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View Full Version : Is Sentinel Prime the biggest arsehole in TF history?


Cliffjumper
2012-07-14, 01:21 PM
We'll ignore for the moment his various anti-human actions and take it as written that he's a big space racist. But when Optimus finally has him at his mercy he's all "I only wanted to ensure our race's survival". Ignoring that Optimus has that pretty well handled by having the Autobots relatively peacefully co-existing with humans on Earth as it is, his actions sure don't weigh up with that.

- Killing Ironhide is completely unnecessary. His whole betrayal is more dramatic and violent than it needed to be - if he was really well intentioned he probably could have requested that Optimus/NEST give him back the Pillars and then silently pegged it. He didn't even try, and then tried to kill Bumblebee even though he was plainly no threat to him.
- Similarly, it's his fault the Dreads are killed. He could have let himself get captured or pitched in on their side before all three of them were killed by Sideswipe and someone he killed himself 30 seconds later.
- He makes no attempt to stop Soundwave and company executing the captured Autobots out of spite.
- He makes no attempt to intervene when the Autobots are butchering Decepticons left, right and centre, instead settling for strutting around next to his space magnet and making himself feel big by slapping a half-dead Megatron around.
- He has zero reaction to the exiled Autobots being apparently destroyed, and possibly even a hand in the plan seeing as he was the one who ordered them to **** off.

I can't off-hand think of another character in the TF mythos who's as much of prick. Maybe Overlord in Last Stand, but he at least is batshit insane and doesn't claim he's having Action Masters slaughter each other in order to preserve the species or anything.

inflatable dalek
2012-07-14, 04:03 PM
He's arguably at least as insane as Overlord, probably as a result of the crash and/or X amount of millennia by himself. Whatever his original good intentions (from his POV) in teaming up with the Decepticons by the 21st century his logic (if you'll pardon the pun) is clearly wonky.

Amongst the other stuff he also publicly humiliates his supposed partner- and sticks his fingers in his brain- even though the Movie Decepticons generally seem to be fanatically loyal to Megatron (there's some ambiguity over Starscream thanks to inconsistent writing over the films but everyone else seems to be fully in the "All Hail Megatron!" bandwagon and they're all still following him without any visible decsent despite him clearly not being very well at all) and Sentinel probably wouldn't be able to take them all on in the likely event of them deciding not to follow him if he actually followed through and tried to take over. Or even if Megatron had actually had the brains to just ask for some help.

Did he even know about the Autobot execution? That whole thing was very ad hoc. And a very bizarre scene in general. Whatever the rights and wrongs in Optimus finishing off Sentinel and Megatron (I tend to veer between agreeing with both viewpoints, in the end I think I'd just rather have had a better send off for Megatron as much as anything) it's tonally very odd to have the hero killing his defeated enemies so soon after a scene where the Decepticons trying to do similar is presented as the ultimate shocking crossing the line EVIL that has everyone slack jawed in terror. And that's not even counting the fact the film Decepticons are shown everywhere else as preferring to kill everything rather than take prisoners anyway.

And the biggest prick is whatever Decepticon killed that dog in one of the Japanese shows. Was that Overlord as well? What a bastard.

Cliffjumper
2012-07-14, 04:41 PM
He's not alone by himself, he's in shutdown (Optimus uses the Matrix to revive him, remember) - so he's no more alive than, say, everyone in the Ark is for four million years in G1. I'd argue that he shows many signs of insanity at all - he just seems motivated by spite and only wants the Transformers who'll do as he tells them to to survive - his main problem with the Autobots seems to be that they co-operate with a lesser species instead of enslaving them.

He does taunt the captured Autobots briefly - the geography's a bit wonky, but he addresses them (off the top of my head as the Space Bridge first opens but before Dylan starts issuing military advice to Soundwave), yes. I'm not sure exactly what would wrench his attention away from it, but it is possible he's back to strutting around the top of his tower again. The scene is a very odd one (plainly they came up with the Bumblebee/Sam shot and worked backwards a bit before just giving up and filming anyway), but Sentinel Prime can either see what's happening or doesn't care enough to stop his allies from killing the prisoners by at least keeping an eye on them.

The end fight is another odd one with some good ideas - I do like how Megatron's handled in the film the more I watch it. But the actual mechanics are mad - Optimus is all over Sentinel, who runs off, gets caught and promptly slices an arm off him as easy as you like. Suddenly Optimus is on the ropes... Megatron getting the jump on Sentinel and targeting him over Optimus (a nice microcosm of every Decepticon leader ever in one shot) I can buy, but Optimus suddenly getting his shit back together with enough speed to kill Megatron in ten seconds flat?

inflatable dalek
2012-07-14, 04:58 PM
The smart move for Megatron would have really been to let them fight it out and then shoot the winner. Though he does have the brain excuse...

I'd have happily sacrificed the John Malcovich stuff (which is also a bit odd, the Bumblebee scene feels like it's in there because he insisted on meeting a Transformer before taking the part) for those final scenes to have a bit more room to breath and be more coherent.

Thunderwave
2012-07-14, 06:20 PM
And the biggest prick is whatever Decepticon killed that dog in one of the Japanese shows. Was that Overlord as well? What a bastard.

Wilder in Super God Masterforce (I risked getting lost for a day looking in TV Tropes for the reference).

And yea, Sentinel is about as big a douche nozzle as you'll find. I mean, there are plenty of asshole characters running about (Runabros and Skywarp come to mind right off), but only Sentinel is willing to risk so much on a stupid plan and in the process manage to get both sides wanting his ass dead. That takes some real talent.

Knightdramon
2012-07-14, 08:27 PM
- Killing Ironhide is completely unnecessary. His whole betrayal is more dramatic and violent than it needed to be - if he was really well intentioned he probably could have requested that Optimus/NEST give him back the Pillars and then silently pegged it. He didn't even try, and then tried to kill Bumblebee even though he was plainly no threat to him.
- Similarly, it's his fault the Dreads are killed. He could have let himself get captured or pitched in on their side before all three of them were killed by Sideswipe and someone he killed himself 30 seconds later.
- He makes no attempt to stop Soundwave and company executing the captured Autobots out of spite.
- He makes no attempt to intervene when the Autobots are butchering Decepticons left, right and centre, instead settling for strutting around next to his space magnet and making himself feel big by slapping a half-dead Megatron around.
- He has zero reaction to the exiled Autobots being apparently destroyed, and possibly even a hand in the plan seeing as he was the one who ordered them to **** off.


His point was to get the pillars and hightail it. The decepticons [Dreads] arriving after him were probably the signal that the plan was unfolding.

If he had left himself get captured, he'd have to raid Nest HQ later on [with the autobots on full alert]. And with Ironhide on his tail, I assume it couldn't be that easy to just say 'Hey I'm taking these and going to the other side, take care eh?". So he had to take him out, and Bumblebee was the next threat. If Optimus was around I assume he'd just incapacitate him like he did later on.

As for the rest, he was too occupied with his "dream" coming true and Cybertron arriving. To be fair, he only entered the fight when Optimus used Shockwave's gun and shot right next to him. If you had an army fighting at your feet against a handful of soldiers I don't think you'd enter the fight until the very last moment.

I really think that he was behind any sentiment for autobots; he was just a cybertronian wanting to save Cybertron. In his mind, at least.

The movie did portray him more as a villain than an anti-hero, to be honest, probably because the audience was already "tired" with Megatron for the third time.

Cliffjumper
2012-07-14, 09:04 PM
He still could have got the pillars with minimal butchery - making a deal to share technology with NEST being one option; there's no timetable involved beyond Sentinel's impulses. And if the Dreads were a signal he could have pitched in with them, killed the Autobot cars on the highway and had only Ironhide to face at NEST as it wouldn't have delayed him by much more than the battle that did unfold - Optimus was obviously some time away, Ratchet, Que and the Wreckers even further. It can work one way or another, but not both.

It's like he'd already planned exactly how he was going to do things - drama, killing - and ignored the other options. In several respects he flukes out - if Ironhide had been paying any sort of attention to his Big Bad Moment he might not have been killed so easily. If Sideswipe and Dino hadn't nipped out for a smoke he might have faced more opposition. If the Dreads had managed to kill Bumblebee and company the variables would have been totally different.

And to me that he doesn't give a shit about the Decepticons below (they've taking a pretty big kicking even before Optimus gets really, really irritated) further shows that he doesn't care that much about his race at all, just a dead planet. He doesn't like the Autobots because they consort with humans and he sees the Decepticons as cannon fodder to get in the way while he carries out his stupid plan, so who does that leave? Aside from the unequal alliance with Megatron (who he treats like something he trod in) he makes no attempt to talk anyone around, he just kills or threatens anyone who gets in his way.

And all that is ignoring the fact that he feels bound to this stupid deal he made with Megatron X years ago. Despite the situation having radically changed - now the Autobots have the upper hand in the war thanks to their alliance with NEST, with the general inference being they've handled everything the Decepticons have thrown at them since the arrival on Earth, including Megatron and the Fallen. Megatron's a vegetable living in a desert. So, if Sentinel's hell-bent on saving Cybertron and has some of the pillars, why not disclose everything to Optimus? The Autobots can work on regaining the other pillars, Cybertron can be brought into our solar system or at least as close as physics allow and benign exploration and repair work can be carried out with the Xanthium, NASA aid, etc.

But no, Sentinel wants to do it his way, so he keeps everything to himself, feels honour-bound to his deal with Megatron, lies to Optimus and causes the deaths of, what, twenty, thirty Transformers and countless humans in doing so.

Complete arsehole.

Summerhayes
2012-07-15, 04:38 PM
I'd actually say the Fallen was worse, in that he turned on his brothers and that just to destroy a planet with life, even though they could easily just sod off and do it to another planet. And then, after they stop him exterminating all life on Earth out of spite, he takes his anger out on the humans. At least Sentinel (however stupidly) thought he was doing something good.

Paul053
2012-07-16, 03:37 PM
I don't think Sentinel is on anybody's side. Or I don't think he wanted to be on any side. All he cares is obsessed in restoring Cybertron and he is more like help me or get out of my way. I even believe if he really succeed, he will just dump everybody on the dead earth and go with Cybertron aback to it's original track. Compare to Overlord's true purpose of making this mess, Sentinel might beat him since his felt more patriotism.

And Megatron, I still stand my initial option. He can barely stand in the third film due to his slow recovery despite he is half brain dead.

Warcry
2012-07-16, 06:39 PM
I can't off-hand think of another character in the TF mythos who's as much of prick. Maybe Overlord in Last Stand, but he at least is batshit insane and doesn't claim he's having Action Masters slaughter each other in order to preserve the species or anything.
I think Bludgeon in G2 gives him a run for his money, invading Earth and slaughtering people not because they have anything that he wants but because he figures that once his Decepticons kill enough humans Optimus Prime will be sure to show up to stop him.

Jhiaxus too. "Optimus Prime is starting to get under my skin. How do I get back at him? I know, I'll nuke a city and kill seven and a half million people. Now he'll be just as annoyed as I am!"

Bludgeon could have gotten what he wanted much easier by just challenging Prime to a duel, which Prime's heroic honour would force him to agree to. Jhaxus, meanwhile, was perfectly capable of nuking Autobase and killing every single Autobot and Decepticon save for Prime, Megatron and Starscream (and following that up by nuking the defenceless Warworld and killing those three as well). But where's the fun in that, when they can waste resources slaughtering defenceless, inconsequential humans, aimlessly dicking around until someone shows up to kill them?

Cliffjumper
2012-07-16, 08:17 PM
Bludgeon wanted to use the Matrix to bring a load of Decepticons to life in order to take over the universe and kill pretty much everything that wasn't a Decepticon. The Earth attack just got the genocide started a little bit earlier.

Jhiaxus, well, he was a bit mental by then, and again was pretty into genocide anyway. It'll depend on interpretation a bit there - was he always that much of a bastard and hiding it under a veneer of civilisation, or does the conflict with Optimus and Megatron change him?

I'd say both of those aren't quite as bad because at least they're honest about it - neither of them turn around and claim to be doing it for a nice reason once the tables get turned. That, to me, is the final seal on Sentinel's claim to being an utter prick - scrabbling around on a bridge with the top of his head missing, begging for his life by pretending he had some benevolent motivation for his actions.

Same applies to the Fallen - he wants to drain the sun and is straight-up about it; when Optimus jets into him he doesn't start going on about how he wanted to do it for the good of the universe.

Warcry
2012-07-16, 08:56 PM
Jhiaxus I'll give you. His behaviour has as much or more to do with being nuts as it does with being a jackass, and he's probably more comparable to Overlord than Sentinel.

With Bludgeon it's the hypocrisy that gets me more than anything else. His behaviour reminds me of a conservative politician who spends his public life crusading against gays and his private life having sex with other men in bathroom stalls. I suppose there's no real one "perfect" example of that, though. G2 was just the first one that came to mind.

For pretty much the entire time he was around in the comic he made a habit of talking about honour and Metallikato, codes and the Ultimate Warrior (although, yes, this is something that is exaggerated in the fandom compared to how much of it is actually in the text). But really, he was no better than Starscream. He murdered innocents for fun (or at least encouraged thugs like Fangry and Quake to do so), and he lied, betrayed and backstabbed at evey opportunity. And he was just as power-hungry -- a few years of being in charge had apparently changed him from the guy who wanted to revive Megatron and serve him into an arrogant, selfish fool who attacked him on sight.

(I realize that Another Time and Place and G2 are probably mutally exclusive, but they both follow on from US #80 so I have to assume that G2's version of Bludgeon had a pro-Megatron attitude earlier in his career too.)

I admit that we don't really know that much about Metallikato, but it seems very unlikely to me that its strict warrior code is OK with murdering those who can't fight back, or with betraying your allies and leaving them to die, or with abandoning past loyalties in the service of naked ambition. Bludgeon's a great villain, but he's a complete sack of crap who acts like he's better than everyone else when in reality he's the most unrelentingly vicious 'Con of them all.

Note that this isn't a criticism -- I love him for it.

verytired
2012-07-19, 08:25 PM
There's Straxus as well: cripples Autobot rebels and spies, then has them lobbed into the Smelting Pool. Then he uses the melted down parts to build... well, something, but whatever it is, it's going to be sick.

"Nice chair Shrapnel."
"Thanks mate, it's made from melted down prisoners, prisoners."
"Bloody hell man! I know we're evil, but... Geez"

Other good reasons for candidacy: sending Crosscuts mate to clean up his body on the space bridge. When he blows up, he orders in Shrapnel!
He turns Spanner into a bridge, which is both arseholish and wonderfully odd. Carries on his theme actually.

Kungfu Dinobot
2013-01-23, 01:58 AM
I'm not sure how relevant this is, but there was this one guy trying to justify slavery and genocide at TFW2005


Said guy probably poo-poo'd at George Washington beaing a hypocritical prick though.

Cyberstrike nTo
2013-01-27, 06:19 PM
I'm not sure how relevant this is, but there was this one guy trying to justify slavery and genocide at TFW2005


Said guy probably poo-poo'd at George Washington beaing a hypocritical prick though.


So was all of American founding fathers. They weren't perfect men or gods, they were all flawed and conflicted human beings just like everybody else was, is, and will be.

Auntie Slag
2013-01-27, 08:52 PM
There's Straxus as well: cripples Autobot rebels and spies, then has them lobbed into the Smelting Pool. Then he uses the melted down parts to build... well, something, but whatever it is, it's going to be sick.

That really upped the ante in how um... disturbing Transformers stories could be. Sadly the rather cartoonish drawings of Jose Delbo helped dilute the impact majorly. If it had been done by Geoff Senior or someone I think I would have been a lot more traumatised.

That was all saved because of the inexcusable fact that Delbo hands down drew the best version Blaster. He looked like a full-on hero in those issues.

verytired
2013-01-27, 09:48 PM
Delbo did a pretty horrorifying half melted Scrounge as well :)

Cliffjumper
2013-01-27, 09:58 PM
Was that Delbo? I thought he didn't arrive for another 5 or so issues. I want to say Don Perlin but I think it was the one before him I always think is Don Perlin...

Warcry
2013-01-27, 10:33 PM
It was Don Perlin (I had to look up the credits in the two issues to be sure, though). Who I totally forgot even existed until Cliffy mentioned his name.

To be perfectly honest, all of the Marvel US art looks pretty samey to me, other than Wildman's stuff. Even Senior's US issues don't stand out as all that great, I think because Yomtov's colouring sucks the life out of everything it touches.

Kungfu Dinobot
2013-01-28, 02:34 AM
So was all of American founding fathers. They weren't perfect men or gods, they were all flawed and conflicted human beings just like everybody else was, is, and will be.


Jesus Christ I read enough history books to figure that out, so there's no need to be condescending:sweatdrop


I'm not American by the way, though the guy I mentioned probably is.

verytired
2013-01-29, 01:10 AM
Ah, Perlin, you're right. Bloody good picture though.

Hey, can anyone think of good Delbo art? I want to say the Deceticons sneak attack on the Autobots on the moon, but that maybe rose tinted spectacles.

Cliffjumper
2013-01-29, 10:26 AM
Rhythms looked quite good, as did some of the more mental covers (there's a wonderfully psychotic one of PM Prime for one of the early US Furmans). To be fair to him everything except the Transformers looked smashing. To be fair to everyone else, the Transformers looked terrible pretty much all of the time.

I don't think any of the US artists were helped by Yomtov though, yeh. It's a little bit down to the US colouring system at the time meaning no shading but it's also largely down to him being a lazy, lazy ****er. I've still yet to read any comic of the period that's quite so ineptly coloured except a handful of issues of G.I. Joe (which is a very fair comparison book). I'll just see who the colourist for those was. Oh, Nel Yomtov. Block colouring looks terrible for the most part (though it oddly works alright for some of the Wildman stuff where, say, Kup and Prime are having some sort of vitriolic argument and there's this slightly ephemeral audience of Autobots watching them) and really sucks the life out of the frame. I would actually take abstract cross-hatching or blank banks of colour over that.

I think Delbo's 'grab a character sheet and copy it' method probably brought out the worse in Yomtov, though. Rhythms possibly works best because with the small cast, apocalyptic backdrop and dark palette Yomtov doesn't just go "**** this, everyone's pale blue this week".

William Johnson (7-8) is probably the pick of the Marvel US artists. I'd have killed for a couple of issues by Sienkiwicz rather than just a cover or two, mind.