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Brave Maximus
2011-02-05, 05:46 AM
OK, I have an idea of what I want to do with him once we get to earth.
But, while on cybertron, I'm actually not that sure.
Does anyone need/want him for anything that I can interact with?

Anyway I can help or hinder a character at this point in time? :D

I just need to finish off some profiles to get them clear in my head at this point in time and should be good to post tomorrow if anyone needs me somewhere...

Blackjack
2011-02-05, 06:18 AM
Obsidian, maybe?

He might need someone to 'confirm' that the Golden Age is dying and suff... And to hear it from someone like Alpha Trion might drive him off the edge for good... :)

Brave Maximus
2011-02-05, 07:03 AM
Sounds like a plan...
Give me an idea of what you'd liked dropped in the conversation though, and I'll work it in :D

Blackjack
2011-02-05, 07:09 AM
Not really sure, but I think maybe Obsidian just wants reassurance that everything on Cybertron is still okay and his assumptions that Cybertron is dying is baseless... and he goes to Alpha Trion for that.

But instead, Alpha Trion probably drops a hint that the society is crumbling, and some parts like Kaon are dying.

Hearing it from someone like Alpha Trion would cause Obsiaidn to seriously doubt if all he had fought for was worthwile. Thus, causing him to began considering that the Autobots might not be right to rule Cybertron...

And then cue Decepticon propaganda and/or Onslaught...

We'll probably improvise later on, though... ;)

Brave Maximus
2011-02-05, 07:13 AM
Actually sounds good. Just needed an idea of where you wanted it to go...

But AT isn't going to be subtle.
I don't think he cares enough about the individual to be subtle....

I could see it more that Obsidian would know AT wouldn't lie, nor would he sugar coat it or give a vague answer. He wants the Primus Honnest truth...
Only reason to go to AT...

Blackjack
2011-02-05, 11:19 AM
Something like that, yeah. Is Alpha Trion some kind of church figure? Obsidian is vaguely religious, so he would look for AT if so.

Where can Obsidian find Alpha Trion, mind?

Brave Maximus
2011-02-05, 11:54 AM
Too good questions

I'm not clear what the church is like in this RPG.

I actually think of AT as more of a... religous figure than part of the church. He is one of the 13.

Let me think on this and get back to you once I've slept

Warcry
2011-02-06, 06:49 AM
I actually think of AT as more of a... religous figure than part of the church. He is one of the 13.
I'm not sure if that would work. It would make it very difficult for people to deny Primus if someone is walking around, openly admitting to being one of the first group of Transformers he magicked to life. If you want him to be that old, it's probably best that no one knows about it.

Blackjack
2011-02-06, 08:21 AM
Maybe he's the Pope?

Or he claims to be one of the 13, but no one really believes him, thinking that AT's just spouting gibberish...

Brave Maximus
2011-02-06, 08:58 PM
Oh, sorry, my appologies!!!
I wasn't clear ><

I actually think AT would have nothing to do with the church. I've always seen AT as someone who worked on his own, tinkering with information that (up until this point) was only avalible to a very select few.
I think the only reason he has access to it is because he is one of the 13, and, unless they started a witch hunt for him (which wouldn't end well) - the church could do very little to stop him. Not because of physical power (they've never actually mentioned AT's power level, abilities, physical strengths, etc... I always considered him on-par, if different, with Vector Prime - but then again... I cannot imagine AT actually ingaging in combat, he'd rather duck out, use tricks, find ways around it).

More than that, while I don't think AT would deny it if he was outright asked, he wouldn't actively go out and tell people he was one of the 13. More to it, since he isn't part of the church, I could imagine that there have been years/decades/centuries of the church denouncing him and warning their members away from "False Profits" and the like. Not that AT's a Profit... but I think the church could quite easily make a case for him as a witch/false profit/Heritic.

For the General TF population, I would assume that AT would be nothing more than a legend/Urban Myth. For those who actually have some intel/etc - I'd love for him to have the mystique of that "Crazy old hermit who lives in the desert".


(Realizing this is turning into a long post).

From what I was reading of your idea for Obsidian - how's this for an idea. I think the Ben Kenobi concept for AT is kinda where I'd like him to be. I also think he would have a hand in finding new "heroes". People he sees with great potential and helps them along the way.

I would love to get AT involved with Orion/Optimus at some point.

But for Obsidian, maybe AT seeks him out. Tells him that he can help save a dying planet. Tells him stuff that he thinks Obsidian can handle to make a great force for good, but Obsidian can't handle it, sends him over the edge - creates the opposite of what he was going for.
Sound interesting?

Could also lead into play with other characters and AT from time to time.

Brave Maximus
2011-02-06, 09:17 PM
Sorry, double post, but the other one was long.

For the religious figure, which I think is where the confusion came from. What I had ment was something more akin to a biblical figure. Though I didn't want it to come across as I ment Jesus, Moses or others of that like.

I figure somewhere, deep in the churches basments are a few books that mention AT as one of the 13.
But, like the gospels of some of Jesus' apostles, the modern TF church has worked VERY hard to squash them and keep that information away from the TF public as a whole, because it doesn't conform with the view that they want to portray.

For those few that do get those old (Very old) scraps of data, or consperacy theorists, etc, Going to find AT could become something akin to a religious (Or anti-religious... since my view of AT is that he isn't exactly a friend of the church) pilgramige. But for those he does allow to find him, it would be a - faithful - experience....

Does that make more sense?

I can't imagine AT dropping down into the middle of Iacon and saying "I am the creation of our lord God and here is my Proof!!!"

As I said above, I can imagine that 90% of the TF population at large doesn't know about or doesn't believe in Alpha Trion. (which is great, as he could walk through the cities, keeping away from the larger churches and no one would be the wiser).

Aero Blade
2011-02-06, 10:06 PM
Here is the inate problem with the above figuring - you want to have him as one of the thirteen, but you don't want him to be religious at all. Being one of the thirteen would make him inherently religious, as one of the first transformeres created by Primus. For someone who is one of the thirteen, there is no question of Primus's existance, he's a real being, which would put him at odds with the non-religious who say there is no Primus.

You also have made meantion of Vector Prime, which is another grey zone. The thirteen, and him as one of them, is a very American concept that was introduced to the serieses over here. In the Japanese version of the series where he was introduced, Vector Prime was just a wise old mech with some unique abilities.

I hadn't said anything before now, but I'm not really fond myself of using Alpha Trion as one of the thirteen, for the above continuity confusion, and also because it makes a lot of implications towards him being an empowered demi-god like being, which is best to avoid with characters. While you're free to remake the characters for the new rp, I think that might be drifting into a zone you want to avoid.

If you don't want him to be religious, easiest way is to make him a very old, very wise mech, like the Japanese version of Vector Prime. He won't be any less cool without having a spiffy title ;)

Brave Maximus
2011-02-06, 10:51 PM
For me, there is a very big difference between Religion and Faith.

Just because he KNOWS Primus exists, does not mean he's part of the church.
For him, it's quite the opposite. He see's Primus in everything... why the heck should bots have to go to a building and do things as some other bot tells them to.

As for the Over-powered Demi-god - I deffinatly have concerns with that. I like big, tough characters. I don't want a character that can wade into the battle field throwing thunderbolts and fireballs and smashing 5 mechs with one swing of his mace!

Even in Energon - Vector Prime wasn't that powerful, He got his ass handed to him a few times.
For me though, and I guess this is as good a place to explain as any: I never thought of AT as a fighter... at all. He's a scientist, first and foremost. (Yes, Science and Faith can co-exist...). For me, the way I will play AT, no matter what, is that if he has to fight, it's because he's exausted every other possibility.
He's not a slouch mind you - but he's not going to be on the Levels of The Fallen (whom I always thought he got his massive power upgrade came from Uni anyway). For powers/power levels. I figured, physically, he'd be on par, maybe even a bit weaker than the average TF. Maybe on par with a Seeker/autobot car. The only thing (and I was going to talk about this with staff - I'm just behind on writing) - would be maybe he had 1 or 2 "powers" - again, actually quite mild compared to what some characters had (no connecting to black holes or Teleportation or Holograms or...).

Is there potential for abuse of a "13" charater, Of course!! Without any control and Carte Blanche - I could create a Cybertronian empire (Ok... so yes, Liege Maximo is a monster... but) - but... that wouldn't be in character with any Alpha Trion in any continuity. Even when he was Evil, it wasn't how he operated on.

I'm glad I started this before posting, so we can get clear on both sides ^^


Edit: For me, the 13 thing is more back story than relivant current plot point or anything that really needs to be brought up. It's not so much the spiffy title - though yes, I like it.
That's like saying "you can play Optimus Prime as just another leader, he doesn't need the spiffy title". It's part of the motivation. Why he does things, his certianty, his reason behind his actions.
Being there at the beginning of the Transformers race, having a personal connection (not a data flow, but knowing where you come from connection) with your god, knowing that you have a Duty - these are very powerful reasons for character motivation. Take them away, and he really is just another bot.

Aero Blade
2011-02-06, 11:55 PM
Alright, first thing's first...

Even in Energon - Vector Prime wasn't that powerful, He got his ass handed to him a few times.
A major episode plot arc was him rediscovering his powers, which he had allowed to fall to the wayside and he had almost lost to disuse. Being able to manipulate time is far from a gimick, and can be just as potent as that 5-mech destroying fireball. I would never dream of using a time-manipulating mech in any board's rpg due to how powerful it makes a character. No, Vector was not overpowered in the series, but if he had started off that way we wouldn't have had a plot of chasing down Megatron. He's still hardly frail. Let's also not forget Megatron was sporting armor made from Unicron, making him an empowered villain...

For me, the 13 thing is more back story than relivant current plot point or anything that really needs to be brought up.
If it won't be used or meantioned in plot, why is it being discussed? :eyebrow:

That's like saying "you can play Optimus Prime as just another leader, he doesn't need the spiffy title"... Take them away, and he really is just another bot.
I seem to recall them doing just that in Animated, and it turned out very well. No matrix, and Prime being a common place title, yet he's still a wonderous inspiring character. It's not in the title, it's in how the character is played, the personality and the background to them and in how they're presented. That's the job of the rper.

It's part of the motivation. Why he does things, his certianty, his reason behind his actions. Being there at the beginning of the Transformers race, having a personal connection (not a data flow, but knowing where you come from connection) with your god, knowing that you have a Duty - these are very powerful reasons for character motivation.
All of these things are personality things, not tied specificly to a title. All of the above he can get just from being a very old mech, or someone who has studied and seen many things to aquire this knowledge (You meantioned something of him being like a scientist?) There are many ways he could aquire this knowledge, and it doesn't require a direct tie to Primus to do it. Anyone who's heard of Christianity knows that their followers believe they were created by God, whether they've even seen a bible in their entire life or not - I'm sure the knowledge that Primus created the Transformers is equally commonplace. You don't need the big guy on speed dial to get that secret insight, you believe or you don't, even in overwelming evidence one way or another sometimes.



I believe the biggest question I have about this is why he needs to be one of the thirteen. That title I consider to be quite a responsibility for a character. How will this character become completely unplayable because we don't add the thirteen title to him?

Yes, add.

Take them away, and he really is just another bot.
He didn't have it to begin with. Alpha Trion was a powerful figure when he was just the old guy, this is a new wrinkle you want to add to him. If there is a good reason for it, I can warm up to it.


I would like to make it clear that I am not in protest to the thirteen concept, and have in fact used it myself with a fancharacter for fics. I would still never dream of using that character here on the board. Powerful, debatable associations like that are best left for private play, in my opinion.

Brave Maximus
2011-02-07, 12:31 AM
I will say this...
I'm a little concerned...

But:

As other players have been able to choose their versions of their character, or a new interpretation of them...

I wanted to play Alpha Trion. My take on him yes. But as the mythos had been built of him. The idea of a character, that has been around a long time. Not just some old bot with the name slapped on him.

There are certian things, distilled down to the essence, that have made the character who and what they are in the collective conciousness of the fandom.

Now, I'm not sure what to think...
I'm just being honnest, and think there needs to be more dialogue.

Aero Blade
2011-02-07, 01:18 AM
Brave and I have chatted on our own and he's settled my concerns. Prosecution withdraws all charges and settles out of court. Pay the jury and send them home. ;)

Brave Maximus
2011-02-07, 01:26 AM
Everything can be solved with a simple conversation ^^
Thanks Aero

Blackjack
2011-02-07, 09:18 AM
So everything is cool and settled? :)

AT and Obsidian can meet now?

Aero Blade
2011-02-07, 03:21 PM
Everything is settled with me to be specific. The staff still need a formal profile from Brave for what he wants to do with his characters, AT included, which he's told me he's working on. Once it clears them the two of you will be good to go.