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zigzagger
2011-08-27, 06:25 AM
An uncharacteristically early preview for Transformers #25 has recently been posted by John Barber (http://forum.idwpublishing.com/viewtopic.php?t=10462) at the IDW forums.

Preview @ issuu.com (http://issuu.com/idwpublishing/docs/transformers_ongoing_25_preview?viewMode=magazine)

Note: there seems to be viewing issues on some people's end (mine included).

Denyer
2011-08-27, 10:28 AM
It's very, very slow for a Flash interface, so I'm guessing it's their server bandwidth that's the bottleneck and makes things seem to freeze (and possibly actually freeze, depending on how the plugin is integrated with the browser -- I'd suggest Chrome for this.)

On the comic: nothing of interest, personally. It's gone right back to snail's-pace-who-gives-a-****-how-many-pages-we-waste, by the looks of it.

StarscreamX
2011-08-27, 06:03 PM
Why do the Autobots give a damn that Jazz killed a human? Optimus Prime killed a human. Grimlock and the Dinobots killed a TON of humans. Hot Rod and Wheeljack killed a whole bunch of them too.

And yay, more Spike Witwicky and Skywatch. Thrilling

On the bright side at least it's only two weeks until we get back to the interesting story on Cybertron with the Autobots and Galvatron

Red Dave Prime
2011-08-28, 08:15 AM
I would be guessing it's because Jazz killed a human who was not attacking them (I know, very hazey in the issue it happened, but the guy had agreed to stand down) where as Dinobots, Hot rod etc. killed a load of humans attacking them in mech suits. Primes one is a little bit harder to defend though...

Bucquoy
2011-08-28, 08:34 AM
Prime killing a human? My memory fails me - was it in Escalation?

Cliffjumper
2011-08-28, 02:45 PM
Did he kill that guy in the bit nicked from the first Bay film? Or was he just injured?

I never really thought the Autobots had a solid inflexible code regarding killings - try not to kill innocents if remotely possible, try and take prisoners if it's remotely possible, but at the end of the day, they're fighting a war, not playing cops and robbers (well, apart from in most of the shit cartoons anyway, where instead they're learning to play basketball and building robot dinosaurs). They're not the Avengers or something.

Disclaimer: I didn't read the comics pages as they sound like they're by the same tools and hacks as usual; I'm not even loading IDW pages unless they contain Roberts.

Blackjack
2011-08-28, 02:57 PM
The problem with Jazz killing a human is because Mike Costa thinks the ongoing is not part of a prior established continuity, and just as he ignores the fact that Pretenders are weapons of destruction, the Combaticons are a crack assault team, Optimus isn't emo and stuff like that.

At the very least, when Furman wrote IDW any Sunstreaker copy that were killed also means a human death (or mentally dead anyway)... and the likes of Wheeljack and Hot Rod killed Sunstreaker clones as well, not just the likes of the Dinobots.

And in AHM Sideswipe totally killed Onion boy.

Why they made such a big deal that Jazz killed a human? Or that Spike killed Scrapper? It's because Costa's Optimus, Bumblebee and bitchy humans are wimps. Is why.

StarscreamX
2011-08-28, 03:28 PM
The problem with Jazz killing a human is because Mike Costa thinks the ongoing is not part of a prior established continuity, and just as he ignores the fact that Pretenders are weapons of destruction, the Combaticons are a crack assault team, Optimus isn't emo and stuff like that.

At the very least, when Furman wrote IDW any Sunstreaker copy that were killed also means a human death (or mentally dead anyway)... and the likes of Wheeljack and Hot Rod killed Sunstreaker clones as well, not just the likes of the Dinobots.

And in AHM Sideswipe totally killed Onion boy.

Why they made such a big deal that Jazz killed a human? Or that Spike killed Scrapper? It's because Costa's Optimus, Bumblebee and bitchy humans are wimps. Is why.

I can sort of understand the big deal made about Scrapper because he was wounded and surrendering and not really a threat to anyone and Spike killed him in cold blood. Arguably the sensible thing to do as it means the Constructicons can't form Devastator now but its the kind of thing the Autobots do disaprove of. It's the same sort of thing they threw Impactor in jail for, killing a defenceless enemy.

But the big deal being made about Jazz killing an armed and dangerous man who could have killed a lot of Autobots is bloody stupid.

Did he kill that guy in the bit nicked from the first Bay film? Or was he just injured?

It looked like he was dead in the issue. Prime didn't seem to care either way though, which makes the Autobot's sudden horror at the idea of killing a human in self defence pretty weird


I never really thought the Autobots had a solid inflexible code regarding killings - try not to kill innocents if remotely possible, try and take prisoners if it's remotely possible, but at the end of the day, they're fighting a war, not playing cops and robbers (well, apart from in most of the shit cartoons anyway, where instead they're learning to play basketball and building robot dinosaurs). They're not the Avengers or something.

Disclaimer: I didn't read the comics pages as they sound like they're by the same tools and hacks as usual; I'm not even loading IDW pages unless they contain Roberts.

Yeah I agree with that. The Autobots try not to kill when possible, except for the Wreckers and maybe one or two of the less peaceful Autobots like Grimlock and his Dynobots.

Damn, I could really go for a scene of Optimus Prime playing basketball right now. It would be miles better than him sitting in a cell and moping like he did for the first five issues of Costa's run

Prime killing a human? My memory fails me - was it in Escalation?

Yeah, he stood in front of a getaway vehicle being used by one of the Machination's agents and let it crash into him, killing the driver.

I would be guessing it's because Jazz killed a human who was not attacking them (I know, very hazey in the issue it happened, but the guy had agreed to stand down) where as Dinobots, Hot rod etc. killed a load of humans attacking them in mech suits. Primes one is a little bit harder to defend though...

I guess that's true but the human DID have a gun pointed right at Bumblebee and it wasn't clear whether he was going to kill him or not. His finger was still on the trigger and if Jazz hadn't acted, Bumblebee could have died.

Cliffjumper
2011-08-28, 03:50 PM
It looked like he was dead in the issue. Prime didn't seem to care either way though, which makes the Autobot's sudden horror at the idea of killing a human in self defence pretty weird

Agreed - I think it was left purposefully ambiguous in the issue as to whether the mook is dead or just hugely injured, but killing the guy is certainly an eventuality Prime is prepared for - even for a Transformers brain, it would be nigh-on impossible to cause a car accident like that and guarantee the health of whoever's driving.

Yeah I agree with that. The Autobots try not to kill when possible, except for the Wreckers and maybe one or two of the less peaceful Autobots like Grimlock and his Dynobots.

I'd say even the Wreckers and Dinos have some sort of belief against killing unless necessary - it's just that both groups are generally deployed in the sort of situation where it is necessary.

For what's it's worth, I always thought Impactor's actions were totally correct for the situation he's in, but I can see why an example was made of him by high command having to officially frown on them; I also subscribe to the theory that Prowl effectively orders Impactor to execute Squadron X and Impactor has a fair idea of the price he'll pay.

I somehow suspect this whole Jazz thing is nowhere near as skillfully written, however.

StarscreamX
2011-08-28, 05:37 PM
Agreed - I think it was left purposefully ambiguous in the issue as to whether the mook is dead or just hugely injured, but killing the guy is certainly an eventuality Prime is prepared for - even for a Transformers brain, it would be nigh-on impossible to cause a car accident like that and guarantee the health of whoever's driving.


Agreed which makes sense in the situation. The Machination were heavily armed and had already apparently killed one Autobot and were escaping with what Prime THOUGHT was Cybertronian technology that could do untold damage to the world.


I'd say even the Wreckers and Dinos have some sort of belief against killing unless necessary - it's just that both groups are generally deployed in the sort of situation where it is necessary.

Some of the Wreckers probably..Springer, Top Spin and Kup probably don't like to kill unless they have to. Especially Top Spin as he only joined the Wrecker's to watch out for Twin Twist. From what we've seen of Whirl it seems like he is probably a little eager to kill, given his treatment of prisoners back when he was a cop. And Springer thought he was too unstable to be a Wrecker in the 'Bullets' story and Guzzle was pretty gleeful when he got his hands on those cerebro-centric bullets

The Dinobots I'm not so sure about. They were pretty brutal in those flashbacks to Cybertron in Maximum Dinobots but I think Swoop and maybe Sludge and Slag are probably less brutal than Grimlock or Snarl


For what's it's worth, I always thought Impactor's actions were totally correct for the situation he's in, but I can see why an example was made of him by high command having to officially frown on them; I also subscribe to the theory that Prowl effectively orders Impactor to execute Squadron X and Impactor has a fair idea of the price he'll pay.


Impactor was really in a total no-win situation. Either he could kill prisoners in handcuffs or let them go free, knowing for a fact that they would slaughter countless innocents.

I think Prowl definitely knew exactly what Impactor would do in that situation. It fits with his manipulative personality to deliberately be an officious prick to Impactor, KNOWING that he would rebel and disobey his orders.

I somehow suspect this whole Jazz thing is nowhere near as skillfully written, however

I think your suspicions are going to turn out to be correct :(

The one bright spot is that Costa seems to be writing Prowl more like Roche and Roberts wrote him. So maybe one good thing will come out of the Skywatch story

I'm still hoping that Ben Simpson jackass is a Decepticon facsimile their using to turn the public against the Autobots, but I have my doubts that Costa would do something like that. Though Ore 13 got a mention back in Revenge of the Decepticons so that suggests he's read at least some of Furman's stuff

Fergurg
2011-08-28, 08:18 PM
Something else to remember about Jazz's actions: he was ordered by Optimus Prime to not get involved. So a human died at his hands as a direct result of him violating orders.

As for Spike killing Scrapper, it may be justified, but once the enemy surrenders, their life is supposed to be safe. Scrapper was killed after he surrendered and agreed to submit to being locked in auto mode, so it's not like he was even threatening to escape at that point. Read that last page: even Spike felt he did something evil.

StarscreamX
2011-08-28, 10:13 PM
Something else to remember about Jazz's actions: he was ordered by Optimus Prime to not get involved. So a human died at his hands as a direct result of him violating orders.

That's true. But given how Autobots have treated humans in the past, those orders and the reaction to Jazz not obeying them don't make much sense :(


As for Spike killing Scrapper, it may be justified, but once the enemy surrenders, their life is supposed to be safe. Scrapper was killed after he surrendered and agreed to submit to being locked in auto mode, so it's not like he was even threatening to escape at that point. Read that last page: even Spike felt he did something evil.

Agreed I can understand why Optimus is pissed about what Spike did. Scrapper was defenceless and Spike had the power to lock him up where he couldn't do any harm. I can see why the Autobots would be angry with Spike about what he did

Blackjack
2011-08-29, 03:12 AM
That's true. But given how Autobots have treated humans in the past, those orders and the reaction to Jazz not obeying them don't make much sense :(

Agreed.

The beat cop was aiming a weapon that could kill about ten or so Autobots. Not to mention probably causing other damages as well. Orders or no, it made sense that Jazz would want to kill the human, if only to protect his pals.

inflatable dalek
2011-08-29, 07:03 AM
The beat cop was aiming a weapon that could kill about ten or so Autobots. Not to mention probably causing other damages as well. Orders or no, it made sense that Jazz would want to kill the human, if only to protect his pals.


Not having read the issue in question this is just speculative on my part: If the humans (somehow) have hand-held weapons that can kill ten Transformers at a time not pissing them off by killing their troops when you don't have too would be a high priority. Jazz could have gotten a lot of his colleges killed as a result. Mind, it doesn't sound like the choice is being presented like that.


On a similar note with Impactor, considering the generally poor regard the Transformers are held in by the rest of the Galaxy letting Squadron X go so as not to piss the Pova People off needlessly was likely a sacrifice worth making (though it's a nice touch of ambiguity that we never find out what they'd actually be capable of doing in retaliation to Impactor's acts). Equally, even if Prowl was deliberately planting a seed, there's no way Impactor could get less than the maximum punishment. In an army you need your troops, even the ones who are part of fairly autonomous units, to obey all orders instantly. The higher ups will almost always have access to more information than the grunts and can't have them deciding they know best. Especially when it comes to "Don't kill people" orders.

Blackjack
2011-08-29, 08:57 AM
Not having read the issue in question this is just speculative on my part: If the humans (somehow) have hand-held weapons that can kill ten Transformers at a time not pissing them off by killing their troops when you don't have too would be a high priority. Jazz could have gotten a lot of his colleges killed as a result. Mind, it doesn't sound like the choice is being presented like that.

Megatron dumps a bunch of wounded Autobots who can't fight back within reach of the beat cop with a handheld Megatron gun which blows stuff up and apparently can kill Autobots (Bumblebee was shot through the stomach and he was only crippled for, like, six issues.

Bumblebee tries to talk beat cop down through some Costa's multi-panel conversations. Jazz pops up and cooks the guy with his flamethrower.

Everybody is shocked.

Cliffjumper
2011-08-29, 10:27 AM
Not having read the issue in question this is just speculative on my part: If the humans (somehow) have hand-held weapons that can kill ten Transformers at a time not pissing them off by killing their troops when you don't have too would be a high priority. Jazz could have gotten a lot of his colleges killed as a result. Mind, it doesn't sound like the choice is being presented like that.

See above; context is king. We're talking a one-off situation rather than the US Army being equipped with personal anti-Transformer weaponry.

On a similar note with Impactor, considering the generally poor regard the Transformers are held in by the rest of the Galaxy letting Squadron X go so as not to piss the Pova People off needlessly was likely a sacrifice worth making (though it's a nice touch of ambiguity that we never find out what they'd actually be capable of doing in retaliation to Impactor's acts).

The Povians would already be pissed off to some extent that there's a Transformers scrap happening on their planet; the damage is already done. The Povians won't co-operate with prisoners being held until a prison ship arrives; however, as they didn't bother intervening in the huge firefight that could well have had casualties. It could be diplomacy; US military units generally avoid chasing terrorists to the UK and having pitched gun-battles in Birmingham; if they did, it would be politically awkward. However, if they did it would also be pretty difficult to see what British government would do about it beyond asking them not to and a few meaningless slaps on the wrist. To further extent the analogy, if this theoretical US unit captured the terrorists alive, the UK authorities could make things tricky and embarrassing when it came to extraction/collection

Plus how much of what Prowl says about the Povians is him nudging Impactor towards the result they both want? Taking anything IDW Prowl says at face value is pure folly, IMO.

Of course, the onion in the ointment is that the Wreckers must have got to and back off Pova somehow, and surely could cram Squadron X in whatever transport, especially if they pull their arms and legs off.

Equally, even if Prowl was deliberately planting a seed, there's no way Impactor could get less than the maximum punishment. In an army you need your troops, even the ones who are part of fairly autonomous units, to obey all orders instantly. The higher ups will almost always have access to more information than the grunts and can't have them deciding they know best. Especially when it comes to "Don't kill people" orders.

Well, obviously. Impactor's being set up to do Prowl's dirty work, and almost certainly knows it. He [Impactor] arguably knows that stopping Squadron X then and there is more important than his own personal freedom. Prowl knows Impactor and how he's going to react.

StarscreamX
2011-08-29, 03:12 PM
Judging from his story in All Hail Megatron Prowl seems to know how to predict how EVERYONE will react.

He's like the Autobot version of Shockwave :sweatdrop

Auntie Slag
2011-08-29, 09:59 PM
Judging from his story in All Hail Megatron Prowl seems to know how to predict how EVERYONE will react.

Oh its not that big a deal. Megatron was doing this in Simon Furman's first transformers story 'The Enemy Within'; predicting Brawn's reactions to suit Megatron's own ends for dealing with Starscream.

I quite like the fact that Prowl's smarts makes him as vicious as any Wrecker whilst keeping his hands clean. Its delicious really. That crafty little squirrel.

Cunning Ravage
2011-08-30, 02:41 AM
He's like the Autobot version of Shockwave :sweatdrop

He always sort of was, both share the same function and both are 'logic for everything!' types. It's just it's never been explored with Prowl.

StarscreamX
2011-08-30, 01:56 PM
Oh its not that big a deal. Megatron was doing this in Simon Furman's first transformers story 'The Enemy Within'; predicting Brawn's reactions to suit Megatron's own ends for dealing with Starscream.


Easy to forget that Megatron was actually pretty smart, back before he started beating his own troops senseless and blowing himself up on space bridges

I've always found it oddly hillarious that in the Marvel and Marvel UK stuff it's Galvatron who's the (Fairly) sane, rational leader who get's pissed off by Megatron's raging insanity. It's like the cartoon on opposite day.


I quite like the fact that Prowl's smarts makes him as vicious as any Wrecker whilst keeping his hands clean. Its delicious really. That crafty little squirrel.

Yeah I like how he seems able to predict how the more "Maverick" Autobots like Springer or Impactor will react and manipulate them to get what he wants

Then of course there's how he conveniently made sure Kup had a "Heroic Sacrifice", right about the time Optimus and the other Autobots found out that Prowl had made alterations to his body in Infestation. I get the feeling Prowl was counting on Kup not surviving taking out Britt and the Undermind so there wouldn't be any uncomfortable questions asked about just WHAT he did to the poor old Autobot on Kimia :eek:

Ulcrain
2011-09-01, 09:40 PM
Just cross your fingers and hope Skywatch get's disbanded at the end of this.

Cliffjumper
2011-09-01, 10:56 PM
Didn't Winter fly it into the sun in the end?

StarscreamX
2011-09-03, 11:54 AM
Just cross your fingers and hope Skywatch get's disbanded at the end of this.

Maybe Jazz will step on Spike :p

Ulcrain
2011-09-04, 03:43 AM
Our Spike will get picked up by Hook and truned into Shockwaves science experiment

inflatable dalek
2011-09-04, 04:11 AM
Didn't Winter fly it into the sun in the end?

Nah, Skywatch is the one where Bob Peck has to stop an evil Luke Skywalker from playing the Jester in those bloody awful Flash episodes isn't it?