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verytired
2010-12-24, 08:33 PM
So, the religion of the Transformers. I think we could a lot of mileage out of it in the game, and it could be the cornerstone of what makes the game unique. I wanted to hash something out and present it to Warcry and see if it was awesome enough... But everyone's got good ideas man, I can see them in the other discussion threads. I would love to hash it out here. Anyways, my two cents:

The All Spark as I understood it (preferred to think of it) always felt very Buddhist to me. Sparks coming from it and returning to it, bringing from their lives all their experiences and such, and each new spark being composed of the whole: to use a crap analogy, like plasticine. Celestial plasticine. Okay, awful analogy, forget it.

And, I always thought that Primus was made of this as well: a large portion of it, but still of it none the less. As in, The One that the Ultimate Guide mentions that Primus and Unicron came from was in fact the All Spark. So, we have Nirvana making God and Satan. Or Satan, and from Satan God, which is just an awesome twist on most faiths.

As a place to start, what do people think?

Aero Blade
2010-12-25, 01:19 AM
The one thing I would most like to see out of the religion in this game, is the centers of it, aka churches, or what would seem most fitting to me - a temple. We hear so much about the transformer religion in various meantions, and occasionally a relic such as the Matrix, but there must have been a place of worship somewhere. If we wind up going with what is discussed in the other planning thread, Megatron will be attacking locations such as this.

Blackjack
2010-12-25, 03:07 AM
Agreed. Temples should be there, with religious guys like, say, Vector Prime, the Keeper and/or Boltax running them.

Maybe a temple for worshipping Unicron as well? I mean, multiple religions and Satanism exist in real life...

Aero Blade
2010-12-25, 04:50 AM
Maybe a temple for worshipping Unicron as well?
I somehow doubt Primus would appreciate a monument to Unicron being built on his body. Worship of Unicron would probably be considered cultic in this sort of setting, and it's unlikely there would be visible structures for it. I wouldn't doubt underground meetings somewhere, but chances of there being openly visible dedications to Unicron would be extremely slim, and probably very temporary, if you get my drift ;)

Blackjack
2010-12-25, 05:28 AM
Hmm... makes sense. Although isn't Primus supposed to be dormant and everything?

Aero Blade
2010-12-25, 01:29 PM
Most likely, but in most societies the worship of a destructive god is frowned upon, so regardless of Primus's state (or the knowledge of what he is ;) ) most people still aren't likely to allow a church of Unicron to openly be built

Springer85
2010-12-25, 02:19 PM
Agreed. Temples should be there, with religious guys like, say, Vector Prime, the Keeper and/or Boltax running them.

Maybe we even get to see Xaaron or Alpha Trion? :D

Blackjack
2010-12-25, 03:02 PM
Most likely, but in most societies the worship of a destructive god is frowned upon, so regardless of Primus's state (or the knowledge of what he is ;) ) most people still aren't likely to allow a church of Unicron to openly be built

Aye, that was what I was thinking. But the cultists can be there, kind of like the Marvel comics setting, yeah? Unicron-worshipping temples would be too much, I agree.

Aero Blade
2010-12-25, 04:03 PM
Maybe we even get to see Xaaron or Alpha Trion? :D

I could definitely see Alpha Trion as a temple sage, perhaps even being that while still serving as a senator, he being their representative. That or he becomes a political figure after Megatron tries to blow all the buildings

Warcry
2010-12-25, 07:27 PM
I could see Megatron trying to kill Alpha Trion actually, if he's an important figure in the Church of Primus. He could be forced into hiding or even become a martyr.

verytired
2010-12-25, 09:38 PM
I never saw Boltax as a religious figure: he's a competent archivist, but he doesn't have any ties to gods.

Temples are important, and we could bring in concepts like the Matrix flames to them as well, were we to include them. If we expand beyond monotheism and include entities like the Covenant in the mythology, then we could tie in certain churches and lines of thinking with those entities. I'd like to hear of the 'Temples devoted to the patience of Libras', or the people dedicated to the books of Leonicus.

Unicron having a secret cult is awesome, and their are some obvious potential members such as Bludgeon, Mindwipe, Bugy and more that we could include in it. But I feel that we couldn't get into it in the time we'd allow ourselves on Cybertron.

One big question: Does Megatron Believe?

Aero Blade
2010-12-25, 11:34 PM
Megatron most likely doesn't believe, and that may be to the advantage of potential infultrators. If Megatron does declare war on transformer religion as a whole, he might be an appealing tool to Unicron worshipers who would love to see the chaos and destruction that his regime would cause. Let him do his work for a while, then perhaps try to get rid of him once he has expended his usefulness in trampling the other religions.

Overall we wouldn't get too much time to explore fully the religious aspects, but it would be a plot device that could wind up causing trouble later once the transformers settle on earth. A rushed evac may wind up allowing unsavories to infilltrate into things, or just the clashing of mixed backgrounds once they try to settle down. And if Megs is not sucessful in wiping out the religious supporters as he might like, that'd be something else for him to pester the Autobots about ;)

Clogs
2010-12-26, 12:04 AM
*sulks* Warcry said I could start a religion thread... Yet is Christmas, and so here I am joining in with a ho-ho-ho :D

My penny'orth:

Simon Furman is god, but we will need some main premises to start with and those already provided by continuity are fine within mythological parameters. An unknown force, referred to as Primus when named, brought life to a new universe through the medium of his own self, made manifest in The Well of Allsparks when he 'settled down' to rest after his great enterprise. The creator was/is vulnerable to the forces of entropy, manifest as Unicron, since all things would like to return to their basic state (okay, not proper physics, but you get the drift). To ensure his safety, Primus wrapped himself in a physical shield, a whole world, upon which he placed one of his primary races - and there I stop, because I have theories based on Beast Machines etc and you don't want me rabbiting on as this is a thread for general input :)

'War Within' gave us a secret sect of Unicron worshippers - you all know who some of them were - and there have been brief points in stories where Unicron followers have come out of the metalwork. Chiefly, though, as I said above, I see Unicron as the entropic force in the universe where Primus is the creative; where one cannot technically exist without the other. Y'know, perhaps Unicron is also a bit afraid of Primus since, no matter what is destroyed, the creator, in this context, might awake again...

Alpha Trion is, it has been indicated more than once, one of the original Thirteen, so I would like to retain that idea. I've seen it suggested that he is the keeper of Cybertron history or put in place to ensure the continuation of the race as Primus' first line of protection against Unicron; whatever... we could develop a new idea, if we wished. The other twelve seem to represent physical forces, such as space/time (Vector Prime), but we would be best advised, in an RPG context, to leave well alone there!

Alpha Trion is also linked to Vector Sigma, which seems to be both a standalone mainframe distinct from the one Primus has downloaded himself into (a back-up, perhaps?) and capable of channelling power from The Allspark. I've toyed with the idea that the Quintessons inveighed themselves on the Cybertronians, seeing a business opportunity, and tried to control Vector Sigma with a shell programme - which Vector Sigma eventually fought back against the only possible way, giving it a Spark, thus subverting it into the Oracle.

verytired - I do go for the idea of the Sacred Flame of Primus and a Temple, probably sited in the Council Complex. Used it myself in a short story for AutoAssembly and am currently trying to write fanfic based in a lost underground worship site known as Firstforge - I'm sure you can work out my ideas there.

Yeah, I've thought about this for a while, trying to link all the continuity creation/history ideas... sad little mythologist, ain't I...

Boltax might be a thorn in the Primus worshippers' side, what with his alternative religion of knowledge. Would be interesting if he denied Primus and did not endear himself to someone like Zeta Prime.

Warcry
2010-12-26, 06:55 AM
I scorn The Thirteen and all they represent!

...

Erm, what I meant to say is that The Thirteen are something that we probably want to avoid just because Hasbro have arbitrarily decided to build them up to be way, way more powerful than they were in the actual fiction they showed up in. Alpha Trion is meant to be a wise old man, not a demigod who exists as a single entity across all possible universes.

Personally I'd like to steer clear of merging the Primus and Quintesson origins. It's a good idea, but because it's a good idea it's been done to death at this point and nothing we do is going to come close to something like Eugenesis.

I'd like to spend time exploring Atechnogenesis (the belief that Transformer life naturally evolved from non-sentient machines) and how those secular Transformers view the religious establishment.

As far as Megatron goes, I don't think "Unbeliever" would really be the right label. He wouldn't be an atheist per se, and the best label for him would probably be agnostic. He wouldn't deny Primus so much as he just doesn't care if Primus exists or not. To Megatron, if Primus is real then he's an evil god who created a slave race to fight his war and if he's a myth then the church as an institution exists for no reason other than to exploit the stupid. Either way he'd want to destroy the church and wipe Primus from the Transformers' collective consciousness.

As far as Vector Sigma goes, Aero and I discussed the idea that it's just one node in a planet-wide network of Vector computers, because it just makes sense for there to be some redundancy built into the system. Of course, after a worldwide holocaust the odds of there only being one left are fairly good...

Re: Unicron, I had a thought. What if he's dormant in the same way Primus is, slowly shaping the world he's trapped in into the most efficient engine of destruction he can imagine? I could see a group of unwitting Transformers settling on his surface, only to be slowly corrupted and finally turned into his enthralled heralds when he wakes up...

Blackjack
2010-12-26, 08:32 AM
Personally, I think we should keep the origins obscured, just to make things more interesting. I mean, like, some people will believe in Primus and some in Quintessons, but none of them could be proven correct, like multiple religions among the humans. We got to focus on the TFs, remember, not their origin. Sort of...

And there must be atheists. Like Jetfire or Shockwave or Perceptor... whose brains would probably explode if they try to wrap their minds around Primus.

Like the idea of a group of TFs discovering Unicron. Ditto for Matrix Flames.

verytired
2010-12-26, 11:50 AM
I think a good way of obscuring religions would be different peoples interpretations of the religion itself. Their are very few examples where that hasn't happened in the faiths on earth after all. Makes me think of Bludgeons belief in the 'Ultimate Warrior' at the end of Marvel G1 being at odds with the beliefs on the 'Last Autobot'...

Transformers worshipping Primus as a gatherer of knowledge, others worshipping Primus as a protector: Some believing him to be unrelated to Unicron, others believing he is one of a Pantheon.

Then we have worshippers of knowledge with Boltax, and others believing in Atechnogenesis (Jetfire? :) ), others worshipping x'hal... :)

Blackjack
2010-12-26, 12:37 PM
Xal! X'hal is from DC comics. Starfire's race's goddess, I believe.

In retrospect Boltax doesn't seem too much like a religious figure to me, just a slightly loony and obsessive librarian.

Springer85
2010-12-26, 01:04 PM
Personally, I think we should keep the origins obscured, just to make things more interesting. I mean, like, some people will believe in Primus and some in Quintessons, but none of them could be proven correct, like multiple religions among the humans. We got to focus on the TFs, remember, not their origin. Sort of...

I've said it before, but I think the vagueness of their origin is great. I know I'm going to have a character or 2 in my roster that don' believeor have lost their faith in Primus.

Like the idea of a group of TFs discovering Unicron. Ditto for Matrix Flames.

Oh! Awesome! Like a group of mechs accidentally landing on a planet that turns out to be Unicron? :D

What about Cybertron though? Is Cybertron Primus transformed? Or is he just a planet? Or is that still a secret? :p

Blackjack
2010-12-26, 01:10 PM
Oh! Awesome! Like a group of mechs accidentally landing on a planet that turns out to be Unicron? :D

-points to Warcry's post above-

I can see a couple of candidates for this kind of thing. Bludgeon, Bugly and Mindwipe are the obvious ones, so is Thunderwing...

BTW, Galvatron, Scourge and Cyclonus -- there from the start, or would be Megatron/Seekers/Insecticons reformatted?

What about Cybertron though? Is Cybertron Primus transformed? Or is he just a planet? Or is that still a secret? :p

While it is not my place to decide, I HATE the Primus is a planet concept. Makes Unicron and Primus too similar, methinks. I love the bastard god vibe we had in the Marvel comics.

verytired
2010-12-26, 08:45 PM
Xal! X'hal is from DC comics. Starfire's race's goddess, I believe.

OK, that would be an awkward belief system for a Transformer :D


While it is not my place to decide, I HATE the Primus is a planet concept. Makes Unicron and Primus too similar, methinks. I love the bastard god vibe we had in the Marvel comics.

Seconded. Unicron as a planet sized threat is one near-impossible thing to factor in, but Cybertron transforming gets a no from me and all.

Warcry
2010-12-26, 11:48 PM
Primus has always been a planet though, hasn't he? I mean, when Unicron started to eat handfuls on the cityscape in the Marvel comics he was screaming in pain. Turning into a robot is taking it a step farther, sure, but it always made sense to me. Or at least, it made as much sense to me as Unicron having a robot mode did.

Personally I think Unicron works better as a threat if we treat him as a giant, hostile sentient planet first and foremost rather than as just another in a series of progressively bigger robots. Him having a robot mode that's small enough for the Transformers to fight has always seemed to me to...I dunno...understate how freaking huge and dangerous he was. He'd be less relatable if he never transformed, sure, but who says a god needs to be relatable? :)

Honestly neither Primus or Unicron ever really seemed all that godlike to me. In fiction they really only seem to be one notch up from the citybots in terms of size and power. If we're going to use them as characters at some point I'd love to find a way to get across the sheer vastness of their bodies and minds. And I'd like them to be different from each other, too.

BTW, Galvatron, Scourge and Cyclonus -- there from the start, or would be Megatron/Seekers/Insecticons reformatted?
What do you guys think? I'd like to hold them back and only use 'em alongside Unicron, personally.


Do you suppose the Church of Primus would be hierarchical like the Catholic Church, with a robo-pope who's supposedly the infallible font of truth and justice? Would it be like Islam, with an official set of holy books but no single official interpretation of them and no authority figure who can 'speak' for the faith as a whole? Or would it be less-organized than that, with the Church only preaching the basic myths and otherwise encouraging their flock to find their own personal relationship with Primus, so that different characters can have wildly-different takes on the whole thing?

optimusskids
2010-12-27, 12:00 AM
I can see Unicron starting off as a Satan like figure that mechs don't really believe in that has faded into myths and legend and a lot of people getting a big shock if he turns up. Their would be a lot of converts in a very short period to Primus' religion if and when he turns up.

Depending on the timescales i can see the religion having veered off in different directions much like in the Life of Brian and having everything from the equivalent of Cathlocism tothe equivalent of the C of E holding Autopart swap meets in order to raise money to give empties hot oil

one way of reconciling the Quintesson and Primus origin stories that just occured to me would be if Primus was the original control computer/ AI for the factory of Cybertron a bit like Asimov's Multivac which since the Quints disappeared has developed and evolved and has been come to be seen over time as a god by the creatures it has created.

Unicron could be a similar computer that has gone rogue either because of the influence of a breakaway group of Quints or because of a flaw in it's programming or even a computer run by a rival trading company which would explain it animosity and why it wants to destroy Primus commercial rivalry had warped in it's mine into religious zealotry and hatred.

A bit of a prosaic explanation but on that reconciles the conflicting reports#

Transformers religion could be a way developed by Primus to prevent anyone mass producing robots and threatening to take over the universe with their numbers. If they were basically commercial products that could just be churned off a production line with personalities downloaded from somewhere it would be easy to just mass produce an army but if mechs believed in allsparks and Matrixes and religion that sort of behaviour would be taboo or considered impossible.

Blackjack
2010-12-27, 03:35 AM
Primus has always been a planet though, hasn't he? I mean, when Unicron started to eat handfuls on the cityscape in the Marvel comics he was screaming in pain. Turning into a robot is taking it a step farther, sure, but it always made sense to me. Or at least, it made as much sense to me as Unicron having a robot mode did.

But that simply makes Primus and Unicron literally mirror images of each other, something that I seriously dislike in fiction. (Plus, the first time Primus transforms in the Cybertron series, he got owned by Starscream).

Personally I think Unicron works better as a threat if we treat him as a giant, hostile sentient planet first and foremost rather than as just another in a series of progressively bigger robots. Him having a robot mode that's small enough for the Transformers to fight has always seemed to me to...I dunno...understate how freaking huge and dangerous he was. He'd be less relatable if he never transformed, sure, but who says a god needs to be relatable? :)

Honestly neither Primus or Unicron ever really seemed all that godlike to me. In fiction they really only seem to be one notch up from the citybots in terms of size and power. If we're going to use them as characters at some point I'd love to find a way to get across the sheer vastness of their bodies and minds. And I'd like them to be different from each other, too.

I would like the whole 'Hate Plague'-esque thing that Unicron can do be explored, more corrupting the innocent (say, with Dark Energon) as well as the whole Entropy thing that the Fallen spouts out about. Make him more a dark god trapped in a physical body instead of just another big Transformer like the original Movie treated him.

Primus, meanwhile, I'd stick with Marvel comics all the way. A bastard light god out of touch with the children he had created... instead of basically a gigantic version of a wise Autobot in the Cybertron cartoon.


What do you guys think? I'd like to hold them back and only use 'em alongside Unicron, personally.

I don't see myself playing as any of the three (maybe Galvatron because of his batshit insanity, but I don't think I'd be allowed another Decepticon WMD on my roster), so either way is fine by me.

I would really, really appreciate if the trio were their own mechs instead of being reformatted Skywarps and Thundercrackers and Insecticons.

Do you suppose the Church of Primus would be hierarchical like the Catholic Church, with a robo-pope who's supposedly the infallible font of truth and justice? Would it be like Islam, with an official set of holy books but no single official interpretation of them and no authority figure who can 'speak' for the faith as a whole? Or would it be less-organized than that, with the Church only preaching the basic myths and otherwise encouraging their flock to find their own personal relationship with Primus, so that different characters can have wildly-different takes on the whole thing?

All of the above, ideally.

As in Earth we have Islam, Catholic and Christian (which stemmed from the same belief), so can the church of Primus have multiple different religions and organizations. It's just hard to maintain that much variety in the little time we'd see the temple, though, so if we have to pick one I like the less-organized thing that tells people to find their own journey.

Vector Prime as a pope would rock, though.

I can see Unicron starting off as a Satan like figure that mechs don't really believe in that has faded into myths and legend and a lot of people getting a big shock if he turns up. Their would be a lot of converts in a very short period to Primus' religion if and when he turns up.

...But also many people that would turn to Unicron, right? Satanism and all that. Hey, it worked when Unicron converted the Fallen! Plus, when Unicron turns up I would see opportunistic people like Starscream going over to the chaos god's side.

one way of reconciling the Quintesson and Primus origin stories that just occured to me would be if Primus was the original control computer/ AI for the factory of Cybertron a bit like Asimov's Multivac which since the Quints disappeared has developed and evolved and has been come to be seen over time as a god by the creatures it has created.

Unicron could be a similar computer that has gone rogue either because of the influence of a breakaway group of Quints or because of a flaw in it's programming or even a computer run by a rival trading company which would explain it animosity and why it wants to destroy Primus commercial rivalry had warped in it's mine into religious zealotry and hatred.

That's basically Eugenesis! :)

I disliked the idea of Primus and Unicron being treated as computers instead of real gods, though. For all the power Primus and Unicron had, the Quintessons surely would be much more powerful? But Eugenesis was so well written that I can't help but loving it all the way.

optimusskids
2010-12-27, 10:14 AM
I did think about that maybe the Quintessons were powerful at the time plus left alone for millenia the computers could have developed far beyond their creators imaginings.

Plus for whatever reason the Quintesson race has regressed maybe because of some civil war and you are left with the remanants of a once great empire surviving as scattered colonies still fairly advanced but nothing like before.

As for satanism yes the obverse is true certain mechs would be attracted to the chaos god.

Clogs
2010-12-27, 11:30 PM
Well, being vague about one's origins is what religion is, in part, based on.. multiple theories abound (based on the Creator(s) principle) in our understanding, so why not in that of the Cybertronians? Granted, machines should be able to record absolute information i.e. Boltax's idea, but what if the information has been somehow lost/corrupted over time?

Hm, so let's have Ancient Cybertronian as a programming language that almost everyone(! except Alpha Trion?) has forgotten. Not like Latin - more like the symbols on Easter Island that no one has ever managed to interpret...?

I like the Unicron idea proposed by Warcry. Makes for a sound explanation if we want to keep gods out of this, but introduce their messengers, as it were.

Bearing in mind what has been said in this thread: I would like to explore the possibility that the Cybertronians are indeed programmed to expand their empire - or whatever you'd like to call it - in order to defend Primus. Also, it would explain, in part, why there are colonies out there and why a group might unknowingly land on Unicron. However, mechs like Zeta might interpret this programming as a call to conquest by the righteous. Yeah - that'd make him one Pit of a nasty blastard when it came down to it.

And you think Megatron is maniacally cybercidal? Whoa, when intolerance rules, someone kicks back, so why not him? Interesting, again, to have Megatron start out from a freedom fighter kind of role and blur boundaries which would later firm up as his version of intolerance spread?

*girly squeal* :lol:

Aero Blade
2010-12-28, 01:41 AM
Hm, so let's have Ancient Cybertronian as a programming language that almost everyone(! except Alpha Trion?) has forgotten. Not like Latin - more like the symbols on Easter Island that no one has ever managed to interpret...?
This is an idea I've had for myself as well, Ancient Cybertronian dialects and/or coding. I wouldn't extended it to just Alpha Trion, though. Likely those that are protecting the temples and relics would also know the language as well, but they're not likely to share this knowledge with anyone who isn't inside of their circle.

I could also see the old language as useful to them in situations where they might want to keep things private, using it like a secret code. Even more reason for Megatron to want them removed, or perhaps even try to capture them for the knowledge to aid in his attemp to destroy opposition.

*girly squeal* :lol:
:eyebrow:

Blackjack
2010-12-28, 03:30 AM
Well, being vague about one's origins is what religion is, in part, based on.. multiple theories abound (based on the Creator(s) principle) in our understanding, so why not in that of the Cybertronians? Granted, machines should be able to record absolute information i.e. Boltax's idea, but what if the information has been somehow lost/corrupted over time?

Yeah, better do that. I like it when origins when are kept obscure.

I like the Unicron idea proposed by Warcry. Makes for a sound explanation if we want to keep gods out of this, but introduce their messengers, as it were.

One of you RPG staffers better introduce the Fallen somewhere down the line or I'll cry. ;)

Hm, so let's have Ancient Cybertronian as a programming language that almost everyone(! except Alpha Trion?) has forgotten. Not like Latin - more like the symbols on Easter Island that no one has ever managed to interpret...?

This is an idea I've had for myself as well, Ancient Cybertronian dialects and/or coding. I wouldn't extended it to just Alpha Trion, though. Likely those that are protecting the temples and relics would also know the language as well, but they're not likely to share this knowledge with anyone who isn't inside of their circle.

"It's the language of the Primes! I don't read this, but these guys, they'll translate it for you. They're Seekers, pal, Seekers, the oldest of the old!"

It would make sense, I guess. Ancient Cybertronian, Modern Cybertronian...

Warcry
2010-12-28, 05:56 PM
I can see Unicron starting off as a Satan like figure that mechs don't really believe in that has faded into myths and legend and a lot of people getting a big shock if he turns up. Their would be a lot of converts in a very short period to Primus' religion if and when he turns up.
I'd actually think people would be more likely to abandon their faith in the face of Satan showing up to destroy the world, since Primus obviously isn't doing much to protect them. But maybe I'm just more cynical than you.

But that simply makes Primus and Unicron literally mirror images of each other, something that I seriously dislike in fiction. (Plus, the first time Primus transforms in the Cybertron series, he got owned by Starscream).
But Primus is supposed to be Unicron's mirror image. It's the whole point of him, to be "a yin to Unicron's yang".

I'd rather see agents of Primus and Unicron fighting it out than the gods themselves, though.

I disliked the idea of Primus and Unicron being treated as computers instead of real gods, though. For all the power Primus and Unicron had, the Quintessons surely would be much more powerful?
Me too. And the Quintessons are comedy tentacle aliens, not Cthulhu. I can't wrap my brain around the concept of them being strong enough to subvert the will of a god.

Hm, so let's have Ancient Cybertronian as a programming language that almost everyone(! except Alpha Trion?) has forgotten. Not like Latin - more like the symbols on Easter Island that no one has ever managed to interpret...?
Programming languages don't work that way. :( If it's actually in use for anything (say, the code that runs a Transformer's OS, or the Vector computers) then it would need to be compiled into 1s and 0s before it could be executed. And once it's been reduced to binary it would be a fairly trivial (if time-consuming) task to decipher it into a modern language. There could be religious taboos and/or secular laws against it, but all it would take is a single mad scientist with the right resources to do it.

Mind you, the code itself would probably be so hideously complicated that it would be hard to follow what it actually does even once it's been translated into something readable. Considering how complex Transformers are it would be an undertaking some orders of magnitude greater than the Human Genome Project to understand it all, but if they're just looking for a specific thing (like, say, how to give a Transformer five alt-modes... :glance:) it would be doable.

Of course, if the church and the state are both trying to suppress such knowledge it might fall to the Decepticons to be the only ones willing to fund this kind of research. If Megatron has been in charge of Kaon for some time before our story starts (either seizing power or even being elected because of his massive charisma) the city could be a Mecca for scientists who want to conduct their work without being repressed by ancient superstitions.

However, mechs like Zeta might interpret this programming as a call to conquest by the righteous. Yeah - that'd make him one Pit of a nasty blastard when it came down to it.
Wouldn't that actually make him Nova Prime (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Nova_Prime), not Zeta? He'd certainly be nothing like the well-meaning but somewhat ineffectual old man that War For Cybertron made Zeta out to be.

Nova Prime works for me though, if that's what you want to do.

Blackjack
2010-12-28, 08:08 PM
But Primus is supposed to be Unicron's mirror image. It's the whole point of him, to be "a yin to Unicron's yang".

Maybe.

Doesn't excuse the fact that robot mode Primus was executed like crap, though. Not that Unicron was much better, mind, but TFTM and On the Edge of Extinction gave his robot mode a couple of Crowning Moments of Awesome that made it worthwile. All I remembered robot mode Primus doing was getting owned by Starscream, owning Starscream, possessing Jolt and later on using a gigantic, phallic ship as a cannon. And aiming it down a hole.

Plus, I don't think a robot-on-robot battle would particularly work out well...

I'd rather see agents of Primus and Unicron fighting it out than the gods themselves, though.

Now this, I agree with.

Me too. And the Quintessons are comedy tentacle aliens, not Cthulhu. I can't wrap my brain around the concept of them being strong enough to subvert the will of a god.

Quintessons are either money-minded mercenaries (season three), sadistic manipulators obsessed with Transformers' destruction (Space Pirates, FFOD and a couple other episodes that overlap with the former), or a bunch of kangaroo court, which I don't think have been pursued much outside TFTM.

Cthulhu. Ahahaha.

Mind you, the code itself would probably be so hideously complicated that it would be hard to follow what it actually does even once it's been translated into something readable. Considering how complex Transformers are it would be an undertaking some orders of magnitude greater than the Human Genome Project to understand it all, but if they're just looking for a specific thing (like, say, how to give a Transformer five alt-modes... :glance:) it would be doable.

That's what one-eyes purple scientists with no emotions are supposed to do, what?

Come on, Shockwave has to do something to earn his paycheck other than being easily the most badass Decepticon in history.

Of course, if the church and the state are both trying to suppress such knowledge it might fall to the Decepticons to be the only ones willing to fund this kind of research.

:up: Massively liking this. Might be something Zeta or Sentinel Prime orders to do in case something horrendously mutated comes out, kind of like IDW's Thunderwing.

If Megatron has been in charge of Kaon for some time before our story starts (either seizing power or even being elected because of his massive charisma) the city could be a Mecca for scientists who want to conduct their work without being repressed by ancient superstitions.

Which would lead to the aforementioned transformer with five alternate modes, yes? :D

Wouldn't that actually make him Nova Prime (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Nova_Prime), not Zeta? He'd certainly be nothing like the well-meaning but somewhat ineffectual old man that War For Cybertron made Zeta out to be.

Eh, always viewed Nova Prime as IDW's Sentinel Prime with an actual personality, and a kind of overconfident and disillusioned war veteran that has grown, how do you say... senile over the years. Basically filling the whole 'old Star Trek captain before Kirk takes the helm' trope or whatever it is called.

IDW Nova Prime is a self-justified expansionist which I dearly love, though. Nemesis Prime FTW! Never mind that he gets the most pisspoor exit in IDW, after all the big deal made out of him before he gets taken out by someone he didn't expect.

Clogs
2010-12-28, 10:43 PM
I'd actually think people would be more likely to abandon their faith in the face of Satan showing up to destroy the world, since Primus obviously isn't doing much to protect them. But maybe I'm just more cynical than you.

Yup, but it is a definite possibility in human behaviourism.

Wouldn't that actually make him Nova Prime (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Nova_Prime), not Zeta? He'd certainly be nothing like the well-meaning but somewhat ineffectual old man that War For Cybertron made Zeta out to be.

Nova Prime works for me though, if that's what you want to do.

No, Zeta as an intolerant leader trying to put the population in it's place. A bit of a bumbler, making mistakes, getting it wrong, but not Nova... In fact, I was thinking that he abhors what Nova did (going out there with a part of the Sacred Flame which is now lost to the planet) and is trying to put it right. That could mean he alternates between an incompetent, led by others, and over-reacting nastily to make his point.

If Nova is to be treated as having set off with a hand-picked crew, that is? Gives us the opportunity for a colony, perhaps the one that inadvertently lands on Unicron?

Blackjack
2010-12-29, 04:05 AM
Yup, but it is a definite possibility in human behaviourism.

Oh, just imagine what would happen if in the Marvel comics if Unicron, who is basically Satan, simply came looming over Cybertron. Many's first instinct would be RUN RUN RUNNNN! Hell, even the normally stoic Bludgeon did this in the comic itself, and Primus was standing right beside him.

Minds would literally shut down, like Highbrow and Brainstorm in the Marvel comics, as well as Shockwave. Poor, poor Shockwave who can't get his mind around the concept of dark gods.

But what if someone like, say, Starscream haven't been warned about this prior by Primus? I would bet you that he would try to make an ally out of Unicron, convert to Satanism so to speak. Megatron did this as well (well, tried to) in the Dreamwave Armada comics' conclusion. The alure of power is just that great.

No, Zeta as an intolerant leader trying to put the population in it's place. A bit of a bumbler, making mistakes, getting it wrong, but not Nova... In fact, I was thinking that he abhors what Nova did (going out there with a part of the Sacred Flame which is now lost to the planet) and is trying to put it right. That could mean he alternates between an incompetent, led by others, and over-reacting nastily to make his point.

Maybe. Zeta always struck me as this old, slightly arrogant, somewhat ineffectual old man that's past his prime, so to speak, but is still good enough to put up a fight against Megatron. Definitely not the crazy expansionist that Nova Prime was.

If Nova is to be treated as having set off with a hand-picked crew, that is? Gives us the opportunity for a colony, perhaps the one that inadvertently lands on Unicron?

Maybe as a background information that we might pursue later on when we want to introduce Unicron. Characters could name drop this event several times. IMO we have enough on-Cybertron plot threads as it is...

Brave Maximus
2010-12-29, 04:53 AM
Do you suppose the Church of Primus would be hierarchical like the Catholic Church, with a robo-pope who's supposedly the infallible font of truth and justice? Would it be like Islam, with an official set of holy books but no single official interpretation of them and no authority figure who can 'speak' for the faith as a whole? Or would it be less-organized than that, with the Church only preaching the basic myths and otherwise encouraging their flock to find their own personal relationship with Primus, so that different characters can have wildly-different takes on the whole thing?

I like the idea of a totalitarian church... or at least, what once was.
Which would make this:

Of course, if the church and the state are both trying to suppress such knowledge it might fall to the Decepticons to be the only ones willing to fund this kind of research. If Megatron has been in charge of Kaon for some time before our story starts (either seizing power or even being elected because of his massive charisma) the city could be a Mecca for scientists who want to conduct their work without being repressed by ancient superstitions.

Freakin awesome.

Essentially the Decepticons turned into the Illuminati.... A group who opposed the church to do scientific research and then used that knowledge and power to try and take over society....

Anyway... having a bit of an idea, but it's far too late in the evening... I'll try and write something in the next 24hrs

Warcry
2010-12-29, 07:01 AM
Plus, I don't think a robot-on-robot battle would particularly work out well...
No, probably not. But it would be hilarious(ly bad).

That's what one-eyes purple scientists with no emotions are supposed to do, what?
Or brown, grey and off-white ones that just happen to look a lot like Transmetal Megatron? Or big, purple and green ones with claws, or flying egomaniacal white ones with blue, silver and red stripes...

Depends on who's being played and what their jobs are, really.

Which would lead to the aforementioned transformer with five alternate modes, yes? :D
Oh, it would certainly be a viable possibility. In fact, Megatron's first raid on a temple could well be so that they can get access to a Vector computer and corrupt its' programming to produce Sixshot.

If Nova is to be treated as having set off with a hand-picked crew, that is? Gives us the opportunity for a colony, perhaps the one that inadvertently lands on Unicron?
I don't think we'll have time to delve into such ancient history right off the bat, but it does make a lot of sense.

Maybe. Zeta always struck me as this old, slightly arrogant, somewhat ineffectual old man that's past his prime, so to speak, but is still good enough to put up a fight against Megatron. Definitely not the crazy expansionist that Nova Prime was.
That was how I read him too, TBH.

Essentially the Decepticons turned into the Illuminati...
Oh great, now I'm going to hear Morgan Everett talking every time I read Megatron's lines...

Blackjack
2010-12-29, 08:06 AM
No, probably not. But it would be hilarious(ly bad).

Exactly... and Primus won't have a need for robot mode either. He's got an army of cannon fodder disposable expendable creations err, children to protect him. While Unicron has to have something to slap Transformers around if he doesn't want to be blown up Death Star style.

Or brown, grey and off-white ones that just happen to look a lot like Transmetal Megatron?

Um, Armada Predacon?

Or big, purple and green ones with claws,

Dear old Scorpy!

or flying egomaniacal white ones with blue, silver and red stripes...

You lost me at this one. Deluge? Scalpel? Umm.. repainted Constructicons? Fistfight? (Someone has to make Fistfight Igor to Shockwave's Frankenstein.)

Depends on who's being played and what their jobs are, really.

Aye. Depending on which 'G1' he is in, Scorponok is either a guilt-ridden general, a mindless WMD, a mad scientist, a Bond villain, a zombie, a bland villain, a conflicted anti-hero...

Oh, it would certainly be a viable possibility. In fact, Megatron's first raid on a temple could well be so that they can get access to a Vector computer and corrupt its' programming to produce Sixshot.

Squeeeee! :swirly:

Obsidian and Scorponok would happily lead the raid for Megatron.

Essentially the Decepticons turned into the Illuminati.... A group who opposed the church to do scientific research and then used that knowledge and power to try and take over society....

Hey, another older player is coming back! Hi, Brave Max! :)

Yeah, I could see the Decepticons doing that. Maybe stuff like Sixshot, the Combiners, the Pretenders, the Micromasters... heck, maybe even the Insecticons' cloning powers (a possible plot point in the new RPG with limitations) could be gained from old arts contained inside whatever stuff the church guys guarded.

Aero Blade
2010-12-29, 01:53 PM
I'm gonna jump briefly back on the Quintesson thing that was further up the thread, and say I agree with the thought that they may have once been far more powerful creatures to have nestled their way into controlling Cybertron. Transformers are quite organized and powerful creatures - when you look at modern Quintessons, the equation of them taking over just doesn't work.

Now what they were in the past is probably strongly debatable (I have some extensive ideas myself) but we wouldn't really be able to explore that without backing the board up way way far into the past. I think however we could probably sum it up as them having gotten weak, lazy, and complacent with their slaves having done everything for them, to the point where their slaves were able to overthrow their previous superiors. Whatever past glory the Quints have is now far out of reach. Maybe....

Blackjack
2010-12-29, 03:11 PM
Perhaps the Quintessons had some kind of civil war, causing the older Imperial Majestrix (or whatever you call him) and the competent high guard to be killed. And the new Imperial Majestrix might be incompetent or something similar, allowing the Transformers to rise up.

Plus it would hauntingly be reminiscent to the Autobots and Decepticons' Civil War.

I've particularly liked Eugenesis and 3H having the Quintessons conquer and dominate Cybertron when Primus is dormant, and then assuming control of the Transformers, retaking control over the Vector computers and their production.

Personally screw the Quintessons. Let us tell the story of the Transformers, introduce the Quints later on when necessary.

Brave Maximus
2010-12-29, 03:21 PM
Hey, another older player is coming back! Hi, Brave Max! :)

Yeah, I could see the Decepticons doing that. Maybe stuff like Sixshot, the Combiners, the Pretenders, the Micromasters... heck, maybe even the Insecticons' cloning powers (a possible plot point in the new RPG with limitations) could be gained from old arts contained inside whatever stuff the church guys guarded.

/wave

I was looking at it from a slightly different angle. Not so much arts contained with in - but vast ammounts of untapped information. The church never would have allowed anyone to do research into it.
Think of how the old catholic church (Even the Rabbi's or the Mosque) controlled who married, kept track of birth/Baptisim records, the whole nine yards - I think the Church of Primus would have hidden the code away to prevent anyone from developing that kind of advancement. To keep the Code pure as Primus intended us to be and not a modified abomination from the Pit-Spawned Inferno of Unicron that the Decepticons would have us become.

Blackjack
2010-12-29, 04:06 PM
I was looking at it from a slightly different angle. Not so much arts contained with in - but vast ammounts of untapped information. The church never would have allowed anyone to do research into it. Think of how the old catholic church (Even the Rabbi's or the Mosque) controlled who married, kept track of birth/Baptisim records, the whole nine yards - I think the Church of Primus would have hidden the code away to prevent anyone from developing that kind of advancement. To keep the Code pure as Primus intended us to be and not a modified abomination from the Pit-Spawned Inferno of Unicron that the Decepticons would have us become.

Aye. From what I gathered from our little schemings here, I kind of thought of it like some kind of analogue to the humans' complete genome or something like that.

Understandably the church and pragmatic guys like Zeta or Sentinel wouldn't want bureaucrats having access to resources that would allow them to produce an army of gestalts and six-changers. The fallout and potential for power perversion would be too big to handle.

Actually I would like to see 'superpowers' being gained from these cryptic Codes of Primus as well. Like Mirage's invisibility, or Skywarp's teleportation, or Blurr's superspeed, or Rotorstorm's spider sense, or Skyfall's I-can-transform-into-anything-power... would give a plausible explanation for their uniqueness if they were created with codes spliced from the hidden stuff in the Vector computers.

Springer85
2010-12-30, 12:51 PM
Actually I would like to see 'superpowers' being gained from these cryptic Codes of Primus as well. Like Mirage's invisibility, or Skywarp's teleportation, or Blurr's superspeed, or Rotorstorm's spider sense, or Skyfall's I-can-transform-into-anything-power... would give a plausible explanation for their uniqueness if they were created with codes spliced from the hidden stuff in the Vector computers.

I would love to see something like that too. :)

Aero Blade
2010-12-30, 04:12 PM
Agreed with the above. If those abilities were made via technology that was installed on them, we'd easily have an army of drone bots with Starscream's null rays, Mirage's invisibility, Soundwave's telepathy, and Skywarp's teleporting. There probably wouldn't be much left of Cybertron once the war was over.

Vector Sigma I could see as the main repository for the the transformers master-code, which it encrypts key pieces onto certain sparks that would be most suited to it. This would be why some mechs get spectacular abilities, while most others are just relatively standard transformers.

This also means whatever mechs are guarding and protecting the temples are also likely to be protecting Vector Sigma. With Megs on a tirade to remove religion, I could see him attacking the religious centers to drive away extra troops in a bid to try taking over Vector Sigma with the defense compliment down. If he could gain control of the master spark computer, he could potentially try using it to produce an army of loyal super-power troops for his purposes.

Clogs
2010-12-30, 05:27 PM
If he could gain control of the master spark computer, he could potentially try using it to produce an army of loyal super-power troops for his purposes.

With potentially horrible results - since Vector Sigma would be used to encode into any soldier rather than the best suited ones. Although, given, Megs might just serendipitiously get the combination of Spark and code right.

However, the resulting failures (mutants?) might just have what it takes to survive in a radioactive wasteland if driven or abandoned there by Megatron. And they would not be loyal Decepticons or have Autobot inclinations.

Warcry
2010-12-30, 06:49 PM
I think this is an absolutely terrible idea, to be honest. Almost all of the special abilities you're talking about are things that are explicitly based on technology and equipment already. Mirage can turn invisible because he has an electro-disruptor gun. Starscream (and Whirl, and Marissa Fairborne...) have null ray guns. Rumble can cause earthquakes because his arms transform into piledrivers. Trailbreaker can create forcefields because he's got a projector bolted onto the back of his head. Hound has a hologram gun, etc, etc...

Transformers are robots. They're technology incarnate. Why in the world would we ignore existing, perfectly rational technological explanations for mundane technological phenomena in favour of "it's magic"?

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense at all to me. You're talking about ignoring one of the few things that makes Transformers stand out from the crowd, and replacing it with a generic fantasy handwave.

Brave Maximus
2010-12-30, 07:15 PM
I agree with Warcry on this one...

I can see accessing Vector Sigma for things like Triple/Sixchangers, Combiners, Pretender and Master technologies....
Taking away, or even starting off character without their signature special abilities in favour of giving them "mystically" seems a bit much.
Even the church would be all for individual TF's, to fulfill roles and not just a series of stamped out drones....

One exception though, to this, that I may suggest:

What about the Decepticons ability to fly, while Autobots can't?
Certianly I can see this as a reasonable excuse for this massive division.

(Just a quick one. I don't want to sound like a mod or anything... Just... when you're the boss at work, boss of an LS, etc... I think it's just my writing style now... sorry >< I just wanted to put my 2 cents in...)

Aero Blade
2010-12-30, 07:34 PM
I'm not intending to pitch it as "mystical" but its clear we have guys who have abilities that others do not. If there wasn't some sort of reason why they all have different abilities, what's to preven Megatron from having taken the best pieces off of his troops and installing it onto himself? Clearly there is some pieces of tech that work for some but not for others. Whether it be something they were built with or imbuned with, it's not something that can easily be replicated, and can't be attributed to technology alone.

Blackjack
2010-12-30, 07:52 PM
I'll admit it does take things a bit apart, but what I'm saying is that Vector Sigma would basically contain the key to produce those weapons or the power chips or whatever to allow guys like Mirage to disappear. Something like an explanation why we have ordinary guys like Jazz and Prowl, while people like Shrapnel and Soundwave are able to control electricity and read minds respectively.

It's always been something of a grating problem to me, TBH. If the Autobots have access to invisibility guns, hologram guns, smokescreens, forcefield generators, magnetic powers etc, why don't all these powers be installed in one Autobot? He would literally be able to quash the entire Decepticon army, as well as vice versa. Like in Heavy Metal War, only that's the other way around and Megatron didn't kill Prime outright.

Maybe Vector Sigma has the software/the blueprints for these kind of the hardware required for the wackier superpowers (say, Skywarp's teleportation or Soundwave's mind reading abilities) while we leave more mundane stuff like Rumble's pildedrivers alone.

Just a thought, though.

Warcry
2010-12-30, 08:26 PM
If there wasn't some sort of reason why they all have different abilities, what's to preven Megatron from having taken the best pieces off of his troops and installing it onto himself?
He did. (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Heavy_Metal_War) I don't think this would be a serious threat in any universe that puts thought into things like that, though. Without getting into how silly the cartoon episode actually was, the biggest problem with trying to do that is that you'd run out of energy very, very quickly. I don't think it would be possible for a normal-sized Transformer to effectively use more than one or two special abilities at once. Citybots and the like could, and actually do: Metroplex and Trypticon each have quite a few special weapons but they've got the size (and more importantly, the power supply) to use them.

Clearly there is some pieces of tech that work for some but not for others. Whether it be something they were built with or imbuned with, it's not something that can easily be replicated, and can't be attributed to technology alone.
Of course it can. They're machines. Everything about them is technological.

It's always been something of a grating problem to me, TBH. If the Autobots have access to invisibility guns, hologram guns, smokescreens, forcefield generators, magnetic powers etc, why don't all these powers be installed in one Autobot? He would literally be able to quash the entire Decepticon army, as well as vice versa. Like in Heavy Metal War, only that's the other way around and Megatron didn't kill Prime outright.
Why doesn't every soldier in a real-life army fly around in an F-22 or drive an M1 Abrams tank? Different troops have different roles, and they've got the equipment they need to carry out those roles. In a perfect world everyone would have electrodisruptors to become invisible/project holograms, or fusion cannons to blow their enemies away in one hit, or sensors that are sensitive enough to read electrical impulses from a brain. But it takes time, money, raw materials and energy to produce any of those things -- and if you're spending resources on that you're not making the medical scanners, fuel sensors or terrain-tracking computers that you need for your support units.

Since virtually every Transformer has one special ability or weapon, I don't think it's a big deal. There were probably dozens or hundreds or people with that power at some point, but they all died during the war and the facilities for building more of them were almost certainly destroyed too.

Brave Maximus
2010-12-30, 09:14 PM
Of course it can. They're machines. Everything about them is technological.


I don't know... we may all be able to agree that the spark is a bit mystical and non-mechanical in nature....

Aero Blade
2010-12-30, 09:25 PM
He did. (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Heavy_Metal_War)
He didn't. The machine did it for him, and it was temporary. He's not still running around with those powers. He still had to have the original bots to begin with.

But it takes time, money, raw materials and energy to produce any of those things

It takes something else, though, the skill and knowledge of how to use such items or techniques. Everyone can be taught the knowledge, but not everyone can use the objects with the kind of effectiveness that everyone else can. Those in the army aren't just thrown into their roles because they need someone there, but because they've also shown at least a basic competency in what they do. 5 soldiers can shoot a gun, but one of them is an absurdly good marksman, so you pull him out, give him a riffle, and make him a sniper. You can take a desk-working tactician and eventually teach him to weild the gun with quite a bit of work, but that doesn't mean he'll ever beat the sniper at target practice.

In humans it would probably be the breeding, something in the dna that has given you an inclination to be able to do something else better than someone else merely because you were born with the trait or skill. In transformers, it may be that little bit of coding, that little change Vector Sigma made to that particular bot to make it different from someone else. This is also why they're brought online with the tech that they do, because they're the ones most apt to be able to use that stuff skillfully. Yes, it is technology, it could be copied and given to soemone else, but that doesn't mean that the new bot will be any better at it than the one who had it originally. The one is who they're meant to be because that is just how they were made.

In regards to the above plot, my meantion was meant to just be an idea, that Megatron might try it because he thinks it, not because it is. Control of Vector Sigma, regardless of unsual properties or no, is still a major accomplishment and advantage. If he controls the source of new bots, that means no reinforcements for Autobots, or any other rebell groups that might defy him.

I don't know... we may all be able to agree that the spark is a bit mystical and non-mechanical in nature....
:up: :up:
Agreed. Sparks are clearly a very important part of transformers, and if there were any special traits or inclinations like I've meantioned above, it'd be in the sparks, not the tech. Bludgeon and his force-like metallicato powers come to mind, which he and a rare few others get through long, pacient training and a bit of natural inclination, not a particular set of circuitry build into them.

Clogs
2010-12-30, 10:41 PM
(I'm sorry if I sounded like I support V.S. handing out anything 'mystical' - just enabling/supplying some specialised programming, perhaps activating some perfect CNA sequence that happens only every so often (hence you can get mechs with similar if not identical powers, or even some in which the activation fails and remains dormant).

That is not to say that specific design, such as Mirage's, isn't going to be the usual method of creating abilities. Where there's the shranix or other means available, such as the need for specialism.

And I just wanted to suggest a possible explanation for survivors of the coming chaos...)

Aero Blade
2010-12-30, 11:14 PM
Agreed again. Not aiming at it to be mystical, just not easily duplicatable. Something that can't be fully understood or done by the small transformer processor, but something easily managed by the giant supercomputer that is Vector Sigma.

Warcry
2010-12-31, 01:22 AM
I don't know... we may all be able to agree that the spark is a bit mystical and non-mechanical in nature....
Be that as it may, sparks have about as much place in a discussion of anatomy as souls do in a biology textbook. They're completely different things.

He didn't.
:eyebrow:

He took the equipment that gave the other Decepticons those powers and plugged them into himself. He had full access to all of the powers at once while his troops were powerless (well, without special abilities anyway). And since they got their powers back later, he obviously gave the chips back. If that isn't the precise definition of "Megatron [taking] the best pieces off of his troops and installing it onto himself" I don't know what is.

It takes something else, though, the skill and knowledge of how to use such items or techniques. Everyone can be taught the knowledge, but not everyone can use the objects with the kind of effectiveness that everyone else can. Those in the army aren't just thrown into their roles because they need someone there, but because they've also shown at least a basic competency in what they do. 5 soldiers can shoot a gun, but one of them is an absurdly good marksman, so you pull him out, give him a riffle, and make him a sniper. You can take a desk-working tactician and eventually teach him to weild the gun with quite a bit of work, but that doesn't mean he'll ever beat the sniper at target practice.
He will if you give him the right parts and upgrades (http://tfwiki.net/wiki/All_Hail_Megatron_issue_15#.22Lost_.26_Found.22). If a Transformer doesn't have the physical capacity to do something they can be upgraded so they do. And if they don't have the knowledge to do it we've seen information transferred directly into a Transformer's brain before.

Whether it's necessary, cost-effective or even possible with the resources available is an entirely different question (and I'd guess the answer is usually a resounding 'no'). E.g., Mirage being who he is his electrodisruptor probably cost him more than the average robot would earn in their lifetime, much like Iron Man and his suit.

We could ignore the heaps of perfectly-rational explanations that we already have in favour of a gigantic metaphysical handwave, but why? It doesn't add anything new, the problem you're trying to address is already explained and it would make all of the scientific plotlines we've talked about impossible.

Agreed. Sparks are clearly a very important part of transformers, and if there were any special traits or inclinations like I've meantioned above, it'd be in the sparks, not the tech.
Special abilities were already explained technologically in the characters' bios. In most cases, over twenty years ago now.

Bludgeon and his force-like metallicato powers come to mind, which he and a rare few others get through long, pacient training and a bit of natural inclination, not a particular set of circuitry build into them.
Other than one display mild telekinesis, Bludgeon has shown absolutely zero "force-like powers" in anything official. He can generate electricity as a weapon and some versions have a stealth field, but he's basically a samurai. And his abilities are almost all explained technologically in his various bios.

As much as I like what Heinrad has done with the guy, it has about as much basis in canon as Gigatron being in G1 does.

Agreed again. Not aiming at it to be mystical, just not easily duplicatable. Something that can't be fully understood or done by the small transformer processor, but something easily managed by the giant supercomputer that is Vector Sigma.
How does "something imparted by the giant disco ball that our pitiful minds can't comprehend" not translate into "mystical"? Either it's technology or it's not. If it's technology then it can be pulled apart, studied and replicated given enough time and effort. If it can't be, then it's magic. There's really no middle ground between the two.

Aero Blade
2010-12-31, 02:42 AM
1.) You're telling me a tiny chip is entirely responsible for major abilities like teleporting and null rays? Why does screamer even need the whole weapon, he could blast them out his eyes :| :nonono: G1 has way too many plotholes and loopholes, ones big enough for Unicron to fall through

2.) I'm reminded of Prowl from Animated, who's had similar training and his throwing around force-like powers, and he's cannon
Edit/add: I recall also a comic where Blugeon used his powers to pull his sword to him, I can probably dig it up somewhere if I figure out where I put it. So he does have 'force-like' telekenetic powers

3.) We won't be spending all that time on Cybertron, so we could probably just shelve most of the above and sum it up that Vector Sigma make sparks and builds their first body.

4.) Wasn't this a Religion thread? What place does anatomy have in it? We need a separate thread for this ;)

Brave Maximus
2010-12-31, 03:29 AM
Be that as it may, sparks have about as much place in a discussion of anatomy as souls do in a biology textbook. They're completely different things.

And... this is just me being me and throwing monkey wrenches into things :D

Where as a human soul has nothing definable or even identifiable (except the concept that we all emmit an electric field that can be measured and quantified, through things like Alpha, Beta and Gamma waves preasent in humans while alive but immediatly cease once death happens, even though we have a mild electric charge that remains within the body for weeks and even months) - the Spark, in and of itself is completely tangent.

Transformers have a Spark Chamber (or laser core or what ever we want to call it this week) - they can actually pull out and see their soul (or at the very least, the souls of others). It is right there.

In the context of this conversation: Religion would be a lot easier for Transformers. They have no doubt that they have a soul. They have no doubt where they come from and can even glimpse the Allspark through Vector Computers and the Oracle (and I would assume through other, less tangable methods, like meditation). They know that they have a creator, not just of their spark, but of their design and race. They know that there really is a plan and a purpose. They also know that there really is a Satan lurking in the dark corners of the world.

But with this easy faith, comes easy manipulation. Religion is called the Opiate of the Masses for a reason. It's easy to follow the person who is talking for God, than to think for yourself. Perhaps at some points the church has abused this absolute power and devotion.

Perhaps, like so many humans, as years go by without direct contact from either God or Satan, they start to question and doubt. Not that there is a God or Satan, but weither they really care about an individual and what they do with their lives. If they do something not good, and Unicron doesn't show up and eat them all - well, maybe they can do more and more. And if they can do that - what else has the church been wrong about?

Then, you have Megatron nailing Protests on the door of the church, Shockwave suggesting that Cybertron isn't the center of the universe, Energon Cubes dropping on Jetfires head, and Perceptor taking an Energon Bath before shout Eureka!!!


I think I'm done for now... maybe.

Warcry
2010-12-31, 05:32 AM
1.) You're telling me a tiny chip is entirely responsible for major abilities like teleporting and null rays? Why does screamer even need the whole weapon, he could blast them out his eyes :| :nonono: G1 has way too many plotholes and loopholes, ones big enough for Unicron to fall through
It's the cartoon. I never said it was going to make sense. Just imagine what Megatron would have looked like if the plot had made more sense. ;)

2.) I'm reminded of Prowl from Animated, who's had similar training and his throwing around force-like powers, and he's cannon
Edit/add: I recall also a comic where Blugeon used his powers to pull his sword to him, I can probably dig it up somewhere if I figure out where I put it. So he does have 'force-like' telekenetic powers
Like I said, that only happened once. None of his other appearances had even a hint of the supernatural. Starscream's probably the closest we can get to supernatural, looking at G1. Animated's a different story obviously, and there's probably a different conversation entirely to be had about how much of that we'd like to include, if any.

3.) We won't be spending all that time on Cybertron, so we could probably just shelve most of the above and sum it up that Vector Sigma make sparks and builds their first body.
Honestly I doubt it'll come up at all, and we probably won't need to say anything. I just like debating things like this, is all.

4.) Wasn't this a Religion thread? What place does anatomy have in it? We need a separate thread for this ;)
Probably yes.

In the context of this conversation: Religion would be a lot easier for Transformers.
The thing is, though...it doesn't seem like we want that. A lot of what we've been talking about would call for atheism to be reasonable and widespread, and it's hardly reasonable not to believe in god when you can flip open your chest panel and see your soul. Official sources swing back and forth on whether sparks are physical or ephemeral from series to series and even episode to episode depending on what best fits the plot, and so far I'm thinking that non-physical sparks fit the plot we've been discussing a lot better. Although like a lot of things, really it'll probably never come up.

Brave Maximus
2010-12-31, 03:00 PM
The thing is, though...it doesn't seem like we want that. A lot of what we've been talking about would call for atheism to be reasonable and widespread, and it's hardly reasonable not to believe in god when you can flip open your chest panel and see your soul. Official sources swing back and forth on whether sparks are physical or ephemeral from series to series and even episode to episode depending on what best fits the plot, and so far I'm thinking that non-physical sparks fit the plot we've been discussing a lot better. Although like a lot of things, really it'll probably never come up.

Just because you believe in God (because you can see your spark) doesn't mean you are in any way religious or follow the church. How many Catholics use condoms? Or... you know... all the other things they''re not allowed to do.

I think the idea of the Church falling by the wayside to a more "enlightened" age (Cause... you know, mass war and destruction is more enlightened).

I was starting to run on at the mouth.... so I deleted it.
Mostly because I'm agreeing with you in a very long winded fashion (other than the fact that I've always thought a spark chamber and visible spark are very cool)

But just to have things clear in my head:

We have a church that controls the Vector Computers and the Oracle and crap like that.

We have another group who is doing research that the church considers heretical.

We have a population that couldn't care less one way or the other, until they get dragged into a war that will leave the vast majority of them dead.

That about the long and short of it?

I know this is a faith/religion thread, but let me ask:

What about government: Are the Primes choosen by the church, elected by the people or...?

I like the idea of Megs actually getting elected by his peers to lead the movement because of his charisma - and the idea of a Gladiator leading a group of scientists is pretty damn cool :D