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View Full Version : Star Wars Episode VII - The Force Awakens discussion thread NOW WITH SPOILERS NOW THE FILM IS OUT.


Rack 'n Ruin
2015-09-18, 05:33 PM
OK. I admit it. The hype train has well and truly got me - I am now far, far too excited about Star Wars VII. I find myself searching for rumours and counter-rumours on the plot, and I keep ooh-ing and aah-ing at toy X-Wings and Stormtroopers. Anyone else getting excited? Shall we share cool sounding news, rumours and theories here (in spoiler tags, natch)?







Oh, btw. I am your father.

Auntie Slag
2015-09-18, 07:34 PM
Nooooooooooooooooooo!

Auntie Slag
2015-09-18, 07:38 PM
Actually yes. Really looking forward to it. Definitely want to see it in the cinema. I saw RotS back in 2005 at the flicks, it was a lot of fun to watch on the big screen.

I'm happy to avoid all the rumours and internet things, though.

However, what really gets me is sodding Game of Thrones. You cannot move on the damn web without getting spoilers everywhere, which is annoying as I've yet to see the most recent stuff. So the Jon Snow stuff has already been revealed because they splash it up on news pages. Feckers.

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-09-18, 07:44 PM
Actually yes. Really looking forward to it. Definitely want to see it in the cinema. I saw RotS back in 2005 at the flicks, it was a lot of fun to watch on the big screen.

I'm happy to avoid all the rumours and internet things, though.

However, what really gets me is sodding Game of Thrones. You cannot move on the damn web without getting spoilers everywhere, which is annoying as I've yet to see the most recent stuff. So the Jon Snow stuff has already been revealed because they splash it up on news pages. Feckers.

Is he leaving the Channel 4 News? :o

I will definitely be seeing it at the cinema, hopefully on opening night. This sort of thing is much better on a big screen.

electro girl
2015-09-18, 07:47 PM
I was all hyped for the Lego sets until I saw the price still can't wait for the film though. Went to see Age of Ultron a while back and the trailer had already been leaked the day before so everyone had seen it but it was the first instance that I had even seen a cinema full of people stand up and applaud. Everyone lost their shit when Han and Chewie came on.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-18, 07:51 PM
However, what really gets me is sodding Game of Thrones. You cannot move on the damn web without getting spoilers everywhere, which is annoying as I've yet to see the most recent stuff. So the Jon Snow stuff has already been revealed because they splash it up on news pages. Feckers.

Thrones is one of those things where you either need to be:

a) not interested
or
b) not on any form of social media or the internet in general

I mean I read all the books before the series started + watch the series and I've been stupendously ****ed off by the amount of spoilers that news sites seem to think are fair game "just because that episode aired two seconds ago in the States".

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-09-18, 08:05 PM
I was all hyped for the Lego sets until I saw the price still can't wait for the film though. Went to see Age of Ultron a while back and the trailer had already been leaked the day before so everyone had seen it but it was the first instance that I had even seen a cinema full of people stand up and applaud. Everyone lost their shit when Han and Chewie came on.

Yeah, the Lego. Oh, the Lego. I wish I had the money and space to have a huge Lego Star Wars collection. It is the synthesis of 2/3 of my massive childhood passions (the other being TFs). What do you think of the new black and orange X-Wing? I want to love it, but the classic look outshines it for me. But still, X-WINGS! Squeeeee! :D

Anyway, the big news: C-3PO now has a red left arm. Maybe he didn't let the Wookiee win?

Auntie Slag
2015-09-18, 08:11 PM
@Brend: Exactly. It didn't used to be like this.

Even more annoying is when these stupid pages combine revealing news with a crappy group, plural aspect. e.g.

"... And its blown our minds".

"We can't unsee it".

And to rub salt even further into the wounds, they'll incorporate words they think are cool and happening right now, such as:

EPIC FAIL.

FEELS.

UNSEE.

Its like back in 2006 when every prick on TV was proudly proclaiming "THANKS (insert band name here), LOVING THAT"! (Shoot yourself for this, Iain Lee).

Even now an inordinate amount of people feel the need to say chavvy shit like "Get in", or its equally scummy cousin "Get on".

Remember when the fake music press resorted to calling band members by their band names? Like; "This week in Smash Hits; Damon Blur squares off against Keith Prodigy".

Thank god that's over at least.

We're not immune to it on this lovely message board either . How about years ago when lots of people were ending post with the phrase "Hmmm m'dear" or simply "This" to agree with the above post.

I can't begin to express how much I truly, utterly hate this crap.

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-09-18, 08:22 PM
Honestly the movie isn't out yet and I'm already sick of it. I like Star Wars as movies and the occasional comic series and video game but overall I find myself not caring to see because NOTHING JJ Abrams has done has impressed me he's IMHO one of the worst directors in Hollywood.

The only good thing that Star Wars 7 has done is that he's not directing Star Trek: Beyond and his departure also got rid of Orci and Kurtzman. Maybe Simon Pegg and Justin Lin can get me to watch it.

Auntie Slag
2015-09-18, 08:26 PM
Do you reckon they'll kill younglings?

Cliffjumper
2015-09-18, 08:27 PM
So the Jon Snow stuff has already been revealed because they splash it up on news pages. Feckers.

How is Jon Snow not being dead a spoiler? Like, seriously? Even in the Sunbow version it can't have been all that convincing. If you don't see his head sliced off or smashed to bits he's alive; Martin's never going to off a major character with a bit of a stabbing.

SPOILERBOWL: BRING THE HYPE.

Erm, back on topic... Was "eh" until that bit at the end of the trailer. Oh yes.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-18, 08:32 PM
What hacks me off is the Buzzfeeds of this world cracking on with the "will Kit Harrington be on set for the beginning of season whatever it is because I've lost count".

At the very ****ing least he needs to crop up in the next episode to play a corpse regardless of whether Melisandre does the foreshadowed thing or not. AARRRGHHHHHHH,

I've had five years of that cliffhanger and the clickbait sites are acting like we've not reasoned it out.

Cliffjumper
2015-09-18, 08:43 PM
The internet reaction to something that's been in print since 2011 was just bizarre. Thank God facebook wasn't around when Titanic was out.

Seriously though, fatboy better get done writing Winds of Winter before I have to compromise one of my four remaining principles and watch the Peter Jackson version.

Skyquake87
2015-09-18, 09:37 PM
I watch Thrones (can't be arsed with the books now we're Five Seasons deep, plus I'm a philistine) and have found it easy to avoid spoilers through indifference to all the 'trending now' and 'news' (its not news if its about TV is it, really?) about anything connected with TV/ celebrities/ wacky 'you won't believe this groom's reaction to this unfunny prank' style bullshit. The internet to me is like Closer magazine, or anyone of those shrieking day glo rags, and the print versions of those things I've no interest in and can easily switch off from electronic click bait of the same. I haven't the time, for one thing.

I do recall the huge furore when Metro printed a review of the finale of Season 3 (fair game, as it had aired on the UK the night before, and this wasn't an unusual thing for a then daily column titled 'last nights TV' to do...) ,and loads of people wrote in moaning about how disgraceful it was because they'd not watched it yet on their catch up/ streaming. Jesus. It was easy enough to avoid by not reading the column.

ANYWAY. Star Wars. Will probably see it at some point? I dunno, I recognise how important SW is, but I just can't get into it at all. The original triliogy is risible enough, before we even get to the "jumped up firework display of a toy advert" of the prequels (so good, I've still not seen Episodes 2 & 3). And do I feel I'm missing out? No, not really. These will basically have to have a good plot and some acting in that doesn't make my toes curl, sensible use of special effects (not so bloody obvious that you can tell its just everyone standing in a green room with everything painted in with CGI afterwards) and absolutely no boring arse about trade federations.

inflatable dalek
2015-09-21, 08:59 AM
When I did the tour of Pinewood yesterday the guide told up Star Wars has pretty much booked up the entire lot as it is now solidly for the next ten years. To the point they're having to build a new studio down the road just for Star Wars so they can give other films a chance. So I hope it's a success because otherwise that's going to be a bit embarrassing. "Sorry Pinewood, we're canceling the solo movie about that giggling midget guy who sat next to Lando in Jedi, I don't know, maybe give the new stages over to flats or something?"

A lot of the people who work there are clearly unhappy with all the extra security Star Wars brings, there was an awful lot of moaning about all the extra concentration camp style security fences that have been put in over the last couple of years making it impossible to get from one bit of the studio to the other.

I mean, "I'd love to show you the field from Carry on Camping where Barbra Windsor's bea flew off, but Star Wars won't let us" is not a sentence you expect to hear.

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-09-21, 09:19 AM
"Sorry Pinewood, we're canceling the solo movie about that giggling midget guy who sat next to Lando in Jedi, I don't know, maybe give the new stages over to flats or something?"

Nien Numb (or summat like that)? I had a toy of that dude! I had no Falcon for him to co-pilot though, so he was rather random (and probably bought on clearance!).

I'm imagining a road trip style film, where Nien Numb teams up with Chewbacca to go find the planet that Jabba The Hutt got his dancing girls from. The entire dialogue of the film is unintelligible, but largely consists of bitching and grumbling about only being the co-pilot, and how Han and Lando never let them do the cool stuff.

Summerhayes
2015-09-21, 03:45 PM
Yay star wars!
I've always had a weird relationship with star wars. I say I'm not super into it but I know all the characters, I play the games, I've got posters and models and whatnot, and when I saw the trailer at the cinema I got serious goosebumps and butterflies. I think it's just that I'm not as into it as some people, and would put it below numerous other geeky interests.

Long story short: I'm hugely excited to see it in the cinema.

Cliffjumper
2015-09-21, 04:27 PM
Yeh, I'm about the same with SW - I've seen the three films they made several times over, I know which one IG-88 is, "It's a trap", the bit where the Stormtrooper walks into the door, Alec Guinness totalling failing to hide how much he hates what he's doing and still knocking lumps off everyone, etc. - but the whole expanded universe and everything leaves me cold.

The film trailers so far point to a genuine attempt to repossess a bunch of fun fantasy-action films from the joyless nerds, and for that I am thankful.

EDIT: And seriously, they're doing another X-Treme Star Trek? Why? Paramount have a properly popular franchise to be dealing with, why are they wasting time on that rubbish?

Warcry
2015-09-21, 05:45 PM
I was a huge Star Wars fan in my late teens and even decade ago I would have been super-hyped for this, but at the moment I find that I don't care even a little bit. The prequels were terrible. The EU has lost most of its' sense of fun and collapsed into a black hole of super-violent galaxy-shattering "epics" that take themselves too seriously. They haven't even made a video game I was genuinely tempted by for ten years. It's been too long since I've enjoyed something with "Star Wars" on the label and my love for the series has long since withered and died.

Also, the fact that they've brought back pension-age versions of the original cast has left me thinking that this will be a hollow attempt to recapture the old magic without any understanding of why it worked so well in the first place. You know, sort of like ReGeneration 1...

But in spite of all that, I really do hope this turns out to be a good movie, or at least a fun one. If the reviews bear this out...

The film trailers so far point to a genuine attempt to repossess a bunch of fun fantasy-action films from the joyless nerds
...I'll check it out eventually. But "joyless" is just about a perfect description of how Star Wars has felt for me for a long time, and I'm expecting more of the same from this.

Summerhayes
2015-09-21, 05:56 PM
The EU has lost most of its' sense of fun and collapsed into a black hole of super-violent galaxy-shattering "epics" that take themselves too seriously.
As part of announcing the new films they denounced the while EU as non canon so at least they feel the same way about it.

Also, the fact that they've brought back pension-age versions of the original cast has left me thinking that this will be a hollow attempt to recapture the old magic
I'm hoping the old guard are only going to be appearing in the Obi-Wan kind of role, rather than as the main focus.

.EDIT: And seriously, they're doing another X-Treme Star Trek? Why? Paramount have a properly popular franchise to be dealing with, why are they wasting time on that rubbish?
Pretty much ditches the old writing and directing team, I believe, so it might at least come across like Star Trek! One thing those films proved was that Abrams is suited to making Star Wars.

inflatable dalek
2015-09-21, 05:57 PM
EDIT: And seriously, they're doing another X-Treme Star Trek? Why? Paramount have a properly popular franchise to be dealing with, why are they wasting time on that rubbish?

Apparently they decided to do another based on the box office rather than what you thought of the first one.

Cliffjumper
2015-09-21, 06:17 PM
But didn't the second one really not make much money? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Trek_Into_Darkness#Box_office sounds like a qualified success rather than "OMFG must make more to continue minting money!". In a climate where any old rope makes much more than that it's hard to see why they're rushing, though I do like the "yeh, 50th Anniversary" thing, which is decent spin for "there's no way we're stupid enough to put it out anywhere near Star Wars".

inflatable dalek
2015-09-21, 07:53 PM
According to that it surpassed the "Lifetime international earnings" of its predecessor, which presumably means the Chinese have justified the new one.

Whilst Star Wars may be a factor (IIRC Patrick Stewart was keen for TNG3 to not go up against Phantom Menace, though I don't think there waa a chance of a three year gap at that point anyway), if they were hugely worried there'd be delaying it for a decade.

I would imagine the bigger reason for making it a 50th anniversary film is the 50th Bond made a billion dollars and is currently in the top 20 grossing films of all time (and was even top ten at one point), an insane increase on previous films in the series. It may not do that well, but there's clearly an advantage in a year of free promotion.

I also suspect the Trek people are kicking themselves their abandoned plan for a Shatner cameo in the first one was basically used for the very well received Tom Baker's showing in Day of the Doctor (a token handwave for the fans who demand sych things and then basically having Tom Baker/William Shatner there with their current successor as themselves to all intents and purposes. I can't see most people caring that Shatner is visibly too old to be a hologram from before he died anymore than the general audience cared that at some point in the future the Doctor will use regeneration to revisit old faces is an unlikely contrivance), that would have kicked ass if just reused for the next film. Especially, as harsh as it sounds, without the weight of Nimoy as well--which is of course why they cut it.

EDIT: And anniversary films fo seem to be a thing for Paramount. Since the Trek film started, the 40th is the only major anniversary not to have one, and the 20th/25th/30th (the last two with TV pushes as well) were heavily promoted as such.

Warcry
2015-09-21, 08:24 PM
As part of announcing the new films they denounced the while EU as non canon so at least they feel the same way about it.
And with good cause! I mean even if the bulk of it was good, how in the world do you make a movie in a universe with so much world-changing backstory spread across hundreds of different bits of source material that nobody is going to read between the new movie and the old one? Especially since (lets be honest) what everyone wants to see is lightsaber fights, scrappy Rebels, evil-but-cool Imperials and space dogfights that defy the laws of physics. Not a primer on those self-mutilating aliens from another galaxy who committed space-genocide and crashed moons into their planets or that one time those bugs mind-raped everyone or how they turned Han and Leia's son into Space Hitler because some fanboys were mad about that book Matt Stover wrote about him because it had moral relativism in it and that made them uncomfortable.

Plus 90% of the EU was ass. I mean I loved Grand Admiral Thrawn and the X-Wing books rocked, but did anyone really want The Crystal Star or the Yuuzhan Vong (aka Edgy Teen Fanfiction: the Species) to be canon for the new films?

I'm hoping the old guard are only going to be appearing in the Obi-Wan kind of role, rather than as the main focus.
Based on the bits of promo I've seen, I'm not entirely sure I believe that there are any new characters. Well, other than that one guy who the internet immediately decided to hate because he was black.

Whilst Star Wars may be a factor (IIRC Patrick Stewart was keen for TNG3 to not go up against Phantom Menace, though I don't think there waa a chance of a three year gap at that point anyway), if they were hugely worried there'd be delaying it for a decade.
They probably want to avoid the immediate embarrassment of being blown out of the water within a month or two of Star Wars coming out, but beyond that I think you're right that they don't care all that much. Trek has never been a hugely successful film franchise anyway. Pre-reboot they made a good niche for themselves by keeping the budget down and turning a tidy profit on a slower-paced, less flashy film than your standard sci-fi fare. Which makes perfect sense to me, because given their TV roots that's what Star Trek is supposed to be to most of its fanbase.

(Personally I'm just waiting for the movie series to die off so we can get another Trek TV series...)

inflatable dalek
2015-09-21, 08:52 PM
I see a lot of "Trek works best on TV!" claims, but I'd take even the worst of the 12 films over all of Voyager and Enterprise.

Mind, I'd also say the last film comes in for an ludicrously unfair level of criticism. Not liking the film is fine, saying it's a total rip-off of Wrath of Khan as per the received internet wisdom is just plain wrong. It has one scene and one line of dialogue nicked from Khan, otherwise the plots of the two films are totally different. Having the same villain doesn't count unless you also consider The Dark Knight is a rip off the Adam West Batman film just because the Joker is in both.

Hell, considering Into Darkness is about a secret cable within Star Fleet trying to start a war with the Klingons and both films end with Kirk giving a "Current right wing American politics is shit, just be excellent to one another!" speech it's far more like Undiscovered Country.

It also amused me how there was a big fan reaction of "Robocop told Kirk about Section 31! They're supposed to be secret! THIS WOULD NEVER HAPPEN!!!!!!!".

Which ignores:

A: We know about Section 31 at all because Sloan told Bashir about it.

And

B: Robocop was sending Kirk to die, what he knew or didn't know didn't matter.

Oh,
And

C: Section 31's headquarters in London was blown up by Mikey from Doctor Who. Hard to keep that a secret.

Warcry
2015-09-21, 09:32 PM
I see a lot of "Trek works best on TV!" claims, but I'd take even the worst of the 12 films over all of Voyager and Enterprise.
Most of the last season of Enterprise was comfortably better than all but a few episodes of TOS and TNG (if not quite up to DS9's standards). I just wish they'd figured out sooner that they should actually make use of the premise of the series instead of actively working against it.

I don't mean this as a slight against the older Trek movies, but Star Trek would definitely work better on the small screen right now. The big-budget sci-fi genre is nothing but CGI oneupmanship and hollow action today, and there's absolutely no way any of the good Trek movies would ever get made in today's Hollywood. Can you imagine The Wrath of Khan or Undiscovered Country getting anywhere near release without massive rewrites to slap in more action sequences? Even First Contact, which has all the trappings of a big action blockbuster, would be far too slow-paced for modern filmmakers.

Meanwhile character-driven, arc-based storytelling is at its peak on TV, and that's the sort of stuff that has characterized Trek at its finest (i.e. not Voyager).

Mind, I'd also say the last film comes in for an ludicrously unfair level of criticism. Not liking the film is fine, saying it's a total rip-off of Wrath of Khan as per the received internet wisdom is just plain wrong. It has one scene and one line of dialogue nicked from Khan, otherwise the plots of the two films are totally different. Having the same villain doesn't count unless you also consider The Dark Knight is a rip off the Adam West Batman film just because the Joker is in both.
You're absolutely right. It's not a rip-off at all, it's just a poor movie all around.

My favourite part is how they cast a blue-eyed Englishman as a guy named Khan Noonien Singh. I mean, shit, even in the 60s they knew enough to least cast a passably brown guy in the role.

Clay
2015-09-21, 09:43 PM
I want to be excited about it, but I just can't muster it. Like some other people have expressed, I know a lot about the franchise but just can't get enthusiastic about it anymore. I suppose the anticipation and subsequent letdown from the first prequel still stings me.

I will say that the prequels were the coal that yielded the diamonds that are the Red Letter Media reviews, and those are worthwhile thing unto themselves.

For all the people that are excited for Episode 7, I'm happy for you. Hope it turns out alright, and I'm sure I'll see it at some point.

Cliffjumper
2015-09-21, 09:52 PM
Well, Clay's just made me look mental. Everyone add him to your ignore lists so this post makes sense.

Yup... that was actually part of my big problem with the first Abrams film (not seen the second as I tend to avoid wasting time on follow-ups to shit films when there hasn't been some big upheaval) is that it was so generic, really. Quips replace chemistry and characterisation, CGI replaces excitement and holy **** we'd better make this epic. A lot felt shoe-horned in to compete with other stuff whereas the TOS movies always pottered along in their own little sub-genre as did the two TNG ones I've watched (this is my to-watch list (http://letterboxd.com/tomprankerd/watchlist/by/name/); every film on there has potential to be more stimulating than the best-possible "Hey, that was an alright episode of TNG" reaction Insurrection and Nemesis can hope for). ST08 was just a generic dumber-than-most blockbuster and another reason why Simon Pegg should only be allowed to work with Edgar Wright.

inflatable dalek
2015-09-21, 10:39 PM
Most of the last season of Enterprise was comfortably better than all but a few episodes of TOS and TNG (if not quite up to DS9's standards). I just wish they'd figured out sooner that they should actually make use of the premise of the series instead of actively working against it.

If so then fair enough, but I made an effort to watch the "No honest, it's good now!" shows in season 4 and if that's what fandom was promoting as the good stuff then "Good stuff" boils down to "We've given up on every one but the hardcore fans...let's make lots of references and hope that counts!". Having a faithfully recreated constitution class ship is smart. Having it be anything other than the Enterprise will only excite two people, only one of who won't go "This contradicts The Tholian Web!"


Idon't mean this as a slight against the older Trek movies, but Star Trek would definitely work better on the small screen right now. The big-budget sci-fi genre is nothing but CGI oneupmanship and hollow action today, and there's absolutely no way any of the good Trek movies would ever get made in today's Hollywood. Can you imagine The Wrath of Khan or Undiscovered Country getting anywhere near release without massive rewrites to slap in more action sequences? Even First Contact, which has all the trappings of a big action blockbuster, would be far too slow-paced for modern filmmakers.

Oh sure, but both those films are big visual epics by the standard of the time. It's a credit to Khan people can view it now as a successful claustrophobic thriller and still enjoy it. The standard for action films should keep moving though (and it will be hard for Star Wars not to feel reactionary now. Guardians of the Galaxy basically treated Star Wars like the first Star Wars treated Flash Gordon: "Here's a love letter to our childhood brought up to date for today's kids!" So where does that leave actual Star Wars? Especially from the same studio?), equally the original Star Wars looks like a cheap TV film compared to even the Prequels.


Meanwhile character-driven, arc-based storytelling is at its peak on TV, and that's the sort of stuff that has characterized Trek at its finest (i.e. not Voyager).

I'd agree DS9 is character/arc driven and is brilliant. But the Star Trek people remember is the original and (very much in second place despite being the most popular Trek show on first broadcast, I think the films have made the difference here) TNG. The ones that did great self contained "hour" episodes that could be shown in any order and at thieir best could make a great film. City on the Edge of Forever could be a brilliant film (anyone who complains how compressed modern storytelling is should be forced to list what a ridiculous amount of plot is in that one. It's so packed Hitler winning world war 2 is an aside! ), Yesterday's Enterprise would be a brilliant film
Best of Both Worlds is literally a brilliant film. The big problrm with the TNG films is they're not as cinematic as many episodes! Which isn't the same as saying Trek can't do cinematic. Even the worst/cheapest of the Tos films have Proper Blockbuster ideas behind them, however poor the execution (Kirk fights God!") or dated they look now (a lot of Khan's effects were groundbreaking. The Genesis simulation made Pixar didn't it?).


ou're absolutely right. It's not a rip-off at all, it's just a poor movie all around.

And if you think that, that's cool. My issue is only with the aspects of the fandom who treat it like the G1ers treat Bay. But...


[My favourite part is how they cast a blue-eyed Englishman as a guy named Khan Noonien Singh. I mean, shit, even in the 60s they knew enough to least cast a passably brown guy in the role.


Cumberbatch is as close to being an Indian Shiek as Ricardo was. Both are horribly racist casting. I'd agree Cumberbatch was horrific casting, but then the entire character is appalling if you apply the same standard.

FWIW I accept Ricardo by going "He's only called an Indian once by one clearly mentally vulnerable character who just looked at him". Cumberbatch I can forgive as an acceptable retcon so as not to have what is now a cliché as a terrorist.

The name I forgive by Khan presumably being a genetic mish mash. Plus Data's creator is named after the same friend of Roddenbery's with the pronunciation shifted and I've never seen anyone complain Noonian Soong is a white guy (despite them having a Japanese American actor in reserve if Spiner couldn't cope with three roles in one show).

Sades
2015-09-22, 12:56 AM
Almost everyone is probably going to be some shade of brown by then, so it doesn't matter!

Star Wars: Haven't gotten on the hype train yet. Might not. But then, I might!

Is generally how things go nowadays. I'm a "bad nerd".

Auntie S, I had no idea you had such a deep hatred for such things on the internet. Sorry for past and future postings of mine you might at some point pass over, I suppose, as that sort of garbage is pretty much my bag. :lol:

GoT: I've stopped caring about spoilers. Can't avoid them, not even going to try. I'm like three-four years behind the curve, anyway, who gives a ****.

(Except where Hound's hint-dropping about the books I haven't finished is concerned, that shit still presses aaaaaall the wrong buttons for some reason)

inflatable dalek
2015-09-23, 06:07 AM
Almost everyone is probably going to be some shade of brown by then, so it doesn't matter!


Khan is from 1996!

I've always been mildly surprised Wrath kept that date when it was so much closer and as a film it was likely to still be on TV when that year rolled past. Mind, Into Darkness is odd in that it'll cheerfully change Khan's ethnicity but jump through hoops not to properly explain his backstory so as not to make a potential fanboy irritating decision about the idea of a world war in the 90's.

I would say Into Darkness isn't as good as the first and is a very odd film in places (Carol Marcus and Robocop feel like two people who've never met, let alone a father and daughter), but it's still enjoyable and as unsubtle as it is the straight up anger at the use of military drones in war is both very Trek and a fresh thing the franchise hasn't done before (indeed, had any big film addressed the ethics of drones by that point?)

In terms of the old guard coming back for Star Wars, to an extent I'd agree with Warcry that it's playing it too safe (mind, I've a feeling The Phantom Menace must have about the same number of characters from the original trilogy in it). But as long as they're treated right, one film at least should be a good old romp. I'm assuming it'll basically be passing the torch to the noobs to carry the rest of the trilogy with reduced roles at best for them in the next two. I'm also pretty much convinced Ford is going to get the heroic death for Solo he was keen on during the originals.

Summerhayes
2015-09-23, 06:51 AM
the straight up anger at the use of military drones in war is both very Trek and a fresh thing the franchise hasn't done before (indeed, had any big film addressed the ethics of drones by that point?)

I literally watched this the other day at my parents' house (my dad bought a new TV and wanted something Ultra HD) and I didn't pick up on anything that served as a drone analogue. What am I missing?

inflatable dalek
2015-09-23, 07:17 AM
Robocop wants the Enterprise to bomb Khan from the edge of the neutral zone with the new super super super remote control torpedoes. Scotty basically gives a speech about how wrong this is to camera about this being a bad thing and is ultimately vindicated as Robocop is a war mongering loon who doesn't care about casualties. Kirk's final speech is basically "Just because we're scared of Klingon's/foreigners doesn't mean we should bloe them up from a distance" as well.

Summerhayes
2015-09-23, 12:04 PM
Ah, I got that they were against illegally killing a terrorist without trial who was hiding in a foreign location (had they killed Bin Laden when this came out) and that Scotty was against having weapons he was unfamiliar with on board but I never really associated them with drones.

inflatable dalek
2015-09-23, 12:42 PM
Well how does the US Government deal with threats to freedom hidden in other countries these days? I'd say the "New Torpedo"=Drone thing is pretty much a direct, intentional analogy.

Summerhayes
2015-09-23, 02:21 PM
No, you're probably right. I certainly understood it as a deliberate reference to preemptive strike foreign policy.

So, that Star Wars hey? The bad lad has a cool looking sword.

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-09-23, 03:09 PM
EDIT: And seriously, they're doing another X-Treme Star Trek? Why? Paramount have a properly popular franchise to be dealing with, why are they wasting time on that rubbish?

To be fair Simon Pegg is co-writing it and he wants it to go back to roots of TOS mixed with GotG style fun. Justin Lin who directed one of the better Fast and Furious films knows how to deal with action that you can actual understand what is going on and knows how to show a multi-racial cast coming together.

I don't know if it'll work but it sounds a lot better than Abrams' crap.

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-09-23, 03:15 PM
I see a lot of "Trek works best on TV!" claims, but I'd take even the worst of the 12 films over all of Voyager and Enterprise.

Honestly I will take the worst episodes of Voyager and Enterprise (which thanks to the reboot is now the only TV show in the new canon) over 11 and 12 any day of the week.

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-09-23, 03:50 PM
No, you're probably right. I certainly understood it as a deliberate reference to preemptive strike foreign policy.

So, that Star Wars hey? The bad lad has a cool looking sword.

Indeed he does, though the crossguard looks likely to cut off the hand of a careless wielder! The lightsaber I'm more interested in, though, is the one Finn is seen holding ignited in one of the trailers. Rumour has it that it is Anakin Skywalker's old lightsaber, taken from him by Obi-Wan following their duel in III, and then passed down to Luke in IV. It was lost at Bespin (along with Luke's right hand, of course) in V, so if online scuttlebutt is proven right, how did it come to reappear and come into Finn's possession? Is Finn a Jedi (or potential Jedi), or is he just using whatever weapon he has on him to defend himself in the trailer?

Summerhayes
2015-09-23, 03:52 PM
If nobody gets stabbed by one of the little cross - guard beams on that light saber by the end, I'll be very surprised.

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-09-23, 03:59 PM
Yeah, I can see that happening too.

What do you think of Kylo Ren's look overall? I rather like it - presuming it is intended to intentionally ape Vader's garb and mask. Suitably villain-ish. But is he Sith? And if, the master or the apprentice? Based on his age, he's more likely to be still learning his "trade", I'd have thought. If he is the apprentice, who is the master?

Summerhayes
2015-09-23, 04:02 PM
He definitely looks cool. I don't know yet if he's iconic in the way Vader and Maul are, but I guess only time will tell.

Warcry
2015-09-23, 06:02 PM
Quips replace chemistry and characterisation, CGI replaces excitement and holy **** we'd better make this epic.
Actually, one of the things about the first film that surprised me was how much chemistry Pine, Quinto and that guy who played Éomer actually had. Obviously they weren't as good as Shatner, Nimoy and Kelley, but there was a lot of potential there and the scripts have pretty much squandered it so far. And then on top of that Simon Pegg is just completely awful, Sulu and Chekov are barely in the thing and they completely ruined Carol Marcus. Just about the only one who comes away looking better than the original is Uhura, and "token black who answers the space-phone" isn't exactly hard to beat.

I do think they could make a good Trek film with this cast, but only if the new director is willing to abandon the "epic" action genre and make something more akin to the Trek films of old.

(this is my to-watch list (http://letterboxd.com/tomprankerd/watchlist/by/name/); every film on there has potential to be more stimulating than the best-possible "Hey, that was an alright episode of TNG" reaction Insurrection and Nemesis can hope for).
Nemesis gets a lot of crap, and some of it well-deserved, but it's still enjoyable enough in a G1 cartoon sort of way. It's terrible and it knows its terrible, but as long as you go into it looking for something terrible to laugh at there are worse ways to kill a couple hours.

Insurrection on the other hand is an awful film that shits on seven seasons and two movies' worth of previous characterizations. But worse than that, it's boring.

If so then fair enough, but I made an effort to watch the "No honest, it's good now!" shows in season 4 and if that's what fandom was promoting as the good stuff then "Good stuff" boils down to "We've given up on every one but the hardcore fans...let's make lots of references and hope that counts!". Having a faithfully recreated constitution class ship is smart. Having it be anything other than the Enterprise will only excite two people, only one of who won't go "This contradicts The Tholian Web!"
Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying it was all great by any means. But I think we tend to forget just how bad some stretches of TOS and TNG actually were. Even the good TNG seasons only held my attention around 50% of the time on my most recent rewatch. Season 4 of Enterprise had its share of dumb episodes (like the Mirror Universe ones) alongside a few that I'd consider legit classics, but it was never boring.

Oh sure, but both those films are big visual epics by the standard of the time. It's a credit to Khan people can view it now as a successful claustrophobic thriller and still enjoy it.
I'm not so sure I'd agree with that where The Wrath of Khan is concerned. They made the thing on a budget of barely $11 million (the same as what the original, then-unknown Star Wars cost five years before that). That's not exactly a big-budget action film, even in those days (and barely a quarter of what they spent to make TMP a few years earlier). To be honest I think the reduced budget is part of why it's such a good movie...they had to be frugal and save their FX budget for the shots that they really needed, keeping the production from disappearing down an effects rabbit-hole like the first one did (and like most of today's action films do).

The Undiscovered Country also wound up dealing with a smaller budget than they'd anticipated since The Final Frontier had been such a flop, though they had more cash to play with than TWOK. It's definitely more of an action movie than Khan, but even by early 90s standards I'd say it was pretty tame (though much of that is due to the main cast being pensioners).

The standard for action films should keep moving though (and it will be hard for Star Wars not to feel reactionary now. Guardians of the Galaxy basically treated Star Wars like the first Star Wars treated Flash Gordon: "Here's a love letter to our childhood brought up to date for today's kids!" So where does that leave actual Star Wars? Especially from the same studio?), equally the original Star Wars looks like a cheap TV film compared to even the Prequels.
I actually don't disagree with that. I just don't take it to the same conclusions you do. Yes, the standards should keep moving. But they should keep moving in terms of quality, not quantity.

The original Star Wars movies (sans any of Lucas's ego-stroking revisions) have badly-dated effects but they're still far, far better films than the Prequels with their zillions of effects per minute could ever hope to be. And even though the effects are dated, they feel more important because with the prequels you know everything you're seeing is fake with actors green-screened in front of it. And honestly I find the same thing with a lot of modern action-fests -- the more CGI there is the less weight any of it carries because you know that nothing you're seeing is real. Whereas good CGI that's used sparingly carries a lot more "oomph".

That's part of the reason why I enjoy the first TF movie more than any of the sequels. The robots don't transform much until the final sequence, which gives them more of an impact than the sequels that have them running around in almost every scene. It makes them feel special in a way that the other movies just don't.

CGI is great but a lot of filmmakers use it as a crutch to hide the fact that their movie doesn't have more than forty minutes worth of actual plot.

I'd agree DS9 is character/arc driven and is brilliant. But the Star Trek people remember is the original and (very much in second place despite being the most popular Trek show on first broadcast, I think the films have made the difference here) TNG. The ones that did great self contained "hour" episodes that could be shown in any order and at thieir best could make a great film.
TNG is an odd beast actually, because I think it tried to be character-driven at times but the realities of being a syndicated show in the 80s really dragged it down. There are a ton of character and story arcs scattered throughout the series but they're usually only brought up once or twice per season and take the whole seven seasons to finally pay off. I think it would be a hugely different show if they'd had the freedom of today's TV landscape to work with.

Which is sort of what I'm hoping for when I say I want to see a new Trek TV show now.

Best of Both Worlds is literally a brilliant film. The big problrm with the TNG films is they're not as cinematic as many episodes!
Agreed. First Contact is really the only one that got that right, in my books.

Though I think that's really just a symptom of the real problem, which was letting the TV people produce the movies to start with. The TOS movies got good once they binned Roddenberry, and in retrospect the TNG movies really should have brought in a different crew and left Burman, Piller, Braga and the like to concentrate on making terrible Voyager episodes.

Cumberbatch is as close to being an Indian Shiek as Ricardo was. Both are horribly racist casting. I'd agree Cumberbatch was horrific casting, but then the entire character is appalling if you apply the same standard.
Right, but horribly racist casting was the rule of the day in the 1960s. In the 2010s there are talented actors of almost any ethnic background you can think of bouncing around Hollywood. Couldn't they have called up Naveen Andrews or someone?

In terms of the old guard coming back for Star Wars, to an extent I'd agree with Warcry that it's playing it too safe (mind, I've a feeling The Phantom Menace must have about the same number of characters from the original trilogy in it). But as long as they're treated right, one film at least should be a good old romp. I'm assuming it'll basically be passing the torch to the noobs to carry the rest of the trilogy with reduced roles at best for them in the next two. I'm also pretty much convinced Ford is going to get the heroic death for Solo he was keen on during the originals.
It'd be nice to see them go in that direction but I do fear that it'll wind up falling to the same trap as the Star Trek films, where they intended to replace the originals over the course of a few films but never did because they were afraid of tanking their box office returns.

[EDIT]Oh, and I think Kylo Ren looks totally forgettable. Like, to the point where I needed to Google him because I'd forgotten what he looked like. His mask reminds me of a Cylon.

inflatable dalek
2015-09-23, 07:11 PM
Actually, one of the things about the first film that surprised me was how much chemistry Pine, Quinto and that guy who played Éomer actually had. Obviously they weren't as good as Shatner, Nimoy and Kelley, but there was a lot of potential there and the scripts have pretty much squandered it so far. And then on top of that Simon Pegg is just completely awful, Sulu and Chekov are barely in the thing and they completely ruined Carol Marcus. Just about the only one who comes away looking better than the original is Uhura, and "token black who answers the space-phone" isn't exactly hard to beat.

I'd agree the cast is generally fine (Urban as McCoy has never really worked for me though, he's the only one who feels like he's doing a full on impression of his predecessor and that puts me off. Ironically that seems to be what many people like about him. Mind, he basically made the last film Judge Dredd Vs. Robocop, which was nice), I even like Scotty! The fact he has Deep Roy as his sidekick and got to have his own random plot in the last one was actually one of the things I enjoyed about it.

I don't think Saldana should be underestimated though, the part as written isn't hugely brilliant (the girl one gets to be a girlfriend to one of the two leads!), but she's got enough presence to bump up what's written. I'd say she's actually replaced McCoy as the "Third One" in the trio, and it's easy to see why she's had the best career outside of the Trek movies out of all of them except the with-a-few-years-head-start Pegg.

What was going on with Carol Marcus? Apparently they cut a line explaining why she has a completely different accent to the original (I guess someone thought that would be silly with the whole Khan thing) but that's by far the least of of her problems. The original had great chemistry with Kirk considering we only saw the aftermath of their relationship, this one seems like a walking plank of wood.



Nemesis gets a lot of crap, and some of it well-deserved, but it's still enjoyable enough in a G1 cartoon sort of way. It's terrible and it knows its terrible, but as long as you go into it looking for something terrible to laugh at there are worse ways to kill a couple hours.

I'd say part of its problem is it thinks it has something profound to say about ageing and death and individuality (though the "Some people are just ****ing unsavable" message in Data's speech to Picard about the differences between them and their doubles is completely against the spirit of Trek) but it's all quite silly. And everyone looks and feels so old! The original cast didn't feel this ancient in their last film despite mostly being older, everyone seems so tired despite the attempts to convince us Picard is a super action hero (there is nothing, and I mean nothing, as silly in the last two films as a character in his 70's single handedly killing a load of monsters with guns).

Insurrection on the other hand is an awful film that shits on seven seasons and two movies' worth of previous characterizations. But worse than that, it's boring.

Yeah, I quite enjoyed it at the time--and the location work is actually quite lush and gives the outside stuff an more expensive feel than that in most of the other films--but it's aged very badly because once you start to think about it the whole thing just falls apart. I've seen people online make excellent arguments as to why what Picard does is the right thing to have done, but the film itself completely drops the ball on it and makes him seem a horrible person. The "The rights of smug rich white people are important!" aspect of the plot is basically racist as well.

I mean, what sort of film makes you hope the villains win because who the heroes are protecting are such terrible people? "We won't pick up a gun to fight for our freedom... but we'll let you're people fight and die for us Captain. Nothing hypocritical there. Oh, that guy in engineering who got set on fire? No, he can't stay on our planet to heal, we must keep this place a secret. Yeah, shame a lot of people must have died in that battle, best not mention it".



I'm not so sure I'd agree with that where The Wrath of Khan is concerned. They made the thing on a budget of barely $11 million (the same as what the original, then-unknown Star Wars cost five years before that). That's not exactly a big-budget action film, even in those days (and barely a quarter of what they spent to make TMP a few years earlier). To be honest I think the reduced budget is part of why it's such a good movie...they had to be frugal and save their FX budget for the shots that they really needed, keeping the production from disappearing down an effects rabbit-hole like the first one did (and like most of today's action films do).

The Undiscovered Country also wound up dealing with a smaller budget than they'd anticipated since The Final Frontier had been such a flop, though they had more cash to play with than TWOK. It's definitely more of an action movie than Khan, but even by early 90s standards I'd say it was pretty tame (though much of that is due to the main cast being pensioners).

Don't forget with Khan though that they were able to save money in so many places from reusing stuff from the first (half the film is shot on the Enterprise bridge as three different locations!) that the model stuff was able to have a good amount of cash pumped into it. The Reliant is as good as anything in the first film, and generally everything still look fantastic, it's only really the nebula effect which looks a bit dated now, it's very clearly disco lights in a water tank in a couple of places.

I think having ILM onboard helped as well, the Trek films they worked on generally look much better today than those they didn't. Even Search (which is probably their weakest) knocks spots of V and the two TNG films they didn't do.


The original Star Wars movies (sans any of Lucas's ego-stroking revisions) have badly-dated effects but they're still far, far better films than the Prequels with their zillions of effects per minute could ever hope to be. And even though the effects are dated, they feel more important because with the prequels you know everything you're seeing is fake with actors green-screened in front of it. And honestly I find the same thing with a lot of modern action-fests -- the more CGI there is the less weight any of it carries because you know that nothing you're seeing is real. Whereas good CGI that's used sparingly carries a lot more "oomph".

I'd say the "Models feel more real than CGI" thing is more psychological than anything based in reality, after all, a model is still fake thing. Both still take the same amount of time, effort and artistry to create as well. I think people forget how much poor modelwork in cheap films there was as well.




TNG is an odd beast actually, because I think it tried to be character-driven at times but the realities of being a syndicated show in the 80s really dragged it down. There are a ton of character and story arcs scattered throughout the series but they're usually only brought up once or twice per season and take the whole seven seasons to finally pay off. I think it would be a hugely different show if they'd had the freedom of today's TV landscape to work with.

Yeah, it's odd to remember how exciting it was as a kid when TNG (or any show, KAAR coming back in Knight Rider was just as mind blowing) did a sequel. Q! Barcley! Mr. Mott.... well, maybe not that last one.

Which is sort of what I'm hoping for when I say I want to see a new Trek TV show now.

Oh absolutely, what a new Trek show (and I can see it happening for the same reason TNG happened: They've got these sets, props and costumes hanging about and only being used once every few years. So milk them! The only real deterent is TV Trek and Film Trek are now owned by two different companies so they'd need to sort something out for their usage) should do is what, for all its flaws, first season of Nex Gen did do. To not rely on past glories and to try and push as hard as possible to be a relevant and contemporary show.



Though I think that's really just a symptom of the real problem, which was letting the TV people produce the movies to start with. The TOS movies got good once they binned Roddenberry, and in retrospect the TNG movies really should have brought in a different crew and left Burman, Piller, Braga and the like to concentrate on making terrible Voyager episodes.

Yeah, that's part of the problem with Nemesis. They're trying to bring in fresh blood on the writing and directing, but it's still a by now clearly very tired Berman in charge and he has no idea how to make films.


Right, but horribly racist casting was the rule of the day in the 1960s. In the 2010s there are talented actors of almost any ethnic background you can think of bouncing around Hollywood. Couldn't they have called up Naveen Andrews or someone?

IIRC Benico Del Toro was actually their first choice but had to pull out, still the wrong ethnicity for the character but at least he'd have been closer to Ricardo.

My problem with Cumberbatch is first and foremost that he's quite poor in the role. There's some potentially interesting layers there--he's not a good man but his goals are actually sympathetic as his beef with Star Fleet is entirely over the mistreatment of his own people--but it's all just one note DEEP BOOMING VOICE stuff of the sort that makes me wonder why he's so highly rated.


It'd be nice to see them go in that direction but I do fear that it'll wind up falling to the same trap as the Star Trek films, where they intended to replace the originals over the course of a few films but never did because they were afraid of tanking their box office returns.

I think the advantage is how old all the originals are now. Basing an entire trilogy around them would be insane considering the odds of them all still being alive by the end of filming is hellish risky. Even the aliens seem to be covered by this, if they're going to force poor old Peter Mayhew into the Chewbacca costume still I'd say a recast there is very unlikey.

Don't get me wrong -- I'm not saying it was all great by any means. But I think we tend to forget just how bad some stretches of TOS and TNG actually were. Even the good TNG seasons only held my attention around 50% of the time on my most recent rewatch. Season 4 of Enterprise had its share of dumb episodes (like the Mirror Universe ones) alongside a few that I'd consider legit classics, but it was never boring.

See, boring is generally the word I'd use for the bulk of Enterprise and Voyager. Bad TNG and TOS can be painful, but they do feel like products of their time. Around the start of Voyager Trek got stuck in a 1994 rut and never really got out of it (most obviously from the really annoying continued refusal to have gay people in the future, even when on the same network as the with-actual-gays Buffy. Mind, that's still a bloody problem with the films, no Kirk having a threesome doesn't count) and became just the same thing over and over with the later episodes feeling like a bland decade old episode of television that's no more interesting than an episode of Stargate.

From what I saw, the last season of Enterprise struggled with its mini-arcs and two parters (apparently dictated by budget cuts rather than artistic intent) because it was a bunch of people who had no idea how to do anything but safe 1994 television struggling with the idea of 2004 like your gran with a Ipad.

Mind, all that said, Robocop basically played the same character in Enterprise as Into Darkness, so maybe it's more influential than I give it credit.

Selkadoom
2015-09-23, 08:09 PM
Yeah, I can see that happening too.

What do you think of Kylo Ren's look overall? I rather like it - presuming it is intended to intentionally ape Vader's garb and mask. Suitably villain-ish. But is he Sith? And if, the master or the apprentice? Based on his age, he's more likely to be still learning his "trade", I'd have thought. If he is the apprentice, who is the master?

A tough call and a reason I still detest the choice to effectively ignore the entirety of Star Wars Lore post Return. The Sith are constantly evolving and changing so with just shoe horning in a new duo, and it had better be a Duo and none of this One Sith bull, means that Its a crap shoot if we're gonna get gpod villains.

inflatable dalek
2015-09-23, 08:58 PM
I don't know, Darth Vader and the emperor wore the same clothes for decades. That doesn't sound like a group that are constantly evolving, at least when it comes to fashion. The Jedi seem to be the same as well, Obi-Wan and Yoda stuck in their uniform for years despite being in hiding as people who aren't supposed to be Jedi...

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-09-24, 06:40 AM
I don't know, Darth Vader and the emperor wore the same clothes for decades. That doesn't sound like a group that are constantly evolving, at least when it comes to fashion. The Jedi seem to be the same as well, Obi-Wan and Yoda stuck in their uniform for years despite being in hiding as people who aren't supposed to be Jedi...

Yes, this also struck me as odd. Perhaps the layered cream and brown robes look is the Star Wars equivalent of jeans and T-shirt? Everyone's wearing it, so may as well blend in. Actually, I expect I've just made poor old Sir Alec Guinness spin in his grave at the very thought of him wearing jeans (or their equivalent, at least). :lol:

Do you think Jedi and Sith wash much? If they stick to the same old robes day in, day out I have a bit of a worry they might be stinky old devils. Although at least most of Darth Vader's outfit looks wipe clean...

Q: How do you get a Jedi to take a shower?
A: You have to Force them. :sick:

inflatable dalek
2015-09-24, 07:14 AM
Maybe it was just dress down Friday everytime we saw the Jedi in the Prequels?

Mind, whilst I doubt they'll be actively retconed (films, even bad ones, have a lot more cultural impact than books or comics), I wouldn't be surprised if the Prequels are completely ignored by the new films. Tellingly none of the 500000 standalone films seems to be intersecting with them despite the fact that doing something like "McGreggor Kenobi has an adventure on Tatooine" would seem a no-brainer from a practical "The actor is still around and the right age" perspective. It would certainly seem easier to do than resurrecting Peter Cushing.

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-09-24, 09:46 AM
Random thought: Following on from Episode VII "The Force Awakens", could we see:

Episode VIII "The Force Realises it is Saturday and it Doesn't Need to Get Up Yet"

and

Episode IX "The Force Rolls Over, Farts, and Goes Back to Sleep"


A restless world demands to know!

Warcry
2015-09-24, 06:59 PM
I'd agree the cast is generally fine (Urban as McCoy has never really worked for me though, he's the only one who feels like he's doing a full on impression of his predecessor and that puts me off. Ironically that seems to be what many people like about him. Mind, he basically made the last film Judge Dredd Vs. Robocop, which was nice), I even like Scotty! The fact he has Deep Roy as his sidekick and got to have his own random plot in the last one was actually one of the things I enjoyed about it.
I'm exactly the opposite of you on this one. Scotty is the one that feels like an impression to me, one done by a hyperactive comedian who's not as funny as he thinks he is. His subplot in Into Darkness fell flat for me because he was impossible to take seriously no matter how serious of a situation he was put into. Jimmy Doohan didn't have much more to work with but he made Scotty feel like much more of a real person and less of a cartoon.

Whereas the new McCoy feels like a very different take on the character to me because it's not the 1960s anymore so he can't just spend 90% of his screen time being all "bloody space minorities, can't trust the lot of them!"

I don't think Saldana should be underestimated though, the part as written isn't hugely brilliant (the girl one gets to be a girlfriend to one of the two leads!), but she's got enough presence to bump up what's written. I'd say she's actually replaced McCoy as the "Third One" in the trio, and it's easy to see why she's had the best career outside of the Trek movies out of all of them except the with-a-few-years-head-start Pegg.
I've never seen another movie with her in it, honestly, so I can't say anything about her qualities as an actress. I don't really think the new movies treat the character well, though. In spite of mostly being a tokenistic background character in the original series, Uhura still somehow became an icon for black and women's rights. Being "the one that the male leads drool over" feels like a step back rather than forward.

She's definitely #3 in terms of screen time though, where the original was probably in the running with Chekov for the least. And if they ever go ahead and promote a character off of the ship the way they did with Sulu and Chekov in the original movies I suspect it'll be her.

What was going on with Carol Marcus? Apparently they cut a line explaining why she has a completely different accent to the original (I guess someone thought that would be silly with the whole Khan thing) but that's by far the least of of her problems. The original had great chemistry with Kirk considering we only saw the aftermath of their relationship, this one seems like a walking plank of wood.
The character seems to be there mainly as eye candy and the actress appears to have been cast to match (which might not be fair to Alice Eve, but it's pretty clear that the movie has no use for anything but her looks). Whereas the original Carol was a woman in her 40s/early 50s, well beyond the age that Hollywood will exploit as sex objects, and thus was written as an actual person instead of a sexy lamp.

And everyone looks and feels so old! The original cast didn't feel this ancient in their last film despite mostly being older, everyone seems so tired despite the attempts to convince us Picard is a super action hero (there is nothing, and I mean nothing, as silly in the last two films as a character in his 70's single handedly killing a load of monsters with guns).
Not everybody. At the time I remember thinking that Crusher and Troi actually seemed to have aged in reverse over the course of the films, which I suspect is a testament to the much higher makeup budget that a feature film has. I was actually surprised by how the TV show didn't try to hide the fact that they were hitting their 40s in the final seasons, because I always felt that the movies tried to "youth" them up.

The male cast for sure looked bad, though, Stewart less so than the others (I always thought he looked like he was 70 in his 50s, and didn't age must past that for 20 years...though he looks completely ancient now). I don't think they actually looked worse than the TOS cast did, but seeing them old definitely hit me harder because I grew up with them as young people (whereas Kirk and co. were always fogeys to me).

I mean, what sort of film makes you hope the villains win because who the heroes are protecting are such terrible people? "We won't pick up a gun to fight for our freedom... but we'll let you're people fight and die for us Captain. Nothing hypocritical there. Oh, that guy in engineering who got set on fire? No, he can't stay on our planet to heal, we must keep this place a secret. Yeah, shame a lot of people must have died in that battle, best not mention it".
That's part of the problem, but I think it's equally bad that Picard is willing to casually toss aside the Prime Directive here where in the TV series he was willing to let entire species die off to uphold the strictest possible interpretation of it. You're left to think that he decided it wasn't a big deal this time around because he wants to nail one of the aliens, and that's about the most un-Picardlike behaviour I can possibly imagine.

I'd say the "Models feel more real than CGI" thing is more psychological than anything based in reality, after all, a model is still fake thing. Both still take the same amount of time, effort and artistry to create as well. I think people forget how much poor modelwork in cheap films there was as well.
I didn't actually say that I thought models looked more real than CGI, though. Good, smartly-used CGI can feel just as real as good, smartly-used models. But the CGI that overwhelmed the Star Wars prequels (and actually, mainly just II and III...I actually think The Phantom Menace looked far better than either) were neither. Making an entire CGI world and pasting actors over top of it is way easier to screw up than mostly shooting on location/on sets and adding CGI on top for polish.

Sidenote: Episode III was ten ****ing years ago. How?

Yeah, it's odd to remember how exciting it was as a kid when TNG (or any show, KAAR coming back in Knight Rider was just as mind blowing) did a sequel. Q! Barcley! Mr. Mott.... well, maybe not that last one.
I agree, it was a gigantic deal! Even if the episode was terrible, getting to see Hugh or Duras or Tomalak again was enough to make it feel super special to my little kid's brain.

My problem with Cumberbatch is first and foremost that he's quite poor in the role. There's some potentially interesting layers there--he's not a good man but his goals are actually sympathetic as his beef with Star Fleet is entirely over the mistreatment of his own people--but it's all just one note DEEP BOOMING VOICE stuff of the sort that makes me wonder why he's so highly rated.
I wasn't a huge fan of his performance either. He's basically the anti-Khan, all cold and superior where Montalban was boiling over with barely-contained rage. He's a great Smaug, but as Khan? Nah.

I think the advantage is how old all the originals are now. Basing an entire trilogy around them would be insane considering the odds of them all still being alive by the end of filming is hellish risky. Even the aliens seem to be covered by this, if they're going to force poor old Peter Mayhew into the Chewbacca costume still I'd say a recast there is very unlikey.
I'm sure they'd recast Chewie or C-3PO or the likes if need be, but sadly I do think that one of Hamill, Fisher or Ford will bite the dust in the next decade.

Lando's not in this one, is he? Bah, he's the only one I'd really want to see again...

See, boring is generally the word I'd use for the bulk of Enterprise and Voyager. Bad TNG and TOS can be painful, but they do feel like products of their time. Around the start of Voyager Trek got stuck in a 1994 rut and never really got out of it
Honestly, I think the problems with Voyager go farther back than that. They hit a rut around season five or six of TNG that they never really got out of. DS9 aside (which had their own, separate production team doing their own thing) the same people ran the franchise for the full run of three TV series. They were already visibly burning out by the end of TNG, and then they tried to pump out another 10 years worth of TNG-lite (while at the same time dividing their attention with movies).

If Voyager and Enterprise had casts that were as likeable as the TNG bunch they probably could have pulled it off, at least with the same level of success as the last couple of "going through the motions" years of TNG. But Scott Bakula and Robert Duncan McNeill were the only ones among them with more charisma than a houseplant, so...

The third season of Enterprise deserves props for blowing up the formula entirely and doing its own thing, though I wasn't a huge fan of where it actually went because seriously, **** the Xindi.

(most obviously from the really annoying continued refusal to have gay people in the future, even when on the same network as the with-actual-gays Buffy. Mind, that's still a bloody problem with the films, no Kirk having a threesome doesn't count) and became just the same thing over and over with the later episodes feeling like a bland decade old episode of television that's no more interesting than an episode of Stargate.
Apparently Geordi was supposed to be gay at some point, but they wussed out. A shame, it would have been nice for him to have a personality beyond "blind black nerd".

I don't care at all either way about having gays in the show, but the Voyager and Enterprise gangs could have used anything to make them feel like real people. I mean, how would you even describe Reid or Hoshi or Mayweather or Kim or Kes or Chakotay beyond their jobs, race and appearance?

I don't know, Darth Vader and the emperor wore the same clothes for decades. That doesn't sound like a group that are constantly evolving, at least when it comes to fashion. The Jedi seem to be the same as well, Obi-Wan and Yoda stuck in their uniform for years despite being in hiding as people who aren't supposed to be Jedi...
Turning Obi-Wan's practical "crazy old desert hermit" robes into a Jedi uniform was only one of the silliest things that the prequels did. I mean, the EU beat them to it, but it's not like Lucas was particularly beholden to that...

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-09-24, 06:59 PM
Maybe it was just dress down Friday everytime we saw the Jedi in the Prequels?

Mind, whilst I doubt they'll be actively retconed (films, even bad ones, have a lot more cultural impact than books or comics), I wouldn't be surprised if the Prequels are completely ignored by the new films. Tellingly none of the 500000 standalone films seems to be intersecting with them despite the fact that doing something like "McGreggor Kenobi has an adventure on Tatooine" would seem a no-brainer from a practical "The actor is still around and the right age" perspective. It would certainly seem easier to do than resurrecting Peter Cushing.

Sorry for the double post, but I've been thinking about the post above. It is an interesting thought. Have the prequels been written off by Lucasfilm / Disney? I am certainly struggling to think of any prequel characters, groups or plot threads I'd like to see more of, bar the Obi-Wan scenario you mention, and adventures with the Jedi and the Coone troopers. The Clone Wars cartoon covers the latter quite well, I believe (never seen it though), and there are problems with the Obi-Wan idea. Who would be the antagonist? They would have to be powerful enough to face off with a Jedi Master and for there to be dramatic tension, but not linked to the Empire (at least, they can pass no message re. Obi-Wan's location). The activities of the film would also have to pass without drawing unwanted attention to the dude swinging a lightsaber (he is supposed to be in hiding, after all). Could be tricky to plot.

I wouldn't mind a short film showing the grisly death of Jar-Jar Binks, however. But how to kill a Gungan? Eaten by a Rancor? Torn limb from limb by a Wookiee? Blown up by the Death Star? Decisions, decisions...

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-09-24, 07:15 PM
Lando's not in this one, is he? Bah, he's the only one I'd really want to see again...

I'd like to see more Lando too. Fingers crossed for VIII and IX.

Turning Obi-Wan's practical "crazy old desert hermit" robes into a Jedi uniform was only one of the silliest things that the prequels did. I mean, the EU beat them to it, but it's not like Lucas was particularly beholden to that...

I'd say the robes were implied to be the Jedi "uniform" in the classic trilogy, with Anakin's redeemed spirit wearing a variation in VI, and Yoda wearing an old, worn version (sort of) in V and VI.

inflatable dalek
2015-09-24, 08:07 PM
I'm exactly the opposite of you on this one. Scotty is the one that feels like an impression to me, one done by a hyperactive comedian who's not as funny as he thinks he is. His subplot in Into Darkness fell flat for me because he was impossible to take seriously no matter how serious of a situation he was put into. Jimmy Doohan didn't have much more to work with but he made Scotty feel like much more of a real person and less of a cartoon.

I think the first film actually set up a good reason for him to be more oddball than the original Scotty (he's basically gone stir crazy), and for me it creates a nice contrast to the more straight laced others (it's telling he's the one who doesn't have a problem telling Kirk where to get off with the torpedoes).


I've never seen another movie with her in it, honestly, so I can't say anything about her qualities as an actress. I don't really think the new movies treat the character well, though. In spite of mostly being a tokenistic background character in the original series, Uhura still somehow became an icon for black and women's rights. Being "the one that the male leads drool over" feels like a step back rather than forward.

I'd say Guardians of the Galaxy would be well up your street if you like old school Star Wars, just pure great silly fun. And Original Uhura had "To be drolled over" amongst her checklist of things to bring to the show as well, those skirts basically serve no other purpose (and a very nice midriff in Mirror Mirror as well). Don't forget that whilst we might have seen New Uhura's bra, the original is the one who got a completely nude dance scene.

The fact no one else found that bit in The Final Frontier sexy doesn't negate the fact someone making the film thought it would be...



The character seems to be there mainly as eye candy and the actress appears to have been cast to match (which might not be fair to Alice Eve, but it's pretty clear that the movie has no use for anything but her looks). Whereas the original Carol was a woman in her 40s/early 50s, well beyond the age that Hollywood will exploit as sex objects, and thus was written as an actual person instead of a sexy lamp.

I only know Eve through her famous dad (though I'm guessing Shoestring and Waking the Dead aren't well known outside the UK, he's a professional grumpy actor), the material doesn't really help as the script doesn't make her seem very bright and doesn't give her much of a chance to react properly to seeing her father's head crushed right in front of her creating a sense of dull surprise. But equally, she doesn't do much with what she is given.

Not everybody. At the time I remember thinking that Crusher and Troi actually seemed to have aged in reverse over the course of the films, which I suspect is a testament to the much higher makeup budget that a feature film has. I was actually surprised by how the TV show didn't try to hide the fact that they were hitting their 40s in the final seasons, because I always felt that the movies tried to "youth" them up.

Troi certainly looked better once they put her in proper clothes. There's a mentallity in Berman era Trek costumes that "Tight" automatically equates to "Sexy", as if being able to count a woman's ribs is a real turn on. Troi, Seven, and T'Pol (oddly Kira wore a similar catsuit but it actually worked for her somehow) were all played by women who looked much more stunning in real life they they ever did in their catsuits that often looked made out of old carpet. Sadly Troi was the only one who got to dress sensibly and then drastically add to the sex appeal, that, let's face it, was the only reason for the character being there.

I'm not for gratuitous objectification of women, but if you're going to do it, do it right (the original series had a much better knack of making outfits that no sane person would wear look gorgeous. Those backwards dungerees in What Are Little Girls Made of... Yowser).

Odd how Crusher and the Dax's managed to avoid it.

The male cast for sure looked bad, though, Stewart less so than the others (I always thought he looked like he was 70 in his 50s, and didn't age must past that for 20 years...though he looks completely ancient now). I don't think they actually looked worse than the TOS cast did, but seeing them old definitely hit me harder because I grew up with them as young people (whereas Kirk and co. were always fogeys to me).

Stewart doesn't look so bad, but it's a very lethargic performance. Which is odd considering how much of that film is structured around keeping him happy (the car chase was his idea, as was the villain not being a long lost son), he's too good to be completely awful but it's basically autopilot by his standards.

Factor in Worf seems to be asleep, Riker looks terrible (the topless scene is the most terrifying in the film) and I'm not sure if Geordi is in it and it's an odd film for the regulars. Ironically considering he wanted to be killed off as he was getting too old to play an android, Spiner gets away with it because the make up hides a multitude of sins.


That's part of the problem, but I think it's equally bad that Picard is willing to casually toss aside the Prime Directive here where in the TV series he was willing to let entire species die off to uphold the strictest possible interpretation of it. You're left to think that he decided it wasn't a big deal this time around because he wants to nail one of the aliens, and that's about the most un-Picardlike behaviour I can possibly imagine.

Hey, Picard acting in a completely different way to how he did in the episode with exactly the same plot where it was all brown people in peril and they were led by a wrinkly old man rather than a milf doesn't make it out of character, it just reveals he was a really horrible racist all along.



I agree, it was a gigantic deal! Even if the episode was terrible, getting to see Hugh or Duras or Tomalak again was enough to make it feel super special to my little kid's brain.

Tomalak was an odd one in that the character was completely generic (and not even really in his last two appearances), pretty much every other Romulan Commander could have been made him with absolutely no rewriting. That's entirely down to the actor and it's a shame both the Selar idea and Babylon 5 basically stopped him showing up.


I wasn't a huge fan of his performance either. He's basically the anti-Khan, all cold and superior where Montalban was boiling over with barely-contained rage. He's a great Smaug, but as Khan? Nah.

Yeah, there's actually a reasonable explanation for him being a very different character: We've only ever seen Khan as a freshly woken up in the 23rd century uncertain plotter with his charisma turned up to 11 to get people onside or as completely off his tits and driven mad by isolation and death. A version woken up early who's had time to adjust, who's been working got Starfleet for at least a few years (and the idea that the Federation would react badly to the destruction of Vulcan is a good one) should be a very different man. It's just a bad sort of different though.


I'm sure they'd recast Chewie or C-3PO or the likes if need be, but sadly I do think that one of Hamill, Fisher or Ford will bite the dust in the next decade.

Though "Young Han Solo" is one of the films they're doing isn't it? Which is odd considering we're almost certainly talking "Close to Original Age Han Solo". The rumour is Ford only agreed to this if there was another Indiana Jones... which is mental even if crashing your plane into a golf course is exactly the sort of thing Indiana Jones would do.


Lando's not in this one, is he? Bah, he's the only one I'd really want to see again...

And he seemed a bit niffed about it as well, suggesting no surprise showing.

Still, Admiral Ackbar right? That's who we love!


Honestly, I think the problems with Voyager go farther back than that. They hit a rut around season five or six of TNG that they never really got out of. DS9 aside (which had their own, separate production team doing their own thing) the same people ran the franchise for the full run of three TV series. They were already visibly burning out by the end of TNG, and then they tried to pump out another 10 years worth of TNG-lite (while at the same time dividing their attention with movies).

If Voyager and Enterprise had casts that were as likeable as the TNG bunch they probably could have pulled it off, at least with the same level of success as the last couple of "going through the motions" years of TNG. But Scott Bakula and Robert Duncan McNeill were the only ones among them with more charisma than a houseplant, so...

The third season of Enterprise deserves props for blowing up the formula entirely and doing its own thing, though I wasn't a huge fan of where it actually went because seriously, **** the Xindi.

Yeah, I'd say that's all pretty much bang on the head. I'd say making Braga a showrunner was a mistake as well. He is (or at least was), an extremely talented writer but one who has a very specific niche. He does the bonkers mad SF concept of the week, and does it well (several episodes he wrote defined a trope that every SF show still seems required to do). But that's not a good fit for every single episode, especially if you want something like consistent character development. A man who'll turn everyone into monsters and back in 45 minutes with no lasting consequences is not the guy for that.

Have him on-board to do a couple of format stretching shows a year, or couple him up with another writer who can pull him in different directions (it's telling most of his best stuff came from working with Ron Moore), but don't let him run the whole show.

Oh, to late.

We should have a Star Trek thread!

Sorry for the double post, but I've been thinking about the post above. It is an interesting thought. Have the prequels been written off by Lucasfilm / Disney? I am certainly struggling to think of any prequel characters, groups or plot threads I'd like to see more of, bar the Obi-Wan scenario you mention, and adventures with the Jedi and the Coone troopers. The Clone Wars cartoon covers the latter quite well, I believe (never seen it though), and there are problems with the Obi-Wan idea. Who would be the antagonist? They would have to be powerful enough to face off with a Jedi Master and for there to be dramatic tension, but not linked to the Empire (at least, they can pass no message re. Obi-Wan's location). The activities of the film would also have to pass without drawing unwanted attention to the dude swinging a lightsaber (he is supposed to be in hiding, after all). Could be tricky to plot.

I wouldn't mind a short film showing the grisly death of Jar-Jar Binks, however. But how to kill a Gungan? Eaten by a Rancor? Torn limb from limb by a Wookiee? Blown up by the Death Star? Decisions, decisions...

I suppose they might end up doing something with the PT, but it's telling that all the callbacks and references in the trailers and everything announced about the forthcoming films revolves around the first three. Not a single nod to 50% of the cinematic output so far. At best Boba Fett will probably still be played by a Kiwi (though if we never see his face will they bother?), despite the fact that, as Warcry says, it's been long enough for the kids those films were supposedly aimed at to have grown up and become nostalgic for them (though that doesn't seem to be happening. Harry Potter, Matrix and LOTR all come much higher for late nighties/noughties kids).

As said, I don't think we're talking actively contradicting anything, it's more likely to be "Let's never talk again of that time your granddad cut up a load of small children into little bits and still got into Jedi heaven after he died because he eventually renounced evil with only one blown up planet to his name. And you thought him getting a pass on that after strangling loads of grown up and ordering torture and shit was unlikely".

Warcry
2015-09-25, 04:33 PM
Sorry for the double post, but I've been thinking about the post above. It is an interesting thought. Have the prequels been written off by Lucasfilm / Disney? I am certainly struggling to think of any prequel characters, groups or plot threads I'd like to see more of, bar the Obi-Wan scenario you mention, and adventures with the Jedi and the Coone troopers. The Clone Wars cartoon covers the latter quite well, I believe
It's funny you bring up the Clone Wars show, because I think the new movies are more likely to have callbacks to that than the actual prequel trilogy. Not only is it the only EU stuff that's still considered canon, it's also the only thing to come out of the Prequel era that actually seems to be popular.

I'd say the robes were implied to be the Jedi "uniform" in the classic trilogy, with Anakin's redeemed spirit wearing a variation in VI, and Yoda wearing an old, worn version (sort of) in V and VI.
I wouldn't have considered Yoda an example, since he looks to me like he's just wearing space-hobo rags, but I'd completely forgotten about Anakin. It was still a silly thing to do in the 1980s, then.

The funny thing is, Anakin actually spent most of his Jedi years running around in foreshadowy black leather. Did he ever wear anything like the typical brown robes on-screen?

I think the first film actually set up a good reason for him to be more oddball than the original Scotty (he's basically gone stir crazy), and for me it creates a nice contrast to the more straight laced others (it's telling he's the one who doesn't have a problem telling Kirk where to get off with the torpedoes).
It gives a good excuse for him to be the silly joke character, yes. I don't think that plays well into giving him actual, serious plotlines though. After the first one, my reaction was "Oh, Scotty's just being nuts again..." Especially since randomly flipping out over torpedoes is a bit odd to begin with. I mean, this can't be the first time that classified, experimental weapons have been loaded aboard a Starfleet ship. It's the sort of thing that happens all the time in real life.

I'd say Guardians of the Galaxy would be well up your street if you like old school Star Wars, just pure great silly fun.
Do plan to check it out eventually, but I've got a big backlog of stuff on my "to watch" pile.

And Original Uhura had "To be drolled over" amongst her checklist of things to bring to the show as well, those skirts basically serve no other purpose (and a very nice midriff in Mirror Mirror as well).
Original Uhura was there to be drooled over by the viewers, though. The scripts are generally pretty good about making sure the rest of the crew treat her with the respect due to a fellow officer. Kirk and Spock certainly didn't objectify her the way the new versions do.

That was what Rand and Chapel were for.

Troi certainly looked better once they put her in proper clothes.
OH MY GOD YES. In spite of being nearly a decade older she was so much sexier once Jellico made her start dressing like a normal human being. Before that it was impossible to take her seriously. And her wardrobes in the films were even better. Honestly I'm not sure how they managed to make her look so bad earlier on unless they were actively trying to.

The scripts started treating her with a lot more respect around the same time, though, so I'm not sure that it was just the costume change that made her more attractive.

There's a mentallity in Berman era Trek costumes that "Tight" automatically equates to "Sexy", as if being able to count a woman's ribs is a real turn on. Troi, Seven, and T'Pol (oddly Kira wore a similar catsuit but it actually worked for her somehow) were all played by women who looked much more stunning in real life they they ever did in their catsuits that often looked made out of old carpet. Sadly Troi was the only one who got to dress sensibly and then drastically add to the sex appeal, that, let's face it, was the only reason for the character being there.
Female costume designs are pretty awful all-around in TNG-and-later Trek. It says something when the blatantly oversexed stuff from the 60s show still represent the best female wardrobe the franchise has ever seen.

Kira actually went through two different uniforms over the course of the series, and I think the first one (two-tone red with textured fabric) worked really well for her while at the same time not coming off as particularly exploitative. The single-coloured version from the later seasons never looked good to me though. Especially since all of the other Bajoran characters kept wearing the old one, so it came off as a blatant attempt to sex her up.

Ironically she, like Troi, looked her best when they put her in a Starfleet uniform for the last few episodes of the last season. And that was pretty clearly her least sexed-up outfit of all.

Odd how Crusher and the Dax's managed to avoid it.
Crusher actually ran around in a catsuit version of the standard uniform for some reason during the TV series, even after the guys moved to the more conservatively-cut outfits in season three. But then she wore a lab coat over it 90% of the time, so I'm not sure what the point was. The overall effect was no more revealing than if they'd just put her in a looser outfit like the guys.

Stewart doesn't look so bad, but it's a very lethargic performance. Which is odd considering how much of that film is structured around keeping him happy (the car chase was his idea, as was the villain not being a long lost son), he's too good to be completely awful but it's basically autopilot by his standards.
I can't say that I blame him. He'd been playing Picard for, what, nearly twenty years by that point? It can't be easy to get excited to play the same character again, especially when it was probably obvious how awful the movie was going to be early on in production.

Factor in Worf seems to be asleep, Riker looks terrible (the topless scene is the most terrifying in the film) and I'm not sure if Geordi is in it and it's an odd film for the regulars. Ironically considering he wanted to be killed off as he was getting too old to play an android, Spiner gets away with it because the make up hides a multitude of sins.
TBH I think Data threw me off the most. He'd been gaining weight slowly since he started playing data but for Nemesis he was noticeably pudgy. That's not a big deal for a human character but it's a bit more obvious when the ageless robot gains weight.

I honestly think they could have gotten away with not even hiring Dorn and Burton for this one and nobody would have been able to tell the difference.

Re: Riker, his beardless turn in Insurrection is way more terrifying than anything that happens in Nemesis.

Hey, Picard acting in a completely different way to how he did in the episode with exactly the same plot where it was all brown people in peril and they were led by a wrinkly old man rather than a milf doesn't make it out of character, it just reveals he was a really horrible racist all along.
Maybe amidst the "life's too short, don't let them promote you" talk that Kirk gave him in Generations there was a bit about "oh, and don't worry about bending the rules if you can score some alien tail"?

That whole thing was silly anyway. Picard is the polar opposite of Kirk temperament-wise and would have loved being an admiral or retiring to become an ambassador and putter away in archaeology digs on his off-days.

Tomalak was an odd one in that the character was completely generic (and not even really in his last two appearances), pretty much every other Romulan Commander could have been made him with absolutely no rewriting. That's entirely down to the actor and it's a shame both the Selar idea and Babylon 5 basically stopped him showing up.
Yeah, it's a testament to how awesome Andreas Katsulas was that people loved the character in spite of him basically never doing anything of note.

I thought Sela was the coolest thing ever when I was a kid, but as an adult...wow she sucked, didn't she? Denise Crosby was probably the weakest actor from the original main cast but even then they really didn't give her much to work with.

Yeah, there's actually a reasonable explanation for him being a very different character: We've only ever seen Khan as a freshly woken up in the 23rd century uncertain plotter with his charisma turned up to 11 to get people onside or as completely off his tits and driven mad by isolation and death. A version woken up early who's had time to adjust, who's been working got Starfleet for at least a few years (and the idea that the Federation would react badly to the destruction of Vulcan is a good one) should be a very different man. It's just a bad sort of different though.
True enough. But by the same token, if he's so changed as to be a completely different person then why even bother using Khan to start with?

Still, Admiral Ackbar right? That's who we love!
Wait, Admiral Fishface is in it?

What are the odds he's only there for a tedious "it's a trap!" callback to please the internet meme crowd?

Yeah, I'd say that's all pretty much bang on the head. I'd say making Braga a showrunner was a mistake as well. He is (or at least was), an extremely talented writer but one who has a very specific niche. He does the bonkers mad SF concept of the week, and does it well (several episodes he wrote defined a trope that every SF show still seems required to do). But that's not a good fit for every single episode, especially if you want something like consistent character development. A man who'll turn everyone into monsters and back in 45 minutes with no lasting consequences is not the guy for that.
Ironically he actually spearheaded a show with what looked to be a long-running pre-planned story arc in Threshold. It got cancelled before it could go anywhere, though I've always thought it had a fair bit of potential.

In terms of Trek though, you're right that he was a bad fit as a showrunner.

We should have a Star Trek thread!
Yeah, this is like the fifth thread we've derailed into Trek talk this year...

Summerhayes
2015-09-25, 05:01 PM
The funny thing is, Anakin actually spent most of his Jedi years running around in foreshadowy black leather. Did he ever wear anything like the typical brown robes on-screen?
When he and Obi Wan are together at the start of Episode II he's wearing standard Jedi stuff. Its only at the end when he goes off with Padme he changes it up.


I mean, this can't be the first time that classified, experimental weapons have been loaded aboard a Starfleet ship. It's the sort of thing that happens all the time in real life.
Well, they're always bringing up that Starfleet isn't supposed to be a military. These people all joined to be explorers and adventurers, to help people and maybe do a little police work. Using secretly shielded, illegal weapons is not something they're keen on!

Selkadoom
2015-09-25, 08:08 PM
When he and Obi Wan are together at the start of Episode II he's wearing standard Jedi stuff. Its only at the end when he goes off with Padme he changes it up.

Very true, he was wearing a vaguely standard outfit for a good hunk of the movie, and then any pretense of subtlety went out the window for episode 3

l, they're always bringing up that Starfleet isn't supposed to be a military. These people all joined to be explorers and adventurers, to help people and maybe do a little police work. Using secretly shielded, illegal weapons is not something they're keen on!

Mhmm, its Starfleet, not the empire who in the EU never stopped building stupid impractical doomsday devices. Starfleet was always supposed to be about exploration and discovery and the like

ganon578
2015-09-28, 06:11 PM
I'm very excited to see Ep VII, if anyone has seen my recent postings of 'Non-TF Toy Aquisitions' can gather. I don't think it will be a trainwreck at all, and with Lucas out of the picture, most of the terribly acting should be out too.

I feel he's responsible for pretty much all of the wooden acting in the prequels - there's too much Prequel-bashing that goes around. Has there ever been an origin story of anything that was really worthwhile, or better than the source material? You already know what the end result is, how can the origin be that exciting? I take them for what they are, and I saw all three of them at midnight showings. They're fun, and I was far too young to see any of the originals in the theaters (not born in 1977, wasn't born yet when ESB came out, only 3 when ROTJ was released).

I won't be going to a midnight showing of TFA this time around as my family life just doesn't make it appealing. However, I will go see it sometime on release week when the wife and I can find someone to watch the kids for a few hours. :)

Dead Man Wade
2015-09-28, 07:59 PM
I feel he's responsible for pretty much all of the wooden acting in the prequels - there's too much Prequel-bashing that goes around. Has there ever been an origin story of anything that was really worthwhile, or better than the source material? You already know what the end result is, how can the origin be that exciting?

You know, the problem with the prequels isn't that it doesn't really matter how exactly Anakin became Darth Vader, though it doesn't. It isn't that Hayden Christiansen was terrible, though he was. It wasn't even that they didn't make any goddamn sense, though they didn't.

It's that, ultimately, we don't need appearances by every ****ing character Lucas created. We know it's a Star Wars movie without Chewbacca showing up for an unneccesary cameo, or mini-Boba, or Jimmy Smits showing up to take Leia for no other reason than because Jimmy Smits is just awesome like that. I don't care.

Like the "What if Episode One Were Good?" video pointed out, the secret to doing a sequel or prequel is to make everything feel old, but new. Lucas thought you did this by sticking every character from the OT in there, whether they belonged or not. But it can be achieved by carrying over themes and arcs.

Also, Dark Side aside, Anakin seemed like he was just waiting for a chance to start killing younglings.

Auntie Slag
2015-09-28, 08:16 PM
I wish Episode III was Episode I and they carried on from there. III seemed like they'd chilled out a bit and decided to have some fun. Obi Wan was a bit goofy, Anakin was still more or less forgettable and the scene stealers were the effects and Palpatine.

Despite all the hammyness, younglings and other stuff the bit that really killed it for me was Obi Wan's passionate "... WHAT ABOUT DEMOCRACY!!!111One".

Could you imagine convincing anyone with a line like that?

Hats off to Samuel L. Jackson's "No Anakain, HE is the evil one, arrrgh"! that's some of the worst acting in the trilogy I reckon.

Its a shame Michael Hutchence isn't around. He'd have made an ace Sith Lord; Darth Hutchence. And all the girls would fancy him, which would really annoy the Jedi.

Dead Man Wade
2015-09-28, 08:25 PM
See I wish almost the exact opposite. Winnow Episode I down to only what worked, have a brief appearance by Lloydakin so everybody can be all "No, Qui-Gon! Leave him, he's a bad bad man! Let him to die in slavery!", and make it Episode III. Avoid the worst galaxy's worst doctor/robot, the unnecessary burning death, Vader's overwrought reaction to Panda's death, Senator Jar-Jar, and a host of other garbage.

All of the stuff they revealed, from Anakin's quick descent into the Dark Side, to his falling out with Obi-Wan, was better off left unsaid.

Auntie Slag
2015-09-28, 08:38 PM
Anakin and Obi Wan should have had some merry japes around the galaxy. Drinking and shagging and gambling. If anything perhaps Anakin's descent could have been helped by the fact that he simply couldn't keep up with Obi Wan's debauchery.

All of this could have happened whilst they were young and carefree, only getting down to some serious Jedi stuff once they'd had their fill. Again, that twinkle in Alec Guiness' eye that out-acted almost everything else in Star Wars. It was that twinkle as he talked about the past; he was a filthy hound dog and wouldn't you be if you were one of the coolest people in the galaxy?

Auntie Slag
2015-09-28, 08:40 PM
That's why Kirk got it right in the 2009 Star Trek. He was a tart and a muppet. That's far more realistic and fun to watch that the button down sanitised rubbish of the TV shows (I mean TNG, Voyager and so on).

I enjoyed The Next Generation back then but I couldn't stomach it now. That 'Best of Both Worlds' 2-parter was a nail biter. "This shit just got real" was how my little brain felt seeing that for the first time

Dead Man Wade
2015-09-28, 08:45 PM
I dunno. Lucas doesn't have a great track record when it comes to writing characters that aren't swimming in angst. We'd have been far more likely to get a Jar Jar than a Han Solo.

Auntie Slag
2015-09-28, 08:54 PM
He wised up to the fact that no-one liked Jar Jar pretty quickly. I liked Watto though, and the wacky aliens in the iPod race (and that little chicken thing that Jabba flicked into the crowd. Loved its little dramatic cry as it fell). Lucas has a good flair for those sorts of things.

Part of why I love Star Wars is because of all the weird little bits going on around the edge of a scene.

ganon578
2015-09-28, 10:24 PM
It's that, ultimately, we don't need appearances by every ****ing character Lucas created. We know it's a Star Wars movie without Chewbacca showing up for an unneccesary cameo, or mini-Boba, or Jimmy Smits showing up to take Leia for no other reason than because Jimmy Smits is just awesome like that. I don't care.

Like the "What if Episode One Were Good?" video pointed out, the secret to doing a sequel or prequel is to make everything feel old, but new. Lucas thought you did this by sticking every character from the OT in there, whether they belonged or not. But it can be achieved by carrying over themes and arcs.

Also, Dark Side aside, Anakin seemed like he was just waiting for a chance to start killing younglings.

That's a good point. It's fun to see little Easter Eggs like the Millenium Falcon sitting in a port on Naboo or Coruscant, it's not quite fun to have Chewie shoe-horned in with Yoda for no reason.

Anakin's descent could have easily been handled differently instead of the quick drop that's shown in the movies. The Clone Wars also explored this a little more and shed quite a bit of light on his growing mistrust of the council. Instead we just get to see him get cranky that he might not get to hump Padme after she croaks, so he lops off Mace's arm, cries a bit, then bows to Sidious because he's got nothing better to do at the moment.

Anakin and Obi Wan should have had some merry japes around the galaxy. Drinking and shagging and gambling. If anything perhaps Anakin's descent could have been helped by the fact that he simply couldn't keep up with Obi Wan's debauchery.

All of this could have happened whilst they were young and carefree, only getting down to some serious Jedi stuff once they'd had their fill. Again, that twinkle in Alec Guiness' eye that out-acted almost everything else in Star Wars. It was that twinkle as he talked about the past; he was a filthy hound dog and wouldn't you be if you were one of the coolest people in the galaxy?

The Clone Wars actually did a good job of the Anakin/Obi-Wan dynamic & adventures. You never see it through the prequels, and when Obi-Wan talks wistfully of Luke's father in IV, you kind of wonder what the hell he's talking about after watching I-III. Anakin's more just an arrogant, whiny dick in those movies.

I dunno. Lucas doesn't have a great track record when it comes to writing characters that aren't swimming in angst. We'd have been far more likely to get a Jar Jar than a Han Solo.

I agree with that - it's also a good reason to be optimistic about the new movies. Lucas hasn't done anything with Episode VII, so I view it much in the same light as the recent Clone Wars and Rebels series done by Filoni, et al. which have been very enjoyable, IMO. I hope new people can write interesting characters in this universe.

Dead Man Wade
2015-09-28, 10:52 PM
Anakin's descent could have easily been handled differently instead of the quick drop that's shown in the movies. The Clone Wars also explored this a little more and shed quite a bit of light on his growing mistrust of the council. Instead we just get to see him get cranky that he might not get to hump Padme after she croaks, so he lops off Mace's arm, cries a bit, then bows to Sidious because he's got nothing better to do at the moment.

One of my favorite things anyone ever did about the prequels was Twisted Toyfare Theatre's parody of Episode III. Mace Windu says something like "While we recognize your position as Senator Palpatine's liaison, we do not award you a seat on the the Council." Anakin responds with, "WHAT?! How dare you deny me a position I haven't earned!"

I agree with that - it's also a good reason to be optimistic about the new movies. Lucas hasn't done anything with Episode VII, so I view it much in the same light as the recent Clone Wars and Rebels series done by Filoni, et al. which have been very enjoyable, IMO. I hope new people can write interesting characters in this universe.

Yeah, I have high hopes that Disney taking over will yield positive results. Frankly, after the prequels, I'd be thrilled if they moved away from the Skywalkers as possible. They have an entire galaxy to play with, so I'd like to see them do more than just Luke's kids' gardener.

Selkadoom
2015-09-29, 12:26 AM
Yeah, I have high hopes that Disney taking over will yield positive results. Frankly, after the prequels, I'd be thrilled if they moved away from the Skywalkers as possible. They have an entire galaxy to play with, so I'd like to see them do more than just Luke's kids' gardener.

They could always tap Bioware to let them run around in the old republic era or the thousand or so years before Epsiode 1 after that. Honestly something involving Bane would be mana from heaven for me

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-09-29, 03:05 PM
They could always tap Bioware to let them run around in the old republic era or the thousand or so years before Epsiode 1 after that. Honestly something involving Bane would be mana from heaven for me

That was Darth Bane was in KotoR 2 that was from Obsidian not Bioware. Bioware did the first one and the MMO.

Unicron
2015-09-29, 03:51 PM
That was Darth Bane was in KotoR 2 that was from Obsidian not Bioware. Bioware did the first one and the MMO.

Bane wasn't in any of the games. He came later, as I recall. (Wookiepedia puts Bane at around 1000 years before A New Hope, while the two Knights games would be around 3950-ish.)

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-09-29, 06:57 PM
Bane wasn't in any of the games. He came later, as I recall. (Wookiepedia puts Bane at around 1000 years before A New Hope, while the two Knights games would be around 3950-ish.)

Yeah that was right. I was thinking of the Sith Lord of Hunger (who was pretty much the Star Wars version of Unicron and Galactus), who after being built up as a such a powerful character the Sith Lord of Hunger was such a wimp.


IIRC wasn't Darth Bane was in a book called The Rule of Two by Drew Karyshew?

inflatable dalek
2015-09-29, 07:35 PM
I can't see Star Wars using a villain called Bane post Dark Knight Rises (I don't know if the SW version predates the Batman version, but as a villain's name it's now very much linked with another franchise in the minds of audiences).

Note how the way to stop Warcry talking about Star Trek is to start a dedicated Star Trek thread.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-29, 07:36 PM
Note how the way to stop Warcry talking about Star Trek is to start a dedicated Star Trek thread.

Now to find something that works on you...

Warcry
2015-09-29, 08:02 PM
I can't see Star Wars using a villain called Bane post Dark Knight Rises (I don't know if the SW version predates the Batman version, but as a villain's name it's now very much linked with another franchise in the minds of audiences).
I'm pretty sure that Batman's Bane predates the Star Wars version by at least a decade, and you're right that his presence in the public consciousness makes it hard for Star Wars to use him.

Plus his existence has probably been decanonized now, so there's that too.

Note how the way to stop Warcry talking about Star Trek is to start a dedicated Star Trek thread.
It's no fun if we're not ruining other threads, but fine... ;)

Selkadoom
2015-09-29, 08:13 PM
Yeah that was right. I was thinking of the Sith Lord of Hunger (who was pretty much the Star Wars version of Unicron and Galactus), who after being built up as a such a powerful character the Sith Lord of Hunger was such a wimp.


IIRC wasn't Darth Bane was in a book called The Rule of Two by Drew Karyshew?

Drew Karpyshyn or however its spelled but yes. He had a trillogy of books based around his rise to the Sith, killing the entire order and creating the Rule of Two, and his final battle with his apprentice. Its a good read considering Drew is Biowares main writer for the KOTOR series.

But as a TL;DR, Darth Bane's the creator of the Rule of Two and considered the sith equivalent of the Messiah as he set them up to attain galactic dominance. Also je had badass parasitic armor

I'm pretty sure that Batman's Bane predates the Star Wars version by at least a decade, and you're right that his presence in the public consciousness makes it hard for Star Wars to use him.

Plus his existence has probably been decanonized now, so there's that too.

I know everything post Jedi was rendered non canon but I'm unsure of Biowares things being tossed out too. There's also the fact he was brought into the Clone Wars Cartoon series finale so perhaps theres that as well.

ganon578
2015-09-29, 08:59 PM
Plus his existence has probably been decanonized now, so there's that too.

I know everything post Jedi was rendered non canon but I'm unsure of Biowares things being tossed out too. There's also the fact he was brought into the Clone Wars Cartoon series finale so perhaps theres that as well.

Darth Bane as seen in the Clone Wars CGI show is considered canon. I can't recall if they discuss the 'Rule of Two' in that episode, so the jury's out on that one. I don't think the Karpyshyn books count anymore.

When the Great Canon Purge of Disney happened, they now consider the six main movies, The Clone Wars series, and Rebels all canon. New movies, both in the main timeline and off-shoot 'Anthology' movies will be considered canon as well. The new novels and Marvel comics are also considered canon, unless labeled as 'Legends'. All of the old EU stuff is considered 'Legends' now, including the video games. A few weeks back I was in Barnes & Noble and some new prints of old paperbacks had a big 'Legends' banner at the top.

Selkadoom
2015-09-29, 09:26 PM
Darth Bane as seen in the Clone Wars CGI show is considered canon. I can't recall if they discuss the 'Rule of Two' in that episode, so the jury's out on that one. I don't think the Karpyshyn books count anymore.

When the Great Canon Purge of Disney happened, they now consider the six main movies, The Clone Wars series, and Rebels all canon. New movies, both in the main timeline and off-shoot 'Anthology' movies will be considered canon as well. The new novels and Marvel comics are also considered canon, unless labeled as 'Legends'. All of the old EU stuff is considered 'Legends' now, including the video games. A few weeks back I was in Barnes & Noble and some new prints of old paperbacks had a big 'Legends' banner at the top.

Looking at the Dialogue between him and Yoda it implies that he is still the founder of the Rule of Two Sith Order. Also unrelated note Its very amusing they had Mark Hamil voice him

ganon578
2015-09-30, 02:45 PM
Looking at the Dialogue between him and Yoda it implies that he is still the founder of the Rule of Two Sith Order. Also unrelated note Its very amusing they had Mark Hamil voice him

OK, I couldn't remember off the top of my head and I wasn't in a spot to be able to check it out on YouTube. I suppose that means it's canon then! I had watched the whole Clone Wars series on Netflix recently - very enjoyable.

Hamill has made quite a profession for himself in voice acting, eh?

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-09-30, 08:09 PM
Drew Karpyshyn or however its spelled but yes. He had a trillogy of books based around his rise to the Sith, killing the entire order and creating the Rule of Two, and his final battle with his apprentice. Its a good read considering Drew is Biowares main writer for the KOTOR series.

He was also the original lead writer for Mass Effect and co-lead writer for Mass Effect 2 and he also wrote the first 3 novels for the Mass Effect franchise.

Selkadoom
2015-09-30, 10:27 PM
OK, I couldn't remember off the top of my head and I wasn't in a spot to be able to check it out on YouTube. I suppose that means it's canon then! I had watched the whole Clone Wars series on Netflix recently - very enjoyable.

Hamill has made quite a profession for himself in voice acting, eh?

Amusingly yes he has. The Joker being his most iconic role aside from Luke.

He was also the original lead writer for Mass Effect and co-lead writer for Mass Effect 2 and he also wrote the first 3 novels for the Mass Effect franchise.

He seems to have been the guy they went to to get a good story

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-10-05, 12:48 AM
Amusingly yes he has. The Joker being his most iconic role aside from Luke.



He seems to have been the guy they went to to get a good story

Well David Gaider and Patrick Weeks are also pretty good. Marc Walters is good at smaller quests not the overall arc. Casey Hudson should never be allowed to write a story for the rest of his life.

Selkadoom
2015-10-05, 01:23 AM
Well David Gaider and Patrick Weeks are also pretty good. Marc Walters is good at smaller quests not the overall arc. Casey Hudson should never be allowed to write a story for the rest of his life.

What did Hudson write again?

ganon578
2015-10-20, 07:52 PM
Can't believe I'm the first to get to post this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGbxmsDFVnE

Can't even wait for this movie. Amazing trailer all around.

The most impressive part is hearing Han, who didn't believe in 'hokey religions' the the Original Trilogy telling the newbies that it's all real. Dark side, Jedi, all of it. Like the Original Trilogy events are all conceived as myths and stories. Amazing.

And Rey, climbing in and investigating a crashed Star Destroyer is fantastic.

And Kylo Ren's voice. Awesome.

Summerhayes
2015-10-20, 08:29 PM
The best thing about the trailer is that it showed enough to make me very excited but not enough to ruin the film. Even though the first trailer was a year ago, two months suddenly feels like way too long.

Selkadoom
2015-10-21, 12:25 AM
The best thing about the trailer is that it showed enough to make me very excited but not enough to ruin the film. Even though the first trailer was a year ago, two months suddenly feels like way too long.

I enjoyed it as well but damn was I bothered by the lack of any Hamil in the trailer

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-10-21, 03:13 PM
What did Hudson write again?

He co-wrote the endings to ME3.

ganon578
2015-10-21, 06:18 PM
I enjoyed it as well but damn was I bothered by the lack of any Hamil in the trailer

They definitely seem to be keeping him under tight wraps. As I understand it, there was a leaked photo of Hamill in Jedi robes, which was quickly removed. Perhaps there's a quest to find him, like he has gone into hiding for some reason? That ties into Han's discussion about the Jedi being real, not a story.

I'm not really worried that he hasn't shown up in the trailer, more encouraged that he will present an interesting plot point for the movie.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-23, 03:23 PM
I was a little amused to see the new Royal Mail stamps don't have a single image from the Prequels on them, it's all OT and new film only (with even Yoda carefully surrounded by Empire imagery as if to say "THIS ISN'T PHANTOM MENACE YODA"). I think that rather sums up the Prequel attitude.

In fact, has any of the new merchandise been based around the more recent three films other than stuff based on the cartoons that's reused from them?

ganon578
2015-10-24, 04:35 PM
I was a little amused to see the new Royal Mail stamps don't have a single image from the Prequels on them, it's all OT and new film only (with even Yoda carefully surrounded by Empire imagery as if to say "THIS ISN'T PHANTOM MENACE YODA"). I think that rather sums up the Prequel attitude.

In fact, has any of the new merchandise been based around the more recent three films other than stuff based on the cartoons that's reused from them?

I enjoy the prequels for what they are, but there's no denying they don't have the impact that the OT does. Though it would never happen, they almost need to do like Marvel has recently done and 'redo' them much like they did with Hulk, Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, etc. The stories themselves aren't bad, but they could have been done much better.

Summerhayes
2015-10-24, 06:47 PM
I can enjoy each of the prequels if they're on, but they don't have the same impact the original trilogy does. I am intrigued to know how much that feeling is shared by laymen or children who grew up with them as their Star Wars films. I've always assumed that us geeks are less forgiving of bad CGI because we spend so much time looking at it; be it in videogames or just copious sci-fi and fantasy. If somebody only saw a little CGI in an average year, would they notice the little things that bother us?

On the subject of Luke, I'm kind of glad they're keeping schtum. Its nice not to know anything other than "he's in the film."

Cliffjumper
2015-10-24, 07:22 PM
My biggest problem with the prequels is that they make The Empire, the scariest ****ing thing ever in the world, spring up so they're the same age as Luke and Leia. Which means it's lasten about 18-20 years, which doesn't really fit into the epic mythos. What's really promising about VII is that they're going "You don't think a bit of a kicking on some backwater moon is going to do for a ****ing empire, do you?".

That and Samuel L Jackson playing himself. Actually, everyone bar Liam Neeson's shite and he cops it at the end of the first one (and has the old Alec Guinness thing of clearly having utter contempt for every single word he's speaking going for him); Ian McDerpderp is especially bad. Cute choice for the fans but there's a reason he was smalltime enough to only creep into the old stuff when enveloped in slap; might as well've got Prowse to play Anakin.

And the storylines were all really bad, and the characters were all terrible. And the effects were dodgy. And they were really, really boring even though they thought they were the main event in all cinema.

And of course they basically inspired Twatbeard to go back and **** the proper films with Christensen and all that other shite.

Summerhayes
2015-10-24, 07:24 PM
McGregor was alright.

Cliffjumper
2015-10-24, 09:11 PM
McGregor was alright.

McGregor? I thought that was John Culshaw #doinganimpressionisnotacting

Summerhayes
2015-10-24, 09:14 PM
Maybe not in the first two, but in the third one when he was given a bit of material he was good; a bit of bond here, a cheeky twinkle in his eye there and some emotion towards the end, even as he chewed his way through some pretty awful lines.

Cliffjumper
2015-10-29, 07:39 AM
Do we know for a fact that it's not the world's greatest Joker voice artist ever in the world ever and thus best actor ever in that helmet near the start?

Maybe he's just going to be doing stuff like that now proper actors like John Boyega are involved...

Warcry
2015-10-29, 08:12 PM
I don't care enough to watch the trailers but I do suspect that either Luke is secretly the new bad guy (which would be a terrible decision), or that they're working very diligently to make us think that Luke is the new bad guy by excluding him from the marketing.

And Ewan McGregor was far and away the best thing about the prequels. I can't decide if that's because he was good or that everything else about them was just so bad, but his performance was at least enjoyable.

Cliffjumper
2015-10-29, 08:26 PM
Yeh, I think Luke as the bad guy might be a bit obvious and cheesy but I also, despite remaining highly upbeat about this thing, think JJ Abrams.

I think it's just as likely that he'll show up in the last scene or something after some sort of quest narrative and thus they're playing it coy to avoid an AoE/Dinobots thing and because frankly there's enough Proper Trilogy squee in the trailer to take Avatar's box office outside and do it an extreme disservice already.

Regarding McGregor, I'd agree that he was both one of the better things about the prequels and thus a sign of the problem with them. Respectable Guinness impression, looked like he was having fun (whereas, say, Natalie Portman had clearly signed the contract when worried she'd be a forgotten child star).

inflatable dalek
2015-10-29, 08:51 PM
I think McGregor came closest to walking away with dignity out of the main cast, even if it's not anywhere near his best performance. He'd have done Moulin Rouge just beforehand wouldn't he? Coming off a film with that much greenscreen might have left him in a better place to deal with it when Lucas' direction was clearly no help whatsoever.

I think the Emperor is easily the best thing in the prequels, insanely large ham but the closest thing to any fun in the films. The fact he's crap in Return of the Jedi (a panto dame is Darth's boss?) says it all.

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-11-09, 08:50 AM
OK, more crazy speculation here:

Over the weekend I saw a Lego Star Wars version of Rey with her very often seen staff. The staff was made up of a number of parts, but the end of it was a Lego lightsaber hilt. Simple part re-purposing, or a hint that the staff is more than meets the eye (to quote some other, little know franchise)? Chances that, at a critical juncture, the humble staff will be broken apart to reveal part of it is actually Rey's lightsaber?

inflatable dalek
2015-12-20, 09:18 PM
Surprised I'm the first person to comment on here.








The film is now out, so there will be spoilers from this point onwards. Bewarned!

I'm taking extra care due to a cock up on my part on Facebook yesterday where I'd attempted to be all coy with a "This is an interesting detail about the film" style post that would up with a massive picture of the particular thing discussed coming up alongside the link. Hilarity ensued.













Really liked the first half. Yes, it was a shameless rehash of the original Star Wars (really Lucas should have got a co-writing credit), but done well and it was a good fun romp with some likeable well played characters. The first appearance of the Falcon was especially brilliant, I was half expecting her to swoop in and save the day at that point, so the sudden pan got a proper "Hell yeah!" from me.

Also, how good is Harrison Ford? Easy to say, but considering Han's rather sorry lot in life (seppareted from his misses, estranged from his son, forced to carry on as a pretty pathetic smuggler despite now being a pensioner. Though it's treated as a gag, the rest of his crew being eaten is pretty horrid as well) it'd be easy for him to be a depressing and pathetic seeming character. Ford holds it al together with a dignity and fun despite clearly struggling in some of the running about scenes.

Where it all fell apart was during the First Order attack on the place run by that woman from The Incredibles. It was here that just how crap the villains and how overpoweringly awesome the heroes were in comparison really started to sink in. Ren is a tremendous threat to any wall that might need attacking, but pretty much an inept idiot in every other way. I get they were trying to do Anakin "Right" with a confilcted not quite yet turned character, but it didn't quite work. He was most succesfull at killing a very old man putting up no fight whatsoever.

The back end was a shameless rehash of Star Wars, but all the bits people take the piss out of. The lack of CCTV in the planet base (and isn't it lucky all the places they need to go are within walking distance?) is even sillier in 2015 when cameras are everywhere in real life. I mean, Han's other ship had security cameras FFS.

The best villain was Daniel Crag's camp "I will remove these restraints" storm trooper (it's sad I could tell that was him from the way he walked out the room) and he was in it for a minute.

I could just about buy Finn managing with a light sabre on the first attempt as he was facing off against a stormtrooper with a similar weapon, so presumably he's had some training. Rey doing force mind control and managing to best someone much further along in their training in a light sabre fight (did Ren not get beyond the "Fighting a wall" stage?) seemed more unlikely and made a mockery of all the "Becoming a Jedi takes years" stuff from the originals.

Did I miss why the needed to take the shields down rather than just having the X-Wings do the same "Flying at light speed to get through the shields" thing as the Falcon? My sister in law suggested it's because the Falcon is so awesome, but it's at least 40 years old (and probably a lot more) at this point, have there been no advances in ship design in that time that modern fighter craft can't best it? Is techological research in this Universe entirely devoted to building bigger and bigger Death Stars (without ever giving any thought to resolving the "Fly down a trench and shoot to blow it up" flaw)?

By the time you got to Mark Hamil's mute drunk hobo cameo ("Hey, we've got the guy who has made a successful career as a voice actor but was never that great a screen actor. Let's not have him talk!") it had become quite inadvertently funny. I especially like how Chewbacca took one look at that cliff and went "**** that, you can go tell Luke Han's dead".

Actually, did anyone else think Chewy seemed kind of muted over Han's death? I was expecting him to kick off.

If it had continued in the vein of the first half I'd have loved it, but overall the flaws in the conclusion make it solid rather than spectacular. Guardians of the Galaxy did it better (albeit with rubbish villains as well).

Sades
2015-12-20, 09:19 PM
Shouldn't this be merged with that other Star Wars thread you and Warcry are going on about?

Cliffjumper
2015-12-20, 10:20 PM
I'm not bothering to go and see it. I made a comment on someone's facebook in response to a minor spoiler, their brother intentionally spoilt what I imagine are the two of the most pivotal plot developments of the film out of sheer twatty spite.

The fun's kind-of gone out of it as a result, it's just another film now, like Amazing Spider-Man 2 or Fury or something; I'll watch it when the DVD's cheap. It was nice getting caught up in the hype and being part of the excitement for a little while, nice to be involved in trying to get a few friends together for a fun afternoon off from being a grown up after the madness of Christmas, but there we go, that's life - you get excited about something, then a c**t comes along and ****s things up.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-20, 11:18 PM
Yeah, some people are massive ****ing wankers. Really pleased with the fact that, even today, none of the 1000+ people I follow on Twitter have dropped the ball on it.

As far as the film goes, really enjoyed it.

Massively derivative nostalgia-fest, but to the point where it becomes the thematic subtext of the narrative.

Could sit and pick holes in it forever if I felt like it, but the whole experience was so emotionally satisfying that I really don't want to.

The sort of film that makes me want to use the term "fanwank" as a positive.

Cliffjumper
2015-12-20, 11:45 PM
Yeah, some people are massive ****ing wankers. Really pleased with the fact that, even today, none of the 1000+ people I follow on Twitter have dropped the ball on it.

Yeh, kind-of the worst bit of it all TBH. There're civilians all over my facebook who don't "do" this sort of thing and think a spoiler is something you use to make your Peugeot 206 look like a sportscar and yet there seems to have been a society-wide awareness that slapping the plot all over social media is Not Cool.

Then someone does it on purpose; it's a curious sensation, to have a total stranger who you're unaware of ever doing any harm to (and indeed like to think you've been a good friend to one of their family members on the whole) just shit on you. Maybe I just don't get excited about enough stuff and thus this one stands out, or maybe it's just envy that so many friends have managed to watch the film as unsullied as they chose to be and that decision's been taken out of my hands by someone acting the twat.

I'm sure there are many other good bits in the film and that it'll be an enjoyable watch whenever I get round to it, but it's definitely shifted it from being a once-in-a-generation shared experience to just another film I'll be watching in a couple of years when CEX put it down to three quid. If you gave me the DVD today it probably wouldn't even jump up the (meticulously ordered) watchlist.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-20, 11:54 PM
Is it definite legit spoilers they've given? I mean I've totally got form for just making up fake spoilers on social media to distract people, but genuinely ruining something on purpose is over the line.

Cliffjumper
2015-12-21, 12:05 AM
The spite and clear intention to spoil things makes me think pretty much yeh, and it's certainly close enough to likely to be at the back of my mind for the whole film. We're not talking your "Ackbar bums Nieb-Nieb" stuff.

The spoiler in question...

Kylo Ren is Han's son and kills him; who Ren was and what happens to Han were basically the two burning questions for me after the trailer even if they're not the main show

It's odd in a way thinking about it as I've read A Song of Ice and Fire knowing what are probably the pivotal events thanks to being dimly aware of Sar's watching of Game of Thrones Ned dies, Red Wedding, Twincest, Theon gets ****ed up and it didn't particularly affect my enjoyment, possibly because the media's been out in one form or another for 20 years or whatever. Feels a bit different for a film that's been out for 4 days; I mean, come mid-Jan or what have you you're perhaps a bit more into "fair enough" territory.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-21, 12:20 AM
Yeah your friend's brother's a ****.

Admittedly I could bluff it and tell you it's lies but the moment you watch it and find out half of it's true then the gig is up and you'll be just as disappointed as if you'd known straight up.

I had the book 1 of ASoiaF thing spoiled for me too, but as you say, that was over a decade old. Force Awakens hasn't even got through its opening weekend yet.

Sades
2015-12-21, 01:58 AM
Good thing you don't read Reddit, people have been posting spoilers everywhere.

While I don't feel the same way about Star Wars, giving spoilers to someone who is clearly excited is really just a shit thing to do. Sorry to hear the experience has been ruined.

ganon578
2015-12-21, 03:34 PM
I saw it this weekend and enjoyed every minute of it, possible flaws and all. I'm sure some things will stand out over time that would slightly bug me, but the overall enjoyment of the whole flick is more than enough to overcome that. :)

Very pleased that I could see it this early, and my wife also came with me, so that's a bonus! And she didn't even ask questions midway through, which I wouldn't have had answers to anyways!

inflatable dalek
2015-12-21, 09:10 PM
I ruined Star Wars for Cliffy.

I still don't know what made my brother do that (or what people saw in Cliffy's original response to my accidental spoiler that resulted in the first I knew about the entire fuss being being some very odd texts from otherwise sane friends. Have Star Wars fans done something horrid without me realising? Cliffy is actually a very nice man and definately didn't deserve any of this) considering he's normally a placid laid back sort of chap who never really gets pissed off with anyway. He's certainly not a twat, so him randomly acting like one for no reason was bizarre.

He has been told off though, and I'm sure there will be more on Christmas Day.


I'd simply shared a link about how Ewan McGregor recorded a one line voice over as Obi-Wan for the dream sequence, with my coyness over which actor it was talking about ruined by a massive picture of him accompanying the link. Oddly between that, the "We do have clone storm troopers" and the mention of the Sith I think this film was actually more respectful to the Prequel trilogy than it was Return of the Jedi. A lot of the film is basically committed to proving the title of that one was a blatant lie.

As Cliffy mentioned Nieb-Nieb, I think I spotted his name on the credits but didn't see him in the film itself. Was Ackbar actually bumming him?

I'd definitely say it's still worth seeing at the cinema over DVD though, as with the Bay films this is the sort of Big Visual Feast that seeing it on a telly is going to lose more than knowing the basic plot will (it's no consolation, but this is not a film where the plot matters especially anyway, it's a very predictable movie). Especially if the people you were going to see it with are still going. And it is huge, huge fun despite my issues with the second half.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-21, 09:22 PM
I like to interpret the title of episode 6 as referring to Anakin specifically, but that's probably just me.

The only thing that dream sequence was missing was Leoben popping up saying "all this has happened before"

inflatable dalek
2015-12-22, 09:10 PM
Apparently Frank Oz recorded something for the dream as well, but they wound up using archive footage instead, they meshed McGregor's line with archive Guinness as well (I didn't spot any of this).

I guess this is supposed to signpost Ewan and Yoda still hanging around with Luke as Force ghosts in the next one? Oh, it'd be hilarious if Ren isn't loopy when he's talking to the helmet and ghost Hayden Christian is loitering around him.

Seems a lot of effort if it's not supposed to signify something, considering some corners of the internet seem determined to make Ray's parents Significant I'm hoping she's now Kenobi's secret granddaughter or something.

I actually joked to a friend they should make her Luke and Leia's daughter to bring back the incest. But apparently there's a lot of Star Wars fans who think that already.

Probably a silly question:

So was Luke's light sabre the one he lost on Bespin or was female Ronnie Corbett just being figurative when she said it belonged to Anakin as well? Why would it be seen as a thing of awe when it once hacked some small children to death? How do people tell one light sabre from another by looking at it when they're all basically the same?

Why does Ray think waving it at Luke is a better greeting than just going "Hello, I've come from some friends of yours (one of whom couldn't be ****ed to walk up the cliff, but he's an old Wookie now. Maybe you should put a stair lift in) and have some bad news"?

Slightly sad to hear from a friend that, based on their knowledge of Peter Mayhew's health (apparently he's been in a wheelchair!), he almost certainly only did the facial close ups on Chewbacca.

Oh, and...

Why did they do the gag of Han being surprised to discover Chewies bowcaster thing is a fun gun twice?

inflatable dalek
2015-12-22, 09:17 PM
Ohhhhh, and two injokes I was expecting and for which the film deserves props for not doing:


At no point did Ackbar feel trapped (though it says a lot about how crap the baddies are that the guy who was once surprised when he walked into a blatant trap is now on top of things) and no one said "That's no Death Star".

ganon578
2015-12-22, 10:23 PM
In response to a couple of Dalek's questions:

Yes, the lightsaber that Rey now has was Luke's, given to him by Obi-Wan that definitely was Anakin's. Don't know if it's necessarily a thing of awe, but she mentions that it 'called' to Rey. That must be the Force acting in such a way to bring back the light side? I mean, Luke is around to represent the Light, but he's been in hiding for what seems like a significant period of time.

I didn't mind that Rey held out the saber to Luke. It was just a bit odd that he didn't say anything. I got the impression that he kind of expected her to appear, but I was also expecting him to say something along the lines of "That's yours now."

But to add to your incest idea (boy does that sound odd), why would the saber choose Rey? Seems like there has to be some sort of lineage there. It's been in the Skywalker family since it was built, and it called to her. I don't know, it just seems to make sense that she would be family. Maybe Luke's daughter? But why would he abandon her?

Han/Chewie gag: I don't know either, but I thought it a bit odd that they'd pull that twice as well.

ganon578
2015-12-23, 03:16 AM
Also, where did Supreme Commander Snoke come from? Apparently he's ancient, full of wisdom, and powerful in the dark side of the force. In the times of the Sith, there were only two - Master & Apprentice. The last two were Palpatine and Vader. How does Snoke fit into that? Surely he's older than 30. I can't even begin to have an idea on how he fits.

inflatable dalek
2015-12-23, 09:04 PM
I've seen people calling Ren and Serkis "Sith" a lot, but they're not are they? Ren at least is a... well a Ren.

One completely silly thing that's not remotely the fault of the film as there was nothing they'd have been able to do about it anyway and it's more a problem with me than them:

Did anyone else find the way Leia has a voice you can only get from decades of chain smoking mildly distracting? It didn't seem likely the character would have started rolling her own. As a friend said, "She opens her mouth and Satan's voice came out".

ganon578
2015-12-23, 09:44 PM
Did anyone else find the way Leia has a voice you can only get from decades of chain smoking mildly distracting? It didn't seem likely the character would have started rolling her own. As a friend said, "She opens her mouth and Satan's voice came out".

Spot on, as I felt the same way. She played a good character, but you could tell her voice has seen better days.

I don't think Kylo Ren and Snoke are Sith. An interesting note that I read on some other forums, Jedi and Sith are only views of the Force from different sides. But there are several dark side users that aren't Sith, like Asajj Ventress, The Inquisitors, Dark Jedi, etc. It's completely feasible that they're dark side, but not Sith. And I suppose Ahsoka Tano is a light force user, though she does not align herself with Jedi.

Though, if Snoke has been around for what seems like centuries, how could Palpatine not know about him? Or was the dark side clouding the dark side?

I've also seen quite a bit of speculation that pegs Snoke as Darth Plagieus, Palpatine's former master. Apparently the guy had already found a way to manipulate life through the force, saving others from death. Surely a dude that powerful found a way to come back? I mean, Obi-Wan, Yoda, and Anakin all manifest themselves as force spirits. Maybe Snoke was powerful enough to come back full on?

Summerhayes
2015-12-24, 04:29 PM
I've kind of missed all the chat about this because I just worked a 17-day week, but umm...

yeah, that was Star Wars. Loved it.

Clay
2015-12-26, 10:21 PM
I finally got to see it. That was so much better than I was expecting it to be...


I could just about buy Finn managing with a light sabre on the first attempt as he was facing off against a stormtrooper with a similar weapon, so presumably he's had some training. Rey doing force mind control and managing to best someone much further along in their training in a light sabre fight (did Ren not get beyond the "Fighting a wall" stage?) seemed more unlikely and made a mockery of all the "Becoming a Jedi takes years" stuff from the originals.

Hmm, no. During the fight you're talking about, the bad guy dude doesn't even have to fight them with a lightsaber as he could just use the force to crush their hearts or whatever. He's fighting them with a lightsaber because he's toying with them, and he's toying with them because he's arrogant from his own superiority. That's... like the whole point of that scene. And neither do the girl nor the guy seem in any way proficient with a light saber. They're just sort of flailing at the dude. The girl only bests him because of both his screw up and because she's probably going to be far better with the force than he is in the sequels.

Could sit and pick holes in it forever if I felt like it, but the whole experience was so emotionally satisfying that I really don't want to.

Yes, this. +1. LIKE, etc.


Oddly between that, the "We do have clone storm troopers" and the mention of the Sith I think this film was actually more respectful to the Prequel trilogy than it was Return of the Jedi. A lot of the film is basically committed to proving the title of that one was a blatant lie.

I think that it does more than that to Return of the Jedi. From what I've read, the original draft for that movie had Han dying in forest on Endor and Luke walking away from everyone at the end like a spaghetti western. In this movie, Han dies and we find out that Luke... wandered off like at the end of the spaghetti western.

inflatable dalek
2015-12-27, 02:44 AM
Hmm, no. During the fight you're talking about, the bad guy dude doesn't even have to fight them with a lightsaber as he could just use the force to crush their hearts or whatever. He's fighting them with a lightsaber because he's toying with them, and he's toying with them because he's arrogant from his own superiority. That's... like the whole point of that scene. And neither do the girl nor the guy seem in any way proficient with a light saber. They're just sort of flailing at the dude. The girl only bests him because of both his screw up and because she's probably going to be far better with the force than he is in the sequels.

Well to be fair, "Why are they fighting with swords when they can just throttle each other with their minds" is a problem with nearly every Jedi fight ever. I think the Vadar/Luke one at the end of Empire is the only one where they really go to town on one of them actually using the Force as a weapon rather than just light sabres. And based on what she managed to do to Daniel Craig on the first attempt (and her grabbing the light sabre over Ren), Ray could just have easily crushed his windpipe as well.




I think that it does more than that to Return of the Jedi. From what I've read, the original draft for that movie had Han dying in forest on Endor and Luke walking away from everyone at the end like a spaghetti western. In this movie, Han dies and we find out that Luke... wandered off like at the end of the spaghetti western. [/QUOTE]

This is where knowing the behind the scenes stuff might have hurt the film a bit. I wonder if I wasn't aware that Ford had been petitioning for Han to be killed right from Empire (the "Frozen in Carbonite" thing was a compromise, IIRC he was the only one of the three leads not to be under a tight three film contract. Hence Han not being in the developed-as-a-potential-sequel Splinter of the Minds Eye book) that his death here would have been even slightly surprising. As it is, it was always going to be a condition of him coming back.

inflatable dalek
2015-12-27, 04:36 AM
Oh, and one bit I thought was odd:


Why did Han and Leia name their son after Obi-Wan's pseudonym rather than his actual name? If they wanted to pay tribute to him it seems a bit dickish, "We're going to name our son after the name you adopted after your greatest failure!". I hope ghost-Kenobi wasn't still hanging around at that point.

Why I Love My Mum Part 5987645: She's does insist on constantly calling Kylo "Ben Solo" in every conversation, because she insists the name he's called once onscreen is easier to remember than what he's called throughout the rest of the movie. Bless her.

Summerhayes
2015-12-27, 09:15 AM
It was a little odd, but right before Han said it, I knew his name was going to be Ben. I don't know what kind of sense it makes, but it does.

Denyer
2015-12-27, 10:55 PM
Went in with spoilers, thoroughly enjoyed it. It might have been the 3D on the showing we went to because the others were sold out but the retro styling worked out really well with a bit of fuzziness (without my actual glasses the effect was very mild 3D).

Skyquake87
2015-12-28, 10:54 PM
Tra-la! i have seen this and right enjoyed it. Probably the first SW film I've seen I didn't think was pap (part of my view on SW is having come to SW after the fact, having seen stuff like Aliens, Terminator and what have you first and found SW to be a bit ...silly by comparison). This is the film that's made me 'get' what the fuss is about. I loved the new guys, Rey and Finn. Rey in particular for being the first strong female lead in sci-fi probably since Ripley (is Daisy Ridley related to Keira Knightley, btw?). She was ace. And I liked Finn being all set to run away and stuffs....this is my 'ground floor', I think. BB8 was cute without being annoying.

I hope if we get to meet the big bald fella in the chair who's obviously evil (he has bad skin and mouldy eyes) he really is massive like that :D

Rylo Ben ... oh I nearly laughed when he took his hat off '-will he be hideously scarred?', no he just looks like he's had too many folk turn him down for a date. Kids, eh?

All that and lots of fun shooty space stuff, and a big daft death planet shooting out sunshine. Basically, FUN.

Except for Threepio. Seriously, Jar Jar gets a hard time when this tin t*** is flapping about the place with nothing useful or interesting to say other than his arm is red. Yes it is. Well done, And whoopee-do.

ganon578
2015-12-29, 04:32 PM
Do we need to 'SPOILER' everything now that we're 1+ weeks out and the title says that Spoilers are abound in this thing?

Hopefully not. I thought Threepio's arm thing was kind of forced since he mentions it and that's about it. It was kinda funny though that he jumps in between Han and Leia unexpectedly. In true Threepio style.

Sades
2015-12-30, 02:07 AM
I'd say not, it's in the title, anyway.

We're seeing the movie tomorrow evening, hopefully. I was pretty "meh" about the whole thing until I came across more spoilers; now I'm really looking forward to seeing it. :up:

Hound
2015-12-31, 06:15 AM
Just got back and thought it was very good.

I was surprised by how much of the movie Harrison Ford was in and just how good he was in it. I expected relatively small cameos from Hamill, Fisher and Ford, so it was quite pleasant to get far more than I was expecting.

Warcry
2016-01-04, 05:42 AM
Yeah, I agree about not spoilering this by now...

Finally saw this today. It's full of plot holes you could fly the Death Star through and what plot does make sense is ripped right from ANH, which by all rights should make it terrible, but it was lots of fun! Not sure it'll stand up at all to repeat viewing, though.

Ford was great I thought, not at all phoning it in like I'd suspected. Han's death was spoiled for me (by a crazy person making a racist diatribe about the movie including a black guy, of all things...) but he was so awesome once he appeared on screen that I forgot all about it until it was about to happen.

Rey was a real highlight for me, but Finn's character made no sense to me and I didn't care for him at all. He went from cowardly to brave and back so many times that I just didn't care by the time he decides to be an action hero. His backstory was cool, though.

And I agree with dalek that the bad guys sucked. Kylo Ren was a whiny emo bitch and not threatening at all even before he destroyed a wall in a childish temper tantrum. I suspect he went on to cut himself while sitting in the dark after the credits rolled. And that makes everyone else on his side look awful by association, especially Emperor Gollum.

ganon578
2016-01-04, 04:45 PM
I dunno, I was kind of intrigued by Kylo Ren. He surely is whiny (family lineage though?) but not a typical Star Wars villain we have seen before - incredibly powerful, skilled, and a complete threat. He's conflicted by the light side, and has significant trouble dealing with that, and he seems quite untrained. I think his instability makes him interesting. He loses to Rey and Finn, which I think may be his wake-up call for increasing his power and depth in the dark side. I saw him as more of a 'raw' bad guy who hasn't seen his full potential yet. It was interesting to see a bad guy that struggles with the pull of the good in him, not the good guy that is pulled to the bad.

Rey was really good. Finn was not quite there, but I liked him anyways. I hope he grows in Episode VIII. You're right though, for a guy who trained as a soldier, he flips between brave and scared a lot. I really liked Poe a lot more than I anticipated.

I'm hoping to go see it again in the next week or so. I don't know if my opinions will change.

Warcry
2016-01-04, 05:13 PM
I dunno, I was kind of intrigued by Kylo Ren. He surely is whiny (family lineage though?) but not a typical Star Wars villain we have seen before - incredibly powerful, skilled, and a complete threat. He's conflicted by the light side, and has significant trouble dealing with that, and he seems quite untrained. I think his instability makes him interesting. He loses to Rey and Finn, which I think may be his wake-up call for increasing his power and depth in the dark side. I saw him as more of a 'raw' bad guy who hasn't seen his full potential yet. It was interesting to see a bad guy that struggles with the pull of the good in him, not the good guy that is pulled to the bad.
When you write it down like that I can see the attraction, but on screen it just didn't work for me. If he'd been more accomplished around those flashes of vulnerability I think it would have carried off better, but the way he was shown I'm not entirely sure why anyone is afraid of him or listens to what he has to say. Though General What'shisname basically ignored him at all turns, so obviously he agrees with me!

Honestly though, I think the main problem is that he just doesn't fit the narrative. The movie tries so hard to be A New Hope-redux, but the main villain calls back more to the whiny prequel Anakin that nobody liked.

Finn was not quite there, but I liked him anyways. I hope he grows in Episode VIII. You're right though, for a guy who trained as a soldier, he flips between brave and scared a lot.
Where it really doesn't work for me is that Finn was apparently brainwashed since infancy to be a killing machine. Surely the troops get a lot of training and evaluation in that time. I'm not sure how he could have made it through all of that and still piss himself the first time he sees action. He should have been screened out and reassigned as a tech or some other, non-front line job if stormies are really the badass best of the best like has always been implied.

If he'd decided to desert because of moral outrage over the slaughter of all those civilians, that I could understand. But the actor didn't play it that way at all. He was all cold sweats and overblown terrified facial expressions until after they were off the Star Destroyer.

I really liked Poe a lot more than I anticipated.
Yeah, Poe was super-cool even though he was in quite a bit less of the movie than I'd expected. I'd expected him to be Lando-tier but he was closer to Wedge.

On another note, Leia fit the "wise old general" role way better than I thought she would. She's not quite as awesome as Rieekan but way cooler than Dodonna, Madine or Ackbar ever were.

Speaking of Ackbar, am I the only one who thought that he looked younger here than in Return of the Jedi? I'd actually assumed it was some other Mon Calamari until I saw it was credited as Ackbar.

Skyquake87
2016-01-04, 09:00 PM
Though General What'shisname basically ignored him at all turns, so obviously he agrees with me!

I loved this guy - clearly seething that their careful plans are going t*ts up at every turn because 'mister-ooh-look-at-me-i've-got-the-force-and-a-silly-mask' has a "better" idea...! :lol:

The First Order would probably have got the job done, were it not for Ben Darkside! Overruled by the idiot in charge at head office...brilliant :p

inflatable dalek
2016-01-04, 09:09 PM
Ben Ren being a bit crap wouldn't be so much of a problem if any of the other villains were even slightly capable. I mean, look at the guy in the Peter Cushing role. A ginger whose balls haven't dropped yet.

It's a shame that, like Return and Phantom Menace (I can't remember if the other Prequels do the same) they felt compelled to return to the "Blow up the big thing in space" ending. It didn't need a doomsday weapon, do these people not remember that Empire--the most popular of the films--is just two hours of the heroes running away from the villains badly? They didn't feel compelled to reveal that Cloud City could suck off suns in order to add an Epic Threat there.

Warcry
2016-01-04, 11:17 PM
I loved this guy - clearly seething that their careful plans are going t*ts up at every turn because 'mister-ooh-look-at-me-i've-got-the-force-and-a-silly-mask' has a "better" idea...! :lol:
It really goes to show how low Ren's status is in the First Order, too. Can you imagine Vader standing there and taking it while Piet or Veers or Jerjerrod or one of the other legion of interchangeable nobodies under his command shit-talked him to the Emperor and contradicted his plans while he was in the room? They'd be on the receiving end of a Force-choke before they got the second sentence out.

But the main problem, as dalek says...

Ben Ren being a bit crap wouldn't be so much of a problem if any of the other villains were even slightly capable. I mean, look at the guy in the Peter Cushing role. A ginger whose balls haven't dropped yet.
...was that nobody else on the bad side was any better. The general seemed to know what was up, but he was so unimportant that I don't think he even got named on-screen. And Phasma was no better, only getting about three lines in a vain attempt to manufacture her as the next Boba Fett-style do-nothing-who-becomes-a-merchandising-hit.

If there was someone, anyone on Team Evil who was even remotely competent or threatening, then Ren's pouting wouldn't be nearly so annoying. Really, he needed to be the second-in-command or designated attack dog of the movie's true villain (no, a hologram of Replacement Palpatine doesn't count) so that he had room to grow without completely scuppering any sense of menace that the bad guys had.

It didn't need a doomsday weapon, do these people not remember that Empire--the most popular of the films--is just two hours of the heroes running away from the villains badly? They didn't feel compelled to reveal that Cloud City could suck off suns in order to add an Epic Threat there.
I think they felt obliged since the film had lifted all of ANH's plot to that point, but you're right. It would have worked a lot better without. The stupidly-huge Death Star ripoff never actually felt like a threat because (in spite of blowing up several planets) it never actually hurt any of the characters we're supposed to root for. Nuking Alderaan in the original was a gut-punch because it tore Leia's heart out, but I honestly couldn't even tell you the name of the place that got turned into an asteroid belt here. Rey's rescue, keeping Luke's location from the baddies and Han trying to redeem his son were all way more interesting and compelling plotlines. Unfortunately, I guess they decided that none of those were sufficiently a "blockbuster" way to end the movie.

Heinrad
2016-01-10, 02:18 AM
Went and saw it today, and loved it. Despite having to deal with the audience. It was great fun.

ganon578
2016-01-11, 04:54 PM
Honestly though, I think the main problem is that he just doesn't fit the narrative. The movie tries so hard to be A New Hope-redux, but the main villain calls back more to the whiny prequel Anakin that nobody liked.

Hey, it runs in the family. Watching ANH recently, Luke is pretty damn whiny too. Not Padawan Anakin whiny, but whiny. Why is Leia the only Skywalker to have her shit together?

On another note, Leia fit the "wise old general" role way better than I thought she would. She's not quite as awesome as Rieekan but way cooler than Dodonna, Madine or Ackbar ever were.

Saw it a second time over the weekend, and I really liked Leia in this role. She played a fantastic part.

Speaking of Ackbar, am I the only one who thought that he looked younger here than in Return of the Jedi? I'd actually assumed it was some other Mon Calamari until I saw it was credited as Ackbar.

I heard the voice and knew it was Ackbar. I don't know how Mon Cals age, but I see what you mean.

Ben Ren being a bit crap wouldn't be so much of a problem if any of the other villains were even slightly capable. I mean, look at the guy in the Peter Cushing role. A ginger whose balls haven't dropped yet.

I didn't really care for General Hux on the first viewing. I saw him as coming a bit over the top screaming at everyone and really trying to assert dominance. On the second go, I liked him a bit more.

It's a shame that, like Return and Phantom Menace (I can't remember if the other Prequels do the same) they felt compelled to return to the "Blow up the big thing in space" ending. It didn't need a doomsday weapon, do these people not remember that Empire--the most popular of the films--is just two hours of the heroes running away from the villains badly? They didn't feel compelled to reveal that Cloud City could suck off suns in order to add an Epic Threat there.

It's funny that 4 out of the 7 movies are 'blow up the giant space thing'. Hopefully there won't be any more rehashes of that story in VIII & IX. The ones that don't end in a trench run are actually pretty entertaining endings. With ANH being the first movie, it's easy to see the Death Star run as a last ditch effort to save the day on impossible odds, which also served as a huge sigh of relief for moviegoers. ROTJ basically did the same with a good lightsaber duel thrown in. TPM's was shoe-horned in - this is my least favorite of the bunch since kid Anakin stumbles his way inside and accidently pulls the trigger while aimed at the most important part of the ship. Why couldn't they just have the Naboo version of Poe Dameron do this? TFA really crams it in, which I didn't much care for, but at least they joke about it a bit.

It really goes to show how low Ren's status is in the First Order, too. Can you imagine Vader standing there and taking it while Piet or Veers or Jerjerrod or one of the other legion of interchangeable nobodies under his command shit-talked him to the Emperor and contradicted his plans while he was in the room? They'd be on the receiving end of a Force-choke before they got the second sentence out.

I took it as a little bit different dynamic, especially on the second viewing. At first, I had the same impression as you did, but there's a couple lines of dialog between Hux and Ren that suggests they are essentially equal ranking from different sides (Hux as the military commander, Ren as the force-user). Kylo has a few lines of dialog in the movie that suggest he ultimately outranks Hux since he's Snoke's apprentice.

But alas, I agree with you and don't see Vader just standing there and taking it. Even if he chokes someone he's not supposed to, I don't he would worry about it.

But the main problem, as dalek says...

...was that nobody else on the bad side was any better. The general seemed to know what was up, but he was so unimportant that I don't think he even got named on-screen. And Phasma was no better, only getting about three lines in a vain attempt to manufacture her as the next Boba Fett-style do-nothing-who-becomes-a-merchandising-hit.

If there was someone, anyone on Team Evil who was even remotely competent or threatening, then Ren's pouting wouldn't be nearly so annoying. Really, he needed to be the second-in-command or designated attack dog of the movie's true villain (no, a hologram of Replacement Palpatine doesn't count) so that he had room to grow without completely scuppering any sense of menace that the bad guys had.

My hope is that ultimately Ren will become that villain. He seems really green in this movie as a baddie. We still don't know how far along he was in his training before he turned. All the other dark side villains to this point have had a significant amount of training and are rather composed: Palpatine was evil since the beginning of time, Darth Maul was trained as a Sith from a young age, Dooku was a fully trained Jedi Knight and politician (for lack of a better term) with years of experience before joining the dark side, and Anakin was a war-hardened Knight and nearly Master by the time Palpatine turned him. All of those guys seem to have much more discipline than Kylo Ren, which at this point seems his biggest fault. Snoke says at the end of the film that he needs to complete Ren's training. Hopefully that, coupled with his failure with Rey throughout will temper him into a massive bad guy.

I think they felt obliged since the film had lifted all of ANH's plot to that point, but you're right. It would have worked a lot better without. The stupidly-huge Death Star ripoff never actually felt like a threat because (in spite of blowing up several planets) it never actually hurt any of the characters we're supposed to root for. Nuking Alderaan in the original was a gut-punch because it tore Leia's heart out, but I honestly couldn't even tell you the name of the place that got turned into an asteroid belt here. Rey's rescue, keeping Luke's location from the baddies and Han trying to redeem his son were all way more interesting and compelling plotlines. Unfortunately, I guess they decided that none of those were sufficiently a "blockbuster" way to end the movie.

Agreed. The only point I see of the Starkiller Base sequence, is to entirely wipe out the major players in the New Republic. The First Order succeeded in that regard, but the emotional impact isn't seen in TFA. We don't even get to know what planets those were, and who really is there when they're destroyed. That whole sequence, while cool, was really anticlimactic to me, even though billions lost lives and the Republic is essentially DOA.

ganon578
2016-01-12, 07:09 PM
Oh, another thought I had - Kylo Ren's lightsaber. According to a Force Awakens visual dictionary published by DK Books, his lightsaber is designed as such because it utilizes a cracked kyber crystal. The crossguard on the lightsaber is actually a vent for the cracked crystal, as to allow excess energy to be expelled. The ragged form of the blade is also due in part to the crystal's nature.

If the red blades of the dark side are typically produced by synthetic crystals, why would Ren's be cracked? My theory is that along with Vader's helmet, Ren secured Vader's Sith lightsaber - it would have fallen in a chasm when Luke severed Vader's hand at the end of VI - so it would have been possibly damaged after the fall. That could explain it...

Clay
2016-01-12, 08:10 PM
Apropos.

inflatable dalek
2016-01-12, 08:51 PM
He's also really good at killing unarmed pensioners standing very still right in front of him.

ganon578
2016-01-18, 08:07 PM
Apropos.

THIS.

dura
2016-05-19, 11:55 PM
I don't like how they killed off Han Solo.

You don't know where this new villain comes from. Didn't "Return of the Jedi" definitively show that the Dark side and the Empire were defeated?

What's with them being rebels again?

Cyberstrike nTo
2016-05-20, 12:36 AM
I don't like how they killed off Han Solo.

You don't know where this new villain comes from. Didn't "Return of the Jedi" definitively show that the Dark side and the Empire were defeated?

What's with them being rebels again?

The reasons was because:
1) It shows that Kylo Ren and the First Order are serious bad guys.

2) Harrison Ford had been wanting Han Solo to die since The Empire Strikes Back because he felt that Solo had nothing more to offer the series.

Kylo Ren is the son of Han Solo and General Leia who Luke tried to train as a Jedi and Snoke turned him to the Dark Side.

As too who Snoke and The First Order are I guess we'll find out in Star Wars 8. Although the First Order seem like a bunch of Imperial wannabes.

The Dark Side can never truly been defeated it is part of the Star Wars Universe and part of us, the best we can do is too try and have a balance between our dark and light sides.

The Resistance and the First Order are fighting in the Outer Rim which is basically the rough equivalent of the nowhere. My GUESS until the First Order blew up that planet I would guess that few people out side of the Senate knew anything about it.

dura
2016-05-20, 02:31 AM
Isn't it lame that one scene, Anakin interfering, stopped Master Windu from killing Senator Palpatine, who he had defeated and at his mercy, caused all this trouble? Think how happy and different things would have been if Master Windu killed Darth Sidious. Anakin and Padmay would have married and lived happily ever after. Doesn't that sound nice?

dura
2016-05-21, 03:50 AM
Rey killed Kylo Ren. Why did that Sith tell his henchman to find him to complete his training?

Can Han Solo be brought back?

Skyquake87
2016-05-21, 03:00 PM
Rey defeated Kylo Ren. She didn't kill him.

Han Solo was stabbed through the chest with a lightsaber and then fell a very long way down. I don't think there'll be any coming back from that (massive internal organ damage, plus what the impact of the fall would do to the human body).

Cyberstrike nTo
2016-05-21, 03:08 PM
Rey killed Kylo Ren. Why did that Sith tell his henchman to find him to complete his training?

Can Han Solo be brought back?

IIRC Rey defeated Kylo Ren but didn't kill him. He certainly is injured Chewie shot him in the nuts right after he killed Solo (I hope Leia isn't expecting any grandchildren, because ouch) and his battles with Finn and Rey.

Other than as a Force ghost or as a flashback/memory, I really doubt it. I mean Harrison Ford is in his mid 70s and the fact that he agreed to do Star Wars 7 was basically so he could be written out of it, something he's wanted since 1980, and he finally got it. He said that he loved the character but felt there was nothing else for Han Solo other than to die that would move the story along and so they sent Han Solo went out as a hero who was trying to save his son.

dura
2016-05-21, 06:54 PM
IIRC Rey defeated Kylo Ren but didn't kill him. He certainly is injured Chewie shot him in the nuts right after he killed Solo (I hope Leia isn't expecting any grandchildren, because ouch) and his battles with Finn and Rey.

Other than as a Force ghost or as a flashback/memory, I really doubt it. I mean Harrison Ford is in his mid 70s and the fact that he agreed to do Star Wars 7 was basically so he could be written out of it, something he's wanted since 1980, and he finally got it. He said that he loved the character but felt there was nothing else for Han Solo other than to die that would move the story along and so they sent Han Solo went out as a hero who was trying to save his son.

So, what about Han Solo and Leia. I guess he still hasn't gotten over her kissing Luke on the mouth very passionately.

HeavyArms
2016-05-22, 04:48 AM
So, what about Han Solo and Leia. I guess he still hasn't gotten over her kissing Luke on the mouth very passionately.

He must've gotten over it if they had a kid together, and didn't leave Leia until after Ben went Dark Side.

Also, how can Han Solo be brought back in any way shape or form if he wasn't Force-sensitive and if he was stabbed in the chest, fell down a massive hole in a planet that blew up.

dura
2016-05-22, 04:58 AM
I just heard that they interviewed Harrison Ford and asked him if he would be willing to come back for the next two movies. This was before I saw the movie. Then when I saw the movie just last week I was confused for that very reason; he got stabbed through the heart. I was very surprised.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-05-22, 10:49 AM
Yes, that would be spoiler prevention. If people know he's not going to be back for Episode VIII when they watch VII then it isn't a surprise when he dies. So they pretend he might be in the next one when he knows he won't.

dura
2016-05-22, 09:23 PM
Maybe Han Solo can come back for Episode 3.1. There's plenty for that character to do. If he would have been killed off in Empire Strikes Back, how would he have gotten with Leia and had a son?

Notabot
2016-05-22, 11:49 PM
MIDICHLORIANS!

dura
2016-05-23, 01:12 AM
I want them to introduce time travel and different timelines so we can see Yoda, Darth Vader, Luke, Leia, Master Jin, Obiwan, Master Windu over and over again in different movies.

Skyquake87
2016-05-23, 07:13 PM
...or you could just rewatch the films they're in. Time travel is fine, but it doesn't have to be in everything. Mind, I'm not much of a fan for rehashing the past. I'd much rather see something new done.

And personally, until Force Awakens, I found the Star Wars less impressive than everyone thinks it is. But then my star sign is Philistine.

dura
2016-05-23, 09:38 PM
Princess Leia was also supposed to be a Jedi. It was alluded to by the spirit of Obiwan. Yoda said Luke is our last hope. The Obiwan responded, "There is still another." He was referring to Leia. This has not been explored.

Darth Sidious was not supposed to die at the end of "Return of the Jedi". Leia was supposed to become a Jedi and Luke and Leia were supposed to take down the Empire together, like He-man and She-ra taking down the evil Horde.

dura
2016-05-24, 02:32 AM
There's no way Rey with no training can beat a seasoned Sith Lord with Jedi training like Kylo-Ren.

It really cheapens what it means to be a Jedi or Sith.

Cyberstrike nTo
2016-05-24, 02:17 PM
There's no way Rey with no training can beat a seasoned Sith Lord with Jedi training like Kylo-Ren.

It really cheapens what it means to be a Jedi or Sith.

Who said Kylo Ren was either a Jedi or Sith? He's clearly not a Jedi by his actions and Snoke only refers to him as The Master of the Knights of Ren, and in a flashback showed more than 2 of them wiping Luke's Jedi apprentices which goes against everything known and stated about the Sith.

dura
2016-05-24, 04:53 PM
I want to see Carrie Fish dawn the gold bikini again.

Skyquake87
2016-05-24, 06:54 PM
...I don't

Sades
2016-05-24, 06:59 PM
I do.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-05-24, 07:02 PM
I don't know what dawning means in that context and I'm scared to Google it, so I can't really comment on the subject.

Yes I realise that saying I can't comment is technically commenting, but it's not like this is even the third least useful post in the thread

Skyquake87
2016-05-24, 07:16 PM
...I think dura means 'don' as in to put on or wear.

At least I hope so.

Cyberstrike nTo
2016-05-24, 11:50 PM
I want to see Carrie Fish dawn the gold bikini again.

She won't and has stated she felt uncomfortable (or she even down rated hated it) and has reportedly recommended to Daisy Riddley not to let them to do something like that to her.

dura
2016-05-25, 01:07 AM
No one made Carrie Fisher put on the gold bikini. She did it to further her career.

She knew that if she showed more honey she would get more honey.

She ought to work out and get in shape and squeeze into the same gold bikini. I bet she'll still look hot in it.

Skyquake87
2016-05-25, 07:28 PM
I think this discussion needs knocking on the head, dura. Leching over women is never attractive. Cyberstrike is probably on the money with this one. I doubt very much that it was done to further her career.

ganon578
2016-05-25, 09:15 PM
While Carrie Fisher was indeed attractive in the bikini, it's definitely not my favorite look from the OT. I prefer bad ass Leia in the Hoth outfit toting a blaster pistol and calling Han a nerf herder.

Back on Ep VII topic, I thought she did a great job as General Organa. With the issues she has (bipolar disorder IIRC?) she knocked it out of the park. Firm and to the point, while also warm and caring.

We just started watching this one again, this time with the kids. It's a good movie, but I think it moves a little fast for the young ones. We got up to Maz Kanata's castle before we had to shut it off for bedtime. My kids (5 & 3) did surprisingly well during the rathtar scene, but I think that it was helped by my wife and I chattering a bit through it.

I asked my son who his favorite character so far in the movie was, and he replied with "Luke" (his fave from the other 6). So I replied "Uh, buddy, Luke hasn't shown up yet in this one." "Uuummm. Finn then." Made me smile before reading him some books and putting him to bed. I think he's gonna be kinda sad when Luke shows up for all of 10 seconds and doesn't ignite his lightsaber.

dura
2016-05-25, 10:14 PM
Edited for inappropriate post, which has been saved and noted in the Staff forum. You were asked once in this thread to stop leching. This is strike two.

Denyer
2016-05-26, 09:58 PM
Also, messaging staff asking if you can be friends and simultaneously insulting them for not wanting a lad's mag tone in a film thread is pretty stupid.

Back to the new film, if anyone's got anything deeper than "phwoar look at that, they're begging for it" level comments.

dura
2016-05-26, 10:45 PM
What makes you think Kylo-Ren is still alive. It clearly looked like Rey killed him with a light saber which is just retribution for his killing of Han Solo.

It was Princess Leia's fault for telling Han to bring him back, and that there was still good in him. Han's blood is on her hands.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-05-27, 07:52 AM
What makes you think Kylo-Ren is still alive.

I'm guessing it's something to do with the fact he was still alive.

Adam Driver filming the next one at the moment is probably also a minor contributing factor.

dura
2016-05-27, 09:34 PM
Anakin being redeemed after committing mass murder of children does not make sense.

Padmay just dying and orphaning her twins was selfish.

Does this mean I can be redeemed and given a second chance, by removing those strikes against me?

Denyer
2016-05-30, 12:38 AM
Trying to keep up a pointless argument with staff via private message probably isn't going to end well unless they find it amusing, put it that way.

It's been a very long time since I saw Ep2 but do seem to recall that Padme basically forgets the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfevBIsVG1o bit.

Cliffjumper
2016-08-22, 12:13 AM
Saw it. Loved it. The new characters were fantastic, there was adventure, movement, nostalgia, a preposterously old Harrison Ford, an organic set-up for fun continuing adventures, effects that didn't look like effects, consistent haircuts...

Rogue One is probably going to be ****ing dreadful and if it's not one of the others will be as Disney'll carpet-bomb us until no-one cares. But for now there's Force Awakens and it's perfect and all is full of love.

Skyquake87
2016-08-22, 07:20 PM
It is good isn't it? I liked it so much I bought the DVD and have watched it a few times over. As someone who is totally indifferent to Star Wars, I've really been sucked in with this film (although not so much as to be bothered rewatching the first six), mainly due to Ray and Finn being so likeable and ace and feeling like proper characters that I might actually give a hoot about, compared to the one-dimensional cyphers everyone else feels to me.

Cliffjumper
2016-08-22, 11:14 PM
Yep, all four new leads were pretty good; Poe got a little squeezed but will probably come into his own a bit more with Han out of the way, Rey's just fantastic without being a shouty Whedon-style new femme cliche and Finn's a great anchor. Kylo Ren came off nicely as well,a new Vader without being a new Vader or something as artless as Darth Maul. The whole tone was just incredible, nostalgic and fresh at the same time and some of the direction was incredible - tracking Finn shooting Stormtroopers while Poe flies overhead bombing them, pow.

Thought most of the oldies showed pretty well, though I was genuinely a little shocked at how old Harrison Ford and Carrie Fisher looked and sounded. It used them much better than shoehorning everyone into the prequels and coming up with various convoluted ways of having them not knowing any of the events anyway.

Talking of the prequels like no-one else but me was, what does anyone think of the Sithlord Jar-Jar theory (https://www.reddit.com/comments/3qvj6w/)? I don't for a minute think Snoke is going to turn out to be Jar-Jar and even if Disney were that brave the attention the theory's got has probably blown it but the case for his being planned as the big bad of the prequels is incredibly persuasive, especially when you consider that by definition nothing Jar-Jar does in the films is by accident - we're not talking an actor who happens to wave his arms in the background or misses his mark and it gets left in, we're talking an intentional CGI animation.

Personally I think Lucas took it too far, made the character too annoying, too stupid-seeming, too plain primitive-looking and missed the only reveal point that might have deflected criticism (i.e. if it was going to be done a new last scene for Phantom Menace of Palpatine reporting to a shadow-covered deep-voiced Jar-Jar about how their plan was in motion was the only way to do it) for the proposed reveal to save either Jar-Jar or the trilogy but the more you examine the evidence the more it looks like that was the intention.

inflatable dalek
2016-08-23, 03:56 PM
I do think it's a shame TFA went so heavily with the original film homages, I remember people at the time going "Well it has to because it's the first one, but all the others will be new and fresh!", but it basically leaves Rouge One--a film that seems to be based entirely on love letters to the original trilogy--nowhere to go. I mean, it's got the actual Death Star instead of a Bigger Death Star but other than Vadar himself it feels like TFA touched all those bases more than enough.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-08-23, 04:29 PM
Rouge One

That's Red Dwarf, fool.

inflatable dalek
2016-08-24, 04:10 PM
That's Red Dwarf, fool.

Maybe I'm complaining about the safe rehashing of old Star Wars ideas in the Red Dwarf promotional material?

Brendocon 2.0
2016-08-24, 04:42 PM
Yeah, sorry, my bad, that's blatantly what you were doing...

tfforlife12
2016-08-29, 01:01 PM
Let's all face it these star wars spinoffs will be terrible.

Cliffjumper
2016-08-29, 11:37 PM
Longer thoughts after reading:

- Didn't mind Kylo Ren as much as many do; he's clearly a decoy or pawn villain similar to Darth Maul rather than the bad guy; felt they did a good job of showing him as a Vader fanboy with a lot to learn. The impression I got was that the First Order had been enjoying an easy little start with no Jedi on the board, several key rebel figures out of the way and so on; The Force Awakens was their first serious test and Ren comes out of the film stronger for resolving his immediate issues and what seems to be his first real force battle. I think he's going to be a lot easier to appreciate when we've seen his whole arc and the film did a good job of leaving him open to either path; he's not beyond redemption but he's also got plenty of scope to become the big wheel of the dark side. Considering that the first line on the character sheet was almost certainly "DON'T JUST MAKE HIM ANOTHER VADER WE'LL GET DESTROYED" he was a passable villain; I'd agree he probably would have benefitted from stronger support though with a mean Tarkin-style superior who could be the nominal bad guy of the film and get killed off at the end - but then that might have been far too close to Vader. Bit of a damned either way; seems to be TFA chose to take one for the team by laying the foundations.

- Same with Finn; found his breakdown quite plausible within the context of the First Order, a phoenix from the Empire and thus still flawed; considering their losses in the OT and the move away from Clones there's plenty of scope there and I felt his character was nice and realistic - moments of idealism giving him courage then moments of "holy **** I'm out of my depth". Again, think we're going to appreciate him more after the three films.

- Despite my dislike of them as films I'm glad they acknowledged the prequels a bit. They're out now and on paper make a decent-ish backstory, just the execution sucked and a lot of the material simply didn't make for exciting movies, especially when directed by someone who hadn't made a film for a couple of decades, was arrogant and was over-reliant on effects which weren't up to scratch. The broad strokes were good - we get big big hints in the original that Obi-Wan was flawed and guilty, for instance.

- Turns out Carrie Fisher wasn't hamming it up for that Big Bang Theory cameo. It was a little bit of a shame to see Leia reduced to Team Mom however when Han's out there still shooting the **** out of people; while the moment's probably gone it'd be nice to see her back in the field rather than entirely as a general.

- Loved Poe; he fills that Wedge gap of 'normal not-Jedi rebel who isn't cannon fodder' and has a lot more scope. Apparently they asked Denis Lawson to come back and he said no as it'd be boring, which is actually kind-of cool.

- Really would love to have known more about von Sydow's character, a genuine adventurer with apparently no real powers and resources beyond his own wits but still taking on the First Order.

- Felt the final scene was nailed perfectly; we still know so little of why Luke went and there's a massive amount of ambiguity in there that lent a wonderful note of discord to the last scene. We were expecting a baton pass or a Yoda reference, what we actually got was much more interesting. Best bit of acting Hamill's ever done.

- Abrams overall found a good mix of doing stuff we knew was going to happen, doing the opposite of stuff we were expecting to happen and going his own way. And Rian Johnson for the second, golly gosh!

- Felt C3PO was great, jibbering about his arm and twattering away during Han and Leia's big scene; I get why he's not everyone' cup of tea but the difference with him and R2 has always been they're not actually in it that much.

- Loved things like the Ackbar and Nieb Nub cameos; just there in the background being familiar in exactly the place you'd expect them to be rather than the "HEY LOOK AT THIS" SE/prequel cameos.

- #wewantlando

Selkadoom
2016-08-30, 07:44 AM
I'll say I greatly enjoyed the movie, though I couldn't help but feel a slight niggling on the back of my head that reminded me of a similar storyline from the now non-canon Expanded Universe books involving the Solo Twins, whom Kylo very much fills in the role of Jacen, as another Skywalker being tempted by the dark side and starting a war. Granted Jacen had literal decades of development and was a much different overall character but the similarities are still there.