film ends. Good guys lose.

Superb.

Halfshell
2010-05-24, 05:25 PM
They did the same thing with 'Dodgeball'. There's an alternate ending scene where the Purple Cobras simply beat the Average Joes, Goodman bounces around screaming 'in your face', and the film ends. Good guys lose.

Mmm. I'm not entirely sold on the story that it's "the original ending" but it's fun nonetheless. And gives weight to the "a true underdog story" tagline that the film carries.

Sometimes the underdog gets blitzed.

If you can dodge a weird brain bullet, you can dodge a wrench.

Cliffjumper
2010-05-24, 05:26 PM
It was only in flicking back a page that I realised he was mocking Springer's earlier use of the same term.

Yeh, I wasn't mad about Springer saying it either. I did like the way Overlord was going to really go for Ironfist because of the "catch" bit, though - it seems one-liners really piss him off.

Hrm? Missed that.From the last one, with Guzzle and Kup finding his cell empty. In retrospect of the prisoner killings, it felt like that bit was there so Sir Not Appearing In This Comic was confirmed to survive. But yeh, the killings did emphasise what a bastard Overlord was nicely, though the Fort Max cop-out once again bugged me - the prisoners were all guys who wouldn't be turning up in anything again, either generics or minor Action Masters or whatever.

Did somebody glue Guzzle back together whilst Impactor was having his head reinflated off-page?I did think that - surely being torn in half isn't that much more of a doddle than having half your head shot off? Guzzle in general felt a bit weird - it almost feels like he was meant to be killed and then Roche and Roberts realised they wanted him for something and fumbled him back in. I'll be honest, I found the wrap-up in general rather clumsy - I guess the problem is that they had a lot of loose ends to tie up, but expanding to a sixth issue with Overlord down would have been very anti-climactic.

Does Prowl actually destroy the slug at the end, though? I couldn't make out from the tiny frame if those were fragments of the thing, or just the detail on Prowl... Prowl who, incidentally, is awesome - he gives the dying Ironfist a way to go out as what he'd always wanted to be (and with hindsight, doesn't that bullet wound on Ironfist's head suddenly seem much more prominent in early issues? Why did none of us question why a lab nerd had a head wound?) and gets what he wants out of it too. Like Impactor he realises that someone needs to be a bastard for the Autobots to get anywhere, and he sees the bigger picture beyond his own immorality.

Oh, and Pyro's death - Shaun of the Dead shout-out, surely?

I realise I'm sounding overly negative about the issue... I did find it a step down from #2-4 (#1 was a bit wobbly in places), but it was still very good and hasn't wrecked the series or anything. The battle scene had nice echoes of Galvatron versus the Wreckers, and Impactor's pragmatism was actually presented in a nice, open way - it's open to debate as to why he doesn't kill Overlord - is it because he thinks it's wrong, or does he spare him in honour of Springer?

And the bullet thing, however heart-breaking, is super story-telling - it was here the whole time, but no-one went "Hey, what's the bullet hole in your head?"/"Well, it's a fascinating story, and I'll tell you when we've done Overlord in".

zigzagger
2010-05-24, 11:32 PM
It looked to me that despite his grasp for melodrama and glory he died like a bitch...

Uh...

It was the thought that count?

Oh fine, point made. But I still think that it fit one of the recurring themes of the book, though. That being people die in stupid, pointless ways.

Red Dave Prime
2010-05-27, 10:25 AM
it's open to debate as to why he doesn't kill Overlord - is it because he thinks it's wrong, or does he spare him in honour of Springer?

Here is a big problem that IDW (furman, roche and all their writers) find themselves in. On the one hand, the battle between the cons and bots is a legit war with rules of combat roughly established. Hence, Impactor slaughtering Squad X who were already bound and captured seem a bit nasty - similar to an allied troop taking a gun to a tied up group of terrorists without any trial and blowing their brains out. Similarly, Magnus going round as a peace keeping enforcing truce accords and what not. Its an intriguing idea. There are prisoners of war and massacre and murder is somewhat frowned upon, especially on the autobot side.

On the other hand however, we also get both sides slaughtering each other with no problems. Maybe Springer would have prefered to take the decepticons prisoner and incapacitate them and not just to massacre them. But he had no problem spearing that torturing decepticon and the wreckers in general seemed to enjoy popping the heads of the rent-o-target decepticons they first encounter. Theres other examples through all the comics - cliffjumpers predator-esq slaughter spree, primes threat to detonate himself and the cons in Ironhide #1. It negates the ending of LSOTW a little when you think about it.

I've been reading back through earlier issues (infiltration etc.) and I think I'd prefer if the main forces were more military - for one it makes a guy like overlord that bit more dangerous. And Prime and Megatron worked much better as somewhat detached leaders imo.

Cliffjumper
2010-05-27, 02:12 PM
Thinking about the Impactor thing a bit, though, it could be a red herring regarding Springer - this time he has his enemy restrained, with pick-up on the way. Overlord wasn't going to walk away that time. You could read it as showing that Impactor isn't a rage junky and that he knows where the line goes. With Squadron X they would have been free to go, relatively undamaged and any further blood they spilled would be on the Autobots' hands.

Denyer
2010-05-27, 11:41 PM
Congratulations to James and Nick for setting a standard other writers can live up to or bugger off for wasting the audience's time. It's the only arguable problem with a story like LSTOTW -- other material suddenly looks very slow, linear, simple & contrived.

The setups are subtly brilliant. From apparent comfirmation that 'Fisitron' has survived, you get "good people dying in stupid, pointless ways", "this has been a story about [...] weird brain bullets" and listing the rest of the roll of dead before writing him out. A data slug held between forefinger and thumb with a caption referring to pressure. "Sweet" / "sweet". There've been strong parallels between the behaviour of Autobots and Decepticons throughout the series, and managing to give a sympathetic air to a bad guy as he's wearing a necklace of Autobot symbols is quite an achievement. I keep thinking back to those damn mammoths; the art's amazingly expressive. I still think Impactor was entirely justified, would do the same again in the circumstances, lets Overlord live because there isn't that stark choice, and that Prowl's abruptness quite deliberately sets up an executioner... and can't fault the characters on their decisions. Despite the Jumpstarters being the main surprise deaths (the survival of Guzzle and Impactor actually being more surprising) the situation still feels credible and to have impact.

Interesting that some TFs can switch off pain and others can't... perhaps the disconnection (or installation of circuitry to bypass it) is generally frowned on as producing an equivalent disconnect with the universe around them?

Magnus gets more backstory here than anywhere else... you can see why he's signed up as enforcer of the Accord. Having the titular Tyrest turn out to be a character rather than a place is a neat addition to lore, too.

Killing the prisoners doesn't have to stick with all of them; some will have escaped, those in containment as sparks may well have been secured behind metres of armoured metal, etc.

I was even more surprised that Springer did survive. Editorial mandate maybe? Guess I found it jarring, is all, since Impactor assumed he had died, but is explained to be on life support a few pages later.
I think it's simply that on the battlefield a serious head wound probably becomes a fatality more often than not, and characters react accordingly. Guzzle, on the other hand, is being played with in a showy manner rather than his chiropractor going for a kill. At this point, there's no real threat to Overlord.

So... tons and tons of polish. Profiles. A Good-Omens-style (http://nickroche.blogspot.com/2010/05/last-issue-of-last-stand-of-wreckers.html) style author photo. Optional crazy amounts of referencing for those who'll appreciate it, without spoiling any of the intelligent action story for those who won't.

Bloody well done.

Cliffjumper
2010-05-28, 04:43 AM
It's the only arguable problem with a story like LSTOTW -- other material suddenly looks very slow, linear, simple & contrived.

Yup - despite quibbling, my only real problem with Last Stand is that it's part of the IDWverse. Mind, I took the same approach when reading as I did with a lot of TMUK material back in the day - that it was well-enough written that it didn't matter that for one reason or another I'd missed half of the backstory. It's good enough that I don't care where it fits into the bigger picture, and indeed think I benefitted massively from not having to mentally slot this series in with a lot of sub-par comics. This was a Marvel UK-based fanfic to me, I'd just missed half of the stories that explained how Impactor came back from being atomised, who Jubilee was and so on.

I still think Impactor was entirely justified, would do the same again in the circumstances, lets Overlord live because there isn't that stark choice, and that Prowl's abruptness quite deliberately sets up an executioner... and can't fault the characters on their decisions.

Prowl in the flashback? Hadn't thought of that. Totally agree now you've said it, and gels with him not having much of a problem with Impactor scurrying off at the end.

Very torn over Impactor - part of me wants a series on Impactor and Guzzle, but only if it's by these guys. I don't want any of these guys cheapened by turning up in shit like the ongoing.

Warcry
2010-05-28, 06:09 PM
I dunno, even though I enjoyed this series tremendously, at the end I have to say that I feel a little bit cheated. After putting five issues of emotional investment into a bunch of characters who had been nobodies previously, we reach the end of it all and not a single one of them survives. Rotorstorm? Dead. Snare? Dead. Stalker? Dead. Pyro? Dead. Ironfist? Dead. Topspin and Twin Twist? Dead and dead.

But Springer, Fortress Maximus, Kup and Perceptor, who mostly traded on past characterization and didn't make an impression on me at all, all survived (I think...I don't have the issue in front of me) because they're 'important' characters. Guzzle and Impactor get a pass on account of being UK fan favourites, even though Guzzle got the least attention out of all the new Wreckers and Impactor's "the Autobot who went too far" backstory turned out to be a damp squib because he actually did the right thing.

If even one of the newbies had survived, or if even one of the more established characters had bought it, maybe I'd feel differently. But after having the authors tell us that they wanted to make some obscure characters interesting, and after having Ironfist and Pyro make the point that obscure post-86 characters are people too...it turns out that, no, they're actually not. They're well-characterized cannon fodder if they're lucky, and get implied off-screen deaths if their not (like Fastlane, Sprocket, Turbofire and the rest of G9's crew). Ironfist's death in particular really burns, because there was absolutely no need for it aside from justifying Verity's presence in the book.

This is a major flaw in all of the post-80s G1 fiction, but for a while it looked like Roche and Roberts were going to avoid falling into that trap. But in the end, they did.

Aside from that I don't have any major complaints with the series as a whole. It's been by far the most enjoyable book put out by IDW or Dreamwave, and genuinely made me care about most of the characters it featured on their own merits. That's something that has been missing from most of the other recent Transformers books, which rely far too much on nostalgia for the Sunbow/Marvel versions of characters to make us care about them instead of doing the legwork themselves. This is the first time in ages that we've seen almost an entire cast built up from scratch like this, and Roche and Roberts deserve to take a bow for what they accomplished.

Wreckers was a well-paced story with a definite arc that made sense and flowed well from one issue to the next. That alone puts it miles ahead of AHM and the Ongoing, which are muddled, plodding and often make no sense. But Roche and Roberts went beyond merely competent storytelling and delivered a subtle, multi-layered tale that I for one will enjoy for years to come.

Despite taking exception to the way they treated their less-famous characters, I enjoyed this series quite a bit and look forward to seeing more from these two, either separately or as a team.

zigzagger
2010-05-28, 10:49 PM
Guzzle and Impactor get a pass on account of being UK fan favourites, even though Guzzle got the least attention out of all the new Wreckers...


Mmm, yeah, that's one other quibble I had with the issue, however minor. Guzzle's relationship to Kup didn't amount to much. It wasn't really even followed up on (aside from Kup showing off) after he made that comment in #3.

A pity. I appreciated the Spotlight: Kup tie-in. I thought Roche and Roberts were going to go somewhere with that. Aside from page constraints, which I'm guessing that's what happened, I suppose it wasn't relevant in the scheme of things, but then why mention it? All I can figure was he couldn't find the appropiate moment to confront Kup - you know, between trying to find Grimlock and being torn in half by Overlord.

Auntie Slag
2010-05-28, 11:39 PM
I disagree on this one. I was fully expecting Impactor to get to most flaming, tortuous and grizzled death of them all, but it didn't happen. If there's one thing Impactors good at, it's dying, so good on 'em for not going down that route.

The fate of Ironfist and Pyro in particular was very sad, but it doesn't change the fact that they were so well written, that in their short on-panel lives they achieved more characterisation and evoked more reader emotion (which seems pretty evident here), than most other Transformers in TF media ever.

The writers achieved a massive amount of what they set out to do, which to my mind is make people care, and remember how fantastic a good comic can be.

If I was a writer that's exactly what I'd want. This series felt like the embodiment of Prime's comment; "a blade of grass in an earthen forest" from G2. A couple of guys who have revitalised TF comics in one shot and made you remember how fantastic, fun and downright harsh big **** off robots with guns can be. There's enough of a human element to them, and more than enough alien to make them exotic and raw and great fun to read about.

And this is just their opening salvo (hopefully).

Red Dave Prime
2010-05-28, 11:41 PM
I dont know, Guzzles story wasnt essential and it plants a nice seed that may or may not develop. Roche is heavily linked to Kup in my mind (spotlight, the (only decent) coda story and now here) and it wouldnt suprise me if he has an idea for a guzzle/kup showdown. Both are officially wreckers now, even if guzzle leaves with Impactor.

And while the deaths may seem unfair to the new characters, I feel if you take it just as the 5 issues then the deaths make sense. Maximus dying wouldnt have mattered and probably wouldnt have any shock value, certainly not the same level that Rotorstorms death gets. Great idea to build up a cool likeable character and then kill him suddenly. Compare the Pilot story (for want of a better term) in AHM with this to see how it can go badly wrong.

Twin Twist and Topspins death was done brilliantly imo, really excellent work there. Ironfists death may seem a little weak but it gives his reason for finally joining the wreckers a bit more depth. Pyro is possibly the least built up character (altough this is as much to do with his wannabe-prime condition as anything) so his throwaway death suited.

Not saying they got it absolutely perfect like...

Auntie Slag
2010-05-28, 11:44 PM
I don't consider Pyro's a throwaway death. He got exactly what he wanted out of it.

Red Dave Prime
2010-05-28, 11:50 PM
Actually, I phrased that wrong. His death isnt throwaway and it doesnt lack purpose (gets Ironfist and perceptor out of harms way of course) but I kinda meant more from the panel where he imagines himself all guns blazing, going down fighting where in reality he just gets torn to pieces. Got the impression he didnt even take down one con.

Auntie Slag
2010-05-29, 12:03 AM
Yeah I thought that too. But even if he didn't fire a single shot, he still went out a bit of a hero. And he cared about Topspin I thought, which was nice.

Actually, he seemed to have a nice word to say about everyone. He was the Mike Smash of the Wreckers.

Heinrad
2010-05-30, 02:23 AM
The survival that surprised me was Kup. Having his head get crunched between halves of Guzzle, I figured, would have finished him off.

I had hoped Ironfist would survive. I wasn't sure if Springer would. Oddly enough, I figured he was dead when Overlord hit him, then figured he'd survived it when what I thought was a blow that had destroyed Springer's whole head only damaged it and ripped his face off.

So how long until the letter campaign to get Roche and Roberts to take over on the ongoing? :D

EDIT: Actually, I fully understand why Impactor got sentenced and why Ironfist was so disillusioned. To the rank and file Autobots, the Wreckers are legends, held up there with Optimus Prime and other great heroes(Drift need not apply). Everything Ironfist managed to dig up and publish probably wouldn't have happened if not for the need for propoganda. Having one of the heroes of the Autobots gun down a bunch of unarmed Decepticon prisoners, whether or not it's the right thing in the long run, would give the Decepticons a victory. In Ironfist's case, it was a case of discovering his hero had feet of clay.

Terome
2010-05-30, 07:50 PM
I didn't imagine Impactor speaking with a Liverpudlian accent, but with that 'You've killed a lot of my friends today' quote, it seems to make a certain amount of sense.

I really liked the logic of Ironfist's intended suicide, too. It's straight out of Look To Windward, but it's easy to see that, in a society of functional immortals that have already seen the worst that war could throw at them, it would be a unique talent to be genuinely suicidal. That sad little page of Ironfist reflecting on his life in the previous issue seems so much sadder when you realise that he is thinking the exact thoughts that Prowl expected him to think when confronted with the chance for a guilt-free death.

I think that Impactor's choice to spare Overlord might have been a bit more convincing if Springer had actually died, but I imagine he was saved by editors or nostalgia or what-have-you.

Did the Decepticons make a beeline for Pyro because he looked like Prime? I assumed that but it doesn't seem to be clear.

Quite liked Verity's role in the story. Though I don't know how she can become 'Fisitron' when she's writing in English on a copy of Openoffice. Maybe she's just doing it for her own amusement? She must surely be almost completely bonkers by now thanks to her winner's luck.

Am not going to worry about the inconsistencies about the scale and interconnectedness of the war between this and the Ongoing because the Ongoing is tedious shit.

Do a mini on Mr. Tyrest next, please. There's some meat left on that bone, for sure.

minimus-minor
2010-06-01, 09:03 PM
Got it.
Read it.
Loved it.

They've really outdone themselves this time. Bring on the sequel!
More in-depth reaction at Comic Book Revolution (http://comicbookrevolution.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=408:transformers-last-stand-of-the-wreckers-5-review&catid=85:idw&Itemid=96).

@zigzagger: "They're not stranded then?" In Prowl's SL, he said that shuttles were coming in to take refuge from the rest of the galaxy. So despite the fact that the humans are extremely distrusting of them, they don't wanna get off Earth. A tad confusing, but not totally unbelievable. I mean, in #6, aren't they like kinda in a truce with the humans?

Warcry
2010-06-01, 10:32 PM
A tad confusing, but not totally unbelievable.
Except that a major plot point early on in the Ongoing was that Rodimus and his followers couldn't leave Earth unless Omega Supreme was willing to take them.

It's possible they broke the ships down for building materials, but all of them? That would be a phenomenally stupid move on the Autobots' part.

Heinrad
2010-06-03, 05:52 AM
Decepticons took a bunch of them? Or tried to, the Autobots tried to stop them, and in the ensuing battle, the shuttles got trashed?

Has mention of these shuttles shown up anywhere else?

zigzagger
2010-06-19, 06:57 AM
Think this will work here...

"Dead Men's Boots" (http://transformers-mosaic.deviantart.com/art/Dead-Men-s-Boots-168166799), a LSOTW themed Transformers Mosaic piece written by James Roberts and art by Nick Roche.


http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/189/deadmensbootsbytransfor.th.jpg (http://img35.imageshack.us/i/deadmensbootsbytransfor.jpg/)

Warcry
2010-06-19, 02:25 PM
Neat.

That makes me wonder why Guzzle didn't take a shot at Kup when he got the chance.

Terome
2010-06-19, 02:30 PM
It is neat! It's easy to forget that the Mosaic format can be a nifty way to brush a few crumbs onto our plates.

Auntie Slag
2010-06-19, 05:59 PM
I like Pyro's use of "Oh god", as opposed to "Oh Primus", or "By the Sacred Spires" or something similar.

Very neat Mosaic.In classy fashion it leaves you partly filling in the gaps yourself, and partly wishing for an expanded prequel to LSotW. I want to know what Pyro was up to prior to the series.

Wildrider
2010-06-19, 09:48 PM
That's a funky mosaic, I wonder if they'll include it in the TPB, it's a nice little plot dangler, I'm half excited/amused at the prospect of Impactor and Guzzle heading off on some kind of Butch and Sundance adventure, guns for hire etc.

Travelling around, settling scores a bit like in 'Munich' where the Israel secret service go aorund offing everyone that has ever written a threatening letter against Tel Aviv.

New Roche mini perhaps? 'Guzzlepactor', 'Impuzzle'? 'Big Tank, Little tank' 'Is that a harpooAGGGGHH?' so many possibilities.

:up:

Auntie Slag
2010-06-19, 09:58 PM
That sounds fantastic, along with Carnivac or Nightstalker as their 'Littlest Hobo' satellite accompaniment.

'Is that a harpooAAAAGGH?' should be an actual comic title RIGHT NOW it's so good.

optimusskids
2010-06-19, 11:20 PM
Presumably having been previously ripped in two according to his biog helped Guzzle to survive it happening again.

Nice to see a Flame cameo

Verity picking up the torch as Fistitron helps explain the Charge of the light brigade references which while very appropriate seemed unlikely to be known to Ironfist. The copy of Tennyson with her at the diner is a nice touch.

Terome
2010-06-19, 11:40 PM
Verity picking up the torch as Fistitron helps explain the Charge of the light brigade references which while very appropriate seemed unlikely to be known to Ironfist. The copy of Tennyson with her at the diner is a nice touch.

Aha, maybe it was Verity who told the Dinobots all about Henry V so they could reference it in Maximum Dinobots?

Catalyst Dragon
2010-07-02, 11:55 AM
Just picked up #1 and 2.
Not bad so far.
Like most the artwork, not too keen on Kups face though...

Dialog seems a little jumpy... I had to read a couple of panes twice to be sure of what was said.

MikeB
2010-07-02, 02:45 PM
Mildly put out by the fact that the versions they've put out on the app store don't have the profiles included. Apparently I'm not a loyal enough reader because I wanted them on my shiny new piece of frivolous techno-kit instead of paper versions...

Other than that It's a cracking little story, though makes me a little squeamish in places (it's all too easy to transfer human feelings and pain reactions onto 30ft tall robots...).

Cliffjumper
2010-07-02, 03:11 PM
Yay.

MikeB
2010-07-02, 06:06 PM
Yay.

Yay at my minor misfortune?

:(

Cliffjumper
2010-07-02, 07:46 PM
Yay at you posting. Also yay at your minor misoftune, though.

MikeB
2010-07-02, 08:33 PM
I've never felt so wanted...

Anyway, more wreckers loving. Was initially unsure over how little a deal was made over the Kup/Guzzle affair. It seemed like Kup's little action sequence was supposed to leave Guzzle feeling like maybe it was worth all the effort in keeping him alive? Maybe not, but either way it seemed a little too underplayed in the end. Minor quibble though, and I'd far rather see 5 issues at this pace than 6 of the most recent Furman, or the 12, no 16, or however many including spotlights from all hail megatron. I've recently read the main 12 btw, but will whack my thoughts in the "not so bad" thread.

Cliffjumper
2010-07-02, 09:47 PM
Funny thing about the Kup/Guzzle thing is that (not being an IDW fan at all and taking this as some mad Marvel alternate timeline story) is that the cigar thing went right over my head until someone here (Denyer? Ziggy? Terome?) mentioned it, then it stuck out like a sore thumb that it didn't really go anywhere, amplified by the Mosaic coda.

Guzzle getting spared and packed off with Impactor, possibly to off-panel adventures we'll never, ever hear about, also felt like a bit of an afterthought, especially as Guzzle got torn in half - almost as if they wanted one of the new recruits to survive and it was Guzzle by default. The shoe drop on Ironfist was sublime, but that didn't quite gel as well, and I agree that it was difficult to work out what exactly seemed to make Guzzle back off from Kup (as opposed to, say, staying with the Wreckers to have another go at him), especially as Guzzle seemed to quite enjoy the carnage. But yeh, it's basically buried by a flood of absolute awesome. And how do the TF copmic buying section of the public respond? By making the dire ongoing outsell it 2-1. Wankers.

Terome
2010-07-26, 05:49 PM
Read the whole thing in one go the other night, then opened up my browser to see the Afghanistan Wikileaks story explode all over the news.

Remarkably prescient stuff, James and Nick. Perhaps the unspooling of the real life situation from here on will give us a better understanding of whether Prowl was right or not...

Terome
2010-07-26, 05:52 PM
Oh, and is it just me, or does the way that Prowl and Ultra Magnus tip-toe around the subject of Ironfist's 'lab accident' seem to imply that it was probably a suicide attempt?

LKW
2010-07-27, 12:19 AM
Ooo! That's a very interesting thought, Terome. That hadn't occurred to me, but it does seem to make some sense....

I hope this makes some good sales in TPB - more people need to read this story.

zigzagger
2010-08-08, 01:37 AM
Wondering what (else) will be included in the TPB? James Roberts has got you covered:
http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopic.php?p=197277#197277

The Last Stand of the Wreckers TPB is due sometime by the end of this month.

Here's a little forum exclusive: the contents of the trade.

Aside from the 110-page LSOTW itself, we have:

Two new profiles (Overlord and Snare) written and drawn by Nick, and inked by Josh
'Dead Men's Boots', the Transformers Mosaic
An all-new pin-up by Josh
'Fisitron's Facts' - 25 things you didn't know about LSOTW
'Prison Slops' - scraps and scrawls from the Wreckers sketchbooks
'Bullets' - a new 12,500-word short story by me (essentially LSOTW issue zero in prose form)

We're pleased with it. We hope you will be too.Nice.

Was wanting a LSOTW prequel, and this will definitely do. Pity Roche won't be providing the visuals, but this is still great news.

Happy about the inclusion of Decepticon profiles. Does this mean that the trade will include the other profiles as well? I know at some point it was said that the TPB wouldn't.

Blackjack
2010-08-08, 02:45 AM
Squeeee!

Warcry
2010-08-08, 05:55 AM
Happy about the inclusion of Decepticon profiles. Does this mean that the trade will include the other profiles as well? I know at some point it was said that the TPB wouldn't.
Nope. Andy Schmidt made a post on the IDW forum saying that they wouldn't be, and preemptively scolding anyone who complains about being told "sorry, you need to buy the story twice to get all the content" because the profiles are "extras" and somehow don't count.

Ten years ago it would have been a bit of a dickish move, but now it's just a little bit...pointless. Anyone who waited for the trade will just download scans of the profiles if they want to read them and the people inclined to buy both the issues and the trade would do so regardless, so what are they gaining from holding the profiles back? It seems pointless to me, and won't accomplish much other than mildly annoying the fanbase.

zigzagger
2010-08-08, 07:04 AM
Nope. Andy Schmidt made a post on the IDW forum saying that they wouldn't be, and preemptively scolding anyone who complains about being told "sorry, you need to buy the story twice to get all the content" because the profiles are "extras" and somehow don't count.

Ah, so he did. You see, I just got the link from the Allspark, and only checked the post it referenced. Serves me right for not reading through the rest of the thread...I guess.

Ten years ago it would have been a bit of a dickish move, but now it's just a little bit...pointless. Anyone who waited for the trade will just download scans of the profiles if they want to read them and the people inclined to buy both the issues and the trade would do so regardless, so what are they gaining from holding the profiles back? It seems pointless to me, and won't accomplish much other than mildly annoying the fanbase.Plus, they're not in print anymore, so I don't see what they they'd gain from doing that. If newcomers truly wanted physical copies of the singles now, it would more than likely be backstock from when the issues initially came out or through the second hand market. And from what was said at some point earlier in this thread, the profiles are not available in the downloadable versions, either.

Denyer
2010-08-08, 11:41 AM
Anyone who waited for the trade will just download scans of the profiles if they want to read them and the people inclined to buy both the issues and the trade would do so regardless, so what are they gaining from holding the profiles back?
More pages to print other material.

I can't remember -- was it said from the outset that the issues would have exclusive material? If so, that seems fair enough, even if the division is uneven (five issues at $4 each [plus postage if you don't live near a comics store] = $20 = five pages plus a lot of ads making the comic take up more space, trade paperback = $20 but $13.49 at 'real' Amazon prices = a slew).

If it wasn't made clear going along (as it has been with others who've done this; eg, Phongram's second series), I don't think it's going to encourage people to buy singles next time, but they will be pissed off that they missed out. Communication's key.

Of course, whether double-dipping a dwindling customer base in this economic climate is wise is another discussion. Most IDW comics don't contain extras, so people may re-assess and decide it's not worth buying any singles that don't, now that the fact has been drawn attention to.

I'm happy to buy twice for something of this calibre, whilst realising that $20 (or rather, considerably more by the time they've been imported to the UK and bought mail-order) for the singles and five extra pages -- that're available illicitly anyway -- doesn't offer value for money and I'm probably in a crazed minority for doing so.

Cliffjumper
2010-08-08, 12:19 PM
Eh, with the singles you're paying for being in at the time as well, the financial stuff's a misdirection because by now people have either already bought or not bought the singles... I'll be buying the trade simply because I want it in a handy format to sit on the Awesome Shelf, see if the singles are going for anything because of this, there's usually a market for Transformers things that have arbitrarily been declared hard to find.

As for double-dipping their shallow market, IDW are the company who have produced alternative covers that are unfinished versions of other covers, so I think that's a bridge that was burned a long time ago.

Hell, it's IDW, they were going to **** something up. They fluked onto the greatest TF comic of all time, they had to this to balance it out, and better this than arbitrarily dropping speech bubbles or superimposing Drift in Impactor's place.

Denyer
2010-08-08, 12:42 PM
Eh, with the singles you're paying for being in at the time as well,
When there's a month between 'chapters' of ~20 pages, are people actually that bothered?

Alt covers aren't double-dipping. It's the same story material regardless of cover.

No sign of scalping beyond the usual levels on eBay.

Denyer
2010-08-08, 12:44 PM
The only mention of exclusivity that leaps out is this comment on issue #2 --

http://nickroche.blogspot.com/2010/02/wrecker-awareness-week-continues.html

-- was it publicised much beyond that?

Warcry
2010-08-08, 04:58 PM
More pages to print other material.
If we were talking about the randomly-chosen Marvel profiles that'd be fair enough, but the ones in Wreckers are designed to tie into the story itself. They added extra layers to the plot, and holding them back means that people who pick up the book in trade format are actually missing out on part of the story.

I want the book in Trade format because I vastly prefer them to normal comics, but I have the wherewithal to get my hands on the stuff that's missing so it doesn't really matter to me. And the same goes for anyone else who's a steady reader of the IDW stuff -- we've all either bought the issues, illegally downloaded them or read someone else's copy by now anyway, so IDW's not holding anything back from us.

The people who are missing out are the casual fans, the folk who'll be walk by the trades section in the bookstore six months from now, see the cover and go "ooh, Kup and Springer! I remember those guys!". And since those are the people who represent new sales and new fans, keeping them from reading content that makes the story itself even more awesome so that you can include four more pages of design sketches is a completely backwards decision.

I don't object to the singles having exclusive content, but when holding content back from the trade means that trade-readers will be missing important information I think that's a step too far. By all means, have exclusive content, but you need to choose it better than this.

-- was it publicised much beyond that?
On the IDW boards I think it was, yeah. I can't remember exactly when it was said but it seems to be common knowledge now.

Hell, it's IDW, they were going to **** something up. They fluked onto the greatest TF comic of all time, they had to this to balance it out, and better this than arbitrarily dropping speech bubbles or superimposing Drift in Impactor's place.
It's the attitude from Schmidt and the fanboys on their board that pisses me off, TBH. "Oh, they're just extras, so it's completely unreasonable to want them to be collected as part of the comic they were printed with".

Halfshell
2010-08-08, 05:07 PM
If we were talking about the randomly-chosen Marvel profiles that'd be fair enough, but the ones in Wreckers are designed to tie into the story itself. They added extra layers to the plot, and holding them back means that people who pick up the book in trade format are actually missing out on part of the story.

Mmmm. They're part of the story in the way that Rorschach's psyche profile is part of Watchmen.

I mean it's not an unreasonable thing to request. It's not like we bitch and whine because Titan's Marvel UK reprints didn't include every related Dread Tidings.

Cliffjumper
2010-08-08, 05:16 PM
Does anyone actually look at design sketches? Especially as these are likely to be "And here's a picture of Kup a little bit closer to his toy design". Without wishing to denigrate the work done by the art team, the really mad sketches were done by Hasbro staffers 20-25 years ago, all the LSotW bods did was fiddle with character designs.

When there's a month between 'chapters' of ~20 pages, are people actually that bothered?

Define people. If we're talking Joe Casual or some joyless Wiki-nerd who wants to get those vital edits and citations in, probably not (though I'll grant you the latter isn't anyone's definition of a person).

Speaking for myself, however, Last Stand made me feel like I was 7 again, re-reading issues over and over again, desperate for the next to hit, trying to guess what would happen, actually being excited by a Transformers comic, and part of that was the glorious anticipation. If I could pay money to whip up that sort of nostalgia regularly rather than waiting for something to fall through the soul-strainer at IDW without being processed, I'd be up for that.

Alt covers aren't double-dipping. It's the same story material regardless of cover.

It's another way of getting people to pay twice for basically the same material by adding something exclusive to the mix. Covers can be part of the story for some people

EDIT: There are plenty of other things to bitch about regarding Titan's UK trades anyway...

Halfshell
2010-08-08, 05:27 PM
Covers can be part of the story for some people

I know I'd far rather have a copy of #1 that doesn't have Impactor blazoned across the front of it. It's not something I'd lend to somebody.

EDIT: There are plenty of other things to bitch about regarding Titan's UK trades anyway...

Well yeah, but you know what I mean.

A letters page is an extra. A character profile for somebody who's only appeared in that story and that gives insight into what's going on is part of the story.

It's not like a DVD extra where it's some behind the scenes documentary... it's the closing credits to the episode.

Cliffjumper
2010-08-08, 05:45 PM
Yeh, I fully agree this is worse... My point with the covers is that IDW will resort to all sorts in order to try and get completists to buy multiples - it's just a shame in this case that it's genuine fiction rather than a different robot doing a pose on the front. You're paying twice for mainly the same material either way.

If I ran a comic company, when I did my nineteen different covers that all comic companies are legally bound to produce in order to offset the licensing costs incurred by no-one I employ having any actual ideas of their own, I'd make the interiors of each one slightly different, just to see if anyone actually read their Incentive Photocopy edition rather than just looked at the picture on the front. Maybe switch all the dialogue for insults or something.

Denyer
2010-08-08, 06:01 PM
If we were talking about the randomly-chosen Marvel profiles that'd be fair enough, but the ones in Wreckers are designed to tie into the story itself. They added extra layers to the plot, and holding them back means that people who pick up the book in trade format are actually missing out on part of the story.

I want the book in Trade format because I vastly prefer them to normal comics, but I have the wherewithal to get my hands on the stuff that's missing so it doesn't really matter to me. And the same goes for anyone else who's a steady reader of the IDW stuff -- we've all either bought the issues, illegally downloaded them or read someone else's copy by now anyway, so IDW's not holding anything back from us.

The people who are missing out are the casual fans, the folk who'll be walk by the trades section in the bookstore six months from now, see the cover and go "ooh, Kup and Springer! I remember those guys!". And since those are the people who represent new sales and new fans, keeping them from reading content that makes the story itself even more awesome so that you can include four more pages of design sketches is a completely backwards decision.

I don't object to the singles having exclusive content, but when holding content back from the trade means that trade-readers will be missing important information I think that's a step too far. By all means, have exclusive content, but you need to choose it better than this.

Agreed, a better choice of material for issues would be pinups and sketches... although not one that'd convince me to buy singles if I was a trades-only buyer.

I think the story reads well enough without the profiles; the characters were new to all of us, although newbies who're reading in trade paperback would benefit from them. However, they might also benefit just as much from a prequel text story, knowing who the big bad was in a profile and letting the characterisation speak for itself with the Autobots.

Phonogram: The Singles Club has a couple of short backup strips in each issue, plus some text blurb, but I agree with the creators that a trade would be awkward in having a dozen or two shorts in the back of the book.

Covers can be part of the story for some people
Turnaround; who are these people -- presupposing that they can get a cover that is in some way connected to the story -- who're interested in paying $4 for an American comic sized pinup they can see online or in miniature inside the comic?

Being in it at the time... I can see it for a few (and with the right comic, I'll enjoy too) but not often. There's a limited number of ways a story can go, and the fact that storylines go past Hasbro approval is a further limiting factor; this one unsurprisingly killed the red-shirts.

Cliffjumper
2010-08-08, 06:13 PM
Turnaround; who are these people -- presupposing that they can get a cover that is in some way connected to the story -- who're interested in paying $4 for an American comic sized pinup they can see online or in miniature inside the comic?

Collectors and completists, and they must be out there or IDW wouldn't bother. What sort of numbers we're talking I couldn't guess, but when you're talking about sales of 8000, a few hundred would be a significant proportion of the readership.

The stuff about being in there only really applies to Last Stand (it would, for me, have applied to Planetary and The Ultimates, but there's only so much excitement can do against mammoth delays).

inflatable dalek
2010-08-08, 07:59 PM
Just brought all five issues of Ebay just so that (hopefully) I'll have read the thing before giving Roche and Roberts a big wet kiss next weekend.

Auntie Slag
2010-08-08, 09:40 PM
I think i'll wait for the eBay TPB (apparently it's got a special prose bit about Paypal).

Warcry
2010-08-09, 01:26 AM
I think the story reads well enough without the profiles; the characters were new to all of us, although newbies who're reading in trade paperback would benefit from them.
By all means, it's still a good story without the profiles. But they do add a lot to the picture. If you don't read the profiles you'd be left thinking that Pyro's a dick, not knowing that he's mentally ill. You wouldn't understand what was driving Impactor's hate for Squadron X or why Rotorstorm behaved the way he did, etc...

Since we'll probably never see these characters again the profiles are the only place that a reader will ever get the chance to learn those details. And even though the story is good without them, it's not complete.

However, they might also benefit just as much from a prequel text story, knowing who the big bad was in a profile and letting the characterisation speak for itself with the Autobots.
True, and you can probably toss Dead Men's Boots onto the same list. The problem with a story like Wreckers is that it's so well thought out that everything is important. I've got no doubts that the text story, along with Overlord and Snare's profiles, are going to peel back another layer of the proverbial onion and retroactively make the story just that little bit better for everyone.

The pinup and design sketches, on the other hand, are a poor use of page space when that space could have been used for the Autobots' profiles. The art is nice to have, but not at the expense of something that's a genuine part of the story itself.

Denyer
2010-08-09, 09:22 PM
If you don't read the profiles you'd be left thinking that Pyro's a dick, not knowing that he's mentally ill.
Eh, he is was a dick. Psychopathy (or whatever appellation it's picked up this year) is also a disorder, but explanation<>excuse.

You wouldn't understand what was driving Impactor's hate for Squadron X or why Rotorstorm behaved the way he did, etc...
Disagree... they're both fairly stock characterisations. A bit more detail just adds a bit more weight.

The problem with a story like Wreckers is that it's so well thought out that everything is important. I've got no doubts that the text story, along with Overlord and Snare's profiles, are going to peel back another layer of the proverbial onion and retroactively make the story just that little bit better for everyone.

The pinup and design sketches, on the other hand, are a poor use of page space when that space could have been used for the Autobots' profiles. The art is nice to have, but not at the expense of something that's a genuine part of the story itself.
Unrelated extended mosaic-type pieces might be a fit, even if there's only one a month across multiple titles. DC have taken to running short back-up strips to sustain singles sales, and IDW certainly have the page-count... I can't see how cross-promoting their own books over so many pages is productive. A summary page of "other properties" noting the latest titles for each would have as much impact.

True, they're not geared up towards this paradigm for the moment. However, the singles market is a "change or die" one.

I realise approvals are hassle, but there's no shortage of material fans would love to see in print and fans of those fans would likewise love to see in print. The quality is there (indeed, quite often beyond IDW's own originated material.)

Serialise something like this over a miniseries or story arc; http://limelight-dreadwind.deviantart.com/

inflatable dalek
2010-08-11, 08:19 PM
Aw bollocks. The first issue arrived today, and it was the wrong one, issue 4 instead of 5. ****ing stupid seller. So I'm going to end up with two of that one and no climax. Even with a return and replacement they'll be no chance to read the whole thing before the weekend. Bah.

inflatable dalek
2010-08-14, 07:07 AM
Read it verrrry uickly this mourning (and will likely be late for Auto Assembly as a result).

Short version: Awesome.

More thoughts to follow but in general terms: I think not killing Springer and the other character's off telly was the right choice simply because thanks to IDW I'd have never believed they'd be staying that way anyway. The characters they did kill aren't coming back and that had impact.

The fact several notable Wreckers were off elsewhere and the Mayhem Attack Squad being carefully not used as their Decepticon counterparts here does leave room for a follow up series doesn't it? Springer getting the old team back together to face the new threat of Snarler and co. That's what I'd do anyway.

Flame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cliffjumper
2010-08-14, 12:07 PM
Flame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

U'r a dick.

inflatable dalek
2010-08-15, 08:17 PM
U'r a dick.


*POST REPORTED*



As there wasn't much in the way of new news at Auto Assembly (though the 13 definitely isn't happening, though Furman's still hoping some reworked/rewritten version might meet what Hasbro wants in the future) I thought I'd share the useless tidbits that came up in the Rocharts Q&A's:

It went through a lot of different drafts. Overlord was chosen as a villain as they didn't want to use anyone the other writers might include in their stuff so as to avoid any contradictions [This would normally be where the editor comes in of course, to keep characterisation across the comics straight. But this is IDW. Roche did say LSotW was the first TF comic read by a IDW staffer. My monies on Tipton.]

Overlord is Tim Curry.

If it hadn't been Overlord it would have been Scorponok (due to him already being in the prison). Early drafts still had him involved, inventing Nucleon as a steroid analogy. Grimlock would have been force fed it and become a psychotic monster and the last person the combatants would have to face in the pit. Overlord would have wound up being chucked in and fed to him.

Ultimately they decided they didn't want to overshadow the Wreckers by featuring any of the "Big Hitters" in lead roles. The Shockwave and empty Grimlock cell scenes were basically there to write out such characters who had been previously established as being in the prison. Shockwave's also served the purpose of creating a get out clause, any of the Decepticon prisoners IDW want to use in future can be retroactively made part of the crew Overlord gave him.

Rotorstorm worked through three different deaths. At one point he died like Pyro does in the finished story and another he was killed in aerial combat with Overlord.

Guzzle and Impactor going off together is something done deliberately as potential for future stories, though they don'tnow if they'll be the ones telling them.

There was basically at least a whole extra issue's worth of stuff that got cut out as they went through the script editing process. Things lost include pay off to the Guzzle/Kup thing (though unlike some of the earlier posts in this thread I thought that worked fine as a throwaway detail), more characters arguing over who's the best to sacrifice to the justice computer and some stuff between Pyro and Verity where he'd have talked her down from something terrible she'd have been about to do and taught her something in a reversal of the usual human/Atuobot relationship.

Several examples of Transformer swearing were cut, mostly from Dipstick in issue 1. "Son of a glitch" was only allowed after Roche pointed out he'd gotten away with it in Shockwave. A lot of the eye gorgings were removed as they went along as well.

Conversely, Hasbro actually asked for more violence at certain points, they wanted it made clear a simple head shot wouldn't be enough to kill a transformer, the Spark had to be attacked as well.

Even the authors don't know if Prowl destroyed the chip or not after the final panel.

A Ladybird book injoke got mentioned, in my fast read I missed it, can anyone point it out?

I had the mighty Roche draw me a Guzzle as well.

Terome
2010-08-15, 08:43 PM
Nice scoop, roving reporter. That Scorponok / Grimlock idea sounds like exactly the sort of thing that fans-turned-writers would come up with - glad they took the higher ground.

Roche did say LSotW was the first TF comic read by a IDW staffer.

That is horrifically plausible.

Conversely, Hasbro actually asked for more violence at certain points, they wanted it made clear a simple head shot wouldn't be enough to kill a transformer, the Spark had to be attacked as well.

Well that certainly didn't come across. Did Snare get gobbed in the spark?

No word on their next project, I take it? IDW should have signed them up for a million issues by now if their production strategy didn't involve them just leaving the porch door open all night and publishing whatever they find on the kitchen table in the morning.

zigzagger
2010-08-15, 09:50 PM
If it hadn't been Overlord it would have been Scorponok (due to him already being in the prison).



Huh. I thought there was something familiar about Overlord's hammed up performance. He's actually Furman's Scorponok. Well, that explains everything ;)

Red Dave Prime
2010-08-16, 12:17 AM
production strategy didn't involve them just leaving the porch door open all night and publishing whatever they find on the kitchen table in the morning.

Had to laugh at that. And whats worse, probably true.

inflatable dalek
2010-08-16, 05:53 AM
That is horrifically plausible.

Yep. I know they probably meant someone who didn't work on Transformers, but I like my version more realistic.



Well that certainly didn't come across. Did Snare get gobbed in the spark?

He was already fairly ****ed up when Impactor finished him off wasn't he? Not sure about the guard he harpooned though.

Roche never actually expected to be allowed to use Impactor despite pushing for him.

No word on their next project, I take it? IDW should have signed them up for a million issues by now if their production strategy didn't involve them just leaving the porch door open all night and publishing whatever they find on the kitchen table in the morning.

They've lots of ideas, some Wreckers and some Impactor/Guzzle related and some working solo of each other. They didn't really want to talk about anything at this point (though they made a throwaway reference to either a Springer Spotlight or something about Kup and Impactor's past) but IDW are at least up for working with them on something. Roche doesn't think it'll be anytime in the immediate future though, he's just finished a little break away from Transformers and will be busy doing covers for the ongoing (and possibly the inside of issue 13 as well, I didn't hear that properly). They did say whatever comes next won't be so fanwanky as they've exhausted every possibly injoke they could think of.

All the references to other missions and adventures were done partly to emphasise it's a bigger Universe than we ever see but also to hopefully inspire fanfic writers to go tell those stories. They also absolutely love everyone on every message board who had a LSotW sig.

inflatable dalek
2010-08-16, 07:16 PM
[Shameless Showing off]

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc147/inflatabledalek/Auto%20Assembly%202010/Guzzle.jpg

[/Shameless Showing Off]

Roche excelled himself with the "Wide eyed "Oh ****" expression I asked for.

Terome
2010-08-16, 08:14 PM
[Shameless Showing off]
Good show!

He was already fairly ****ed up when Impactor finished him off wasn't he? Not sure about the guard he harpooned though.

Could mean that Stalker is still about, too. I like Stalker. Of course, it is only because I had his toy.

They did say whatever comes next won't be so fanwanky as they've exhausted every possibly injoke they could think of.

That's a relief. Those things won't age well.

Yep. I know they probably meant someone who didn't work on Transformers, but I like my version more realistic.

That is certainly the version that will be repeated down the eons/weeks.

inflatable dalek
2010-08-17, 07:42 AM
Oh, and El Furman didn't "Get" Kup when he was sent the script to read. No idea if he changed his mind after reading the finished version but Roche was apparently rather knocked by that and was only later glad he ignored the advice.

More thoughts on the comic:

My main dislike is Impactor's alternate mode. I've waited 24 years for it and instead of coming into my head and plucking out the mental Generation 2 Megatronish image I've always had Roche came up with something else. Do better with Xaaron's toaster mode next time Roche!

More seriously, the Justice Computer felt like something Terry Nation would come up with, very 1970's. I'm not sure they couldn't have come up with something like needing to get out the spark security coded transcripts of normal trials (or ever verdicts reached by something other than a room sized computer that everyone's in awe off. If nothing else robots probably wouldn't find anything so amazing about computerised justice).

Other than that niggle though, it was just so well structured. And (sorry to keep beating this drum) really showed up AHM by doing the same sort of straight parred down the line action story with some heart that it was aiming for but brilliant instead of shite.

One lovely thing about Verity's relationship with Ironfist and her extreme grief over her death is that it's left nice and subtle that he's basically the Transformer version of Hunter.

It was also good that Guido's fill in art meshed pretty well with the Roche stuff, unlike James Raiz stuff on Maximum Dinobots (where you had two great artists but with styles so different it was distracting. IIRC one of the things Roche said last year was he regretted splitting two issues in half between them rather than just having Raiz draw all of the first one).

Rack 'n Ruin
2010-09-10, 03:47 PM
Plus you'd lose the need for a hierarchy structure because everyone's as good as everyone else, so bye bye Optimus Prime (assuming the idea is done properly and you don't end up with the redundancy of a Cyber Leader or Borg Queen).

The secret of what happened to Rack'n'Ruin for the sequel please.

<FLUSH> Ey? Did somebody call? Did I miss anything?

inflatable dalek
2010-09-10, 03:50 PM
<FLUSH> Ey? Did somebody call? Did I miss anything?

You've been relegated to flashback cameos. I'm sorry, so very sorry.

I wonder if the subplot with the Jumpstarters was originally going to be about Rack'N'Ruin and got changed when they decided having them in two different places feeling each others pain was more effective (or even someone thinking a large role for him/them was to much Marvel UK fanwank)?

Rack 'n Ruin
2010-09-10, 03:58 PM
I wonder if the subplot with the Jumpstarters was originally going to be about Rack'N'Ruin and got changed when they decided having them in two different places feeling each others pain was more effective (or even someone thinking a large role for him/them was to much Marvel UK fanwank)?

Bloody show off Jump Starts. Some of us would love to be in two bleeding places at the same time...

(Hear hear! Seconded)

:(:(
. T
. ^

inflatable dalek
2010-09-10, 04:03 PM
Hey, you've got a hammer. The Jumpstarters don't. Losers.

inflatable dalek
2010-09-15, 08:56 PM
Is the trade actually out yet? No sign of it in any of the shops in London I frequented today, including the Forbiden Planet (60 quid for a Sgt. Slaughter toy? What's it made of, his actual flesh?) and self proclaimed biggest bookshop in Europe had it in.

Thunderwave
2010-09-15, 09:11 PM
Is the trade actually out yet? No sign of it in any of the shops in London I frequented today, including the Forbiden Planet (60 quid for a Sgt. Slaughter toy? What's it made of, his actual flesh?) and self proclaimed biggest bookshop in Europe had it in.

It hit the local shop here, in the states, 2 weeks ago. I've got a copy sitting with the issues.

inflatable dalek
2010-09-15, 09:15 PM
It hit the local shop here, in the states, 2 weeks ago. I've got a copy sitting with the issues.

I hate you. :0

Amazon UK just needs to hurry up and get it in stock (or rather avoid the current oddity I'm getting in the listing that says it's eligible for "Amazon Prime" guaranteed next day delivery but won't be dispatched for three to four weeks...)

Denyer
2010-09-15, 09:23 PM
Is the trade actually out yet?
Got it from Amazon* earlier in the week. It's a thing of cruel beauty that's likely to leave you even more depressed at the state of other TF comics these days. The text story's a more than fair substitute for the other profiles. Hell, I'd buy trades of All Hail Megatron and the ongoing if they were reprinted with text stories by James Roberts in the back.

It also drills home to me that comics and prose, together, done right, are perfectly complimentary -- the visual medium provides a context for imagination when reading the prose, just as we probably all tend to read Prime in Cullen's voice. Prose packs in more than comics ever can, in terms of fleshing out a universe.

*Maybe they've blown the initial stock sending out pre-orders?

Cliffjumper
2010-09-15, 09:32 PM
just as we probably all tend to read Prime in Cullen's voice

I don't, I hear Gary Chalk.

Nah, only joking. Who's Gary Chalk?

inflatable dalek
2010-09-15, 10:27 PM
I only found out last month he doesn't pronounce his surname in the "white stubby stick you write on a blackboard with" way.

inflatable dalek
2010-09-16, 12:52 PM
One interesting thing that came up in the video interview I forgot to mention is that the increased interest in it caused by this comic means Roberts and some others are looking into ways of celebrating the tenth anniversary of Eugenesis, possibly with a new actual print copy. Which would be nice as the difficulty I have in reading on a computer screen in depth prose is the main reason I've never bothered with the PDF version on this very site.

snavej
2010-09-17, 04:54 PM
I'm sure that Aequitas does its best to determine guilt but I think that many crimes would still go unpunished and even undetected. The evidence needed for verdicts could be lost in the chaos of war. Transformers are presumably 'forensically aware' and could destroy evidence. Memories could be distorted or deleted by deliberate tampering, trauma, glitches and brain damage due to injury. Some suspected criminals could receive only light sentences or even be set free.

I'm not sure that Aequitas would determine guilt on its own. With a machine this complex and stakes this high, someone would have to check the results. Since Fortress Maximus had the access codes, he could have done the checking. Alternatively, his lieutenants could have done it. Naturally, this would involve networking since it is usually the quickest, most reliable way to gather evidence from perpetrators, victims, officials and witnesses.

Summerhayes
2010-09-21, 10:08 PM
I was a Wreckers virgin until the TPB.
The TPB came on my birthday (September 11) as it happens. I jut finished Reading it today and I'm probably going to read it again tomorrow.

Oh. Em. Gee.
One of the quotes on the back called it Transformers' Watchmen. That's bull. It was nowhere near as up it's own arse as Watchmen; it was one of the best comics I've read in ages; not just TF but in general. In an age where an entire Iron Man issue can consist of Tony Stark sitting in an office discussing renewable energy and Superman can spend six issues going for a long walk it proved that a comic can be clever and have characters whilst still having awesome roboviolence.

I'm in love with Nick Roche.

swoon

snavej
2010-09-22, 12:26 PM
I wonder if the Autobots will form another group to replace the Wreckers? Maybe they already have a group that could do the job: perhaps one or two combining teams? Dinobots? One of the giant Autobots? We wait and see.

inflatable dalek
2010-09-22, 05:29 PM
I'm in love with Nick Roche.

I saw him first.

The book has arrived. Ohhhhhhhhhh.