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Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-08, 05:37 PM
(Because I hate myself)

... and there's one thing I noticed that I don't think I'd ever really twigged before.

(I mean other than every episode having at least one key plot point that makes zero sense whatsoever.)

Aside from Optimus making a comment about him rolling as well as an Autobot, nobody ever mentions the fact that Chip's in a wheelchair. Not one single dialogue acknowledgement. And casting my mind back, I don't think that changes in season 2 (although I've got a nagging suspicion about Desertion of the Dinobots).

Seriously, unless I've missed something, in the first season there's absolutely nothing. No mention of the chair at all, let alone anything to indicate why he's in one. Apart from occasionally lying around waiting to be picked up, he's treated exactly the same as all the other human characters (apart from the thing where he's vaguely competent). It's neither important nor relevant, so they flat-out refuse to let it come anywhere near the bounds of what defines the character.

And that's ****ing superb. Especially for something made in the mid 80s by people who would later come up with the ****ing Primacron plotline.

So yeah, well done Sunbow.

Hound
2015-09-08, 05:48 PM
What's the one in season 2 where Megatron cons the humans into banishing the Autobots from Earth? Megatron's Master Plan? There might be reference to it there, only it's been so long since I've seen it that I couldn't tell you for sure.

Tetsuro
2015-09-08, 07:12 PM
What's the one in season 2 where Megatron cons the humans into banishing the Autobots from Earth? Megatron's Master Plan? There might be reference to it there, only it's been so long since I've seen it that I couldn't tell you for sure.
The only thing that I can think of that comes even close to anything of that sort is Thrust laughing off his insult about him being a pile of "reject parts" or something in those lines.

I've been watching a lot of 80's cartoons lately and despite it's shortcomings, I still think Transformers is one of the better ones - although that might say more about the competition than it does about Transformers.

inflatable dalek
2015-09-08, 07:38 PM
Portraying disabled characters in a non patronising way is a good thing, but constantly putting one in situations where their disability would affect things but ignoring it is arguably just as bad (though in fairness I can't really remember anything Chip does after his first episode where he's rolling about the desert sticking things on Thundercracker(?), so this may have improved). It reminds me of that Ghostbusters cartoon where one of them was in a wheelchair and they did things like cheerfully going down sewers through drains that were clearly not wide enough for their wheelchair to get through.

Plus, even in the 80's the Autobots presumably had the technology to create that Circuit Breaker style exo-suit from Return of Optimus Prime to let the poor guy walk. Did they though? No, the bastards.

I watched More Than Meets the Eye over the weekend, I'd actually forgotten what a nice subversion the ending is, the normal Saturday Morning Cartoon thing to do would be for Prime to sort everything out when he blasts off with Sideswipe's jetpack. His total failure (and fantastic pissed off reaction, which is about the only place he sounds like Bay Prime in the whole thing) and it being Mirage of all people--complete with just enough of a presence earlier on so that it doesn't feel like he came out of nowhere as would have been the case if it had been, say, Windcharger--is actually pretty smart writing.

Which makes it feel as if it was written by someone else than the person who did the really painful scripting in the rest of it. "Look, a meteorite!" "Another one!" "They're going to collide!", what is this, audio description for the blind?

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-08, 07:40 PM
Plus, even in the 80's the Autobots presumably had the technology to create that Circuit Breaker style exo-suit from Return of Optimus Prime to let the poor guy walk. Did they though? No, the bastards.

In Chip's first episode Prowl gets shot a bit so immediately surrenders full control of his body to whoever's got the nearest networked computer.

I wouldn't trust the 1980s cartoon Autobots to make me a sandwich, let alone an exo-suit.

Ryan F
2015-09-08, 07:56 PM
Portraying disabled characters in a non patronising way is a good thing, but constantly putting one in situations where their disability would affect things but ignoring it is arguably just as bad (though in fairness I can't really remember anything Chip does after his first episode where he's rolling about the desert sticking things on Thundercracker(?), so this may have improved). It reminds me of that Ghostbusters cartoon where one of them was in a wheelchair and they did things like cheerfully going down sewers through drains that were clearly not wide enough for their wheelchair to get through.

There's an episode where they all go to Cyberton and the Decepticons conjure up some metal-destroying acid rain that affects the Autobots but not Chip's wheelchair, IIRC.

I think it would have nice if they'd have had an ethic minority regular character as well. Spike, Sparkplug, Daniel, Carly, Marissa Faireborn, Chip... The Transformers are colourful but their human friends are not! At least in the comics we had Walter Barnett and the chat show host woman in Wrestling/King Con.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-08, 08:00 PM
There's an episode where they all go to Cyberton and the Decepticons conjure up some metal-destroying acid rain that affects the Autobots but not Chip's wheelchair, IIRC.

Forget the chair, it doesn't affect Chip. He just sits there getting rained on while the Autobots roll about in agony.

He's not only a super genius but he's also indestructible. That's probably why he's in the chair in the first place, so he's not regarded as too perfect.

They should just make him leader.

inflatable dalek
2015-09-08, 08:05 PM
It must be something in the Portland water, within 30 seconds of first appearing Spike is thrown so hard by Rumble he should be in a wheelchair for life as well.

Selkadoom
2015-09-08, 09:02 PM
There's an episode where they all go to Cyberton and the Decepticons conjure up some metal-destroying acid rain that affects the Autobots but not Chip's wheelchair, IIRC.

I think it would have nice if they'd have had an ethic minority regular character as well. Spike, Sparkplug, Daniel, Carly, Marissa Faireborn, Chip... The Transformers are colourful but their human friends are not! At least in the comics we had Walter Barnett and the chat show host woman in Wrestling/King Con.

Lets not forget a mob of angry Feminists!

Auntie Slag
2015-09-08, 09:15 PM
I watched More Than Meets the Eye over the weekend, I'd actually forgotten what a nice subversion the ending is, the normal Saturday Morning Cartoon thing to do would be for Prime to sort everything out when he blasts off with Sideswipe's jetpack. His total failure (and fantastic pissed off reaction, which is about the only place he sounds like Bay Prime in the whole thing)

That was great wasn't it? To see a leader fail and be a grumpy, annoying bastard about it, only for posh tart Mirage to do it right AND properly annoy Megatron. Proving it wasn't only the main character who was allowed to make the big changes. Its a bit like having Ram-man or Stratos save the day in a He-Man movie.

Maybe that's why I enjoyed Age of Extinction so much; because Prime seems so fed up and annoyed about everything; after spending three films trying to help everyone and being excellent in each one, especially when every other robot is either forgettable or a bit of a spaz.

Shooting TV's Frazier through the chest felt like the coming full-circle of movie Prime's career, and I totally love him for it. If only tech spec mottos could change according to experience: I'd have wanted his to read "It doesn't matter how much you help them, sometimes people are just dicks".

He's a bit like Steve Zissou by the end. I love jerk Prime... and jerk Prime was right there 30 years ago, only with a bit more John Wayne!

Cliffjumper
2015-09-08, 09:25 PM
I dunno, I think just about every incarnation of Prime (obviously excluding shit like Armergtron or the silly crap one that I've not bothered watching) has had a bit where he's just had en-****ing-ough. Crisis of Command in the comic where he comes up with some vague pretense to cover his desire to just go and beat the shit out of all the Decepticons, Prime Target in the cartoon where he can deal with the Decepticons bothering him every week but some idiot game hunter just tips him over the edge, TF:TM where you know if the camera had cut across a second earlier he'd be facepalming and going "Nice one Dinobots, that was exactly what I ****ing meant", ROTF where he just bursts through a factory wall and shoots absolutely everybody...

By comparison Emo PM Prime really hasn't aged well.

Lets not forget a mob of angry Feminists!

Ahh, that famous ethnic minority of Feminists.

Auntie Slag
2015-09-08, 09:35 PM
That's certainly true. I didn't even think of those comparisons when I wrote the last post.

I just feel like AoE had the benefit of being so full of metal and wonderful, pulsing, crunching sound-effects together with Cullen's now old gravelly, rasping voice. It really nails what I've seen Prime display plenty of times in the comic... now with all that brilliant noise and anger. I guess I just don't get tired of it, because especially in the comics, like you say, it was joy when he'd had enough of agonising and let rip.

I like to think that, what with The Wreckers, Sentinel and other things appearing in the live action movies, some of the people responsible for the films have read the Marvel UK material and are channelling elements of Crisis of Command, Target: 2006 etc.

So pissed off, Mr. full-on Prime in the films only exists because Hendrix Prime was there all those years ago in the comics doing his thing we like, and they saw it & wanted some of that for their Prime too.

Warcry
2015-09-09, 04:18 PM
I've been watching a lot of 80's cartoons lately and despite it's shortcomings, I still think Transformers is one of the better ones - although that might say more about the competition than it does about Transformers.
Surprisingly, I think that's true. When I've attempted to watch stuff like Thundercats or He-Man, they were so bad that I just couldn't do it. Transformers at least makes for decent background noise, and some episodes are perilously close to being good.

Which makes it feel as if it was written by someone else than the person who did the really painful scripting in the rest of it. "Look, a meteorite!" "Another one!" "They're going to collide!", what is this, audio description for the blind?
In spite of all of that, it was a really good introduction to the characters and the universe -- a million times better than what the comic managed with their intro miniseries, to be sure. I really loved that the writers took the time to feature so many characters. I'd say at least 80% of the cast at least got a moment to show off their personality and/or special abilities. They made the likes of Hound, Cliffjumper, Mirage (like you say, him saving the day instead of Prime is a great twist), Trailbreaker, Huffer, Reflector, Skywarp and co. feel like people for a moment instead of just scene-fillers. Unfortunately that's something that the cartoon lost track of really quickly, because after the next few episodes the cast slowly shrunk down to Prime, Bumblebee, Jazz, Ironhide, Megatron, Starscream and a bunch of interchangable nobodies who only showed up when the plot called for their weapon/abilities/knowledge.

I think it would have nice if they'd have had an ethic minority regular character as well. Spike, Sparkplug, Daniel, Carly, Marissa Faireborn, Chip... The Transformers are colourful but their human friends are not! At least in the comics we had Walter Barnett and the chat show host woman in Wrestling/King Con.
I can see why you'd say that, but on the other hand...Carbombya. The Sunbow crew didn't exactly have a good track record when it comes to minorities and I'm pretty sure any recurring minority allies would have been written as lazy stereotypes.

Tetsuro
2015-09-09, 05:06 PM
Surprisingly, I think that's true. When I've attempted to watch stuff like Thundercats or He-Man, they were so bad that I just couldn't do it. Transformers at least makes for decent background noise, and some episodes are perilously close to being good.
Maybe I'm just forgiving when it comes to childrens' entertainment (the reason is probably right there in the name), but the biggest fault in a lot of the cartoons I've watched, particularly those of the 80's, is falling victim to taking the easy way out in how they present the conflict between good and evil; that being making the villains too stupid and incompetent to be menacing but still having enough character to further highlight the protagonists' conversely bland and boring personalities (if they have any at all), to say nothing of the latter's self-righteous preachiness all the more painful to listen to.

On that note, I find Transformers having both enough personality on both sides of the conflict (even if it's not always consistently portrayed) to not make you root for either side too easily, and the occasional moment of moralism is subtle enough to work, such Prime's first line after being resurrected in War Dawn.

It's not as blatant and out-of-the-blue as the sudden "stranger danger" PSA in one episode of Dinosaucers that goes on for at least a whole minute and even has the supposed villains agree with it.

Hell, the Aerialbots are a personification of internal conflict within the good guys faction, which is an exceedingly rare thing to see in an 80's cartoon.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-13, 04:35 PM
"If only there were some way of separating this patient's mind from his body during surgery".
- things that doctors probably say all the time because it's medically sound.

"Well doc, just so happens I've got just the thing. Conveniently knocked it up five minutes ago. It's designed for robots, but I'm a responsible parent so I'm sure it'll be fine."

I'm seriously glad we only got selected episodes of the cartoon on video. Sure I ended up watching Heavy Metal War three hundred and twenty seven times, but at least I didn't have to deal with stuff like The Secret of Omega Supreme until I was in my twenties.

Cliffjumper
2015-09-13, 05:16 PM
Yeh, in relative terms the cartoon isn't bad compared to the stuff around it. Voltron's not too bad as long as you avoid any episode where someone died in the Japanese version, which is where the edits get really painful. G.I. Joe's a bit up and down - there are good episodes (the ones with Shipwreck in them) and bad episodes (the ones without Shipwreck in them). Gobots can actually be fun at times because it's so silly, so badly written and so badly made. It suffers from the same problem as G1 later on with such a huge focus on the central characters but every now and then they come up with a really fun 'guest' character - who then does nothing the following week.

Rewatching Prime with my toddler at the moment and quite enjoying... Not quite got the punch of first viewing because I'm not quite so hugely grateful that it's not Fanimated but most of it stands up pretty well when you remember it's still basically aimed at eight-year olds. Prime just being prepared to die like a bitch from the cold is pretty bad, though - it's like someone let Furman write him or something.

EDIT: Yeh, the relative scarcity of the cartoon in the eighties and nineties did its' reputation no end of good to me. Allowing for the fact we got a higher proportion of Season 3 due to it not being on the telly (so Nightmare Planet, Carnage in C-Minor etc.) the Season 1-2 episodes released seemed to have been very carefully picked for the most part.

And then they came out on DVD...

Tetsuro
2015-09-13, 05:46 PM
I'm seriously glad we only got selected episodes of the cartoon on video. Sure I ended up watching Heavy Metal War three hundred and twenty seven times, but at least I didn't have to deal with stuff like The Secret of Omega Supreme until I was in my twenties.
I'm not sure about that - how many tapes did The Girl Who Loved Powerglide end up on again?

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-13, 05:51 PM
I'm not sure about that - how many tapes did The Girl Who Loved Powerglide end up on again?

Only once that I had.

According to the Waki, Tempo put it out twice (once with Heavy Metal War; once with Call of the Primitives for some reason, never knew that).

Then in 1990 Collins put it out on its own and Abbey put it out with HMW again.

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-09-13, 06:05 PM
I had the VHS tape with The Girl Who Loved Powerglide and Call Of The Primitives. Ugh, that was bad. Space monkey? No, ta.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-14, 05:59 PM
I think Attack of the Autobots has to be the worst episode of season 2. Possibly even the entire run.

I mean sure other episodes have their own assaults on the notions of quality, continuity and sense. I mean sure Megatron used to routinely botch things by not bothering to tell the other Decepticons his plans. I mean sure just shooting Starscream in the head after the first episode would have been the sensible thing to do. I mean sure it took until 2005 for Megatron to realise there was mileage in the notion of just setting phasers to kill. But...

I mean come on.

The notion that not once in the time after this episode did any of the Decepticons say "hey remember that invisibility spray you used to sneak into the Autobot base and reprogram their recharger to make them evil... why don't we use that again for something?"

****, man.

I'm watching this shit and all I can hear is Kryten saying "or we could just use the invisibility spray."

[EDIT]
Anybody wanting to change the thread title to "Brend rewatches all the cartoon; place your bets on exactly when he'll snap and kill us all" is welcome to crack on.

Tetsuro
2015-09-14, 06:20 PM
....no, no, that's still not as bad as Megatron's Master Plan.

I mean, the "corrupt politician strikes a deal with the Decepticon" angle could have been used so well, but instead it's wasted on a story that relies entirely on the notion that the entire human race is fecking stupid to work. "Carefully examining the evidence" apparently means "not even bothering to watch the whole fecking tape" - and that just being one of the problems with that story.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-14, 06:22 PM
No, because y'know what they could have used at the end of that recording to stop the reveal being seen?

Invisibility spray.

Warcry
2015-09-14, 06:33 PM
I'm assuming the corrupt politician used Invisibility Spray to make the entire US government and legal system disappear so that the mayor of a small town in Oregon would somehow inherit the authority to sentence people to interstellar exile.

It would have taken a lot, so obviously he exhausted the supply.

Skyquake87
2015-09-14, 07:04 PM
fancy someone taking some evidence and using it for their own ends. sounds exactly the sort of slippery tomfoolery some politicians get up to in office...

inflatable dalek
2015-09-14, 07:16 PM
the mayor of a small town in Oregon would somehow inherit the authority to sentence people to interstellar exile.

Point of order, it's never established as Oregon in the cartoon so he could actually have been mayor of somewhere really important. Based on a close study of all the geographical evidence in the episodes (a volcano by itself rather than in a range, in a place no one would ever notice a giant spaceship sticking out the side of it in thousands of years of humans occupying America, in a desert except when there's a forest outside, next to the sea except when it isn't) I can conclusively prove that the Ark is slap bang in the middle of Madeup****ingnowheresstate.

In fairness on the invisibility spray, the Autobots could have taken measures against it so as to make it impossible for the Decepticons to do the same again. Like, for example, reprogramming Teletran to tell them when invisible Decepticons are in the Ark and doing things to their recharge slabs rather than waiting till it's asked about it afterwards.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-14, 07:23 PM
Like, for example, reprogramming Teletran to tell them when invisible Decepticons are in the Ark and doing things to their recharge slabs rather than waiting till it's asked about it afterwards.

Teletraan-1 really is ****ing weird. They've got this omniscient computer with its own spy satellite, which is more than capable of sorting out the week's plot within twenty seconds... and the only time they ever seem to remember is when Chip pipes up with "well I know, why don't we ask Teletraan-1".

Chip Chase should be Autobot leader.

While I understand the logic behind Metrodome's DVD ordering, it does end up being really ****ing bizarre that the season 2 credits are 90% characters who don't turn up until over a dozen episodes in. Imagine watching this with a child. "Who's that? Who's that? Why aren't they in it? Why are they still not in it? When are they in it?"

inflatable dalek
2015-09-14, 07:29 PM
They should have gone with Auntie.

The broadcast order of the episodes isn't much better for getting to the new characters quickly is it? IIRC season 2 just sort of stumbles into life as if they had a whole load of episodes left over from season 1 rather the Big Event/New Toy Promotions of every other season, even Rebirth.

Oddly it's also the only season that doesn't end with an big Event episode that could also potentially serve as the Last Ever Episode. Presumably because they knew the film was coming and couldn't be ****ed to do anything better than BOT to wrap the year up.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-14, 07:45 PM
Oddly it's also the only season that doesn't end with an big Event episode that could also potentially serve as the Last Ever Episode. Presumably because they knew the film was coming and couldn't be ****ed to do anything better than BOT to wrap the year up.

Well I for one remember being very emotionally invested in whatever it was that happened to Brawl in that episode.

Sometimes think the Japanese had the right idea in just mixing seasons 1 and 2 together. I think their series ended with The Ultimate Doom, which kind of makes sense though it completely borks Countdown to Extinction.

Double-checking that also reminded me that they were sensible enough to ditch Attack of the Autobots from the airing order entirely so yay Japan.

(I will be treating SUCURAMBO CITAY as my season 2 finalé)

inflatable dalek
2015-09-14, 07:51 PM
You'd have thought with the film coming and with it being well on the road to being finished by the time the later season 2 episodes went into production they'd have done a bit more to smoothly mesh into it. Not in a way that would depend on seeing the film to make sense (mind, they kick off season 3 with a story that's a big **** off to everyone who didn't see the film, there's what, a ten second voiceover to try and explain the drastic change in status quo?) or might affect things being shown out of order in reruns too much. Just simple things. Do a story where the Autobots establish bases on the moons, end the season with a two parter where the Protectobots are introduced properly in an Ark Duty style story about building Autobot City.

Just small things that wouldn't be intrusive to the overall flow of the show but would make that transition less drastic. There are a lot of places where the second year feels completely rudderless.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-14, 07:56 PM
I think that, by that point, trying to introduce the pretence that anybody involved gave a shit about coherence would have been completely implausible.

inflatable dalek
2015-09-14, 08:02 PM
I think you just killed your own thread.

There's the story I heard David Wise tell (on a Moonbase 2 interview I think) when he talked about coming in to do an interview with Flint Dille about writing for season 3 and how surprised he was when Dille asked him "What stories do you want to tell?" because he thought it was a ludicrous thing to be trying to do stories you have an investment in on Transformers.

Now, he tells this as an example of Where Things Went Wrong with season 3 and it's supposed to make Dille look bad. One of the show's most prolific (and best, sadly) writers thought it was silly the script editor wanted to try and get the authors to give a toss. There's everything wrong with what was going on behind the scenes in a nutshell really.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-14, 08:18 PM
I think you just killed your own thread.

I BROUGHT IT INTO THIS WORLD AND BY GOD I'LL TAKE IT OUT OF IT.

Tetsuro
2015-09-14, 08:26 PM
In fairness on the invisibility spray, the Autobots could have taken measures against it so as to make it impossible for the Decepticons to do the same again.
Well they do install metal detectors in the Ark entrance in Enter the Nightbird.

And of course, TF Wiki points out the fallacy of Autobots, who are made of metal, installing metal detectors - but there's nothing in the episode suggesting they can't simply turn them off.

Auntie Slag
2015-09-14, 09:52 PM
But as kids we all knew Transformers were made of something more than ordinary Earth metal. Nightbird however was Earth metal, and the detector would have picked her up. Made sense, no fallacy surely!

Tetsuro
2015-09-14, 10:15 PM
Except Wheeljack demonstrated that the metal detectors DID detect Cybertronians by triggering them with his hand, and since they were triggered by contact, Nightbird avoided them by scaling the ceiling instead.

Maybe they only detected Cybertronian alloys, but they did make a point of showing Nightbird avoiding them.

Auntie Slag
2015-09-14, 10:56 PM
Ah, fair enough then.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-15, 08:37 PM
Upto Megatron's Master Plan.

Obviously I remembered that Starscream was both pretending to be Optimus Prime and also one of the Decepticons who was saving the day, but I'd clean forgotten that there was actually no point in the narrative where they could possibly have filmed the unmasking.

Oh, Sunbow. You so craycray.

Of course the big quest is, given that it happens in Central City, why the Autobots needed to be about in the first place. Surely The Flash could have stopped the Decepticons. Unless he was too busy dealing with Backwards Flash or Negative Flash or Naughty Flash or whatever his nemesis is called. Corporal Chilly? I don't know. All these Dark Horse villains are the same to me.

Tetsuro
2015-09-15, 09:36 PM
Obviously I remembered that Starscream was both pretending to be Optimus Prime and also one of the Decepticons who was saving the day, but I'd clean forgotten that there was actually no point in the narrative where they could possibly have filmed the unmasking.
I'm beginning to wonder if that was the writers' plan all along; write a story so terrible that you'd be too distracted to notice all the usual errors!

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-16, 08:21 PM
Okay, so the new characters in season 2 are among those Transformers affected by the millions-of-years of exposure to Earth's radiation in Desertion of the Dinobots.

Which basically means the only possible explanation for where they came from is that they were being kept in a cupboard for the whole of season 1 and, at some point off camera, somebody accidentally opened it.

I mean why wouldn't you lock Warpath up in a cupboard and forget about him?

Tetsuro
2015-09-16, 09:14 PM
Well, they pretty much ended up storing the Dinobots in a cupboard too, didn't they? Most of the episodes featuring them makes it look like they just stand in a closet when they're not needed.

No wonder they decided to tell Prime to sod off and buggered off to Cybertron.

Cliffjumper
2015-09-16, 10:31 PM
I mean why wouldn't you lock Warpath up in a cupboard and forget about him?

He'd still be alive? The Season 2 Minibots are basically all useless nutcases. I have a theory they were all in Autobot City Earth during the Movie and Magnus took one look at them and thought "we're not that desperate".

Yes, I know he's on one of Unicron's claw things. Everyone knows that. There are undiscovered tribes in the Amazon untouched by the rest of humanity that know that.

Hound
2015-09-17, 01:59 AM
They were always there, just doing other things in and around the Ark and we just never saw them til then.

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-09-17, 07:27 PM
I'm assuming the corrupt politician used Invisibility Spray to make the entire US government and legal system disappear so that the mayor of a small town in Oregon would somehow inherit the authority to sentence people to interstellar exile.

It would have taken a lot, so obviously he exhausted the supply.

IIRC the guy wasn't the mayor he was a crooked businessman that lost a bitter mayoral race.

inflatable dalek
2015-09-18, 01:46 PM
Upto Megatron's Master Plan.

Obviously I remembered that Starscream was both pretending to be Optimus Prime and also one of the Decepticons who was saving the day, but I'd clean forgotten that there was actually no point in the narrative where they could possibly have filmed the unmasking.

Oh, Sunbow. You so craycray.

Of course the big quest is, given that it happens in Central City, why the Autobots needed to be about in the first place. Surely The Flash could have stopped the Decepticons. Unless he was too busy dealing with Backwards Flash or Negative Flash or Naughty Flash or whatever his nemesis is called. Corporal Chilly? I don't know. All these Dark Horse villains are the same to me.

I think the most telling thing is the Michael Bay remake makes more sense. Just let that sink in for a second.


Which basically means the only possible explanation for where they came from is that they were being kept in a cupboard for the whole of season 1 and, at some point off camera, somebody accidentally opened it.

I mean why wouldn't you lock Warpath up in a cupboard and forget about him?

Wait, so all those people saying "Tracks was in the closet" were actually being completely literal rather than mildly homophobic after all then?

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-18, 05:53 PM
Okay, so The Secret of Omega Supreme leaves me with the same lingering question I always have when I've watched it previously.

Mainly why do so many people jump through hoops to try to reconcile this with the other Constructicon episodes when it's just far simpler to put this entire piece of shit in the bin and pretend it never happened?

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-09-18, 06:26 PM
Okay, so The Secret of Omega Supreme leaves me with the same lingering question I always have when I've watched it previously.

Mainly why do so many people jump through hoops to try to reconcile this with the other Constructicon episodes when it's just far simpler to put this entire piece of shit in the bin and pretend it never happened?

I totally agree. Unfortunately, many fanboys (as well as Takara and John Barber) love nothing more than trying to patch up and justify terrible storytelling and continuity. One of the charms of the fandom. :)

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-18, 06:33 PM
Oh I don't have any objection to continuity-patching. If something doesn't quite work and somebody can do a straightforward logical in-fiction workaround then fair play.

But SoOS just flat-out doesn't work. It doesn't contribute anything worthwhile to the canon and can easily be handwaved away as Omega Supreme being a delusional lunatic. "Just this once I will talk like I did before the incident that made me decide to talk like this". ****ing seriously.

eHobby didn't even bother doing a "standing around doing nothing Decepticon" slightly-darker-red version of Sideswipe from the episode. Not even eHobby give a toss about the episode. It serves no purpose whatsoever.

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-09-18, 06:37 PM
Mmmmmm, how about MP-12D Darker Red Lazy Decepticon Sideswipe? I may be tempted.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-19, 08:03 AM
I don't know who's stupider. Alpha Trion for giving Elita One a "special power" that she can't use because it'll kill her; or Elita One for using it despite the fact that the only thing Trion ever says to her is "remember never to use your special power".

This episode can go in the bin too. It's not even necessary for knowing who the characters are when they crop up later on.

I'm definitely drawing up my own abridged season 2 running order when I'm finished.

Tetsuro
2015-09-19, 09:35 AM
...and the next time we see Alpha Trion, they'd discarded the whole "mystical recluse" angle and the Decepticons have no trouble finding his workshop which is now an even bigger mess than Wheeljack's.

To be fair, it does sound like Hasbro's meddling didn't exactly make trying to maintain some kind of continuity easy.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-19, 11:24 AM
Yeah, evil Hasbro, insisting on Alpha Trion and Moonracer being plugged.

Scripts being written concurrently, the rush to get to 65 episodes regardless of quality and none of the writers giving a shit is probably a bigger factor than any Hasbro mandate.

Cliffjumper
2015-09-19, 12:02 PM
I'm definitely drawing up my own abridged season 2 running order when I'm finished.


Auto-Beserk
Skids saying "Robotic insecticide?!?"
That bit in "Revenge of Bruticus" where Prime's holding two guns.

Then the film until Starscream dies, then any Season 3 episodes with pre-Movie guys in speaking roles, then The Rebirth because it's shorter that the Japanese stuff, then Wages of Fear.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-19, 12:07 PM
Huge part of me thinks that there's absolutely no problem with getting to Heavy Metal War, going "twenty years later" and just sticking the movie on...

Cliffjumper
2015-09-19, 12:21 PM
Season 2 always had this mystical vibe for me - we didn't seem to get much of it with the likes of Hoist, Red Alert, Inferno, Grapple, Smokescreen etc. in it. Then the internet intervened and I realised they were just as annoying as the first lot in cartoon form.

Tetsuro
2015-09-19, 12:54 PM
Scripts being written concurrently, the rush to get to 65 episodes regardless of quality and none of the writers giving a shit is probably a bigger factor than any Hasbro mandate.
And the mandate certainly had nothing to do with why none of them were giving a toss.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-19, 01:11 PM
Not buying it. Story editors not having time to do detailed passes of the script is an entirely different problem to having a cast list.

It's an issue that exists in pretty much all cartoons from that era. Get to 65 episodes so it can be syndicated, make sure they all end on a reset so that they can be aired out of order.

Where continuity is necessary, all it needs is for the script co-ordinators to be paying attention so that, if episodes are re-ordered, they at least don't contradict one another. The schedule is the thing that stops that being done, rather than Hasbro saying "hey could you introduce the Aerialbots at some point".

If you want an example of how this can turn out far, far worse under the same conditions then I'm sure Cliffy can walk you through the equivalent series advertising the Gobots.

Tetsuro
2015-09-19, 01:49 PM
I dunno, I just kind of imagine that they came up with character concepts like the ones introduced in Search for Alpha Trion, only for Hasbro to suddenly issue a mandate that requires them to introduce story elements that fly right in the face of what they'd try to establish previously, so rather than trying to work around it, they just couldn't be bothered.

...but I kinda doubt that's the case with the Constructicons so in all likelihood I'm just making wild and unfounded guesses here.

And I kinda liked the Gobots cartoon, too...

Cliffjumper
2015-09-19, 01:57 PM
And the mandate certainly had nothing to do with why none of them were giving a toss.

Seriously? The G1 "writing team" (chances of more than three being in a room at the same time during production = 1.8%) were a bunch of jaded hacks who shopped the same bunch of semi re-written scripts around every series to get rent money while they tried to write non-franchised stuff. The Donald Glut interview shows how little of a shit was given as to quality of the finished product.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-19, 02:49 PM
I forgot how completely and ****ing awesome each and every one of the Combaticons' voices are.

Also I haven't seen a Dinobot in over twenty episodes. I hope they're okay. :(

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-20, 10:28 AM
Ha. Masquerade. Camouflage paint. Almost as stupid as invisibility spray, but not quite.

Rendered even more implausible by the fact Starscream of all people sees straight through it with no supporting evidence.

"I've waited a long time for this, Prime" says Motormaster who's only been alive for about a week.

[EDIT]
Right, I've got this mess down to 26 episodes. It's a sensible number, I could probably get it down to even more without much hassle, but as a multiple of thirteen I think it's fine. Obviously I'll have junked episodes you like and kept ones you hate, but I ain't answerable to you, so **** it.

Traitor
The Immobilizer
The Insecticon Syndrome
Dinobot Island, Part 1
Dinobot Island, Part 2
The Master Builders
Auto Berserk
Microbots
Desertion of the Dinobots, Part 1
Desertion of the Dinobots, Part 2
Blaster Blues
A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court
The Golden Lagoon
The God Gambit
Make Tracks
The Gambler
Triple Takeover*
Prime Target
The Girl Who Loved Powerglide**
The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 1
The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 2
Trans-Europe Express
Cosmic Rust
Starscream's Brigade
The Revenge of Bruticus
War Dawn

* just for Starscream admitting he's an idiot
** need to just trim down that last scene

Hound
2015-09-20, 03:51 PM
Looks right to me.

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-09-20, 05:58 PM
Ha. Masquerade. Camouflage paint. Almost as stupid as invisibility spray, but not quite.

Rendered even more implausible by the fact Starscream of all people sees straight through it with no supporting evidence.

"I've waited a long time for this, Prime" says Motormaster who's only been alive for about a week.

[EDIT]
Right, I've got this mess down to 26 episodes. It's a sensible number, I could probably get it down to even more without much hassle, but as a multiple of thirteen I think it's fine. Obviously I'll have junked episodes you like and kept ones you hate, but I ain't answerable to you, so **** it.

Traitor
The Immobilizer
The Insecticon Syndrome
Dinobot Island, Part 1
Dinobot Island, Part 2
The Master Builders
Auto Berserk
Microbots
Desertion of the Dinobots, Part 1
Desertion of the Dinobots, Part 2
Blaster Blues
A Decepticon Raider in King Arthur's Court
The Golden Lagoon
The God Gambit
Make Tracks
The Gambler
Triple Takeover*
Prime Target
The Girl Who Loved Powerglide**
The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 1
The Key to Vector Sigma, Part 2
Trans-Europe Express
Cosmic Rust
Starscream's Brigade
The Revenge of Bruticus
War Dawn

* just for Starscream admitting he's an idiot
** need to just trim down that last scene

OK, so if all that rubbish is cut what are we left with? ;)

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-20, 06:02 PM
going "twenty years later" and just sticking the movie on...
.

Auntie Slag
2015-09-20, 06:42 PM
I wonder if Scramble City should have been included on the Metrodome Season 2; Part 2 disc? That would made for a lovelyl extra. Its nice that its present on the TF:TM 2-disc, but perhaps many of us would have bought a previous version of the movie by that point?

My VHS copy of the movie from '87 lasted until the early 2000's, when mould finally got the tape inside. I'd already bought a re-issue of the film from Tesco by that point, complete with dodgy day-glo artwork that would have offended the young me and the utterly serious, dark and edgy atmos the movie was projecting.

And its ace music.

Cliffjumper
2015-09-20, 06:50 PM
Triple Takeover is superb. I remember that it had this really good rep from the nineties Sunbow Massive - there's a military coup by Blitzwing, and he turns into a jet and a tank and has a purple sword!!!! And he's really good and smashes up a ton of Autobots!!!!

And the result is awful, but in that utterly brilliant awful way that only G1 could do while still remaining fantastically watchable.


They plot their conspiracy while shooting their faces into Mount Rushmore!
Blitzwing takes over a Transformer-sized football stadium!
Astrotrain just ****s off and does something dumb he could have done any week where the episode wasn't set in space.
"Hey, Megatron, we going into space this week?"
"No, we're building a stationary super-laser and relying on the Autobots walking in front of it."
"Cool, I'll be down the railyard building some sentient trains."
"Whatever, spacebus."
Blitzwing keeps firing footballs at the scoreboard and yelling "MOAR POINTS 4 BLITZWING".
Prowl's team just drive around the weird concrete maze thing at idiotic speeds for no reason other than to get squashed by Blitzwing.
Scrapper basically transforms and rebuilts the Autobots to make Blitzwing's throne and is then just sitting on it (probably wearing Blitzwing's silver heels out of shot) when Hoist and Powerglide rock up.
A pipe gets broken and the entire ****ing city floods.
Blitzwing offers the Constructicons joint leadership (which would be of the Coneheads basically) then decides against it out of sheer prickishness and has about three frames of looking really smug about it before they form Devastator and he's suddenly all "Derp derp, didn't think that through at all".
Megatron wins the resulting Leaderbowl simply because they're out of time and everything needs to be back in place for next week.
Nothing that Blitzwing and Astrotrain do in this episode has any sort of follow-up at all. Hell, Blitzwing even gets picked out of the hat to be the honourable Decepticon guy in FFoD despite the fact this episode shows he's a prick even in relative terms after basically trying to **** the entire damn faction to make himself feel better about his fat marshmallow sandwich wings.

I want to take this episode out for an expensive carbonara then frame its' ****ing soul.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-20, 07:09 PM
See I opted for the "just get massively drunk while watching the middle of the season" approach. All I remember about Takeover is that I had a mouthful of brandy when Starscream admitted he's an idiot so I nearly ****ing choked to death.

But those are also valid points.

Tetsuro
2015-09-20, 09:28 PM
I wonder if Scramble City should have been included on the Metrodome Season 2; Part 2 disc? That would made for a lovelyl extra. Its nice that its present on the TF:TM 2-disc, but perhaps many of us would have bought a previous version of the movie by that point?
Maybe, but the newest release is worth the admission price just on the basis of not looking like a videotape dump. Which I'm pretty sure all the previous DVD releases were. Except for Reconstructed, which looked like arse for an entirely different reason.

Speaking of looking like arse, there is no copy of Scramble City out there that doesn't look like it, is there? Zone at least has a serviceable laserdisc rip.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-25, 09:31 PM
SCRAMBLE CITY LOL.

The omniscient narrator who doesn't give a shit about pretending it's not just an advert gone rogue.

The way the jets and Devastator are pissing all over Prime and his four mates until the Aerialbots do a bit of shooting and then it's all "oh noes run away" (yes I know this is standard protocol but it never stops being stupid).

The way Starscream acts like he's never heard of the Stunticons.

The way the Stunticons have to be told to combine.

SCRAMBLE POWER.

Prime being surprised that Menasor also has SCRAMBLE POWER.

The ****ing thing with the arm/leg swap.

The way Fireflight (or is it Air Raid? It looks like Air Raid but his back's red and they call him Firebolt) just runs off to Prime and starts crying that it's his fault instead of shooting the **** out of the new leg until it disengages.

The way the Autobots are getting bitchslapped by Menasor and Bruticus and desperately calling for Metroplex to help; only for Metroplex to be followed into combat by the Protectobots because everybody forgot they could have just called them in in the first place. Because let's face it you would forget about the Protectobots.

This is peak Transformers.

Tetsuro
2015-09-25, 11:13 PM
The omniscient narrator who doesn't give a shit about pretending it's not just an advert gone rogue.
Apparently the JP dub of the main cartoon does this a lot.

But yeah, if you need any proof to why the combiners' ability to swap limbs was never really explored in any fiction, Scramble City is all you need to see; only about 16 minutes of new footage and the animators couldn't even keep track of the combiner limbs for that long!

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-29, 06:44 PM
Forget being aimed at them, the first episode of Five Faces feels and looks like it was made by eight-year-olds.

Tetsuro
2015-09-29, 08:05 PM
Was it Simpsons or Batman where AKOM did such a consistently bad job they got kicked out of the production?

Unicron
2015-09-29, 08:09 PM
Was it Simpsons or Batman where AKOM did such a consistently bad job they got kicked out of the production?
Batman. They did too many episodes of Simpsons to have been axed

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-29, 08:51 PM
**** me. Chaos. Yeah, lets have an episode where the core cast alongside Kup is Grimlock, Wheelie, Blurr and Wreck-Gar. Because that won't be ****ing annoying in the slightest.

Death crystals. Christ alive.

Anyway, big up Victor Caroli and his HEROICALLY frantic recaps at the beginning of each episode of Five Faces. An unsung central midfield workhorse if ever there was one. A man of the match performance in a relegation-baiting result.

Cliffjumper
2015-09-29, 09:10 PM
I always remember FFoD as an ambitious script undone by super-crap animation (and I think it is probably the worst of the series; Akom's stuff's always primitive but everything in FFoD is so sluggish) until I actually sit down and watch it - things like the garbage scoop, the off-switch and so on would still be shit if it looked like Akira.

Tetsuro
2015-09-30, 12:48 AM
I guess it's only a sign of my forgiving nature that I don't even consider Madman's Paradise that bad a story...at worst, it's just kind of embarassing - like the fact that they couldn't think of a better name for Golden One.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-30, 08:10 PM
The most jarring thing about season 3 so far is Fight or Flee.

I mean yeah it's got animation errors like the Bruticus thing, and there's the whole bit where only one character on the whole of Paradron has a name or personality; but not only has it got a solid story but it doesn't look like it was drawn by me.

How the **** did this slip through quality control?

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-30, 08:33 PM
Oh it's alright here's Thief in the Night to balance the scales.

Where the Autobots, who have conquered the notion of interstellar transport, don't notice a giant t-rex stealing landmarks and hiding in the nation with a history of harbouring Decepticons. Even when they're actively trying to find him.

"Dinosaur transform electrons". FFS.

Cliffjumper
2015-09-30, 10:53 PM
How the **** did this slip through quality control?

That script too. I know everyone's said the Magnus quote so often it's lost something but about the first ten minutes especially is just full of cracking lines. Plus Rodimus is such an absolute prick at the end.

"Thief in the Night" is amazing because it's obvious that they've either just completely forgotten which Triple Changer was dramatically exiled at the end of "FFoD" or are just hoping everyone else has. Plus what the **** is Fadakki going to do with all those monuments anyway?

"Hey, American pig-dogs, I see your Statue of Liberty has been stolen. Why not jump on a plane to Carbombya and see the one I have here?"

I mean, is the guy trying to start a war or what?

Brendocon 2.0
2015-10-01, 07:53 AM
That script too. I know everyone's said the Magnus quote so often it's lost something but about the first ten minutes especially is just full of cracking lines. Plus Rodimus is such an absolute prick at the end.

I always liked it as an episode anyway, but its only in context of everything else that you realise just how good it is as a Transformers ep. It's like it's gotten confused and wandered in from an actual decent program by mistake.

"Thief in the Night" is amazing because it's obvious that they've either just completely forgotten which Triple Changer was dramatically exiled at the end of "FFoD" or are just hoping everyone else has.

Given that FFoD was never released on video over here (which is still a bit bizarre given the shit they did put out), I'd always just assumed Octane was just operating his own agenda. It's only when put in context with the other episode that it gets a bit peculiar.

My favourite part of "Forever is a Long Time Coming" is how the Autobots who've met Alpha Trion can't work out who A3 is without being told; despite him looking exactly the ****ing same, just with a moustache instead of a beard.

Oh to have the power to go back and scrap half this rubbish and free up the budget to make Dark Awakening look as good as Fight or Flee.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-01, 08:03 AM
IIRC the Wiki has some Japanese promotion for Starscream's Ghost with Blitzwing in it instead of Octane, suggesting they were originally going to follow up on FFOD but a nice friendly Hasbro exec walked past and cheerfully said "Hey, that's a nice story about a Triple Changer you've got there. Wouldn't you like to make it about our new Triple Changer?" whilst cracking their knuckles.

Which also, worryingly, suggests Thief in the Night was written afterwards to try and fill in the backstory for Octane that the reworked script now assumed you knew about him. See, someone did care! Just not enough to make sure the three now linked episodes (including the "Sandstorm can't be in one before this" Fight or Flee) went out in the right order.

Ryan F
2015-10-01, 12:07 PM
That script too. I know everyone's said the Magnus quote so often it's lost something but about the first ten minutes especially is just full of cracking lines.

Cyclonus throws a generic robot guy into a computer monitor; his back half is now dangling out of said screen. "Hey, I'm stuck up here!"

Cyclonus (shrugging): "Everybody's gotta be somewhere..."

inflatable dalek
2015-10-02, 02:09 PM
I love cartoon Cyclonus, old Harry Mudd really knocked the impressively deep yet world weary at the very idea of what Galvatron might have done now thing out of the park.

Warcry
2015-10-02, 03:34 PM
Season three is my favourite of the bunch because there's actually some attempt to make actual characters out of the new main cast, no matter how much it went off the rails by the end. And Cyclonus is probably the best of the bunch. Carmel was awesome but the character also got scripted a lot better than anyone else bar Rodimus (who actually managed to come off as a good leader in spite of ticking off all of the "why in the world is this irresponsible idiot in charge?" boxes).

Tetsuro
2015-10-02, 04:21 PM
Carmel was awesome but the character also got scripted a lot better than anyone else bar Rodimus (who actually managed to come off as a good leader in spite of ticking off all of the "why in the world is this irresponsible idiot in charge?" boxes).
While I can see what they tried to do with Rodimus, I can kind of understand the initial reactions and people calling him a whiner to this day, because that's exactly what he comes across as in a less competent script.

Except when Ultra Magnus tells him about the mantle of leadership and he asks if he'd like to buy a slightly used mantle. That was funny.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-02, 04:23 PM
Rodimus was basically a Lion-O knockoff really wasn't he? Youth aged before his time into the leader's role and having to cope with it. Thankfully they only did the "He has the ghost of his dead mentor hanging about" thing a couple of times or it'd have been really obvious.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-10-02, 04:24 PM
Season three is my favourite of the bunch because there's actually some attempt to make actual characters out of the new main cast, no matter how much it went off the rails by the end. And Cyclonus is probably the best of the bunch. Carmel was awesome but the character also got scripted a lot better than anyone else bar Rodimus (who actually managed to come off as a good leader in spite of ticking off all of the "why in the world is this irresponsible idiot in charge?" boxes).

Rodimus is a character that I've find got a lot more time for the older I get.

I mean yeah, he's a bit rubbish and completely underqualified, but that's sort of the point. He's a brash young kid who's told "right, you're in charge now." He's in no way suited to any form of responsibility, has no idea what he's doing, doesn't even want the job... but tough. That's life. He's in charge and the only thing that's going to change it is the previous guy miraculously coming back from the dead. Suck it up and get on with it.

And if that's not a metaphor for the shitstorm known as getting older, then I don't know.

[EDIT] Wasn't TF:TM being written/produced before Thundercats aired? Can we chalk that one down to parallel evolution? Obviously season 3 was being churned out after TC was public conciousness but I'm in a chirpy generous mood.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-10-02, 05:42 PM
Y'know my favourite part about Metrodome's season 3 DVDs?

The way they structure a gap between Starscream's Ghost and Ghost in the Machine so that we can have Surprise Party, Madman's Paradise and Nightmare Planet back to back.

I might be on the brandy again.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-10-04, 08:45 AM
AND THIS TIME NO POWER IN THE UNIVERSE CAN STOP ME.

So awesome that I can overlook the continuity error with Dark Awakening, the bit where they say the Quintessons built Prime in the first place, the wacky roll-call sequence, the inconsistencies in the infected Transformers' behaviour, the plethora of really ****ing bizarre animation errors and the jarringly edited version of The Touch.

Shame they ruined the whole thing by sticking a "from the files of Teletraan 2: Ultra Magnus" clip on the end though. Talk about killing the mood.

There will be no war today.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-04, 07:46 PM
I give a pass to the odd behaviour of the virus as we're told what it does by a metallurgist who comes to the conclusion it's a hate virus after three seconds of tests. The fact it makes people glow bright red is surely the most unusual effect it has yet no one ever comments on it.

It really is a kick in the balls to Rodimus' leadership that even before the crisis kicks off everyone seems really keen on the idea of getting the old guy back. Look at how excited Sky Lynx is!

I used to be able to do the roll call from memory unprompted.

It's kind of a shame the show didn't end there, everyone shaking hands would have been a nice upbeat final. Indeed, Optimus is getting along so well with Galvatron at the end there he happily leaves him in Metroplex whilst he takes the boys out for a drive.

Tetsuro
2015-10-04, 09:07 PM
It's kind of a shame the show didn't end there, everyone shaking hands would have been a nice upbeat final.
True, but Rebirth's finale with the new golden age of Cybertron while the villains fly off to fight the heroes another day isn't too bad either.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-10-04, 09:38 PM
It really is a kick in the balls to Rodimus' leadership that even before the crisis kicks off everyone seems really keen on the idea of getting the old guy back. Look at how excited Sky Lynx is!

I kind of wish the resolution had involved Rodimus accepting his role as leader, with Optimus just hanging about in the background. But it would have been a bit difficult to pull off with Op having just bailed them all out.

Tricky one.

In hindsight "no power in the universe can stop me" is possibly a bit of a psychopathic thing for the all time king of the good guys to say as soon as he wakes up. Hrm.

Tetsuro
2015-10-04, 10:47 PM
I kind of wish the resolution had involved Rodimus accepting his role as leader, with Optimus just hanging about in the background. But it would have been a bit difficult to pull off with Op having just bailed them all out.
It's been a while since I watched TROOP, but they don't explicitly state they're going to retrieve his body to revive him and shove him back into his old shoes, do they? Considering they're just getting his corpse, I at least assumed Rodimus wanted to give the old man a proper funeral this time around.

Unicron
2015-10-04, 11:25 PM
It's been a while since I watched TROOP, but they don't explicitly state they're going to retrieve his body to revive him and shove him back into his old shoes, do they? Considering they're just getting his corpse, I at least assumed Rodimus wanted to give the old man a proper funeral this time around.

That was Rodimus' reasoning at least. He wanted to retrieve Optimus body so they could it somewhere where he could rest in peace.
I suppose it's possible, but unlikely, Magnus and the others went along with Rodimus' plan of walking into an obvious trap so they could retrieve the body in hopes of reviving him and kicking Rodimus back to Hot Rod.

Cliffjumper
2015-10-04, 11:37 PM
In hindsight "no power in the universe can stop me" is possibly a bit of a psychopathic thing for the all time king of the good guys to say as soon as he wakes up. Hrm.

IIRC it's prefaced by "This time...", which you'd think would make everyone a bit more nervous as the last time he nearly wiped out the Autobot fleet and it took a ****ing planet full of missiles to take him down. They could at least have asked him if he was evil this time before making him magically indestructible.

Rodimus' problem is Season 3's problem. Sometimes he's quite nuanced and it's like it's a proper show with characterisation and stuff. Other times he's generic leader guy and other times he's a whiny little bitch who needs a slap (generally when he just moans for no reason whatsoever, without any sort of prompting). It's all over the place.

Optimus coming back is still just so BIG, though. It's still fresh from the days when you didn't assume he'd be coming back anyway at some point and at the time he was still pretty much Optimus Prime without the diluting of there being a new Optimus Prime out every couple of years.

I'm always torn on whether it should have ended because I've always kind-of liked Rebirth for its' repeated, insistent blend of outright stupidity and Magnus just deciding to assassinate Galvatron (seriously, just give the guy the ****ing job, I'd let myself get killed if I was stuck on a planet with Daniel, Arcee, Blurr and Wreck-Gar).

But Optimus is really shit in it. Like, really shit. He does nothing at Autobot City, he lets Galvatron retake Cybertron with a handful of discontinued toys (okay, he didn't know Hot Rod was going to take half the population of Cybertron to see what Scourge was up to, but still), he buggers off to Nebulos when things get tough and he hasn't got a ****ing clue the whole way through. It's like he's got a concussion. I don't think he even fires his rifle, whereas in TRoOP he's smart, inspiring and dishes out gunishment to that spider with a cool pose.

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-10-05, 12:44 AM
Batman. They did too many episodes of Simpsons to have been axed

The show that they should have gotten the axe was Exo-Squad that series had a great story and some great voice acting but man it had some real crappy animation.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-10-05, 08:57 AM
IIRC it's prefaced by "This time...", which you'd think would make everyone a bit more nervous as the last time he nearly wiped out the Autobot fleet and it took a ****ing planet full of missiles to take him down. They could at least have asked him if he was evil this time before making him magically indestructible.

Especially as he's just been resurrected by one of the guys responsible for his previous revival...

That would have been a hell of a twist ending. Proper Angelus "I can't believe you fell for it again" stuff.

I'm always torn on whether it should have ended because I've always kind-of liked Rebirth for its' repeated, insistent blend of outright stupidity and Magnus just deciding to assassinate Galvatron (seriously, just give the guy the ****ing job, I'd let myself get killed if I was stuck on a planet with Daniel, Arcee, Blurr and Wreck-Gar).

Yeah, Return of OP is a nice way to round out the series. Rebirth is just sort of an encore coda type thing.

But personally I couldn't ditch the Headmasters stuff though. While I saw RoOP as a kid, it wasn't among the episodes my dad copied for me, whereas Rebirth was. So that's the one that I've seen 237 times and is hardwired into my brain.

I'm very much looking forward to revisiting it this evening and pre-empting 90% of the ridiculous dialogue.

"ALL OF THEM!"
"I think the name Aimless suits you better."
"They ARE the Hive!"

There's a part of me that genuinely hopes Cerebros will just stick to his guns this time and let the entire universe crumble on a point of stubborn dick principle though.

We shall see, Galvatron. We shall see.

Red Dave Prime
2015-10-05, 03:39 PM
Wow, I only saw rebirth twice years ago as a good and that final zarak line is just about all I can remember with any clarity. Well that and the awful animation of scorponok vs fort max

Tetsuro
2015-10-05, 04:35 PM
There's a part of me that genuinely hopes Cerebros will just stick to his guns this time and let the entire universe crumble on a point of stubborn dick principle though.
It doesn't help that we already had another Autobot with the exact same personality in The Ultimate Weapon.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-10-05, 04:39 PM
I can only dream of a world where the fate of the universe rests on First Aid's idealism.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-10-05, 05:26 PM
Right, what's the ****ing deal meant to be with Punch-Counterpunch anyway?

Did he just truck up at Decepticon HQ one day and go "Hey Galvatron, my name's Counterpunch, I'm the counterpart to that Autobot dude Punch. I'll totally help you deal with him" and Galvatron just went "Derp derp derp I'm crazy this sounds like a totally legit thing welcome aboard I am king penguin"?

Also massive dick points to Optimus Prime for the bit where he explains what the Plasma Energy Chamber is to Ultra Magnus, along with the part where every Autobot leader is charged with guarding it. Just glossing over the whole part where he left Magnus in charge and didn't bother mentioning it. Top management skills all round, really. This is what happens when you don't do a proper handover.

Warcry
2015-10-05, 05:30 PM
Rodimus' problem is Season 3's problem. Sometimes he's quite nuanced and it's like it's a proper show with characterisation and stuff. Other times he's generic leader guy and other times he's a whiny little bitch who needs a slap (generally when he just moans for no reason whatsoever, without any sort of prompting). It's all over the place.
It's really a shame that season three wasn't made a few years later. By the time the 90s rolled around the production staff of kids' shows seemed to care a whole lot more than they did in the 80s. They had the necessary ingredients to actually make a pretty good show with the more interesting season three cast, if only the writers had been a bit less disinterested in the whole thing.

Unfortunately, while it seems like Flint Dille actually cared about making a decent product, from the writer interviews that pop up every now and then it's pretty clear that he was the only one.

Optimus coming back is still just so BIG, though. It's still fresh from the days when you didn't assume he'd be coming back anyway at some point and at the time he was still pretty much Optimus Prime without the diluting of there being a new Optimus Prime out every couple of years.
It was a big thing for me as a kid, but it wasn't really a surprise. I came into things a bit late and only saw the cartoon on reruns, but I'm pretty sure I knew about the Powermaster toy already (if I didn't already own it) before I saw TROOP. I definitely believed that they'd brought him back to be a Powermaster, and didn't figure out until I was an adult that he was back in the cartoon more than a year before that toy came out.

I was a bit confused (and still am, really) that he was brought back for non-commercial reasons.

But Optimus is really shit in it. Like, really shit. He does nothing at Autobot City, he lets Galvatron retake Cybertron with a handful of discontinued toys (okay, he didn't know Hot Rod was going to take half the population of Cybertron to see what Scourge was up to, but still), he buggers off to Nebulos when things get tough and he hasn't got a ****ing clue the whole way through. It's like he's got a concussion. I don't think he even fires his rifle, whereas in TRoOP he's smart, inspiring and dishes out gunishment to that spider with a cool pose.
Rebirth kind of scuppers the "Optimus was so great and Rodimus was so terrible" argument, isn't it? I mean for all his faults, Rodimus Prime reconquered Cybertron and held it against the Decepticons for a whole year against constant aggression from the 'Cons and Quints. Then Optimus comes back and next week Galvatron is conquering the planet like it's nothing.

Maybe the fact that Rodimus was an ass forced the other Autobots to actually try for once instead of slacking off and relying on their leader to save the day?

Brendocon 2.0
2015-10-05, 05:37 PM
I was a bit confused (and still am, really) that he was brought back for non-commercial reasons.

Well to be fair they killed him off for commercial reasons and it didn't really work, so maybe they were hoping that doing the reverse would I don't know.*

Episode 2 of Rebirth is just a twenty minute version of that scene in Roll for It where Chip controls Prowl. Or was it Bluestreak? I don't know.

I swear a third of this saga's runtime is "next episode" previews and "previously" recaps.

[EDIT] Just looking at air dates here: http://www.soundwavesoblivion.com/episodelists/episodesg1.html
Given that FFoD dropped less than a month after the Movie was released, I dare say the bulk of S3 was in the can before Sunbow/Hasbro realised what they'd done. So yeah, desperate bid to redress the balance.

Tetsuro
2015-10-05, 06:06 PM
[EDIT] Just looking at air dates here: http://www.soundwavesoblivion.com/episodelists/episodesg1.html
Given that FFoD dropped less than a month after the Movie was released, I dare say the bulk of S3 was in the can before Sunbow/Hasbro realised what they'd done. So yeah, desperate bid to redress the balance.
The fact that TROOP aired almost five months after Dark Awakening does support that notion. In fact, didn't they shuffle that episode to the end of the schedule specifically so they could add the blurb at the end?

Actually that's another thing that never really occured to me before, mostly because I didn't see the cartoon until I got it on DVD and I always watched it in production order (or whichever order made the most sense anyway); by moving Dark Awakening to the end, it really makes Rodimus look like he didn't develop at all over the third season, because he's still eager to get the old man back and lose the mantle of leadership.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-10-05, 06:12 PM
The fact that TROOP aired almost five months after Dark Awakening does support that notion. In fact, didn't they shuffle that episode to the end of the schedule specifically so they could add the blurb at the end?

They added a repeat showing with the coda voiceover, yeah.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-05, 07:46 PM
It's a pity Galvatron didn't hit on the whole Plasma Energy Chamber things a few months earlier, he could have just wandered into the room and half inched it with no fuss or bother when he was left alone in Autobot City at the end of the previous episode.

In terms of Punch, don't forget that up until recently Galvatron's troops contained a bunch of guys who look just like Scourge (are they on holiday in this one?) and previously he had five other guys who looked like Starscream. This guy coming up and going "I may look like this other fellow facing backwards but he's totally my counterpart" probably makes sense in that context.



It was a big thing for me as a kid, but it wasn't really a surprise. I came into things a bit late and only saw the cartoon on reruns, but I'm pretty sure I knew about the Powermaster toy already (if I didn't already own it) before I saw TROOP. I definitely believed that they'd brought him back to be a Powermaster, and didn't figure out until I was an adult that he was back in the cartoon more than a year before that toy came out.

The video didn't come out in the UK until the same time as the PM toy as a comically misleading tie-in (at least some season 3 had been on satellite prior to this, but only rich knobs would have seen that) and I almost certainly wouldn't have seen it before having the toy/seeing him in the comic.

Of course, the title gives it away a bit as well.

But the story does have...something doesn't it. It genuinely feels like an event, maybe because (as contrived as the virus is) everyone, heroes and villains, is put into such a desperate seeming situation.

I think it also helps they'd kept him dead for so long. They even mostly avoided the obvious flashback/time travel/Obi Wan Matrix ghost thing. He has one special guest star episode (which is terrifying) and, what, two very brief ghost cameos?

I was a bit confused (and still am, really) that he was brought back for non-commercial reasons.

Desperation. It's more a surprise they didn't bring him back sooner in the comic. Mind, his death there never seems to have had the same impact even taking into account how stupid it is. Is this down to Bob's clear disinterest in Prime (even before his death he's mainly relegated to cameos in each issue) meaning readers weren't quite as invested in him or does Cullen really make the difference?


[EDIT] Just looking at air dates here: http://www.soundwavesoblivion.com/ep...pisodesg1.html
Given that FFoD dropped less than a month after the Movie was released, I dare say the bulk of S3 was in the can before Sunbow/Hasbro realised what they'd done. So yeah, desperate bid to redress the balance.

According to Christ McFeely on the (generally excellent) UK DVD commentary to The Movie, they actually started voice recording on season 3 before they did that for the film (which is why Welker's Galvatron is so different to Nimoy's, they were just happy to let the later do what he liked rather than hold him to the already finished sessions).

Certainly it's hard to see Dark Awakening happening if they'd realised what they'd done. Considering TRoOP was likely thrown together very quickly to try and turn things round it's amazing it holds together even slightly.

Tetsuro
2015-10-05, 08:14 PM
Desperation. It's more a surprise they didn't bring him back sooner in the comic. Mind, his death there never seems to have had the same impact even taking into account how stupid it is. Is this down to Bob's clear disinterest in Prime (even before his death he's mainly relegated to cameos in each issue) meaning readers weren't quite as invested in him or does Cullen really make the difference?
Well I'm just gonna make wild guesses and say it's probably down to to the general attitude towards the comics being treated as a sideshow while the cartoon is the main attraction (except in the UK obviously).

This is certainly true for a lot of other 80's properties. I mean, whenever you discuss someone about nostalgia they always bring up the cartoons of MASK or Thundercats or TMNT and such, but hardly anyone ever tells you about how important the comics of those franchises were to them.

Then again, it could simply be down to the comic being more...well, hardcore than the cartoon, so Prime's death simply comes across as much less shocking because the comic had already established itself as being pretty ruthless as to how some of the characters were treated. Remember how long Perceptor, Blaster and others had spent being not much more than a bunch of faces strung up on a wall.

Unicron
2015-10-05, 08:27 PM
Well I'm just gonna make wild guesses and say it's probably down to to the general attitude towards the comics being treated as a sideshow while the cartoon is the main attraction (except in the UK obviously).

It may have to do with comics and their trend of killing someone off only to resurrect them some years later. Prime's death and eventual revival is just another of those in comics. In cartoons at the time, it was a novel thing

Tetsuro
2015-10-05, 09:46 PM
Exactly, and that sort of thing had happened as early as the finale of issue #4. What happened to Optimus Prime in Afterdeath! was only mildly worse.

And I just remembered the bit with the floppy disc and had to look up release date, Afterdeath! came out a month after the movie's release, think that bit was added in response to the reaction to the movie?

Dead Man Wade
2015-10-05, 10:28 PM
It may have to do with comics and their trend of killing someone off only to resurrect them some years later. Prime's death and eventual revival is just another of those in comics. In cartoons at the time, it was a novel thing

Except comics started doing that later. Before the death of Superman, it was a lot less prevalent. Comics had deaths, certainly, but resurrection happened a lot more rarely.

Cliffjumper
2015-10-05, 11:25 PM
Yeh, in the eighties and before deaths in comics were either hoaxes or whatever revealed to be such on about the third page of the next issue or were proper (which is why they tended to not happen a lot), which was why things like Scourge got such hype (and basically why What If? and the like existed). Used to be a whole pile of guys - Bucky, Thunderbird, Swordsman, etc. - who there were basically editorial mandates against reviving.

Regarding Prime, I really think it's as simple as Hasbro completely underestimating just how much the character meant to kids, which in a way was understandable given how new the idea of an audience actually getting that much affection for a toy tie-in would have been. They were probably kicking themselves they didn't do a Duke on him as he actually takes a bit of a backseat in a lot of later S2 episodes so there'd still have been plenty of time to feature new toys while keeping him in play without actually having to change TF:TM significantly*. Which I think would again have been the plan if there'd been a genuine push for Season 4 - Optimus turning up every handful of episodes in an overall commander way.

What's curious is Convoy-mad Japan seem desperate to kill him off again, which is very odd when they then write Rodimus out by just sending him on some hazily-defined house-hunting mission and just never, ever mentioning him again. But then if that was the least of Headmaster's problems...

The problem with Rodimus is that the theory is better than the reality and as ever with the cartoon there's just too many people who don't give a shit involved, as Warcry says, so analysis will always be confounded. Scourge is another example - there are two or three scripts that develop him as a treacherous sod but elsewhere he's just a slightly grumpy Decepticon who tends to **** up a lot.

* This is actually basically what happens with Victory Saber in Zone if you think about it; he gets ****ed up and sends the new toys to do all the business and later gives Dai Atlas the job without actually dying.

Unicron
2015-10-06, 12:00 AM
Except comics started doing that later. Before the death of Superman, it was a lot less prevalent. Comics had deaths, certainly, but resurrection happened a lot more rarely.

So I was a little off on when comic book coffins got their revolving doors installed. I remember JEan Grey came back sometime in the mid-80s and assumed revivals were in full swing by then. oops

Dead Man Wade
2015-10-06, 01:06 AM
Jean Grey is something of an exception, as Marvel wanted to bring her back, but refused to do so until there was some way to absolve her of all the deaths she caused as Phoenix. Then some fan (Kurt Busiek, I want to say?) suggested the cloned body/bottom of a lake twist.

Anyway, the defensiveness is slightly unnecessary. Your point hinged on misinformation, and correcting that was not intended to be petty minutiae or an attack.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-10-06, 07:48 AM
Jean Grey is something of an exception, as Marvel wanted to bring her back, but refused to do so until there was some way to absolve her of all the deaths she caused as Phoenix. Then some fan (Kurt Busiek, I want to say?) suggested the cloned body/bottom of a lake twist.

Yeah, it was Busiek.

Dead Man Wade
2015-10-06, 10:35 AM
That's what I thought, but I knew as soon as I said "Busiek. It was Busiek.", it would turn out to be Waid or someone.

another tf fan
2015-10-06, 04:29 PM
As lame as this idea might sound I would love a return to G1 in some form. A redux period-piece set in 1984 and written for a 30 year-old audience.

Give it lots of period references like Ronnie Reagan, the Cold War, the '84 Olympics, careful set designs and period correct extras.

Then write a dozen scripts of reality based political drama about the world of Humans/Autobots plotting, setting up and destroying the deception menace. Maybe a U.S./Autobots alliance and a USSR/Decepticon alliance. Use a lot of espionage and camouflage and make the whole thing a proxy war for the West V East.

Get nitty-gritty with the political drama and save the actual fighting for the last two episodes.

But sell the period correct universe and detail that hindsight gives.

Yep. That's what I want.

Cliffjumper
2015-10-06, 05:05 PM
I'd actually love to see a straight-G1 period reboot in some form or another; there's still a lot of unexplored potential in the concept and it'd avoid a lot of the embarrassments of, say, the IDW universe where the mythos is reinvented for the 21st century by a man in his forties.

Warcry
2015-10-06, 05:44 PM
Then write a dozen scripts of reality based political drama about the world of Humans/Autobots plotting, setting up and destroying the deception menace. Maybe a U.S./Autobots alliance and a USSR/Decepticon alliance. Use a lot of espionage and camouflage and make the whole thing a proxy war for the West V East.
I think that's a very America-centric take on things, and I don't think that automatically teaming up the good guys with "us" and the bad guys with "them" really does the idea justice.

Considering the Decepticons' general dog-eat-dog, might-makes-right attitude to the world, the communists would probably be very wary of them. Megatron is more Mussolini or Hitler than he is Stalin, after all, and we know how splendidly fascists and communists get along. I could see a lot of tin-pot third-world strongmen flocking to the Decepticon banner but if anything the USSR would be even more hostile to them than the West.

In general it's a great idea, though. The thing that interests me most about it, probably, is how much the world would change. Showing us a realistic first-contact scenario set in 1984 is great, but even better would be seeing what 2015 looks like after the Transformers threw the world off of its' axis.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-10-06, 05:51 PM
Yeah, there's no logical reason (beyond "America good guys woooo") why, if a race of alien robots suddenly appeared on Earth, Russia would immediately look at the faction who want to enslave us all and drain our resources and say "well those are the guys we want to team up with!"

Because no Earth government would look at that faction and say that.

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-10-06, 06:18 PM
Yeah, there's no logical reason (beyond "America good guys woooo") why, if a race of alien robots suddenly appeared on Earth, Russia would immediately look at the faction who want to enslave us all and drain our resources and say "well those are the guys we want to team up with!"

Because no Earth government would look at that faction and say that.

Welllllllll, there is Cameron.

Unicron
2015-10-06, 06:44 PM
Yeah, there's no logical reason (beyond "America good guys woooo") why, if a race of alien robots suddenly appeared on Earth, Russia would immediately look at the faction who want to enslave us all and drain our resources and say "well those are the guys we want to team up with!"

Because no Earth government would look at that faction and say that.

True, but it would also depend on how open the aliens are with the enslaving/resource stripping plans. If that motive isn't known, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to see Russia teaming up with them because they oppose the guys who just teamed up with America.

Cliffjumper
2015-10-06, 07:04 PM
I dunno, the idea of 2015 being the arrival point to me because 2015 is pretty disgusting and a lot of the population are just numb to anything, with things like water on Mars just sliding straight out of the population's mind as soon as the next thing comes along. I've got a feeling that this planet's first contact with alien life is going to be a lot more meh than films portray it as; it's changed even since 2007. If the Autobots scanned the World Wide Web now they'd probably kill us all.

I do seriously think that current tech doesn't actually jibe that well with an interesting Transformers story; the only reason ROTF got away with the idea of something like Mission City being covered up was by playing it for laughs and it being six years ago. That whole angle would be obliterated by smart phones and TBH if Transformers could hack into wireless networks there's basically no need for them to contact anyone about anything. Even the '07 film had that problem of the Decepticons' plan being needlessly violent when they could have hacked a Paypal account, bought the glasses from Sam and just had them shipped somewhere Frenzy could pick them up, and if you were doing it realistically you wouldn't be able to ignore something like that.

The eighties would I feel give a good balance for stuff like that; no internet as such and relatively few computers, cameras etc. meaning more need for TF/human physical encounters but enough media and world infrastructure to keep things interesting. Not sure about the idea of Cold War alliances with opposing factions but the Cold War would be a good setting, with the USA/USSR's mistrust of each other providing a good canvas.

I'd certainly say the idea of a more political, adult look at G1 would make an interesting Elseworlds series or something for Netflix or similar; with the right handling giving it a human POV could work, with the TFs rarely glimpsed and their precise motivations kept a mystery.

If such a thing was to happen I'd really, really love to see the back of the human identification figures - not human characters, but humans who befriend the Autobots are a kids like us at home. I get it for G1, I get it for the movies but I think it was a very, very bad idea for IDW to go for it with Jubilee, Mulder Jr. and mechanic guy and contributed to the Furman material's silly ethos of pretending to be grown up but actually falling into the same old pitfalls.

Between Sunbow, Marvel, IDW, Bay and so on a lot of the elements needed have been put out there but nothing's tied them together.

Warcry
2015-10-06, 07:09 PM
True, but it would also depend on how open the aliens are with the enslaving/resource stripping plans. If that motive isn't known, then it wouldn't be unreasonable to see Russia teaming up with them because they oppose the guys who just teamed up with America.
Though that's not wrong in and of itself, I think the problem with that logic is that Optimus Prime would never choose sides in an alien civil war. If the 'Cons took a side and the Autobots needed to step in to stop the world from being overrun, sure. But if freedom is the right of all sentient beings then surely that right of self-determination extends to the species level as well and the Autobots shouldn't be the deciding factor in native ideological conflicts?

Which, yes, does say something about how Movie Prime's priorities differ from the G1 version.

Yeah, there's no logical reason (beyond "America good guys woooo") why, if a race of alien robots suddenly appeared on Earth, Russia would immediately look at the faction who want to enslave us all and drain our resources and say "well those are the guys we want to team up with!"

Because no Earth government would look at that faction and say that.
I actually think some Earth governments would sign up for that program. Dictatorships whose leaders are mostly interested in their own enrichment won't care who's footing the bill as long as they get their slice. If the Decepticons are willing to pay more for the right to enslave the population and despoil the resources than their current corporate sponsors are, some of them would take the deal. I could see some single-issue extremist groups signing up as well, becoming Decepticon client groups in exchange for the promise that the Decepticons will be enslaving/destroying their enemies.

I mean, if Starscream rolled in and said "Hey, if you give us the output from your mines and oilfields, we'll use it to crush the Western imperialist dogs/Communist ideologues that have been oppressing you so much", you don't think at least some countries would sign on?

Brendocon 2.0
2015-10-06, 07:14 PM
Yeah, there is that.

My brain went immediately to the overt shameless 80s toon Decepticons who didn't have the nous to try and be subtle about their intentions.

Allowing room for misrepresentation of intent, then yeah sure.

That's one hell of a ****ing reimagining though. ;)

Never really did understand where they found Dr Arkeville and exactly how he came to be so ****ing naive.

Cliffjumper
2015-10-06, 07:21 PM
...could actually work in the context of a Cold War arms race. Both sides arrive on Earth for whatever reason; Autobots publically revealed however in America; Decepticons lying about intentions roll up in Russia claiming the Autobots are the bad guys and have thrown in with the USA, USSR signs them up as a counter-force.

Skyquake87
2015-10-06, 07:22 PM
Mabye Arkeville's metal hat was actually like in Tripods and a 'cap' that gave him a level of autonomy but didn't make him question so much.

Or he was just a little sh*t after enriching himself with the technology and science stuff an alliance with the 'cons provided.

Thinking of this stuff about alliances with superior powers etc has just made me think about the blackly comical situation in Syria, with the Russians and Americans flying around bombing the sh*t out of everything.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-06, 07:54 PM
At least in terms of the pilot, it would actually make sense for a government (East or West) to a deal with the Decepticons. The amount of energy they steal across More Than Meets the Eye is basically small potatoes, it would make sense for someone to go "We'll just give you this in exchange for SPACE guns and anti gravity and that shrinking thing you do".

Indeed, the Autobots do seem to have such a deal in place anyway, Earth technology is clearly much more advanced by 2005 than it would have been without their presence so presumably cartoon Prime doesn't have Marvel/Bay Prime's reluctance to share out his technology (cartoon Prime also clearly favours America even if it's not entirely an exclusive deal, each US City we see in season 3 looks like Blade Runner whilst all Moscow has managed to do is move the Kremlin into a different building).

It's easy to imagine a quid pro quo for "Yeah, you let me and my mates set up a city and we'll give you good shit. And we'll protect you from the Decepticons as well! Ignore the fact the Decepticons are only still bothering you because we shot down their spaceship as they were leaving at the end of the pilot after they'd taken all they wanted. Nice planet you've got here... be a shame if anything happened to it".

Tetsuro
2015-10-10, 01:22 AM
I saw this bit on wikipedia which I don't recall seeing on tfwiki:

David Wise, who wrote much of Omega Supreme's backstory in the original animated series, has described Omega Supreme as a "stupid character" which was based on a toy that was "completely illogical," and that as such he felt it would be amusing to give the character a complex past.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-10, 09:44 AM
Well, technically he's not wrong. Though really it was the way the cartoon writers treated Omega (having his entire body turn up wherever the rocket went) that was illogical rather than the toy itself.

Cliffjumper
2015-10-10, 11:49 AM
I saw this on Wikipedia that I don't recall seeing on TFWiki:

perspective

inflatable dalek
2015-10-10, 06:44 PM
Omega Supreme suffered from a perspective problem in the comic, was he getting smaller or just further away?

Cliffjumper
2015-10-10, 07:29 PM
Older. Though it wasn't quite as bad as making a big fuss about stapling Cerebros in between Galen and Fort Max and then just drawing him the same basic size afterwards most of the time anyway.

Death's Head
2015-10-10, 08:21 PM
Indeed. If this is Fort Max post-enlargement (phwoar, etc) how bloody small was he before?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/Alexio/RobinSmithGrimlockOptimusFortMax_zpsztulecdn.jpg

Cliffjumper
2015-10-10, 08:35 PM
The best way of handling it would have been to make Hardhead, Point Blank et al. Minibot-sized when the two groups of Autobots met up. Bob did weirder shit than that every issue by that period.

EDIT: And I do love the way Grimlock's just holding his gun in that briefing - y'know, in case Hoist kicks the **** off or Ironhide threatens to remember that exactly the same thing happened in Target 2006 or something. Top tracing, Robin, I could never get the paper to lay right on the TPB.

Death's Head
2015-10-11, 10:01 AM
He's probably just intensely stressed at the fact that the Underbase saga is somehow going on at the exact same time as the Time Wars.

Cliffjumper
2015-10-11, 01:02 PM
Maybe that's where they all run off to when things get crazy at the end of Time Wars? "Swoop, Grimlock - with me! To New York!"

EDIT: Talking of moderately amusing Time Wars art I've always loved the way that this frame makes it look like Galvatron's distracted Carnivac by making him play fetch with Twin Twist's head.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-11, 08:07 PM
Indeed. If this is Fort Max post-enlargement (phwoar, etc) how bloody small was he before?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v335/Alexio/RobinSmithGrimlockOptimusFortMax_zpsztulecdn.jpg



Still, Prime is all ready to shoot the ceiling and Fort Max has his kung fu chop lined up.

The odd thing with Maximus is that they clearly knew how the toy worked when they did Headmasters (as poor old Frank Springer keeps drawing Cerebrus in the wrong place), so I'm not sure why they didn't just introduce him there as a drone used to get his head up to the right size.

Death's Head
2015-10-12, 01:28 AM
Considering the whole 'enlargement' thing (snigger etc), it makes you wonder if Cerebros' character model was originally meant to be used in Headmasters, with the larger, city-sized body finally getting an outing in the proper series. I don't think Max uses his base mode during the limited series, does he?

If that wasn't the case, it bloody should have been. One of the few things the Rebirth did a bit better, I think.

Death's Head
2015-10-12, 01:32 AM
Maybe that's where they all run off to when things get crazy at the end of Time Wars? "Swoop, Grimlock - with me! To New York!"

EDIT: Talking of moderately amusing Time Wars art I've always loved the way that this frame makes it look like Galvatron's distracted Carnivac by making him play fetch with Twin Twist's head.

Rodimus's utter lack of shit-giving is pretty funny as well. It's like he's watching a fight erupt in a pub while he's safely upstairs.

inflatable dalek
2015-11-01, 08:32 PM
Watched Nightmare Planet for Halloween last night. It does feel like a really good episode that's had all the bits between the set pieces edited out so that it makes no sense (and winds up short, it's the only episode with two of those Secret Files things isn't it?), though them deciding not to bother with the "Escape from jail" stuff is actually quite funny. Plus Springer and Razorclaw are great fun, I especially love how the later says "Goooooooooold".

It's Headstrong and his attempt to remind Giant Galvatron who he is that steals the show though.

Tetsuro
2015-11-01, 11:45 PM
It's Headstrong and his attempt to remind Giant Galvatron who he is that steals the show though.
And you would almost blame him for being that stupid, but then you remember it's Headstrong.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-11-23, 08:09 PM
Doing Headmasters now.

I'm three minutes into the first episode and immediately regretting this decision.

Tetsuro
2015-11-23, 08:38 PM
Doing Headmasters now.

I'm three minutes into the first episode and immediately regretting this decision.
Funny thing, I absolutely despised Headmasters the first time around, but it's kinda grown on me since.

But that's probably just because Victory lowered the bar so much.

inflatable dalek
2015-11-23, 08:50 PM
I don't mind Headmasters.

Dub for the win of course.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-11-23, 08:55 PM
Yeah, I've only seen this once before. I got to the point where Fortress decides that Wheelie's more important than the Master Sword and couldn't take anymore.

That time out was the dub, which at least had comedy value to distract from the plot. This time out is the Metrodome subbed version and is "holy ****" head-through-the-table "you actually ****ing what" bad.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-11-23, 10:53 PM
"Well Optimus Prime died again and there's absolutely nothing we can do about it. It's very sad. Sorry what? Oh yeah of course we can rebuild Blaster in a new colour."

Rodimus definitely did that on purpose.

Oh and hey look, Battle Beasts.

Tetsuro
2015-11-24, 05:05 PM
Yeah, I've only seen this once before. I got to the point where Fortress decides that Wheelie's more important than the Master Sword and couldn't take anymore.
That's not even the part that bothered me the most - it's the fact that he knew there was a freakin' rescue attempt in the progress, and he still didn't try to buy Chromedome some time by swapping the giant floppy disk for a fake.

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-11-24, 08:31 PM
Welllllllll, there is Cameron.

And all of the GOP Presidential Candidates which is turning into a fascist, even Nazi-like party of racist Bible thumpers with Trump now going full fascist with his anti-Mexican and anti-Muslim stances. Honestly I would take Cameron over any of the GOP nutballs.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-11-25, 08:30 PM
I'm not sure what the worst part of this series is - Daniel being written like a five year old or literally every other single thing.

Gotta admit, never saw it coming that the Star TV dub was the only thing that made this shit even remotely watchable.

inflatable dalek
2015-11-25, 08:52 PM
The subs aren't actually that different from the dub to be honest, put both on at once and they'll be identical for long stretches bar the odd bonkers moment. They're both basically literal translations without much flair. It's the performances that make the dub, God bless them.

Headmasters, unlike the other two which use fan made subs, also has some mistakes in it the Star TV people would have been embarrassed of. They never accidentally slapped the wrong script on large chunks of an episode for starts.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-11-25, 08:57 PM
The subs aren't actually that different from the dub to be honest, put both on at once and they'll be identical for long stretches bar the odd bonkers moment. They're both basically literal translations without much flair. It's the performances that make the dub, God bless them.

Gonna be honest, didn't realise the dubs were on this set. I tried cycling through the audio tracks on the first episode and the only non-Japanese I could find was the commentary.

This is now much more tolerable. I mean it's still terrible, but at least it now has comedy-value audio.

Headmasters, unlike the other two which use fan made subs, also has some mistakes in it the Star TV people would have been embarrassed of. They never accidentally slapped the wrong script on large chunks of an episode for starts.

Yeah, I seem to remember that Mr McFeely went through and proofread them all, corrected all the mistakes and then they went ahead and just used the unproofed versions anyway. The swines.

inflatable dalek
2015-11-25, 09:08 PM
Gonna be honest, didn't realise the dubs were on this set. I tried cycling through the audio tracks on the first episode and the only non-Japanese I could find was the commentary.

This is now much more tolerable. I mean it's still terrible, but at least it now has comedy-value audio.

Be warned, Headmasters is the only one to have them though (I think the Oz sets have it on selected episodes for Masterforce and all of Victory).



Yeah, I seem to remember that Mr McFeely went through and proofread them all, corrected all the mistakes and then they went ahead and just used the unproofed versions anyway. The swines.

At least they haven't gone as insane as the American release which apparently fill the subs with IDW references.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-11-25, 09:41 PM
At least they haven't gone as insane as the American release which apparently fill the subs with IDW references.

It doesn't really make much difference if he's a Phase Six Officer or Ninja Consultant, nobody recognising him because he's gone a bit shadowy is still a crock of shit.

Tetsuro
2015-11-26, 03:11 AM
Yeah, I seem to remember that Mr McFeely went through and proofread them all, corrected all the mistakes and then they went ahead and just used the unproofed versions anyway. The swines.
And what's worse, Madman didn't fix them either, so R4 is no-go if you want fixed subs. So basically you're stuck with three choices for subs; these, the ones with IDW terminology painfully shoehorned into them...

...and the TV-Nihon ones.

I'd rather just stick to the broken ones.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-11-30, 09:18 PM
Right, so this whole Cybertron gets blown up thing.

Vector Sigma, the all-knowing font of everything, decides to come up with a super-strong alloy. Surely knowing what would result from it. I think the Plasma Energy Chamber idea was probably a better play for it to make. I mean if it wanted Rodimus to just **** off and explore space, why not just tell him?

"Fortress Maximus, you're in charge now. I'm going for a walk, I may be some time. But I'm taking the Matrix with me, because **** you. Arcee, sorry, I know how you feel about me, but no girls allowed. You stay here and babysit Wheelie and Daniel."

BUT ANYWAY.

Scorponok. What the ****'s with him being in shadow all the time, regardless of light source? Is it a thing he can do? Why does he do it when it's only him and the other Decepticon Headmasters? There's no point him hiding his identity from them. Nor Galvatron. Nor anyone, to be perfectly ****ing honest.

It's not as if he's secretly one of the other pieces on the board and he needs to preserve his true identity. And it's not as if there's any benefit in hiding him from the audience beyond "ooh, this guy's a bit mysterious."

I mean at least Fort Max's giant head mode made sort of sense. "I like to control the spaceship in this mode". Yeah, it kills the big reveal later on, but at least there's an internal logic insomuch as it's a thing he'd plausibly do.

Scorponok being in shadow all the time makes no sense from an internal continuity perspective or from a narrative standpoint.

**** EVERYTHING.

Yes, I'm still only about ten episodes into this mess. I'm not happy.

Cliffjumper
2015-11-30, 11:47 PM
I found Headmasters was at it's best when S1/2 Autobot cars were just making random background cameos. The rule of thumb is the more central the Headmasters are the more utterly intolerable every moment of the series is, so by about episode 10 it's peaked.

Tetsuro
2015-12-01, 05:40 AM
Scorponok being in shadow all the time makes no sense from an internal continuity perspective or from a narrative standpoint.
It does, however, make sense from a melodramatic standpoint.

Not that it excuses his ability to be completely concealed by shadow even in a fully lit room.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-01, 06:34 PM
But... but when he finishes his transtector he just stops being in shadow with no comment or explanation or reaction or oh for ****'s sake rewatching this is definitely going to make my top twenty stupidest things I've ever done.

Tetsuro
2015-12-02, 06:55 AM
I think they were trying to imitate Blofeld's reveal in You Only Live Twice with the way we first see him properly when he simply spins around in his chair.

Not that it works or anything.

At least he's voiced by Banjo Ginga.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-06, 09:36 PM
Still fighting my way through this. Bee planets, twin planets, swapping heads makes us more powerful... it's still ****ing terrible, but I know I've passed the halfway mark and eventually this'll end.

Watching with both subs and dub, which means I get two competing sets of English dialogue, in many instances competing strongly for which is more terrible.

Are we all reading All-Star Section 8?

[EDIT] Also it's an odd inversion that the good guy has a sword while the villain's primary weapon is a shield. There's probably some weird commentary that could be inferred from it, but I doubt anybody involved in writing this had any understanding of thematic subtext.

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-12-07, 01:44 PM
Still fighting my way through this. Bee planets, twin planets, swapping heads makes us more powerful... it's still ****ing terrible, but I know I've passed the halfway mark and eventually this'll end.

Watching with both subs and dub, which means I get two competing sets of English dialogue, in many instances competing strongly for which is more terrible.

Are we all reading All-Star Section 8?

[EDIT] Also it's an odd inversion that the good guy has a sword while the villain's primary weapon is a shield. There's probably some weird commentary that could be inferred from it, but I doubt anybody involved in writing this had any understanding of thematic subtext.

You think Headmasters is bad, Masterforce is even worse!

Skyquake87
2015-12-07, 03:31 PM
Masterforce is better, imo. Its less stupid, anyway. And there's an actual plot and it builds in pace and scale as the show rolls on. My favourite of the Japanese series. Victory and Headmasters are just... sigh.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-07, 04:48 PM
Yeah, I've had a lot of time for Masterforce in the past. Well, more time than I've got for this cluster****. For a start I actually made it all the way through the first time I watched it, which is more than I've ever managed with Headmasters. It's only sheer force of will and my inherent stubbornness that's stopping me from putting the discs through the tumble dryer this time out.

SGMF has the benefit of more-or-less a complete disconnect from the preceding seasons, alongside not really feeling like "proper" Transformers, so I don't judge it on the same curve as Attack of the Autobots or Fight or Flee. The fact I don't watch piloted-mech stuff in general also means I've got no frame of reference in that regard so can just enjoy it for what it is.

Whereas Headmasters is a complete mess on pretty much every level due to trying to operate as both a vehicle for the new characters and also a follow-up to 2010, while hindered by being so massively different in tone to everything that's come before (at least from a Western standpoint).

Killing off Soundwave and Blaster only to bring them back with new colour schemes, having Prime merge with the Matrix after only being back ten minutes, establishing Rodimus as leader again just to put him on a bus, having Galvatron blow up only to come back only to blow up again, going to the effort of having an episode where Ultra Magnus dies despite the fact that we'd all forgotten he was still alive anyway. It can't decide what it's doing with the old cast from one week to the next. So not only is Headmasters mind-bogglingly stupid anyway, it also can't make up its mind what the story is.

Masterforce has a clean break so just gets on with its own story without having to try and deal with everybody who's still hanging about from the previous year.

Okay, whether or not that story's much cop is another matter entirely, but at least it's concentrating on its own thing rather than having a massive identity crisis.

NB I reserve the right to spend January slagging off Masterforce with maximum prejudice, btw. It may be different to Headmasters in the ways stated but I'm still allowed to hate it on its own merits.

Hound
2015-12-07, 06:41 PM
I don't think I agree. It's been years since I watched either but I remember being mostly bored with Headmasters while Masterforce wasn't so boring. Neither is great but at least Masterforce has a halfway decent plot that runs through it.

Masterforce feels more like a super robot anime to me than a proper season of Transformers.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-07, 07:39 PM
's what I said. But I said it with more words. And a cooler accent.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-07, 07:44 PM
:(

Skyquake87
2015-12-07, 10:08 PM
Well done, Galvatron. Well done. What an excellent plan. Why the Decpeticons didn't shoot him in the face for that idea, I don't know.

Hound
2015-12-08, 03:21 AM
's what I said. But I said it with more words. And a cooler accent.Yes. I was actually replying to Cyberstrike, I didn't see Skyquake or your replies as they were on the next page and didn't notice that there was a next page to look at. Sorry.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-08, 08:50 AM
Yeah, s'what I figured, so don't apologise - was just saying that you put it more succinctly. Plus getting in a dig about how you're Canadian now.

Sorry, aboot how you're Canadian now.

inflatable dalek
2015-12-08, 08:57 AM
:(

Oh come on now, that's brilliant, and surely a very deliberate piss take of the entire show? Sixshot's slowly dawning realisation that Galvatron's trying to implement a mad Saturday morning TV plot and how this is actually a terrible thing is the best moment the character has ever had.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-08, 09:31 AM
Oh come on now, that's brilliant, and surely a very deliberate piss take of the entire show?

You... you genuinely think the people in charge of this had the self-awareness to lampoon themselves as they go?

Seriouslies?

inflatable dalek
2015-12-08, 09:32 AM
Maybe it was a one off writer?

Tetsuro
2015-12-08, 10:28 AM
The biggest problem with Masterforce is hinting at all these ideas that would make for great story elements to build over the course of it's 40+ episode run, only to totally ignore them in the actual show and just shunt them into some direct to video compilation where they just go "oh, and this thing happened", and even then they don't bother even hinting at an explanation for everything, like what's the deal with Doubleclouder's CIA connection.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-08, 10:03 PM
Pointblank's dramatic hero pose and kickass character model completely undermined by pretending to be best mates with Wheelie.

Cliffjumper
2015-12-08, 10:45 PM
I loved it when the Targetmasters turned up. Because it felt like sixty episodes since we'd seen any Autobots but the bloody Headmasters and Wheelie.

The most annoying thing about Headmasters (well, not, but the one I'm thinking of right now) is that Japanese Autobot characterisation of the five main guys. Chirpy, courageous interchangeable zombies; all bar Chromedome (who was always The Other One until Roberts wanted to drive up the price before ebaying his) unquestionably get better characterisation in "The Rebirth". Yup, better characterisation in "The Rebirth" than in 30-odd episodes that are basically about them.

(Incidentally, I have a feeling you might not have been active when one priceless poster declared that Headmasters was perfect grist to be Voltron'd into a successful teen-orientated anime series for broadcast on TV. In 2012. (http://tfarchive.com/community/showthread.php?t=50974))

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-09, 09:18 AM
I loved it when the Targetmasters turned up. Because it felt like sixty episodes since we'd seen any Autobots but the bloody Headmasters and Wheelie.

Not true, they dusted off Ultra Magnus about three beforehand just so they could kill him.

It's excellent how they all make such a fuss, too. "OMG he was my best friend, a true hero, a wonderful Autobot who's not even turned grey or has any visibly damage and hang on didn't we just rebuild Broadcast and he legit exploded? No, you're right. Into the sea with his body."

(Incidentally, I have a feeling you might not have been active when one priceless poster declared that Headmasters was perfect grist to be Voltron'd into a successful teen-orientated anime series for broadcast on TV. In 2012. (http://tfarchive.com/community/showthread.php?t=50974))

Jesus f***, I didn't make it to the end of page 1, even considering I was sort of glazing over when reading the original poster's responses.

Headmasters isn't something that can be fixed by a dub, new subs or editing bits out and replacing them with footage from something else. It's diabolical on a cellular level and the only cure would be to take the basic, basic, basic, basic overarching plot and make an entirely new story based on that.

Call it, I dunno, Titans Return or something...

Thing with HM was, as you point out in that other thread, back before it was available for us to all watch it had this mythical mystique. "Oh the cartoon carried on in Japan. Prime merged with the Matrix, Soundwave got an upgrade, Cybertron blew up, Sixshot killed Ultra Magnus in a duel. Be warned though, the dub is appalling." etc and so on.

Then we all got the opportunity to watch it and realised we were being trolled. "Haha, good one internet. You left out the bit about Trypticon and the rope bridge, how Soundwave's new form is shit, how all the characters are idiots, and that Daniel and Wheelie are the emotional hub of the series. Well played."

Unfortunately some people just insist on clinging onto the myth because doing otherwise involves admitting that the thing they'd wanted since c1988 (ie a continuation of G1) is ****ing terrible.

And considering many of them have trouble admitting that the original cartoon is anything other than perfect... well. You end up with threads like that.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-10, 10:02 PM
SUCCESS! I'VE DONE IT!

I've made it into the block of episodes I've never seen before. So that's a win.

Plus: Flywheels.

I think I'm developing some form of Stockholm syndrome with the opening theme tune. Turansfooma! Turansfooma! Heddumasutaaaaa!

Help me.

inflatable dalek
2015-12-11, 04:10 PM
There's no help for you.

Fully agreed on the mysticism the Japanese stuff used to have. Remember how people used to be convinced there were a load of unaired season 4 episodes sitting in a vault somewhere in the East with no evidence as well?

That thread reminds me of the chap who hated Revenge of the Fallen so much he was prepared to devote hours of his life to re-editing it to make it "Watchable". Not good, just bearable. Because Stan Bush can do that.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-11, 06:22 PM
Remember how people used to be convinced there were a load of unaired season 4 episodes sitting in a vault somewhere in the East with no evidence as well?

Usually pointing to the original (coughtoyadvertrecyccough) footage in the Rebirth credits as evidence. Because every other season's opening sequences consisted of scenes from the episodes, obviously.

Holy Buddha on a chocolate BMX, this Sixshot face-turn episode is everything I feared it would be and less.

Skyquake87
2015-12-11, 07:36 PM
I can't remember that one. Probably a good thing. Its not the one where he unveils his piss-poor super awesome 'seventh mode' is it?

"If you're called Sixshot, why do you have 7 modes?"

"Shut up or I'll fly at you with my wolf face. Ninja consultant style."

Ninja consultant. You can tell this is set in our time. I bet that's some bullshit civil servant job or mid-management non-job somewhere.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-11, 07:42 PM
Nah, Sevenshot is the one where they remember Ultra Magnus needs killing off.

I was referring to the one where he gets stranded on a planet (maybe an asteroid? a moon?) with Daniel and the two of them become the bestest friends that ever did friend.

I don't think there's a single episode in this series that hasn't elicited a "jesus f***" from me at some point.

Nearly finished the last episode. I've not killed anybody yet. Though the Decepticon Headmasters have just decided that stacking on top of each other in beast mode is definitely the best way to attack the Autobots, so I might have to go and stab somebody now.

Random questions:
- Are Spike and Carly the most irresponsible parents in the universe?
- Where the **** are Cyclonus and Scourge? I mean I'd have probably done a runner in their position, too. But at least mention it guys...

[EDIT] Finished!

The Power Formation of Friendship saves the day!

Irredeemable tosh. What an unsalvageable cluster**** of a series. Shit right down to the DNA. Give me the Rebirth over that every time.

Tetsuro
2015-12-11, 08:12 PM
I must be the only person who just doesn't see the annoying-ness of Wheelie in the series. Daniel I can at least kind of understand, but even then it's limited to stupid crap like him wailing like a toddler in that meteor episode.

That thread reminds me of the chap who hated Revenge of the Fallen so much he was prepared to devote hours of his life to re-editing it to make it "Watchable". Not good, just bearable. Because Stan Bush can do that.
That's just sad. I mean, any sane person would know nothing can make Revenge of the Fallen watchable. :D

Not even if Megan Fox had spent the entire duration of the film topless.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-14, 11:28 AM
Have put together an Official TFArchive Drinking Game for anybody who watches Headmasters in future.

Rules as follows:

Drink every time.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-04-30, 09:14 PM
Ah, Masterforce, you beautiful piece of batshit insanity.

The heartwarming tale of a group of aliens who pretend to be humans to befriend children and lure them into fighting on their behalf.

Could really do without the opening credits and ad bumpers that heavily feature characters and concepts that won't be introduced for about another dozen episodes though.

Clay
2016-05-01, 12:55 AM
Have you made it to the one where the Decepticon kicks the puppy and it dies? It's pretty early on, I think. It's one of my favorite moments from the series.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-05-02, 05:08 PM
Have you made it to the one where the Decepticon kicks the puppy and it dies? It's pretty early on, I think. It's one of my favorite moments from the series.

Not a clue, my brain is instinctively filtering out what's happening as noise.

I mean I *want* to pay attention and read the subtitles and follow the story, but it's like watching a snail try to breakdance.

[EDIT] Oh, no wait, there it is.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-05-07, 10:41 AM
The level of sexual harassment/objectification that Minerva is being subjected to by her peers is really ****ing uncomfortable, it must be said.

I know it's the late 80s and also Japan, but still.

Also, how did Cab learn to drive and why hasn't Shuta been arrested for impersonating a police officer?

"Oh hey, there's a cop car and a fire engine in a rush, let's follow them! Oh wait, they've stopped for milkshakes... and are being driven by children?"

Also Phoenix just called his whip thing "snake rod" and I just can't.

Tetsuro
2016-05-08, 09:07 AM
So I've been watching Headmasters myself and now that I'm no longer comparing it to the Transformers cartoons came before it at all, but instead to all the other Japanese super robot shows that came before it (all of which I must've watched in the time between the last time I saw this and now), I've come to realize how bad it really is.

It's badness has mostly to do with just how bland it is. The constant, pointless fighting, the awkward dialogue between the fights to justify even more fighting...the closest thing to anything feeling like actual drama is when Wheelie is banging a console with his fists over Decepticons about to blow up Cybertron, and even that is hard to even notice amidst all the blandness surrounding it.

Speaking of things being drowned out, I've also noticed an odd bit of subtlety going on with the story; something I never noticed before, probably because everything else is explicitly stated in dialogue to a point of absurdity, but Vector Sigma suddenly making this super alloy is actually picking up on the plot thread introduced way back in episode 1, where the instability caused by the Matrix energy meant the Autobots could no longer control it, and since it's now running on it's own, it's decided to start making this alloy regardless of the consequences.

So yes, I've just watched part two of The One Where They Blow Up Cybertron and I have to admit, in some way the whole story feels almost like an unbelievably harsh comeback towards Rodimus himself; after all, the story is basically a retake on Fight or Flee, where he made the same decision, but with Cybertron instead of some planet we'd never even heard of before - and much like to him then, Fortress and Scorponok do not consider Cybertron "home" the same way the old characters did, so they really don't have the same desire to protect it.

Hmm. Maybe I should've made the "Tetsuro watches Headmasters" thread on TFW2005 after all.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-05-08, 05:48 PM
Could really do without the opening credits and ad bumpers that heavily feature characters and concepts that won't be introduced for about another dozen episodes though.

****'s sake, the episode directly before Super Ginrai's debut features a closing bumper for... yep, Super Ginrai. At least the "next episode" preview's title card keeps him in shadow, but nope, it's already blown.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-05-13, 05:11 PM
Okay, the dialogue may be largely atrocious and a lot of the character interaction, er, "quirky", but Masterforce is infinitely more watchable than Headmasters was.

As in I can sit through half a dozen episodes in one block without wanting to kill myself or random strangers.

Almost as if actually having a (sort of) coherent plot and not having to deal with loose ends from the preceding series helps it.

Sure, it feels like certain things show up out of nowhere and the character decay on the Destron Pretenders is hilarious, but at least it's confident enough to decide what it's going to do and then just stick it out.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-10-04, 08:03 PM
One episode into Victory and it's really astonishing how it takes the gambit of making everything so terrible (the plot, the dialogue, the off-the-shelf characterisation, the Brainmaster/Brestforce concepts, literally everything about Dinoforce) that you can just shrug it all off, disengage brain and just enjoy it as a fun actioner.

It's a risky strategy, but it pays off.

Opening and closing credits are aces though.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-10-08, 12:34 PM
Am up to the episode where Hellbat turns up and, to be perfectly honest, I've not been paying the slightest bit of attention to the subtitles for several episodes now, but it doesn't seem to be impacting my understanding of what's going on at all...

Tetsuro
2016-10-08, 07:54 PM
Victory is probably best watched without any translation at all. At least then you can pretend the Autobots have some kind of personalities.

...okay, maybe that'd be a bit of a stretch. But at least they'd come off a great deal less smug about their righteousness.

You know, it's entirely Victory's fault it took me so long to ever start watching the Braves, because some idiot called them a "spiritual successor" to Victory, but they're actually at least a kadzillion times better. Even at their blandest they're still nowhere close to the blandness of Victory.

Whoever said that was probably the same idiot who claimed Daitarn 3 was a spiritual successor to Zambot 3.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-10-09, 09:40 PM
This has some of the shittest "comedy" I've ever seen, and I've sat through Harry Hill routines.

Tetsuro
2016-10-12, 02:10 PM
To be honest, I think Victory's target audience is supposed to be very small children. Like, much younger than the average shounen. Think Rescue Bots but for Japanese kids.

I mean, Transformers in Japan in general (at least at the time) was aimed at a much younger demographic than it was in the west, but I think Victory demonstrates it most explicitly.

...not saying it's not crap tho. Never seen Rescue Bots but I'm pretty sure it's still miles better than Victory.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-10-12, 02:16 PM
Think Rescue Bots

[...]

Never seen Rescue Bots

Cool story. Thanks for the input.

Tetsuro
2016-10-12, 03:51 PM
Wow, what an amazing comeback, sure had me.

Are you suggesting that Rescue Bots isn't aimed at a younger demographic than Prime?

Brendocon 2.0
2016-10-12, 06:09 PM
I've seen neither Prime nor Rescue Bots, so can't comment.

What I have seen is you compare Victory to Rescue Bots, then in the very same post admit that you've not seen Rescue Bots, therefore rendering your entire comparison worthless.

Maybe you can go on to compare it to some other things you've not seen?

Tetsuro
2016-10-12, 06:31 PM
The only comparison I made was the age demographic. You don't need to see it to do that, just like I don't need to watch Thomas the Tank Engine to know it's aimed at the same age group as Postman Pat.

Ryan F
2016-11-15, 12:10 AM
Completely at a tangent now, but I just saw Cosmic Rust, randomly.

The one where Perceptor has conveniently made an anti-rust spray ("corro-stop") right around the time that the Decepticons get a rusting disease. What luck.

To be fair, it's a funny episode.

Glaring error that I never noticed before, is the fact that Perceptor uses the anti-rust stuff on the Statue of Liberty!!??? Huh?

I thought it was common knowledge that the Statue of Liberty is made of copper, and when copper rusts it turns green, hence why the Statue of Liberty is green.

So the question is: why would anyone want to 'un-rust' the Statue of Liberty, considering its green hue is now pretty much iconic?

Also, if Perceptor has just un-rusted the Statue, why does it still look green in the episode, instead of reverting to natural coppery-brown?

inflatable dalek
2016-11-15, 09:13 AM
To be fair, that's not as bad as Doctor Who treating Lady Liberty as if she were stone and therefor could be a weeping angel...

Ryan F
2016-11-15, 01:41 PM
To be fair, that's not as bad as Doctor Who treating Lady Liberty as if she were stone and therefor could be a weeping angel...

And amazingly, that's not even the worst logical flaw in that particular episode!

Tetsuro
2016-11-15, 04:59 PM
I thought it was common knowledge that the Statue of Liberty is made of copper, and when copper rusts it turns green, hence why the Statue of Liberty is green.
Copper doesn't rust tho, the green colour is caused by patina which I understand is considered a good thing? It's supposed to protect the statues from the elements and that's why they're usually left green. Unlike rust which just eats through the metal alloy.

Which doesn't make your point any less valid though. Even then, Perceptor is still changing the appearance of a major landmark in a big way - except he isn't, because it's still green. It doesn't really make any sense if you think about it.

Heinrad
2016-12-19, 01:09 AM
I've launched into my own rewatch of Headmasters, Masterforce, and what I'll be able to watch of Victory.

Unless I download Real Player. Can you still get Real Player?

And I go with the RTM dubs, because in all honesty, as bad as the dubs are, they kind of lessen the pain.

I wish I could find the dubs on DVD. My VCDs aren't aging very well......

And why were Cyclonus and Scourge piloting Trypticon like he's a Battlemech? And why didn't anybody secure him after they bailed out?

I enjoy these shows the same way I enjoy badly dubbed martial arts movies. And they make about as much sense.

Tetsuro
2016-12-19, 03:37 PM
I wish I could find the dubs on DVD. My VCDs aren't aging very well......
Do people still sell those cheap Chinese bootlegs on ebay?

Heinrad
2016-12-20, 03:24 AM
They used to. Now whenever I look, all I see is Shout Factory and Metrodome versions.

EDIT:

Ah-HA! Those wacky Malaysians. I can get a set. I just hope the image quality is good.

Tetsuro
2016-12-20, 02:43 PM
Unlikely, seeing the bootlegs usually just use single-layer DVDs and cram like nine episodes on each disc so they're probably compressed to all hell at the very least.

Heinrad
2016-12-20, 11:22 PM
I think Malaysia is where my set of Evangelion came from. The image quality is okay, not all that high-def. My only real complaint is that the audio winds up shifting about a tenth to a half second out of sync.

The really weird part is that the VCD set of Headmasters that I'm watching never worked. If fact, I think they were touted as DVDs when I got them, but other than a menu screen they never worked. My computer isn't enjoying them very much, but it enjoyed my normal set even less.

Brendocon 2.0
2017-02-08, 10:00 AM
It's really nice that Beast Wars holds up.

Okay the CGI is still primitive even for mid-90s standards, the dialogue try-hard cheesy in places and season 1 is padded out far too much... but all that was true whenever the last time I watched it was.

Only notable difference is that in terms of character and voice, Rattrap is basically Rocket from the GotG film. Can't shake that off.

Three eps into season 2 and can't shake the warm glow I'm getting from revisiting it. Top.

Skyquake87
2017-02-08, 08:32 PM
I never used to like Rattrap, he's a whiny, back-talking pain in the ass. Over the years, the character's really grown on me. There's his whole espionage thing, which by his character and demeanour was something that was very much in his past, and you always got the impression with him there was a lot of deliberate prickliness about him. Like he's seen some sh*t and it was baaaad. Do love his scenes where he's constantly winding Dinobot up :)

Brendocon 2.0
2017-02-09, 06:08 PM
Shame about season 3 treading water really. The main plot's run its course and the attempts to do something interesting while waiting for the finale are overwhelmed by having to introduce new toys in a way the previous seasons managed to overcome.

Skyquake87
2017-02-09, 06:47 PM
I think I give Season 3 far more leeway than I should. I was so happy when Universal put out the tapes so we could watch it in the UK, but with rewatches, yeah, its a bit of a choppy season and the finale feels a bit rushed.

I didn't see 'Optimal Situation' until some years later when I got a DVD player (thanks to the magic of weird UK releases on VHS and DVD), and that is probably the most disappointing episode of the season.

Brendocon 2.0
2017-02-09, 07:01 PM
I think I give Season 3 far more leeway than I should. I was so happy when Universal put out the tapes so we could watch it in the UK, but with rewatches, yeah, its a bit of a choppy season and the finale feels a bit rushed.

Yeah, it's not like it's actively bad or anything... it's just... eh.

Oh and yeah, huge shout-out to Universal for making both Aftermath and Optimal Situation toy-pack-in exclusives on VHS...

Warcry
2017-02-09, 07:53 PM
Season three really suffers due to the uncertainty surrounding the show's fate, I think. The writers didn't know whether there'd be a season three or not, so they burned through most of their plot hooks in the last half of season two and didn't really leave themselves much to build on. So it takes them an episode or two to establish a new status quo, then they spend a few more episodes introducing new characters and tech...and then there's only a handful of episodes left, they're cancelled for real this time and oh shit we need to wrap this up what do we do?

I still enjoyed it, but it certainly didn't have the same well-plotted depth to it that the second season did, or the same sense of adventure as the first.

Brendocon 2.0
2017-02-09, 08:07 PM
Yeah, part of what I love about season 2 is that it gradually leaves Megatron with absolutely no other option as all his pieces fall... but the byproduct is that it leaves him with absolutely no plan for season 3.

And given that "Megatron's a magnificent bastard with multiple plans and is 27 steps ahead of everyone" has been one of the driving forces of the series up until then...

"Shit, we killed most of the Predacons... it's plausible that Inferno survived that blast, right? We can just reintegrate Tarantulas if we don't draw attention to it, yeah? Er, here's an alien device that creates Transmetal 2s. No, don't ask where he got it from or when, just roll with it..."

Still pisses over 85% of the original G1 toon, mind.

Warcry
2017-02-09, 09:54 PM
There was on big plot left to resolve, but they only really touched on it for a single episode: the Vok. The natural plot for season three would have been something along the lines of "the aliens want to kill every Transformer everywhere and are corrupting us into Transmetal II slaves, and everyone needs to work together to stop them!!!!" But of course that's with the benefit of hindsight, knowing from the get-go that season three was really going to be the end and writing it that way from the first episode on.

inflatable dalek
2017-02-10, 02:48 PM
Yeah, always found BW season 3 a bit of a slog outside of the finale for all the reasons mentioned. Plus it always felt like Megatron became infected by his predecessors spark and became a complete idiot (in the Agenda killing Optimus is a last desperate throw of the dice when he has nothing left to lose, in season 3 he keeps trying to destroy the whole Ark despite the uncertainty about what killing the Decepticons as well would do to his own history).

Brendocon 2.0
2017-02-10, 06:51 PM
Still a big fan of the Nemesis two-parter. The big epic finale that the series deserved, full of ace stuff. Depth Charge and Rampage's final showdown, Waspinator's resignation, Rhinox saving the day... it's only the Dinobot stuff that doesn't quite land properly, due to the scrapped episode from earlier on.

he keeps trying to destroy the whole Ark despite the uncertainty about what killing the Decepticons as well would do to his own history).

Eh, I'm cool with it. It's proper last-ditch desperation stuff. And he was carrying G1 Megatron's spark, so whatever happened that was guaranteed to survive at any rate.

Warcry
2017-02-10, 11:15 PM
Yeah, always found BW season 3 a bit of a slog outside of the finale for all the reasons mentioned.
I don't think it counts as a slog, personally. It's got Depth Charge and his burning hatred for Rampage, Black Arachnia trying to be a good person, Dinobot II, Cheetor starting to grow up, Tigerhawk, Tarantulas getting eaten by the Vok...there's still a lot of good stuff there. The previous season set the bar so high that it feels like a big step down, but compared to basically any other TF series it's still pretty good. I'd still rather watch it than any similar-sized chunk of G1 or Unicron Trilogy episodes, for starters.

it's only the Dinobot stuff that doesn't quite land properly, due to the scrapped episode from earlier on.
The Dinobot stuff was obviously going to happen regardless, so even without Dark Glass to lend context I don't think it's entirely out of left field. They should have started hinting at it a few episodes sooner, sure, but did anyone not expect Dinobot to turn from the moment he was brought back?

Brendocon 2.0
2017-02-11, 01:45 PM
Impossible for me to comment, really. The state of the fandom and the availability of material at the beginning of the century meant I knew about it before I ever actually watched it.

And to be fair I didn't say it was out of left field, just that it doesn't quite land properly. It still works, just not as well as it would have done if the other stuff had been included.

I'm on episode 4 of Beast Machines right now. I'm going to wait until the end of season 1 before committing to any thoughts... but so far my recollection of the series isn't being challenged.

Skyquake87
2017-02-12, 10:19 AM
I'm watching Beast Machines at the moment, just into ep 2 of Season 2. I have a lot of love for this series - again, largely just being able to watch it (and on Region 2 DVDs!In its entirety!) thanks to Universal having a bit of a quick cash-grab during the time of the first Bay film - but it is quite hard work.

It has quite a deep philosophical bent for a kids show, but that complexity is undone by a series of very repetitive episodes and some extremely flat characterisation throughout. Things start to turn around towards the end of the first season with all the Tankor stuff.

The thing that I felt could have done with some further expansion is Megatron's dislike of his beast form that's driven him to this idea of technological purity - there's a story there that's never touched on or expanded, so it feels very abrupt following on from Beast Wars (hand wavey 'he got to Cybertron before the Maximals aside').

The animation is stunning though, I love the design and shadows on Cybertron and the character models are all largely great (except for Optimus' beast mode, which must be the ugliest thing ever - what were they thinking with those massive hands and that weird elongated neck with a face dangling off the end?).

Tetsuro
2017-02-13, 04:08 AM
Didn't see anyone brings this up, but apparently the folks who subbed Car Robots and Micron Legend also did Beast Wars II.

Still no sign of Neo tho.

Heinrad
2017-02-23, 11:53 PM
So, finally, I have Headmasters, Masterforce, and Victory on DVD, the English dub.

Yes gods, why do I love these dubs? They're bloody awful.

Nightbeat: "They made me a teenage girl......"

We're not there yet. We're on Headmasters. I'd forgotten exactly how nuts this one is. Of the three series, it's probably the ugliest. And yet it's huge in terms of scope. Alien races, Battle Beasts, crazed schemes, Mindwipe accidentally hypnotizing Skullcruncher half the time.....

And yet.... It feels like the season 4 we could have had. Other than a more overarching plot line, and some really odd dialogue, there's a definate feel of season 3.

And a feeling that whoever wrote it was desperately trying to mimic the way the US cartoon worked.

Blitzwing
2017-02-24, 03:24 PM
I'm planning to get the Shout Factory versions of Headmasters, Masterforce and Victory some time in the next year. I saw a few episodes of Headmasters about 15 years ago, but never got back into it since then. I currently am slogging my way through Season 2 of the G1 cartoon, and plan on checking them out afterwards.

My main question for anybody that has seen them is are they better with English Sub-Titles or the English Dub? Is the Dub professional or is it more fan-made level quality?

inflatable dalek
2017-02-24, 03:29 PM
Well, the dub is technically professional and more accurate than it's often given credit (having the subs on at the same time will often result in both being basically the same), but it's also very low budget and with minimal reference material resulting in performances that are certainly worth hearing once.

Blackjack
2017-02-24, 03:49 PM
I haven't watched Headmasters super-exhaustively, but the dub quality, while generally featuring good translation, has pretty... unimpressive voicework, even compared to other dubbed Transformers shows like Armada or Cybertron (those two have the benefit of featuring the very talented Beast Wars voice actors, though). Mileage may vary on whether you consider 'language I understand but shoddy voice acting' or 'more decent voice acting but I have to read while they talk in a foreign language' far more palatable, though.

I've only watched like a couple of episodes, though, so take it with a grain of salt.

Tetsuro
2017-02-24, 04:58 PM
HM/MF/V were dubbed by a Southeast Asian company, a Hong Kong one I think, who also dubbed a lot of movie from that region, including the Riki-Oh movie. So obviously their voice acting isn't quite up to par with a company like Fox Kids, which is the opposite; awful translations, competent voice actors.

Then again, when they just make up the character names, can you really call it a competent translation either?

While the Shout! releases are tempting from a technical perspective, the fact that they (apparently under Hasbro mandate) shoehorned IDW terminology into the translations where they have no business being is a massive turnoff.

We're not there yet. We're on Headmasters. I'd forgotten exactly how nuts this one is. Of the three series, it's probably the ugliest. And yet it's huge in terms of scope. Alien races, Battle Beasts, crazed schemes, Mindwipe accidentally hypnotizing Skullcruncher half the time.....

And yet.... It feels like the season 4 we could have had. Other than a more overarching plot line, and some really odd dialogue, there's a definate feel of season 3.

And a feeling that whoever wrote it was desperately trying to mimic the way the US cartoon worked.

That's probably why I like Headmasters so much.

Well, maybe "like" is a bit too strong a word. It obviously has it's flaws with characters acting like idiots for the sake of plot, but I still don't think it's quite as bad as people seem to think. Then again, I also think it's better than Victory, putting me in the minority.

It doesn't help that the official subtitles aren't that great either. I remember there was a name or something they didn't bother to actually translate - by which I mean they didn't include it in the freakin' subtitles at all so in the end you have no idea what the thing is actually called unless you actually pay attention to the Japanese dialogue and can tell which word it is. Or you can just go to TFwiki, but I'd rather not.

Brendocon 2.0
2017-02-24, 06:53 PM
Headmasters is an absolute garbage fire of a show and the comedy value provided by the appalling dub is genuinely the only thing that keeps it watchable.

Tetsuro
2017-02-25, 12:48 AM
Whatever rocks your boat, man.

Meanwhile, I'm trying my damnest to convince myself to watch Masterforce, I've gone through the usual motions (ie. watched every other show preceding it in addition to reading the Marvel comic up to late '88 or whatever), but I feel kind of burned out on Transformers right now. Might just watch something else instead and hold it off until I actually feel like watching it again.

Heinrad
2017-02-26, 04:04 AM
Closing in on the end of Headmasters now, and the art's gotten a lot better. Except when it isn't. It's like they had one team trying to mimic the overall look of season 3, and another doing far more traditional generic mecha-style animation.

This is also the first time it really sunk in exactly how much of a headache Zarak must have been for the designers. They wind up having to make a Headmaster component the same height as, say, Pointblank. Or leave him human sized. Or both in the same scene.

Heinrad
2017-03-04, 03:26 PM
So...... My Friend, SIXSHOT! is just kind of odd. Or Uncle Sixshot as Daniel keeps calling him. Admittedly, part of the problem is the dub(never has anybody using the term Little Boy sounded so creepy. Repeatedly.), but it's such a character change for him. He goes from being a, generally honorable, typical kids show baddie to cool and brooding anti-hero.

The art on it was great, though. And Wheelie is just the worst. He pushes Daniel into the Radon cannon room that gets damaged and ejected, and then he tells Daniel that Chromedome and Sixshot might kill each other in their duel.

And why does Fort Max have hatch locking wheels?

Heinrad
2017-03-05, 11:47 AM
Headmasters is now over. Good guys win, bad guys lose, just about every character that got tossed aside shows back up to remind us they're still there(either as a bone to the fan base or a Takara mandate to get what's left of the old stock moving), the writers saying screw it and giving up trying to imitate the U.S. Series, the art team giving up trying to make it look like season 3.....

But does the ending save it? Does it make up for the just general insanity of the last 25 to 30 episodes?

To me, kind of. As Brend put it, it is more or less a garbage fire in terms of anything at all making sense. The dub makes it tolerable simply for unintended comedy value. At least, I guess it wasn't intended.

It does some stuff well. It builds on the intergalactic scope of things. Yeah, Battle Beasts and Bee People are odd, but it's imaginative.

Strangely enough, my favorite thing in it is still Chromedome. They wind up doing with him what I think they wanted to do with Roddy in season 3. At the start, he's rash, impulsive, and prone to charging off to fight the enemy. By the end, he's grown and matured somewhat. That being said, his character growth really starts once the writers gave up trying to mimic the U.S. series. Roddy's downfall was more the nature of syndication and the fact that the episodes were more or less standalone, and lots of letters from distraught children. And distraught parents. And possibly distraught toy store owners who wound up with lots of space Winnebagos on their shelves.

And now I'm into Masterforce. The art's much better, although I can tell the B team's already come in for art duties. They're keeping the scope small to start with, they've done the typical trope of giving teenagers who've probably had no driver's ed classes cars(I'm not even sure Cab/Hosehead had ever seen a car before...... you can tell his parents hated him in the dub. Who names their kid Hosehead? At least Minerva manages to pass Nightbeat off more as a nickname), and the villains of the piece so far are reasonably intelligent. As memory serves, they go through the worst character degradation in anime history once more of the story unfolds, but for now Bombburst and his buddies are an actual threat.

But while I think Masterforce is my favorite of the three series, it's theme is the worst. Especially with the subtitles. Headmasters is 80s Rock, Victory is catchy at levels that only the DuckTales theme can hit, Masterforce..... isn't. It's way too sedate, and the lyrics are worrying.

Warcry
2017-07-25, 09:11 PM
I'm watching Beast Machines at the moment, just into ep 2 of Season 2. I have a lot of love for this series - again, largely just being able to watch it (and on Region 2 DVDs!In its entirety!) thanks to Universal having a bit of a quick cash-grab during the time of the first Bay film - but it is quite hard work.
I've gotten to around this point in the series myself, but this the first time I've ever watched it! After absorbing some seventeen years' worth of bile that's been spewed about it, I have to say...it's not at all what I expected. It's actually pretty good! But not without flaws.

It has quite a deep philosophical bent for a kids show, but that complexity is undone by a series of very repetitive episodes and some extremely flat characterisation throughout. Things start to turn around towards the end of the first season with all the Tankor stuff.
I watched the first season in three sittings I think, maybe four, so I didn't mind that the pace was a bit slow. I can imagine it was a bit frustrating to watch week-to-week on TV back in the day, though. But in general, the whole season had the feeling of building momentum, with things moving a bit quicker and getting a bit more intense with every episode until it exploded in the finale.

The Vehicon characters were generally (no pun intended) quite good. Tankor feels like a genuine threat, Jetstorm is insufferably smug and Thrust genuinely seems like he's struggling with his loyalties (until the Maximals reject him for not being who they thought he was). Even the Diagnostic Drone felt like a fully fleshed-out person. Nightscream on the other hand is quite grating, though they seemed to tone it down as the show went on.

The thing that I felt could have done with some further expansion is Megatron's dislike of his beast form that's driven him to this idea of technological purity - there's a story there that's never touched on or expanded, so it feels very abrupt following on from Beast Wars (hand wavey 'he got to Cybertron before the Maximals aside').
Megatron and Optimus both seem to have undergone complete personality transplants on the way back to Cybertron, and that above anything else really hurts the show as a sequel. They're well-written characters and if this was a standalone show I wouldn't have a problem with it, but as a big BW fan it definitely hurts my enjoyment to hear the iconic Chalk and Kaye voices coming from these two weirdos.

Honestly, I'm even more weirded out by seeing the proactive, decisive Primal become a reactionary fanatic totally incapable of doing anything that doesn't fit with the Oracle's dogma. BW Primal didn't seem the type to even believe in the thing (aside from one line in the episode that Furman wrote, but that's Furman so whatever), and he certainly wouldn't have followed it so unthinkingly, totally setting aside his own judgment.

The animation is stunning though, I love the design and shadows on Cybertron and the character models are all largely great (except for Optimus' beast mode, which must be the ugliest thing ever - what were they thinking with those massive hands and that weird elongated neck with a face dangling off the end?).
From a technical standpoint I'd say it's great. A lot smoother than what we got during Beast Wars, even the much-improved later seasons. I have a hard time believing it was done in 1999. But the art direction is so godawful that I have a hard time appreciating that, and I just can't agree with you about the character models. I think everyone and everything looks terrible aside from Tankor, and maybe Blackarachnia and Cheetor's beast modes if I'm in a generous mood.

Tetsuro
2017-09-11, 05:12 PM
Just finished the three-part arc of Masterforce where the Autobot base is destroyed.

For some reason I always got the impression that Clouder's change of heart was because the Seacons left him to die, but unless the subtitles on the Metrodome DVDs are full of crap like the Headmasters ones, he's screaming to the Autobots that the Seacons are here, so it seems like his change of heart comes from...what, exactly? He didn't exactly get to fall for Minerva's charms in the same way Cancer did, and considering how desperate the Decepticons had been until then to get some new Godmasters, it seems really weird of them to not even bring it up, let alone make an effort to actually save him.

Skyquake87
2017-09-13, 08:28 PM
I've just spent the last 2 weeks watching Animated Season 3! I'd forgotten how much I like Animated. It's so cheery and funny and does new things with the TF mythos. Might have to re-watch it all the way from the beginning.

Tetsuro
2017-11-07, 02:47 AM
No matter how many times I watch it, the moment in Masterforce where the Decepticon Headmaster juniors and Clouder are suddenly robbed of their bracelets and their transtectors become sentient and turn evil again?

I always think "man, that's such a load of bullshit".

inflatable dalek
2017-11-17, 04:40 PM
One thing that's surprised me over the last few weeks is running into several fans in their 20's (because I hang out with the cool kids) and them all being big fans of the cartoon. Seems those cable repeats and cash in DVDs around the time of the first film/Animated did their job and that generation (a Generation 2 if you will. Or is it 3?) is tremendously fond of the old show and consider it gleeful nonsense they like as much as the versions of the franchise from their actual childhood.

Indeed, they seem more upbeat about it than I usually see those of us who were there in the 80's being! Interesting none of them have been able to really get into the Marvel comics despite all having given it a go since becoming Fans (or in a few cases even tried the Titan books from their library when they were kids). Have comics shifted more than cartoons over the years for them to seem more like dusty relics? I suppose so, even after the post Batman Animated Series revolution there must still be a lot of cheerfully cheap toy advert cartoons.

I suppose none of this should have been that surprising, my generation all definitely preferred the older Scooby Doo repeats over the stuff that didn't have half the team in and there was no shortage of 60's TV on at teatime we ate up (IIRC Randll and Hopkirk, which was never properly networked originally, was actually more of a success for BBC2 in the 90's than on original broadcast).

Warcry
2017-11-17, 05:38 PM
Indeed, they seem more upbeat about it than I usually see those of us who were there in the 80's being!
I would venture that a lot of them probably watched it for the first time as adults (or older children, at least) knowing full well what to expect from it. Whereas a lot of us had glowing memories of it from when we were five or six only to rewatch it as grown-ups and be very disappointed when it didn't match up to our nostalgic memories. So it's a lot easier for them to just like it for what it is.

Interesting none of them have been able to really get into the Marvel comics despite all having given it a go since becoming Fans (or in a few cases even tried the Titan books from their library when they were kids). Have comics shifted more than cartoons over the years for them to seem more like dusty relics? I suppose so, even after the post Batman Animated Series revolution there must still be a lot of cheerfully cheap toy advert cartoons.
I think you're underestimating just how bad some stretches of the Marvel book were. If a new reader started from the beginning, I wouldn't blame them for not making it past the first mini. And after that, the US book had one good arc and then mostly sucked until around #60, and the first bunch of UK stories weren't especially great (or accessible) either. Even if they just picked up a random trade there's still probably only a 1 in 3 chance that it'll actually be something that's both good and comprehensible, and not, say, Space Pirates or wrestling Micromasters, or the end of a years-long story arc.

Skyquake87
2017-11-17, 08:43 PM
I'd agree with that! nearly twenty years ago when Marvel started cranking out those 'Essentials' b&w reprints of early Marvel stories, I found them quaint, hard to follow and a little bit impenetrable with all the florid exposition boxes and so on. Easy to get past when its something like Lee & Kirby in their prime on Fantastic Four or mid '70s Spider-Man. Less so when its whatever was going on with Spider-Woman.

The rhythm, pace and dynamics of comic-book storytelling has changed so much since that older stuff can seem... less impressive. Transformers especially, which is a very dense and smudgy looking book in its early days. With horrible colouring, even by contemporary standards.

When Titan reprinted the UK stuff, I liked the approach they had which was sort of a 'Collected Comics' approach. The Galvatron story was told across five volumes and then you had a bunch of standalones arranged around a theme. The UK stuff, with its larger format, more expressive artwork and more energetic stories is probably what I'd point anyone interested in the old comics towards.

As for the cartoon, I've just rewatched Season 3 (on one of the cheap cash-in 2009 ROTF releases) and found it hugely enjoyable. There's almost actual character development, with the focus on the same key bunch of Autobots. I love the relationship between the Unicron created Decepticons, with Cyclonus being the one keeping a check on Galvatron's excesses (most of the time) and Scourge being treated so badly by the pair of them, its a wonder he just doesn't round up the Sweeps and leave.

G1Optimusprime9
2017-11-21, 02:01 AM
Yeah I re watched season one recently as well I really like it