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inflatable dalek
2015-09-26, 08:42 PM
Because we loooooooooooooooooooooove to talk Star Trek in other threads. So it's time we had one of our own!

This picks up from that thread on that other franchise. Can't remember the name of it now. Buck Rogers or something.


I think the first film actually set up a good reason for him to be more oddball than the original Scotty (he's basically gone stir crazy), and for me it creates a nice contrast to the more straight laced others (it's telling he's the one who doesn't have a problem telling Kirk where to get off with the torpedoes).


It gives a good excuse for him to be the silly joke character, yes. I don't think that plays well into giving him actual, serious plotlines though. After the first one, my reaction was "Oh, Scotty's just being nuts again..." Especially since randomly flipping out over torpedoes is a bit odd to begin with. I mean, this can't be the first time that classified, experimental weapons have been loaded aboard a Starfleet ship. It's the sort of thing that happens all the time in real life.

Torpedoes that are supposed to be insanely advanced and which no one will let him look at and which they're going to use to bomb the shit out of a region on the homeworld of a race who don't need much of an excuse to start a beef with Star Fleet. All sensible warning signs and it's only Kirk being out for revenge for Pike that makes him initially not see it.


Troi certainly looked better once they put her in proper clothes.

OH MY GOD YES. In spite of being nearly a decade older she was so much sexier once Jellico made her start dressing like a normal human being. Before that it was impossible to take her seriously. And her wardrobes in the films were even better. Honestly I'm not sure how they managed to make her look so bad earlier on unless they were actively trying to.

The scripts started treating her with a lot more respect around the same time, though, so I'm not sure that it was just the costume change that made her more attractive.

Yeah, I mean who would want a psychiatrist dressed like that? Who could read your thoughts? Barcley reacted in the only sane way to being confronted with that.

There's a mentallity in Berman era Trek costumes that "Tight" automatically equates to "Sexy", as if being able to count a woman's ribs is a real turn on. Troi, Seven, and T'Pol (oddly Kira wore a similar catsuit but it actually worked for her somehow) were all played by women who looked much more stunning in real life they they ever did in their catsuits that often looked made out of old carpet. Sadly Troi was the only one who got to dress sensibly and then drastically add to the sex appeal, that, let's face it, was the only reason for the character being there.


Female costume designs are pretty awful all-around in TNG-and-later Trek. It says something when the blatantly oversexed stuff from the 60s show still represent the best female wardrobe the franchise has ever seen.

Thesis in the 60's seemed to have a knack for coming up with outfits that looked basically obscene but which the women generally seemed to have enjoyed wearing, you'll often hear them saying in interviews how much they loved the clothes. Being confident in what you're wearing (and you know, able to breath. I believe Jeri Ryan passed out at least once) likely makes a huge amount of difference.


Ironically she, like Troi, looked her best when they put her in a Starfleet uniform for the last few episodes of the last season. And that was pretty clearly her least sexed-up outfit of all.

Yah, the FC uniforms generally looked better on everyone that the previous efforts, and in the case of the women though they were clearly tighter than those of the men they managed to still look like something you'd wear to work.

Odd how Crusher and the Dax's managed to avoid it.


Crusher actually ran around in a catsuit version of the standard uniform for some reason during the TV series, even after the guys moved to the more conservatively-cut outfits in season three. But then she wore a lab coat over it 90% of the time, so I'm not sure what the point was. The overall effect was no more revealing than if they'd just put her in a looser outfit like the guys.

All the women's uniform's (unless they were very old) were still the catsuit version though (to be fair, lower ranking men stayed in them after season 3 switched to the two piece as well. But if any had a decent role--Barcley, O'Brien, Wesley after his totally random promotion--they'd get the newer uniform automatically whilst Ro, Crusher and post Jellico Troi didn't), it's gratuitously sexist but leaves her with more dignity than Troi's catsuits ever did her.


Factor in Worf seems to be asleep, Riker looks terrible (the topless scene is the most terrifying in the film) and I'm not sure if Geordi is in it and it's an odd film for the regulars. Ironically considering he wanted to be killed off as he was getting too old to play an android, Spiner gets away with it because the make up hides a multitude of sins.


TBH I think Data threw me off the most. He'd been gaining weight slowly since he started playing data but for Nemesis he was noticeably pudgy. That's not a big deal for a human character but it's a bit more obvious when the ageless robot gains weight.

The One With Data's Mom in season 7 actually handwaves Data's changing appearance by saying he has an ageing program. It's a gratuitous retcon that contradicts all sorts of earlier lines of dialogue, but it was a sensible retcon to deal with the issue. Then they almost instantly forgot about this and come All Good Things Data is shown not to age in 20 years...


Re: Riker, his beardless turn in Insurrection is way more terrifying than anything that happens in Nemesis.

If only they'd have Picard grow hair, I'd forgive the film its crap bits.

Hey, Picard acting in a completely different way to how he did in the episode with exactly the same plot where it was all brown people in peril and they were led by a wrinkly old man rather than a milf doesn't make it out of character, it just reveals he was a really horrible racist all along.


That whole thing was silly anyway. Picard is the polar opposite of Kirk temperament-wise and would have loved being an admiral or retiring to become an ambassador and putter away in archaeology digs on his off-days.

Yeah, shows like Redemption make it clear he'd be in his element bossing lots of ships about. A promotion to Admiral for him and Riker carrying on as Captain of the Enterprise with them teaming up every couple of years for a film would have made much more sense.

Mind, Generations is a bloody awful film for Picard. I don't know if it was Moore's TOS fanboy tendencies making him overwrite Kirk as The Best or Shatner's demands, but the whole film gives them an insanely unbalanced relationship. Picard is more than Kirk's equal and their team up should have been level pegging but instead Kirk is just so much better in every way. Picard sits around cring and living a bizare Victorian fantasy and needs help to punch an old man.

Kirk's ultimate fantasy is to ruggedly chop wood up in the mountains. He saves the Enterprise in the first ten minutes of the film. He basically treats Picard as his camp sidekick. That basically undid the TNG films before they started.

Tomalak was an odd one in that the character was completely generic (and not even really in his last two appearances), pretty much every other Romulan Commander could have been made him with absolutely no rewriting. That's entirely down to the actor and it's a shame both the Selar idea and Babylon 5 basically stopped him showing up.

Yeah, it's a testament to how awesome Andreas Katsulas was that people loved the character in spite of him basically never doing anything of note.

I thought Sela was the coolest thing ever when I was a kid, but as an adult...wow she sucked, didn't she? Denise Crosby was probably the weakest actor from the original main cast but even then they really didn't give her much to work with.

Yeah, she might have improved if she'd stayed on the show as the other weak links did, but she really doesn't have the clout to carry Lead Villain status. All her reveal does is drag down the pace of Redemption 2 as the plot has to stop for ten minutes so she can be explained. And then Picard just goes "Well, it doesn't matter" and it never gets mentioned again. Ten minutes later Worf sees her on TV and doesn't even react!

Yeah, there's actually a reasonable explanation for him being a very different character: We've only ever seen Khan as a freshly woken up in the 23rd century uncertain plotter with his charisma turned up to 11 to get people onside or as completely off his tits and driven mad by isolation and death. A version woken up early who's had time to adjust, who's been working got Starfleet for at least a few years (and the idea that the Federation would react badly to the destruction of Vulcan is a good one) should be a very different man. It's just a bad sort of different though.


True enough. But by the same token, if he's so changed as to be a completely different person then why even bother using Khan to start with?

I suppose if they'd just kept him That Bloke (and the Khan reveal is one of the weak areas of the film because it doesn't really explain who he is, the natural reaction to "I AM KHAN!" is "Err, great") people would just moan that having a super strong villain was just a Khan ripoff regardless of any other differences.

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-09-26, 08:54 PM
Well, yes, I see your point, but is Darth Vader really Luke Skywalker's father?

inflatable dalek
2015-09-26, 08:55 PM
Well, yes, I see your point, but is Darth Vader really Luke Skywalker's father?

Hoist by my own petard.

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-09-26, 09:08 PM
Hoist by my own petard.

I think you mean "Picard", and don't bring Hoist into this. This board has nothing to do with Transformers.

Bidi-bidi-bidi-Buck. ;)

Sades
2015-09-27, 12:43 AM
Get out, this thread is specifically for Dalek and Warcry! It's on the thread title and everything!

Brendocon 2.0
2015-09-27, 03:36 PM
I don't think taking this to its own thread is enough.

It needs taking to its own forum.

Another forum.

A long way from this one.

Like a Star Trek forum or something. Presumably something like that exists. The internet's full of weird niche shit.

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-09-27, 03:48 PM
Like Jonathan Frakes' terrifying beardless visage?

Warcry
2015-09-29, 09:04 PM
Torpedoes that are supposed to be insanely advanced and which no one will let him look at and which they're going to use to bomb the shit out of a region on the homeworld of a race who don't need much of an excuse to start a beef with Star Fleet. All sensible warning signs and it's only Kirk being out for revenge for Pike that makes him initially not see it.
Right, and "We're going to senselessly bomb Quo'nos!" would be a reasonable thing to get upset about. "I'm not allowed to tinker with the equipment we're going to use to senselessly bomb Quo'nos", less so.

Yeah, I mean who would want a psychiatrist dressed like that? Who could read your thoughts? Barcley reacted in the only sane way to being confronted with that.
And it's not only the patients who would be uncomfortable. Deanna must have had super thick skin to not be bothered by all the patients ogling her while she was trying to work. Though I suppose she'd have to be used to it, considering Betazoid culture in general and her own mother's behaviour.

Yah, the FC uniforms generally looked better on everyone that the previous efforts, and in the case of the women though they were clearly tighter than those of the men they managed to still look like something you'd wear to work.
The First Contact-style uniforms are one of the few Trek costume styles that I actually like, to be honest. The TOS ones just look like casual wear and the early TNG skin-tight stuff were just awkward. The late TNG stuff looked good but were a bit too stiff and formal (Geordi looks ridiculous crawling through the Jefferies Tubes in the things), and you could say the same for the gorgeous-but-impractical red outfits from the later TOS films. The early DS9/Voyager uniforms had potential as futuristic work-overalls, but they were cut weird and didn't wind up looking all that practical -- I think the Enterprise uniforms finally managed to pull off the look they were going for with these.

The First Contact outfits are a happy medium for me. They look dressy, but not uncomfortable or impractical.

(I honestly don't remember what the TMP uniforms even look like.)

All the women's uniform's (unless they were very old) were still the catsuit version though (to be fair, lower ranking men stayed in them after season 3 switched to the two piece as well. But if any had a decent role--Barcley, O'Brien, Wesley after his totally random promotion--they'd get the newer uniform automatically whilst Ro, Crusher and post Jellico Troi didn't), it's gratuitously sexist but leaves her with more dignity than Troi's catsuits ever did her.
I'm pretty sure I saw a few female extras wandering around in male-cut uniforms from time to time, but I'd imagine that's just because they stuffed the extras into whatever fit and didn't think too much about it.

I never really noticed that Ro and Crusher weren't wearing the looser-cut outfits until this last watch-through, but Shelby's really bothered me. I think I just noticed it because she wasn't as...statuesque as most of the recurring female cast.

Yeah, shows like Redemption make it clear he'd be in his element bossing lots of ships about. A promotion to Admiral for him and Riker carrying on as Captain of the Enterprise with them teaming up every couple of years for a film would have made much more sense.
That probably would have been the way to go after Generations, I agree. I don't think it would have even changed the plot of the following movies all that much. It would have been a tad more difficult to get Picard involved in First Contact if he wasn't captain of his own ship, but Insurrection and Nemesis both start off with diplomatic missions that a flag officer would plausibly be assigned to.

Oh, and I just remembered another reason why Insurrection was hopelessly stupid -- they spent all that time dicking around on a backwards nothing planet while the Federation was embroiled in a desperate war for its own survival against the Dominion. You couldn't even handwave it as "no, no, it's being released in the same year as season 6/7 of DS9 but it's actually set a few years before" because they actively call it out. I mean, hell, the Breen are bombing San Francisco and the Jem'hadar are rampaging across Betazed. Don't you guys have better things to do?

Mind, Generations is a bloody awful film for Picard. I don't know if it was Moore's TOS fanboy tendencies making him overwrite Kirk as The Best or Shatner's demands, but the whole film gives them an insanely unbalanced relationship. Picard is more than Kirk's equal and their team up should have been level pegging but instead Kirk is just so much better in every way.
Honestly I think the movie treats Kirk like shit too. He starts off as a useless old man and segues into trying to live in denial in a fantasy world before dying like a bitch at the hands of a nobody. The fact that Picard somehow winds up looking worse than this washed-up old coot only solidifies how bad a movie this was.

It's weird because the TV series never paid homage to the TOS characters who showed up. McCoy doesn't really count since he was a throwaway cameo, but Scotty came out looking like Geordi's equal rather than his superior and Spock was actually put in his place by Picard in a way that Kirk never, ever would have been able to do. They respected the characters, but they didn't worship them the way Generations did.

Picard sits around cring and living a bizare Victorian fantasy and needs help to punch an old man.

Kirk's ultimate fantasy is to ruggedly chop wood up in the mountains.
Right, this right here illustrates what I was saying before. Kirk wants to live his life as a rugged pioneer, while Picard wants to build a happy, orderly family for himself (and what was Picard in the series if not a strict father to his crew?) Kirk needs to constantly be running away from responsibility (beyond the wellbeing of himself and his crew) and civilization to live the life he wants. But Picard could be happy anywhere as long as he's surrounded by the people he cares about, and he loves responsibility and administrative duties.

Yeah, she might have improved if she'd stayed on the show as the other weak links did, but she really doesn't have the clout to carry Lead Villain status. All her reveal does is drag down the pace of Redemption 2 as the plot has to stop for ten minutes so she can be explained. And then Picard just goes "Well, it doesn't matter" and it never gets mentioned again. Ten minutes later Worf sees her on TV and doesn't even react!
I did enjoy seeing her utterly shut down by Picard, Data and Spock, though. She deserved it for being phenomenally stupid.

I suppose if they'd just kept him That Bloke (and the Khan reveal is one of the weak areas of the film because it doesn't really explain who he is, the natural reaction to "I AM KHAN!" is "Err, great") people would just moan that having a super strong villain was just a Khan ripoff regardless of any other differences.
Eh. Nearly every alien on Star Trek is super-strong. Just make him part Vulcan or Klingon and call it a day.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-02, 02:41 PM
And it's not only the patients who would be uncomfortable. Deanna must have had super thick skin to not be bothered by all the patients ogling her while she was trying to work. Though I suppose she'd have to be used to it, considering Betazoid culture in general and her own mother's behaviour.

Well we do get a good look at most of that skin.

I suppose the idea is humans are now evolved beyond having a perv... Well except for Riker. And Worf that time he oggled Vash. And Robin Leffler when she was checking out Wesley. And that woman ensign in Encounter at Farpoint who is really keen to show Riker how to use her interface...

The First Contact-style uniforms are one of the few Trek costume styles that I actually like, to be honest. The TOS ones just look like casual wear and the early TNG skin-tight stuff were just awkward. The late TNG stuff looked good but were a bit too stiff and formal (Geordi looks ridiculous crawling through the Jefferies Tubes in the things), and you could say the same for the gorgeous-but-impractical red outfits from the later TOS films. The early DS9/Voyager uniforms had potential as futuristic work-overalls, but they were cut weird and didn't wind up looking all that practical -- I think the Enterprise uniforms finally managed to pull off the look they were going for with these.

I suppose you could argue the FC outfits are a bit dark considering Trek's general reputation for colour, but yeah, I do like them.

Of course, in the perfectly controlled environment of a spaceship a simple jumpsuit is probably all you'd need (though Star Fleet have a real problem with appropriate clothing for different missions and environments, how many time across all the shows do characters go on stealth missions in their brightly coloured costumes?).

It's odd actually how the TOS uniforms really work despite, as you say, being far too fancy for day to day wear. They just look right somehow.


(I honestly don't remember what the TMP uniforms even look like.)

They give you a nice idea of what Stephen Collins penis looks like.



I never really noticed that Ro and Crusher weren't wearing the looser-cut outfits until this last watch-through, but Shelby's really bothered me. I think I just noticed it because she wasn't as...statuesque as most of the recurring female cast.

I know the actress felt a lot of stress about fitting into that outfit again after the summer break.

Shelby was fantastic, how the hell did we get Laxwana every year but not one return appearance from her?

I never really noticed Ro as a kid, but when going through the show on Blu Ray... yeah, Michelle Forbes wore it well.

I'm just a disgusting pervert after all.


That probably would have been the way to go after Generations, I agree. I don't think it would have even changed the plot of the following movies all that much. It would have been a tad more difficult to get Picard involved in First Contact if he wasn't captain of his own ship, but Insurrection and Nemesis both start off with diplomatic missions that a flag officer would plausibly be assigned to.

The Enterprise being on a diplomatic mission in Nemesis would have been a sensible way to use Worf as well, have Shebangs specifically request the Ambassador handle the negotiations knowing it'll be Picard that brings him (in the final film his entire plan would have been buggered if they'd sent any other ship).

Oh, and I just remembered another reason why Insurrection was hopelessly stupid -- they spent all that time dicking around on a backwards nothing planet while the Federation was embroiled in a desperate war for its own survival against the Dominion. You couldn't even handwave it as "no, no, it's being released in the same year as season 6/7 of DS9 but it's actually set a few years before" because they actively call it out. I mean, hell, the Breen are bombing San Francisco and the Jem'hadar are rampaging across Betazed. Don't you guys have better things to do?

I can see why they did Insurrection as a stand alone film. Even allowing for the fact that DS9 was a lot less popular than TNG so even a majority of the American audience wouldn't know about the Dominion War, in pre-streaming days a film dependent on international box office couldn't really tie into the plot of a series that was being broadcast at different rates all over the world. I think when it came out Sky was roughly up to speed with DS9 (maybe a few weeks behind?), but for those of us dependent on BBC2 the film would have been our first introduction to the Dominion War. Doing a standalone made more sense in terms of audiences.

Of course, in retrospect, knowing that (though it wasn't a disaster, it just did OK and a lot down on FC) it was the beginning of the end they might as well have gone all out on a full on fanwank Dominion War film. Though based on Nemesis Picard would have stormed Cardassia by himself and head butted the female changling to death.

Or you know, at least mention Worf's been having a bad time of it.

IIRC Michael Piller did ask Behr about doing some sort of crossover with the War in DS9, but was told it would probably be over by the time the film came out. Considering how pissed he was about the treatment of the Defiant in FC I wouldn't be surprised in Behr just lied so he could carry on just doing his own thing.



I did enjoy seeing her utterly shut down by Picard, Data and Spock, though. She deserved it for being phenomenally stupid.

The "Have you considered another career?" line is the best bit of the two parter.

There are fans who, even now, say Selar should have been the lead villain in Nemesis. Which is akin to those G1ers who insist what's really wrong with the Bay films is they're not a direct remake of the '86 movie. I mean, whatever problems Nemesis has, Tom Hardy's performance isn't one of them and the idea that having Lois and Clark semi-regular Crosby as the main baddy rather than someone who has gone on to be a well liked big Hollywood star is silly.


Eh. Nearly every alien on Star Trek is super-strong. Just make him part Vulcan or Klingon and call it a day.

Nero was a Romulan and everyone still called him a cheap Khan knock off.

Warcry
2015-10-07, 05:51 PM
I suppose the idea is humans are now evolved beyond having a perv... Well except for Riker. And Worf that time he oggled Vash. And Robin Leffler when she was checking out Wesley. And that woman ensign in Encounter at Farpoint who is really keen to show Riker how to use her interface...
Actually, given the way early TNG seemed to be mainly about Roddenberry wish-fulfillment, he probably intended that people had "evolved" beyond being bothered when he people ogled them rather than the reverse.

I suppose you could argue the FC outfits are a bit dark considering Trek's general reputation for colour, but yeah, I do like them.
A bit dark, for sure. But they've got a good mix of function, formality and looks that nothing else from the franchise can really match.

Of course, in the perfectly controlled environment of a spaceship a simple jumpsuit is probably all you'd need (though Star Fleet have a real problem with appropriate clothing for different missions and environments, how many time across all the shows do characters go on stealth missions in their brightly coloured costumes?).
Occasionally they'd introduce other mission-specialty uniforms, like the black combat jumpsuits from late DS9 or the engineering jumpsuits in TNG, but all that ever did was make the 95% of missions where they went out in their fancy uniforms stand out all the more.

Shelby was fantastic, how the hell did we get Laxwana every year but not one return appearance from her?
Barrett being married to Roddenberry probably helped. I mean, she was probably on-set every week trying to keep him from boning the extras anyway, in the early years...

Shelby was fantastic, though. I've always wondered was how the later seasons of TNG would have turned out in an alternate universe where Patrick Stewart didn't manage to hash out a new contract and Picard was killed off for real. The Enterprise would have been a very different place with Captain Riker and Commander Shelby as the leads...

I can see why they did Insurrection as a stand alone film. Even allowing for the fact that DS9 was a lot less popular than TNG so even a majority of the American audience wouldn't know about the Dominion War, in pre-streaming days a film dependent on international box office couldn't really tie into the plot of a series that was being broadcast at different rates all over the world. I think when it came out Sky was roughly up to speed with DS9 (maybe a few weeks behind?), but for those of us dependent on BBC2 the film would have been our first introduction to the Dominion War. Doing a standalone made more sense in terms of audiences.
But they tossed in just enough references to the war to make it feel weird. If Crazy Admiral #872 doesn't go on about how the Federation needs to screw over the Space Elves because it'd help with the war effort (...how, exactly?) or talk about how the Son'a are vital wartime allies, it would be easy to assume that it was set before or after the war (which only lasted, what, two years?) Especially now that enough time has passed that most people don't remember it was released during the last couple years of DS9. But by explicitly setting it during the war, the movie lives in this weird corner where dicking around spying on a handful of hippies and trying to steal their pixie dust is somehow more important than the conflict that sees core Federation members occupied and bombarded from orbit with regularity.

Or you know, at least mention Worf's been having a bad time of it.
This really stuck out too. Like...his wife just died a few months ago and nobody even offers him condolences. Though none of the Enterprise crew were invited to the wedding, so I suppose they might still be a bit pissy over that...

IIRC Michael Piller did ask Behr about doing some sort of crossover with the War in DS9, but was told it would probably be over by the time the film came out. Considering how pissed he was about the treatment of the Defiant in FC I wouldn't be surprised in Behr just lied so he could carry on just doing his own thing.
Can't say that I'd blame him, honestly.

Speaking of the Defiant and First Contact, am I the only one who'll forever be disappointed that they didn't use that as an excuse to rope O'Brien into a TNG movie? I know he wasn't main cast, but he was just as important to the really good middle seasons as Crusher or Geordi. And, hell, they managed to fit Barclay in... It was also sort of a shame that Guinan never did anything after Generations, though the Enterprise-E didn't really seem to have a civilian complement on it the way the old Galaxy-class ship did. But how much more meaning would that Ahab speech have carried if it came from Picard's old friend instead of some random chick that they picked up the night before?

And on a similar note, I know that Forbes turned down a starring role on DS9 because she didn't want to commit to a series for seven years, but I really wish they'd been able to bring Ro in for a guest shot every once in a while. She and Kira would have gotten along like a house on fire.

The "Have you considered another career?" line is the best bit of the two parter.
Deadpan Spock at his finest.

There are fans who, even now, say Selar should have been the lead villain in Nemesis. Which is akin to those G1ers who insist what's really wrong with the Bay films is they're not a direct remake of the '86 movie. I mean, whatever problems Nemesis has, Tom Hardy's performance isn't one of them and the idea that having Lois and Clark semi-regular Crosby as the main baddy rather than someone who has gone on to be a well liked big Hollywood star is silly.
I wouldn't have been upset to see Sela appear in the film, but certainly not as the lead. She just wasn't good enough to carry it off. Swapping her in instead of Donatra, on the other hand, would have been cool.

Nero was a Romulan and everyone still called him a cheap Khan knock off.
Which he wasn't, not even a little. If anything, he felt like a character that wandered out of 24...

Denyer
2015-10-07, 06:21 PM
With all the mentions of Shelby, Selar, Lefler, etc. have either of you read the New Frontier books?

Warcry
2015-10-07, 06:37 PM
I have! I loved the first...oh, half of them, I'd say. But after he blew up Excalibur and split up the crew I found that the magic was gone, and I just got less and less interested with each ensuing time-skip.

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-10-07, 10:56 PM
IIRC Guinan was in Star Trek: Nemesis although it might have been in a deleted scene at the wedding where someone (it might have been Wesley Crusher) asked her if she had any thoughts on re-marrying and she makes a crack "No. the 20th time was enough for me" or something to that effect. There was also a deleted scene at the end (I think) where Dr. Crusher was the new head of Starfleet Medical (I think there might have been more references to this but it was also deleted for time) to make room for the new Captain's chair with a seat belt gag.

I think if a lot of the deleted scenes (that aren't just pure fan wanks) were added back in to Nemesis it actually make more sense continuity wise.

Why Worf was there was never explained.
I've always thought the best way to explain why Worf is there is that he should've been a guest at wedding (which would make the most sense) when they get the mission they can't take him back to the Klingon Empire because it's in the opposite direction and, so he comes along for the ride (if anything else they should have added a scene where tells Picard that he contacted the Empire and now he's there officially to make sure the Klingon Empire isn't going to be threaten by the problems on Romulus) and also because he's a badass Klingon Warrior what is going to do, sit on his ass and let Picard have all the fun?

Some of Nemesis problems were an over-packed script, a director known for action films, poor editing decisions (by a director who was an editor no less) to make it action-packed and that meant quick pacing. The cost of that quick pacing was the lost of most of the movie's story and thematic elements. The major theme was supposed to be the end of a family, but other than Picard, Data, Riker, and Troi none of the other characters in the cast get much to do if anything other than spout the usual Star Trek technobabble.

I still think Star Trek: Nemesis is much better than the 2 directed by JJ Abrams which are 100% crap.

Tetsuro
2015-10-08, 01:33 AM
I still think Star Trek: Nemesis is much better than the 2 directed by JJ Abrams which are 100% crap.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. They're all shit, but Nemesis also happens to be the finale of the TNG era in general.

Which is kinda like if B.O.T. had been the last Transformers episode ever :sick:

inflatable dalek
2015-10-08, 07:45 AM
Actually, given the way early TNG seemed to be mainly about Roddenberry wish-fulfillment, he probably intended that people had "evolved" beyond being bothered when he people ogled them rather than the reverse.

"Nice planet"

Have you seen Chaos on the Bridge? I don't think it covers much you won't know, but it's nice to have a concise summary of all the weird shit and involves a couple of people not on the blu ray features (including Maurice Hurley, though it doesn't really touch on his sexual harassment of McFadden unsurprisingly), and Shatner actually makes a good host, mostly just sitting back and letting the people talk, only really mucking about with Frakes and Ira Steven Behr.

It's interesting that, in order to have at least some balance, they made sure to get someone in who thinks Roddenberry's ideas for TNG were good, but the best they can manage is Brannon Braga who didn't work on season 1.


Occasionally they'd introduce other mission-specialty uniforms, like the black combat jumpsuits from late DS9 or the engineering jumpsuits in TNG, but all that ever did was make the 95% of missions where they went out in their fancy uniforms stand out all the more.

It's a shame the TMP uniforms were (understandably though as no one checked if they could actually be worn without strangling the actor. As the initial TNG uniforms has the same problem and both were the last overseen by Roddenberry I think he must have had some ideas about future fabrics that just didn't work when made with contemporary materials) canned. They actually had a decent costume budget on that one so there's a lot of variety for different purposes, as there is in real navies of course.

The first film costumes, other than the one that lets you see Decker's unit, actually look a lot better now than they did ten years ago, they've come back around again in terms of style. Kirk especially looks really snazzy in all his outfits, it's unsurprising the admiral's uniform he has on when we first see him has just straight up been reused in the new films.


Barrett being married to Roddenberry probably helped. I mean, she was probably on-set every week trying to keep him from boning the extras anyway, in the early years...

Next you'll be saying there was a good reason she became such good mates with Marina!

It's sad really, the two main (and I'd say Chapple counts as main cast for the series, she's only really overlooked now because the films dropped her as soon as they dropped Roddenberry) female cast-members on TOS are both women he had affairs with.

Shelby was fantastic, though. I've always wondered was how the later seasons of TNG would have turned out in an alternate universe where Patrick Stewart didn't manage to hash out a new contract and Picard was killed off for real. The Enterprise would have been a very different place with Captain Riker and Commander Shelby as the leads...

I suspect they'd have just promoted Data to first officer, considering he would have been the most popular character left on the show by a big margin, not increasing his role wouldn't have been very likely. Especially as the female characters tend to get poor treatment on TNG anyway.

What I like about Shelby is that there's a nice balance there between her being absolutely right (Riker has not only stagnated, his stubbornness to take the next step is actually hurting the careers of those below him) and her being a bit of a dick (she's so myopic about promotion she seems more worried about that than being turned into a borg). There was a lot of potential there.


But they tossed in just enough references to the war to make it feel weird. If Crazy Admiral #872 doesn't go on about how the Federation needs to screw over the Space Elves because it'd help with the war effort (...how, exactly?) or talk about how the Son'a are vital wartime allies, it would be easy to assume that it was set before or after the war (which only lasted, what, two years?) Especially now that enough time has passed that most people don't remember it was released during the last couple years of DS9. But by explicitly setting it during the war, the movie lives in this weird corner where dicking around spying on a handful of hippies and trying to steal their pixie dust is somehow more important than the conflict that sees core Federation members occupied and bombarded from orbit with regularity.

Though I've a feeling it's the only Trek film without a stardate (no Captain's log), so we can just imagine it's set earlier.


This really stuck out too. Like...his wife just died a few months ago and nobody even offers him condolences. Though none of the Enterprise crew were invited to the wedding, so I suppose they might still be a bit pissy over that...

Yeah, at least a nod might have been nice, and given Worf something actually related to his character rather than half arsed comedy. I remember interviews Dorn did at the time to promote the film where he was... decidedly unimpressed. Understandably considering that by that time Worf had already been in more Star Trek than anyone else, which you'd think would mean his character would actually be treated with respect by the film. Or even than his character would be in the film (hey, remember the time Worf refused to disobey Kira's order in Waltz even though it meant abandoning the search for Sisko, presumably leaving him for dead? How how he basically told Bashir to STFU for saying some things are more important than orders? Is this the guy who'd defy Star Fleet?).



Speaking of the Defiant and First Contact, am I the only one who'll forever be disappointed that they didn't use that as an excuse to rope O'Brien into a TNG movie? I know he wasn't main cast, but he was just as important to the really good middle seasons as Crusher or Geordi. And, hell, they managed to fit Barclay in... It was also sort of a shame that Guinan never did anything after Generations, though the Enterprise-E didn't really seem to have a civilian complement on it the way the old Galaxy-class ship did. But how much more meaning would that Ahab speech have carried if it came from Picard's old friend instead of some random chick that they picked up the night before?

Meany would have been great, though considering both that it was shot between seasons and that he's the only one out of the lot of them at that time with a film career (and apart from Stewart, still the only one) he was almost certainly shooting a mid-budget Irish film at the time.

Of course, it is silly that normally the Defiant can't go anywhere without taking the entire senior crew with it yet Worf is the only one here, despite Sisko being mega pissed with the Borg.

The two theories I've heard on this I really like are:

1: The Borg waited until Sisko was in the Badlands with Eddington as they know the battle would last about five minutes with him around ("RESISTANCE IS FUTILE...he's gone right?").

2: Worf was actually running away from Keiko as he was terrified of having to deliver another baby and just stumbled across the Borg by accident.

Mind, if O'Brien had been aboard he'd probably have done to Geordi what the EMH does to Crusher and completely steal their part of the film from them.

Barclay was actually in the script for Insurrection at one point (seemingly hanging around the bridge with Riker during the nebula battle) before an exec said maybe it would be nice if Geordi had some lines in the movie.

If it's still out there the PDF of Piller's unpublished book about the writing of Insurrection is well worth tracking down. It completely kills a lot of fan myths about the film, in particular that the film was ruined by studio interference and by Stewart and Spiner's demands.

In fact, every single suggestion made by these people was either to the beterment of the film or should have been followed. The suits worked out the Baku dilemma didn't work, Spiner was unhappy with the way Data was written feeling it regressed the character badly, Stewart never rejected the original "Heart of Darkness" script out of hand (Berman rejected it because he thought Stewart would say no, which isn't the same thing and the actor never saw it).

They simply weren't listened too enough, probably as a result of the success of First Contact giving Berman the clout to push things through his way.

Seriously, how often can you say about a failed movie "They should have listened to the executives more"? It's actually quite sad at the end, Piller fights so hard against these outside influences to make the script he wants... and the reaction from the public is a general shoulder shrug and overall agreement with the suggestions he fought against. It's a great shame the career of a man who did so much to save TNG ended with him delivering a blow to the kneecaps from which their films never quite recovered.

And on a similar note, I know that Forbes turned down a starring role on DS9 because she didn't want to commit to a series for seven years, but I really wish they'd been able to bring Ro in for a guest shot every once in a while. She and Kira would have gotten along like a house on fire.

I guess she pretty much burnt her bridges with first the reluctance to keep coming back and then turning down the DS9 gig. Shame, Forbes is never less than fantastic. As well as BSG her episode of the New Outer Limits is well worth tracking down, it's one of the good ones and she's fantastic in it.


Deadpan Spock at his finest.

Data man! Data!


I wouldn't have been upset to see Sela appear in the film, but certainly not as the lead. She just wasn't good enough to carry it off. Swapping her in instead of Donatra, on the other hand, would have been cool.

Yeah, giving her a small role (the Romulan Captain who does the Han Solo and turns up to save the day in the middle of the battle but then winds up being a shit Han Solo because her ship is taken out almost immediately?), just to get the entire opening credits cast in there in some capacity.


Which he wasn't, not even a little. If anything, he felt like a character that wandered out of 24...

Well, other than him having a planet destroying super weapon and being out for revenge for both the death of his wife and the devastating effect an exploding planet had on his life.

Mind, he's also worryingly like the villain from Nemesis. But he was criticised for being a poor man's Khan as well.


EDIT:

Oh, and on New Frontier, I read the initial mini-series and the next two full length books, but lost track of it after that and it looks a rather hard series to just jump into.

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-10-08, 08:51 AM
Hello, me again. :wave:

An actual on topic (almost) post now though. Dalek (and anyone else who has an interest in both Who and Trek) - Have you heard about / seen the possible Star Trek easter eggs in the latest Doctor Who story? The Who rumour forums are ablaze with thoughts, some of which are coherent.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-08, 08:58 AM
I think the nods (1701 as door signage also does double duty as a BSG reference) are likely down to the designer being a fan more than any great plan.

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-10-08, 03:00 PM
I wouldn't be so sure about that. They're all shit, but Nemesis also happens to be the finale of the TNG era in general.

Which is kinda like if B.O.T. had been the last Transformers episode ever :sick:

Honestly I haven't seen anything from Abrams as a director that wasn't complete and total shit. M:I 3 was boring. Star Trek looked like a bad Micheal Bay wanna be directed it, and Into Darkness was stupid beyond words.

IMHO he sucks as a director. I would rather watch the worst Micheal Bay or Zack Snyder's films than any Abrams' crap.

Tetsuro
2015-10-08, 03:30 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting the Abrams Trek movies are good - I just don't think Nemesis is any better. Judging from the comments of Sirtis and Frakes, it's pretty clear the director of that film didn't really seem to care either.

What really grates me is that Star Trek has always (or at least usually) been about big ideas, something even Star Trek V managed to deliver - it's when the fans of the Abrams movies try to defend it by saying it has a message too, but their idea of a "message" is just the usual shallow cliché about friendship, an idea that is neither big or original anymore. In comparison, Star Trek III also dealt with that same message and did it far better - and you might as well argue that Commando is a "deep" film because it values the importance of father/daughter relationships.

Warcry
2015-10-09, 06:13 AM
IIRC Guinan was in Star Trek: Nemesis although it might have been in a deleted scene at the wedding where someone (it might have been Wesley Crusher) asked her if she had any thoughts on re-marrying and she makes a crack "No. the 20th time was enough for me" or something to that effect.
I'm 90% that her and Wesley's lines all wound up deleted. It's a shame really...with it being the last outing of the TNG era, if it was going to suck anyway they really needed to just say "screw it", go full fanwank mode and cram in every single familiar face that they could. Hell, throw Guinan in as bartender again and have Wesley fly the ship. They didn't bother to explain why Worf was in uniform again, so it's not like those things would have been any more ridiculous.

I think if a lot of the deleted scenes (that aren't just pure fan wanks) were added back in to Nemesis it actually make more sense continuity wise.
The one time that I watched the deleted scenes, I remembered thinking how much better they were than anything that actually made it into the finished film.

I've always thought the best way to explain why Worf is there is that he should've been a guest at wedding (which would make the most sense)
Wait, you mean he wasn't? I always assumed he was because absolutely nothing else makes any sense at all.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. They're all shit, but Nemesis also happens to be the finale of the TNG era in general.

Which is kinda like if B.O.T. had been the last Transformers episode ever :sick:
Fair point. If Nemesis had been the fourth TNG movie out of six I don't think people would hate on it nearly as much. But as the grand finale for the crew that we all grew up with, it's pretty galling.

Have you seen Chaos on the Bridge? I don't think it covers much you won't know, but it's nice to have a concise summary of all the weird shit and involves a couple of people not on the blu ray features (including Maurice Hurley, though it doesn't really touch on his sexual harassment of McFadden unsurprisingly), and Shatner actually makes a good host, mostly just sitting back and letting the people talk, only really mucking about with Frakes and Ira Steven Behr.
I've never heard of it, actually, but it sounds super interesting. I'll have to track it down!

It's interesting that, in order to have at least some balance, they made sure to get someone in who thinks Roddenberry's ideas for TNG were good, but the best they can manage is Brannon Braga who didn't work on season 1.
I actually do think at least some of Roddenberry's ideas were good. It's his execution that I have a problem with. By the time TNG rolled around he was a crazy old man who wasn't anywhere near as much of a visionary filmmaker as everyone had told him he was for the previous couple decades. He was much like George Lucas, really...lots and lots of good ideas, but clearly in need of a strong moderating influence that could pull his head out of his ass once in a while.

The biggest problem with the utopian Federation that he'd envisioned was that it was boring if you took it at face value, and he was too idealistic to score points by subverting it like late TNG and DS9 did. The concept really took off once the idea that even paradise wasn't perfect took hold. Seeing Picard or Sisko grapple with hard decisions and figure out how to uphold their morals and save the day is way more interesting than Picard smugly monologuing to aliens about how inferior they were until they got bored and went home.

The first film costumes, other than the one that lets you see Decker's unit, actually look a lot better now than they did ten years ago, they've come back around again in terms of style. Kirk especially looks really snazzy in all his outfits, it's unsurprising the admiral's uniform he has on when we first see him has just straight up been reused in the new films.
After Googling, I'm going to have to disagree on that. Kirk's admiral's outfit does look pretty cool but everyone else looks like they're in pajamas. I do like the variety on display but when everything is awful that's only a small point in its favour.

I think they'd look immeasurably better with the small addition of a dark belt, though, so it's not a total loss.

It's sad really, the two main (and I'd say Chapple counts as main cast for the series, she's only really overlooked now because the films dropped her as soon as they dropped Roddenberry) female cast-members on TOS are both women he had affairs with.
And then the third most prominent female character was axed after her actress was sexually assaulted by one of the show's execs. Sadly not a surprise, since the man in charge set the tone by treating his actresses as sex objects that only existed for his own pleasure (and shit, for all we know he could have been the guy who did it...). Not really surprising that the same attitude was able to flourish during the first season of TNG either.

I had no idea Christine Chapel was in as many episodes of the show as Chekov. Yeah, hard to disagree that she was a regular when she was in almost half of the show. I don't think she's forgotten just because she was dropped from the films, though. I think it's mostly because Majel has had far more memorable roles in the TNG-era stuff, both as Lwaxana and the ship's computer. Chapel was there a lot but rarely actually did anything (a description that covers most of the original series crew beyond the big three and Scotty).

What really shocked me, though, is that Mr. Leslie was in more episodes than Chekov or Sulu, and only six fewer than Scotty.

I suspect they'd have just promoted Data to first officer, considering he would have been the most popular character left on the show by a big margin, not increasing his role wouldn't have been very likely. Especially as the female characters tend to get poor treatment on TNG anyway.
That wouldn't have been a terrible choice either, since Data in a command position is always interesting. Though honestly, if Shelby wasn't the backup plan then I'm inclined to wonder just what she was there for to begin with.

To be honest, as much as I love The Best of Both Worlds (and I love it a lot -- it might just be my favourite Trek story ever, especially if you include Family as a coda) the ending is a bit disappointing for me because it basically kills Riker as a character. I actually think that the title refers to him -- he wanted to be captain but he also wanted to stay with the Enterprise "family", and at the start he's struggling to decide between the two. And then Picard is gone so he gets to have both, and he's left to deal with the guilt of having it all at the cost of another man's life. It's a great character piece for him and he grows so much over the course of those two episodes. But then we need to restore the status quo for the next episode, so they back down from the development that he experienced here and for the next four seasons there's literally nowhere to go with the character. It's just one of those things that I think they would have been able to handle much better in today's TV environment.

To your other point, I've honestly never been able to figure out why Data was so popular. The character is written so inconsistently. Like how he "can't feel any emotions" in spite of curiosity and the desire for self-improvement being the absolute core of the character. I'd be fine with that if there was some room left for us to say "of course he can, he's just so unaware of himself that he doesn't realize" but the script treats it like a factual truth even though we've seen so many times that it's clearly not. I mean, the guy has friends, a desire for self-preservation and self-determination, an insatiable desire to learn, a deep interest in how others' minds work -- none of those things would be true if there wasn't emotion behind them. But yet the show keeps telling us that, no, he's got no feelings just because he doesn't shout at people or get all mushy with members of the opposite sex (except that one time...) The whole thing is a huge middle finger to the core Trek idea that we should respect people's differences...he's clearly got emotions, but they just don't count because they're not the same as ours. As if Data is broken because he's different and he won't be right until what makes him unique is gone and replaced with a cookie-cutter human. And then they don't even have the guts to stick to their guns about that, and after he gains a lot of humanity over the first two films they immediately roll it back for the last two with no explanation given.

Brent Spiner is fantastic and he does a great job with whatever he's given, but what he's given is crap far too often. Its a credit to him really, with a lesser actor in that role Data would have been completely intolerable instead of just likeable-but-disappointing.

On the other hand I love Worf, and the script shits on him nearly as much. So who am I to talk?

What I like about Shelby is that there's a nice balance there between her being absolutely right (Riker has not only stagnated, his stubbornness to take the next step is actually hurting the careers of those below him) and her being a bit of a dick (she's so myopic about promotion she seems more worried about that than being turned into a borg). There was a lot of potential there.
Yep, that's a great summation of what's so great about her. She's easily the best part of New Frontier for those same reasons, constantly struggling to balance her ambitions against what's right and never quite sure if she's second-guessing her captain because he's an insane savage or because she just wants that fourth pip on her collar.

But for the two episodes that she was on-screen, she had more nuance to her than half of the TNG crew got over seven seasons and four movies.

Yeah, at least a nod might have been nice, and given Worf something actually related to his character rather than half arsed comedy. I remember interviews Dorn did at the time to promote the film where he was... decidedly unimpressed. Understandably considering that by that time Worf had already been in more Star Trek than anyone else, which you'd think would mean his character would actually be treated with respect by the film. Or even than his character would be in the film (hey, remember the time Worf refused to disobey Kira's order in Waltz even though it meant abandoning the search for Sisko, presumably leaving him for dead? How how he basically told Bashir to STFU for saying some things are more important than orders? Is this the guy who'd defy Star Fleet?).
I don't mind the idea of Worf defying Starfleet in the right situations. He was willing to abandon Sisko because it was the honourable thing to do. They were in the middle of a war zone, other lives were at stake and Sisko would have never wanted his rescue to come at the cost of a convoy of troops. In a different situation, when the ship's main mission was something unimportant, he probably would have agreed with Bashir.

Disobeying orders to save the Baku from obliteration is completely different, and honestly it's probably the sort of thing that he would have argued for on TNG only for Picard to shoot him down because of the Prime Directive.

Using him for bad jokes, on the other hand, was pretty disrespectful to the character and actor. By that point he'd been on ten seasons of TV and two movies, and he deserved a lot more respect than that.

Meany would have been great, though considering both that it was shot between seasons and that he's the only one out of the lot of them at that time with a film career (and apart from Stewart, still the only one) he was almost certainly shooting a mid-budget Irish film at the time.
A fat Hollywood payday probably would have lured him away, though.

Of course, it is silly that normally the Defiant can't go anywhere without taking the entire senior crew with it yet Worf is the only one here, despite Sisko being mega pissed with the Borg.
I kinda figure that Sisko got the same treatment as Picard, the whole "no, you stay away, you're too emotionally invested for us to trust you" deal. Though that doesn't explain where O'Brien, Dax, Bashir or Kira are.

Mind, if O'Brien had been aboard he'd probably have done to Geordi what the EMH does to Crusher and completely steal their part of the film from them.
Not necessarily. He might have gotten tossed in with Picard's crew aboard-ship rather than the group on the surface. I'm not entirely sure what he could have done, but even if he just replaced the random security goon (who it turns out actually had a name, one Lt. Daniels) it would have been nice to see him.

Seriously, how often can you say about a failed movie "They should have listened to the executives more"?
That's pretty close to a kiss of death. If the suits have better ideas than the creative types, the creatives should probably retire.

I guess she pretty much burnt her bridges with first the reluctance to keep coming back and then turning down the DS9 gig. Shame, Forbes is never less than fantastic. As well as BSG her episode of the New Outer Limits is well worth tracking down, it's one of the good ones and she's fantastic in it.
Totally agreed. I've loved her in everything I've seen her in, no matter how big or small the role. Even though she was only in it for a few episodes, Forbes' Admiral Cain is easily one of my favourite parts of the new BSG.

(And since you were perving on her earlier, I feel obliged to point out that the lady aged like a fine wine...)

Data man! Data!
Eh. Basically the same character, right? :glance:

Mind, he's also worryingly like the villain from Nemesis. But he was criticised for being a poor man's Khan as well.
Where Shinzon is concerned, though, I'm pretty sure it was on purpose. One of the biggest problems with the movie is that it tries to riff on The Wrath of Khan far, far too much.

Oh, and on New Frontier, I read the initial mini-series and the next two full length books, but lost track of it after that and it looks a rather hard series to just jump into.
Others might disagree, but I'd say you've already read the best parts of it.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-10-09, 08:55 AM
Okay, this was all good and funny in the first place, but I think the joke's run its course.

TOPIC LOCKED.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-09, 01:45 PM
Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting the Abrams Trek movies are good - I just don't think Nemesis is any better. Judging from the comments of Sirtis and Frakes, it's pretty clear the director of that film didn't really seem to care either.

Mind, I think Frakes is directly responsible for Insurrection being so bad. The script is stupid, but so is the script for First Contact (seriously, how many Enterprise crewmembers are assimilated because Data decides to have a blow job rather than smash the poorly designed CANISTERS OF DEATH the second he's first off the table?), it's his grab you by the balls and stare you in the eye and dare you to call it stupid direction that makes it all work.

It's clear from his commentary on Insurrection though he finds the whole moral point the film is trying to make really dumb. He even says when Baku Bloke sets his pacifist stall out that it's "Typical Piller crap". If the director, who sets so much of the tone and feel of the film, doesn't think the story is any good it's no wonder the film winds up no good.

Of course, the ideal would be to have a great script and great direction, but the later can cover a multitude of sins.

What really grates me is that Star Trek has always (or at least usually) been about big ideas, something even Star Trek V managed to deliver - it's when the fans of the Abrams movies try to defend it by saying it has a message too, but their idea of a "message" is just the usual shallow cliché about friendship, an idea that is neither big or original anymore. In comparison, Star Trek III also dealt with that same message and did it far better - and you might as well argue that Commando is a "deep" film because it values the importance of father/daughter relationships.

So what would you say is the big idea/message behind The Voyage Home? Don't hunt animals to extinction? That's pretty basic, even whale hunters don't want them wiped out as that would destroy their jobs.

Or is it "Use exact change"?

Certainly I'd say the two most recent films are as thematically deep as most of their predecessors, especially Into Darkness which is very concerned with contempoary American politics. Not subtle to be sure, but neither is "The Wall comes down IN SPACE!".

The films don't really do that sort of thing very well anyway, TV Trek can take an idea and knock it about for an hour to produce something like Darnok or In The Pale Moonlight because it's part of a longer season.

The films have to try and service all the characters and tell a big self contained plot all within two hours. Themes tend to be a bit surface level. Which is why The Motion Picture is so annoying, it thinks it has this great big 2001 style revelation, but it basically boils down to the sort of thing the series did so often it should really be a post it note.

I think Khan actually does the layers thing better than any of them. Mainly because it doesn't go for the easy answers, it looks at the effect of ageing on a hero but doesn't come up with the stock "You're never too old for this shit" conclusion. Kirk does make mistakes, and they get people killed. He has to accept he's older and slower and that's no bad thing in and of itself because he also has experience.

Shame the following two films are basically about restoring the status quo of the series and going "No, seriously, Kirk is awesome!".

I'm 90% that her and Wesley's lines all wound up deleted. It's a shame really...with it being the last outing of the TNG era, if it was going to suck anyway they really needed to just say "screw it", go full fanwank mode and cram in every single familiar face that they could. Hell, throw Guinan in as bartender again and have Wesley fly the ship. They didn't bother to explain why Worf was in uniform again, so it's not like those things would have been any more ridiculous.

Guinan's lines are still in the film. I think she might actually have more dialogue than Geordi.

Wesley being back in Star Fleet is bonkers, but hey, so is Worf (IIRC there was a "Being an ambassador did not agree with me" line that was cut, though I don't think it's been on any of the home media extras. There's supposed to be like an hour of deleted scenes, about half of which have been released). Picard must have shared Kirk's "Don't retire" advice about.

In retrospect it's amazing Will Wheaton even showed up for a cameo, he's been very clear in interviews recently he deeply dislikes the way Rick Berman treated him on the show and still bears a grudge there.

The one time that I watched the deleted scenes, I remembered thinking how much better they were than anything that actually made it into the finished film.

Amussingly the one where he and Data share a drink is introduced on the DVD by Patrick Stewart from an interview from before the final edit had been made where he goes on about how it's a key scene to the film!

Mind, I'd have cut that one myself, it's all basic "Explain this human ritual to me" Data 101 stuff that after 30 odd years he shouldn't really need explaining.



Fair point. If Nemesis had been the fourth TNG movie out of six I don't think people would hate on it nearly as much. But as the grand finale for the crew that we all grew up with, it's pretty galling.

It's worse than that: it's the grand final to all of the original Star Trek timeline (though if you're watching in production order you've still got two years of Enterprise afterwards. This is not a good thing), indeed, chronologically it's still the final ever Star Trek story (even if various time travelers the different crews run into--including of course Spock Prime--post date it). Suck on them balls.

The staggering thing about Baird as a director is even Paramount didn't think he was any good at it. They desperately wanted him to do the job he's actually talented at and perform an emergency edit on (IIRC) Mission Impossible 2 and Tomb Raider, the deal he struck was to get to direct a film afterwards. They literally looked down their list of projects and put him on the one they gave they least amount of **** about (over Berman's head) as quid pro quo for getting Lara Croft's boobs to bounce in slow motion properly.



I actually do think at least some of Roddenberry's ideas were good. It's his execution that I have a problem with. By the time TNG rolled around he was a crazy old man who wasn't anywhere near as much of a visionary filmmaker as everyone had told him he was for the previous couple decades. He was much like George Lucas, really...lots and lots of good ideas, but clearly in need of a strong moderating influence that could pull his head out of his ass once in a while.

It seems a lot of the problems were down to his lawyer (who shouldn't have been rewriting scripts but was) misinterpreting a lot of what Roddenberry wanted. So "No petty character conflicts" became "No conflict between characters at all" and so on.

The biggest problem with the utopian Federation that he'd envisioned was that it was boring if you took it at face value, and he was too idealistic to score points by subverting it like late TNG and DS9 did. The concept really took off once the idea that even paradise wasn't perfect took hold. Seeing Picard or Sisko grapple with hard decisions and figure out how to uphold their morals and save the day is way more interesting than Picard smugly monologuing to aliens about how inferior they were until they got bored and went home.

When written at its worst the Federation is clearly evil, like in that episode with Worf's step brother where he's trying to save some people from an exploding planet and Picard is all "No, helping these people not die would break the Prime Directive, who knows what could happen if we interfer with the natural course of evolution on this planet and these children weren't all dead. Now let us watch the world explode!

Wait, do they have a hot milf who wants to stroke my head? No, just Sheri Palmer from 24? No go. Died planet die!".

Amusingly, considering Picard's drastically different attitude, that episode was a direct influence on Insurrection and it "Trick the villagers into thinking they're on the holodeck" plot.


After Googling, I'm going to have to disagree on that. Kirk's admiral's outfit does look pretty cool but everyone else looks like they're in pajamas. I do like the variety on display but when everything is awful that's only a small point in its favour.

I think they'd look immeasurably better with the small addition of a dark belt, though, so it's not a total loss.

The basic jumpsuits were actually dyed red and (with some extra bells and whistles stuck on them) worn by the cadets in Wrath of Khan as non speaking extras just have to put up with having their genitals crushed (note that main guest star cadet Saavik isn't wearing one).


And then the third most prominent female character was axed after her actress was sexually assaulted by one of the show's execs. Sadly not a surprise, since the man in charge set the tone by treating his actresses as sex objects that only existed for his own pleasure (and shit, for all we know he could have been the guy who did it...). Not really surprising that the same attitude was able to flourish during the first season of TNG either.

She was actually assaulted by two different people working on the show (though one was a more distant high up exec). She never named names, but apparently according to her autobiography one gave her some home made jewellery to "Apologise".

Now, guess what Roddenberry liked to make at home as one of his major hobbies?



What really shocked me, though, is that Mr. Leslie was in more episodes than Chekov or Sulu, and only six fewer than Scotty.

He'd have been there right to the end as well if his health problems hadn't forced him off the series.

Though he's called by at least one other name during the course of the series (I don't know how IMDB/Memory Alpha divy up the roles), so how many times he's Leslie and how many times he's The Other Fellow is open to debate. He could have been playing a different non-speaking character in every episode he's not called by name!


That wouldn't have been a terrible choice either, since Data in a command position is always interesting. Though honestly, if Shelby wasn't the backup plan then I'm inclined to wonder just what she was there for to begin with.

Well, famously Piller put no thought whatsoever into what would happen in Part 2 as he thought he was leaving the show. It's remarkable it works at all really (little things like how the saucer separation plan is set up in the first part are just luck rather than planning), it's shame it seems to convince them that writing the first part of a cross-season two parter without deciding on what was going to happen in the second was the way to go as none of the others are anywhere like as neat.

To be honest, as much as I love The Best of Both Worlds (and I love it a lot -- it might just be my favourite Trek story ever, especially if you include Family as a coda) the ending is a bit disappointing for me because it basically kills Riker as a character. I actually think that the title refers to him -- he wanted to be captain but he also wanted to stay with the Enterprise "family", and at the start he's struggling to decide between the two. And then Picard is gone so he gets to have both, and he's left to deal with the guilt of having it all at the cost of another man's life. It's a great character piece for him and he grows so much over the course of those two episodes. But then we need to restore the status quo for the next episode, so they back down from the development that he experienced here and for the next four seasons there's literally nowhere to go with the character. It's just one of those things that I think they would have been able to handle much better in today's TV environment.

The smart thing to do with Riker once he was obviously ready to go off and be his own captain would be to give him the spinoff show. Doing a version of DS9 with Captain Riker would be fairly easy (though the different backstory to Sisko would have created a different dynamic), but by the time they seriously started thinking "Spinoff" they knew TNG films were on the horizon, so I guess even if he'd been offered it, Frakes would have opted for the movie career anyway.

It says a lot they seriously talked about killing Riker in Second Chances, promoting Data to first officer and having Thomas Riker take over ops. Apparently they decided not to shake things up that much with the films coming (I suppose billing would have been an issue as well, Frakes is the show's official second lead. Effectively demoting him to a lower role--even if the character was already in reality the fourth most important behind Data and Worf--would have likely caused issues).

On BoBW in general, what I love about it (and it's actually much more like Khan in this respect than the films that have actually tried to ape that one) is how it's not really a big all out action epic, it's about the tension and growing sense of doom.

Which is lucky as some of the action stuff has dated (Borg walks down corridor. Gets shot and falls over. Another Borg walks down corridor. Gets shot and falls over. Another Borg walks down corridor. Gets shot and falls over. Another Borg walks down corridor. It's forcefield has adapted! Shelby: Enterprise, get us out of here!. It's Jones' score that really sells that stuff), but overall it's still an extraordinary piece of TV.

It was nice to at least hear on DS9 that Shelby made captain before Riker (though Ron Moore apparently had to apologise to Peter David as they'd assured him before starting New Frontier they weren't going to do anything with Shelby. I've a feeling officially that's now a different Captain Shelby in deference to him, but screw that).

To your other point, I've honestly never been able to figure out why Data was so popular. The character is written so inconsistently. Like how he "can't feel any emotions" in spite of curiosity and the desire for self-improvement being the absolute core of the character. I'd be fine with that if there was some room left for us to say "of course he can, he's just so unaware of himself that he doesn't realize" but the script treats it like a factual truth even though we've seen so many times that it's clearly not. I mean, the guy has friends, a desire for self-preservation and self-determination, an insatiable desire to learn, a deep interest in how others' minds work -- none of those things would be true if there wasn't emotion behind them. But yet the show keeps telling us that, no, he's got no feelings just because he doesn't shout at people or get all mushy with members of the opposite sex (except that one time...) The whole thing is a huge middle finger to the core Trek idea that we should respect people's differences...he's clearly got emotions, but they just don't count because they're not the same as ours. As if Data is broken because he's different and he won't be right until what makes him unique is gone and replaced with a cookie-cutter human. And then they don't even have the guts to stick to their guns about that, and after he gains a lot of humanity over the first two films they immediately roll it back for the last two with no explanation given.

Brent Spiner is fantastic and he does a great job with whatever he's given, but what he's given is crap far too often. Its a credit to him really, with a lesser actor in that role Data would have been completely intolerable instead of just likeable-but-disappointing.

I read something a couple of years ago I'd never noticed before: At no point during the first two seasons is it said Data can't feel emotion. Indeed, he generally seems to, even if he doesn't really understand them and mostly has a childlike glee about things. It's Michael Piller in season 3 who decided he can't feel anything at all.

I think Data's big problem comes from the conflice Datalore creates with the backstory in the show bible everyone had been working from: That he'd been built by aliens to study humanity and was presumably relatively new at it. Then when they have to chuck a script out at the last second and come up with somthing on the spot (the evil twin thing was apparently Spiner's idea, and to be fair, he makes that episode however silly the script is in places. Killing Lore when he was obviously fodder for the films--especially when they wound up giving Data a new evil twin anyway--was very short sighted) he's suddenly been living around humans for decades and has the memories of hundreds of them.

It's a bad fudge for how he'd been portrayed so far (he'd gone two decades without hearing the word "Aphrodisiac"?), and worse than that they continue to treat him as a guy who doesn't really understand or get humans as if he's not spent that much time active.

And seriously, how had he not had sex before Tasha? People in the Trek Universe will pay to have sex with holograms so presumably a bit of fun with a "Programmed in multiple techniques" android who is going to be entirely about your pleasure rather than his would appeal in the sexually liberal 24th century? Surely as part of his exploration of humanity he'd try just about every type of position and partner across as many species and genders as he could?

Agreed on what they do to him in the films. I actually like his subplot in Generations (even if it is very much a TV episode structure B plot that doesn't really connect to anything else in the film), I know it annoys a lot of people but I actually find something unsettling about Data's attempts at humour and following breakdown.

If in the following film he'd just come to terms with emotions and was basically how Spock is from Khan onwards (basically at peace with himself and much happier) I think people would have less of a problem with it. But the backtracking that starts with Data's character development in First Contact and that has completely buggered what was once a great character by Nemesis makes it a dead end.



Totally agreed. I've loved her in everything I've seen her in, no matter how big or small the role. Even though she was only in it for a few episodes, Forbes' Admiral Cain is easily one of my favourite parts of the new BSG.

(And since you were perving on her earlier, I feel obliged to point out that the lady aged like a fine wine...)

Oh yes, though I suppose she was quite young when she did TNG, but ding dong. She seems to like doing random things as well, I'm still not sure how she wound up in that Ken Scott BBC thriller thing from a few years ago (as she was playing a deaf character it hardly needed an American!) but she was great in it.

To be honest, considering her talent and her experiences of being a Trek semi-regular and how that does involve a lot of just sitting there saying "Yes Sir, No Sir", I can see why she wasn't up for more. Though ironically the DS9 role would have given her much more meat if she'd agreed to take Ro over, Kira did very little of the stock Trek stuff.



Where Shinzon is concerned, though, I'm pretty sure it was on purpose. One of the biggest problems with the movie is that it tries to riff on The Wrath of Khan far, far too much.

Oh yes, and the nicking of the plot points shows how badly they misunderstand the situation.

Khan: Kirk flies into a nebula because the interference it causes with sensors places the damaged Enterprise on a level playing field with the Reliant and allows him to take advantage of Khan's inability to think of space in terms of three dimensions (which neatly forefronts one of the advantages of Kirk's age: His experience).

Nemesis: Picard flies into a nebula that allows Shinzon the ambush the Enterprise because of the way it interferes with sensors (and for some reason stops the Federation fleet waiting on the other side from sending in at least a couple of ships to see where the Enterprise got to when she doesn't come out) for no reason whatsoever other than "This is what happened in Khan".

Okay, this was all good and funny in the first place, but I think the joke's run its course.

TOPIC LOCKED.

If you'd have just said "Computer end program" I'd have locked the thread for you.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-10-09, 01:54 PM
Computer end Dalek.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-09, 01:58 PM
Like Star Trek: The Motion Picture I am endless.

Tetsuro
2015-10-09, 03:01 PM
Where Shinzon is concerned, though, I'm pretty sure it was on purpose. One of the biggest problems with the movie is that it tries to riff on The Wrath of Khan far, far too much.
Didn't all last three Trek films try to sell their villains as "the next Khan"? (I wouldn't be surprised if that "tradition" extended further than that either)

It kind of reminds me of what one of the producers of the Bond films said at some point; "Every time we tried to make another Goldfinger, we ended up with another Thunderball" - or something in those lines anyway.

Also I give you that Star Trek IV doesn't present you with any big ideas or deep message apart from the obvious ecological one, but it is essentially a feature-length comedy episode. There's no real villain apart from the alien probe which is more of a convenient plot device than a character in it's own right, and the only real danger the characters get to is when Chekov falls off a ledge. Even in the hospital chase scene we're provided with a humorous musical score emphasizing the lack of seriousness in the situation.

So yes, while the Abrams movies were also copping their ideas from the preceding films, they also didn't do them even half as well.

I'm also dreadfully biased in favour of anything TOS. http://tfarchive.com/community/images/ubbicons/icon11.gif TMP is also my favourite Star Trek film so that might give you some idea about my tastes

Brendocon 2.0
2015-10-09, 03:04 PM
Like Star Trek: The Motion Picture I am endless.

Pshh. I've read the Sandman. Not even the Endless were endless. Get thee to a recycle bin. DELETE.

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-10-13, 05:43 PM
Pshh. I've read the Sandman. Not even the Endless were endless. Get thee to a recycle bin. DELETE.

Any version of Star Trek: The Motion Picture would make The Endless beg for an end.

Denyer
2015-10-13, 05:58 PM
I have! I loved the first...oh, half of them, I'd say. But after he blew up Excalibur and split up the crew I found that the magic was gone, and I just got less and less interested with each ensuing time-skip.
Oh, and on New Frontier, I read the initial mini-series and the next two full length books, but lost track of it after that and it looks a rather hard series to just jump into.

Seems to be general experience of the series. I'd say you can read the four mini-novels plus #5 and #6 and skip ahead to Stone and Anvil (which is mainly flashback) plus maybe Double Helix #5: Double or Nothing and get the best of it. There's also a short story collection, No Limits, although I don't recall anything particularly memorable. Plus the obligatory short stories in anthologies such as Tales of the Dominion War, which also has a brilliant Scotty/McCoy story.

PAD wanders off into fanfic territory and power level creep a lot of the time. Didn't think he'd pull it back after Blind Man's Bluff, but the first part of The Returned doesn't seem too bad so far in that respect and will hopefully be a better capstone if that's where it wraps up. Overall it's been a neat concept.

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-10-13, 06:18 PM
The staggering thing about Baird as a director is even Paramount didn't think he was any good at it. They desperately wanted him to do the job he's actually talented at and perform an emergency edit on (IIRC) Mission Impossible 2 and Tomb Raider, the deal he struck was to get to direct a film afterwards. They literally looked down their list of projects and put him on the one they gave they least amount of **** about (over Berman's head) as quid pro quo for getting Lara Croft's boobs to bounce in slow motion properly.

As editor who has worked a LOT with Richard Donner over the years even Donner said Braid can be a huge pain in the ass to work with just as an editor. Donner said he would walk out of the editing room saying that he would never work with Donner and a hour later they would be back to cutting whatever film they were working on and this went on almost every picture the two worked on (this was especially true on the troubled productions of Superman: The Movie and Superman II: The Richard Donner Cut) and they worked on a lot of movies together.

Tetsuro
2015-10-13, 06:25 PM
A friend of mine watched DS9 some time ago and he hated it - or rather, he hated the last two seasons, when the writers suddenly backpedaled on character development just so one of them could re-introduce the Kira/Odo relationship. Or something. I haven't watched the series in like six years, but I am currently in a state of re-watching it. He also hated the more "supernatural" aspects of the show, but so far I've just been able to shrug it off with that Arthur C Clarke quote.

...and I just watched The Storyteller. Bajorans deflect an evil cloud with MIND-BEAMS!!! :sick:

inflatable dalek
2015-10-14, 08:00 PM
Seems to be general experience of the series. I'd say you can read the four mini-novels plus #5 and #6 and skip ahead to Stone and Anvil (which is mainly flashback) plus maybe Double Helix #5: Double or Nothing and get the best of it. There's also a short story collection, No Limits, although I don't recall anything particularly memorable. Plus the obligatory short stories in anthologies such as Tales of the Dominion War, which also has a brilliant Scotty/McCoy story.

I'd need to reread the early ones first, it's been nearly 20 years! I can remember the miniseries well enough (I used to have the audiobook, I even remember the first one being free with SFX, though I got the little hardback they did for the entire series) but couldn't tell you what happened in 5 and 6 if my life depended on it beyond the covers joining up.



...and I just watched The Storyteller. Bajorans deflect an evil cloud with MIND-BEAMS!!! :sick:

Well, it's not as if super telekinetic mind powers aren't an established part of Trek going back to the second pilot. ;)

Warcry
2015-10-14, 08:10 PM
It's clear from his commentary on Insurrection though he finds the whole moral point the film is trying to make really dumb. He even says when Baku Bloke sets his pacifist stall out that it's "Typical Piller crap". If the director, who sets so much of the tone and feel of the film, doesn't think the story is any good it's no wonder the film winds up no good.
Fair point. If the director isn't into it, that's going to hurt things a fair bit. It's kind of a shame that they couldn't either find a script the director liked, or find a director that liked the script. I can understand why they didn't want to fire one of the main cast of the film from direction duties, though.

The films have to try and service all the characters and tell a big self contained plot all within two hours. Themes tend to be a bit surface level. Which is why The Motion Picture is so annoying, it thinks it has this great big 2001 style revelation, but it basically boils down to the sort of thing the series did so often it should really be a post it note.

I think Khan actually does the layers thing better than any of them. Mainly because it doesn't go for the easy answers, it looks at the effect of ageing on a hero but doesn't come up with the stock "You're never too old for this shit" conclusion. Kirk does make mistakes, and they get people killed. He has to accept he's older and slower and that's no bad thing in and of itself because he also has experience.
I think part of why Khan was so good is that it ignored a bunch of the stuff in your first paragraph, though. I honestly can't remember if Sulu and Uhura even have lines, though I'm sure they did. And I only remember Scotty from that stupid "take the dead cadet's body up to the bridge" scene (that was his nephew IIRC, but I don't think the final film mentioned it), with Saavik "stealing" their screen time instead. And the plot wasn't self-contained, instead being built on the foundations of an old TV episode. I think that gave them a whole lot more room to maneuver.

In retrospect it's amazing Will Wheaton even showed up for a cameo, he's been very clear in interviews recently he deeply dislikes the way Rick Berman treated him on the show and still bears a grudge there.
Apparently it was his idea too. I remember reading that he contacted the producers after one of the other cast members told him that they were making another TNG film and that it'd be the last one.

I always thought that writing the character out with "he's a Traveller now LOL" was silly, because it was such a random about-face for the guy. It's a shame they didn't end his arc differently so that he could have actually, properly been in one of the movies. It would have been cool to see an adult Wesley actually do something.

When written at its worst the Federation is clearly evil, like in that episode with Worf's step brother where he's trying to save some people from an exploding planet and Picard is all "No, helping these people not die would break the Prime Directive, who knows what could happen if we interfer with the natural course of evolution on this planet and these children weren't all dead. Now let us watch the world explode!
The same general thing happens a few times in the series if memory serves, although they usually find a way to fix things anyway.

In a real-world sense I don't disagree with the "not our problem, warp nine to the next system!" policy towards crises like this. The Federation's mandate is to take care of Federation citizens, not spend their resources fixing problems outside of their borders. Non-interference is the only practical way of dealing with things, because if you help one species you're going to have fifty more banging down your door, and if you don't/can't help them then suddenly you're making yourself new enemies.

It's trying to wrap it up as a moral choice that gets my hackles up. The Prime Directive is usually a good rule, but the almost religious fervour that Picard defends it with is a bit unsettling. There's no valid argument where letting millions of innocents die is morally right, only scenarios where letting it happen is better for Federation interests. The other captains never seemed to have that same devotion to it, thankfully, so it's mostly a "Picard" issue and not a sign of the entire Federation being brainwashed.

Though he's called by at least one other name during the course of the series (I don't know how IMDB/Memory Alpha divy up the roles), so how many times he's Leslie and how many times he's The Other Fellow is open to debate. He could have been playing a different non-speaking character in every episode he's not called by name!
Memory Alpha pretends that they're all the same guy even when they're called different names, I think.

Well, famously Piller put no thought whatsoever into what would happen in Part 2 as he thought he was leaving the show. It's remarkable it works at all really (little things like how the saucer separation plan is set up in the first part are just luck rather than planning), it's shame it seems to convince them that writing the first part of a cross-season two parter without deciding on what was going to happen in the second was the way to go as none of the others are anywhere like as neat.
As a kid I always got super-excited for the two-parters whenever they came up, and I still have a soft spot for some of them (the Klingon civil war and that Mark Twain one) but for the most part they are some of the weakest parts of the series.

The smart thing to do with Riker once he was obviously ready to go off and be his own captain would be to give him the spinoff show. Doing a version of DS9 with Captain Riker would be fairly easy (though the different backstory to Sisko would have created a different dynamic), but by the time they seriously started thinking "Spinoff" they knew TNG films were on the horizon, so I guess even if he'd been offered it, Frakes would have opted for the movie career anyway.
Actually, I would have gone in the opposite direction -- give Riker the Enterprise and move Picard to the spin-off. That way you're leaving the weaker actor (no slight meant to Frakes here, I'm a big fan of his, but Patrick Stewart is a superstar for a reason) on the existing, established show while the bigger name moves over to the new show and gives the existing fanbase a big reason to tune in. In fact, split the crew in half and send Worf and O'Brien and Crusher along with him. Then introduce a few new characters on either show to fill up the roster.

They could make the movies work even with that, though obviously it'd be a huge departure from what they actually did.

It says a lot they seriously talked about killing Riker in Second Chances, promoting Data to first officer and having Thomas Riker take over ops. Apparently they decided not to shake things up that much with the films coming (I suppose billing would have been an issue as well, Frakes is the show's official second lead. Effectively demoting him to a lower role--even if the character was already in reality the fourth most important behind Data and Worf--would have likely caused issues).
Though at the same time, playing Tom Riker could have given Frakes so much more to do that the billing would have been justified again.

Which is lucky as some of the action stuff has dated (Borg walks down corridor. Gets shot and falls over. Another Borg walks down corridor. Gets shot and falls over. Another Borg walks down corridor. Gets shot and falls over. Another Borg walks down corridor. It's forcefield has adapted! Shelby: Enterprise, get us out of here!. It's Jones' score that really sells that stuff), but overall it's still an extraordinary piece of TV.
The score is great, but the lighting, costumes and set design are a big part of it too. They obviously put a huge amount of work into making the Borg terrifying, and it worked in a way that the later, CGI-driven attempts in Voyager never really did.

Part of why Best of Both Worlds works so well for me is that it was way more character-driven than anything that happened in TNG prior. It handles the crew's loss of a comrade with way more force than any of the one-and-done "Picard/Data/some other guy is missing or presumed dead" episodes that we got, and actually shows how important these people are to one another. It also tells you more about the sort of person that Riker is than the entire series up to that point (or rather, the person he grew into over three years), has one of the first actually good moments of Troi counselling someone, etc, etc. It also shows how much Data has grown, by making an intuitive leap that early Data never could have managed during his chat with Locutus.

(Intuition -- another irrational, emotional response that Data is allegedly incapable of!)

It was nice to at least hear on DS9 that Shelby made captain before Riker (though Ron Moore apparently had to apologise to Peter David as they'd assured him before starting New Frontier they weren't going to do anything with Shelby. I've a feeling officially that's now a different Captain Shelby in deference to him, but screw that).
Even by the books' timeline I'm pretty sure that's still true. In fact I think she made admiral before Riker made captain.

I read something a couple of years ago I'd never noticed before: At no point during the first two seasons is it said Data can't feel emotion. Indeed, he generally seems to, even if he doesn't really understand them and mostly has a childlike glee about things. It's Michael Piller in season 3 who decided he can't feel anything at all.]
That makes perfect sense to me, and that's about the time when I noticed that swerve as well. "Childlike glee" is a perfect way to describe early Data. He had flashes of it later on, but he also became a much more mature character as he became comfortable (Comfort! An emotion!) with himself and his life.

I think Data's big problem comes from the conflice Datalore creates with the backstory in the show bible everyone had been working from: That he'd been built by aliens to study humanity and was presumably relatively new at it.
How new at it could he have been, though? He was already a lieutenant commander in Starfleet, thought highly enough of to be made second officer of the fleet's biggest, newest and most important starship. He would have gone through the academy, plus time as an ensign, lieutenant junior grade and lieutenant before the series started (assuming he was promoted to lieutenant commander when he was chosen for the Enterprise job). Since Starfleet is based on the US Navy I looked up their rules, and apparently you need to have nine years of service before you qualify for promotion to lieutenant commander. Add on four years at the academy and he'd have been in Starfleet for at least thirteen years (indeed, the novels and such say he was around for much longer than that because he wasn't very ambitious and didn't seek out promotions the way a Riker would).

Actually, thinking back on it, the character would have made more sense if he'd started the show as a junior bridge officer like Worf or Geordi.

And seriously, how had he not had sex before Tasha? People in the Trek Universe will pay to have sex with holograms so presumably a bit of fun with a "Programmed in multiple techniques" android who is going to be entirely about your pleasure rather than his would appeal in the sexually liberal 24th century? Surely as part of his exploration of humanity he'd try just about every type of position and partner across as many species and genders as he could?
Data wasn't exactly a social butterfly at the start of the series. Doesn't he say a few times that Geordi was the first real friend he'd ever had? I wouldn't be at all surprised if, due to a mix of his own awkwardness and the discomfort it caused in other people, nobody had ever offered. And while I could totally see early Data going up and asking someone if they want to bang, the way he'd say it would be more likely to get him slapped than anything else.

If you'd have just said "Computer end program" I'd have locked the thread for you.
:lol:

Seems to be general experience of the series. I'd say you can read the four mini-novels plus #5 and #6 and skip ahead to Stone and Anvil (which is mainly flashback) plus maybe Double Helix #5: Double or Nothing and get the best of it. There's also a short story collection, No Limits, although I don't recall anything particularly memorable. Plus the obligatory short stories in anthologies such as Tales of the Dominion War, which also has a brilliant Scotty/McCoy story.
Double or Nothing is probably the last book in the series that I really enjoyed without any reservations, mainly for the Riker bits. Once Burned was probably my favourite, though, since it really did a great job setting up how Calhoun got to be who he was at the start of the series (sidenote: the Captain Pike space whales story that came right after it in the Captain's Table series was also fantastic).

The next two were okay, but after that he lost me a bit more every time until Blind Man's Bluff had me saying "Enough already!"

(Stone and Anvil would have been great if the linchpin of the whole thing hadn't been the third retelling of Ensign Janos's backstory...)

PAD wanders off into fanfic territory and power level creep a lot of the time. Didn't think he'd pull it back after Blind Man's Bluff, but the first part of The Returned doesn't seem too bad so far in that respect and will hopefully be a better capstone if that's where it wraps up. Overall it's been a neat concept.
I was actually really surprised to find out that they published a followup at all. Wasn't he on death's door a few years ago? I can't say that any more New Frontier will be high on my to-do list, though. There's already more Star Trek books than I have time to read (the only thing I've been able to keep up with lately has been Vanguard, which was amazing, and its follow-up, Seekers).

I think the thing that annoyed me the most about the later NF books was how little they felt connected to the rest of the Star Trek universe. Initially it was the story of a tight-knit Starfleet crew exploring the unknown, familiar stuff even if the characters were a bit weirder. But then basically everyone left the Excalibur, characters started dropping like flies, every enemy that shows up are basically gods, the events of the universe at large are basically ignored and I can't help but wonder why these books even have Star Trek on the cover anymore.

A friend of mine watched DS9 some time ago and he hated it - or rather, he hated the last two seasons, when the writers suddenly backpedaled on character development just so one of them could re-introduce the Kira/Odo relationship. Or something. I haven't watched the series in like six years, but I am currently in a state of re-watching it. He also hated the more "supernatural" aspects of the show, but so far I've just been able to shrug it off with that Arthur C Clarke quote.
I'd tend to think that the writers agreed with you. The show itself explained away a lot of its' own supernatural trappings, though. From the beginning the Prophets were just non-linear aliens with weird tech living in a wormhole, and I don't think they ever did anything that we hadn't seen accomplished with normal technology by other aliens in other shows.

Tetsuro
2015-10-14, 10:10 PM
I'd tend to think that the writers agreed with you. The show itself explained away a lot of its' own supernatural trappings, though. From the beginning the Prophets were just non-linear aliens with weird tech living in a wormhole, and I don't think they ever did anything that we hadn't seen accomplished with normal technology by other aliens in other shows.
Well, apart from wiping out the whole Dominion fleet when they entered the wormhole, but considering that was squarely their domain...I guess that's the reason I'm more tolerant towards the idea than he was, because while the Bajorans do treat them as actual gods, they're pretty much still in the same category as all the other non-corporeal lifeforms we'd seen in the past, like the Organians for example.

Plus I liked the whole juxtaposition between them, the closest thing to an actual god-like creature, to the Founders who simply bought into their own propaganda and thought they were gods.

Well, it's not as if super telekinetic mind powers aren't an established part of Trek going back to the second pilot. ;)
True, but the trouble with that particular story (The Storyteller, not Where No Man Has Gone Before) is that they never bother to actually explain what the hell that cloud thing was, or how exactly the positive emotions of the villagers drive it away. It's just a plot device for getting O'Brien into trouble, and not a very good one at that. WNMHGB at least made an attempt at trying to make the whole thing look scientific.

I could understand it was some kind of an attempt to bond O'Brien and Bashir, but if it was, it still leaves something to be desired. There's that later story with both of them trapped inside a room with a bomb or some kind of a bioweapon set to go off that was much better.

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-10-14, 10:16 PM
The same general thing happens a few times in the series if memory serves, although they usually find a way to fix things anyway.

In a real-world sense I don't disagree with the "not our problem, warp nine to the next system!" policy towards crises like this. The Federation's mandate is to take care of Federation citizens, not spend their resources fixing problems outside of their borders. Non-interference is the only practical way of dealing with things, because if you help one species you're going to have fifty more banging down your door, and if you don't/can't help them then suddenly you're making yourself new enemies.

It's trying to wrap it up as a moral choice that gets my hackles up. The Prime Directive is usually a good rule, but the almost religious fervour that Picard defends it with is a bit unsettling. There's no valid argument where letting millions of innocents die is morally right, only scenarios where letting it happen is better for Federation interests. The other captains never seemed to have that same devotion to it, thankfully, so it's mostly a "Picard" issue and not a sign of the entire Federation being brainwashed.

IIRC in that episode Dr. Crusher explains that she realizes that are a million little problems moving that clan to a new planet. Ranging from them finding food to disease to climate to dangerous lifeforms to other intelligent inhabitants. Is that basically the crew are being forced to play God with this clan.

Kirk and company had to deal with it. In Bread and Circus Scotty has to get Kirk, Spock, and McCoy has to get them out an Earth like planet where the Roman Empire never fell and because of the Prime Directive he can't use any of their technology to do it.

Both Sisko and Janeway also had to deal with it.

Unicron
2015-10-14, 11:21 PM
True, but the trouble with that particular story (The Storyteller, not Where No Man Has Gone Before) is that they never bother to actually explain what the hell that cloud thing was, or how exactly the positive emotions of the villagers drive it away. It's just a plot device for getting O'Brien into trouble, and not a very good one at that. WNMHGB at least made an attempt at trying to make the whole thing look scientific.
They explained it. The Dal'Rok (the cloud thing) was created by the storyteller using an Orb fragment, with the idea of creating unity among the villagers by pitting them against a common foe.

I could understand it was some kind of an attempt to bond O'Brien and Bashir, but if it was, it still leaves something to be desired. There's that later story with both of them trapped inside a room with a bomb or some kind of a bioweapon set to go off that was much better.
Pretty sure bonding was the intent of the episode. And yeah, the one where Bashir and O'Brien are helping that week's set of wacky haired aliens dispose of bioweapons was much better.
Plus it made Keiko look like an idiot at the end of the episode

Tetsuro
2015-10-15, 02:22 AM
They explained it. The Dal'Rok (the cloud thing) was created by the storyteller using an Orb fragment, with the idea of creating unity among the villagers by pitting them against a common foe.
I recall something about an orb fragment, but the rest of it must've slipped right past me. I don't know where my head's at.

And I remember like nothing about the other episode beyond what I described, so for all I know it might've been a complete turd.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-16, 03:56 PM
Fair point. If the director isn't into it, that's going to hurt things a fair bit. It's kind of a shame that they couldn't either find a script the director liked, or find a director that liked the script. I can understand why they didn't want to fire one of the main cast of the film from direction duties, though.

Siritis is even more scathing of it, which has a degree of irony considering she probably gets more to do overall than in the other three (even if her defining film moment is in FC). IIRC She even says she fell asleep at the premier, much as Jimmy Doohan did during Generations.


I think part of why Khan was so good is that it ignored a bunch of the stuff in your first paragraph, though. I honestly can't remember if Sulu and Uhura even have lines, though I'm sure they did. And I only remember Scotty from that stupid "take the dead cadet's body up to the bridge" scene (that was his nephew IIRC, but I don't think the final film mentioned it), with Saavik "stealing" their screen time instead. And the plot wasn't self-contained, instead being built on the foundations of an old TV episode. I think that gave them a whole lot more room to maneuver.

I think their their presence (bar Scotty, who as you say had the emotional resonance of him moment cut out. I just assumed the turbo lift was broken and took him to the bridge rather than sickbay by mistake) is roughly right for an average episode of the show. III is the first to really strive to make it a full ensemble, in that case because of no Nimoy creating a whole, but it carries on for the next three. Even if none of them like their moments in V!

I think one of the strengths of Khan (and FC mostly pulls it off as well), if that despite being a sequel it still works as a standalone. It's basically no different from a cop film where the guy they put away years ago comes back to get them.

Apparently it was his idea too. I remember reading that he contacted the producers after one of the other cast members told him that they were making another TNG film and that it'd be the last one.

IIRC Levar Burton suggested he should try and get in it when they were on the Weakest Link.

I always thought that writing the character out with "he's a Traveller now LOL" was silly, because it was such a random about-face for the guy. It's a shame they didn't end his arc differently so that he could have actually, properly been in one of the movies. It would have been cool to see an adult Wesley actually do something.

Plus it's a dreary episode as well, part of that 90's American TV thing of "Boy we were racist towards the Indians. Let's make up for it by patronising!" trend.


The same general thing happens a few times in the series if memory serves, although they usually find a way to fix things anyway.

In a real-world sense I don't disagree with the "not our problem, warp nine to the next system!" policy towards crises like this. The Federation's mandate is to take care of Federation citizens, not spend their resources fixing problems outside of their borders. Non-interference is the only practical way of dealing with things, because if you help one species you're going to have fifty more banging down your door, and if you don't/can't help them then suddenly you're making yourself new enemies.

It's trying to wrap it up as a moral choice that gets my hackles up. The Prime Directive is usually a good rule, but the almost religious fervour that Picard defends it with is a bit unsettling. There's no valid argument where letting millions of innocents die is morally right, only scenarios where letting it happen is better for Federation interests. The other captains never seemed to have that same devotion to it, thankfully, so it's mostly a "Picard" issue and not a sign of the entire Federation being brainwashed.

Yeah, not trying to save everyone outside their borders is sensible, especially with planet destroying disasters being so common in Trek, but when they go to watch the planet self destruct and put people on the surface to look at the people before they die but don't lift a finger to do anything they're just dicks.



As a kid I always got super-excited for the two-parters whenever they came up, and I still have a soft spot for some of them (the Klingon civil war and that Mark Twain one) but for the most part they are some of the weakest parts of the series.

Oh yes, there was always something exciting about double length episodes that's been lost in these days of increased serialisation. Kids today, eh?



Though at the same time, playing Tom Riker could have given Frakes so much more to do that the billing would have been justified again.

Mind, both O'Brien and Harry Kim got replaced by doubles during the course of their series and no one ever noticed or ever mentioned it again, so maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.


The score is great, but the lighting, costumes and set design are a big part of it too. They obviously put a huge amount of work into making the Borg terrifying, and it worked in a way that the later, CGI-driven attempts in Voyager never really did.

Oh yes. HD has mostly been very kind on TNG. Planet Hell looks even ropier, but for a series that's been so dismissed as being beige and dull to look at, just how bright and colourful the show is and how well the models and costumes (mostly) stand up was a revelation.

Part of why Best of Both Worlds works so well for me is that it was way more character-driven than anything that happened in TNG prior. It handles the crew's loss of a comrade with way more force than any of the one-and-done "Picard/Data/some other guy is missing or presumed dead" episodes that we got, and actually shows how important these people are to one another. It also tells you more about the sort of person that Riker is than the entire series up to that point (or rather, the person he grew into over three years), has one of the first actually good moments of Troi counselling someone, etc, etc. It also shows how much Data has grown, by making an intuitive leap that early Data never could have managed during his chat with Locutus.

Mostly bang on, though I don't think Troi actually helps Riker with his decision beyond rubbing his face in it about having gotten older.


Even by the books' timeline I'm pretty sure that's still true. In fact I think she made admiral before Riker made captain.

Oh that's hilarious!

I know one of the big ideas of Trek is that everyone is happy and can live the lives they want. But lots of people want to be first officer on the Enterprise, it's really not fair of Riker to hog it as long as he did.



How new at it could he have been, though? He was already a lieutenant commander in Starfleet, thought highly enough of to be made second officer of the fleet's biggest, newest and most important starship. He would have gone through the academy, plus time as an ensign, lieutenant junior grade and lieutenant before the series started (assuming he was promoted to lieutenant commander when he was chosen for the Enterprise job). Since Starfleet is based on the US Navy I looked up their rules, and apparently you need to have nine years of service before you qualify for promotion to lieutenant commander. Add on four years at the academy and he'd have been in Starfleet for at least thirteen years (indeed, the novels and such say he was around for much longer than that because he wasn't very ambitious and didn't seek out promotions the way a Riker would).

Star Fleet is actually promotion happy it seems. Nog went from first year cadet to Lt. in four years (yes, there was a war, but there was at least one brutal nasty war prior to the start of TNG. Even if no one ever mentioned the Cardassians until 30 seconds before they first appeared), Wesley got to be an full ensign without going to the academy (presumably if Wheaton had stayed it would have been a permanent position) and thanks to poor continuity there's internal evidence in the original series Kirk was a Lt. before leaving the academy (annoyingly I know one of the episodes that contradic each other is Court Martial but I can't remember the other!).

Plus nu Kirk went from cadet to Captain instantly (and it almost makes sense considering the rest of Star Fleet has virtually be wiped out. It's just a bit too ludicrous a lead. And makes Riker not keeping his promotion in similar circumstances even similar).

I actually really like how Data handles command whenever we see him in a position to do so, he has a nice brisk no-nonsense style that works. He handles that dick in Redemption well (despite the forced drama in him not just going "Data to Enterprise, I have a solution to our problem, please hold") and dealt with Worf's grumpiness well in Gambit.

He's also the only one of the bridge crew to act like a grown up around Jericho (though to be fair, Geordi seems to be coming round by the end). It's actually embarrassing to see Riker throwing his toys out the pram at having to deal with a different command style. Certainl Jericho comes over much better in their big confrontation, allowing ranks to be dropped so Riker can get everything off his chest in one go and making the grovelling apology needed to get Riker to do the job. All whilst Will is insanely smug (I wonder if Geordi was lying about him being the best pilot just to help his mate out?!).

Oddly the Federation have a clear distrust of robots and artificial intelligence in general, neither are as advanced as you'd expect and how often do you get variants on the "Put it on manual, this needs human intuition!" scene? As with genetics, something must have happened there.

Indeed, how often did Data get shown up because he didn't have a "Gut"? Troi beat him at chess! In a scene written by someone who has never played chess (try doing a game just following your gut instinct).


I'd tend to think that the writers agreed with you. The show itself explained away a lot of its' own supernatural trappings, though. From the beginning the Prophets were just non-linear aliens with weird tech living in a wormhole, and I don't think they ever did anything that we hadn't seen accomplished with normal technology by other aliens in other shows.

Though there is a shift in that Sisko pretty much emphatically comes to believe in them as Prophets/Gods (there's also a shift in how they behave, in the pilot they're accidental gods who just want to be left alone. By series end... well they're basically the Vorlons from Babylon 5).

Warcry
2015-10-16, 06:06 PM
Well, apart from wiping out the whole Dominion fleet when they entered the wormhole, but considering that was squarely their domain...I guess that's the reason I'm more tolerant towards the idea than he was, because while the Bajorans do treat them as actual gods, they're pretty much still in the same category as all the other non-corporeal lifeforms we'd seen in the past, like the Organians for example.
More or less. The Dominion fleet isn't exactly the first thing to get lost in the wormhole...IIRC at least one guy gets transported through time by it, and I'm pretty sure other stuff just disappeared or disabled from time to time. They could have sent the Jem'Hadar somewhere else entirely, or maybe they're still in there getting into confusing arguments with ephemeral versions of all the Vorta and Founders that they've met.

In spite of their highly alien nature and extreme power levels, there's a "science" of sorts to what the Prophets can and can't do that makes rational sense, so like you say they fall into the "really advanced aliens" category for me. They can't just snap their fingers and make anything happen the way Q or Apollo did.

Plus I liked the whole juxtaposition between them, the closest thing to an actual god-like creature, to the Founders who simply bought into their own propaganda and thought they were gods.
The contrast between them was one of my favourite parts of the series as well. Though the argument could be made...the Prophets just sat in their ivory tower and never did shit aside from raping Sisko's mom so that he'd be born and do their busywork. Their "relationship" with Bajor was strictly one-way and they didn't even seem to be aware of it. The Founders actually created life and gave it purpose, elevating the Vorta from simple monkeys to a highly-intelligent sentient race and creating the Jem'Hadar out of nothing. So which of them are the real gods after all?

IIRC in that episode Dr. Crusher explains that she realizes that are a million little problems moving that clan to a new planet. Ranging from them finding food to disease to climate to dangerous lifeforms to other intelligent inhabitants. Is that basically the crew are being forced to play God with this clan.
That sounds familiar, yeah. Though a lot of the problems are due to the subterfuge rather than the move itself. If the aliens were aware of what was happening they could have worked together with them to solve all of those little issues, but keeping them in the dark about what was actually going on (in order to "preserve their culture", a futile endeavour when you plan to take them away from everything that made that culture possible to begin with) made that impossible.

The problems cut both ways, too -- introducing an alien species to a new environment usually has disastrous consequences for that environment as well, wether or not the new species is intelligent. The aliens could well destroy the local ecosystem just by being there.

Plus it's a dreary episode as well, part of that 90's American TV thing of "Boy we were racist towards the Indians. Let's make up for it by patronising!" trend.
Ironically, I just watched this episode last night. Holy shit is it awful! And even more racist than the old media portrayals they were trying to make up for. Everyone calls the colonists "Indians" even though that was already an outdated, sorta-offensive term in the 1990s, even the Cardassians (who surely wouldn't care about aliens' ethnic background while trying to evict them). There's absolutely no mention of what their actual tribal background is, and indeed the episode gives them a culture that's basically a mishmash of old, half-understood Hollywood "spiritual injun" tropes (though this is the show that treats France and England as basically the same place, so they've got form for this). Everyone is running around in buckskin vests and other such stereotypical clothing. Tom Jackson's spiritual leader character wanders around spouting empty homilies for 45 minutes before it turns out he's actually a white guy in disguise because god forbid a minority guest star have impact on the plot. Frankly I'm surprised nobody tried to scalp the Cardassians they took hostage. And then the whole thing was resolved off-screen by the colonists agreeing to live on a 24-century Indian Reserve in Cardassian territory.

And yet somehow the Wesley B-plot managed to be even worse.

Admiral Nachayev was always awesome, though, so the episode at least had that going for it.

Mind, both O'Brien and Harry Kim got replaced by doubles during the course of their series and no one ever noticed or ever mentioned it again, so maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.
I was about to say "no, the O'Brien double got killed", until I realized that it happened twice to him, maybe three times.

Mostly bang on, though I don't think Troi actually helps Riker with his decision beyond rubbing his face in it about having gotten older.
I don't know about that. She didn't help him decide per se, but she cut through a lot of the bullshit that he was going in circles about and made him focus on what was actually important. "What do you want, Will Riker?". None of the "oh I'm too comfortable here!" or "I wanted to be captain before I turned 30!" nonsense, but what would actually make him happy.

Even though I wish they'd gone in a different direction with the character, I think that conversation was what made Riker realize that he wasn't as ambitious as he used to be, that he was really happy with the life he had now, and most importantly that it was okay to feel that way. I mean, we all had our dreams when we were kids but how many of us really want to be the boss at work once we're grown up and realize how much extra trouble it is?

I know one of the big ideas of Trek is that everyone is happy and can live the lives they want. But lots of people want to be first officer on the Enterprise, it's really not fair of Riker to hog it as long as he did.
Right, but by that logic Picard should have retired so that Riker could be captain. So it was Jean-Luc's fault all along!

Star Fleet is actually promotion happy it seems. Nog went from first year cadet to Lt. in four years (yes, there was a war, but there was at least one brutal nasty war prior to the start of TNG. Even if no one ever mentioned the Cardassians until 30 seconds before they first appeared), Wesley got to be an full ensign without going to the academy (presumably if Wheaton had stayed it would have been a permanent position) and thanks to poor continuity there's internal evidence in the original series Kirk was a Lt. before leaving the academy (annoyingly I know one of the episodes that contradic each other is Court Martial but I can't remember the other!).
I don't know enough about the original series to really comment on Kirk, but Saavik was definitely a Lieutenant and a cadet at the same time. A lot of the secondary sources at the time (novels and such) made it seem like people went to the Academy for a while, then dicked around as ensigns, then picked a specialty and went back to the academy to train some more (hence Chekov being head of security in TMP in spite of having nothing to do with it in the TV series).

Nog, as you say, was a wartime promotion. Considering the amount of casualties going around I'd imagine there were tons of those. After all, losing 100 ships in a single battle apparently wasn't unusual. On the other hand, I don't think Wesley's rank would have been recognized outside of the Enterprise chain of command, just like all the Maquis that Janeway slapped officers' ranks on probably would have raised some eyebrows once Voyager got home. Obviously they would have handwaved it if the actor hadn't quit, but the way it worked out actually made a lot of sense -- Wesley had an entry-level position on the Enterprise, but to advance his career beyond that he had to give it up and take a step back. But in Nog's case Starfleet had lost so many good officers that they really had no choice but to keep promoting people even if their formal training was cut short.

Re: the Cardassian war, the only thing that makes any sense to me is that it was akin to the first Gulf War -- a big deal to the smaller power that got its' shit kicked in, but much less of a worry for the bigger, more advanced Federation. The Cardies just never seemed to be much of a threat, and their technology (as we saw in DS9) was way behind Federation standard. Just based on what we saw, pre-Dominion I'd guess they were more on par with the technology of Kirk's era than Picard's.

The Klingons curb-stomped them pretty effortlessly too, when it came down to it, even when it seemed like they weren't actually trying that hard to do so.

Plus nu Kirk went from cadet to Captain instantly (and it almost makes sense considering the rest of Star Fleet has virtually be wiped out. It's just a bit too ludicrous a lead. And makes Riker not keeping his promotion in similar circumstances even similar).
And then from captain back down to cadet at the start of the second one, because reasons. The new movies are idiotic on that front though, so I can't take anything they've got to say seriously.

I actually really like how Data handles command whenever we see him in a position to do so, he has a nice brisk no-nonsense style that works. He handles that dick in Redemption well (despite the forced drama in him not just going "Data to Enterprise, I have a solution to our problem, please hold") and dealt with Worf's grumpiness well in Gambit.
Yeah, if I was in Starfleet I would love to serve under Captain Data.

He's also the only one of the bridge crew to act like a grown up around Jericho (though to be fair, Geordi seems to be coming round by the end). It's actually embarrassing to see Riker throwing his toys out the pram at having to deal with a different command style. Certainl Jericho comes over much better in their big confrontation, allowing ranks to be dropped so Riker can get everything off his chest in one go and making the grovelling apology needed to get Riker to do the job. All whilst Will is insanely smug (I wonder if Geordi was lying about him being the best pilot just to help his mate out?!).
Worf actually got along pretty well with Jellico too, didn't he? Although the chance to bust Cardassian heads might have had something to do with that.

That whole scenario was hilarious, because Jellico proved to be a better captain than Picard ever would have been in the same situation -- I mean, Picard never would have been ruthless enough to do what Jellico did and resolve the situation without a fight, because Picard never would have been willing to blow up fifty Cardassian warships with hidden bombs if his bluff got called. Riker meanwhile was a petulant child, and spent the whole two-parter pouting because he wasn't chosen to be captain while Picard was away (well gee Will, maybe you shouldn't have turned down all those promotions then if you want to be captain so badly...). Even Geordi was constantly pouting about having some of his staff reassigned, as if security wasn't important and they wouldn't need armed, trained officers if a war broke out. Meanwhile Data and Worf, the only two people on the ship who actually act like they understand how serious the situation is, thrive under him and probably would have loved it if he'd stayed.

It's funny that so much of the fandom (and even the novels, like New Frontier) make Jellico out to be this completely unreasonable tool, when honestly, he seemed like a great guy to work for.

Indeed, how often did Data get shown up because he didn't have a "Gut"? Troi beat him at chess! In a scene written by someone who has never played chess (try doing a game just following your gut instinct).
Kind of ironic, considering how invincible modern chess software is even against grand champions.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-17, 03:46 PM
In spite of their highly alien nature and extreme power levels, there's a "science" of sorts to what the Prophets can and can't do that makes rational sense, so like you say they fall into the "really advanced aliens" category for me. They can't just snap their fingers and make anything happen the way Q or Apollo did.

I always thought it was a shame that for the last season the original "Prophets speak through the appearance of suspiciously appropriate people" idea was dropped for "The Prophets speak through the form of Sisko's played by a bad actress mother".


The contrast between them was one of my favourite parts of the series as well. Though the argument could be made...the Prophets just sat in their ivory tower and never did shit aside from raping Sisko's mom so that he'd be born and do their busywork. Their "relationship" with Bajor was strictly one-way and they didn't even seem to be aware of it. The Founders actually created life and gave it purpose, elevating the Vorta from simple monkeys to a highly-intelligent sentient race and creating the Jem'Hadar out of nothing. So which of them are the real gods after all?

Thankfully the show never flat out said it, but the general fan assumption used to be that the Prophets were the future evolved form of the Bajorans ("We are of Bajor").




Ironically, I just watched this episode last night. Holy shit is it awful! And even more racist than the old media portrayals they were trying to make up for. Everyone calls the colonists "Indians" even though that was already an outdated, sorta-offensive term in the 1990s, even the Cardassians (who surely wouldn't care about aliens' ethnic background while trying to evict them). There's absolutely no mention of what their actual tribal background is, and indeed the episode gives them a culture that's basically a mishmash of old, half-understood Hollywood "spiritual injun" tropes (though this is the show that treats France and England as basically the same place, so they've got form for this). Everyone is running around in buckskin vests and other such stereotypical clothing. Tom Jackson's spiritual leader character wanders around spouting empty homilies for 45 minutes before it turns out he's actually a white guy in disguise because god forbid a minority guest star have impact on the plot. Frankly I'm surprised nobody tried to scalp the Cardassians they took hostage. And then the whole thing was resolved off-screen by the colonists agreeing to live on a 24-century Indian Reserve in Cardassian territory.

In slight mitigation, according to The Companion they did consult whatever the representative body of Native American culture is in America (I forget the exact name, King of the Indians? Sadie?) and were assured "Indian" was OK to use, but were asked to change to script so it wasn't a specific tribe featured in the episode.

Maybe they were taking the piss? Or just out of touch with general Native American feeling?


I was about to say "no, the O'Brien double got killed", until I realized that it happened twice to him, maybe three times.

Yeah, O'Brien from season 3 onwards is a slightly younger replacement from a defunct timeline who watched the original die.



Right, but by that logic Picard should have retired so that Riker could be captain. So it was Jean-Luc's fault all along!

And if Crusher had put out (that's a suspicious accident Jack had isn't it? Especially as Generations reveals his ideal dream wife looks just like another crewmember who was widowed) Picard would have been relaxed enough to go!


I don't know enough about the original series to really comment on Kirk, but Saavik was definitely a Lieutenant and a cadet at the same time. A lot of the secondary sources at the time (novels and such) made it seem like people went to the Academy for a while, then dicked around as ensigns, then picked a specialty and went back to the academy to train some more (hence Chekov being head of security in TMP in spite of having nothing to do with it in the TV series).

That sounds like they're trying to make sense of the Kirk thing.

I picked up the costumes of Star Trek hardback last week, and there's a publicity picture of Saavik in there I'd not seen before where she's managing to work the Mountie uniform very well.


Re: the Cardassian war, the only thing that makes any sense to me is that it was akin to the first Gulf War -- a big deal to the smaller power that got its' shit kicked in, but much less of a worry for the bigger, more advanced Federation. The Cardies just never seemed to be much of a threat, and their technology (as we saw in DS9) was way behind Federation standard. Just based on what we saw, pre-Dominion I'd guess they were more on par with the technology of Kirk's era than Picard's.

It actually got a bit silly how many species the Enterprise and DS9 crews run into (I don't know if Voyager and Enterprise carried it on, the last example I can think of is The Adversary) the Federation had been at war with in recent memory--sometimes even the life of the series--but hadn't been mentioned before. The Cardassians were the only ones to stick.


And then from captain back down to cadet at the start of the second one, because reasons. The new movies are idiotic on that front though, so I can't take anything they've got to say seriously.

Yeah, I always found the "He had to be Captain by the end of the film because people wouldn't stand for otherwise" stance odd considering the very obvious Batman Begins influence (oh look, the second film features the drastically reinvented most popular recurring villain. Though one of the things I do like about Into Darkness is it subverts a lot of Ledgerisms everyone has felt compelled to do, it was actually nice to have a villain who doesn't have Every Single Thing Including Their Own Capture planned out in advance and actually has to react to the actions of the heroes and plan on the hoof) where Gordon didn't end the film as Commissioner.

Plus the equally Nolanesque Craig Bond's (they destroyed stately Bond manor!) didn't feel compelled to stick every single thing people expect in there right away.

It would actually make sense for Data to have gone through the academy quickly considering his intelligence, speed and the fact he can study 24 hours a day (and surely they must have courses of different duration for more intelligent species like Vulcans? Or very short lived ones like Kes who would be almost dead by the time she graduated?), though I suppose with the whole "Desire to be human" thing he'd have probably insisted on the long road.

Yeah, if I was in Starfleet I would love to serve under Captain Data.

Shame really, he probably thought he could just out-wait Riker considering the whole immortal thing.


Worf actually got along pretty well with Jellico too, didn't he? Although the chance to bust Cardassian heads might have had something to do with that.

I don't recall Worf getting much to do in the second part, once he's rescued he just goes back to duty, we don't hear him moan but he doesn't get chance to (having a lot of inexperienced engineers on his staff all of a sudden would probably be annoying!).

Crusher of course manages to get her oar in though. "I have to get ready for all the casualties you're about to send me", I bet he was already thinking of getting Pulaski back.

That whole scenario was hilarious, because Jellico proved to be a better captain than Picard ever would have been in the same situation -- I mean, Picard never would have been ruthless enough to do what Jellico did and resolve the situation without a fight, because Picard never would have been willing to blow up fifty Cardassian warships with hidden bombs if his bluff got called. Riker meanwhile was a petulant child, and spent the whole two-parter pouting because he wasn't chosen to be captain while Picard was away (well gee Will, maybe you shouldn't have turned down all those promotions then if you want to be captain so badly...). Even Geordi was constantly pouting about having some of his staff reassigned, as if security wasn't important and they wouldn't need armed, trained officers if a war broke out. Meanwhile Data and Worf, the only two people on the ship who actually act like they understand how serious the situation is, thrive under him and probably would have loved it if he'd stayed.

Yeah, and to be fair to Geordi, he at least handles his grievance properly (complaining to Riker as the guy who has to deal with personnel issues), he doesn't actually start almost crying in front of the captain. How can Riker not have a handle on the idea of "Plausible deniability" missions?

It basically shows how homogeneous that crew had become, they worked well together but were so wary of outsiders and doing things differently there was no way they were going to move on in their careers.

Data's "Actually we can do that easily" always cracks me up.

It's funny that so much of the fandom (and even the novels, like New Frontier) make Jellico out to be this completely unreasonable tool, when honestly, he seemed like a great guy to work for.

Yes, now you mention it, I do remember not liking that about those books, he'd suddenly become Mr. Belding. He actually reminded me more of the dick Captain from David's earlier book Vendetta (which is, or at least was as I remember it, generally an awesome Borg book).

Denyer
2015-10-18, 12:34 PM
The IDW one-shot about Jellico is worth a look. He's still rather a dick, but much more competent than various other appearances and you can follow his logic.

I was actually really surprised to find out that they published a followup at all. Wasn't he on death's door a few years ago? I can't say that any more New Frontier will be high on my to-do list, though. There's already more Star Trek books than I have time to read (the only thing I've been able to keep up with lately has been Vanguard, which was amazing, and its follow-up, Seekers).

Yeah, almost didn't make it.

I got through a few books of Vanguard and gave up, TBH... even though I was reading it over an extended period, it seemed to be repeating itself quite a lot.

Of the new stuff, I thoroughly enjoyed DTI, don't mind a bit of Titan, quite enjoyed the Destiny arc putting a lid on a series of increasingly fanfic-ish Borg stories (such as Before Dishonor, which was PAD as well) and the Typhon Pact / DS9 / Voyager stuff hasn't thrown up anything of particular interest from what I've read and can remember. I like that there's some advancement, but would rather have had more of the Nan Bacco era politics than another fill-in entry around Andor going nuts or slipstream technology.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-19, 07:05 PM
I guess people just can't get their head around Ronny Cox not being a bastard.

Warcry
2015-10-21, 06:53 PM
I always thought it was a shame that for the last season the original "Prophets speak through the appearance of suspiciously appropriate people" idea was dropped for "The Prophets speak through the form of Sisko's played by a bad actress mother".
Didn't notice that at the time, but you're right. It made the Prophet segments way less mind-trippy.

I guess the Prophets thought their words would seem more important if they came from someone Sisko saw as an authority figure/loved one? If so that means they understand linear thinking way more than they let on...

Thankfully the show never flat out said it, but the general fan assumption used to be that the Prophets were the future evolved form of the Bajorans ("We are of Bajor").
I've never heard of that before. It's a silly theory and I'm glad the show steered clear of it.

In slight mitigation, according to The Companion they did consult whatever the representative body of Native American culture is in America (I forget the exact name, King of the Indians? Sadie?) and were assured "Indian" was OK to use, but were asked to change to script so it wasn't a specific tribe featured in the episode.
I don't think the word was any more polite twenty years ago than it is now, really (I'd put it on par with "coloured", insofar is it comes across as old-timey and dismissive but not explicitly racist). But then I'm looking at it from a Canadian perspective and I really have no idea if things are different in the US.

I suppose I can understand the latter, if they spoke to a lobby group that represents multiple tribes, but I think it makes it really hard for anyone who's actually met any Aboriginal folk to take the message at all seriously. I mean there's only about 200,000 Aboriginals in Manitoba and even that relatively small number is divided into at least five different groups with wildly different cultures and histories. Across the whole continent you'd be talking about dozens of different groups, if not hundreds. It's hard to get across the "we treated these folks poorly" message when you're simultaneously playing the "all them brown folk are the same" card.

Yeah, O'Brien from season 3 onwards is a slightly younger replacement from a defunct timeline who watched the original die.
Yeah, at first I thought of the clone that some aliens made of him and sent back as an assassin.

I picked up the costumes of Star Trek hardback last week, and there's a publicity picture of Saavik in there I'd not seen before where she's managing to work the Mountie uniform very well.
Yeah, it's easy to forget how much of a looker Kirstie Alley was back in those days. She was also quite a good actress...I don't think the character or the film series ever truly recovered from replacing her.

It actually got a bit silly how many species the Enterprise and DS9 crews run into (I don't know if Voyager and Enterprise carried it on, the last example I can think of is The Adversary) the Federation had been at war with in recent memory--sometimes even the life of the series--but hadn't been mentioned before. The Cardassians were the only ones to stick.
Are there really that many? The Cardassians, Tzenkethi and Talarians are the only ones that come to mind off-hand. Or did they have a war with the Sheliac too before signing the insanely complex and technical treaty with them?

And also, there are a lot of different degrees of "war". Not every one of the Federation's conflicts needs to be the Dominion War, just like not every one of our wars are WWII.
Both of our countries are involved in a few right now in places like Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan, but the conflicts are so low-intensity that I'm sure a lot of people are totally unaware of them. I'm sure it's even easier to miss stuff like that when your country covers hundreds of star systems rather than a small chunk of land on a single planet. And, hell, the huge scale of the thing only makes it more likely that the Federation would get embroiled in a lot of (to them) small and insignificant conflicts out on the fringes.

It would actually make sense for Data to have gone through the academy quickly considering his intelligence, speed and the fact he can study 24 hours a day (and surely they must have courses of different duration for more intelligent species like Vulcans? Or very short lived ones like Kes who would be almost dead by the time she graduated?), though I suppose with the whole "Desire to be human" thing he'd have probably insisted on the long road.
Actually, I'd argue that the Academy is just as much about teaching the cadets to operate in Starfleet's quasi-military culture as it is about book-learning. And while Data could absorb information super-quick, I think he would have needed to spend those four years learning about the social aspects of the job rather than the technical ones.

Re: short-lived species, I suspect Starfleet would simply have pointed them towards the noncom training programs (which as per Simon Tarses, let you get out into space a lot sooner at the cost of not having the amount of education that an officer needs).

Crusher of course manages to get her oar in though. "I have to get ready for all the casualties you're about to send me", I bet he was already thinking of getting Pulaski back.
I would have cheered even harder for him if he'd done that. Pulaski was so much more fun than Crusher ever was. Though it also seems like she got as much to do in one season as Crusher did across six...

Yeah, and to be fair to Geordi, he at least handles his grievance properly (complaining to Riker as the guy who has to deal with personnel issues), he doesn't actually start almost crying in front of the captain. How can Riker not have a handle on the idea of "Plausible deniability" missions?
Obviously he's bought into Picard's transparently silly "Starfleet isn't a military" propaganda and developed a strong aversion to doing anything to actually defend the Federation. The Enterprise is their toy to use for explorationy fun, dammit!

I got through a few books of Vanguard and gave up, TBH... even though I was reading it over an extended period, it seemed to be repeating itself quite a lot.
The first books did get a bit repetitive if you don't like the general idea of the Shedai or the political nature of the story, but after that it shot off in totally unexpected directions and really kept my attention. I liked it because it was willing to actually pay off on the plotlines that Trek TV could only tease (like actually drumming a lead character out of Starfleet when he commits a court-martial offense). Also it was nice to see some TOS-era fiction that isn't dedicated to showing just how awesome Kirk and co. is...

Seekers is actually more my speed, though -- it follows the crews of a couple of the ships from Vanguard, but it's more of a straight-ahead exploration story without the geopolitics or eldritch horrors.

Of the new stuff, I thoroughly enjoyed DTI, don't mind a bit of Titan, quite enjoyed the Destiny arc putting a lid on a series of increasingly fanfic-ish Borg stories (such as Before Dishonor, which was PAD as well) and the Typhon Pact / DS9 / Voyager stuff hasn't thrown up anything of particular interest from what I've read and can remember. I like that there's some advancement, but would rather have had more of the Nan Bacco era politics than another fill-in entry around Andor going nuts or slipstream technology.
Titan lost me really early on, because the Martin/Mangels duo have all the subtlety of a bag of hammers and their idea of "show how the Federation's diversity makes it stronger" was to have characters get into out-of-character monologues about it constantly.

I avoided most of the Borg masturbation, though I did read Destiny and wasn't super impressed (I agree with you that it was good to put an end to all that). Typhon Pact, etc, didn't do too much to recapture me either, because so many of the characters have drifted off in nonsensical directions (Sisko comes back, then abandons his family and Bajor! Ro is captain of DS9! Kira is a Vedek!) and so many parts of the on-screen stories were undone (Data isn't dead anymore! Neither is Trip! Oh, and the last episode of Enterprise never happened!) to please a vocal minority of fans. It's like once Pocket had free reign to do whatever they wanted in the old universe, they fell into a comics-industry trap of trying to make every book an even with huge, shocking swerves instead of just telling solid stories.

I did love the initial DS9 relaunch books, but to be honest the line had run out of steam a while before the decision to take everything post-Destiny finally put it out of its' misery. The run from Avatar to Unity was amazing though, and tied up all of the nagging loose ends that the series left behind. I also loved the Andorian culture that the series built up, though it's very difficult to reconcile with the one that we saw on Enterprise and later books often struggle to blend the two. The new characters were great too -- Shar and Vaughn actually managed to become a couple of my favourite Trek characters ever, not an easy thing to do when they've never appeared on-screen in anything.

I'm not a Voyager fan, but I thought the first couple post-Destiny Voyager books were fantastic and I really liked seeing the crew have to deal with the fallout of losing their captain to the Borg. I'm not at all a fan of them bringing her back from the dead, though, and pretty much lost interest after that.

Articles of the Federation was one of my favourite sci-fi books ever, Trek or not, and it's a real shame that we're never going to get another Bacco-centered political thriller again. :(

Denyer
2015-10-21, 07:24 PM
Mmm, Articles is up there as one of a handful of books I can dip into at any point and read forwards or backwards. It's the Federation we hardly ever get to see as more than wallpaper.

One that surprised me favourably, considering I got it remaindered from a pound shop and it's a game tie-in, was The Needs of the Many. Trek doesn't often do news or interview style narratives, and the Sisko framing gives it a coherent thread.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-21, 08:03 PM
I don't think the word was any more polite twenty years ago than it is now, really (I'd put it on par with "coloured", insofar is it comes across as old-timey and dismissive but not explicitly racist). But then I'm looking at it from a Canadian perspective and I really have no idea if things are different in the US.

I suppose I can understand the latter, if they spoke to a lobby group that represents multiple tribes, but I think it makes it really hard for anyone who's actually met any Aboriginal folk to take the message at all seriously. I mean there's only about 200,000 Aboriginals in Manitoba and even that relatively small number is divided into at least five different groups with wildly different cultures and histories. Across the whole continent you'd be talking about dozens of different groups, if not hundreds. It's hard to get across the "we treated these folks poorly" message when you're simultaneously playing the "all them brown folk are the same" card.

Also, don't forget how it's Picard (the non-American in the group) who is made to feel guilty about the actions of his ancestors. And who needs North American history explained to him by Troi at one point.



Yeah, it's easy to forget how much of a looker Kirstie Alley was back in those days. She was also quite a good actress...I don't think the character or the film series ever truly recovered from replacing her.

Yeah, it's a shame the status quo is God thing came into effect. Curtis' Saavik was one of many Vulcans where the actor managed to confuse "Emotionless" with "Plank of wood" (mind, I saw her in a pre-Trek Knight Rider a few months ago and she almost made the Hoff look like an actor in it, so that may not have been a conscious choice).

Shame she didn't come back for VI as planned (or that they didn't just have Kim Catrall be Saavik 3, notably bringing Curtis back doesn't seem to have been on anyone's radar) so that twist might have been slightly less obvious.


Are there really that many? The Cardassians, Tzenkethi and Talarians are the only ones that come to mind off-hand. Or did they have a war with the Sheliac too before signing the insanely complex and technical treaty with them?

Sheliac as well IIRC. It may not seem a lot, but the entire aesthetic of TNG is clearly based on the Federation being in a long period of peace and stability (else dragging their families about and the general cruise ship in space feel really makes no sense), having all these bush fires doesn't really fit in with the feel of the show.

quote]
I would have cheered even harder for him if he'd done that. Pulaski was so much more fun than Crusher ever was. Though it also seems like she got as much to do in one season as Crusher did across six...[/quote]

Never got the Pulaski hate a lot of fandom has. Her arc with Data is a reaaaaaaally obvious one: That she'll initially dislike him and then come to respect and even love him. It's so clearly signposted all the "She's so mean to Data!" stuff seems silly. Especially as it's resolved early in the season, they clearly get on fine after Elementary, Dear Data (Fact: Geordi makes a better Watson with his strange James Mason impression than Martin Freeman).


Obviously he's bought into Picard's transparently silly "Starfleet isn't a military" propaganda and developed a strong aversion to doing anything to actually defend the Federation. The Enterprise is their toy to use for explorationy fun, dammit!

And also for him to bang chicks who wind up nearly taking over the Federation.

Jellico would probably have made him get into better shape as well. It's easy to joke about the weight gain, but Riker actually seems quite unhealthy in the later seasons. The odd walk gets odder and there's a bit in Silicon Avatar where he's clearly struggling to carry one of the colonists (more oddly Data also seems to be struggling when he has to take over, as if he's not really a super robot but a human actor with a bad back. Hmmm).

Though oddly he looks much slimmer in Generations when he switches to the DS9 uniform, despite it not fitting properly (being forced to wear Avery Brooks' costume despite Frakes being a giant. Poor old Levar Burton is having to wear O'Brien's as well. Guess who were the only two actors to get specially made versions of the jumpsuits for the film?).

Warcry
2015-10-22, 05:05 PM
So it turns out that our "how long was Data in Starfleet" question was answered on-screen in Datalore.

One of Data's first assignments after he graduated Starfleet Academy was aboard the USS Trieste. (TNG: "Clues") He spent three years as an ensign and twelve as a lieutenant before being promoted to lieutenant commander in 2360. (TNG: "Datalore") In 2364, he was assigned to the USS Enterprise-D as its second officer.
So apparently he was in Starfleet even longer than I'd thought, and he actually graduated from the Academy twelve years before Riker. It makes me wonder what kind of assignments he had before the Enterprise, to both rise so slowly and still be thought of highly enough to get the assignment as second officer.

Also Riker was something of a hotshot, apparently. He'd actually graduated at the same time as Geordi and only had seven years of experience by the time the series started. That doesn't really add up to me, given the job that he has and all the experiences he's said to have gone through. Also apparently Riker is almost a decade younger than the man playing him, which almost-but-not-quite works when he's a babyfaced skinny dude in season one. But by the time the finale rolls around he's the oldest-looking 35 year old in the galaxy.

One that surprised me favourably, considering I got it remaindered from a pound shop and it's a game tie-in, was The Needs of the Many. Trek doesn't often do news or interview style narratives, and the Sisko framing gives it a coherent thread.
I've heard mixed reviews on that one, though part of the flak is probably that (as an ST:O tie-in) it doesn't follow the novel continuity that most of its' target market are familiar with. Considering where that continuity has gone in the last decade, though, that's not a bad thing.

On the other hand, it has that tool Martin's name on the cover, so I can't imagine spending more than $1 or so on it...

Also, don't forget how it's Picard (the non-American in the group) who is made to feel guilty about the actions of his ancestors. And who needs North American history explained to him by Troi at one point.
Yeah, you'd think if they were going to guilt-trip anyone on the crew it'd be Riker, since he's the only person on the senior staff who's actually from North America. The connection that they drummed up for Picard was tenuous at best. Not to mention how silly it was that the colonists knew about it. I mean, how many people can tell you who their ancestors were and what they were doing in the 1700s now, let alone four hundred years in the future? Most branches of my family tree can't be traced much father back than the mid-1800s.

Yeah, it's a shame the status quo is God thing came into effect. Curtis' Saavik was one of many Vulcans where the actor managed to confuse "Emotionless" with "Plank of wood" (mind, I saw her in a pre-Trek Knight Rider a few months ago and she almost made the Hoff look like an actor in it, so that may not have been a conscious choice).
Yeah, Robin Curtis wasn't great. She managed to make a Romulan equally wooden in TNG, didn't she?

Shame she didn't come back for VI as planned (or that they didn't just have Kim Catrall be Saavik 3, notably bringing Curtis back doesn't seem to have been on anyone's radar) so that twist might have been slightly less obvious.
Agreed, it's a shame they didn't go in either of those directions. Random Vulcan Girl #2 is basically the same character, minus the audience's connection to Saavik.

Sheliac as well IIRC. It may not seem a lot, but the entire aesthetic of TNG is clearly based on the Federation being in a long period of peace and stability (else dragging their families about and the general cruise ship in space feel really makes no sense), having all these bush fires doesn't really fit in with the feel of the show.
That's a fair assessment, especially when you consider the state of Starfleet at the time. The backbone of the fleet was the 2280s-vintage Excelsior, Constellation, Oberth and Miranda-class designs, and there seemed to have been very little design work or shipbuilding done between them and the Galaxy and Nebula classes in the 2360s.

The only design we actually see in service that debuted between those two generations was the Ambassador-class, and those seem to be relatively thin on the ground (a shame since they're the prettiest Starfleet ship design ever). A handful of others are mentioned but only ever seen as debris in the Wolf 359 ship graveyard, like the New Orleans-class, so they must have been equally (if not more) rare. The impression it leaves me with was that the Federation felt secure enough in their position that they were happy to leave the bulk of their defence duties to a collection of eight decade old relics while only adding a modest number of modern designs every once in a while.

It wasn't until the Borg and Dominion became real threats that the Federation actually seemed to put much effort into modernizing their fleet, although to be fair once it became a priority they really put themselves into it. We saw a bunch of new classes of starship make their debut within a couple years. The Defiant and Intrepid classes were both brand-new with they showed up in DS9 and Voyager respectively, and First Contact debuted the Sovereign, Akira, Steamrunner and Saber classes. By the time the Dominion War kicked off, all six classes were a common sight on the battlefield (though the show was understandably reluctant to have too many copies of "hero" ships popping up unless they were plot-relevant), so they must have built hundreds of new starships in a matter of years.

Of course, after a century of intense cold war with the Klingons, Romulans and Tholians, it's not hard to see why the Federation would see the occasional border dust-up with these second-tier races as nothing to worry about.

Actually, the most telling thing is that, in the midst of/right after those wars with the Cardassians, Tzenkethi and Sheliac, the only aliens that the Federation seemed to actually be worried about were the Ferengi. Who they hadn't even met yet, and who were exactly no threat at all. It certainly gives me the impression that they could have easily rolled over the races that were bothering them, even with their geriatric fleet, if they'd actually had any interest in conquest.

Never got the Pulaski hate a lot of fandom has. Her arc with Data is a reaaaaaaally obvious one: That she'll initially dislike him and then come to respect and even love him. It's so clearly signposted all the "She's so mean to Data!" stuff seems silly. Especially as it's resolved early in the season, they clearly get on fine after Elementary, Dear Data (Fact: Geordi makes a better Watson with his strange James Mason impression than Martin Freeman).
Yeah, the Pulaski/Data stuff was obviously meant to echo Bones/Spock, with the obvious difference that Pulaski was shown as being wrong because it wasn't the 60s anymore. And like you say, it's resolved quickly and they both move on from it.

I was actually surprised on rewatch that they'd only done the Holmes thing twice, because it made such a huge impression on me. Spiner and Burton both did a great job at it.

Jellico would probably have made him get into better shape as well. It's easy to joke about the weight gain, but Riker actually seems quite unhealthy in the later seasons. The odd walk gets odder and there's a bit in Silicon Avatar where he's clearly struggling to carry one of the colonists (more oddly Data also seems to be struggling when he has to take over, as if he's not really a super robot but a human actor with a bad back. Hmmm).
I know people (like me!) tend to joke about him being old and fat in the later seasons, but I don't think I ever quite realized how much weight Frakes put on between seasons 2 and 3 until recently. I think he looked a ton better with the more...bearlike physique in the middle seasons, but that's definitely a part of why he suddenly started looking his age. And yeah, like you say he'd packed on even more pounds by the time the last couple years rolled around.

You'd think Starfleet would have physical fitness requirements for starship duty, no? I mean if you want to get fat while you're working at a desk in San Francisco that's one thing, but if you're on front-line duty leading away teams you really should have to be in shape. Though this is the same organization that sent a starship crewed entirely by pensioners out to make peace with the Klingons, so...

Though oddly he looks much slimmer in Generations when he switches to the DS9 uniform, despite it not fitting properly (being forced to wear Avery Brooks' costume despite Frakes being a giant. Poor old Levar Burton is having to wear O'Brien's as well. Guess who were the only two actors to get specially made versions of the jumpsuits for the film?).
Not Sirtis and McFadden, since they apparently refused to wear the DS9 outfits at all since they were unflattering (funny, since Terry Ferrell looked great in hers...).

The fact that Riker's uniform jacket sleeves only come down to his elbows is downright hilarious, but I can't for the life of me figure out why the producers thought that was a good look. I mean, shit, couldn't you just keep him in the TNG outfit the whole time? What gets me, though, is that they didn't have at least one uniform in their inventory that fit him. I mean, they've got to have a ton on-hand in different sizes for the extras to wear, right? And they didn't have a single one in Extra Large?

Geordi fit his just fine in spite of it not being tailored for him, I thought.

Speaking of Geordi, was there ever any reason given for the move from the Visor to "artificial eye" contacts? Was it because of the trouble they had filming the thing for the big screen in Generations, or did Burton just finally get sick of wearing it after eight years?

I was also sort of confused with how he grew normal eyes in Insurrection, only to be back to the machine ones again in Nemesis. I'm not entirely sure why or how they would have "un-healed" themselves. Or, for that matter, why they couldn't have just cloned him working eyes in the first place. Or a new heart for Picard.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-23, 03:15 PM
Also Riker was something of a hotshot, apparently. He'd actually graduated at the same time as Geordi and only had seven years of experience by the time the series started. That doesn't really add up to me, given the job that he has and all the experiences he's said to have gone through. Also apparently Riker is almost a decade younger than the man playing him, which almost-but-not-quite works when he's a babyfaced skinny dude in season one. But by the time the finale rolls around he's the oldest-looking 35 year old in the galaxy.

Blimey, I knew Picard was about a decade older than Stewart, but I didn't know Riker went the other way. Alaska must have some hard living if he was only in his twenties in season 1.

I wonder if Data spent a lot of time on Aquiel style one or two man deep space assignments with a lot of monotonous routine? He'd seem suited to it and would explain his lack of social development, plus you never really hear anything about his prior crews ulike Picard, Riker and Geordi.



Yeah, you'd think if they were going to guilt-trip anyone on the crew it'd be Riker, since he's the only person on the senior staff who's actually from North America. The connection that they drummed up for Picard was tenuous at best. Not to mention how silly it was that the colonists knew about it. I mean, how many people can tell you who their ancestors were and what they were doing in the 1700s now, let alone four hundred years in the future? Most branches of my family tree can't be traced much father back than the mid-1800s.

Plus Picard, who was all "Holding Worf accountable for the crimes of his Dad is a dick move" is genuinely remorseful and feels responsibility. I always suspect Old Indian guy was just playing him.



That's a fair assessment, especially when you consider the state of Starfleet at the time. The backbone of the fleet was the 2280s-vintage Excelsior, Constellation, Oberth and Miranda-class designs, and there seemed to have been very little design work or shipbuilding done between them and the Galaxy and Nebula classes in the 2360s.

Mind, them keeping the same basic shape and class designations doesn't mean there weren't drastic changes to the designs as they went along. An Enterprise B style Excelsior (and isn't it odd how we went all the way to the fourth season of DS9 without seeing one of those in the 24th century? Killing Kirk must have really put a dampener on enthusiasm for the extra fins) could hold its own against the only year and a bit old dedicated warship Defiant so it's presumably more modern than it looks.

The only design we actually see in service that debuted between those two generations was the Ambassador-class, and those seem to be relatively thin on the ground (a shame since they're the prettiest Starfleet ship design ever). A handful of others are mentioned but only ever seen as debris in the Wolf 359 ship graveyard, like the New Orleans-class, so they must have been equally (if not more) rare. The impression it leaves me with was that the Federation felt secure enough in their position that they were happy to leave the bulk of their defence duties to a collection of eight decade old relics while only adding a modest number of modern designs every once in a while.

Is the Nebula not supposed to be an interim class as well? I know we don't see it until well into the run of TNG but the look of the one Data took over in Redemption made it feel like an older ship to me.

It wasn't until the Borg and Dominion became real threats that the Federation actually seemed to put much effort into modernizing their fleet, although to be fair once it became a priority they really put themselves into it. We saw a bunch of new classes of starship make their debut within a couple years. The Defiant and Intrepid classes were both brand-new with they showed up in DS9 and Voyager respectively, and First Contact debuted the Sovereign, Akira, Steamrunner and Saber classes. By the time the Dominion War kicked off, all six classes were a common sight on the battlefield (though the show was understandably reluctant to have too many copies of "hero" ships popping up unless they were plot-relevant), so they must have built hundreds of new starships in a matter of years.

It's especially impressive considering it took years to build the Enterprise D, Starfleet must have been really slacking.


Actually, the most telling thing is that, in the midst of/right after those wars with the Cardassians, Tzenkethi and Sheliac, the only aliens that the Federation seemed to actually be worried about were the Ferengi. Who they hadn't even met yet, and who were exactly no threat at all. It certainly gives me the impression that they could have easily rolled over the races that were bothering them, even with their geriatric fleet, if they'd actually had any interest in conquest.

Of course, by the time those other races started showing up the Ferengi backstory was well on the way to being retconned so they'd been around and known for years (I think there's even a Voyager episode with a line about them visiting Wall Street before the end of capitalism).

There's actually a fairly persuasive theory that the timeline doesn't go back quite the same at the end of Yesterday's Enterprise (it works that originally the Romulan's involvement wasn't know, but whatever the C did upon its return meant this was exposed), which fans used to use to explain things like how the 50 year silence of the Romulans just sort of got forgotten. Maybe that affected things like the Ferengi and the smaller wars as well?



I was actually surprised on rewatch that they'd only done the Holmes thing twice, because it made such a huge impression on me. Spiner and Burton both did a great job at it.

They got into legal trouble with the Doyle estate and it took four years to sort it out and get permission to use the characters again.

Data really is a crap Sherlock Holmes fan though, he clearly has only read as far as The Final Problem from the way he thinks Moriarty killed Holmes!



Not Sirtis and McFadden, since they apparently refused to wear the DS9 outfits at all since they were unflattering (funny, since Terry Ferrell looked great in hers...).

Interesting, I'd always thought that was a producer choice to keep them in the tighter one-piece uniform throughout.

The fact that Riker's uniform jacket sleeves only come down to his elbows is downright hilarious, but I can't for the life of me figure out why the producers thought that was a good look. I mean, shit, couldn't you just keep him in the TNG outfit the whole time? What gets me, though, is that they didn't have at least one uniform in their inventory that fit him. I mean, they've got to have a ton on-hand in different sizes for the extras to wear, right? And they didn't have a single one in Extra Large?

It might be that was the closest "Hero" uniform they had, the extras costumes are often less detailed/well made (though it'd be hard to do that with DS9 jumpsuit). If only they hadn't wasted money making a load of new uniforms they never used.

The uniform thing in Generations is really odd. Defenders say that Star Fleet has two uniform types and wearing both on the same ship makes sense and is more like real navies. Which is fine, but completely at odds with the rest of Trek where everyone on the same ship wears the same uniform at all times.

it actually looks like they're in the middle of changing over to the new regular uniform (something backed up by Voayger using it. Was DS9 trying out the look before it was rolled out fleetwide? Mind, DS9 continued to use the TNG outfits for "Not We" officers) and everyone doesn't quite manage to start wearing it on the same day.


Speaking of Geordi, was there ever any reason given for the move from the Visor to "artificial eye" contacts? Was it because of the trouble they had filming the thing for the big screen in Generations, or did Burton just finally get sick of wearing it after eight years?

Burton had been working to get rid of the visor since at least season 2 (there's a couple of scenes with Pulaski establishing they could do it just in case the producers decided to agree), he hated not being able to use his eyes. Though you can see his normal pupils through it in at least one scene in Generations, so that may have factored into as well.

In fiction, the general assumption is the Klingons managing to put a bug on it leading to the destruction of the ship was the last straw after things like The Mind's Eye and Star Fleet told him to bloody well upgrade or get out.

The fact he could always be rendered helpless with a good slap to the face was always a bit of a design flaw anyway, especially with the number of intruders who made it to engineering and would start throwing him about.

I always though it was odd that, with the full range of special sight the visor gave him, the thing didn't have a setting for "Normal" sight as well. Even something as simple as a 1980's TV picture would probably be more useful than seeing the entire spectrum all the time.

I was also sort of confused with how he grew normal eyes in Insurrection, only to be back to the machine ones again in Nemesis. I'm not entirely sure why or how they would have "un-healed" themselves. Or, for that matter, why they couldn't have just cloned him working eyes in the first place. Or a new heart for Picard.

Did Geordi not have his normal eyes still in Nemesis? It says a lot about his role that I've never noticed they went back to the implants...

Warcry
2015-10-23, 09:19 PM
Blimey, I knew Picard was about a decade older than Stewart, but I didn't know Riker went the other way. Alaska must have some hard living if he was only in his twenties in season 1.
I was shocked when I found out how young Patrick Stewart was at the start of TNG. As a youngster I figured him for, like, sixty and the poor man wasn't even fifty yet. But then he didn't age a day for two decades, so I suppose he won out in the end.

I wonder if Data spent a lot of time on Aquiel style one or two man deep space assignments with a lot of monotonous routine? He'd seem suited to it and would explain his lack of social development, plus you never really hear anything about his prior crews ulike Picard, Riker and Geordi.
I could see him being suited for that, and crucially not trying to get out of that duty like a human officer would. But we're also told that he spend a lot of time on the Trieste when he was younger, so he wasn't entirely isolated the whole time.

Plus Picard, who was all "Holding Worf accountable for the crimes of his Dad is a dick move" is genuinely remorseful and feels responsibility. I always suspect Old Indian guy was just playing him.
Oh, he was definitely playing him. Picard usually wouldn't have been vulnerable to that sort of manipulation, but he was already so uncomfortable about forcing the colonists from their homes that he left himself uncharacteristically open to it.

Mind, them keeping the same basic shape and class designations doesn't mean there weren't drastic changes to the designs as they went along. An Enterprise B style Excelsior (and isn't it odd how we went all the way to the fourth season of DS9 without seeing one of those in the 24th century? Killing Kirk must have really put a dampener on enthusiasm for the extra fins) could hold its own against the only year and a bit old dedicated warship Defiant so it's presumably more modern than it looks.
You picked a perfect example to illustrate, actually -- the Lakota spent the time between dropping Sisko and Odo off at Earth and fighting the Defiant in drydock getting outfitted with new tactical systems (including quantum torpedoes). I'd imagine the Movie-vintage ships had gone through several cycles of upgrades over the decades, though the base hardware doesn't seem to have changed too much. The biggest changes we saw were the different weapons pods that the Miranda-class ships carried, nowhere near the complete teardown-and-rebuild that the first Enterprise got before the movie era (after, what, 25 years in service?).

Though both ships were pulling their punches in that battle, what with not wanting to murder their fellow officers, so it's hard to draw too much of a conclusion from it.

Is the Nebula not supposed to be an interim class as well? I know we don't see it until well into the run of TNG but the look of the one Data took over in Redemption made it feel like an older ship to me.
Well, looks-wise it definitely comes off as a contemporary to the Galaxy-class. The saucer, deflector and nacelles are all but identical. If it was meant to be an older design, those probably would have been patterned after the Enterprise-C instead. Bits of barely-seen info like the ships' dedication plaques also seem to indicate that they were built around the same time as their larger counterparts (notably, the one that Data commanded was apparently only built the year before, sinking my long-held "Picard's fleet were ships that were damaged at Wolf 359" theory).

It's especially impressive considering it took years to build the Enterprise D, Starfleet must have been really slacking.
You'd have to imagine that the smaller ships took a lot less time to build, though. They could probably slap a Defiant together in a couple months' time, build a new Intrepid-class inside a year, etc. The bigger ships would naturally take a bit longer. Notably, behind-the-scenes info at the time of First Contact said that the Enterprise-E had been under construction since before the TV show ended, under another name, and only had "Enterprise" slapped on at the last minute after they foolishly let Troi drive the old one.

(On a similar note, I hope Brazilians hadn't been lobbying Starfleet command to name a ship "Sao Paulo" for very long...)

Actually, all the new ships they built for the war probably goes a long way to explain the quick promotions for folks like Nog. Not only were they losing experienced officers in battle, but with so many new ships rolling off the lines they had to promote junior officers to fill all of the newly-available command positions.

Though what always breaks my immersion with that line of thought is the Enterprise crew. Starfleet's hippy "do what makes you happy" attitude towards promotions surely would have been put aside when the future of the Federation was at stake, so why didn't they forcibly promote Riker, Data and maybe Geordi as well into positions where their experience would have been more valuable? Riker should have been put into command of his own ship even if they had to staple him to the captain's chair to keep him there, and Data's android brain should have been put to use in the war office analysing Dominion fleet movements (La Forge, I'd imagine, would become Picard's XO in that scenario). I mean, shit, they had science officer Jadzia Dax commanding a warship, so obviously they were hard up for experienced hands.

Of course, by the time those other races started showing up the Ferengi backstory was well on the way to being retconned so they'd been around and known for years (I think there's even a Voyager episode with a line about them visiting Wall Street before the end of capitalism).
Yeah, it certainly got to seem like the Ferengi had known Hu-mons for a lot longer than humans knew them. Picard and co. didn't even know what they looked like!

It's a shame actually...as much as I love the comedy ultra-capitalist Ferengi that DS9 gave us, the idea of a powerful alien empire that the Federation only knew through rumour was an interesting one. Seeing Starfleet and the Ferengi expanding into the same regions of space, building towards a first contact confrontation that neither of them really wanted but both knew were inevitable, would have been cool.

You know, if the Ferengi had been treated with any respect at all by the writers. How much crack must Gene have been smoking to think they would have been taken seriously as an adversary?

Interesting, I'd always thought that was a producer choice to keep them in the tighter one-piece uniform throughout.
That's what I would have thought, but no, from what I read it was the ladies' choice.

It might be that was the closest "Hero" uniform they had, the extras costumes are often less detailed/well made (though it'd be hard to do that with DS9 jumpsuit). If only they hadn't wasted money making a load of new uniforms they never used.
Did they ever say why they didn't use them? I'm actually quite fond of that look...they're like a blending of the TNG and TWOK designs. They're more "dress uniform" than "everyday attire", but it would have been nice to see them at some point.

The uniform thing in Generations is really odd. Defenders say that Star Fleet has two uniform types and wearing both on the same ship makes sense and is more like real navies. Which is fine, but completely at odds with the rest of Trek where everyone on the same ship wears the same uniform at all times.

it actually looks like they're in the middle of changing over to the new regular uniform (something backed up by Voayger using it. Was DS9 trying out the look before it was rolled out fleetwide? Mind, DS9 continued to use the TNG outfits for "Not We" officers) and everyone doesn't quite manage to start wearing it on the same day.
I always figured that the TNG outfit was Starfleet's more formal variant, while the DS9 one was the "hard work, roll up your sleeves" attire. We do see something like that in the TOS films and early TNG, I think, with engineering crews sometimes wearing what looks like a futuristic utility jumpsuit. I figured that the DS9 crew just wore the more relaxed outfit all the time because they were out on the frontier and nobody cared. But Picard and co. were the super-important flagship constantly meeting new people and acting as a diplomatic face for the Federation, and the captain probably didn't want them doing that in their pajamas.

Burton had been working to get rid of the visor since at least season 2 (there's a couple of scenes with Pulaski establishing they could do it just in case the producers decided to agree), he hated not being able to use his eyes. Though you can see his normal pupils through it in at least one scene in Generations, so that may have factored into as well.
Yeah, the thing looked ridiculously uncomfortable and apparently caused some pretty serious headaches too, so I'm not surprised the actor wanted to get rid of it. And as cool as it looked, it was the farthest from "high-tech" considering Data has fully-functional artificial eyes that actually look like eyes.

The fact he could always be rendered helpless with a good slap to the face was always a bit of a design flaw anyway, especially with the number of intruders who made it to engineering and would start throwing him about.
I always figured he should have had the thing on a lanyard attached to his uniform, or something. All the times that he patted around for it on the ground could easily have been avoided.

I always though it was odd that, with the full range of special sight the visor gave him, the thing didn't have a setting for "Normal" sight as well. Even something as simple as a 1980's TV picture would probably be more useful than seeing the entire spectrum all the time.
It's especially silly twenty years on, since we've got better vision prosthetics right now than they apparently will 300 years in the future (albeit still highly experimental).

Did Geordi not have his normal eyes still in Nemesis? It says a lot about his role that I've never noticed they went back to the implants...
I always thought he did, until I read a few books that said he didn't. Then I went back and looked at some screenshots, and it does indeed look like he's got the implants in Nemesis. According to Memory Alpha he knew that he'd loose his eyes again if they stopped the Son'a, but I don't remember anything at all like that in the movie itself and don't feel like dragging out my VCR from the basement and watching the movie on tape to find out.

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-10-24, 01:29 AM
Sta Trek: Enterprise-"Stigma" One of my problems with this series was Archer always trying to have the high moral ground with the Vulcans and usually failing miserably at it. Here he does have it. T'Pol has a rare disease that she got mind melding with a Vulcan from an earlier episode and in the Enterprise era mind melding is the more or less the Vulcan version of gay sex (also only a few Vulcans can actually do a mind meld). The disease T'Pol has can only be transmitted by mind melding and if Vulcan High Command finds out she has it she will be relieved of duty and be disgraced. Dr. Plox tries to find out if the Vulcans have any new treatments and the Vulcans aren't willing to talk. Eventually the Vulcans do find out and Archer goes to bat for T'Pol and give the Vulcans a much needed lecture about tolerance and getting over fear. The nice thing about this episode is that while T'Pol stays on the ship, the fear of mind melding isn't resolved and really nobody wins in this episode. I also like T'Pol admitting that she doesn't want sympathy from the Vulcans because some thinks she's a "victim" (one could say she was mind raped by the Vulcan in the earlier episode) and that while she doesn't have the mind melding ablity she does stand up for them. I don't recall any Star Trek episode from any series dealing with this many subjects at one time.
Honorable mentions: "Judgement" and "First Flight"

Star Trek "City On The Edge of Forever" This is arguably the greatest episode of the original series. While navigating some waves in spacetime McCoy accidentally injects himself with a powerful drug that drives him nuts and escapes to a nearby planet Kirk, Spock, and a landing party beam down and subdue him temporarily Kirk and company meet the Guardian of Forever a being that can send them back in time. Kirk comes up with a daring plan go back in time and prevent the accident, unfortunately McCoy recovers and in his drugged out state jumps through the portal and changes history that wipes out the timeline leaving only Kirk, Spock, and the landing party as the only ones left to fix the timeline. So Kirk and Spock go back through time near where McCoy jumped and find themselves in the late 1920s. They find lodgings at a shelter ran by a woman named Edith Keeler (played by Joan Collins) who dreams and talks of a future similar to one where Kirk, Spock, and McCoy all come from. While Kirk woos Edith, she also finds the drug crazed McCoy and nurses him back to health. Of course Kirk falls in love with her and Spock builds a primitive computer to get readings out of his Tricorder and learns of two futures for Edith one where she dies and one where she lives, meets FDR and convinces him not to enter WWII and the Nazis gets the A-Bomb before America does. To put history back on track Edith has die. When Edith reveals to Kirk that she's been taking care of McCoy and the two friends reunite Edith crosses the street to join them and is hit by a truck, while Kirk holds McCoy back. The trio return to the future and find everything is back on track. One of the most dramatic and funniest episodes of Shatner and Collins have great chemistry and you really do believe that Kirk would fall for her. Some of the humor of Kirk trying to tell a cop about Spock's ears and Spock complaining about building a computer out sticks and stones are still funny.
Honorable mentions: "Bread and Circuses" and "The Trouble With Tribbles"

Star Trek: The Next Generation "Best of Both Worlds parts 1 and 2" The Borg make their first real attack against the Federation and Captain Picard is captured and turned into the Borg known as Locutus, and Field Captain Riker has to stop his Captain, mentor, and friend at any cost while dealing with an ambitious young Commander who wants his job. This has to be the greatest cliffhanger in the history of the franchise and while the Borg drones and sets here don't look as scary and/or impressive as they would later on in Star Trek: First Contact and Star Trek: Voyager, the makeup on Patrick Stewart as Locutus is still looks impressive. This is two-parter changed the franchise in so many ways The Battle at Wolf 359 would be a huge part of Sisko's life in DS9, it made the Borg a dangerous foe that would haunt the series for years to come. It showed that Picard had a dark side to his nature. And more importantly it showed that Star Trek: The Next Generation had finally come into it's own as a series. All the cast gave 200% in these two episodes.
Honorable mentions: "The Inner Light" and "Time's Arrow parts 1 and 2"

Star Trek: Deep Space Nine-"The Visitor" For me personally this is the greatest episode of any show of all time. It's been since I first saw it and it still is. Captain Sisko takes his son and the crew on the USS Defiant to see the wormhole do something it only does every 50 years when an energy discharge damages the ship and the Siskos' attempt to save the ship blows Captain Sisko in a pocket dimension and leaves everyone thinking he's dead. His son Jake in his late 20s/early 30s played brilliantly by Tony Todd finds out the truth and devotes the rest of his life to save his father ending when old Jake dies in the future this sends Ben back in time and this time around he stops the accident from happening. This is one of those episodes that hits me like a sledgehammer to face because my mother died and as a result I'm very close to my father and losing him is a constant fear and I like the nice change of the child dying to save a parent. This is Tony Todd's best performance in the Star Trek franchise (he played Worf's brother, an alien hunter on Voyager among others). Cirroc Lofton who was the series regular who played Jake Sisko gives a great performance in his own right.
Honorable mentions: "Trials and Tribb-lations" and "What You Leave Behind parts 1 and 2"

Star Trek: Voyager-"Living Witness" The Doctor is activated on alien world 700 years in the future and finds that the two races that live on this world have a dark view of the crew of Voyager. Janeway's a cruel cold hearted bitch, Chakotay and Kim beat prisoners, and the Doctor is an android that coldly comments war crimes and Seven is Borg drone with her own attack squad under Janeway's command. As the Doctor tells the historian that reactivated him the truth and he begins to see that his entire history might be wrong, but before they can attempt to change the minds of the people on this world simmering racial tensions between the two races boil over into a race riot and the Doctor begs the historian to deactivate him for good and the historian refuses and they both begin to look for the medical tricorder that can prove the Doctor's word. Then hundreds of years later a group of both alien races learn that after the riots the two races began to work out their differences in peace with the Doctor's help and this ushered in a peace of happiness for both of the alien races after spending some time there as the head of their medical unit, the Doctor left to find out the fate of Voyager and see if his friends ever made back it home. This is the closest that Star Trek: Voyager ever did to a "Mirror Universe" story and I have to say "evil" Janeway looked hot with her short hair. I also loved the twist at the end. Including that the Doctor on the alien world was a back-up of his program (or they had a back-up on the ship so either way Robert Picardo wasn't leaving the show). The idea of showing Voyager's effect on the Delta Quadrant in the far future was a cool idea and to me the ending of this episode sums up perfectly what Star Trek is all about.
Honorable mentions: "Infinite Regress" and "Future's End parts 1 and 2"

inflatable dalek
2015-10-25, 05:58 AM
Will have to have a think on favourite episodes.

I was shocked when I found out how young Patrick Stewart was at the start of TNG. As a youngster I figured him for, like, sixty and the poor man wasn't even fifty yet. But then he didn't age a day for two decades, so I suppose he won out in the end.

He basically still looks the same now, it's just the way he moves and talks in a much slower (and by the sound of it, denchers) way that gives away the fact he's well into his 70's. It's much the same way that Christopher Lloyd, though looking surprisingly like old Doc Brown when he had the wig on, is clearly much more of a dodgery and forgetful old man than he ever played the character in that Jimmy Kimmel sketch from the middle of the week.



Oh, he was definitely playing him. Picard usually wouldn't have been vulnerable to that sort of manipulation, but he was already so uncomfortable about forcing the colonists from their homes that he left himself uncharacteristically open to it.

Of course, Picard does have an intense sense of family pride (if he can trace his family back to Trafalgar--though why that would be something to be proud of for a French family I've no idea, you'd think the writers' thought he was English--an extra 100 years doesn't mean much), which makes the fact he's hearing about this for the first time and is surprised by it even funnier.



Well, looks-wise it definitely comes off as a contemporary to the Galaxy-class. The saucer, deflector and nacelles are all but identical. If it was meant to be an older design, those probably would have been patterned after the Enterprise-C instead. Bits of barely-seen info like the ships' dedication plaques also seem to indicate that they were built around the same time as their larger counterparts (notably, the one that Data commanded was apparently only built the year before, sinking my long-held "Picard's fleet were ships that were damaged at Wolf 359" theory).

Get you, paying attention to dedication plaques. You nerd.

Modern navy carriers can have a long period of service, the real Enterprise as featured in Star Trek IV was on active duty for 50 years so super advanced starships managing another 30 isn't so far fetched.

I do wonder what happened to the Constitution Class, they're the work horse of Star Fleet during the original series (there's not even a hint of them having another type of large ship), yet they almost completely vanish from the films onwards. The Enterprise herself is only twenty (though if Space Seed was 15 years earlier and The Cage 11 before that it's closer to 30 despite what Admiral man says) when they retire her, which seems positively young for a Federation ship and comes only a few years after a major and expensive refit.

Whilst they'd be pushing it to survive into the TNG era (though even when they were filming The Battle, The Stargazer was going to be one. It's a "Constellation" class because that matched the mouth movement when they redubbed after deciding to kitbash a new ship) you think there'd at least be a lot hanging around Space Dock in the films.


and only had "Enterprise" slapped on at the last minute after they foolishly let Troi drive the old one.

I don't see what was foolish about letting Troi fly. It's not as if there's lots of scared and terrified civillians and children on the saucer section who could do with her help right there and then. And it's not as if the single best pilot on the ship is sat in the captain's chair just a few feet behind her and could easily have just jumped into the seat himself.

(On a similar note, I hope Brazilians hadn't been lobbying Starfleet command to name a ship "Sao Paulo" for very long...)

As powerful as the destruction of the original Defiant was, it's instant replacement with an identical ship (even down to the registration number! Speaking of which, I'd be willing to let the silliness of the "Add a letter to the end of 1701 for each new Enterprise" pass despite it making no sense for any logical registry system if not for the fact the Yamato--and only the first time we saw her--was the only other Federation ship we ever saw do the same despite the constant reuse of ship names) was a pretty bad fumbled moment.

Along with the Breen basically adding nothing to the final arc beyond a new gun either the Cardassians or Dominion could have developed themselves (all those hints and mysteries basically come to nothing. All they contribute is pissing of Damar).

Oh, and the way the two plots of What You Leave Behind don't connect to each other at all so you have oddities like the fact Winn would have to be standing of Dukat's dead body chanting for days whilst she's waiting for the war plot to end.



Yeah, it certainly got to seem like the Ferengi had known Hu-mons for a lot longer than humans knew them. Picard and co. didn't even know what they looked like!

Oddly as contrived and desperate as it was (say no names!), I quite enjoyed the Ferengi episode of Enterprise. I mean, it made Archer look even more of an idiot than usual, but it was fun.

I actually really liked the Borg episode as well. It did something similar to what Doctor Who would do with Daleks when it came back a few years later, restoring the power and threat to a much diminished enemy by just showing how dangerous and scary just a couple (or one in the Dalek case) can be. The fact they quickly assimilate their way up to having a ship nearly the equal of the NX01 and very clearly would have surpassed it if they'd have just a little more time gives them a lot of their teeth back.

It's a shame actually...as much as I love the comedy ultra-capitalist Ferengi that DS9 gave us, the idea of a powerful alien empire that the Federation only knew through rumour was an interesting one. Seeing Starfleet and the Ferengi expanding into the same regions of space, building towards a first contact confrontation that neither of them really wanted but both knew were inevitable, would have been cool.

That's basically what they did again, much more successfully, with the Dominion isn't it? Their pressence is built up slowly over season 2 (amusingly starting with a comedy Ferengi episode).

You know, if the Ferengi had been treated with any respect at all by the writers. How much crack must Gene have been smoking to think they would have been taken seriously as an adversary?

Wasn't he keen on the Ferengi having massive cocks? Says it all really.



Did they ever say why they didn't use them? I'm actually quite fond of that look...they're like a blending of the TNG and TWOK designs. They're more "dress uniform" than "everyday attire", but it would have been nice to see them at some point.

Officially because they thought entirely new uniforms would have been one new thing too many for viewers to cope with. Though I suspect that's just a polite way of avoiding saying "We thought they were awful".

They do seem to have been very worried that the TV uniforms wouldn't stand up on the cinema screen (and you can see the zip in the back a lot more often in HD. Though as they obviously join up on the back anyway even when you can't see the zip I've often wondered how the characters were supposed to put them on without help), much as there was with the sets.

Though I actually really like the lighting in Generations, it's not as ridiculously dark as people say (the bridge isn't as brightly lit as the TV show but equally it's not so dim you can't see what's going on), the really dark sets tend to have a reason (Picard's got the lights off in his ready room and quarters because he's in a sad broody mood) and it's the only part of the film that actually feels like a film.

Though the Enterprise D being so well lit in the space shots does make the odd reuse of a flyby from Encounter At Farpoint stand out all the more.



It's especially silly twenty years on, since we've got better vision prosthetics right now than they apparently will 300 years in the future (albeit still highly experimental).

It's the same with Captain Pike, Stephen Hawking can go on chatshows, Pike has a lightbulb.


I always thought he did, until I read a few books that said he didn't. Then I went back and looked at some screenshots, and it does indeed look like he's got the implants in Nemesis. According to Memory Alpha he knew that he'd loose his eyes again if they stopped the Son'a, but I don't remember anything at all like that in the movie itself and don't feel like dragging out my VCR from the basement and watching the movie on tape to find out.

Wow, that's amazing, I guess Burton must not get a good close up in the whole film then as I've never noticed that. Which is quite poor for a film that is forced to be shot in a lot of tight close ups because they sets aren't big enough to put the camera too far back (it's fun on one of the making of bits on the blu ray to see them trying to force all the panels that make up the walls of the engineering set into the much smaller studio space than the previous two films enjoyed).

Tetsuro
2015-10-25, 06:29 AM
According to Memory Alpha he knew that he'd loose his eyes again if they stopped the Son'a, but I don't remember anything at all like that in the movie itself and don't feel like dragging out my VCR from the basement and watching the movie on tape to find out.
Maybe it's just because I'm such a massive nerd (or the fact that Insurrection must've been like the only Trek movie besides Generations I ever had on VHS), but I definitely remember Geordi remarking something about not being able to enjoy his ability to see with what's happening to the Baku at the same time.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-25, 06:37 AM
Yeah, he does say "How could I enjoy another sunset if it was at the cost of making these rich white squatters not be able to be arseholes?", but I took it to mean he'd just feel really bad rather than literally never being able to enjoy another sunset.

Maybe he had one of those "Oh no, Professor X is back in a wheelchair!" accidents between films?

Tetsuro
2015-10-25, 08:51 AM
but I took it to mean he'd just feel really bad rather than literally never being able to enjoy another sunset.
So did I, but then, Nemesis couldn't even be bothered to remember that Picard hadn't always been bald either.

Warcry
2015-10-25, 04:13 PM
Favourite episodes, huh? Okay, I'll play. :)

I haven't seen TOS in it's entirety in ages, so it's entirely possible I'm forgetting something. But out of the episodes I actually remember my favourite would have to be The Galileo Seven. It's one of the best Spock episodes out there, and Spock is easily my favourite from the show. I also love that we actually got to know a few of the redshirts a bit. The plot on the planet's surface with the funny aliens, along with Spock's struggles to deal with the situation logically, have always made this one super-memorable to me.

The Tholian Web is also really stuck in my head, but I don't think I've actually seen it since I was little so it might actually be terrible (I used to love The Arena when I was little but could barely get through it a couple years ago).

From TNG, there are so many episodes that I love, but paridoxically it's an easy choice. As much as I love episodes like Yesterday's Enterprise, The Best of Both Worlds, Family, The Wounded, Darmok, Chain of Command, Face of the Enemy, The Pegasus, Lower Decks, etc., I don't think any of them quite stand up to The Measure Of A Man. On top of all the philosophical questions about "personhood" that it grapples with (which are super-important in and of themselves), the episode also manages to be the first really good vehicle for Picard the man (as opposed to Picard the steely captain). When I rewatch the series this is always the episode where my opinion of Picard switches from "one dimensional pompous stiff" to "fatherly leader", as I watch him get angrier and angrier over a bigot who's trying to essentially vivisect a member of his family. His reunion with Louvois also helps quite a bit with making him feel like a real person.

Guinan's short scene with Picard is just about the best thing to happen all season, too. I always forget how vital she was to the show's best years until I rewatch an episode with her in it.

Although DS9 is my favourite series, honestly nothing about the show before The Jem'Hadar is memorable to me in the slightest. After that, though, I've got so many favourites it's hard to pick. In general I think the Dominion arc was handled wonderfully and I love a lot of episodes that dealt with it. The first is probably Improbable Cause/The Die Is Cast, which firmly cemented Garak as an important part of the series rather than an occasional guest star. These events were also the point of no return for the over-arching Dominion plot -- once this happened, you knew war was inevitable. In Purgatory's Shadow/By Inferno's Light was great too, introducing the real Martok and making Worf out to be even more badass than he'd ever managed through the whole run of TNG. Call to Arms was a huge shocker, and I remember being super stoked after seeing the closing shot of the huge Federation war fleet at the end. And then then first episode of season six were an even bigger shock, as it slowly sunk in that, no, the status quo wouldn't be restored by the end of the premiere. And then the whole run of episodes after that, up to Sacrifice of Angels, was one hit after another. In the Pale Moonlight is probably the best of the war episodes after that, though Siege of AR-558 was pretty powerful too. And then everything from Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges was intense enough that I nearly died of a heart attack as a kid.

But in spite of all that praise for the Dominion War, my favourite episodes don't really have anything to do with it. Homefront/Paradise Lost use changelings as an excuse, but the story is about something else entirely and it's one of those shows that seem to get more topical every year. It's a fantastic illustration of just how easy it is for a civilized nation to let fear take it to dark places, and I wish it was required viewing for anyone elected to government. But on top of the powerful message it carries it was also damned entertaining thanks to some fantastic acting that made Admiral Leyton, Jaresh-Inyo, Sisko's dad and even Captain Benteen highly memorable characters even though only one of them ever showed up again after this.

For the Uniform is also an enduring favourite, because it illustrates just how different Sisko is from all the other captains in the franchise. I also really like how the episode ends with Sisko saying that all his awful actions were just him "getting into character" to beat Eddington, but makes it clear at the same time that we shouldn't entirely believe that.

Voyager is also hard to choose from, though for different reasons. I was actually super-excited for the show when it started, but even though I was only ten or eleven when it premiered I was quickly disappointed by how the show didn't seem to live up to its premise (in particular I remember being super-excited by what Before and After seemed to promise, only for the later writers to pussy out, make it a two-parter and undo it afterwards). So while there was the occasional good episode scattered throughout the series -- Basics, Scorpion and The Killing Game all come to mind -- I actually think that the pilot, Caretaker, was as good as the series ever got. It set the show off on a very interesting direction, and it's just a shame that the rest of the series didn't follow it.

I'm not sure I can pick anything from Enterprise, though. Although I enjoyed the fourth season, nothing from it really stands out as all that good compared to the rest. Though the fact that I haven't watched it since it first aired probably contributes to that.

He basically still looks the same now, it's just the way he moves and talks in a much slower (and by the sound of it, denchers) way that gives away the fact he's well into his 70's. It's much the same way that Christopher Lloyd, though looking surprisingly like old Doc Brown when he had the wig on, is clearly much more of a dodgery and forgetful old man than he ever played the character in that Jimmy Kimmel sketch from the middle of the week.
He's notably got an old man's jawline and neck now, with some obvious saggy skin (just take a look at his main pic on Wikipedia) but it's amazing how little he's changed since 1987, I agree.

Of course, Picard does have an intense sense of family pride (if he can trace his family back to Trafalgar--though why that would be something to be proud of for a French family I've no idea, you'd think the writers' thought he was English--an extra 100 years doesn't mean much), which makes the fact he's hearing about this for the first time and is surprised by it even funnier.
Maybe by "the Picard who fought at Trafalgar" he meant that one of his uncles got into a fistfight there on vacation?

Get you, paying attention to dedication plaques. You nerd.
Well, to be perfectly honest I had to look it up.

I'm amazed they went to the trouble of making them up for all these one-shot guest ships, though. Nobody would have noticed if they hadn't bothered.

Modern navy carriers can have a long period of service, the real Enterprise as featured in Star Trek IV was on active duty for 50 years so super advanced starships managing another 30 isn't so far fetched.
That's fair enough, though an aircraft carrier isn't the best comparison -- its planes are what do all the fighting, and I'm sure the carrier Enterprise wasn't still flying F-4 Phantoms when they retired her in 2013. They'd be more akin to battleships and destroyers, which sometimes had lifespans that long but not very often.

I'm sure the spaceframes of ships like Lakota or Malinche or Hood were still perfectly serviceable, but considering the advancements that Starfleet made over the decade and a half run from TNG through the end of Voyager, you'd have to think that their basic systems were hopelessly obsolete.

I do wonder what happened to the Constitution Class, they're the work horse of Star Fleet during the original series (there's not even a hint of them having another type of large ship), yet they almost completely vanish from the films onwards. The Enterprise herself is only twenty (though if Space Seed was 15 years earlier and The Cage 11 before that it's closer to 30 despite what Admiral man says) when they retire her, which seems positively young for a Federation ship and comes only a few years after a major and expensive refit.
That admiral was full of it, just based on the TV show. Based on background info, even moreso. After all, Robert April commanded the Enterprise before Pike, and she was apparently first commissioned two decades before the TV show. So she was closer to 40 by the time Search for Spock came along.

As far as what happened to them goes...well, I think it made it into dialogue in the original series that they was only a dozen of them in service, like the background info says. And they lost Constellation, Defiant and Intrepid during the run of the series, as well as potentially Excalibur and Hood as well (depending on how severe the damage from the M5 fiasco was). Even if they built a few more (you'd have to imagine they did, since Enterprise-A was a thing), it seems like the attrition rate for the class was pretty high.

We do see one still in service during TNG, or at least the debris or one after the Borg blew it to bits at Wolf 359. And apparently the Republic that gets mentioned as an Academy training ship in 'Valiant' was the old Constitution class ship as well (I guess it would have to be, since it was so archaic that it hadn't left the solar system in fifty years).

As powerful as the destruction of the original Defiant was, it's instant replacement with an identical ship (even down to the registration number! Speaking of which, I'd be willing to let the silliness of the "Add a letter to the end of 1701 for each new Enterprise" pass despite it making no sense for any logical registry system if not for the fact the Yamato--and only the first time we saw her--was the only other Federation ship we ever saw do the same despite the constant reuse of ship names) was a pretty bad fumbled moment.
I think the new Defiant's registry number was supposed to be different, only they reused a bunch of CGI shots with the old ship's numbers and made things really confusing.

Can't disagree about the Enterprise's registry, either. By that logic the Hood, Excalibur, Defiant, Yorktown, Lexington, Farragut, Intrepid, etc. should all have had their TOS-era registry plus a letter. I mean, heck, by that logic the TOS Enterprise should have been "NX-01-A"...

Along with the Breen basically adding nothing to the final arc beyond a new gun either the Cardassians or Dominion could have developed themselves (all those hints and mysteries basically come to nothing. All they contribute is pissing of Damar).
Yeah, it's a shame that the Breen didn't show up a bit sooner so they could get a bit more development. All they really did was serve as a wedge between the Cardassians and the Dominion. It could have been the Pakleds or Yridians for all it mattered.

I did like the mysteries they wove about them but it was a shame we never saw them resolved (though obviously Kira knows what they look like since she stole one's clothes).

Oh, and the way the two plots of What You Leave Behind don't connect to each other at all so you have oddities like the fact Winn would have to be standing of Dukat's dead body chanting for days whilst she's waiting for the war plot to end.
That did sort of feel like an obligatory "oh shit, we'd better wrap up the Prophets arc too!" storyline, didn't it? It's also disappointing to see Winn go full-on evil instead of her usual brand of self-serving "what's best for me is best for Bajor" justifications.

I actually really liked the Borg episode as well. It did something similar to what Doctor Who would do with Daleks when it came back a few years later, restoring the power and threat to a much diminished enemy by just showing how dangerous and scary just a couple (or one in the Dalek case) can be. The fact they quickly assimilate their way up to having a ship nearly the equal of the NX01 and very clearly would have surpassed it if they'd have just a little more time gives them a lot of their teeth back.
Yeah, that was probably the first really good use of the Borg since the first Voyager episode that featured them. They make great once- or twice-a-show guest baddies, but seeing them defeated five or more times per season really stripped away all of their sense of menace.

That's basically what they did again, much more successfully, with the Dominion isn't it? Their pressence is built up slowly over season 2 (amusingly starting with a comedy Ferengi episode).
I dunno, I think they did too good a job of it in DS9 -- insofar as I didn't even realize they were doing it until I rewatched it again after the fact. I don't know how many people would have picked up on it the first time through.

Wasn't he keen on the Ferengi having massive cocks? Says it all really.
I've never heard that, but it says a lot about latter-day Roddenberry that I don't doubt it at all.

They do seem to have been very worried that the TV uniforms wouldn't stand up on the cinema screen (and you can see the zip in the back a lot more often in HD. Though as they obviously join up on the back anyway even when you can't see the zip I've often wondered how the characters were supposed to put them on without help), much as there was with the sets.
If I remember right, in-universe the jackets zip up the front using Magic Future Fasteners and we're just supposed to pretend the zippers aren't there.

So did I, but then, Nemesis couldn't even be bothered to remember that Picard hadn't always been bald either.
Yeah, I remember that line and took it the same way as you guys, like a "yeah this is great, but nobody else can have it because it belongs to the hippies" rather than "we gotta help the hippies even if it means I lose this". I mean, that's not how biology works. Eyes don't magically go away. If you have them you have them.

Tetsuro
2015-10-26, 05:13 PM
I know this should probably go to the toy forum, but why the hell hasn't there been a Voyager toy with pivoting nacelles since the Playmates one? You'd think Diamond Select or even Hot Wheels had tackled that one.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-26, 08:58 PM
OK, be amazed at my totally unpredictable favourite episodes!

TOS: City on the Edge of Forever. Insanely packed with plot, lots of great moments and a performance from Shatner that reminds you he actually is a proper actor.

TNG: Yesterday's Enterprise. Probably the best "Dark alternate timeline" story ever done, mainly because it's not about eye-patches and leather costumes but the actual impact on the regulars (Jonathan Frakes in particular is very good as a more argumentative and less trusting in his captain Riker). Plus lots of good world building, some great action and an episode that's a better movie than half the movies.

DS9: It'd probably be unfair to say Trials as that's not a "Proper" DS9 episode really is it?

Probably... A Call to Arms. Second best ever Trek end of season cliffhanger, lots of tension, great lines and a building sense of doom. Love the music as the Dominion board the station as well.

Films: Khan. Nuff said.

Animated: Yesteryear.

And that's my favourite episode from every iteration of Trek ever.


From TNG, there are so many episodes that I love, but paridoxically it's an easy choice. As much as I love episodes like Yesterday's Enterprise, The Best of Both Worlds, Family, The Wounded, Darmok, Chain of Command, Face of the Enemy, The Pegasus, Lower Decks, etc., I don't think any of them quite stand up to The Measure Of A Man. On top of all the philosophical questions about "personhood" that it grapples with (which are super-important in and of themselves), the episode also manages to be the first really good vehicle for Picard the man (as opposed to Picard the steely captain). When I rewatch the series this is always the episode where my opinion of Picard switches from "one dimensional pompous stiff" to "fatherly leader", as I watch him get angrier and angrier over a bigot who's trying to essentially vivisect a member of his family. His reunion with Louvois also helps quite a bit with making him feel like a real person.

It being written by a lawyer helps as well, I'm sure it likely doesn't stand up to genuine scrutiny (it ignores the obvious defence for Data--that Star Fleet accepted his sentience when they let him into the academy. Unless they're in the habit of giving positions to rocks. This was of course before Harry Kim would have signed up--for the drama) but it's clearly had a lot more thought put into than just about any other Trek court case. I especially love that there's an explanation for what is such an important case being handled in such a small way with Data's mates as defence and prosecution.

Compare that to, say, A Matter of Perspective. Where Picard is not only Riker's defendant but also the man who gets to decide if he's extradited or not and it end with them not actually proving Riker didn't commit the murder, just presenting an alternate theory of what happened (which wouldn't be enough under an "Guilty till proven innocent" system).

Plus it's genuinely creepy that, thanks to ever helpful Troi, we know the wife genuinely thinks Riker tried to rape her. Lucky for Billy boy that got swept under the carpet.



Maybe by "the Picard who fought at Trafalgar" he meant that one of his uncles got into a fistfight there on vacation?

based on how well Picard does in fist fights (he had to get an old fat Kirk to help him punch an even older man) the Uncle probably lost as well.



I'm amazed they went to the trouble of making them up for all these one-shot guest ships, though. Nobody would have noticed if they hadn't bothered.

That's the Okuda's for you. Crazy obsessed with detail.



That admiral was full of it, just based on the TV show. Based on background info, even moreso. After all, Robert April commanded the Enterprise before Pike, and she was apparently first commissioned two decades before the TV show. So she was closer to 40 by the time Search for Spock came along.

Of course April is canon, he was in the Animated series wasn't he?

As far as what happened to them goes...well, I think it made it into dialogue in the original series that they was only a dozen of them in service, like the background info says. And they lost Constellation, Defiant and Intrepid during the run of the series, as well as potentially Excalibur and Hood as well (depending on how severe the damage from the M5 fiasco was). Even if they built a few more (you'd have to imagine they did, since Enterprise-A was a thing), it seems like the attrition rate for the class was pretty high.

The Galaxy Class seems similarly accident prone, Star Fleet lost at least three in eight years (and the Enterprise was the only one to manage a saucer separation. So much for that "Keep the civilians safe" feature. I hope the Odyssey at least left the kids back on DS9...), plus at least a couple during the war.

It reminds me of a great bit in the insane Shatner Novel The Return (you know, the one where Kirk can beat Data and Worf in one on one combat, use a holodeck better than Picard and kills all the Borg at the end by himself) where the Romulan villains are talking about what might have happened to Picard after the Enterprise's destruction and one snarks "Star Fleet probably apologies for giving him a substandard ship".

Which is basically what did happen really. "Here, have a new one!".


I think the new Defiant's registry number was supposed to be different, only they reused a bunch of CGI shots with the old ship's numbers and made things really confusing.

Yeah, apparently they wanted a whole new ship (well, exterior anyway, I assume the bridge would have been a redress) but the need to reuse stock shots made for some serious scaling back of ideas.

Can't disagree about the Enterprise's registry, either. By that logic the Hood, Excalibur, Defiant, Yorktown, Lexington, Farragut, Intrepid, etc. should all have had their TOS-era registry plus a letter. I mean, heck, by that logic the TOS Enterprise should have been "NX-01-A"...

Ah, but Archer's Enterprise was an Earth Star Fleet ship, not a Federation Star Fleet ship, so it's not part of the same service and thus not included in the registry thing.

Seriously, that's the reason people trot out for the NX-01 never, ever being mentioned in any of the subsequent shows.


I did like the mysteries they wove about them but it was a shame we never saw them resolved (though obviously Kira knows what they look like since she stole one's clothes).

She did it twice as well! Though someone on another forum suggested she just stole some clothes from the Breen laundrette.



I've never heard that, but it says a lot about latter-day Roddenberry that I don't doubt it at all.

There's that story Ira Steven Behr tells about writing Captain's Holiday, where he went into meet Roddenberry and Gene just focused on Risa and how that should be represented with everyone naked and hugging and kissing in both heterosexual and gay couple in a great big planet wide orgy.

Behr comes out the office, sees Berman and repeats what he's just been told. Berman tells him "Ignore all that, just get Picard laid".


If I remember right, in-universe the jackets zip up the front using Magic Future Fasteners and we're just supposed to pretend the zippers aren't there.

That does make how notable that seem up the back is a bit of a design flaw then.


I know this should probably go to the toy forum, but why the hell hasn't there been a Voyager toy with pivoting nacelles since the Playmates one? You'd think Diamond Select or even Hot Wheels had tackled that one.

Just buy a toilet seat and stick some wings onto it.

Tetsuro
2015-10-27, 03:27 PM
Just buy a toilet seat and stick some wings onto it.
If that's a diss on the intrepid class, dem's fightin' words mister.

For some reason I kept recalling the scene in DS9 where the high ranking member of the Bajoran religious order hangs herself in the Promenade happens at the first season finale, so I watched the whole episode wondering when it happens, only for it not to.

...it happened during the Dominion occupation of the station, didn't it?

Warcry
2015-10-27, 08:42 PM
I know this should probably go to the toy forum, but why the hell hasn't there been a Voyager toy with pivoting nacelles since the Playmates one? You'd think Diamond Select or even Hot Wheels had tackled that one.
There's a notable lack of good Star Trek ship toys out there in general, right now. Which is a shame because I'd love to grab a few. The stickers have all peeled off of my explodey Generations Enterprise-D and I don't think the electronics work anymore either. I've also lost most of my old model kits to the ravages of time and yellowing. :(

TNG: Yesterday's Enterprise. Probably the best "Dark alternate timeline" story ever done, mainly because it's not about eye-patches and leather costumes but the actual impact on the regulars (Jonathan Frakes in particular is very good as a more argumentative and less trusting in his captain Riker). Plus lots of good world building, some great action and an episode that's a better movie than half the movies.
Although I love that episode to bits, I can't bring myself to say it's my favourite because there are so many little places where it could have been better. The darker take on the main cast was interesting, as was the starker wartime Enterprise (though I find it hard to believe that the Galaxy-class would have even gotten drawn up in a Federation that had been at the edge of war for decades). I even enjoy seeing Yar again, and in spite of the flak that the actress gets I think she does great here. I just don't think a single episode is enough space for the concept to breathe properly. Your "movie" analogy is great because I think this story would have been fantastic if it had had the extra 40 minutes or so to go more in depth and show how different the crew's lives were from the versions that we knew. We got to see a lot of Picard, Riker and Yar, but how different are Data, Geordi, Beverly and Wesley in this timeline? Where are Troi and Worf (it really was a shame that he wasn't in command of the Klingon ships that attacked at the end of the episode)?

DS9: It'd probably be unfair to say Trials as that's not a "Proper" DS9 episode really is it?
Not really, though it was amazing and I love every second of it.

I wonder if the green-screening they did holds up in HD.

It being written by a lawyer helps as well, I'm sure it likely doesn't stand up to genuine scrutiny (it ignores the obvious defence for Data--that Star Fleet accepted his sentience when they let him into the academy. Unless they're in the habit of giving positions to rocks. This was of course before Harry Kim would have signed up--for the drama)
Well, the Horta did join the Federation eventually, so I suppose they would have to allow rocks in. Though I'm not sure how they'd fit one in the uniform...

You're totally right that it should be a non-issue by then, because as soon as Starfleet accepted his application they tacitly accepted his personhood. Not to mention the fact that you'd presumably have to have your paperwork in order just to apply (the show never touches on 24th-century immigration policy but I can't imagine you can join Starfleet unless you're a citizen or an otherwise-legal resident of a Federation holding like Nog was), which means that Data should have tons of civilian paperwork to back up his argument too. Given that he was "born" on a Federation colony, you'd think the question would be pretty clear-cut. Because either he's a Federation citizen or he's a toaster, and even if he hadn't joined Starfleet how the heck could he live two decades without that being settled? As soon as he applied for an ID card or drivers' license the question would have needed to be answered.

But on its own merits the episode is powerful enough that I don't care about the logic or lack thereof in its' backstory.

Compare that to, say, A Matter of Perspective. Where Picard is not only Riker's defendant but also the man who gets to decide if he's extradited or not and it end with them not actually proving Riker didn't commit the murder, just presenting an alternate theory of what happened (which wouldn't be enough under an "Guilty till proven innocent" system).
I love any episode that uses the holodeck for something beyond childish wish-fulfillment, but even seeing it used in a criminal investigation doesn't make up for the silliness of the premise. To be honest I got the feeling that the whole thing was a bit of a show anyway, because there's no way that Picard was going to hand over his first officer and he'd shown in the past how willing he was to break alien laws to protect his crew when push comes to shove.

Plus it's genuinely creepy that, thanks to ever helpful Troi, we know the wife genuinely thinks Riker tried to rape her. Lucky for Billy boy that got swept under the carpet.
That was truly silly. If this was a different story and the defendant wasn't a main cast member that would have been an effective way to confuse the audience, but what they showed was just so absurdly removed from anything we'd ever seen from Riker. I mean, shit, a big part of Violations was build on the idea that he'd never do something like that. If the story had been "Riker tried to seduce a married man's wife a bit too aggressively", I think people would have bought it as a possibility. Because he totally seems the type to try and revenge-bone the wife of someone who's treating him like garbage. But what they actually did was a step too far to be credible.

Rashomon-style stories only work when all of the possible truths on display are equally credible and self-serving, and TNG's attempt fell flat on it's face by making the wife's and assistant's stories so transparently unbelievable while Riker's seemed like a perfectly normal episode of TNG by comparison.

Of course April is canon, he was in the Animated series wasn't he?
If you say so. I've never had the opportunity to watch TAS. :(

The Galaxy Class seems similarly accident prone, Star Fleet lost at least three in eight years (and the Enterprise was the only one to manage a saucer separation. So much for that "Keep the civilians safe" feature. I hope the Odyssey at least left the kids back on DS9...), plus at least a couple during the war.
I'm pretty sure they made sure to mention that Odyssey off-loaded their civilians before going through the wormhole, yeah.

Actually, I think the Galaxy-class fares even worse than the Constitutions in that every single one of them to have an important on-screen role wound up destroyed. The crews of Galaxy, Venture and Challenger probably prayed every day that their captains would never get introduced to Sisko or Picard. Not a good start for a class whose ships were supposed to last 100 years. And it's even worse if you believe the background info that says that they only ever built six of them before the war started...

Yeah, apparently they wanted a whole new ship (well, exterior anyway, I assume the bridge would have been a redress) but the need to reuse stock shots made for some serious scaling back of ideas.
The reused CGI shots in the last few episodes of the show really did hurt the attempt to portray it as an epic finale. :( I guess the budget got axed once they decided it was going to be the end of the line?

Ah, but Archer's Enterprise was an Earth Star Fleet ship, not a Federation Star Fleet ship, so it's not part of the same service and thus not included in the registry thing.

Seriously, that's the reason people trot out for the NX-01 never, ever being mentioned in any of the subsequent shows.
I don't mind the ship not being mentioned, since it was only in service for a few years. I mean, it's not as if they mentioned the Enterprise-B or C outside of the single shows they appeared in. But you'd think Archer himself would have been. Making first contact with dozens of species and becoming president of the Federation should be at least worth a name-drop...

I do think that the fans of the show place a lot more weight on the name "Enterprise" than most people would in-universe. Kirk's ship wasn't treated as anything special at the time, and though he and Spock were definitely famous for their exploits later on, there's nothing on-screen to indicate that there weren't a dozen other, equally-legendary officers from their day. And certainly the ships commanded by Harriman and Garrett didn't seem to be anything special from the snippets we saw. And even the Enterprise-D got more respect for being the "flagship" (whatever that nebulous, inaccurately-applied term even meant) than it did for the name on the hull.

The TNG crew don't seem to have earned the same sort of acclaim as the TOS gang did for their exploits, either. I suppose that's partly due to how much bigger Starfleet is in Picard's day than Kirk's. They built 72,000 ships between Excelsior and Defiant and don't seem to have retired many of them, since we frequently see Excelsior and Miranda-class ships in TNG and DS9 with registries in the 10,000s. We even occasionally see a few below that (I think the Repulse with its' NCC-2544 is the oldest ship we see in TNG).

If that's a diss on the intrepid class, dem's fightin' words mister.
Yeah, I tend to prefer older-style vessels like the Reliant or Excelsior or Enterprise-C, but Voyager was a damned pretty ship. It's easily my favourite of the "modern" designs that debuted in DS9, Voyager and the TNG films.

Even if I've never quite understood what the tilting warp engines were supposed to accomplish.

For some reason I kept recalling the scene in DS9 where the high ranking member of the Bajoran religious order hangs herself in the Promenade happens at the first season finale, so I watched the whole episode wondering when it happens, only for it not to.

...it happened during the Dominion occupation of the station, didn't it?
Yeah, that was during the Dominion arc (and one of its more memorable moments).

Speaking of DS9, I've noticed recently that Terry Ferrell gets a lot of flak and I can't quite figure out why. Dax sucked in the first two seasons but I'd put that more on the writers (who seemed to have no idea what to do with her) than the acting. She could be a bit wooden at first but by the time the middle seasons rolled around and the character had grown a personality, I thought she was fine. Not exceptional, but no worse than half the TNG cast.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-27, 09:07 PM
If that's a diss on the intrepid class, dem's fightin' words mister.


It's more of a dis on toilet seats.

There's a notable lack of good Star Trek ship toys out there in general, right now. Which is a shame because I'd love to grab a few. The stickers have all peeled off of my explodey Generations Enterprise-D and I don't think the electronics work anymore either. I've also lost most of my old model kits to the ravages of time and yellowing. :(

I keep seeing a nice three pack set of the 1701, refit and B in Forbidden Planet and am so tempted. But even though it says it's a simple kit, I suspect I'll still bugger it up.


Wesley

Especially considering he's a proper officer in this timeline, Star Fleet is drafting children. That's dark.

Agreed the D really shouldn't look like that, but I suppose that's a conceit you need to make (along with them all serving on the same ship despite the drastically different history) as they were never going to build all new sets and models for just one episode.

Worf (it really was a shame that he wasn't in command of the Klingon ships that attacked at the end of the episode)?

I'm really glad they didn't go down that obvious parallel Universe EVIL regular route myself. Especially considering how... large Dorn played basically the same thing in DS9 (where he's basically playing 50 Shades of Grey with Garak).



I wonder if the green-screening they did holds up in HD.

The upscale on the TOS set looks fine, even if it's not up to the same level as the full TNG remasters.

I do wish they'd edited out the "I'm going to have sex with you later" look Kirk gives Sisko though.



You're totally right that it should be a non-issue by then, because as soon as Starfleet accepted his application they tacitly accepted his personhood. Not to mention the fact that you'd presumably have to have your paperwork in order just to apply (the show never touches on 24th-century immigration policy but I can't imagine you can join Starfleet unless you're a citizen or an otherwise-legal resident of a Federation holding like Nog was), which means that Data should have tons of civilian paperwork to back up his argument too. Given that he was "born" on a Federation colony, you'd think the question would be pretty clear-cut. Because either he's a Federation citizen or he's a toaster, and even if he hadn't joined Starfleet how the heck could he live two decades without that being settled? As soon as he applied for an ID card or drivers' license the question would have needed to be answered.

Plus, even if he is property, how do Star Fleet own him? Finders keepers? Is there no Soong estate that would have a better claim?

Plus, even if Soong was an ahead of his time genius, Data is over twenty years old at this point. Shouldn't a lot of the technology in him be badly antiquated, or at least easily replicatable, by now? Even if he's constantly been doing software/hardware updates that suggests contemporary Federation tech should be able to match him.

But as you say, who cares?


I love any episode that uses the holodeck for something beyond childish wish-fulfillment, but even seeing it used in a criminal investigation doesn't make up for the silliness of the premise. To be honest I got the feeling that the whole thing was a bit of a show anyway, because there's no way that Picard was going to hand over his first officer and he'd shown in the past how willing he was to break alien laws to protect his crew when push comes to shove.

I really liked that episode as a kid because the different perspectives thing seemed very novel, but yeah, the execution really doesn't stand up.



Rashomon-style stories only work when all of the possible truths on display are equally credible and self-serving, and TNG's attempt fell flat on it's face by making the wife's and assistant's stories so transparently unbelievable while Riker's seemed like a perfectly normal episode of TNG by comparison.

It can work if it's a broad comedy (The X-Files episode Bad Blood is hilarious with Mulder and Scully's drastically different versions of what happened. Though it still has something sweet to say about the characters and how they interact as well), but the differences being so big is as you say just too silly to work as drama. And Riker's made it this long without having noticed different people remember events differently? He needs Troi to explain that to him?

He's probably been too busy with the raping thing to pay attention to human behaviour.



Actually, I think the Galaxy-class fares even worse than the Constitutions in that every single one of them to have an important on-screen role wound up destroyed. The crews of Galaxy, Venture and Challenger probably prayed every day that their captains would never get introduced to Sisko or Picard. Not a good start for a class whose ships were supposed to last 100 years. And it's even worse if you believe the background info that says that they only ever built six of them before the war started...

It is a slightly lazy "This shit just got real" plot device isn't it? Especially in The Jem Hadar where they even cast a Picard looking actor as the captain.

At least when they did it in the original series it was because they didn't have the budget for new ships (I love how all their registry numbers are 1701 mucked about with on the AMT kit).



I don't mind the ship not being mentioned, since it was only in service for a few years. I mean, it's not as if they mentioned the Enterprise-B or C outside of the single shows they appeared in. But you'd think Archer himself would have been. Making first contact with dozens of species and becoming president of the Federation should be at least worth a name-drop...

Well, they did retcon it so a planet called Archer from TNG was named after him.

As for the B and C, they were models in the observation lounge for five years, "No bloody A, B, C or D", "This is the fifth vessel to hold the name..." and so on. Archer must have done something awful at some point (the NX-O1 is in service for ten years as well and actually manages to retire in tact. That's more than most of the others).

I was always surprised when they did the Directors Cut of the first film they didn't CGI Archer's ship in place of that other spaceship in the rec deck.

I do think that the fans of the show place a lot more weight on the name "Enterprise" than most people would in-universe. Kirk's ship wasn't treated as anything special at the time, and though he and Spock were definitely famous for their exploits later on, there's nothing on-screen to indicate that there weren't a dozen other, equally-legendary officers from their day. And certainly the ships commanded by Harriman and Garrett didn't seem to be anything special from the snippets we saw. And even the Enterprise-D got more respect for being the "flagship" (whatever that nebulous, inaccurately-applied term even meant) than it did for the name on the hull.

I always quite liked how Riker doesn't quite remember the plot of The Naked Time, it's something he read in school once and stuck in his mind as a silly image but it's not more than that. Which is of course how most of Kirk's day to day stuff would be remembered (I assume the fact he discovered time travel the same day is still a closely guarded secret as Kirk was the only person we ever saw employ that way of doing it despite it being really easy), who knows everything Nelson ever did?

The TNG crew don't seem to have earned the same sort of acclaim as the TOS gang did for their exploits, either. I suppose that's partly due to how much bigger Starfleet is in Picard's day than Kirk's. They built 72,000 ships between Excelsior and Defiant and don't seem to have retired many of them, since we frequently see Excelsior and Miranda-class ships in TNG and DS9 with registries in the 10,000s. We even occasionally see a few below that (I think the Repulse with its' NCC-2544 is the oldest ship we see in TNG).

We never really got a historical perspective on the D though. Riker seemed to become well known amongst other officers after BOBW, indeed he'd stand a chance of becoming better known to the public than Picard (as a hero anyway, I'm sure the Locutus thing made the news) as that's a high profile public rescuing of the entire planet.



Speaking of DS9, I've noticed recently that Terry Ferrell gets a lot of flak and I can't quite figure out why. Dax sucked in the first two seasons but I'd put that more on the writers (who seemed to have no idea what to do with her) than the acting. She could be a bit wooden at first but by the time the middle seasons rolled around and the character had grown a personality, I thought she was fine. Not exceptional, but no worse than half the TNG cast.

I liked Dax once they ditched her original "Aloof intellectual" characterisation and made her a life loving adventurer, which Ferell is obviously much more comfortable playing.

Actually, I like both Dax's (despite Ezri being portrayed as a potential date for most of the cast rather than a character in her own right half the time), a nice variation on the Time Lord idea (I'm sure it's not coincidence that one of Dax's past hosts was a Leela and Ezri's original surname was pronounced "Tegan").

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-10-30, 04:29 PM
Actually, I like both Dax's (despite Ezri being portrayed as a potential date for most of the cast rather than a character in her own right half the time), a nice variation on the Time Lord idea (I'm sure it's not coincidence that one of Dax's past hosts was a Leela and Ezri's original surname was pronounced "Tegan").


Or that Borg are basically a rip-off of the Cybermen. The Cybermen on the current show remind more of the Borg every time they show up now.

inflatable dalek
2015-10-30, 04:39 PM
I never bought that the Bog were intentionally ripped off from the Cybermen. Though the art department were clearly fans (though they can't spell "Peter Davison" properly in The Neutral Zone) I've never seen any indication Maurice Hurley was a fan and it's a logical, cheap, place to go once insects with a hive mind proved to be too expensive. Plus the more obviously Cybermen themed ideas ("Assimilation" being the obvious one) only really become established later.

I do enjoy pointing out the Who fans who get smug about the Borg that the Cybermen are a total rip off from the Cybernauts in The Avengers anyway. Though at least Peddler and Davis didn't make it really obvious by giving them a crippled industrialist in a wheelchair as a creator.

inflatable dalek
2015-11-03, 08:58 PM
So a new Trek TV series is coming to CBS' online subscription service (in America anyway, I suspect it'll actually wind up with a good chance of making it to TV in this country, Trek always used to do well for Sky) in January 2017, from Orci and Kurtsman. With the X Files this January it looks like that's the month for inevitably crushing disappointments.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-11-03, 10:32 PM
Oh, right, yeah. Star Trek gets yet another ****ing tv series while Carnivale sits in unfinished limbo.

Also, fairly certain I locked this thread.

Heinrad
2015-11-04, 03:40 AM
To briefly jump back a little:

The in-Universe stated reason, if I remember correctly, as to why we only have NCC-1701 Enterprise around as the "Enterprise"/Constitution class that gets a refit/overhaul is that by the end of Kirk's 5 year mission, Enterprise was the only Constitution class crusier left in service, all the others having been destroyed or so badly damaged that repair and refit would have been pointless as they were obsolete.

With Enterprise, they could just build on pre-existing hulls.

I'm not entirely sure if they were thinking before Search for Spock came out that there would be more ships shown or not, because I got the impression from Mr. Scott's Guide To The Enterprise that NCC-1701 was going to be like CVN-65, the only one of her kind in the currently active fleet. It would make sense, because the Miranda class(or whatever class Reliant was) certainly seemed capable of matching what Enterprise was capable of. Then ILM got to vent their frustrations on the massive prop model, and the U.S.S. Tai-Ho got a name change and a new command crew.

I suppose it all depends on how big a gap there is between TMP and TWOK. By the end of the 5 year mission, all of the new Constitution class cruisers may well have looked like the post refit Enterprise, and by the time TWOK happens, Excelsior's about to fly, taking the Constitution class' role in the fleet if the ship works out. It does kind of say something that in TMP, Enterprise is basically a brand new ship, the pride of the fleet(so much so that the Enterprise emblem is now the fleet-wide emblem), and by TWOK she's practically mothballed, only used on cadet cruises.

Unless they've changed it digitally, each ship in TOS was supposed to have it's own, individual emblem on the uniform shirts. But given the fact that the only one we see with any regularity is the Enterprise arrowhead, I can see why the change happened.

Tetsuro
2015-11-04, 01:56 PM
Also Riker was something of a hotshot, apparently. He'd actually graduated at the same time as Geordi and only had seven years of experience by the time the series started. That doesn't really add up to me, given the job that he has and all the experiences he's said to have gone through. Also apparently Riker is almost a decade younger than the man playing him, which almost-but-not-quite works when he's a babyfaced skinny dude in season one. But by the time the finale rolls around he's the oldest-looking 35 year old in the galaxy.
I suppose you could interpret his poker skills as a part of how he made it to commander in such a short notice; he was no stranger to taking risks, and he knew exactly when was a good time to take them. Then again, while he lashes out at his subordinates when they go over his head, it's difficult to imagine he never did that himself.

There's a notable lack of good Star Trek ship toys out there in general, right now. Which is a shame because I'd love to grab a few. The stickers have all peeled off of my explodey Generations Enterprise-D and I don't think the electronics work anymore either. I've also lost most of my old model kits to the ravages of time and yellowing. :(
Well there's always the Diamond Select Toys one, but 1701-D in particular seems to fetch absurd amounts of money in the aftermarket, while on the flipside I got a vintage Playmates one, unapplied stickers and all, for like 40-50 dollars shipped, and that's international shipping. I guess the DST has killed the demand for the vintage toy - their Voyager in the other hand is like £180 on ebay.

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-11-04, 02:17 PM
I suppose it all depends on how big a gap there is between TMP and TWOK. By the end of the 5 year mission, all of the new Constitution class cruisers may well have looked like the post refit Enterprise, and by the time TWOK happens, Excelsior's about to fly, taking the Constitution class' role in the fleet if the ship works out. It does kind of say something that in TMP, Enterprise is basically a brand new ship, the pride of the fleet(so much so that the Enterprise emblem is now the fleet-wide emblem), and by TWOK she's practically mothballed, only used on cadet cruises.



There was a 5-issue Marvel comic book series (I honestly don't remember the name of the series because the Marvel/Paramount Star Trek comics were a mess in their own right) that was supposed to be the "bridge" between when TMP ended and TWOK began and it stated that 5 years took place between the first two movies.

The basic reason why the ship was kept because it's the same model and Paramount didn't want to spend any more money on any Star Trek film than had to on it, I mean hell they even use some of the very same footage from TMP in TWOK in space dock scene. People forget that while TWOK is a great movie it looks and feels like a glorified TV movie than a theatrical film which was problem with movies 2-6, and 9. For all their faults TMP, First Contact, Nemesis and Abrams' abortions do feel like major feature films. The rest look and feel like anywhere from below to above average TV or direct-to-video movies.

Heinrad
2015-11-05, 12:07 AM
A 5 year gap doesn't really seem to work, though. The gap between TOS and TMP is supposed to be 18 months, and I think Kahn was on Ceti Alpha Five for, what, ten to fifteen years?

That being said, the only way for there too be more of the post refit look Constitution class ships(I think at one point they were even referred to as Constitution II) would be if the original Constitution class was already being phased out by the newer look ships possibly even before the start of Kirk's 5 year mission. That being said, a couple of close calls on the going to war front may have gotten Starfleet to expand it's shipbuilding program.

We'd have a lot fewer headaches on this front if Roddenberry had simply used his Klingon explanation for the refit. "It always looked like that. There must have been something wrong with your TV."

Tetsuro
2015-11-05, 01:50 PM
I just assumed that after TOS, they finished their five year mission (that's two years), went on another five year mission (no idea where I got this impression though) after that (probably a hiatus of indeterminate length between them), then there was probably that 18 month gap you mentioned, and finally, another five year mission after TMP.

Yes, I know I'm probably making up half of this, but it's not like the comics adhere to canon all that well anyway - especially since there were several issues taking place after TWOK but then STIII takes place after far too short a period after it for any of those comic stories to actually fit in, even if they tried to restore the status quo to best of their ability.

Warcry
2015-11-05, 07:07 PM
I keep seeing a nice three pack set of the 1701, refit and B in Forbidden Planet and am so tempted. But even though it says it's a simple kit, I suspect I'll still bugger it up.
I know the set you mean! The box claims that they snap together with no need to glue or paint them, but I can speak from experience when I say that they look pretty shitty if you do that. And they're pretty small for painting small details, at least for a hamhands like me.

I did manage to make the larger Enterprise-C model I built look really good, though it's at least twice as big.

Especially considering he's a proper officer in this timeline, Star Fleet is drafting children. That's dark.
Well, he would have been 18 at the time, so it's not totally insane. Assuming Starfleet was at war for a while, you could assume that they were hard enough up for officers that they would have accepted the kid the first time he applied for early admission in season 1. Add in a rushed schedule that saw him out the door as quickly as Nog in DS9, and it just about lines up without being too crazy.

I'm really glad they didn't go down that obvious parallel Universe EVIL regular route myself. Especially considering how... large Dorn played basically the same thing in DS9 (where he's basically playing 50 Shades of Grey with Garak).
I dunno, I think it would have been okay for what amounted to only one or two lines at the end of the episode.

I do wish they'd edited out the "I'm going to have sex with you later" look Kirk gives Sisko though.
Nah, Kirk totally would have boned him if he'd gotten the chance.

Plus, even if Soong was an ahead of his time genius, Data is over twenty years old at this point. Shouldn't a lot of the technology in him be badly antiquated, or at least easily replicatable, by now? Even if he's constantly been doing software/hardware updates that suggests contemporary Federation tech should be able to match him.
Never thought of this before, but yeah. Surely he'd be the equivalent of a sentient Intel 486, in today's terms?

It can work if it's a broad comedy (The X-Files episode Bad Blood is hilarious with Mulder and Scully's drastically different versions of what happened. Though it still has something sweet to say about the characters and how they interact as well),
Was that the one with Alex Trebek?

He's probably been too busy with the raping thing to pay attention to human behaviour.
I suppose that could explain why he gave up on being a captain. Less time for sex crimes when you're in charge of a starship...

It is a slightly lazy "This shit just got real" plot device isn't it? Especially in The Jem Hadar where they even cast a Picard looking actor as the captain.

At least when they did it in the original series it was because they didn't have the budget for new ships (I love how all their registry numbers are 1701 mucked about with on the AMT kit).
I'm forgiving enough of them blowing up Yamato, since TNG was more or less in the same boat as TOS at that point. They could have blown up a movie-era ship instead I suppose, but it wouldn't have had as much impact as a TNG-era one and at the time there was only one of those. And Odyssey, as you say, was a pretty blatant "they'd have killed the Enterprise!" move.

I was very happy to see the class treated with more respect during the Dominion War battles, where they basically steamroll over anything in their way.

I was always surprised when they did the Directors Cut of the first film they didn't CGI Archer's ship in place of that other spaceship in the rec deck.
That actually makes a huge amount of sense. They totally should have!

We never really got a historical perspective on the D though. Riker seemed to become well known amongst other officers after BOBW, indeed he'd stand a chance of becoming better known to the public than Picard (as a hero anyway, I'm sure the Locutus thing made the news) as that's a high profile public rescuing of the entire planet.
But even by the movie era, Kirk and Spock at least seem to be considered pretty damned legendary. So if Picard's crew is going to earn the same level of notoriety, we probably would have started to see some of that by the time Nemesis rolled around, and we don't. Honestly, Sisko and Janeway are liable to be way more famous both within Starfleet circles and without considering what they did in their own series. Especially since BOBW is probably the only thing that the Enterprise-D is known for among the general public and only a few years later civilians are dismissively calling it "the Borg scare".

I liked Dax once they ditched her original "Aloof intellectual" characterisation and made her a life loving adventurer, which Ferell is obviously much more comfortable playing.
Yeah, same here. It was a pretty wild swing in personality, but it made the character so much better that it's hard to complain. Especially when you can easily justify it with "Jadzia was a cold fish who loosened up as she grew more integrated with the freewheeling Dax".

Actually, I like both Dax's (despite Ezri being portrayed as a potential date for most of the cast rather than a character in her own right half the time), a nice variation on the Time Lord idea (I'm sure it's not coincidence that one of Dax's past hosts was a Leela and Ezri's original surname was pronounced "Tegan").
I'm a big fan of Ezri as well, and I thought she got some great character episodes in spite of only being on the show for a year. But I'd imagine she gets a lot of flak for being a last-minute replacement for a popular character.

Honestly, it's a shame they didn't get the idea to have a replacement Dax a season or two sooner. I also like both, but it would have been nice to see more of the "replacement" version.

Or that Borg are basically a rip-off of the Cybermen. The Cybermen on the current show remind more of the Borg every time they show up now.
Nah, the Borg (and Cybermen, really) are just zombies prettied up for sci-fi. It's an idea as old as time.

So a new Trek TV series is coming to CBS' online subscription service (in America anyway, I suspect it'll actually wind up with a good chance of making it to TV in this country, Trek always used to do well for Sky) in January 2017, from Orci and Kurtsman. With the X Files this January it looks like that's the month for inevitably crushing disappointments.
Yeah, I saw that and thought about the same thing you did.

I also thought "this is going to be one of the most pirated TV shows of all time, isn't it?" Trying to keep a popular series like Star Trek off of broadcast TV isn't going to get many people to buy your subscription who wouldn't have already, but it'll definitely get them to circumvent giving you money entirely.

Do we know if the movie cast will be in it? I was assuming it would be a DS9/Voyager-style spinoff, but I suppose if they're really invested in their streaming service they might invest enough cash to pay their actors and make a TV miniseries.

The in-Universe stated reason, if I remember correctly, as to why we only have NCC-1701 Enterprise around as the "Enterprise"/Constitution class that gets a refit/overhaul is that by the end of Kirk's 5 year mission, Enterprise was the only Constitution class crusier left in service, all the others having been destroyed or so badly damaged that repair and refit would have been pointless as they were obsolete.
I don't think this was ever shown or said on-screen, actually, though the assumption that Kirk was the first captain to ever brink a Connie back from their five-year mission intact certainly showed up in the books. But then, that would also imply that Pike and April never did it either, so even if the other ships were shot to hell some of them might have gotten the same refit.

It would make sense, because the Miranda class(or whatever class Reliant was) certainly seemed capable of matching what Enterprise was capable of. Then ILM got to vent their frustrations on the massive prop model, and the U.S.S. Tai-Ho got a name change and a new command crew.
Wasn't Reliant considered a dilapidated old scow by the time it was destroyed, though? I seem to recall reading that in the TWOK novelization anyway, though I don't think it made it on-screen.

Well there's always the Diamond Select Toys one, but 1701-D in particular seems to fetch absurd amounts of money in the aftermarket, while on the flipside I got a vintage Playmates one, unapplied stickers and all, for like 40-50 dollars shipped, and that's international shipping. I guess the DST has killed the demand for the vintage toy - their Voyager in the other hand is like £180 on ebay.
This reminds me...I need to replace a few of my old Playmates Trek toys. Data and Geordi at least, so that I can have a complete TNG crew.

Did anyone else collect them back in the 90s? For about three years they were my favourite thing ever. I must have had about forty of the things, including the TOS and TNG main casts, a bunch of secondary characters like Barclay and O'Brien, different uniform variants, random aliens and four or five Borg. Though ironically I never got into collecting the DS9 ones...I think I only ever got Kira, Dax and Dukat.

For all their faults TMP, First Contact, Nemesis and Abrams' abortions do feel like major feature films. The rest look and feel like anywhere from below to above average TV or direct-to-video movies.
I can't argue with this. Regardless of how good they actually are, none of the other Trek films look like something they couldn't have done on a TV budget. I actually rewatched Generations and First Contact over the weekend due to this thread, and the differences between the two were pretty stark.

A 5 year gap doesn't really seem to work, though. The gap between TOS and TMP is supposed to be 18 months, and I think Kahn was on Ceti Alpha Five for, what, ten to fifteen years?
I think the (current...) official dates for the 5-year mission was 2264-2269, with TMP somewhere around 2271-2273 and TWOK not happening until 2285. Though I've never liked that dating, because I always figured that...

I just assumed that after TOS, they finished their five year mission (that's two years), went on another five year mission (no idea where I got this impression though) after that (probably a hiatus of indeterminate length between them), then there was probably that 18 month gap you mentioned, and finally, another five year mission after TMP.
...this happened, because it's the only way all the old novels and comics make any sense. And also because everyone on the crew is clearly a decade older than the last time we saw them, so TMP being only a couple years after Turnabout Intruder really stretches credulity.

Heinrad
2015-11-06, 03:04 AM
I guess I know what I'm watching this weekend. TMP on Blu-Ray.

Great Bird of the Galaxy, protect me. Then again, maybe not.

I never got the impression during TWOK that Reliant is supposed to be an old rust bucket. The class it bears the most resemblance to is the tug out of the first Star Trek Technical Manual, and I don't think the tug had much in the way or armament. I know in the first Starfleet Command computer game, that class worked a lot better than the Constitution class did, because it was faster and more maneuverable. At least for me at any rate.

I always liked DC's first run of Star Trek over the later run they did. And their mad scramble leading up to TVH.... I can see the meeting now....

Paramount honcho: By the way, guys, here's the script for the next Trek movie.

DC editorial: -reads the script- Oh, crap. Where'd we put Spock and his ship again? And now we have to get Kirk off the Excelsior? And hope we didn't leave the Bird of Prey in the Mirror Universe, and reconcile the fact that Kirk's already been put on trial by the Federation for stealing the Enterprise...... Couldn't you guys have just done a trilogy and been done with it?

Other than the weirdness that hit the book when TVH came out, and once they got writers who were either fans of Star Trek or at the very least had a passing knowledge of the show, it was a great book. It even gave us the Honorable Kobry, the oldest Klingon in history.

Yeah, okay, we had to wait for The TNG book Strike Zone for him to show up, but still....

Warcry
2015-11-06, 04:01 AM
I guess I know what I'm watching this weekend. TMP on Blu-Ray.
Don't even joke about that. You might tempt me to do the same. :(

I never got the impression during TWOK that Reliant is supposed to be an old rust bucket.
I knew I'd read it somewhere! Google Books to the rescue: (https://books.google.ca/books?id=6utdeQnK62MC&pg=PT36&lpg=PT36&dq=reliant+old+bucket&source=bl&ots=BMIRSpXoe_&sig=B4WHob4qYj4-kXFesHiDQdm9KHg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CE0Q6AEwCmoVChMIp5mw1u36yAIVRZMeCh3i3g72#v=onepage&q=reliant%20old%20bucket&f=false)

http://i1296.photobucket.com/albums/ag6/gbehrends/Reliant_zpsnamdbuw9.jpg

Considering the way the movie novelizations are written, I'd imagine that bit of characterization came from an earlier draft of the script and just never made it on-screen. It's a sensible characterization, though, since the Miranda-class is built from the same components at the Constitution refit (and a relatively even match in a fight) and by TWOK that's seemingly not top-of-the-line anymore. Though what is is a bit of an open question, since the Excelsior is still years away from entering full-time service, let alone any other ships of the class. Maybe it was the Constellation-class? Giving it four warp nacelles instead of the usual two might have been a short-term attempt to brute-force a solution with old tech until the next generation of ships -- Excelsior and presumably some smaller classes based on the same tech (though we literally only saw one, ever, in the Centaur) --were ready to take over the front-line role that the Enterprise was apparently no longer good enough for.

The class it bears the most resemblance to is the tug out of the first Star Trek Technical Manual, and I don't think the tug had much in the way or armament.
The old manuals seem to show a version of Starfleet that never made it into any of the official stuff, which is sort of a shame because the wider array of ship classes that they showed off really did make TOS Starfleet seem like a real organization and not a couple dozen ships bouncing aimlessly from star to star. Unfortunately the new ship designs were pretty lazy, often just Enterprise with parts added or removed.

Honestly, I always figured the fact that the sometimes-low rank of the Enterprise XO's (Spock was only a Lt. Commander for most of the first season, and "Number One" was only a Lieutenant in The Cage) reflected the fact that the Constitution-class wasn't the biggest, baddest ship in the Federation's arsenal, but simply the kind best-suited to long-term space exploration.

It even gave us the Honorable Kobry, the oldest Klingon in history.

Yeah, okay, we had to wait for The TNG book Strike Zone for him to show up, but still....
Wasn't he the Klingon ambassador dwarf? I only vaguely remember that book other than that it had Kreel in it.

Sades
2015-11-06, 05:37 AM
Did anyone else collect them back in the 90s? For about three years they were my favourite thing ever. I must have had about forty of the things, including the TOS and TNG main casts, a bunch of secondary characters like Barclay and O'Brien, different uniform variants, random aliens and four or five Borg. Though ironically I never got into collecting the DS9 ones...I think I only ever got Kira, Dax and Dukat.


MEEE TOOOOOO. Though I never really got many aliens. Just the main bridge people and some alt costumes. Had the transporter, prop toys, ships, etc.

I was into the models at one point. I did the big 1701-D that had all the detailed paint apps and decals and stuff and got a Klingon ship, a Romulan ship and DS9 along the way.

I used to have a binder full of the collector's cards. I even had a bunch of the little chip bag cards from back in the day... there might be a couple of those floating around somewhere.

Tetsuro
2015-11-06, 12:01 PM
Unfortunately the basic electronic 1701-D was the only Playmates Trek toy I had, and even then saying I had it as a "kid" is stretching it because I was in middle school by the time I got it; bought it at a gift shop of this Star Trek display touring Europe sometime around '99 or '00.

...that was actually the first one I had - I foolishly sold it years later to buy the DST 1701-E which turned out to be a piece of junk (the power switch didn't work properly, I couldn't get it off the demo mode and eventually the other nacelle stopped lighting up), and I sold that too - and I think it was early this year I finally bought that 50 dollar Playmates D I mentioned.

inflatable dalek
2015-11-06, 04:35 PM
The Reliant clearly isn't a better ship that the Enterprise, it has to cheat to get its initial advantage after all.

I know the set you mean! The box claims that they snap together with no need to glue or paint them, but I can speak from experience when I say that they look pretty shitty if you do that. And they're pretty small for painting small details, at least for a hamhands like me.

Yeah, I shall probably avoid it then. Though the original at least has the advantage of not being hugely detailed to start with anyway.


Nah, Kirk totally would have boned him if he'd gotten the chance.

He was probably thinking "Where's the totty that usually brings me the form to sign?".

It's a great gag, but it is odd that, considering the relatively small crew, Kirk wouldn't spot an imposter on his bridge straight away, especially as he'd presumably take note of short term assignments in case they're hot.

It was cheeky of Sisko to go back in time another couple of weeks to the end of Mirror Mirror to find the best moment as well.



Was that the one with Alex Trebek?

That's another good example (though the Trebek joke fails entirely in the UK), but I'm thinking of the vampire town (or is it?!?!) one.


I suppose that could explain why he gave up on being a captain. Less time for sex crimes when you're in charge of a starship...

Kirk managed both at the same time, Riker's just not trying.



That actually makes a huge amount of sense. They totally should have!

I do think it's a shame none of the directors cuts are on the blu rays considering you could easily fit two versions of the film onto each disc. I know TMP has the problem that none of the new effects were in HD and the original masters are lost and thus impossible to re-render (at least cheaply), but if they had the original cut and the TV cut on there I think they could get away with a third not entirely HD version. Sort of like that Donner cut of Superman II, you couldn't sell it on a blu ray by itself but it makes a nice complement to the original film.



Yeah, same here. It was a pretty wild swing in personality, but it made the character so much better that it's hard to complain. Especially when you can easily justify it with "Jadzia was a cold fish who loosened up as she grew more integrated with the freewheeling Dax".

I always just assumed the symbiont just overwhelmed and destroyed her original personality. Seriously, those things are evil (note how when John Glover gets Dax it doesn't use its influence to make him hand it back, the slug doesn't care as long as it has thumbs!) and no wonder the books made them the Conspiracy bugs.


I'm a big fan of Ezri as well, and I thought she got some great character episodes in spite of only being on the show for a year. But I'd imagine she gets a lot of flak for being a last-minute replacement for a popular character.

Yeah, the one with her brother was a bit poo, but I liked the SUPER gun one and she was generally a fun bubbly character.

My real problem with the last season is the characters fall into their little cliques and don't really act as a group any more. Bashir in mostly defined in terms of Ezri and O'Brien, O'Brien in terms of Bashir, Worf with Ezri, Kira with Odo... I think Ezri herself and Quark are the only ones to get decent regular interaction with the rest of the cast. When they're all there at the bar in the last episode it's genuinely hard to think what, say, Sisko and Bashir would ever talk about socially.


Yeah, I saw that and thought about the same thing you did.

I also thought "this is going to be one of the most pirated TV shows of all time, isn't it?" Trying to keep a popular series like Star Trek off of broadcast TV isn't going to get many people to buy your subscription who wouldn't have already, but it'll definitely get them to circumvent giving you money entirely.

Do we know if the movie cast will be in it? I was assuming it would be a DS9/Voyager-style spinoff, but I suppose if they're really invested in their streaming service they might invest enough cash to pay their actors and make a TV miniseries.

The press release said all new characters, I'd guess in the movie Universe as they'll almost certainly be reusing props, sets and costumes and it would allow attention grabbing guest spots from Pegg or whoever.

If they've any sense they'll make the episodes available to buy by themselves, at least with Netflix or Amazon Prime you're getting a platform for the product of pretty much every TV and film maker. Is anyone going to want to sign up for just CBS stuff? I'm certainly not going to pump for the blu ray until I've seen enough to be sure it's not New Voyager.

Though it's not as ground-breaking as what they did with TNG (as streaming only TV shows are already very much a successful thing) it is an experiment for the franchise in the same way going into first run syndication was, so hopefully it'll play out as well for them.

Warcry
2015-11-06, 08:56 PM
MEEE TOOOOOO. Though I never really got many aliens. Just the main bridge people and some alt costumes. Had the transporter, prop toys, ships, etc.
How did I forget the transporter! Damn, I think that might have been one of my favourite Christmases ever (up there with Powermaster Prime and the year I got all the TNG main cast in one go, anyway). I need to get some C batteries and make sure mine still works!

Now I need to rack my memory to see if I can recall all the characters that I had!

There was the TOS main seven. The seven TNG main cast plus Wesley (I know I wanted to add Yar and Pulaski, but I don't think I ever saw one). And then a few uniform variations (Wesley in his cadet outfit for sure, Troi in uniform, and a couple different Geordis because I kept losing/breaking his visor...). O'Brien (in TNG gear), Dax and Kira from DS9. Sela, Dukat, Locutus and three Borg drones on the antagonist side. A few randoms like Barclay and Mordock, though I'm drawing a blank on who else there might have been. So I guess around thirty altogether?

Also had a Klingon Vor'cha cruiser, the Generations version of the Enterprise-D and some of the roleplay stuff (a phaser, a tricorder, a Klingon disruptor). I always thought it was hilarious how big and bulky the toy version of the TNG communicator was, and it's even more hilarious now that we could probably fit a functional (if stripped-down) cell phone inside of something the size of the on-screen prop nowadays.

I was into the models at one point. I did the big 1701-D that had all the detailed paint apps and decals and stuff and got a Klingon ship, a Romulan ship and DS9 along the way.
I built my fair share of them as well, though I was only ever happy with the Reliant and TOS Enterprise I'd built in the end. Sadly they don't really seem to be made to stand the test of time, at least not when a kid's handling them, and the paints that my dad and I used yellowed pretty badly too.

Come to think of it, I'd really like to track down a replacement for one or both of them. They were pretty gorgeous.

...that was actually the first one I had - I foolishly sold it years later to buy the DST 1701-E which turned out to be a piece of junk (the power switch didn't work properly, I couldn't get it off the demo mode and eventually the other nacelle stopped lighting up), and I sold that too - and I think it was early this year I finally bought that 50 dollar Playmates D I mentioned.
Shame that the -E isn't any good. I've never quite come around to thinking of the Sovereign-class as "Enterprise" for whatever reason (I guess it just isn't all that memorable a part of the three movies it's in) but I do like the design and wouldn't have minded owning one.

On a similar track, wouldn't First Contact have been more impactful if it was the familiar 1701-D that was getting slowly assimilated out from under our heroes and not some new ship that we'd never had a chance to get to know? They could even have trashed her to the point where she'd need to be replaced, allowing them to introduce the -E in Insurrection (and maybe giving that film a bit more buzz to help at the box office).

The Reliant clearly isn't a better ship that the Enterprise, it has to cheat to get its initial advantage after all.
I agree that the fight in TWOK is no indication of superiority, but the Reliant might actually have an advantage in firepower even without the ambush. She's got saucer-mounted phaser banks in most (if not all) of the same spots as Enterprise, plus the four extras on the "rollbar" and twice as many torpedo tubes. Even if she can't bring to bear more fire in a particular direction at once, Reliant would seem to have way fewer blind spots.

Yeah, I shall probably avoid it then. Though the original at least has the advantage of not being hugely detailed to start with anyway.
That's true, but (assuming it's the set I'm thinking of, anyway) the original 1701 is so small that even some of that detail is missing from the molding.

It's a great gag, but it is odd that, considering the relatively small crew, Kirk wouldn't spot an imposter on his bridge straight away, especially as he'd presumably take note of short term assignments in case they're hot.
That's not a bad point, actually. Sure, the Enterprise carried 430 crew, but probably only 50 or so of those were officers. And I've always assumed that the "five year mission" line meant that the crew was aboard for the long haul, so turnover would have been few and far between.

Also, considering the halfassed paranoia that Starfleet exhibits in the movie era, I like to think that any goateed black man who showed up on a starship would have been immediately DNA-tested to make sure he wasn't actually a Klingon.

That's another good example (though the Trebek joke fails entirely in the UK), but I'm thinking of the vampire town (or is it?!?!) one.
I'd entirely forgotten about that one too. Probably because I haven't seen the show since it went off the air.

Kirk managed both at the same time, Riker's just not trying.
Now, now, I don't think Kirk ever managed to successfully rape anyone. He was too busy brooding about how much he wished he could have sex with the Enterprise.

I always just assumed the symbiont just overwhelmed and destroyed her original personality. Seriously, those things are evil (note how when John Glover gets Dax it doesn't use its influence to make him hand it back, the slug doesn't care as long as it has thumbs!) and no wonder the books made them the Conspiracy bugs.
You're not wrong. The Trill symbionts seem to show almost zero concern for the lives of their hosts, and there's a lot of good proof to back up the "they're evil" hypothesis going all the way back to The Host when Odan and Beverly raped Will Riker all the way up until Dax selfishly agreed to bond with an unwilling, untrained Ezri to save its own life.

A lot of early-years DS9 stuff seems to treat them as if they're empty vessels that serve no purpose but collecting the memories of their hosts, but TNG and late DS9 make it seem like the slugs are more than likely the dominant partner in the arrangement, with the host basically selling their souls for a chance at immortality.

Yeah, the one with her brother was a bit poo, but I liked the SUPER gun one and she was generally a fun bubbly character.
That, plus as an outsider (quasi-, anyway) she was able to give the main crew a different perspective that just wasn't possible considering how close they'd grown. In particular, her willingness to call bullshit on the Klingon honour fantasyland that Worf lived in was spectacular and something nobody else would be willing to do since they'd all spent so long either humouring it or actively living it.

My real problem with the last season is the characters fall into their little cliques and don't really act as a group any more. Bashir in mostly defined in terms of Ezri and O'Brien, O'Brien in terms of Bashir, Worf with Ezri, Kira with Odo... I think Ezri herself and Quark are the only ones to get decent regular interaction with the rest of the cast. When they're all there at the bar in the last episode it's genuinely hard to think what, say, Sisko and Bashir would ever talk about socially.
That's one of the reasons why I enjoyed the baseball episode. It might be the only time that season that showed the entire crew actually enjoying themselves as a group. Also enjoyed Bashir and Admiral Ross randomly going on a trip together...

Speaking of season 7...was Jake actually in it? I can't actually recall him doing anything other than playing baseball and staring out the window in the final scene.

The press release said all new characters, I'd guess in the movie Universe as they'll almost certainly be reusing props, sets and costumes and it would allow attention grabbing guest spots from Pegg or whoever.
Yeah, I'd be stunned if it wasn't movieverse. I can't see them doing an original universe TV show while the films are so popular. Although Michael Dorn is still apparently pushing to play Captain Worf as the lead in his own show, and lord knows I'd love to see that.

Also, I always thought a Sulu-on-the-Excelsior show would have been fun after Voyager ended, especially since the producers went "backwards" anyway for Enterprise. Sadly, the time for that has long since passed. :(

Tetsuro
2015-11-06, 10:18 PM
On a similar track, wouldn't First Contact have been more impactful if it was the familiar 1701-D that was getting slowly assimilated out from under our heroes and not some new ship that we'd never had a chance to get to know? They could even have trashed her to the point where she'd need to be replaced, allowing them to introduce the -E in Insurrection (and maybe giving that film a bit more buzz to help at the box office).
Well it probably would've been a more dignified end than the one it actually got, that's for sure.

At least there would be less "ha ha, Troi crashed the Enterprise" jokes from the peanut gallery.

Heinrad
2015-11-07, 03:04 AM
The books did put forward the idea that Kirk was the only one to bring his ship back, but I always put it in context of things were getting more dangerous/the Romulans started putting in more appearances/just general wear and tear on aging hulls. The "Big E", the Enterprise that really got the U.S. Navy rolling in having ships named Enterprise in the active fleet, was almost 9 years old when she was decommissioned, because of advances in ship design.

And this was the most honored aircraft carrier in the fleet.

For those wondering, the next Enterprise will be a Ford class supercarrier, CVN-80. The class ship, the Gerald R. Ford, launches next year. No clue how long it takes to build one of these, but the Navy's survived 3 years so far without an active Enterprise, I guess a few more won't hurt.

So, watching TMP, and one of the extras cleared a few things up. A lot of scripts and ideas that were supposed to be in Phase II wound up getting recycled into TNG. Also, Roddenberry and Livingston(screenplay writer) were doing their best to drive Robert Wise mad. I'm guessing not on purpose, but his day apparently started with Wise all bright eyed and full of energy, and at the end of the day he'd be shaking his head wondering how 35 years in film had led to this mess.

It's a miracle it's watchable, from the sounds of it.

And it is watchable. It's not bad. Wise gets good performances out of everybody, the special effects survived the transition to hi-def, the uniforms still suck(it looks like they raided the Buck Rogers wardrobe trailer), but the big problem is still the pacing. It's too much like the episode "The Changling". The concepts are much higher flying than the episode was, but V'Ger's not that different from Nomad.

That being said, given how much money we've given Michael Bay for special effects extravaganzas, you'd think I wouldn't mind all of the effects shots. But while they are beautiful..... they're dull.

In terms of a time gap, TMP happens 2 1/2 years after the end of Kirk's mission.

inflatable dalek
2015-11-08, 05:17 AM
Shame that the -E isn't any good. I've never quite come around to thinking of the Sovereign-class as "Enterprise" for whatever reason (I guess it just isn't all that memorable a part of the three movies it's in) but I do like the design and wouldn't have minded owning one.

Yeah, it's probably about as bland as the Trek look can get. I genuinely don't think the CGI in Insurrection helped, they clearly didn't have the budget to go all digital yet (and I think the only bit of the film that couldn't have been done as well with models was the duelling shuttles in the atmosphere. If they'd actually used the new technology to go fully nuts with the more three dimensional space battles you can do how rough it looks now would be more forgiveable) and the ship becomes a much duller, flatter grey than it was in First Contact.

Only being in three films (and going from "The best ship in the fleet" to "I shall spare your quaint vessel") didn't help it cement itself either, it's easy to forget it's the Enterprise Picard commanded longest, even ignoring what the books did after. I know the A only did two films properly, but I think most of us regard that and the refit as the same.

On a similar track, wouldn't First Contact have been more impactful if it was the familiar 1701-D that was getting slowly assimilated out from under our heroes and not some new ship that we'd never had a chance to get to know? They could even have trashed her to the point where she'd need to be replaced, allowing them to introduce the -E in Insurrection (and maybe giving that film a bit more buzz to help at the box office).

Oh yes. I know there are dull practical real world reasons for destroying the D even beyond everyone working on the show hating the design by the end of the series (ironically the problem of getting the model into positions where it wouldn't look crazy top heavy would have been solved once they made the switch to CGI and weren't dependent on the side mount and the affects of gravity): The sets were going to be destroyed to make room for Voyager anyway so she might as well go out with a bang.

Though it ended up a shit bang.

Ideally I'd have finished Generations with the D intact but badly damaged and in need of an overhaul. So in FC you have the refitted D; allowing for new sets and even some overhauling of the outside look if they'd wanted.

Then as you say, there'd have been enough emotional attachment to the ship to make those scenes even more horrific (though the film does make great play of the fact that Picard has just lost one baby and his determination not to lose another adds to his behaviour in the movie).


I agree that the fight in TWOK is no indication of superiority, but the Reliant might actually have an advantage in firepower even without the ambush. She's got saucer-mounted phaser banks in most (if not all) of the same spots as Enterprise, plus the four extras on the "rollbar" and twice as many torpedo tubes. Even if she can't bring to bear more fire in a particular direction at once, Reliant would seem to have way fewer blind spots.

That does make her seem a bit overpowered for a science mission (which is I think 98.99% of what we saw that class do) and frankly Star Fleet would have been bonkers to trust Chekov as first officer on a ship that could do actual harm to anything.



That's not a bad point, actually. Sure, the Enterprise carried 430 crew, but probably only 50 or so of those were officers. And I've always assumed that the "five year mission" line meant that the crew was aboard for the long haul, so turnover would have been few and far between.

I always love that line about "Packing them in", even with more extras than the original series could afford those corridors are still nice and spacious.


Now, now, I don't think Kirk ever managed to successfully rape anyone. He was too busy brooding about how much he wished he could have sex with the Enterprise.

Though God knows what being told in The Enemy Within that his "I like to rape women" side was essential to his ability to command did to him. Especially as the woman evil Kirk nearly raped is told she wanted it really. By Spock of all people. Was Rung the ship's counsellor?



That, plus as an outsider (quasi-, anyway) she was able to give the main crew a different perspective that just wasn't possible considering how close they'd grown. In particular, her willingness to call bullshit on the Klingon honour fantasyland that Worf lived in was spectacular and something nobody else would be willing to do since they'd all spent so long either humouring it or actively living it.

Yeah, that and the whole handling of Worf as he sorted out Gowron and crowned his second chancellor was very neatly done in the last season.

Then Nemesis came and did a big turd on the whole thing.

That's one of the reasons why I enjoyed the baseball episode. It might be the only time that season that showed the entire crew actually enjoying themselves as a group. Also enjoyed Bashir and Admiral Ross randomly going on a trip together...

Considering it's about baseball the baseball episode is great fun isn't it? I love O'Brien getting slowly pissed on scotch flavoured chewing gum.

Speaking of season 7...was Jake actually in it? I can't actually recall him doing anything other than playing baseball and staring out the window in the final scene.

The odd result of successful character development, they'd logically placed him into a job where he was basically irrelevant to the show. Something of a shame as he was the only Trek kid who was actually any good. Poor old Andrew Robinson is in the bulk of season 7 and has to make do at being a guest star!


Yeah, I'd be stunned if it wasn't movieverse. I can't see them doing an original universe TV show while the films are so popular. Although Michael Dorn is still apparently pushing to play Captain Worf as the lead in his own show, and lord knows I'd love to see that.

It's slightly sad to see some of the TNG cast getting as desperate as Takei has been for years about coming back to the franchise. Dorn however I can see being one of the ones who could cameo in the new series--the precedent has been set with Colonel Worf (and all those Soong's as well I suppose) to have him play his own great grandfather. General Mohg or somesuch.

Warcry
2015-11-10, 09:45 PM
So I've been thinking...what exactly is Data's job, anyway? He's "operations officer", but what does that entail? I remember some episode "Lower Decks, maybe?) when one of the junior staff said that they spent an entire shift at the post finding lost cats, and the boilerplate "managing the ship's resources" line doesn't actually tell us anything. Likewise, he's the ship's second officer but doesn't seem to have any actual responsibilities associated with the position. He never takes part in the crew evaluations (that seems to be Riker and Troi's job) and never deals with complaints from junior crew. He's no more likely to take command of the bridge than Geordi, Crusher or Troi in any given episode, and he rarely seems to take a leadership role in away missions. And unlike the chief engineer, security chief or CMO, he doesn't actually seem to have any staff reporting to him (he didn't even have any say in who got promoted to junior ops officer positions!) He seems to have even less to do than Chekov (Mr. "My job is like Sulu's, but more boring" himself) did in TOS.

I guess that's why he had so much free time to playact as science officer, which he definitely was not.

At least there would be less "ha ha, Troi crashed the Enterprise" jokes from the peanut gallery.
Nah, they could have had the same plot for Generations up to that point, given the writers their "crash the ship" porn and everything. Just have Picard go back a few extra days earlier (you know, early enough to make sure his family didn't die in a fire...) so that the crash would be undone, since the Enterprise would have showed up at Amigosa a few days earlier, arrested Soran for possessing terrorist weapons with minimal fuss and returned the trilithium to the Romulans.

Wow, was that a nonsense movie...

The books did put forward the idea that Kirk was the only one to bring his ship back, but I always put it in context of things were getting more dangerous/the Romulans started putting in more appearances/just general wear and tear on aging hulls. The "Big E", the Enterprise that really got the U.S. Navy rolling in having ships named Enterprise in the active fleet, was almost 9 years old when she was decommissioned, because of advances in ship design.

And this was the most honored aircraft carrier in the fleet.
Yeah, sometimes obsolete is obsolete and there's just nothing you can do about it. If memory serves, the WWII-vintage carriers got retired quickly because they wanted to move to an exclusively nuclear-powered carrier fleet. On the other hand, her successor was in service for 50 years and the new one is liable to be around for just as long. I don't think the wartime ships were necessarily built to last, though.

I do suspect that the Enterprise-A met with a similar fate as the wartime carrier -- technology outpaced it faster than expected and there just wasn't any use keeping ships like her in service. The Excelsiors were bigger, faster and more durable, and the Connies just didn't have the versatility to adapt to a back-rack support role like the Mirandas.

For those wondering, the next Enterprise will be a Ford class supercarrier, CVN-80. The class ship, the Gerald R. Ford, launches next year. No clue how long it takes to build one of these, but the Navy's survived 3 years so far without an active Enterprise, I guess a few more won't hurt.
The new Enterprise is not scheduled to launch until 2025, I think, and with the way military appropriations go the odds are it'll take longer than that even.

So, watching TMP, and one of the extras cleared a few things up. A lot of scripts and ideas that were supposed to be in Phase II wound up getting recycled into TNG.
Yep. Even as far as character concepts go, they recycled a lot. Riker=Decker, Troi= Ilia, Data was lifted from the unsold pilot of a totally different Roddenberry series, and there may have been one or two others that I'm not remembering right now.

Only being in three films (and going from "The best ship in the fleet" to "I shall spare your quaint vessel") didn't help it cement itself either, it's easy to forget it's the Enterprise Picard commanded longest, even ignoring what the books did after.
Picard's career really is stagnant, isn't it? 22 years captaining the Stargazer, then eight floating around in various desk jobs, then 16+ commanding two Enterprises. He hasn't been promoted in 46 years, the poor SOB!

And to think we complained about Riker's career trajectory being unrealistic...

I know the A only did two films properly, but I think most of us regard that and the refit as the same.
I'd imagine that most of the general public doesn't even remember that they're different ships, in spite of the first one blowing up on-screen. There probably would have been the same lack of impact if they'd gone ahead with the original idea of making the -E another Galaxy-class.

The sets were going to be destroyed to make room for Voyager anyway so she might as well go out with a bang.
On the other hand, they needed to build entirely new sets for the Enterprise-E a year or two later (and kept them for, what, six years?), so I'm not entirely sure that excuse really flies.

I think the bigger problem is that they were terrified that the sets would look low-quality and/or dated on the big screen. And those worries weren't unfounded, really. The sets were terribly 1980s, just like the original series was terribly 1960s. There's a nostalgic feel to them now, but at the same time there's still a sense of "LOL they carpeted the walls!"

DS9 and Voyager gave their sets a more industrial/military feel, and I don't think it's unrelated that they've aged a lot better in spite of being pretty old themselves by now.

Ideally I'd have finished Generations with the D intact but badly damaged and in need of an overhaul. So in FC you have the refitted D; allowing for new sets and even some overhauling of the outside look if they'd wanted.
I would have gone this route myself. Although I'm pretty attached to the graceful exterior of 1701-D, I think they could have definitely improved the interiors without making them unrecognizable.

Then as you say, there'd have been enough emotional attachment to the ship to make those scenes even more horrific (though the film does make great play of the fact that Picard has just lost one baby and his determination not to lose another adds to his behaviour in the movie).
Unfortunately Picard showed a terrible lack of concern at coming home to find his ship utterly destroyed in the previous movie. He was even all "eh, they'll make another" when Riker dares to be actually sad.

Though I suppose if you were to ask him, his "real" ship would be the Stargazer since he commanded her for over two decades.

That does make her seem a bit overpowered for a science mission (which is I think 98.99% of what we saw that class do) and frankly Star Fleet would have been bonkers to trust Chekov as first officer on a ship that could do actual harm to anything.
Which I suppose raises the question of how exactly Chekov of all people got promoted to XO on starship but the more experienced Uhura and Sulu were stuck shepherding cadets and playacting in training simulators. Though I suppose Sulu can't complain since he made captain and Chekov didn't.

And to be fair, we saw a lot of Miranda-class ships serve as cannon fodder in TNG/DS9 too, so they're not just for science. In fact, the swappable "rollbar" modules are supposed to make the class adaptable to all sorts of different mission profiles.

Then Nemesis came and did a big turd on the whole thing.
What are you talking about? Worf and Geordi weren't in that movie. :glance:

Considering it's about baseball the baseball episode is great fun isn't it? I love O'Brien getting slowly pissed on scotch flavoured chewing gum.
Screw you, baseball is awesome!

Yeah, they did a pretty good job of making it accessible even to foreign savages who've never played the sport.

The odd result of successful character development, they'd logically placed him into a job where he was basically irrelevant to the show. Something of a shame as he was the only Trek kid who was actually any good. Poor old Andrew Robinson is in the bulk of season 7 and has to make do at being a guest star!
I've heard they actually offered to make Robinson main cast later on in the series, but he said no (presumably because guest stars get paid more per appearance, so the "promotion" could have meant more work for the same pay). Honestly he, Casey Biggs and Jeffrey Combs all probably deserved to be listed in the main cast in the last couple seasons. But they could have sent Jake off to live on Earth after the war started and I probably wouldn't have even noticed.

It's slightly sad to see some of the TNG cast getting as desperate as Takei has been for years about coming back to the franchise. Dorn however I can see being one of the ones who could cameo in the new series--the precedent has been set with Colonel Worf (and all those Soong's as well I suppose) to have him play his own great grandfather. General Mohg or somesuch.
Honestly I can't imagine any of them are desperate, since they can all make a good living doing nothing but the convention circuit for the rest of their lives. But I get what you mean...most of them really didn't have careers in front of the camera after they left Trek. Stewart being the obvious exception.

inflatable dalek
2015-11-11, 09:04 AM
So I've been thinking...what exactly is Data's job, anyway? He's "operations officer", but what does that entail? I remember some episode "Lower Decks, maybe?) when one of the junior staff said that they spent an entire shift at the post finding lost cats, and the boilerplate "managing the ship's resources" line doesn't actually tell us anything. Likewise, he's the ship's second officer but doesn't seem to have any actual responsibilities associated with the position. He never takes part in the crew evaluations (that seems to be Riker and Troi's job) and never deals with complaints from junior crew. He's no more likely to take command of the bridge than Geordi, Crusher or Troi in any given episode, and he rarely seems to take a leadership role in away missions. And unlike the chief engineer, security chief or CMO, he doesn't actually seem to have any staff reporting to him (he didn't even have any say in who got promoted to junior ops officer positions!) He seems to have even less to do than Chekov (Mr. "My job is like Sulu's, but more boring" himself) did in TOS.

I guess that's why he had so much free time to playact as science officer, which he definitely was not.

He was originally supposed to be science officer (and sit in the third seat in the centre, I think someone realised that without a place on the bridge Troi basically wouldn't be in the show. Then he was supposed to be walking about the rear consoles like Worf does in season 1), but make up and costume tests showed the gold skin and the blue uniform didn't mesh well together visually so they made up a new position for him.

Why they just didn't change the colour of science (after all, you could argue it's as close to engineering as it is to medical) when they mucked about with some of the other colours in relation to the original series I'm not sure.

Sadly that make up test isn't on the blu rays, but there are some hilarious ones on there, including Geordi in a bling visor.

Science officer is an obvious omission from the D's senior staff, with the whole exploration angle you'd have thought they'd have been more likely to make it than Dax on DS9.

Then again, whoever replaced her as science officer didn't get to be senior staff, but suddenly the psychiatrist did. I guess Sisko was just getting his mate on staff meetings (plus, when was the last time Jadzia did something science-ey before she died anyway?).

Actually, did we ever see another Operations Officer? Was Harry Kim one? Jesus, that is a shit job. Poor old Data.


Nah, they could have had the same plot for Generations up to that point, given the writers their "crash the ship" porn and everything. Just have Picard go back a few extra days earlier (you know, early enough to make sure his family didn't die in a fire...) so that the crash would be undone, since the Enterprise would have showed up at Amigosa a few days earlier, arrested Soran for possessing terrorist weapons with minimal fuss and returned the trilithium to the Romulans.

I've seen people genuinely argue that Picard doesn't save his family because he's of strong moral character and wouldn't break the temporal Prime Directive. I'm not sure how that squares with trying to change history to stop a sun exploding. You think he'd try and do both. Once he's saved his family all he actually needs to do is refuse Soran permission to go back to the observatory and, once he's sent Geordi and Data over and gotten the proof of wrong doing, lock him up. He wouldn't even have to reveal to the potentially confuse the others by mentioning time travel!

Though of course, the episode of the series right before this has him cheerfully giving his entire crew knowledge of their future so they can make a better one and them taking it at face value.

What's especially daft is, the moment he actually chooses to go back to is probably the single worst moment he could have picked. "I'd like to be stuck under than rock getting shot at again!"

Maybe he could even point out to Soran that he (and Kirk, and the other refugees Scotty didn't rescue. And Guinan's ghost or whatever that was) got into the Nexus in the first place by flying into it on a ship, so just ignore Data and do that again. Or even just jump in a space suit and float in rather than blowing up a bloody planet.


Wow, was that a nonsense movie...

Lucky they learnt that lesson.

Ah.

Bugger.



Yep. Even as far as character concepts go, they recycled a lot. Riker=Decker, Troi= Ilia, Data was lifted from the unsold pilot of a totally different Roddenberry series, and there may have been one or two others that I'm not remembering right now.

The Questor Tapes is out on DVD here, I keep meaning to give it a watch to see how much of Data was recycled beyond the "Robot" idea. Plus him being played by Robert "Ratchet" Foxworth is good fun.

Interesting fact: Nimoy was originally cast a Questor and--after initially being wary of playing a weird alien guy again--came to really dig the whole trying to become human and find his origin idea. And was then niffed when he was let go by Roddenberry with little explanation, adding to their 70's long rift.

Picard's career really is stagnant, isn't it? 22 years captaining the Stargazer, then eight floating around in various desk jobs, then 16+ commanding two Enterprises. He hasn't been promoted in 46 years, the poor SOB!

Presumably he had a ship inbetween, I think him mentioning running away very fast in it from the Cardassians during the war in The Wounded is about the only clue we get.

Though to be fair, Ron Moore thought the same as you and specifically wrote that line about having to assume command following the death of the captain so as to say he wasn't four pips on the same ship for two decades solid (oddly a similar idea was in the original show bible as part of the explanation for Picard helping to create the "Captain's don't go on away missions" rule, but that was dropped quickly and Moore didn't know about it).

Hmm, just hanging about and wating for the Captain to die so you can take over? He really was an inspiration to Riker...

The main thing I don't like about the E is the bridge. It feels very ill defined in comparison to any of the others, I don't really have a clue what any of the stations do, and the slightly relaxed layout of the consoles means it feels a bit slapdash (Riker and Troi and to slightly face Picard at all times? There's an ego).

The only other bridge that comes as close to not quite working is Voyager. Having one centre seat works. Having three centre seats works. Two, especially two that a little off centre, doesn't work.



Unfortunately Picard showed a terrible lack of concern at coming home to find his ship utterly destroyed in the previous movie. He was even all "eh, they'll make another" when Riker dares to be actually sad.

Ah, but he's learnt that death is a natural part of life we shouldn't be scared of and should accept and embrace our mortality!

A speech he's giving to a man who has just been resurrected from the dead (and indeed now never died in the first place) by Picard.


Which I suppose raises the question of how exactly Chekov of all people got promoted to XO on starship but the more experienced Uhura and Sulu were stuck shepherding cadets and playacting in training simulators. Though I suppose Sulu can't complain since he made captain and Chekov didn't.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a bit of a FU to Takei and his constant campaigning to be a captain. "OK, OK, we'll put a line in about how you've been promoted to captain (let's hope said line doesn't wind up being cut out in a way that really pisses you off even more at Bill Shatner)... oh, and we'll make Chekov a First Officer and give him an entire major subplot based around that".



What are you talking about? Worf and Geordi weren't in that movie. :glance:

No, Geordi's eyes were. We established that much earlier.


Screw you, baseball is awesome!

Yeah, they did a pretty good job of making it accessible even to foreign savages who've never played the sport.

Hey, I was really good at rounders when I was six. NBL level man!


I've heard they actually offered to make Robinson main cast later on in the series, but he said no (presumably because guest stars get paid more per appearance, so the "promotion" could have meant more work for the same pay). Honestly he, Casey Biggs and Jeffrey Combs all probably deserved to be listed in the main cast in the last couple seasons. But they could have sent Jake off to live on Earth after the war started and I probably wouldn't have even noticed.

Interesting, I'd read the higher ups nixed the idea for cost reasons. Nog probably deserved to be a regular as well (and as actual Star Fleet it would have been easier to write him into every episode as well). It's amazing that in comparison Token on Enterprise got to be a regular for four seasons.

inflatable dalek
2015-11-11, 10:02 AM
Oh, and I've certainly shared this before at some point over the years, but how awesome is the trailer we used to have at the start of every Trek video in the UK?:

2M7l4d3am3o

"I guess we weren't sufficiently... entertaining".

It also comes from a happier world with no Voyager or Enterprise in it.

Tetsuro
2015-11-11, 12:26 PM
It also comes from a happier world with no Voyager or Enterprise in it.
Or Generations!

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-11-13, 12:09 AM
So a new Trek TV series is coming to CBS' online subscription service (in America anyway, I suspect it'll actually wind up with a good chance of making it to TV in this country, Trek always used to do well for Sky) in January 2017, from Orci and Kurtsman. With the X Files this January it looks like that's the month for inevitably crushing disappointments.

As writers Orci and Kurtzman pretty much suck the ONLY thing that they wrote that didn't totally suck was an episode of Xena Warrior Princess IIRC it the one where Xena gave birth to her daughter Eve, and since it was the kick-off to "The Twilight of the Gods" storyline that went through the whole fifth season and the fact the Hercules guest starred and it ends with Herc killing his father Zeus to protect Xena, Gabrielle, and Eve and was a turning point in that show and Hercules: The Legendary Journeys. The only problem is that if you want to see Xena and Hercules actually share any amount of screen time you will be disappointed it feels like they took half script from shows and smashed them together. Xena and Gabrielle go to the Underworld to steal Hades' invisibility helmet and learn that Hades has tricked Xena's dead son into coming to Tartus (the ancient Greek version of Hell) because he can see what a life in which Xena was actually acts like the mother he wanted. Xena of course doesn't like this and now has to rescue her son's soul and put him in Elysium (the ancient Greek version of Heaven), steal the helmet and get out of Tartus before she has Eve. While Hercules and Hera go after the rib bones of Cronus, Zeus' father, to make into a weapon because it's one of the few things that can kill a god. Like I said this the best thing that they wrote that IMHO doesn't totally suck. Now as executive producers they are pretty good with movies like Eagle Eye and Now You See Me are more to watch than any of their written drek and Transformers: Prime speaks for itself.

Sadly I want to return to original Star Trek Universe and leave their convoluted mess in trash. I think the original Star Trek Universe has plenty of stories left to tell and a setting a new TV series in that Universe say about 100 years after the events of Nemesis and what happened to Spock.

Warcry
2015-11-17, 08:26 PM
Yeah, I'd rather see something set in the original universe than the movie one as well. I don't think it's all that likely, though, while the movies are still going.

He was originally supposed to be science officer (and sit in the third seat in the centre, I think someone realised that without a place on the bridge Troi basically wouldn't be in the show. Then he was supposed to be walking about the rear consoles like Worf does in season 1), but make up and costume tests showed the gold skin and the blue uniform didn't mesh well together visually so they made up a new position for him.
Yeah, I remember hearing that as well. It's a shame they didn't just stick to their guns and go with it, since he would have made way more sense in that role.

Why they just didn't change the colour of science (after all, you could argue it's as close to engineering as it is to medical) when they mucked about with some of the other colours in relation to the original series I'm not sure.
Speaking of, do we know why they swapped the colours for command and operations for TNG in the first place? I do like red better as the command colour, so I'm not complaining, but it seemed like an odd change to make.

Science officer is an obvious omission from the D's senior staff, with the whole exploration angle you'd have thought they'd have been more likely to make it than Dax on DS9.
Having Dax around made a ton of sense after they discovered the wormhole, but I've got no idea what a science officer was doing on a mission whose original specs were "rebuild Bajor and keep the Cardies from invading again". Though if Starfleet actually cared about rebuilding they would have sent a couple thousand engineers with industrial replicators, not Sisko and a handful of randoms.

Then again, whoever replaced her as science officer didn't get to be senior staff, but suddenly the psychiatrist did. I guess Sisko was just getting his mate on staff meetings (plus, when was the last time Jadzia did something science-ey before she died anyway?).
I'd hazard a guess that they didn't even bother to fill the position until after the war ended, since there's not much point to having a science staff on hand when the place they were supposed to do science on is currently hostile territory.

As you say, Jadzia wasn't really the science officer in anything but name by the time she died. Once the war broke out she seemed to have more or less inherited Worf's job (strategic command stuff, plus Defiant XO) on account of Worf spending most of his time flying around on Klingon ships as a liason/aide to Martok.

Actually, they really should have put her in a red shirt when Sisko got promoted to Ross's staff and she landed in command of Defiant. I would say that Starfleet understandably had bigger things to worry about, but they went and made Nog an ensign a couple episodes later, so maybe not...

Actually, did we ever see another Operations Officer? Was Harry Kim one? Jesus, that is a shit job. Poor old Data.
Kim was one too, though he had even less to do since Tuvok and Seven did a lot more science than he did. If memory serves he mostly answered the space-phone and gave exposition.

O'Brien was "Chief of Operations", but he actually had a well-defined role as the station's top maintenance/repair guy. In his case it actually made sense though, since it would have been a bit confusing to call him "Chief Engineer" of a facility that didn't have engines.

What's especially daft is, the moment he actually chooses to go back to is probably the single worst moment he could have picked. "I'd like to be stuck under than rock getting shot at again!"
The fact that he went back only to get his ass kicked again and get Kirk killed off for real in the process is the cherry on top of that delicious cake of stupidity.

Maybe he could even point out to Soran that he (and Kirk, and the other refugees Scotty didn't rescue. And Guinan's ghost or whatever that was) got into the Nexus in the first place by flying into it on a ship, so just ignore Data and do that again. Or even just jump in a space suit and float in rather than blowing up a bloody planet.
That's probably the biggest plot hole. Obviously the ship blowing up isn't enough to kill you if you're already inside the Nexus, since Kirk survived. So, yeah...the plan makes no sense.

I mean, worst-case scenario, why not just get someone to beam you into it?

The Questor Tapes is out on DVD here, I keep meaning to give it a watch to see how much of Data was recycled beyond the "Robot" idea. Plus him being played by Robert "Ratchet" Foxworth is good fun.
Minus ten nerd points for calling him "Ratchet" and not "Admiral Layton" in the Trek thread. But I agree, he'd be interesting in a role like that.

Presumably he had a ship inbetween, I think him mentioning running away very fast in it from the Cardassians during the war in The Wounded is about the only clue we get.
I assumed that was the Stargazer. Did they give dates that made that impossible?

I would like to be able to say something like "Starfleet probably wouldn't give him another ship right away after he lost the first one, especially to a foe as humiliating as the Ferengi", but Generations managed to make him lose his ship in an even worse way to an even sillier foe, so...yeah, probably. :(

The main thing I don't like about the E is the bridge. It feels very ill defined in comparison to any of the others, I don't really have a clue what any of the stations do, and the slightly relaxed layout of the consoles means it feels a bit slapdash (Riker and Troi and to slightly face Picard at all times? There's an ego).
The -E bridge is definitely an eyesore. It manages to look both too roomy and too cramped at the same time, due to having a huge footprint but losing so much useable space to those ugly support beams. And I agree that I've got no clue what station is for what, other than the obvious (and oddly small) helm/ops up front. I'm not a huge fan of stations that don't have chairs either, and it seems like this design has the most of those (at least the -D's rear consoles had pull-out seats for when you needed to sit there for a long time!)

The only other bridge that comes as close to not quite working is Voyager. Having one centre seat works. Having three centre seats works. Two, especially two that a little off centre, doesn't work.
Agreed! Voyager's bridge layout is actually really good aside from that, but the weird arrangement of the captain/XO chairs just doesn't work for me. It's like they designed the whole thing with only one chair in mind and realized after the fact that they needed somewhere to put Chakotay. Though considering how little they did with him, I'm not sure anyone would have noticed if they hadn't...

Interesting, I'd read the higher ups nixed the idea for cost reasons. Nog probably deserved to be a regular as well (and as actual Star Fleet it would have been easier to write him into every episode as well). It's amazing that in comparison Token on Enterprise got to be a regular for four seasons.
Is it sad that I have no idea who you mean by "token", since that could easily refer to at least three people in the Enterprise cast who never had anything to do but stand around being [insert applicable ethnicity]? Are we talking Token Brit, Token Asian or Token Black?

inflatable dalek
2015-11-18, 01:55 PM
Speaking of, do we know why they swapped the colours for command and operations for TNG in the first place? I do like red better as the command colour, so I'm not complaining, but it seemed like an odd change to make.

I think Thesis just thought it looked better on Stewart IIRC. It's certainly hard to imagine him in gold (he looks weird in blue in Tapestry!).



As you say, Jadzia wasn't really the science officer in anything but name by the time she died. Once the war broke out she seemed to have more or less inherited Worf's job (strategic command stuff, plus Defiant XO) on account of Worf spending most of his time flying around on Klingon ships as a liason/aide to Martok.

Worf is another who has just been given a made up job just because Ben likes him. How did the show cope without a strategic operations officer for three years hey? I think it's the one where he's stepping on Odo's toes that we get a ridged definition of what one does (coordinating Federation activity in the vicinity), which is something we pretty much never see him do. It's lucky for him Kira winds up forgetting she's XO on the Defiant during season 3 (despite this making no sense as she's not Star Fleet) and lets him start doing all that stuff.


O'Brien was "Chief of Operations", but he actually had a well-defined role as the station's top maintenance/repair guy. In his case it actually made sense though, since it would have been a bit confusing to call him "Chief Engineer" of a facility that didn't have engines.

It does fly about in the pilot though!

O'Brien's job was a blatant "Chief is basically his first name, we can't promote him to a job that means people will have to stop calling him that! Best make him a NCO as well whilst we're at it" thing.



I mean, worst-case scenario, why not just get someone to beam you into it?

Or put him in a space suit.


Minus ten nerd points for calling him "Ratchet" and not "Admiral Layton" in the Trek thread. But I agree, he'd be interesting in a role like that.

General Hague surely?

[When googling to check the name of the Babylon 5 character I discovered he was married to Elisabeth Montgomery. Good work there Ratchet.]


I assumed that was the Stargazer. Did they give dates that made that impossible?

Just checking the episode on Dailymotion, and he doesn't specify when it happened so I suppose if you assume it predated the war then it would be the Stargazer (which is what Memory Alpha seems to do), though as that was the last time he was in the sector that would mean he basically managed to miss the entire war. Just like he did with the Dominion, no commitment that man. It's bizare he's go straight from just sort of hanging about to commanding the most important ship the fleet so I can't see there not being another command inbetween.


The -E bridge is definitely an eyesore. It manages to look both too roomy and too cramped at the same time, due to having a huge footprint but losing so much useable space to those ugly support beams. And I agree that I've got no clue what station is for what, other than the obvious (and oddly small) helm/ops up front. I'm not a huge fan of stations that don't have chairs either, and it seems like this design has the most of those (at least the -D's rear consoles had pull-out seats for when you needed to sit there for a long time!)

I think part of the problem might be that they clearly wanted to get away from the TNG look but at the same time are trying to evoke the familar feel of the series, so it's harder and more milataristic but still got the browns and and carpets going on.

More of the D did survive into the E than you might expect though, sets that weren't destroyed/heavily reworked for Voyager were the observation lounge, officer quarters and one of the corridors (or all the bits bar the tiny bit of wall for Ten Forward seen in the last Enterprise episode in other words) are all effectively the same.

According to the Okuda commentary on the blu ray (which is horribly white washed, the only mention of any behind the scenes fiction is Baird not liking a model in Picard's ready room) the bridge was pretty much ****ed by being shook around for real during Nemesis and they'd have had to make a new set for any fifth film.

The odd thing about the E interior it that is was specifically designed to the needs of the script, something I don't think was the case with any of the other hero ships. So there's an airlock on the bridge because they need to go walking on the hull and engineering is just a big room with a warp core in it to make the transformation easier and there's an awful lot of different coridoor designs so as to make journeys through the ship more visually interesting and so on.

Agreed! Voyager's bridge layout is actually really good aside from that, but the weird arrangement of the captain/XO chairs just doesn't work for me. It's like they designed the whole thing with only one chair in mind and realized after the fact that they needed somewhere to put Chakotay. Though considering how little they did with him, I'm not sure anyone would have noticed if they hadn't...

The security guy is in a little alcove isn't he? That seems a design flaw, did no one learn from all those times Worf had to do a little jog to the point where he could jump over the barrier keeping him separate from the captain?


Is it sad that I have no idea who you mean by "token", since that could easily refer to at least three people in the Enterprise cast who never had anything to do but stand around being [insert applicable ethnicity]? Are we talking Token Brit, Token Asian or Token Black?

The token Actual Good Actor Being Wasted in Scott Bakula of course.

Ryan F
2015-11-18, 06:52 PM
I think Thesis just thought it looked better on Stewart IIRC. It's certainly hard to imagine him in gold (he looks weird in blue in Tapestry!).

Great auto-correct fail there!

I always assumed that the red=command thing came from the old movie uniforms, where everybody important wore red?

inflatable dalek
2015-12-15, 09:12 PM
Star Trek Beyond trailer!:

XRVD32rnzOw

To which fandom has reacted in a way that makes it second only to Transformers fans in how much they want their films to feel like they were made in the '80's.

I'd certainly say it's not an especially exciting trailer, which might not otherwise be a problem for a teaser if not for the fact it's been the year of bloomin' excellent teaser trailers with Star Wars, Bond and even ID4 2 all knocking them out of the park. Other than the McCoy bit there's not a huge amount to grab you there.

But, an actual strange new world, new aliens and (seemingly) not a Khan rehash as the last three films have been to various degrees. Basically everything the fandom have been demanding since the last film came out. So of course, the response has been "WAHHH WAHHHH WAHHHHH" beyond all rationality.

My main beef with the very little sense you get of the actual plot is--whilst the idea of them being cut off from the ship and stranded on the planet is an interesting one--wrecking the Enterprise again to do it seems idiotically OTT. What do they make starships out of anyway?

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-15, 09:15 PM
Big fan of them using Sabotage in the trailer.

Because, being Star Trek, I can't stand it.

AHTHANKYOU AHTHANKYOU!

Don't watch that film, watch another film! This is the heavy heavy monster sound. STAR TREK BEYOND. NA NA NA...

Tetsuro
2015-12-16, 01:41 AM
whilst the idea of them being cut off from the ship and stranded on the planet is an interesting one
So the question is "is it better than Basics?"

Also, next up on my TNG rewatch; Journey's End. In the words of Q, this is not a moment I've been looking forward to.

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-12-16, 07:13 PM
Star Trek Beyond trailer!:

XRVD32rnzOw

To which fandom has reacted in a way that makes it second only to Transformers fans in how much they want their films to feel like they were made in the '80's.

I'd certainly say it's not an especially exciting trailer, which might not otherwise be a problem for a teaser if not for the fact it's been the year of bloomin' excellent teaser trailers with Star Wars, Bond and even ID4 2 all knocking them out of the park. Other than the McCoy bit there's not a huge amount to grab you there.

But, an actual strange new world, new aliens and (seemingly) not a Khan rehash as the last three films have been to various degrees. Basically everything the fandom have been demanding since the last film came out. So of course, the response has been "WAHHH WAHHHH WAHHHHH" beyond all rationality.


This is actually the first of time since the reboot I find myself actually kind of excited to see a new Star Trek movie, mostly because I find it looks exciting and some of it is that yeah I think Justin Lin is a much better than director than Abrams, who IMHO feels like the only thing he can do is copy the styles of other (and often better) directors than he is.


What do they make starships out of anyway?

Cardboard and toilet paper. :p

Warcry
2015-12-16, 07:35 PM
You know what strikes me the most about that trailer? The fact that we're seeing the Enterprise getting wrecked and it doesn't stir any feelings in me at all.

The Trek TV shows always did a great job of making the ship into practically another character, and losing the ship was in many ways a bigger deal than losing a main cast member. The movie designs have a harder time making that connection because we don't spend nearly as much time with them, but even then I still have a bit of affection for the TOS movie refit or the E-E. But the Abramsverse ship? I couldn't care less. We practically never see any part of it aside from the bridge and their silly, industrial engine room, sets that have no personality to them at all.

Denyer
2015-12-16, 08:55 PM
"What the hell is this?" indeed.

They're doing an increasingly poor job of feeling like anything other than generic action films.

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-16, 09:01 PM
Speaking as somebody who's apathetic toward Trek but loves generic action movies (ie the exact person they seem to be targetting) not even I'm at the give-a-shit level.

inflatable dalek
2015-12-18, 04:29 PM
Yeah, it's just a very average/generic trailer.

You know what strikes me the most about that trailer? The fact that we're seeing the Enterprise getting wrecked and it doesn't stir any feelings in me at all.

The Trek TV shows always did a great job of making the ship into practically another character, and losing the ship was in many ways a bigger deal than losing a main cast member. The movie designs have a harder time making that connection because we don't spend nearly as much time with them, but even then I still have a bit of affection for the TOS movie refit or the E-E. But the Abramsverse ship? I couldn't care less. We practically never see any part of it aside from the bridge and their silly, industrial engine room, sets that have no personality to them at all.

Strange to think actually this Enterprise is now as old as the E was when Nemesis came out. I think the 09 film was the only one since Star Trek V not to end with the Enterprise having taken so much punishment she's either immediately retired; destroyed or having to undergo a major repair job (though as least in First Contact the damage was more interior than blowing holes in the hull).

Interestingly as part of the directors defence of the trailer, he talks about the Enterprise as if she's destroyed outright rather than just very badly damaged. Which seems a bit OTT unless someone really hates the design. Normally I'd say the crew all winding up being assigned to the inevitable Enterprise A would stretch credulity, but with the way Star Fleet works in the new films it makes as much sense as anything.

I'm more curious as to how they're going to get Shatner into this, it's going to happen surely?

Brendocon 2.0
2015-12-18, 06:17 PM
The internet did the thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr_1K5YOAq0&feature=youtu.be

Sades
2015-12-19, 12:27 AM
Star Wars is everywhere. People be lining up for days to see this shit. Am I the only one thinking "Calmthe****down, it's just a movie"?

Disclaimer on this being that I don't think anyone should give two shits about my opinion on what I think they should do (am aware can be dick). However, I'll be glad when this collective madness passes so that I can enjoy my movie experience without rubbing shoulders with Chewie or Han or a Jawa or whatever in the movie theatre.

/crusty old fart

inflatable dalek
2015-12-19, 12:34 AM
Did I mention that Star Wars has booked up Pinewood for a decade so they can do a film a year for that long? It never ends!

Cyberstrike nTo
2015-12-19, 12:43 AM
Star Wars is everywhere. People be lining up for days to see this shit. Am I the only one thinking "Calmthe****down, it's just a movie"?

Disclaimer on this being that I don't think anyone should give two shits about my opinion on what I think they should do (am aware can be dick). However, I'll be glad when this collective madness passes so that I can enjoy my movie experience without rubbing shoulders with Chewie or Han or a Jawa or whatever in the movie theatre.

/crusty old fart

I guess I'm casual Star Wars fan at best I like all 6 of the previous film (in order from favorite to least 6,3,5,2,1,4) some of the early DH comics and KOTOR 1 (which IMHO has a far better story than any of the films) but they are all at best good-to-above average movies. I've never got what the big deal about any of them was. From what I've seen and read about Star Wars 7 hasn't inspired me to give a damn about it anyway.

Some of it is that I'm been burned out on Star Wars 7 all year do due the over-hype, I just can't seem to be bothered to care about it and believe me I've tried to care about it but nothing has appealed to me. None of the new Star Wars comics from Marvel despite having some creators that I'm a huge fan of involved with them I can't seem to give a damn. I hate MP games in general so I have no desire to play Star Wars: Battlefront. Since I don't have cable or satellite TV I can't watch any of the new shows unless I stream over services like XBL or PSN and I don't have the money for that.

I've tried to watch the previous films outside of the documentary Empire of Dreams and Return of the Jedi I don't think I can sit through them without going to sleep. Honestly the only movie that is coming out that I would like to see is The Hateful 8 and I'm about the same with QT as I'm with Star Wars.

The Star Trek: Beyond and ID4: Resurgence trailers are far more exciting for me to watch than any of the Star Wars films are and I would rather watch them right here and now than Star Wars 7.

inflatable dalek
2016-01-08, 04:54 PM
So I've started rewatching TOS. In production order!

It is actually easy to forget how good these early episodes are, Mudd's Women (only Roddenberry would create a comedy sex trafficker. And remember how Pike wanted to be one in The Cage?) is the only weak one of the 8 I've watched so far and the others stand up remarkably well considering each is basically a blueprint for a type of SF TV episode that's been remade countless times since (including by Trek of course).

The rape stuff in Enemy Within is just horrible though.

Tetsuro
2016-01-14, 10:03 AM
As far as I'm concerned, the only episode in the entire series to be completely unwatchable is Omega Glory.

Meanwhile I've also been watching Star Trek in production order, and I just watched Generations. It's kind of weird, despite my misgivings towards that film, it's probably the only Next Generation movie that actually feels like a Next Generation movie. The fact that it was made shortly after the series ended probably helped. I want to say it's because the other TNG movies "feel" more like DS9 or even Voyager stylistically, but in the other hand it might just be because the film still takes place on 1701-D.

A lot of people criticized killing off the Duras sisters, but to be honest, their story was pretty much done by the time TNG ended. It's killing off Picard's brother's family off-screen solely for pathos that I have a much bigger problem with.

inflatable dalek
2016-01-15, 04:39 PM
Hey, remember how Riker captured the Duras sisters towards the end of season 7 and just let them go on their merry way at the end? Bet he regretted that afterwards.

Scotty not only breaks the laws of physics (though sadly he actually clearly says "I cannot break the laws of physics" rather than "I cannnnaeee"), he then invents time travel in The Naked Time by complete accident. Dude has mad skills, no wonder the Pegg version came up with transwarp beaming whilst drunk off his skull.

inflatable dalek
2016-01-29, 11:19 AM
Finished season 1 today. Blimey, even with it going out on a bit of a whimper with Flying Pancakes of Death, that's a season of TV with an amazing hit rate. Iconic, quality episode after iconic quality episode with only really three unsuccessful ones (Mudd, Alternative Factor and the pancakes) out of 29. I don't think Trek in any of its forms quite managed that hit rate again.

inflatable dalek
2016-02-05, 02:12 PM
I guess Warcry's got better things to do. But like Scotty when he murdered all those prostitutes, I cannot be stopped!

Interesting piece on the effort to restore the original Enterprise that the Smithsonian is currently undertaking (apparently previous restoration jobs--plus hanging it from the ceeling--haven't been too kind to the old girl):

http://blog.nasm.si.edu/conservation/uss-enterprise-conservation-begins/

Though I knew the lighting needed for the matt effects meant the model never looked the colour it was in real life on screen, I hadn't realised just how different it was from the bleached out white we're familiar with.

And even if it's a bit of a Trigger's broom when it comes to original parts now, it's amazing the model survived after the show was cancelled at all (or indeed that they managed to make close to a season and a half of the series without taking any new shots of it). Presumably it was put into storage in case they needed it again after Tribbles, got forgotten about after the cancellation and when it was finally dug out in the early 70's the show had taken off enough in syndication to make it seem an interesting artefact rather than a piece of now redundant tat from a dead series?

Warcry
2016-02-05, 04:08 PM
I guess Warcry's got better things to do. But like Scotty when he murdered all those prostitutes, I cannot be stopped!
More like I don't remember enough about TOS to really comment on your last few posts. Should really sit down and watch it proper-like one day.

Is this the time he was possessed by Jack the Ripper? Don't think I've ever seen that one, but I vaguely remember reading a novelization of it when I was a teen.

Interesting article! You're right, it's a pleasant surprise that the model is still around because back in the 60s and 70s they didn't have the same "keep this stuff forever just in case!" attitude towards relics from cult shows that we do now.

Also, every single time I see pictures of the studio models I'm absolutely floored by how big they are! I've never really understood why they'd go to all that trouble with a TV show model, especially back in the 60s when the screens were so low-quality that they could have gotten away with using something a quarter the size or less. In fact, didn't the crew buy up a bunch of the old foot and a bit long Ertl kits, paint them up nicely and film them for one of the episodes that featured multiple Constitution-class ships?

inflatable dalek
2016-02-05, 04:20 PM
Is this the time he was possessed by Jack the Ripper? Don't think I've ever seen that one, but I vaguely remember reading a novelization of it when I was a teen.

Well, Kirk keeps insisting it's Jack the Ripper. Not entirely convincingly.

That's probably the episode with the (thinks on it...) second most dated treatment of women in the whole series. "Scotty, a woman caused your accident and now as a result you must visit a prostitute to be cured!".

Kirk is way to keen to go to a better brothel as well. Even at the end of the episode when they've literally had dead prostitutes up to their ears. Surely Captain Kirk doesn't need to pay for sex?

That's what Spock is for.

It is amusing that Jack is played by Piglet from Winnie the Pooh though.


Also, every single time I see pictures of the studio models I'm absolutely floored by how big they are! I've never really understood why they'd go to all that trouble with a TV show model, especially back in the 60s when the screens were so low-quality that they could have gotten away with using something a quarter the size or less. In fact, didn't the crew buy up a bunch of the old foot and a bit long Ertl kits, paint them up nicely and film them for one of the episodes that featured multiple Constitution-class ships?

I guess doing the interior lights required a certain size in those days?

The AMT kit did get used for the twatted Constitution in the Doomsday Machine (and stock footage of it may have been used in the Ultimate Computer as a result, though I think mostly in that one it's just sticking the same shot of the main model into the picture four times), and you can actually tell it's much less detailed and solid than the big boy.

It's actually a shame the effects footage is so grainy due to the multiple exposures (hence the CGI effects for TV HD broadcasts), I suspect most of the ship shots would actually stand up pretty well. It's just a shame that they used stock footage from the pilots with the slightly different model throughout the series, once you notice those different nacelles you can't unsee them.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-02-06, 05:50 PM
So is it a common thing in the TOS "Full Journey" blu ray set that half the discs haven't been put in the packaging properly?

I mean I know the trays are a rubbish design to start with, but 50% of them being loose goes beyond transit drift.

inflatable dalek
2016-02-06, 06:24 PM
It's not a great box (mine is a bit battered now) and I can easily see how that would happen, but I've been lucky so far in that they were all in place when it arrived and they've not flopped out any time I've grabbed it since.

I can only assume you bought this for someone you hate.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-02-06, 06:51 PM
If I buy all of them it gets them off the market and stops anybody else being exposed.

It's a public service.

Future Youtube series in which I find exciting ways to destroy Star Trek.

Basically aiming to make that episode of Futurama a reality.

inflatable dalek
2016-02-06, 07:49 PM
Well if you ever go mad and decide to watch it, I'd recommend going with production order rather than the broadcast order the discs are in, for season 1 at least (once the show's style and characterisation has settled down it doesn't really matter):


http://www.imdb.com/list/ls058233287//


(Possibly might be best to leave the original pilot-which is on the season 3 set--till last though as the clip show that reuses most of it comes up pretty quickly.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-02-06, 08:00 PM
Broadcast order was fine for me when I watched it a few years ago.

Though I am going to have to write myself a note to put in my Unearthly Child DVD reminding me that the rubbish version of episode 1 autoplays at the beginning of the set...

inflatable dalek
2016-02-06, 11:23 PM
Broadcast order was fine for me when I watched it a few years ago.


I'm so sorry, I've been confusing you with a poster of a very similar name.

Tetsuro
2016-02-08, 05:38 AM
Well I bought the Full Journey box sets of TNG, DS9 and Voyager last year when I went mad myself.

It's kind of weird, I'd thought for years that the box sets would be far too expensive for me to acquire - mostly because they were, y'know, with the individual seasons costing more than these entire box sets cost me now. The only complete series I'd bought until then were TOS, which was only three seasons anyway, and the 20th anniversary DVD box set TNG which I bought because I had a lot of spare currency at the time.

The TNG remastered set was actually cheaper than that thing, but still quite expensive, but once I'd got that out of the way, the 90ish euro online stores wanted for DS9 and Voyager didn't seem so much.

So now I can finally watch them all in broadcast order, I've already finished season 1 of Voyager and much to my surprise I haven't hated it - probably because the endless cocktease plots about easy ways to get home fast weren't even half as prevalent as I'd remembered.

Warcry
2016-02-08, 06:55 PM
It's kind of weird, I'd thought for years that the box sets would be far too expensive for me to acquire - mostly because they were, y'know, with the individual seasons costing more than these entire box sets cost me now.
Wish these were available here. :( Well, available here for less than the cost of importing them for an arm and a leg, anyway. Most Canadian sellers seem to want two or three times what you said you paid. And the individual box sets, in the handful of places that still have them, are $80 or $90.

So now I can finally watch them all in broadcast order, I've already finished season 1 of Voyager and much to my surprise I haven't hated it - probably because the endless cocktease plots about easy ways to get home fast weren't even half as prevalent as I'd remembered.
Now, admittedly it was a long time ago and I was pretty young, but I definitely thought that the first couple seasons of Voyager were enjoyable when I watched them at the time. After that the show was starting to disappoint me in comparison to DS9, since the latter was becoming more story-driven and making Voyager look a bit like a relic of days gone by. But it wasn't until the series became all about the Borg mid-way through that I actually started to think it was bad.

Tetsuro
2016-02-08, 07:08 PM
I just finished the episode of DS9 where Jadzia meets all the previous hosts of Dax.

What really bugged me about was the behaviour of Joran, the killer. Sisko takes him on and he acts the most obviously creepy cartoon villain psycho you can imagine, but in the episode where his existence was established, there was little hint of his personality, only that he was a host for a whole year - but if that was how he was like, you'd think someone had noticed!

inflatable dalek
2016-02-08, 07:53 PM
Mirror Mirror... How did Uhura get abs like that sitting in a chair all day? Blimey.

Unicron
2016-02-09, 06:10 PM
I just finished the episode of DS9 where Jadzia meets all the previous hosts of Dax.

What really bugged me about was the behaviour of Joran, the killer. Sisko takes him on and he acts the most obviously creepy cartoon villain psycho you can imagine, but in the episode where his existence was established, there was little hint of his personality, only that he was a host for a whole year - but if that was how he was like, you'd think someone had noticed!

I would assume that, like most any sociopath, he kept the cartoon villain persona under wraps when dealing with normal people. But since Jadzia already knew all about it, he was free to ham it up.

inflatable dalek
2016-02-09, 08:24 PM
Bryan Fuller from offa Hannible and Pushing Daisies (and also a DS9 and Voyager writer) co-creator of the new show:

http://tvline.com/2016/02/09/bryan-fuller-star-trek-cbs-creator-showrunner/

So expect critical acclaim and unexpected cancellation. Anna Friel for captain!

Tetsuro
2016-02-21, 12:48 AM
Non Sequitur!

Harry Kim wakes up and finds himself back on earth, San Fransisco, sleeping with his girlfriend. And rather than doing the sensible thing and being straight with Starfleet at critical moments - like just giving them a straight bloody answer about why he went to see Tom Paris - he just acts like an idiot so he can instead become a fugitive. Because it's more dramatic that way.

Cyberstrike nTo
2016-02-21, 01:57 PM
Non Sequitur!

Harry Kim wakes up and finds himself back on earth, San Fransisco, sleeping with his girlfriend. And rather than doing the sensible thing and being straight with Starfleet at critical moments - like just giving them a straight bloody answer about why he went to see Tom Paris - he just acts like an idiot so he can instead become a fugitive. Because it's more dramatic that way.

Because as far as Starfleet was concerned Tom Paris was a traitor and terrorist and all loyal Starfleet officers would never have anything to do with him.

Of course Kim being an idiot was a problem because Garrett Wang and one of the show's producers (I forget which one) hated each other.

Tetsuro
2016-02-21, 02:00 PM
Because as far as Starfleet was concerned Tom Paris was a traitor and terrorist and all loyal Starfleet officers would never have anything to do with him.
None of which would have been a problem if he had been straight with them since the beginning. "I went to see an old friend" was the best he could come up with?

He never even goes to see a medic about his memories being tampered with, despite that clearly being an option in regards to getting some answers.

inflatable dalek
2016-03-04, 04:24 PM
Into season 3!

Watching in production order has the advantage of the first handful of episodes actually being quite good and lush looking (a Klingon ship at last!). It's only with And the Children Shall Lead things start to derail badly.

And who had the idea of adding a cave to the planet surface set which they then feel obliged to use in every episode, making the extent to which it is just the same set with a different coloured sky every time even more obvious?

I actually fell asleep during Spock's Brain, just after the woman pulled a phaser out of her vagina.

I also love the look of the Tholian Web, despite the budget cuts that's got some great visuals (though how do the Tholians catch ships that aren't forced to stay still?).

What's annoying though is this episode must be one of the first bits of SF TV to use the idea of adjacent universes for something other than Evil Alternate Timeline stories. So Enterprise coming along and going "Ha, the Defiant actually went to the Mirror Universe!" is just five hundred extra levels of shit.

Tetsuro
2016-03-04, 05:42 PM
Spock's Brain is great for the 60's sci-fi "girls in gogo boots" cheese.

It's kind of funny that it's also the only episode to make use of a background projected viewscreen so you could actually have characters walk in front of it.

...and the only movie to make use of it was Star Trek V.

Patapsco
2016-03-22, 09:00 PM
Right chaps, was there an episode of TOS which had, and I feel like an idiot for writing this, but some sort of pancake type alien or was I doing acid aged 4?

Sades
2016-03-22, 09:39 PM
Right chaps, was there an episode of TOS which had, and I feel like an idiot for writing this, but some sort of pancake type alien or was I doing acid aged 4?

Crêpedassians (http://saipancakes.com/2012/12/star-trek.html) :o

http://www.tor.com/2009/07/14/lemgstar-treklemg-re-watch-operationannihilate/ ?

Patapsco
2016-03-22, 09:53 PM
I think that's it, but I definitely remember them looking more, well, pancakey

Tetsuro
2016-03-22, 10:07 PM
Just watched the DS9 episode "Paradise Lost". Sisko is reading off a list of Starfleet officers, one of whose name is "Snowden", which is kind of funny, especially in the context.

Sades
2016-03-22, 10:24 PM
I think that's it, but I definitely remember them looking more, well, pancakey

I don't think they can get any more pancake-y. They're literally pancakes.

What? ... ohhh.

inflatable dalek
2016-03-23, 08:04 PM
Finished TOS. Boy the last third of season 3 is a profaced slog. The show is desperately missing Gene Coon's humour at this point, especially considering how ludicrous some of the plots are on paper.

Still, at least we finally and firmly know women should accept their place in life lest the attempt to do a man's job send them crazy.

I'd be inclined to say Janice Lester's partner is Trek's first and only bisexual human character as he seems unbothered about his lover mind swapping with a man. But then this is an episode where the villain who replaces Captain Kirk records how they've gotten away with it and no one will ever know in the ship's official log, so it's probably just not thought through very well.

Currently coming up to the halfway mark of the Animated series. Which really shows why Transformers seemed like high art in the early 80's, previous American action cartoons were just rubbish. For a 22 minute show (with long credits that are played in full twice) even the best episodes drag quite badly.

inflatable dalek
2016-04-01, 04:09 PM
I'm onto the films! Which means Warcry might start paying attention again.

With TMP, my thoughts haven't really changed since writing THIS (http://thesolarpool.weebly.com/blog/star-trek-vger-tmp-review) so I'll just share again with the added proviso that everything Decker says and does is now much more sinister now we now the actor is a child molester.

Khan is just...awesome isn't it. And Ricardo shows exactly how the play that part, there's the anger and over the top fury but he knows when to play it deadly straight as well. Cumberbatch can jog on.

Warcry
2016-04-01, 06:45 PM
I'm onto the films! Which means Warcry might start paying attention again.
I tried to, but I fell asleep as soon as you mentioned The Motionless Picture. :(

But seriously though, your review of the movie, while being infinitely more entertaining than the movie itself, concisely points out just why TMP was such a disaster. It actually reminds me of the modern Transformers movies in a lot of ways: a big-budget movie based on a TV show that used to be popular relying on expensive special effects to cover up for an awful script, with a few actors in it that are way better than the material they're given, running for 45 minutes longer than it had any right to. But add in a po-faced, hyper-philosophical Roddenberry who was well into his utopian communist phase, and instead of 2+ hours of dumb action you get 2+ hours of him trying so, so hard to make a point. TMP is probably a better film than any of the TF movies from an artistic standpoint, but it's just about the least entertaining piece of entertainment I've ever seen.

(The novelization is unintentionally hilarious, though.)

The Wrath of Khan is great, you're right. Montalban is fantastic obviously, but I actually think Kirstie Alley is the guest star with the most impact here. Saavik steps so smoothly into the cast and crew that it's like she's always been there, and it's a terrible shame they recast the character with a plank of wood for the next movie. Shatner, Nimoy and Kelly are all easily at their best here too.

Tetsuro
2016-04-02, 05:47 AM
But add in a po-faced, hyper-philosophical Roddenberry who was well into his utopian communist phase, and instead of 2+ hours of dumb action you get 2+ hours of him trying so, so hard to make a point. TMP is probably a better film than any of the TF movies from an artistic standpoint
That'd explain why I like it so much.

inflatable dalek
2016-04-02, 02:52 PM
I tried to, but I fell asleep as soon as you mentioned The Motionless Picture. :(

Inflatable Dalek: Sending Warcry to sleep since 2004.

It actually reminds me of the modern Transformers movies

It actually put me in mind of the '86 film, a movie put together by a bunch of people without any rules for follow on how to turn a series into a motion picture and making all sorts of clearly insane choices as a result.

(The novelization is unintentionally hilarious, though.)

"Spock and I are just friends, REALLY".

The Wrath of Khan is great, you're right. Montalban is fantastic obviously, but I actually think Kirstie Alley is the guest star with the most impact here. Saavik steps so smoothly into the cast and crew that it's like she's always been there, and it's a terrible shame they recast the character with a plank of wood for the next movie.

I'm slightly baffled that I didn't fancy the ears off Kirstie Alley when I was a teenager, she just smoulders and there's a bit where they come back from the Genesis cave where she just sort of shrugs her uniform jacket on that's worryingly sexy.

That's me channeling my inner Roddenberry.

Curtis makes the same mistake so many people playing Vulcans do and does the emotionless thing to the point of not acting. Though apparently Nimoy wasn't hugely bothered in meeting Alley's pay request (had Cheers started prior to III? I always thought it was later for that. I can sort of see the point of them not wanting to pay her more than some of the established regulars) as he hadn't liked her performance, and--at least according to Curtis on the blu ray features--he directed her reactions very closely to make sure that lines like "David is dead" were said in that completely flat way.

Shatner, Nimoy and Kelly are all easily at their best here too.

I think Shatner is genuinely very good in the first three, certainly much better than he was in season 3 (I think as a theatre trained actor he's at his best with lots of rehearsal and preparation time, so it's unsurprising his acting declined as the shooting schedule shrank. I think Nick Meyer has said he'd just make Bill do take after take after take till he stopped trying so hard), especially in TMP where his gradually warming up and becoming more relaxed performance does more to complete Kirk's character arc than the script does.

Speaking of III... Christopher Lloyd is very good. The three key Enterprise moments are brilliant. Without Nimoy Trek gets to become an ensemble piece for the first time (Uhura gets the least to do and she still winds up with more dialogue in her big scene than in all of II) and it doesn't outstay its welcome...

But it looks surprisingly cheap in places--as well as the unconvincing Genesis sets this is the first one where some of the ships look like models--they don't actually start searching for Spock until ten minutes before the end of the film and find him instantly and it just feels very placid. You could probably get away with a film that much like a TV episode when there was no Trek on TV, if this had been a TNG film it would have been slaughtered.

It's curious how the Excelsior is very obviously a more expensive and detailed model that the Grissom even though they must both get about the same screentime. They must have been seriously considering it becoming the hero ship (you can see the reveal at the end of IV being that they've renamed it "Enterprise").

inflatable dalek
2016-04-05, 07:17 PM
Star Trek IV: Still good fun stuff that holds together much better than anything trying that hard to ride the coattails of Back to the Future should. It's surprising how well most of the jokes still work (though I guess we watch it more from Kirk and co's viewpoint these days) and going for something that different was a brave choice that paid off.

It just makes you wish the film makers would occasionally say to each other in meetings "Remember when we did a funny one about whales without a proper villain and where the climactic final ship battle involved a sea trawler? And it was a massive success? Maybe we can leave the formula behind a bit more often?"

Star Trek V: "Remember where we did one when Kirk killed God? STICK TO THE FORMULA"

VI: And suddenly the characters are allowed to be their age again. The prison stuff sags a bit, but it's still huge fun and makes a serious point that still need making today.

Warcry
2016-04-05, 10:01 PM
It actually put me in mind of the '86 film, a movie put together by a bunch of people without any rules for follow on how to turn a series into a motion picture and making all sorts of clearly insane choices as a result.
That's a good comparison too, though I'd have to say that TFTM is about ten times the movie that TMP is.

"Spock and I are just friends, REALLY".
It's not even that, it's the footnotes EVERYWHERE like Roddenberry was completely incapable of integrating what he wanted to say into the actual story but still felt compelled to make sure everyone knew what he was thinking with each scene anyway.

Curtis makes the same mistake so many people playing Vulcans do and does the emotionless thing to the point of not acting. Though apparently Nimoy wasn't hugely bothered in meeting Alley's pay request (had Cheers started prior to III? I always thought it was later for that. I can sort of see the point of them not wanting to pay her more than some of the established regulars) as he hadn't liked her performance, and--at least according to Curtis on the blu ray features--he directed her reactions very closely to make sure that lines like "David is dead" were said in that completely flat way.
The Robin Curtis version of the character might have been passable if it had been a new character, too, but Saavik had shown in the previous film to be a very emotional person underneath her veneer of Vulcan control. As is, though, they're basically different people.

It's curious how the Excelsior is very obviously a more expensive and detailed model that the Grissom even though they must both get about the same screentime. They must have been seriously considering it becoming the hero ship (you can see the reveal at the end of IV being that they've renamed it "Enterprise").
I'm actually a bit surprised that they didn't do that. They put a lot of time and effort not just into making a really good filming model but also into telling us on-screen how awesome the ship was. To then basically do nothing with it until ST:VI, you'd have to think there was a change of plans in there somewhere.

But I'm okay with that, because it's perfectly fitting to give the crew of desiccated old fossils a ship that's just as old and over the hill as they are.

It's ironic that we see so little of the Excelsior-class in it's heyday, though, and so much of it in TNG and DS9 when it was eighty years old and reduced to second-line support work behind Ambassador- and Galaxy-class ships.

VI: And suddenly the characters are allowed to be their age again. The prison stuff sags a bit, but it's still huge fun and makes a serious point that still need making today.
Uhura not being able to speak Klingon still annoys me, but overall it's a great movie. And like you say, it's nice to see them acknowledge that the cast are old as hell, especially after the last few movies had the increasingly-frail cast running around like 20-something action heroes.

Tetsuro
2016-04-06, 10:46 PM
I'm actually a bit surprised that they didn't do that. They put a lot of time and effort not just into making a really good filming model but also into telling us on-screen how awesome the ship was. To then basically do nothing with it until ST:VI, you'd have to think there was a change of plans in there somewhere.
I think that was the plan - in fact, now that I think of it, they didn't just intend to give the crew an Excelsior-class Enterprise, but it was going to be the Excelsior - basically, they were trying to break the formula big time by having them fly a ship other than Enterprise (in fact, didn't they actually do this in the DC comics made after the third movie?), similarly to how the Doctor was going to actually fix the chameleon circuit in Attack of the Cybermen, but the producers decided against it.

Heinrad
2016-04-07, 01:00 AM
They did use the Excelsior in the DC comic run. They did the Mirror Universe epic, and because Styles completely blew it when going up against Mirror-Kirk and an obsolete Enterprise(yeah, he had the Mirror Universe guys completely outclassed on a technical level, but he wasn't bright enough to make sure the Klingon Bird of Prey he was towing inside of his shields was completely shut down), Starfleet put Kirk and company in charge of Excelsior's shakedown cruise, which lasted until they had to put everything in place for IV.

Spock was given his own command, and Saavik was Science Officer, with Sulu as First Officer.

And Sutton and Villegran really loved Kirstie's Saavik. She was the only one who bore more than a passing resemblance to the person who played the part. And I think she gained a cup size in the Mirror Universe storyline they never dropped afterwards.

inflatable dalek
2016-04-08, 12:59 PM
The Robin Curtis version of the character might have been passable if it had been a new character, too, but Saavik had shown in the previous film to be a very emotional person underneath her veneer of Vulcan control. As is, though, they're basically different people.

Skids, Saavik... you just don't like characters being reinvented do you?

;)


I'm actually a bit surprised that they didn't do that. They put a lot of time and effort not just into making a really good filming model but also into telling us on-screen how awesome the ship was. To then basically do nothing with it until ST:VI, you'd have to think there was a change of plans in there somewhere.

i know destroying the Enterprise was massively controversial at the time, it's easy to forget what an impact that must have had when it wasn't something that happened every other film. Just re-branding the old model probably seemed the safest bet to appease people.

Mind, I always get the impression they were just making it up as they went along so they may not have had any firm plans either way.


But I'm okay with that, because it's perfectly fitting to give the crew of desiccated old fossils a ship that's just as old and over the hill as they are.

I know people (rightly) just ignore the onscreen evidence and treat the A as a renamed old Constitution, but the dialogue in V makes it clear it's a new ship having shakedown problems ("This new Enterprise was put together by monkeys...").

I guess folks also ignore Scotty's lines that make it clear V happens right after IV (and thus right after II and III) despite everyone being so much older? I mean Jesus, what the **** happened to Scotty if it's been less than 12 months?

V is insane really in pissing over the "It's OK to get old" message of Khan. Captain Kirk is climbing a mountain! People want to see Uhura naked! Gah.


Uhura not being able to speak Klingon still annoys me, but overall it's a great movie. And like you say, it's nice to see them acknowledge that the cast are old as hell, especially after the last few movies had the increasingly-frail cast running around like 20-something action heroes.

The Klingon thing was never an issue for me because when did anyone in the original series ever show any knowledge of alien languages? You'd think Kirk would know the basics as well but he had to call for beam up parrot fashion in III (Kurge was also a bit odd in not sending someone who could speak english over to comandeer the Enterprise. Knowing a countdown might have saved their lives). They're just to reliant on the Universal Translator.

It's a bigger problem they're using books. I'd imnagine in 1991 you could get a handheld computer that could do basic translations for you, and no one would actually grab a phrasebook today (plus, why not just use the UT to translate the incoming message even if you can't use it for the reply?).

TNG Season 1! Three episodes in and it's already topped the entire original series for both sexism and racism. And that's just Code of Honor.

Warcry
2016-04-08, 04:51 PM
Skids, Saavik... you just don't like characters being reinvented do you?
Skids, Saavik, Shockwave, Spinister...don't you be touching my characters whose names start with "S"!

Mind, I always get the impression they were just making it up as they went along so they may not have had any firm plans either way.
That's probably what it came down to, yeah. I'm just surprised they spent so much of the effects budget on a super-detailed ship model that they had no firm plans for. It's not like today where they'll CGI up fifteen new models per movie for ships that only get five seconds on screen in the background.

I know people (rightly) just ignore the onscreen evidence and treat the A as a renamed old Constitution, but the dialogue in V makes it clear it's a new ship having shakedown problems ("This new Enterprise was put together by monkeys...").
I always assumed it was either a new build or at least a brand-new refit (a ship that had just gone through the rebuild that the 1701 finished at the start of TMP). But it's still nearly a 60 year old design by that point and the refits obviously didn't extend the life of the class the way they'd hoped, because the Enterprise went from being the shiny new jewel of the fleet to a scow used to train cadets inside of a decade. By the time they're given the Enterprise-A, the Constitution-class is clearly no longer the pride of the fleet the way it was during TOS. Who knows what's taken that role, since the Miranda-class is nearly as old and the Excelsior is still one of a kind, but II and III make it pretty clear that the class's heyday is well behind her.

I guess folks also ignore Scotty's lines that make it clear V happens right after IV (and thus right after II and III) despite everyone being so much older? I mean Jesus, what the **** happened to Scotty if it's been less than 12 months?
I prefer to ignore V in it's entirety, to be honest.

The Klingon thing was never an issue for me because when did anyone in the original series ever show any knowledge of alien languages? You'd think Kirk would know the basics as well but he had to call for beam up parrot fashion in III (Kurge was also a bit odd in not sending someone who could speak english over to comandeer the Enterprise. Knowing a countdown might have saved their lives). They're just to reliant on the Universal Translator.
"Speak Klingon" was probably the wrong way to put it. Uhura shouldn't have struggled to translate from English to Klingon, whatever the technique she was using, because two decades before that Kirk could stand in the same room as Kang/Kor/Koloth and have a face-to-face conversation with them with zero problems. It's not as if they were dealing with a species that they'd never dealt with before, humans had been talking to Klingons for over a century by that point.

TNG Season 1! Three episodes in and it's already topped the entire original series for both sexism and racism. And that's just Code of Honor.
The best (worst) part of that episode is that the script apparently called for the aliens to be multiracial specifically to avoid those connotations, but either the director or casting person decided "screw that, we're casting the darkest-skinned people we can find for this race of primitive savages!" I do wonder if it got the same amount of flak in the 80s as it does now, though.

And if you're looking for sexism, just wait until Angel One comes around!

I'm not afraid to admit that when I did my rewatch of TNG a couple years back, I skipped over almost the whole season and started with The Neutral Zone.

Heinrad
2016-04-09, 03:40 AM
I think the reason they're using the books is because the translator would sound too perfect. And it would be funny. Remember, Nick Meyer is the guy who gave us the 'running out the guns' scene for the photon torpedo bay in TWOK. Anachronistic things are his thing.

As for Enterprise- A, that could have come out of Mr. Scott's Guide to the Enterprise, or that's where that book got it from. If they sunk all that money into building the Excelsior model, only to go to a ship that better resembled the swan-like graceful lines of the Constitution class than Excelsior did.

That being said, Tai-Ho, which is what the ship was called before the rechristening, was supposed to be fresh out of the yards and just finished her shakedown cruise before the Probe thumped Starfleet Command.

Of course, all that comes from a technical manual that, like it's predacessor, may not have been canon.

So why give the old crew an old ship? Or, Enterprise-A might have been the end of a long line of profitable naval construction contracts for whatever company or companies were building fleet ships. Either way, Starfleet's hope may have been to keep Kirk in the background. out of the limelight.

I don't know why, but you guys are giving me a horrible urge to watch TNG again. And the Enterprise-D makes me wonder why they stuck warp nacelles on the lamp from Remington Steele's desk. Not to mention..... Ah. Marina Sirtis in those outfits. Yep, might have to rewatch TNG after all..........

Tetsuro
2016-04-09, 09:09 AM
I watched TNG so much it broke my blu-ray player!

inflatable dalek
2016-04-10, 12:27 AM
Skids, Saavik, Shockwave, Spinister...don't you be touching my characters whose names start with "S"!

Hence you hating Spock in every episode after the Cage when he stopped laughing and limping.



I prefer to ignore V in it's entirety, to be honest.

I think Gene Roddenberry's list of what counted in the film basically boiled down to the campfire scenes.


"Speak Klingon" was probably the wrong way to put it. Uhura shouldn't have struggled to translate from English to Klingon, whatever the technique she was using, because two decades before that Kirk could stand in the same room as Kang/Kor/Koloth and have a face-to-face conversation with them with zero problems. It's not as if they were dealing with a species that they'd never dealt with before, humans had been talking to Klingons for over a century by that point.

Interestingly the behind the scenes thinking with III was senior Klingons just spoke English as a class thing akin to the British court speaking French in Medieval times. Which is odd, but fits in with Chang's Shakespear fetish.

I love how Christopher Plummer is having no truck with that Speaking made up languages malarkey. There's a half hour documentary on the blu ray about a production of Klingon in Hamlet that's hilarious and insane (especially the grudging admission that a true Klingon version of Hamlet would only be about five minutes long because Klingon Hamlet wouldn't **** about) and has the director clearly struggling with the fact Plummer refused to say the "Proper" translation of "To be or not to be" because he didn't like it, but they have to stick with it because it's "Canon".

Based on the subtitles on the extracts, anything that could be translated into a Star Trek term ("Is it better to take phasers against a starfield of troubles..) could be as well.


The best (worst) part of that episode is that the script apparently called for the aliens to be multiracial specifically to avoid those connotations, but either the director or casting person decided "screw that, we're casting the darkest-skinned people we can find for this race of primitive savages!" I do wonder if it got the same amount of flak in the 80s as it does now, though.

The director gets the flak for that one, but I recently found out that there's an early Stargate episode from the same writer that has exactly the same plot and is hated by that fandom for its horrible racism. Except there, it's against Asians, which Code of Honor was clearly supposed to be about as well as all the references to them being like Japan rather than the Bongo Bongo men they look like are still in the script. Maybe lizard men would have hidden it, but it just looks like all the final casting did was swap which group should be horribly offended.

And if you're looking for sexism, just wait until Angel One comes around!

Where Troi of all people stands around and laughs at Riker when he has to dress "Sexy" for his meeting with Bonnie from offa Knightrider.

I'm not afraid to admit that when I did my rewatch of TNG a couple years back, I skipped over almost the whole season and started with The Neutral Zone.

What's amazing with these early episodes is how contemptuous Picard is of everyone except Troi. If he calls a meeting her opinion will be the only one he'll ever listen too. Everyone else he'll just shout down or ignore and he clearly has no time for their "The Ferengi are attacking us with a mysterious power draining weapon...maybe we should shoot back?" suggestions.

Still, having just passed the Last Outpost (who'd have thought the Ferengi wouldn't work when Roddenberry was apparently obsessed with them having big penises. Which is how all writers work, it's like actors finding their character when they find the right shoes. A writer knows their creation when they've decided their relative dick size) this morning's will be the first proper good one with A Blatant Child Molester From Beyond Time is a Bit Too Interested in Wesley.

Tetsuro
2016-04-10, 09:35 AM
I just like "The Naked Now" because of it's explicit TOS connection.

Also "Home Soil". And even then I admit that one's a bit crap at points.

I was gonna say I love "The Royale" but that's actually season 2, so I guess S1 really is just a big turd.

Ryan F
2016-04-16, 08:57 PM
I'm currently in the midst of my own Trek marathon, and have just reached 'The Outcast' (it's taken me 16 months to get this far; I can't powerbox my way through a series as quick as Dalek can!!!), and, I have to say, this is the first point in my rewatch where I've had to reevaluate an episode, big-time.

I always sided with the 'official' reading of the episode, that it was a gutless parable about homosexuality that copped out by having a woman play the 'deviant' who Riker beds.

But through modern eyes this could easily be a parable about gender, and how for some people the gender they were born into is not the one they associate with. Soren is not a woman by birth, but is instead a trans female, which Riker has no problem with, but it's an issue for her people, who so desperately want to 'cure' her.

Rather than a botched message episode about homosexuality (sanitised for a 1990s family audience), today it reads a lot better when viewed as a take on the trans community. It's still preachy as all hell, and Melinda Culea is as wooden as Noah's Ark, but it certainly feels a lot more comfortable watching Soren go on a personal journey as she begins to identify as a woman, than the 'traditional' take on the episode, in which Soren is basically a metaphor for a gay man.

PS: Congrats on the contract, Stuart... I'll be expecting a signed copy of whatever it is! Don't forget who your friends were before you were famous!!!

inflatable dalek
2016-04-16, 09:09 PM
I think the basic idea of "what if heterosexuality was treated like we treat homosexuality" is a solid if on the nose one (but hey, it is Star Trek), but the end result of Riker having sex with Amy offa the A Team feels like it has missed the mark by a mile.

The fact the Federation are happy to be friendly with these people (and IIRC are still so at the end, fine if you don't want to interfere in other cultures but you don't have to condone them) is up there with "How dare Worf's brother save these aliens lives!" as making them look twattish.

Appallingly directed episode as well, the shuttle in danger sequences are so sedate as to kill any tension.

And my Mysterious Contract is hopefully something I'll be able to announce properly soon.

Ryan F
2016-04-16, 10:29 PM
Yeah, if you compare it to (I'm rubbish with titles) The One With James Cromwell And The Prisoner Dude, where Picard is like, wow you treat your war heroes like animals, you can go take a running jump... It just seems more incongruous. Oh, and the Logan's Run Meets Troi's Mother episode, where Picard is all, "Asylum, asylum, asylum", but does bugger all for poor old Soren.

I'm on the gin.

Season 5 is a bit of an odd one so far, in that there's hardly any middle ground for me - every episode so far has either been really bad (Kid Copies Data, Worf's Backbone), or really fun (Conundrum, Cause and Effect). It's really quite jarring how up and down this season has been, considering how consistent the show's been up to this point. Maybe the new swirly shimmery logo put a jinx on things?

inflatable dalek
2016-04-16, 11:50 PM
SHIMMERY LOGO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Season 5 is a bit Voyager isn't it? Season 7 is arguably worse, but it has the odd completely and utterly insane episode to liven things up.

Pleasingly and by random chance I watched the pulp detective spoof episode of Quantum Leap (and hurrah, for the blu ray they've put the season 1 titles back on this. On DVD it had the more familiar second year credits and "Theorising..." opening. Hopefully that means as the rest of the show comes out they'll make sure every episode ends with the correct next leap rather than him going back into The Color Of Truth every other week) back to back with The Big Goodbye. fedora fun.

It does have by far the silliest and most pointless Captain's Log of the entire series as Picard for reasons best known to himself feels he needs to explain what a holodeck is on his official record (which would be like the Ark Royal captain explaining his VCR on his log). Even from an exposition perspective this makes no sense as the holodeck has been in four episodes by this point, it's established.

Though maybe Picard does this all the time? "Captain's Log: Today I beamed up to the ship using the transporter, a marvellous device that allows you to be moved instantaneously from place to place. I then use the turbolift, a marvellous device that is a little room that moves you from deck to deck without having to use the stairs".

Tetsuro
2016-04-17, 02:41 AM
Cause and Effect
That one is probably one of, if not my favourite episode in the series - in fact, a lot of my favourites are very much in the vein of "weird sci-fi anomaly of the week". I wonder if it has something to do with "Time Squared" being the one episode of TNG that stuck with me since childhood to any amount of detail.

Although oddly, the reason I like Timescape has more to do with the character moments in the beginning - same with The Royale, where I like the aspect of the characters, still sort of fresh from season 1 where they were still full of themselves, stuck in a second rate pulp novel.

Ryan F
2016-04-18, 11:07 PM
That one is probably one of, if not my favourite episode in the series - in fact, a lot of my favourites are very much in the vein of "weird sci-fi anomaly of the week". I wonder if it has something to do with "Time Squared" being the one episode of TNG that stuck with me since childhood to any amount of detail.

Although oddly, the reason I like Timescape has more to do with the character moments in the beginning - same with The Royale, where I like the aspect of the characters, still sort of fresh from season 1 where they were still full of themselves, stuck in a second rate pulp novel.

I'm rewatching stuff I've only seen a couple of times ever, and it's interesting on this rewatch that the episodes I always liked (Remember Me, Disaster etc.) are still good, but there's a second batch of episodes that young-me found a bit rubbish (Unification, The Wounded), that I can appreciate more with older eyes. The episodes I always hated (stuff like Pen Pals and Home Soil) are still bad.

There aren't many episodes that have actually gone down in my estimation on the rewatch - I still have soft spots for naff episodes like Power Play and The Game even though I really ought to hate them. Dr Crusher has gone way up in my estimation on this rewatch, she's great.

Justice is still awful, but the HD remaster shows up some... stuff... that wasn't previously apparent...

Tetsuro
2016-04-19, 04:26 PM
It feels like every time I try to think of a good episode from season 1, the episodes I come up with are actually from season 2. While that season has a lot of good episodes, I can understand why people mostly just remember Q Who and Measure of a Man, because those really are amazingly good.

I guess the only episode from season 1 I really like is The Naked Now. I liked the way how Riker figures out what's going on; remembering something absurd like a mental image of people showering clothed.

Warcry
2016-04-19, 06:52 PM
I honestly can't think of a single first-season episode that I enjoy. The ones I can remember are all either stupid, offensive, preachy or a combination of all three.

Not to mention..... Ah. Marina Sirtis in those outfits. Yep, might have to rewatch TNG after all..........
:lol: I think you may be the only person I know who's ever said a positive thing about Troi's wardrobe.

Personally I think she looked like an idiot 95% of the time until they put her in a uniform for the last season and a half. Her casual outfits all looked awful, with colours and styling that were so unflattering most of the time that I can't believe the wardrobe department couldn't come up with something better. If they were going to objectify her with a "sexy" getup, they really should have just stuck with the TOS-style miniskirt outfit from the pilot. At least that one looked good on her!

Hence you hating Spock in every episode after the Cage when he stopped laughing and limping.
Now you're getting it!

Interestingly the behind the scenes thinking with III was senior Klingons just spoke English as a class thing akin to the British court speaking French in Medieval times. Which is odd, but fits in with Chang's Shakespear fetish.
I'm not sure that really makes any sense. I mean, the British court spoke French because they were all basically Frenchmen anyway after the Norman invasion.

What's amazing with these early episodes is how contemptuous Picard is of everyone except Troi. If he calls a meeting her opinion will be the only one he'll ever listen too. Everyone else he'll just shout down or ignore and he clearly has no time for their "The Ferengi are attacking us with a mysterious power draining weapon...maybe we should shoot back?" suggestions.
Before they found a solid balance with the character, Picard often came off as a bloodless coward who would bark abusively at anyone he perceived as his "lesser" but shied away from conflict with outsiders. So it's not really all that surprising that he'd listen to Troi, since her touchy-feely love everyone nonsense played into his desire to avoid conflict at all costs. It's a testament to Patrick Stewart's acting that people connected with the character at all before the scripts started to give him more nuance (and backbone!) starting in season two.

But it is striking just how many episodes would have been wrapped up before the 20 minute mark if he'd just listened to Worf and/or Tasha and blasted whatever it was that was threatening them...


I was gonna say I love "The Royale" but that's actually season 2
I thought I was the only one who enjoyed that episode! I see it slated all the time by reviewers who seemingly have no sense of humour.

But through modern eyes this could easily be a parable about gender, and how for some people the gender they were born into is not the one they associate with. Soren is not a woman by birth, but is instead a trans female, which Riker has no problem with, but it's an issue for her people, who so desperately want to 'cure' her.
I can see why you'd take it like that nowadays, but to be honest I doubt anyone involved with the production back in the 80s even knew what a "trans female" was, and if you explained it to them they'd probably have laughed it off as a cross-dressing pervert. Society was a lot different back then.

The fact the Federation are happy to be friendly with these people (and IIRC are still so at the end, fine if you don't want to interfere in other cultures but you don't have to condone them) is up there with "How dare Worf's brother save these aliens lives!" as making them look twattish.
The Federation is happy to be friends with the Klingons in spite of them still lording over countless worlds filled with conquered serf races, so I don't think "brainwashes people they think are deviants" is anywhere near enough to earn you the Federation's ire if you prove useful.

Yeah, if you compare it to (I'm rubbish with titles) The One With James Cromwell And The Prisoner Dude, where Picard is like, wow you treat your war heroes like animals, you can go take a running jump... It just seems more incongruous. Oh, and the Logan's Run Meets Troi's Mother episode, where Picard is all, "Asylum, asylum, asylum", but does bugger all for poor old Soren.
I'm pretty sure Picard only gave asylum to Troi's mom's boyfriend in the hopes that she'd finally stop sexually harassing him.

I'm rewatching stuff I've only seen a couple of times ever, and it's interesting on this rewatch that the episodes I always liked (Remember Me, Disaster etc.) are still good, but there's a second batch of episodes that young-me found a bit rubbish (Unification, The Wounded), that I can appreciate more with older eyes. The episodes I always hated (stuff like Pen Pals and Home Soil) are still bad.
I actually wound up reevaluating almost every episode when I rewatched the series last year. I found that about half of the episodes that I loved as a kid and was looking forward to seeing again turned out to be either boring or outright trash (Descent being the biggest example). But a lot of the episodes that I hated as a kid and wasn't looking forward to at all turned out to be great (like Darmok, The Inner Light or Birthright).

I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, though. I was 10 when the series went off the air and hadn't done a thorough watch of the show since my teens.

Heinrad
2016-04-19, 09:26 PM
I guess I should give the series a rewatch. Although I'm tempted to do what Dalek's doing, and start at the beginning.

Although I may stop when I hit the end of TNG. My watching of DS9 wound up being chopped up to the point that not long after they get Worf, everything went completely doolally.

That being said, has anybody tried the new Star Trek iOS game? If nothing else, John deLancie's having a lot of fun in it.

Tetsuro
2016-04-20, 11:13 AM
I learned that there were Viewmaster reels made of Star Trek TOS, and I wondered how much they would cost, so I headed to ebay.

...over £30 for the only set they made, and it's based on freakin' Omega Glory.

Yeah, expletive that.

inflatable dalek
2016-04-22, 07:23 PM
I thought there were a few Viewmasters (including an Animated one)?

I honestly can't think of a single first-season episode that I enjoy. The ones I can remember are all either stupid, offensive, preachy or a combination of all three.

Ones I genuinely like from season 1 so far:

Where No One Has Gone Before;
The Big Goodbye;
110011...no, 10011...no...10100...The Binar One;
Datalore.

I'm not that far yet but I also have fond memories of Heart of Glory, We'll Always Have Paris (despite being the last episode to try and suggest Picard is French by surrounding him with Very French Things) and especially Conspiracy.

Even the best episodes are cheesy and just a bit silly in a way the really good stuff later on isn't though.


:lol: I think you may be the only person I know who's ever said a positive thing about Troi's wardrobe.

What about what the Ferengi make her wear in Meange a Troi? Am I right?

Oh no, I really have bought into the Roddenberry world view.

If they were going to objectify her with a "sexy" getup, they really should have just stuck with the TOS-style miniskirt outfit from the pilot. At least that one looked good on her!

The problem with the Skant is that they were just too short, look how firmly she's gripping her knees together in the last scene in Farpoint and realise why they dropped it, you'd never have been able to do a scene of her sitting down.

I always thought the skants were unflattering myself anyway, they seem to make everyone who wears them look short and squat. A kilt style male uniform wasn't a bad idea in principle, but they looked awful on everyone (tellingly the male main cast members seem to have said **** off even in the pilot).



Before they found a solid balance with the character, Picard often came off as a bloodless coward who would bark abusively at anyone he perceived as his "lesser" but shied away from conflict with outsiders. So it's not really all that surprising that he'd listen to Troi, since her touchy-feely love everyone nonsense played into his desire to avoid conflict at all costs. It's a testament to Patrick Stewart's acting that people connected with the character at all before the scripts started to give him more nuance (and backbone!) starting in season two.

Yeah, all the actors are struggling to overcome terrible writing in that first season, with Stewart and Spiner being the only ones who can manage it regularly. It makes me wonder if Crosby would have improved with better material as Sirtis and McFadden did as well.

Mind, she was a bloody awful Romulan as well so maybe not.

EDIT: Of course, it doesn't help that several of the characters, most notably Data and Worf, are written and performed with backstories in mind that were chucked out and replaced with completely different ones as the season went on. Cultural exchange officer Worf not knowing what Rome is makes sense, raised on Earth by humans Worf not knowing doesn't.

But it is striking just how many episodes would have been wrapped up before the 20 minute mark if he'd just listened to Worf and/or Tasha and blasted whatever it was that was threatening them...

Poor old Worf as the "Alien" (and thus exempt from Gene's "Humans are perfect" rules) gets the brunt of Being Wrong over the seven years even after the show settles down. To the point where you wonder why he has a senior staff position when no one ever listens to him.

That's actually one other thing I hate about the Outcast, despite Worf repeatedly being shown to like strong women who can rough and tumble with the best of them he suddenly gets all the sexist dialogue because he's the only character who is allowed to be sexist.


I thought I was the only one who enjoyed that episode! I see it slated all the time by reviewers who seemingly have no sense of humour.

I like the Royale as well. As with the Robin Hood episode it's a bit odd they'd bring in an outside constraint to create a surreal Earth history setting when they have the holodeck for that, but it's good silly fun. "When the train comes to town, everybody rides!".



The Federation is happy to be friends with the Klingons in spite of them still lording over countless worlds filled with conquered serf races, so I don't think "brainwashes people they think are deviants" is anywhere near enough to earn you the Federation's ire if you prove useful.

Which does bring up one odd thing about the Klingons (and the Romulans as well), they're a massive star empire of conquered planets, but we never see any of the other species they rule over. Even the colony wanting independence in The Mind's Eye was all Klingon. Where do these guys go? If nothing else it would have been a simple explanation for the different Klingon looks (if Starfleet can have all Vulcan and mostly all human ships there's no reason why the Klingons couldn't do the same with their various empire subjects).



I actually wound up reevaluating almost every episode when I rewatched the series last year. I found that about half of the episodes that I loved as a kid and was looking forward to seeing again turned out to be either boring or outright trash (Descent being the biggest example). But a lot of the episodes that I hated as a kid and wasn't looking forward to at all turned out to be great (like Darmok, The Inner Light or Birthright).

I hated Descent even as a kid, mainly for the massive cop out second part and the way Crusher was clearly only in command in an attempt to shut the actress up from moaning about having nothing to do (which is understandable, but between that and her suddenly solving MURDER crimes and being fingerd by a ghost, could they really not have found a good plot for her based around her previously established personality? Same goes for Troi suddenly being promoted over Data).

Birthright though? That's still pretty terrible for me.

Tetsuro
2016-04-23, 08:49 PM
Which does bring up one odd thing about the Klingons (and the Romulans as well), they're a massive star empire of conquered planets, but we never see any of the other species they rule over. Even the colony wanting independence in The Mind's Eye was all Klingon. Where do these guys go? If nothing else it would have been a simple explanation for the different Klingon looks (if Starfleet can have all Vulcan and mostly all human ships there's no reason why the Klingons couldn't do the same with their various empire subjects)
I just assumed that unlike the Federation, Romulans and Klingons didn't recruit aliens into their military, since most of them were conquered. But even then, you'd think we'd seen at least some aliens living under Romulan or Klingon rule, but such as it is, it seems there's no one else living in their territories - which would otherwise be fine and dandy, but it makes the ridicilous amount of alien life within Federation territory look a bit weird.

At least the Gorn are officially part of the Klingon Empire in STO.

Heinrad
2016-04-24, 02:12 AM
There could be two ways to look at it.

One, if all the races in your interstellar empire are conquered, and you're sufficiently paranoid, putting the people who may not be happy you've conquered them on your ships and hoping they are willing to risk their lives to protect/expand your empire might be a big ask. Granted, it worked for Rome, but Rome seems to have been more incorporating in terms of it's military.

Two, yes, we've seen all kinds of alien races in Starfleet, but for the most part, it's all humans.

In Final Frontier, a big secret in the Romulan Empire is that some of the Romulans aren't actually Vulcanoid in descent, but humans from colonies that were stuck on the Romulan side of the Neutral Zone that were surgically altered to fit in with Romulan society, while others signed on to be spies.

It may ultimately depend on how the planets that get conquered are brought in. The Klingons might land and destroy the leaders that are already there, while the Romulans may follow a "We have brought your planet into our empire. Pay your taxes and we won't destroy you" way of doing things.

Cyberstrike nTo
2016-07-08, 10:58 PM
So Sulu is going to be revealed as gay in Star Trek: Beyond and no surprise that some people aren't happy about that and one them is George Takei!

9iOmLMcyOMw
This is a pretty safe to watch, no foul language, but if your boss is a homophobe then watch it at home.

My thoughts the only time that I recall in that we get anything about Sulu's love life is in Star Trek: Generations where it's revealed that he had a daughter (I'm sure that the evil Sulu getting frisky with Uhrara in "Mirror, Mirror" counts that it's an alternate version of the character) and the only thing that stuns Captain Kirk is that Sulu had the time to have a family, it's never said by Kirk, Scotty, Chekhov, or Sulu's daughter that Sulu had married a woman. He could have married a man and they could have a daughter either through any number ways.

inflatable dalek
2016-07-23, 01:36 AM
Two thirds of Beyond are great, the stuff on the planet is fun and frothy and fast and a bit different from anything the films have done prior. everyone gets nice moments and the stunt stuff is good.

But it all falls apart at the end for me for reason's I'll put in spoilers. I'm also not certain why people are celebrating it as not being a rehash of previous stories like Into Darkness when there's more than one setpiece shamelessly nicked and updated from a previous Trek movie.



At times it actually felt like "We never quite managed to do that properly...let's do it again!". So we have a saucer separation and crash landing and a McGuffin that will turn people into dust and even the hero ship crashing in water and the hero having to chase the villain through the city to stop him doing his thing from the very last film. Some of the shots of people reacting to that might as well have been stock footage from Into Darkness.

The ending though I found annoying because it's a variation on the end of every single Star Trek film we've had since Generations. The hero and the villain punching each other to stop the later pressing the button that will unleash their evil scheme (usually a planet destroying super weapon). The punch ups have gotten more elaborate but the only real innovation this time is it's not a planet in danger, but a space station so large it looks like a planet when you're on it.

The shame is the Beastie Boys bit felt like a really clever subversion of how big Hollywood blockbusters climax, no big laser fights but taking the baddy down with rock. But then the whole thing went down the same predictable route. It's amazing how much fear there is in varying the formula when The One With the Whales was such a success for the franchise. Hell, give me God shooting laser beams out of his eyes, at least that was a hero/villain fight no one had done before.

And whilst the idea of Elba having morphed as he sucked the lifeforce from all those different species and becoming more human again as he had more of his own kind for lunch was a good one (I know people beforehand were talking about his look being the most generic Trek alien design possible, turns out that was the point), I found him a bit dull as well. Genetically altered long lived superhuman sent mad by being trapped on a lost planet and plotting revenge with the doomsday weapon he needs to steal from Kirk? He's more Khan than Cumberbatch ever was and everyone who gave the last film a kicking for that recycling should be doing the same here.

Considering people seem to be able to come and go from this planet pretty easily (his sidekick made it to the Yorktown), I'm not sure why he sat on his pathetic ass for 100 years feeling sorry for himself either.

Though I quite like the idea someone who survived the run of Enterprise would be a crazy ****er to be put down like a dog. Wouldn't it have been more fun if it had been an insane Scott Bakula?

The "Star Fleet isn't military and is better than that" message was pretty broken as well, the Federation keep getting attacked by madmen with superweapons, they clearly do need a military to protect them and should probably invest in one.

Also, there was no need whatsoever to destroy the Enterprise, just having it boarded and captured when everyone abandoned ship (with damage to take out the engines so they'd still have to use the Franklin) would have been enough. It's got no emotional weight to it on the third time of doing it and this time they didn't even have the grace to wait till the next film for the new Enterprise to come along. With the A seeming to look exactly the same I'm not sure what the point was, the assembly bit actually really annoyed me, as with Kirk so quickly becoming Captain at the end of the 09 film it felt like they set something up that didn't need to be delivered on straight away but they went for the instant gratification anyway.

I've focused on the negative there because the ending really was no fun for me at all and the good bit of the film--of which there were many--don't lend themselves to much discussion beyond "Yeah, that was sweet". And the cast are all fantastic. Even Deep Roy.

Especially Deep Roy.

Oh, and for all the fuss the Sulu thing is the briefest of background details that's mainly there to add a couple of recognisable faces in danger during the attack. You can read what you like into it (I'm sure homophobes will go with that being Sulu's brother and niece) and I don't think it actually contradicts anything about Prime Sulu, both could quite easily be bisexual.

And when Spock was going through Prime Spock's things (oddly I think any youngsters who haven't seen Trek before would probably assume Nimoy was his dad of the same name, it doesn't really touch on how they're actually the same person) I was actually wondering if they were going to go with the hologram of Shatner idea abandoned from the first film. But that simple cast picture was absolutely perfect and hit me exactly in the way intended. And it means something from The Final Frontier has survived into the new timeline as well as all of Enterprise!

Heinrad
2016-07-24, 07:41 PM
Went to see it yesterday, and I quite enjoyed it. I loved the bit at the beginning with the aliens.

That should keep things fairly spoiler free.

Summerhayes
2016-07-31, 08:20 AM
I bloody loved it. I can see most of Dalek 's points, but none of those issues stopped me having a grand old time. Ironically, despite this one probably having more death and danger it never felt like it was trying so hard to be dark as the previous film.

inflatable dalek
2016-08-05, 02:11 PM
So it looks like it's going to be, whilst not a flop as such (indeed, it's currently Paramount's most successful film of the year to date!), a serious under-performer lagging a good way behind the previous two films.

Whilst the generally terrible marketing campaign can be blamed for the poor opening weekend, I'm genuinely surprised the drop off has been so steep when the word of mouth was so good. maybe it was the wrong kind of good word of mouth? Lots of people have been going "It's Proper Star Trek!", or in other words "This film you'll have to pay an inflated cinema ticket to see is just like a 50 year old episode of television! Why not just stay in and watch some actual Proper Star Trek on Netflix and wait till the DVD's in the bargain bin?".

Heinrad
2016-08-07, 03:48 AM
One review I saw mentioned that the sudden drop was likely due to having Jason Bourne hit the next weekend, and having Suicide Squad come out after that probably won't help much.

Tetsuro
2016-08-07, 05:28 AM
He could have married a man and they could have a daughter either through any number ways.
Or he could just be bisexual.

Unfortunately, Hollywood (and by consequence, a lot of the audiences) seems to consider sexuality entirely in black and white terms.

Warcry
2016-08-08, 06:04 PM
I haven't even considered going to see this after how much I didn't enjoy the first two. I'll probably see it on DVD or something eventually, but the first two made it pretty clear that the reboots aren't for me. I'd imagine I'm not the only old-school Trek fan who thinks that way, and the franchise has never really been embraced by the same generic action movie crowd that Star Wars or even Transformers manage to bring in. So if the fans are souring on things the box office performance is going to show it.

Also, I wanted to reply to something dalek said in a different, comic-spoiler-filled thread (http://tfarchive.com/community/showpost.php?p=759996&postcount=57) but didn't want to totally derail yet another comic discussion thread into Star Trek rambling, so...

I'm surprised anyone would consider it less successful than Voyager tbh, it never hit the iconic heights of TOS or TNG (and I think people downplay how iconic that show was, as someone on another forum I post at recently mused Picard has more internet memes by himself than almost any other contemporary US TV character), but it certainly got more viewers than VOY-a result of how they were broadcast differently of course but still means it was more widespread--and was always more critically acclaimed, especially once it hit that post Worf stride.
It probably depends on the market you're in, and how the shows were/are distributed there, but here at least Voyager has always been the stronger of the two shows and it's not even really close. Going back to when they were first broadcast, unless my memory is failing me DS9 was crammed into a Saturday afternoon death slot while Voyager got broadcast in prime time. And Voyager thrived in syndication -- it ran on local channels for ages, and then on the cable sci-fi network (alongside TNG and TOS but, notably, not DS9) for ages more. I think the Trek reruns have finally been dropped from the rotation this year, but there was Voyager available on my TV screen for two decades and I can't say that about DS9.

None of which is to say that Voyager is a better show or even that I like it, but it does seem to have been more commercially viable than Deep Space Nine in both the long and short runs, at least around here.

The best description of Voyager I've ever read was it was the least succesful successful show ever made, running for seven years as the top rated show on its network but even the people who made it think it was a bit shit.
I don't think Voyager is very well-remembered, but it was very popular at the time with, broadly speaking, my parents' demographic -- people who watched the original as it aired, got sucked back in with TNG as grown-ups and generally had a very set idea of what Star Trek should be: episodic adventures of a ship and crew exploring the unknown. It also seemed to attract more casual viewers, at least in my social circle. Even though the quality was never what it should be, it was and is "comfortable" and attracted a lot of watchers on that basis.

And whilst a lot of Trek fans weren't embracing of DS9 (famously it's the Trek show for people who don't like Trek) that's as much to do with things like no space ship like wot proper Star Trek has as the actual quality.
I don't think many will argue that Voyager is actually better than DS9 these days, but it's not like quality has ever been a major determining factor in how successful a TV series is.

And while I don't 100% agree with the "Trek for people who don't like Trek" line, there's more truth to it than I would like to admit. And it's a bit of a double-edged sword in that regard. On the one hand, you have hardcore fans rejecting it because it doesn't fit the traditional format. On the other, the Star Trek name drives away a lot of people who'd probably eat it right up, because they wrongly assume that it will fit the traditional format.

In terms of the show ending though, don't forget the 24th century Trek was continuing in both Voyager and the TNG films (no one knew when season 7 was finishing Insurrection would lead to a big gap and a rethink), with some serious thought given to bringing Voyager home now the Alpah Quadrant was freed up. The show was ending but the overall Universe was carrying on... just as with MTMTE.
The universe was continuing but the story that DS9 was telling (excellent relaunch novels aside) was drawing to a pretty conclusive close. Worf aside I don't think much from DS9 was even mentioned after the series ended, other than some references on Voyager about how the Dominion had utterly destroyed the Maquis. That gives you a pretty free hand when it comes to...well, not giving a damn about attracting new viewers. Nobody was going to tune into Voyager or Nemesis to find out what Jake did next, or whether Bajor ever did wind up joining the Federation.

Cliffjumper
2016-08-22, 12:07 AM
Finally saw Insurrection. It's astonishingly shit - does someone want to tell Michael Dorn and Brent Spiner they're not ****ing movie stars and they don't get to just turn up and do schtick as if they're Morgan Freeman and Jim Carrey? Hey, do you know what this film needs - a romantic subplot that's never going to go anywhere. Or two, perhaps. And then you've got F Murray ****ing Salieri Abraham drowned under slap while Gates McFadden's strutting around like she's got some basic right to be in a major film. A bloated TV episode with a couple of "dated by the time it hit VHS" model scenes thrown in.

Seriously, when Data does his funny slap on Riker to show he has Learnt the Human Emotion Of Being A Cockpipe for the 400th time I actually hoped Brent Spiner was having a stroke wherever he is now.

Warcry
2016-08-22, 05:28 PM
That's the one with fat old beardless Riker, right? And also the one that could have happened any time, except they specifically name-dropped the Dominion War, making you wonder why the Enterprise is dicking around doing piddly shit like this while an occupying Jem'hadar army is hanging out on Betazed?

I have to admit that the TNG movies (aside from the actually entertaining First Contact) all kind of blur together for me. Generations, Insurrection and even Nemesis all feel like they could have been TV two-parters, and not even particularly good ones. I want to say that Insurrection is the worst of the bunch, but truth be told I don't think I've seen it in over a decade and have no plans to change that any time soon.

Cliffjumper
2016-08-22, 11:28 PM
Personally I don't think the TNG crew work for films at all. I like First Contact but that's because it junks the format and it's basically a space actioner focused largely on Picard and Data. The rest... we've seen enough of them, basically. We've had seven years of, say, Troi or Crusher or Worf not really going anywhere, why do we need another ten minutes a few years later? TOS there's a certain amount of getting to see more of a series which ended early plus the growing age of the regulars gave a nice organic progression to them. There was no real time for anyone to miss TNG or for anything to really move on in the meantime; Generations feels like a TV movie capstone on the series whereas whatever you can say about the TOS films they were significantly different from the series.

I'd seriously argue how much of a popular footprint TNG will actually leave. Like TF G1 you can argue the better quality of later incarnations till you're blue in the face but you can't escape that for so many people Star Trek is synonymous with Kirk, Spock and McCoy the same way Transformers is Optimus Prime the truck going up against Megatron and the new films are only going to underline that.

Tetsuro
2016-08-23, 01:52 AM
The biggest problem with people raving about DS9 is that they often mistake good acting for good writing; there's a lot of gunk, especially in the later seasons, that just doesn't work; I think the biggest "jump the shark" episode is the one where they discover their descendants on a planet after having crashed there in the past and Odo decides to wipe out everyone because he couldn't get past Kira's death in 200 years, which is probably the most out of character moment for anyone in the entire series - hell, it's probably the most out of character moment in all of Trek history.

After that, moments where you realize the writers had no actual long-term plan and they shamelessly backpedal on character development when it doesn't work become increasingly obvious. Kira and Odo's relationship in particular feels forced all the way to the end (and I'm pretty sure the only reason it gets reintroduced into the series is because the writer was a fan of it in the early seasons).

I wish I could say Voyager is better of the two, but the trouble with it is that it fails to make the most of the characters. My favourite TNG episodes are the likes of Cause & Effect where the Space Anomaly of the Week is relatively simple and the fun comes from watching familiar characters interacting with each other as they try to figure out what's going on; Voyager fails to do any of that and goes for the Trek Cureall solution of Technobabble. At least with TNG, the cast kinda felt like a group of real people and not a bunch of Star Trek pastiché.

At least even when DS9 completely f***s up it's own cast, it at least has an interesting overarching plot going on for it.

inflatable dalek
2016-08-23, 03:50 PM
Finally saw Insurrection. It's astonishingly shit - does someone want to tell Michael Dorn and Brent Spiner they're not ****ing movie stars and they don't get to just turn up and do schtick as if they're Morgan Freeman and Jim Carrey? Hey, do you know what this film needs - a romantic subplot that's never going to go anywhere. Or two, perhaps. And then you've got F Murray ****ing Salieri Abraham drowned under slap while Gates McFadden's strutting around like she's got some basic right to be in a major film. A bloated TV episode with a couple of "dated by the time it hit VHS" model scenes thrown in.

If it makes you feel better Brent Spiner felt the same and campaigned hard against Data's role in the film as it felt it ignored all his character development and reset him to season 3 levels. He only had luck squeezing one mention of the emotion chip not being plugged in.

I've mentioned Michael Piller's unpublished Writing of... book before (though it is now coming out. as a $95 library book) and it is fasinating how much the fan claims of "Patrick Stewart and Brent Spiner's egos plus studio interference ruined it!", when every single note from the two leads and Paramount were pretty much every fan complaint about it. It looks like the success of the previous movie gave Berman the clout to ignore these things. Certainly the only studio note (and they had some real issues with the "Rights of affluent white people are really important!" message) that was listened to was that maybe instead of giving Barcley a big guest role that should let Geordi say something.


That's the one with fat old beardless Riker, right? And also the one that could have happened any time, except they specifically name-dropped the Dominion War, making you wonder why the Enterprise is dicking around doing piddly shit like this while an occupying Jem'hadar army is hanging out on Betazed?

I can see why they'd do a standalone film tbh, tying things into the Dominion War would not only be unfair on DS9 (in terms of having their story usurped, I think that's why Behr lied and said "Oh, the war will be done when the film comes out" when Piller first asked him if that were a possibility) but put in danger of feeling like the first X-Files film. Which is considerably worse than any Trek film, precisely because it has no ambitions beyond furthering the TV plots and doesn't expect to be seen by anyone outside of a rewatch in that season 5/6 gap.

It not being a good standalone film is really the problem. I think the biggest issue is that, regardless of them being handled badly, the themes and issues are just too serious and complicated for a film that is trying to set out to be a light and fun contrast to the previous one. It needed to be either darker, or based around a fluffier concept (like, you know, rescuing Whales).

I have to admit that the TNG movies (aside from the actually entertaining First Contact) all kind of blur together for me. Generations, Insurrection and even Nemesis all feel like they could have been TV two-parters, and not even particularly good ones. I want to say that Insurrection is the worst of the bunch, but truth be told I don't think I've seen it in over a decade and have no plans to change that any time soon.

Personally I don't think the TNG crew work for films at all. I like First Contact but that's because it junks the format and it's basically a space actioner focused largely on Picard and Data. The rest... we've seen enough of them, basically. We've had seven years of, say, Troi or Crusher or Worf not really going anywhere, why do we need another ten minutes a few years later? TOS there's a certain amount of getting to see more of a series which ended early plus the growing age of the regulars gave a nice organic progression to them. There was no real time for anyone to miss TNG or for anything to really move on in the meantime; Generations feels like a TV movie capstone on the series whereas whatever you can say about the TOS films they were significantly different from the series.


I don't know, I think you could have carried on in the style (if not the tone) of FC easily enough. Not building on the success of that movie is probably the biggest squandered opportunity in all of Trek. I certainly think Picard and Data (and to a marginally lesser extent Worf) were well known and liked enough to be able to carry films with the others as minor support if done right (and even gratuitous Something To Do scenes might not have been so bad for the others, everyone loves the Drunk Troi stuff in FC), it just was only done so once.

The refusal to age and change the characters is another big factor of course. The best thing about the TOS films is that V (tellingly the least popular) is the only one to treat the startus quo of the series as "Normal". The others have them being called back in, or stuck together by circumstances. They haven't just sat in the same chair for 25 years straight.

Of course, it's easy to forget that Insurrection wasn't a failure, just a much smaller success as its predecessor. The TNG films could have recovered from that (and they took the time to have a think, though ironically IIRC part of the reason for the gap was Stewart not wanting to go head to head with the first revived Star Wars...), but the net result was in the end worse.

I'd seriously argue how much of a popular footprint TNG will actually leave. Like TF G1 you can argue the better quality of later incarnations till you're blue in the face but you can't escape that for so many people Star Trek is synonymous with Kirk, Spock and McCoy the same way Transformers is Optimus Prime the truck going up against Megatron and the new films are only going to underline that.

The diminishing returns of each New film suggests the new Kirk and Spock really aren't taking, despite massively favourable reviews the not outright failure but still not good enough takings for Beyond actually places the film franchise in a similar place to where it was with Insurrection. I really think the next one will be make or break for this cast at least and probably the films as a whole for a good long time.

Warcry
2016-08-23, 06:35 PM
Personally I don't think the TNG crew work for films at all. I like First Contact but that's because it junks the format and it's basically a space actioner focused largely on Picard and Data. The rest...

...

Generations feels like a TV movie capstone on the series whereas whatever you can say about the TOS films they were significantly different from the series.
I would actually say that these two points are pretty clearly connected -- the one time that they did treat the TNG movies like the TOS ones, and made something distinct from the series, they got First Contact out of it. I think if they'd continued in that vein they could have made a few more solid movies with the TNG cast, no matter how hard it was by that point to care about Geordi or Crusher or Troi.

I think the problem was less with the actors and more with the production crew and writers, to be honest. They were already running out of ideas when TNG ended, and understandably so. But it really wouldn't have been a bad move to bring on some fresh blood with new ideas, like the TOS movies did after Roddenberry's first effort turned out to be so blah.

I'd seriously argue how much of a popular footprint TNG will actually leave. Like TF G1 you can argue the better quality of later incarnations till you're blue in the face but you can't escape that for so many people Star Trek is synonymous with Kirk, Spock and McCoy the same way Transformers is Optimus Prime the truck going up against Megatron and the new films are only going to underline that.
I'm not so sure about that. Picard at least is cemented in popular culture pretty firmly, as evidenced by all the internet memes based on him (and the fact that everyone loves Patrick Stewart). And TNG references in pop culture aren't exactly rare either, as it's frequently brought up in shows like Family Guy or Big Bang Theory. It's nowhere near being forgotten in the popular consciousness, not like DS9, Voyager or Enterprise are (or, frankly, the new movies probably will be). Though TNG definitely does suffer in relation to TOS because it's just not as easy to poke fun at.

The biggest problem with people raving about DS9 is that they often mistake good acting for good writing; there's a lot of gunk, especially in the later seasons, that just doesn't work;
Oh, I won't disagree with that. Any series that runs for seven years is going to have it's share of bad episodes, and DS9 is no exception, though personally I'd actually point to the first couple years as being the source of most of the stuff I didn't enjoy. But having the strongest ensemble cast out of all the modern Trek shows does a good job papering some of that over.

I can see why they'd do a standalone film tbh, tying things into the Dominion War would not only be unfair on DS9 (in terms of having their story usurped, I think that's why Behr lied and said "Oh, the war will be done when the film comes out" when Piller first asked him if that were a possibility) but put in danger of feeling like the first X-Files film. Which is considerably worse than any Trek film, precisely because it has no ambitions beyond furthering the TV plots and doesn't expect to be seen by anyone outside of a rewatch in that season 5/6 gap.
Oh, I completely agree with all that. The best thing to do would have been to just ignore DS9 entirely, rather than namedropping plot points from the series that open up plot holes in the movie itself. Just don't mention it, and if anyone asks, say the movie takes place before or after the war. Especially since there's no way Worf's time on the Enterprise could fit into DS9's timeline. I mean, can you seriously imagine Worf of all people taking a vacation in the middle of a war when he's on the front lines, especially after his wife died?

So don't do that. Ditch any attempt to tie the movie into the TV show, be vague about the timeline and that's one big headache gone already.

Though obviously the main problems would still be this...
It not being a good standalone film is really the problem. I think the biggest issue is that, regardless of them being handled badly, the themes and issues are just too serious and complicated for a film that is trying to set out to be a light and fun contrast to the previous one. It needed to be either darker, or based around a fluffier concept (like, you know, rescuing Whales).
...combined with them ignoring Data's character development even though he's the only one of the TNG crew aside from Picard to get any in the previous movies. In fact, hell, he's probably the only one of the TNG crew aside from Picard to get any lasting character development since the middle of the TV show.

The diminishing returns of each New film suggests the new Kirk and Spock really aren't taking, despite massively favourable reviews the not outright failure but still not good enough takings for Beyond actually places the film franchise in a similar place to where it was with Insurrection. I really think the next one will be make or break for this cast at least and probably the films as a whole for a good long time.
Yeah, I really don't buy into the whole "Star Trek = Kirk, Spock and McCoy" paradigm myself, and never really thought that bringing them back was going to save the franchise all on it's own. I mean, it's not like the characters have a track record of unmitigated success. TOS was a commercial failure that only attained cult status retroactively, and the movies starring the original cast were mostly just modest successes themselves. The question of whether Trek can succeed without the big three was answered pretty decisively in the 1980s, and with the continued success of multiple spin-off series since then. I mean, hell, we all talk like Enterprise was an epic failure and even it outlasted the original by one season and twenty episodes. If the show is good people will watch it, and if it's not (like the first two new movies) people will stop watching, and that's what'll happen whether it's got Kirk in it or not.

Cliffjumper
2016-08-23, 07:32 PM
I'd seriously argue with Picard making much impact; Patrick Stewart, with his decade as Professor X, his nice-blokishness, his showreel Extras scenes and his social media bromance with Ian McKellen had made a lot of impact but I'm not sure how much that transfers back onto the show or character anymore than the 'smirk' meme does on TAS. It was a popular show a lot of people watched but not much more; Kirk, Spock and McCoy are full-blown cultural touchstones. Data notso much.

Regarding the diminishing box office, I think it's kind-of inevitable with any franchise. Trek, as a long-running TV franchise, just doesn't have the "wow" factor for cinema (all of the pre-Abrams films were solid hits rather than runaway phenomenons; annually they're in the lower top 10 and then top 20 by the nineties) and has been outgunned and squeezed by the Marvel/Disney onslaught and ever-rising budgets which mean films have to take $200m to turn a profit. I don't think in that climate Trek has the profile to compete, not when it's never quite shaken off the Trekkie stigma.

Generations and Insurrection are both soulless little films IMO; lazy stuff where old pals' networks have meant that everyone's wondering how many lines they've got and no-one's got the balls to say "**** you, there's nothing for you to do in this film without compromising it". It's all very safe and cosy. Generations IMO had some potential but then you've got TV show politics in there; should have hung more on Kirk as he's in the A plot but there's this insane desire to make sure everyone else had got something to do. Imagine if Star Wars did what these films did and every now and then the plot just stopped so we could see Lando overcoming some minor personal obstacle that has no real bearing on the plot.

Warcry
2016-08-23, 08:30 PM
I'd seriously argue with Picard making much impact; Patrick Stewart, with his decade as Professor X, his nice-blokishness, his showreel Extras scenes and his social media bromance with Ian McKellen had made a lot of impact but I'm not sure how much that transfers back onto the show or character anymore than the 'smirk' meme does on TAS.
Patrick Stewart is great and everything you say about him is true, but none of that happens if Captain Picard didn't make him a household name first. Without TNG he wouldn't have been anything more than a mildly successful, prematurely bald theatre actor.

And maybe it's just that we move in very different circles outside of this place, but I can't go more than a few days without seeing people post Picard facepalm screencaps or making "there are four lights!" references or seeing random quotes pop up. Hell, I've even had coworkers send me Picard memes when they're having a rough day. References to him and his show certainly pop up a whole lot more in my daily life than the TOS crowd do, simply because TNG strikes the same nostalgic chord with my peers that G1 Transformers does. But again, maybe that's just me. :)

It was a popular show a lot of people watched but not much more; Kirk, Spock and McCoy are full-blown cultural touchstones.
Honestly, I don't know if I'd agree with that. Twenty years ago, absolutely they were. But I don't even know if you could say that Trek itself is a full-blown cultural touchstone anymore. The brand has just lost so much lustre over the last couple decades, and the new movies have done nothing to restore it.

But in general, I think Kirk, Spock and McCoy are towering sci-fi cultural icons...to anyone old enough to remember when TOS and the movies were the only Trek. Most people who grew up with the TNG/DS9/VOY block of shows airing likely don't give them the same weight, though naturally if they're Trek fans they'd still know and care about them. And people who grew up after that...well, most of them probably don't care at all. :(

I'm cautiously optimistic that the new series will be good enough to change that.

Regarding the diminishing box office, I think it's kind-of inevitable with any franchise.
That makes sense but I don't know if reality bears it out. I mean, obviously the "new toy" lustre comes off eventually, but a good series will be able to keep profitably trucking along even if it's not putting up billion-dollar receipts. After all, James Bond movies have been solidly successful for five decades now.

The problem is that the new Trek movies weren't even all that successful to begin with. They out-sold the TNG movies, but they also had triple the budget, so they really didn't do anything to improve the franchise's standing beyond "middling box office success". Taking a step back from that isn't the same as Star Wars or Marvel seeing a dip in ticket sales -- Beyond looks like it's only a hair above being a Nemesis-tier disaster right now even with 200M+ in sales.

Generations IMO had some potential
I think I watched Generations again last year, but it's such a blah movie I'm not even sure anymore. I had to double-check to make sure all the plot points that I thought happened there, actually did.

But even above and beyond the misuse of Kirk, the nonsense plot (I can use the Nexus to go back in time to any moment I choose? Well, I'd better go have a fistfight with Sauron instead of saving my brother and nephew, then arresting the man for having illegal weapons before he uses them on anything!) the biggest problem with Generations is that it feels like Serenity. That is to say, a movie made years after the fact to wrap up a series that didn't get a proper finale. The problem being, of course, that TNG did get a proper finale (a better one that the film itself) just a year before that.

And that just makes Generations itself feel a bit uncomfortable -- it's a terrible standalone film since it relies on numerous plot points and minor recurring characters from the series to make it work. And at the same time it makes you wonder why, if those characters and plots were so important, the series itself couldn't be bothered to give them proper resolution.

Cliffjumper
2016-08-23, 09:52 PM
Patrick Stewart is great and everything you say about him is true, but none of that happens if Captain Picard didn't make him a household name first. Without TNG he wouldn't have been anything more than a mildly successful, prematurely bald theatre actor.

Undoubtedly; he'd never have got Xavier without that level of exposure for one. But it doesn't mean it's why people still like him and why he's still relevant - in these days of social media allowing slebs to walk among us things like this are more random; look at Will Wheaton and George Takei, beloved internet personalities long after they ceased to be particularly relevant in the mediums that gave them their first exposure.

And maybe it's just that we move in very different circles outside of this place, but I can't go more than a few days without seeing people post Picard facepalm screencaps or making "there are four lights!" references or seeing random quotes pop up. Hell, I've even had coworkers send me Picard memes when they're having a rough day. References to him and his show certainly pop up a whole lot more in my daily life than the TOS crowd do, simply because TNG strikes the same nostalgic chord with my peers that G1 Transformers does. But again, maybe that's just me. :)

Might be different circles, yeah. But at the same time the facepalm's just a meme; is Leonidas a cultural icon? Or Ned Stark or Boromir? Sometimes these things just take off.

Honestly, I don't know if I'd agree with that. Twenty years ago, absolutely they were. But I don't even know if you could say that Trek itself is a full-blown cultural touchstone anymore. The brand has just lost so much lustre over the last couple decades, and the new movies have done nothing to restore it.

I'd agree there; while naturally DS9, Voyager, Enterprise, the TNG movies and the reboot have all been broadly successful the profile's been dwindling and the property seems to be struggling for relevance. The lack of a simple conflict to focus on is certainly hurting it in cinemas, compared to Marvel Hero v Villains or the Rebels v the Empire or Autobots v Decepticons; there's no over-arching hook to quickly clue non-fans in, which means the big screen really doesn't have much to offer than the small screen. I'd hesitate to say it's too smart because Trek's quite often dumb but the habit of constantly rehabilitating any villainous species and starting up another one I think prevents the space battle extravaganza that'd let Trek really clean up in the cinemas. If they dropped the attempts at characterisation and the TV-style plots and just did a big space battle of the Enterprise kicking the crap out of a Klingon fleet with lots of bantery one-liners it'd probably sell like gangbusters.

That makes sense but I don't know if reality bears it out. I mean, obviously the "new toy" lustre comes off eventually, but a good series will be able to keep profitably trucking along even if it's not putting up billion-dollar receipts. After all, James Bond movies have been solidly successful for five decades now.

Bond's different where basically any element can be changed and people actively love the tropes - which I think the TOS films did manage to replicate, with running character jokes like Kirk ignoring any orders, Scotty's engineering miracles, Spock's comical non-sequiters, McCoy calling people savages and that sort of thing - character shorthand is the lifeblood of action cinema. But there was never the serious option of recasting people as the series went on; that sort of infusion of fresh interest has always been crucial to Bond's cinema success.

Bond's an exceptionally well-managed franchise too; by default or design each lead's been moved on at the cusp of the shine coming off rather than waiting for a bomb; success has bred success and the producers can take a few years off if the market's not right (e.g. playing it cool when the Cold War ended); trends are largely resisted (so there's been no serious attempt to respond to the success of, say, Bourne) and the brand's never really been diluted by anyone trying to turn out annual sequels or turn out a TV mini-series to cash in.

There are exceptions to the rule as there are with any - Harry Potter and to a lesser extend Twilight managed to keep figures up though having a set saga to move through, ditto Star Wars. But I think when your plan is to do a standalone film, see how the figures look and then do another one if they're good you're going to be in the cycle of reacting and left wide open.

The problem is that the new Trek movies weren't even all that successful to begin with. They out-sold the TNG movies, but they also had triple the budget, so they really didn't do anything to improve the franchise's standing beyond "middling box office success". Taking a step back from that isn't the same as Star Wars or Marvel seeing a dip in ticket sales -- Beyond looks like it's only a hair above being a Nemesis-tier disaster right now even with 200M+ in sales.

I think the first one benefitted from weak opposition, certainly - pre-Marvel, Sony's X-Men/Spider-Man/F4 on the wane and abolutely no sign of Star Wars coming back. Now the landscape's much more different, with sci-fantasy action dominating the box office and yeh, it's not hard to imagine the whole thing being on ice. The new cast certainly don't seem to have captured the imagination particularly well, and it's just another reboot/remake series doing the rounds.

Right now Star Trek's beginning to look like something which has ran its' course and then some - it's certainly hard to see how it'd actually transcend in cinema again when things more suited to outright spectacle with the tech to do them justice are everywhere.

But even above and beyond the misuse of Kirk, the nonsense plot (I can use the Nexus to go back in time to any moment I choose? Well, I'd better go have a fistfight with Sauron instead of saving my brother and nephew, then arresting the man for having illegal weapons before he uses them on anything!) the biggest problem with Generations is that it feels like Serenity. That is to say, a movie made years after the fact to wrap up a series that didn't get a proper finale. The problem being, of course, that TNG did get a proper finale (a better one that the film itself) just a year before that.

Mmm; by potential I felt it had promise if they'd focused on the baton-handing and easing the TNG cast onto the big screen but yeah, it'd need a near-total rewrite and TBH the big gap between the series in fiction would make it impossible - your ideal would be a Force Awakens-style thing where aged beloved original characters mingle with new ones and gradually fade away with dignity but the hundred years or so obviously made that impossible.

So hooking Kirk in made sense even if the way he was handled wasn't great; get him to mingle a little especially with Picard (their actual interact is pretty good) and ease the rest in gently. Instead it's being made by all the TV people all worried about being usurped, so Shatner's tacked on and everyone's got to get their little subplot or show-off scene.

TNG's weakness in these terms is its' number of characters, really - TOS had Kirk, Spock and McCoy; Scotty, Sulu, Chekov and Uhura were just amiable background who rarely did much of huge import but be likable. For the films they're all happy enough with a scene in each movie that lets them show off a little bit, the odd line and leave it at that. Whereas Generations felt like it was obliged to touch base with everyone and their same threads we'd been watching for seven years, with the time restriction seeing them reduced to crass repetition - Data wants to be more human, Picard's emotionally repressed, blah.

Toddler duty calls...

Tetsuro
2016-08-23, 10:45 PM
The gap between TNG ending and Generations isn't even that big; it came out during the first half of DS9's third season, so it was only slightly longer than if it'd simply been another season.

I mean sure, the stardate in the film would place it way at the end of said season, but First Contact did the same and it was referred to in much earlier episode in DS9, which suggest a massive disconnect between the writers of the TV series and the movies.

Or maybe they just didn't care.

inflatable dalek
2016-08-24, 05:09 PM
See, I'd agree it's Patrick Stewart who is the icon rather than Picard, but equally it's Shatner, Nimoy who make Kirk and Spock (and Kelly with McCoy to a lesser extent because he was a much more private man), I don't think people generally distinguish between the actors and the characters in either cases. When was the last time anyone did a Captain Kirk impression that sounded anything like he did in the series?

I think it's easy to forget because of the way the film's died on their arses just how successful a TV show TNG was, IIRC All Good Things is the most watched episode of Trek ever and it would have been a regular top ten series had it been networked. It's comfortably the most popular Trek TV show during its first run by a massive margin. Considering its rough contemporaries that enjoyed syndication success as well (and helped knock DS9 down the charts) Baywatch and Xena are being revived it's hard not seeing there being a Captain Picard Show based film happening now if it had been called anything but Trek. Everyone involved seems to regard 94ish (around the time of the Shatner/Stewart Time cover) as the absolute peak of Trek's success and that's mostly down to the TNG crew.

Of course, being a big TV icon doesn't automatically guarantee film success (ask the Robot from Lost in Space), but they really had a good chance of achieving it and threw it away. Especially as the only real obstacle-the large for film cast-wasn't really a problem by the end of the series. They'd worked out what people liked and the show had firmly become the Picard-Data------Worf---------------------------------------------------------The Others series rather than the ensemble it started out as. That's not much different from the original's set up. For all the fan moaning no one was going to see the films for a Geordi plot (though letting him speak sometimes might have been nice).

I think that might be where the current films are going wrong. The original Kirk, Spock and McCoy became icons because of the actors, how they played off each other and how that inspired the writers (pretty much every gimmick of Spock's was invented by Nimoy!). The secondary characters were almost entirely defined by what the actors could get out of the material. Who the show was about was basically an organic discovery over that first season.

Same with TNG, there were very different plans for it when it started and what it became was entirely down to Stewart and Spiner going down really, really well with audiences.

The new films are trying to recreate the TOS chemistry exactly rather than letting the actors develop their own. Leading to odd things like Simon Pegg and Anton Yelchin intentionally doing bad accents to mimick the not intentionally bad but just the result of them doing the best they can predecessors. Or Urban doing a full on Kelly impression despite McCoy never really feeling like the same character because he's now built like Judge Dredd.

So rather than playing to their strengths the films being written around what is shown to work everything is straitjacketed in a way even normal remakes aren't. In many ways doing the remake "In continuity" is probably going to be seen as a mistake. Chris Pine is always going to be hamstrung by the fact he has to grow up to be William Shatner.

Zoe Saldana is actually an interesting example of this. She's the most succesful member of the new cast and has good roles in big films with fan bases (including of course, the most successful film of all time). In normal circumstances this would have had the same result as Fox realising the blue naked woman in X-Men First Class is suddenly the lead in a massive film series and by gum she's going to have a much more front and central role in the sequels. But because Uhura is official third tier behind Scotty they've never really pushed that advantage and have gone back and forth on how important the character is, especially in Beyond when it firmly swings to "Spock's most important relationship is with Bones, that who he plays off most" again.

Warcry
2016-08-24, 06:03 PM
Might be different circles, yeah. But at the same time the facepalm's just a meme; is Leonidas a cultural icon? Or Ned Stark or Boromir? Sometimes these things just take off.
Maybe not cultural in the proper, capital-C "Culture" way that academics would talk about. But pop culture is a different animal, and from that perspective some of them probably are. Leonidas in particular seems to be pretty much here to stay, between "THIS! IS! SPARTA!" and all of the hilarious facial expressions that people use for reaction images, but it's anyone's guess whether we'll still be bringing him up when the movie is thirty years old, like people do now with Picard.

You're right that the facepalm (and various other Picard images) are just memes, but memes are a form of communication that only work when you recognize what they're referencing, at least to some degree (which is why anime memes or stuff based on kids' shows post-Beast Wars always fly right over my head). So if a lot of people use Picard in memes it means that there's a lot of people with at least a basic cultural understanding of who and what Picard is, just like nobody would joke about Shatner's stilted delivery or go "He's dead, Jim!" if they didn't have a basic cultural understanding of the TOS main three.

In fact, you know what? TNG itself explained this far better than I could ever hope to.

"Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra." :)

The lack of a simple conflict to focus on is certainly hurting it in cinemas
I don't know why this never occurred to me, but this is 100% truth. The TOS movies were able to use the Klingons as a vague, looming threat and did a pretty good job of that (it's been a while since I've watched them, but I think the Klingons were in all but TWOK as either the primary or secondary baddies), but the TNG era lacked any real solid, first-string enemies that could fill that role -- the Borg never work as anything other than a one-and-done big event baddie, and the producers had allowed DS9 to rope in the rest of the known enemies. In retrospect it's a shame they didn't try to build the Romulans up as a running antagonist for movie-era TNG, since they were easily the most memorable of Picard's antagonists on the TV show and it would have made Nemesis a far more fitting end to the TNG franchise than it actually was.

And the new movies don't do much better.

Bond's different where basically any element can be changed and people actively love the tropes - which I think the TOS films did manage to replicate, with running character jokes like Kirk ignoring any orders, Scotty's engineering miracles, Spock's comical non-sequiters, McCoy calling people savages and that sort of thing - character shorthand is the lifeblood of action cinema. But there was never the serious option of recasting people as the series went on; that sort of infusion of fresh interest has always been crucial to Bond's cinema success.
I'm not sure that those same things don't apply to Star Trek, though. They've had a lot of success replacing the cast, the ship, the antagonists, the setting, etc. in the TV versions of the franchise, so I don't think that people would reject those things out of hand on the big screen either. It's just a matter of doing it well, and the Trek franchise hasn't produced many good movies since the 80s.

Right now Star Trek's beginning to look like something which has ran its' course and then some - it's certainly hard to see how it'd actually transcend in cinema again when things more suited to outright spectacle with the tech to do them justice are everywhere.
I think the new TV show might breathe new life into the franchise, but as it stands right now it doesn't look like there's much life left in it. And honestly I think the new movies have hurt rather than helped. Regardless of quality, they've mostly avoided the usual "flavour" of older Trek stuff in favour of being fairly paint-by-numbers action pieces, which probably leaves the new generation of viewers feeling like Trek isn't much but a Star Wars knockoff.

Mmm; by potential I felt it had promise if they'd focused on the baton-handing and easing the TNG cast onto the big screen but yeah, it'd need a near-total rewrite and TBH the big gap between the series in fiction would make it impossible - your ideal would be a Force Awakens-style thing where aged beloved original characters mingle with new ones and gradually fade away with dignity but the hundred years or so obviously made that impossible.
I get what you mean. I'm not sure a movie that focused more heavily on torch-passing would have felt any fresher, though. The series brought in McCoy, Spock, Sarek and Scotty, after all, seeing the original cast alongside the TNG crew didn't have the novelty that it once did by the time the movies rolled around.

TNG's weakness in these terms is its' number of characters, really - TOS had Kirk, Spock and McCoy; Scotty, Sulu, Chekov and Uhura were just amiable background who rarely did much of huge import but be likable. For the films they're all happy enough with a scene in each movie that lets them show off a little bit, the odd line and leave it at that. Whereas Generations felt like it was obliged to touch base with everyone and their same threads we'd been watching for seven years, with the time restriction seeing them reduced to crass repetition - Data wants to be more human, Picard's emotionally repressed, blah.
Oh, absolutely. TNG's big cast helped to make it a more dynamic TV series than TOS ever was, but it hurt the transition to the big screen. Even with the scripts actively trying to find stuff for everyone to do, the movies mostly turn into the Picard and Data show. Personally I think that's a natural evolution for TNG, since those two were easily the most popular characters (and the third most popular, Worf, was still on TV every week), and with less time to play with, obviously those two are the ones you want to focus on. But clearly there was a lot of pushback against it because all the other actors were used to being more than just glorified extras.

The new films are trying to recreate the TOS chemistry exactly rather than letting the actors develop their own. Leading to odd things like Simon Pegg and Anton Yelchin intentionally doing bad accents to mimick the not intentionally bad but just the result of them doing the best they can predecessors. Or Urban doing a full on Kelly impression despite McCoy never really feeling like the same character because he's now built like Judge Dredd.
This is a good point, and it's something that bugs me about the new movies. I do think that Chris Pine does a good job of making Kirk his own, and Zoe Saldana actually gets the chance to play Uhura as a character, but the rest of the cast seem like they're pantomiming, or parodying the original series. Some of them do better than others (Urban's Kelley impression is a lot of fun even if, like you say, he's got nothing in common with the man physically). The new Chekov in particular is so painful that, shamefully, I was actually glad when the actor died simply so I'd never have to see it again.

Zoe Saldana is actually an interesting example of this. She's the most succesful member of the new cast and has good roles in big films with fan bases (including of course, the most successful film of all time). In normal circumstances this would have had the same result as Fox realising the blue naked woman in X-Men First Class is suddenly the lead in a massive film series and by gum she's going to have a much more front and central role in the sequels. But because Uhura is official third tier behind Scotty they've never really pushed that advantage and have gone back and forth on how important the character is, especially in Beyond when it firmly swings to "Spock's most important relationship is with Bones, that who he plays off most" again.
I don't know if I'd agree with that. I haven't seen Beyond, so I can't comment there, but in the first two movies I felt like Uhura was a solid #3 behind Kirk and Spock in terms of screen time and characterization, definitely ahead of McCoy and Scotty. It was one of the things I spotted right away, and just assumed it was down to them wanting more prominent female representation in the series since it's not the 1960s anymore.

[EDIT]
I think it's easy to forget because of the way the film's died on their arses just how successful a TV show TNG was, IIRC All Good Things is the most watched episode of Trek ever and it would have been a regular top ten series had it been networked. It's comfortably the most popular Trek TV show during its first run by a massive margin. Considering its rough contemporaries that enjoyed syndication success as well (and helped knock DS9 down the charts) Baywatch and Xena are being revived it's hard not seeing there being a Captain Picard Show based film happening now if it had been called anything but Trek. Everyone involved seems to regard 94ish (around the time of the Shatner/Stewart Time cover) as the absolute peak of Trek's success and that's mostly down to the TNG crew.
This is true, for sure. It's easy to forget that in it's day, TNG was basically the be-all, end-all of televised "space" sci-fi. It's success basically relaunched the whole genre and led to who knows how many other shows taking off, not just Trek spinoffs but stuff like B5, Stargate, Andromeda, and who knows how much else. Even stuff as far along as the new BSG at least partly owes it's existence to TNG opening the door.

Being "the spinoff" makes it hard to reboot on it's own, though, you're right. I wouldn't have been surprised at all to see the new universe find a way to bring in new versions of Picard, Data or Worf if the movies had gone on long enough, though.

inflatable dalek
2016-08-24, 06:40 PM
I think the new TV show might breathe new life into the franchise, but as it stands right now it doesn't look like there's much life left in it. And honestly I think the new movies have hurt rather than helped. Regardless of quality, they've mostly avoided the usual "flavour" of older Trek stuff in favour of being fairly paint-by-numbers action pieces, which probably leaves the new generation of viewers feeling like Trek isn't much but a Star Wars knockoff.

I'm clinging to the fact it's early days, but everything about this show feels so backwards looking and aimed solely at fans who were going to watch anyway. "Spock's Mother" ffs (if they've got recently career resurrected Winona Ryder to do a bit fine, that's sellable. "Spock's Mom" alone isn't). If you want a name from the wider series to guest star to get attention... this looks to be set at the time of SHOUTY Spock and Captain Pike, get Greenwood and Quinto to do a cameo! Or set it later and have Patrick Stewart do a crowd pleasing guest turn.


I get what you mean. I'm not sure a movie that focused more heavily on torch-passing would have felt any fresher, though. The series brought in McCoy, Spock, Sarek and Scotty, after all, seeing the original cast alongside the TNG crew didn't have the novelty that it once did by the time the movies rolled around.

TNG itself was always very sensible about not doing Kirk (two episodes were at one point "Bring Kirk back" ones, can you guess which?), and him and Stewart being together really should have all the oooommppphhhh it needs to make the film an event, especially as there were only two Trek captains at this point (Commander Sisko don't forget). It's just so fumbled. Kirk and Picard...make eggs!


But clearly there was a lot of pushback against it because all the other actors were used to being more than just glorified extras.

I don't think the other actors seem to mind the size of their roles so much as the quality (I think Marina Sirtis has always been upfront about just being happy to be working!). There's none of the bitterness you get from the original cast over "I was shrunk out", "He stole my lines", "I never got enough to do". Really they should all hate Spiner as much as anyone ever hated Shatner but everyone always seems pretty mellow and cool about it.



I don't know if I'd agree with that. I haven't seen Beyond, so I can't comment there, but in the first two movies I felt like Uhura was a solid #3 behind Kirk and Spock in terms of screen time and characterization, definitely ahead of McCoy and Scotty. It was one of the things I spotted right away, and just assumed it was down to them wanting more prominent female representation in the series since it's not the 1960s anymore.


I think she has like, two lines with Spock in the new one (though their relationship is the basis for one of the best gags, it's a gag between McCoy and Spock), for the rest of it she and Sulu are basically listening to Idris Elba give exposition.

One other thing to remember about the TNG films is that Stewart is only about a decade younger than Shatner. He's older than Bill was in TMP in Generations and older than he was in the Undiscovered Country in Nemesis (though the general lack of energy in that film makes him--and the rest of the cast--feel even older than they are). Playing him as an action hero was a ludicrous thing to have done and by the final film it never convinces. In VI both of Shatner's fights (balls in knees and against himself) are played for laughs. In Nemesis we're supposed to think Picard can take on an army of monsters by himself and win.

Action Picard only works in FC, and there because it's presented as inherently wrong. If Picard had been treated more like Kirk was in the TOS films (there's very few big fight scenes, Kurge being the main exception. Otherwise it's sitting on the bridge, plotting and occasionally shouting "FIRE!") they'd have gotten away with it. Maybe keep Hawk around to do the rough stuff considering Riker and Worf really stop looking convincing at it by this point as well.

Cliffjumper
2016-08-24, 10:45 PM
I think the problem with the TNG films is as said they're the Picard and Data show but there's also the seeming obligation to give the rest something to do; whereas the TOS ones and the TF films for two examples are the Kirk/Spock/maybe a bit McCoy but it kinda varies show/the Optimus and Bumblebee show with the rest making up the numbers - and it's a format that works because people who like Chekov or Ironhide will be happy enough making the best out of their little lines and odd scene in the sun; the TNG ones fall between the two stools as they put nearly everyone in (I seem to remember Crusher gets sidelined in the first three pretty majorly; I've still yet to see four - and I'm yet to work out how Insurrection jumped so far up my running order) and then fail to do much with them. IV is the only one to really be anything like demographic and that's because there's basically no plot.

The new films have cost the franchise the high ground without much gain, yeah - I think they're going to be pretty harshly looked upon in 10-20 years time for sure, whereas the TNG ones are always going to have the TNG fans who love the TNG crew keeping them alive. I've only seen the first one - Into Darkness is around somewhere but probably in a box somewhere at least a year's worth of viewing away. It left me cold because everyone is either playing or playing off the TOS actors rather than the characters; it's either homage or subversion, like the idiotic "OMFG Kirk and Spock are rivals now! SYKE NOW THEY'RE BUDS!!!!" shit.

It might well be in the future that it gets the TF movie treatment, though - I could see a 2030s reboot with Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Worf, Dax and 7 of 9 thrown in or something, like the way the Bay films started off as G1-inspired before lobbing in stuff like the Fallen, Drift and Lockdown.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-08-25, 03:21 PM
Speaking as somebody who doesn't give a shit and hasn't seen the new one yet, I genuinely think they would have been better off just doing something new with these films right from the start.

Considering the original conceit of the show seems to have been "utopian vision of the future", running with "let's just rehash what they did 50 years ago" is monumentally ****ing stupid even before you factor in my biased schtick. It's point missing on an epic scale and shows a complete misunderstanding of what you're doing.

I mean okay, taken as Abrams' audition for Star Wars, we got the Force Awakens out of it, but he could easily have done the same thing with an original pitch rather than reducing the usually quite cerebral Trek to another generic all-sizzle/no-sausage sci-fi action movie.

[/goes back to watching Doctor Who and playing Pokémon]

Warcry
2016-08-25, 06:08 PM
I'm clinging to the fact it's early days, but everything about this show feels so backwards looking and aimed solely at fans who were going to watch anyway. "Spock's Mother" ffs (if they've got recently career resurrected Winona Ryder to do a bit fine, that's sellable. "Spock's Mom" alone isn't). If you want a name from the wider series to guest star to get attention... this looks to be set at the time of SHOUTY Spock and Captain Pike, get Greenwood and Quinto to do a cameo! Or set it later and have Patrick Stewart do a crowd pleasing guest turn.
The what now? They think people care about Amanda Grayson enough to watch the show because of her?

Honestly, what puts me off the most is all the talk about, on the one hand, casting everyone in a "colour-blind, gender-blind" way, and then on the other hand going off about how the lead character is definitely gonna be a female minority. It just comes off as "we have no idea what characters we want to write or what we want to explore through them, so we'll just cast whoever and pretend it's us being progressive", with a dash of ignorance tossed in about just how diverse the cast of the last three shows had been, and how little it mattered to the finished product. DS9, Voyager and Enterprise had black actors, Asian actors, a Native American, a Middle Eastern actor, various Europeans and probably others that I'm forgetting, but with the exception of Sisko everyone's background was either ignored completely or played for ugly stereotypes. If they actually cared about diversity surely it would make sense to create a diverse set of characters first and then cast people who fit that, rather than making things up as they go after casting a bunch of randoms?

Though honestly, it's probably a moot point anyway since nobody's going to watch it in the US. I hope I'm wrong, but running it on a random streaming service that nobody subscribes to is a good recipe for getting cancelled after one season regardless of quality.

It's just so fumbled. Kirk and Picard...make eggs!
And get their asses kicked by an man who looks even older than they do!

Honestly, if they wanted to do a passing-the-torch movie they should have done a time travel plot so the two Enterprises could have worked side by side, crews and all. That might have been worth the price of admission.

I don't think the other actors seem to mind the size of their roles so much as the quality (I think Marina Sirtis has always been upfront about just being happy to be working!). There's none of the bitterness you get from the original cast over "I was shrunk out", "He stole my lines", "I never got enough to do". Really they should all hate Spiner as much as anyone ever hated Shatner but everyone always seems pretty mellow and cool about it.
I don't think the pushback would have necessarily come from the TNG cast (who, as you say, seemed to have been a lot more chill than the TNG bunch, probably on account of actually liking each other). But the writers would have been used to writing like that and were probably set in their ways, as were the fans who would have expected all the mains to at least get something to do even if it was irrelevant.

One other thing to remember about the TNG films is that Stewart is only about a decade younger than Shatner. He's older than Bill was in TMP in Generations and older than he was in the Undiscovered Country in Nemesis (though the general lack of energy in that film makes him--and the rest of the cast--feel even older than they are). Playing him as an action hero was a ludicrous thing to have done and by the final film it never convinces. In VI both of Shatner's fights (balls in knees and against himself) are played for laughs. In Nemesis we're supposed to think Picard can take on an army of monsters by himself and win.
It's true that Stewart was older than Shatner at those places in their careers, but age in Hollywood is always something that's more about perception than reality. The premature baldness and grey hair made Picard look a decade older than Stewart actually was, which meant that he didn't show very many visible signs of aging as the series and the movies went on (in fact I'd say older Picard looked more physically capable, since Patrick Stewart seemed to have put on a bit of muscle in the movie era). Whereas Shatner had got very obviously old and fat by TWOK, at least in comparison to the handsome young man he was during the series.

Picard doing the action hero thing was silly for all sorts of other reasons, mind, since it didn't fit with either the character or the tone of the series, but I didn't find him to be an especially-unbelievable action star. Not when Hollywood keeps trotting out Stallone and Arnie for one more go-around, anyway.

the TNG ones fall between the two stools as they put nearly everyone in (I seem to remember Crusher gets sidelined in the first three pretty majorly; I've still yet to see four - and I'm yet to work out how Insurrection jumped so far up my running order) and then fail to do much with them. IV is the only one to really be anything like demographic and that's because there's basically no plot.
From what I can remember, Crusher probably fares the worst of all. I don't think she actually contributes anything meaningful in any of the four, and if you told me she had less that twenty lines across all of them I wouldn't disbelieve you. Worf was a big part of First Contact but was otherwise pretty useless, to the point where I'm kind of surprised they bothered jumping through hoops to include him in the last couple. Troi is mostly just there to flirt with Riker, who doesn't fare especially well himself (but then Frakes directed two of the things, so he probably didn't mind). Geordi, in spite of being the poster boy for unused characters, actually isn't, since he had a meaty role in Generations and had lots to do in First Contact too. It's just that he's completed disappeared in the last two.

I honestly don't think Insurrection or Nemesis would be much different if all they'd brought back from the series was Picard with Data as his first officer. Well, aside from losing the "payoff" to the Riker/Troi romance that hadn't had any heat to it in a decade. And yet they took pains to make sure everyone was on-screen and getting a few lines in, like you said, and that really did eat up time that could have been better used on something else.

It might well be in the future that it gets the TF movie treatment, though - I could see a 2030s reboot with Kirk, Spock, McCoy and Worf, Dax and 7 of 9 thrown in or something, like the way the Bay films started off as G1-inspired before lobbing in stuff like the Fallen, Drift and Lockdown.
I wouldn't be surprised to see them do that, or to do a new Enterprise-focused TV series starring Kirk and co. with the crews from the other series flitting in and out as guest stars (i.e. Picard and the TNG crew are on the Stargazer, and they show up to help Kirk a few times a season).

Speaking as somebody who doesn't give a shit and hasn't seen the new one yet, I genuinely think they would have been better off just doing something new with these films right from the start.
Yes, probably. The franchise really seems like it needs to be dynamited and rebuilt from the ground up. As much as I love some of the old stuff, I don't think they should be tying into that when the old stuff going off the rails is a big part of why the franchise is where it is right now.

Heinrad
2016-08-26, 10:08 AM
Maybe keep Hawk around to do the rough stuff considering Riker and Worf really stop looking convincing at it by this point as well.

Hawk was already commanding DS9, intimidating the hell out of the Cardassians.

-crickets chirp-

Oh, come now, I can't be the only person here to have seen Spencer: For Hire, can I?

To, kind of, defend the reboot movies, they are fun. They probably would benefit more from drawing from a TV series, and other than a ship reveal, I've seen nothing about Discovery. In extremely short bursts, they're trying to build up the character relationships that were built up over the course of a season or 3. Beyond felt like the right kind of universe building.

The down side to all this is, to make sure they(hopefully) draw in the money, they need to be far more big-budget summer popcorn blockbusters than any of the Trek movies before.

inflatable dalek
2016-09-08, 01:00 PM
Happy 50th birthday Star Trek!


I'm off to London overnight to see The Wrath of Khan at the cinema.

Cyberstrike nTo
2016-09-08, 04:01 PM
I haven't even considered going to see this after how much I didn't enjoy the first two. I'll probably see it on DVD or something eventually, but the first two made it pretty clear that the reboots aren't for me. I'd imagine I'm not the only old-school Trek fan who thinks that way, and the franchise has never really been embraced by the same generic action movie crowd that Star Wars or even Transformers manage to bring in. So if the fans are souring on things the box office performance is going to show it.

Also, I wanted to reply to something dalek said in a different, comic-spoiler-filled thread (http://tfarchive.com/community/showpost.php?p=759996&postcount=57) but didn't want to totally derail yet another comic discussion thread into Star Trek rambling, so...


It probably depends on the market you're in, and how the shows were/are distributed there, but here at least Voyager has always been the stronger of the two shows and it's not even really close. Going back to when they were first broadcast, unless my memory is failing me DS9 was crammed into a Saturday afternoon death slot while Voyager got broadcast in prime time. And Voyager thrived in syndication -- it ran on local channels for ages, and then on the cable sci-fi network (alongside TNG and TOS but, notably, not DS9) for ages more. I think the Trek reruns have finally been dropped from the rotation this year, but there was Voyager available on my TV screen for two decades and I can't say that about DS9.

IIRC in the US both TNG (I saw in one interview with Roddenberry where he stated that the was the ONLY way he agreed to the show because of his resentment over network interference on TOS) and DS9 were first-run syndicated shows. Voyager was, if you pardon the expression, the flagship show for the UPN and so was Enterprise.

I think TNG being successful as a first-run syndicated show opened the doors to other studios to give shows like Babylon 5 and Xena a way to create other sci-fi and fantasy shows that would never found an audience on the four major US networks (CBS, ABC, NBC, and Fox) in the late 80s/early 90s just before the cable network explosion happened and probably helped that in some ways in finding out that sci-fi and fantasy shows could do well ratings wise, make money, and be thought-provoking and dramatic.

inflatable dalek
2016-09-09, 04:41 PM
Seeing Star Trek II with an enthusiastic crown (the sort of people who cheer when Montalban reveals his chest. Guess what Shatner line got a round of applause) on the actual anniversarry was huge fun and well worth what turned out to be quite an expensive--mainly because of buying crap I don't need--couple of days.

interestingly the 70mm print was actually from the film's first UK release, complete with BBFC certificate at the start rating it "A". Which taught me something I didn't know, the original UK version of the film cut out the close ups of the worms going in and out of ears. As it was an old print (though generally in good nick) there were a few moments with brief visual and dialogue jumps and at first I thought that was what had happened, but when it did so again with the second ear sequence I realised editing had been done!

Apparently the VHS was uncut, but with a higher certificate (a 15 by then thanks to the change in how things are named). My mother is also convinced from her 34 year old memories that something else was edited as well, but if so I didn't spot it and she swears blind the Jabba the Hut scene was in Star Wars the first time she saw it so she may be a mental.

Pleasingly the Virgin Train I caught back was called the Enterprise.

Oh, and Simon Furman of all people was hanging around outside New Street Station. Luckily I already knew he was at a Birmingham comic convention tomorrow or I might have started to think I was a mental as well, especially as I had the new War Within collection on me adding to the unlikely nature of the coincidence.

It was probably lucky he was both too far ahead and turning to go a different direction to me so as I couldn't say hello, he looked lost and might have foolishly assumed my local knowledge would make it worth asking me directions. When people ask me for directions they get lost-er.

(Though as I ran into James Roberts at Manchester train station earlier in the year these are the places you need to go to hang out with famous TF comic peeps, not conventions. Bob Budiansky can often be seen at Crewe).

Tetsuro
2016-09-11, 01:25 PM
I'm watching Voyager and I'm still trying to figure out what exactly it is that does wrong about all those type of episodes I liked so much about TNG. I know a lot of people hate the "space anomaly of the week" episodes but I quite like them.

Maybe it's the overreliance on technobabble without giving any sort of a "basic" metaphor to make it relatable to the audience so it just winds up becoming a deus ex machina in itself - technobabble happens, we're just expected to think whatever the hell it means works and there's no tension.

Cyberstrike nTo
2016-09-11, 03:23 PM
I'm watching Voyager and I'm still trying to figure out what exactly it is that does wrong about all those type of episodes I liked so much about TNG. I know a lot of people hate the "space anomaly of the week" episodes but I quite like them.

Maybe it's the overreliance on technobabble without giving any sort of a "basic" metaphor to make it relatable to the audience so it just winds up becoming a deus ex machina in itself - technobabble happens, we're just expected to think whatever the hell it means works and there's no tension.

For me it's the overuse of time travel stories (a running joke of the series is that time travel paradoxes give Janeway a headache) and from the end of season 3 and on the Borg go from a nightmare force that one Borg ship can destroy over half of Starfleet to a threat that one small-to-medium sized ship can beat every other week.
Also the character's arcs other than The Doctor, Torres, and Paris are not as good as they are on TNG and DS9.

As far as the technobabble goes I think it's a problem but I think long time Trekkers basically understand it, but casual and/or new fans generally probably would have a hard time or won't understand it.

inflatable dalek
2016-09-16, 02:16 PM
Picard is just a **** in Homeward isn't he? "HOW DARE YOU SAVE THESE DYING PEOPLE WORF'S MENTIONED ONCE SEVEN YEARS AGO FOSTER BROTHER! HOW CAN I MASTERBATE OVER THEIR EXPLODING PLANET NOW??!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Warcry
2016-09-16, 03:30 PM
I'm watching Voyager and I'm still trying to figure out what exactly it is that does wrong about all those type of episodes I liked so much about TNG. I know a lot of people hate the "space anomaly of the week" episodes but I quite like them.
I love TNG, but in a lot of places it's really obvious that they've got a terrible script and the episode only works because the cast makes it work. Everyone always talks about how awesome Stewart and Spiner are, and Dorn and Frakes sometimes get the credit that they're due as well, and Burton, Sirtis and McFadden were fine for the roles they had even if they didn't set the world on fire. And there was also Diana Muldaur for a season (TBH I'm sad they didn't keep her around), and a great recurring cast filled with people like Whoopi Goldberg, Majel Barrett, Michelle Forbes, Colm Meaney, etc... And the writing staff seemed to have a great handle on really bringing out their characters' personalities, even when the story they were doing it in was shit.

Voyager didn't have that. The writers never seemed to know what to do with their characters, so characters like Chakotay, Kim, Tuvok, Kes or, heck, even Janeway never really got those little endearing moments to shine outside of when they were the focus of the episode. And the actors just weren't up to the level of their TNG counterparts either. So even though the show carried on the TNG formula, they did it with writing that wasn't quite up to par and a cast that didn't have the same ability to make something out of nothing.

It's like making a gourmet recipe with dollar-store ingredients. The end result will be recognizable, but still disappointing.

Picard is just a **** in Homeward isn't he? "HOW DARE YOU SAVE THESE DYING PEOPLE WORF'S MENTIONED ONCE SEVEN YEARS AGO FOSTER BROTHER! HOW CAN I MASTERBATE OVER THEIR EXPLODING PLANET NOW??!!!!!!!!!!!!"
The toweringly moralistic way in which he jumps on this is what really gets me. Like, obviously the rationale for the Prime Directive is that Federation resources are limited and they have neither the ability nor the inclination to play Vorlon with the lesser races of the galaxy, so they don't want to go around meddling in outside worlds' affairs and inadvertently creating a bunch of dependent client races that they're going to have to take care of. That's selfish, but not unreasonably so, and probably a good approach to take if you're not looking for low-tech slave races whose worlds you can plunder.

But in TNG and Voyager (and even Enterprise a few times, in spite of it not existing yet) the Prime Directive is treated like a quasi-religious commandment, "THOU SHALT NOT INTERFERE!" passed down from on high rather than the practical political rule that it seemed to be in TOS (and became again rather by necessity in DS9). And Picard in particular could get really sanctimonious about it, preaching about how it was morally right to let innocent people die because to do otherwise would be playing god. But the interesting thing was that he actually seemed to consistently believe it (well, Insurrection aside), and even though it probably wasn't meant to be seen this way, it makes for an interesting character flaw.

Tetsuro
2016-09-16, 07:42 PM
For me it's the overuse of time travel stories (a running joke of the series is that time travel paradoxes give Janeway a headache) and from the end of season 3 and on the Borg go from a nightmare force that one Borg ship can destroy over half of Starfleet to a threat that one small-to-medium sized ship can beat every other week.
Also the character's arcs other than The Doctor, Torres, and Paris are not as good as they are on TNG and DS9.
I don't think I can ever get over just how disappointing the Voyager finale really was. The closest thing all the various character arcs had to a closure were all in a timeline that was erased in favour of a new one. And yes, it really did bring Borg's villain decay to it's logical conclusion.

I mean, I'm still rewatching both, but while the jury is still out on which one I liked better as a whole, DS9 certainly had a stronger finale in terms of proper closure, tying up all the loose ends and showing us what happens to all these characters now. Voyager in the other hand got zilch.

inflatable dalek
2016-10-08, 05:44 PM
So I went to the big 50th anniversarry convention at the NEC today.

Myself, I'm glad it was on my doorstep, I had a fun day with friends and met some cool actors. Nicole de Boar was especially unexpectedly cool.

Had fun on the D bridge as well.

But if I'd come further or paid more it would have felt like a let down, and if I'd bought a weekend ticket it would feel like a rip off. There was not anything like enough to do to fill a entire day unless you really threw yourself into queuing (a desire not to do stopped me getting a couple of extra autographs). Needed more stalls and displays.

Shame it wasn't a bigger thing, but for what I went in for it was fine.

Some pics:

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10154224976794219.1073741865.611524218&type=1&l=2db69b1380

Tetsuro
2016-10-08, 07:51 PM
Did any of you ever go to that Federation Science European Tour thing that was in the late 90's?

Heinrad
2016-10-09, 11:38 PM
So, thanks to trying to figure out what's going on with some of the Kobali missions in the Delta Rising arc, I've started a rewatch of Voyager as well. It's........

I think I figured out why, as good as TNG and DS9 and as fluctuatingly good as Voyager are, I know why I've always like TOS, Enterprise despite Berman and Braga feeling the need to tie it in more to the TNG era than it should have been, and even the reboot movies better.

A sense of wonder.

Put it down to differences in writing styles, directing styles, actor choices, or even just differences in the way shows were done between the 60s and the 80s/90s. But here's Voyager, lost in a completely new area of space and it just seems to be same old same old. The only difference seems to be the aliens.

I'm in season 1 so far, and it's good, but the sense of desperation feels more forced or 'We need a convenient plot point to remind people they want to get home' than natural.

inflatable dalek
2016-10-10, 08:12 PM
Did any of you ever go to that Federation Science European Tour thing that was in the late 90's?

I'd not even heard of it till you mentioned it.

Finally got my scanner working, so here I am on the D bridge in all its glory (complete with oddly dirty carpet. Mind, thanks to HD we know that's not un-screen accurate).

https://twitter.com/InflatableDalek/status/785565219842121728

So, finished TNG. All Good Things is still a fantastic episode, better than all four films that followed it despite the core idea clearly not making any sense (if it's going back in time the anomaly should exist when the Paster first gets there, and then vanish after it is created. Not the other way round! Not to mention everyone acts as if it was created by three Enterprises when it wasn't...). Funny, thoughtful, actually has one great action scene despite not being an action story (the three nacelled Enterprise must have been designed by Sisko, it's as mean a mother ****er as the Defiant) and generally does the sort of thoughtful playful SF that the series always claimed to be at its best (as opposed to say, The Masterpiece Society which did it at its worse).

And at its best TNG is easily the equal of the original, it's just a pity the films (which are always going to be the default experience for more casual fans) are mostly so awful as to piss over its legacy. I'm convinced they're the main reason it's seen as a bit of a failed take on Trek now.

It really is depressing how First Contact is the only one of the films to actually be any good, and even then it's got a fairly crap script and is mainly saved by the direction and performances. Insurrection keeps getting called a "TV Episode" but that's insulting to most of the series.

And Nemesis is actually worse than I remembered. Especially Tom Hardy who I'd had down as the best thing in it, but is in fact a camp catwalk model who can't overcome the terrible backstory he has.

And amidst all the film's other much discussed flaws: For this one they couldn't use the now destroyed Voayger sets for various bits of the E so things like sickbay and quarters had to be newly built. And every single new Enterprise set in this film is terrible, they're all big dull grey rooms that don't remotely match the look of the pre-existing parts of the ship.

And the lighting! I know Generations gets flak for "All the light bulbs blowing at the same time", but for me there's a real artistry to how that was shot. Nemesis repeatedly looks like the dimmer switch is broken, adding to the miserable feeling of the whole thing.

And Data flat out saying B4 and Shinzon are irredeemable and incapable of improving themselves are the least Trek things ever (and clearly only there so as him taking over his brother's body as implied by the end can be seen as morally OK. Basically the message of this film is "Your autistic brother is worth less than you are").

Plus it's a silly thing to say about Shinzon who has gone from child slave to leader of a SPACE Empire.

Into early DS9 now. As a sign of how TV effects were catching up on mid-budget films, the Wolf 359 battle is nearly the equal of the First Contact opening. Mind, they clearly spent all the money for the year on it as every episode following feels very low key and there's been about three scenes not set on the station.

It's odd really, because I don't think season 1 is anyone's default "Let's watch some DS9!" of choice, so I've not seen most of this in years and in many ways it feels as odd compared to the rest of the series as TNG's early days famously do to that show. Dax is turned into a completely different character at some point down the line for example, the aloof smart scientist isn't remotely the same person as the party loving warrior woman who marries Worf.

And I don't like the dull middle manager guy playing Sisko, when does the cool bald psychopath replace him?

More seriously, it is odd they'd cast Avery Brooks and then force him to play it in an un-Avery Brooks a way as possible for the first three years. Even his voice sounds different! He often sounds borderline Jamaican in these early shows. It means he's comfortably the least interesting character here.

More cheerfully, early Kira always used to annoy me, but I guess after 177 episodes of Troi and Crusher any woman with personality is a relief as she's actually kind of awesome from the off this time around.

Tetsuro
2016-10-11, 04:17 PM
More cheerfully, early Kira always used to annoy me, but I guess after 177 episodes of Troi and Crusher any woman with personality is a relief as she's actually kind of awesome from the off this time around.
It helps that early Kira isn't weighed down by a hamfisted romance with Odo yet, either.

As for the Federation Science tour, apparently it took place between 1999 and 2003, taking places in various locales, including several in the UK (http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Star_Trek:_Federation_Science).

The little I do remember about it myself was that they had a variety of interactive attractions, ones I remember in particular were what was basically an early version of EyeToy where you flailed around in front of a camera touching virtual stuff (I can't actually remember what the content was), some centrifuge thing filled with blue liquid you could spin with a control panel, and this big (and not very good) recreation of the bridge with science stations you could do stuff on - the only one I tried had you go through spectrograms from various planets to see which ones had a breathable atmosphere - so the whole thing was a kind of combination of Star Trek with some real life science. They also had props and costumes on display like a Borg Alcove and the formal suits from Insurrection.

I actually found a video from what I assume was one of the German locations:

UZsmJiTosZo

I guess it's just a big deal to me since it's the only event of it's kind I've ever actually had a chance to participate in.

They also had a gift store where I convinced my mom to buy me a Playmates Enterprise-D.

Denyer
2016-10-18, 05:02 PM
https://imgur.com/gallery/wpZ4w

Sades
2016-10-19, 03:50 PM
This is why the aliens haven't contacted us yet.

Heinrad
2016-10-20, 10:10 PM
I figured it was because of the Kardashians.

Sades
2016-10-20, 10:20 PM
IMO Sadly symptom, not cause. Insert Cardassian/Kardashian joke here!

inflatable dalek
2016-10-24, 07:59 PM
Though it's reputation isn't anything like that of early TNG 9or VOY and ENT) a lot of season 1 of DS9 really isn't very good. Everything feels so low stakes, you barely leave the station, the threats are often low key for an outpost the pilot made out to be a major and important place thanks to the wormhole (will this Bajoran farmer have to leave his nice house?!) and the guest cast tend to be generic American TV actors with few stand outs.

They clearly just blew too much money on the pilot and are having to recoup costs, but the almost contemporary first season of B5 is low budget and similarly contained to the one location and has far more of a sense of scope and importance to it just through the writing.

I mean, despite being a comedy, The Nagus is the first episode after the pilot to have any weight to it because it's about galactic politics, has a decent sized guest cast and a proper character actor in a major role in Wallace Shaw.

Thankfully the last two episodes really turn it round. Duet especially shows how much of the rest of the season is lacking by being just two people talking in a room and thus as cheap as can be, but it absolutely bursts with energy and passion. And the season finale has a similar energy and also some money.

Season 2 starts off much better, even if the siege part of The Siege is rather drawn out (and can Odo make working electronics or does his communicator just sort of float about inside of him when he turns into something else?).

It's also kind of fun the second year is bookended by Skeletor actors.

Tetsuro
2016-11-17, 12:48 PM
Just watching Dark Frontier. There's the scene where Annika is playing with a Borg Cube and her dad shows up and tells her to put it down, saying "it's not a toy"...

...except that it is a toy - specifically, the Playmates toy, used as a prop in the episode.

inflatable dalek
2016-11-23, 08:17 AM
Michelle Yeoh from offa Tomorrow Never Dies (and lots of other films if you're not a philistine) first confirmed casting for Discovery.

It is no coincidence this is the first news about the show that remotely interests me. Hopefully she'll be the captain.

Heinrad
2016-11-24, 03:39 PM
Cool. I might have to start paying CBS to watch this.

inflatable dalek
2016-12-02, 03:07 PM
I'm mid season 3 of DS9 now and if I had a drink every time Sisko took the Defiant--Bajor's one and only defence--on a jolly I'd be blind pissed by now. Especially if I drunk a double every time he took the entire cast with him (for bonus points if non-Star Fleet people like Kira and Odo act like they have jobs on the ship).

Tetsuro
2016-12-12, 08:52 AM
Well I just finished DS9 myself and a friend of mine keeps bitching about the fireballs but personally I think all that stuff you can just easily fanwank away - which is probably another bad sign.

What I do have a problem with is characters being written badly, like the blatant character assassination of Winn and Dukat - apparently the writers felt that in spite of their best efforts, Dukat was still too popular with the audiences so they had him literally come out and say that all the niceties he's said about the Bajorans in the past were lies. Because yes, apparently having three dimensional characters is bad. Same goes for Winn - in the extras her actor speaks about how Winn only paid her faith lip service and was all about having power and keeping it, but that doesn't explain why she got so mad about the prophets never speaking to her.

And in spite of all that, it's still a stronger series finale than what Voyager got.

Heinrad
2017-01-02, 05:44 AM
So I'm a little over halfway into season 4 of Voyager, and I have to say, I'm liking it more than I remember.

inflatable dalek
2017-01-12, 08:15 AM
Does Warcry still even like Star Trek is my question.

Into season 5 of DS9 now, which along with six probably makes for the best run of episodes in the series. Hugely helped by the fact that for the first time in two years it doesn't open with a major relaunch that basically resets the show into a new first season that has to find its feet.

Worf has settled in as well, for most of the first year they clearly have no idea what to do with this character fostered upon them, and it's fun spotting all the time he does less strategic operating and more escorting people to airlocks or answering the space phone. The silliness of him getting the Defiant into a fight with the Excelsior class ship in Paradise Lost (despite being on an urgent mission and on a ship that can turn invisible he just flies right up to the ship commanded by Leah Brahms just so they have to fight) makes sense if you assume he's bored out of his mind.

Oddly even though people usually say Worf works better on DS9 than TNG, he's undergone quite a severe personality change. The guy who was always a bit serious but could still play poker and had a dry sense of humour has now got a massive rod up his arse and is a very dull, very serious grumpy old man. Who enjoys beating the crap out of his woman during sex (and yes, different species. And Dax is up for it and gives as good as she gets. And I suppose in a future where even the most serious injuries can be healed instantly BDSM could go to all sorts of places. But can you imagine him breaking Troi's ribs during sex when they were together? Or her doing the same to him?).

It doesn't help he flat out says at one point he's never been with a Klingon woman, which seems a bit unfair on the only convincing relationship he's had up till this point. Boy must be keep to repress his son.

All of which reaches his nadir in Let He Who Is Without Sin, which not only manages the feet of being sexist without being sexy but struggles to try and put Worf back towards how he was in TNG but makes him seem more of a dick in the process.

More cheerfully, Trials and Tirbbleations is possibly one of the greatest episodes of TV ever made. Still the slipping of them into the old footage looks flawless 21 years later, every joke is brilliant and it's just warm and fuzzy and so close to being perfect (only a couple of contrivances to role with, poor security on the Defiant and the Enterprise not noticing a massive explosion) it's insane it didn't win every award going. It's especially baffling it didn't get the effects Emmy.

And when you're watching it in order and it's been 270 odd adventures since you last saw her, having the original Enterprise back packs quite a emotional punch. I wonder what happened to the new model they built for this one?

Cyberstrike nTo
2017-01-12, 03:00 PM
And when you're watching it in order and it's been 270 odd adventures since you last saw her, having the original Enterprise back packs quite a emotional punch. I wonder what happened to the new model they built for this one?

Maybe it was sent to Las Vegas when one of hotels/casinos there was running "The Star Trek Experience".

It might have be donated to the Smithsonian Museum because I recall a model of the original Enterprise was donated to them.

Warcry
2017-01-12, 04:58 PM
Does Warcry still even like Star Trek is my question.
:lol:

Been a while since I watched any, but yes.

Into season 5 of DS9 now, which along with six probably makes for the best run of episodes in the series. Hugely helped by the fact that for the first time in two years it doesn't open with a major relaunch that basically resets the show into a new first season that has to find its feet.
Season 5 of DS9 is probably my favourite season of any Trek show ever. Like you say, the show finally seemed to figure out what it wanted to be and what story it wanted to tell the year before, and once it stopped flailing around the writers and actors were really able to get going. Season six was great too, as was season four (and you mentioned my favourite part of that later) but in the fifth season you could just see all the puzzle pieces falling together and it was amazing.

Worf has settled in as well, for most of the first year they clearly have no idea what to do with this character fostered upon them, and it's fun spotting all the time he does less strategic operating and more escorting people to airlocks or answering the space phone. The silliness of him getting the Defiant into a fight with the Excelsior class ship in Paradise Lost (despite being on an urgent mission and on a ship that can turn invisible he just flies right up to the ship commanded by Leah Brahms just so they have to fight) makes sense if you assume he's bored out of his mind.
Since you brought it up, I'm going to remind everyone yet again about how much I love Homefront and Paradise Lost. Some of the plot beats are a bit silly (like using a bunch of hormonal, unreliable teenage cadets to carry out a terrorist attack against your own government), but I loved getting glimpse of how the regular civilian population views the world vs. how Starfleet (and the audience) does. Sisko's dad was great for that, and brought a much-needed sense of perspective to a series that, in spite of featuring a few civilian main characters, never did the greatest job of showing how it's big, dramatic political events actually impacted the little people they were trying to make life better for.

I also loved Admiral Leyton as a character. So often the high-ranking Starfleet antagonists we get are one-dimensional caricatures of hackneyed villainy, but here we got someone with some depth. Leyton was actually 100% right about basically everything he was worrying about, but still managed to be so, so very wrong and I love the character a bit more every time I watch. Movie Ratchet's acting helped a lot to make it feel like more than just another Insane Admiral of the Week, too.

Oddly even though people usually say Worf works better on DS9 than TNG, he's undergone quite a severe personality change. The guy who was always a bit serious but could still play poker and had a dry sense of humour has now got a massive rod up his arse and is a very dull, very serious grumpy old man. Who enjoys beating the crap out of his woman during sex (and yes, different species. And Dax is up for it and gives as good as she gets. And I suppose in a future where even the most serious injuries can be healed instantly BDSM could go to all sorts of places. But can you imagine him breaking Troi's ribs during sex when they were together? Or her doing the same to him?).
In season four especially, it really seems like Worf isn't even supposed to be there for most of the episodes. He has some that focus on him, sure, but a lot of the time it felt like they were just paring off an action or two from a couple different characters every episode and giving them to him so that Michael Dorn wasn't putting on the makeup just to be a background extra.

And the "Strategic Operations Officer" thing really has to be the most meaningless job title in all of Star Trek. Considering what he actually did on the show I'm not sure why they didn't just call him the commander of the Defiant. If nothing else it would have felt like career advancement for him.

I didn't actually mind the personality change all that much. The man just watched the only home he'd ever had as an adult get blown to bits in an attack that he (as security chief and tactical officer) must have felt personally responsible for not stopping. Then on top of that, the son he finally came to feel comfortable being loving towards has gone back to live with his grandparents, the Klingons banished him again and he's stuck on a space station with people that (O'Brien aside, sometimes) he doesn't seem to particularly like. And then all that shit with Kurn. His life had completely fallen apart. He loosens up a bit once Martok and Jadzia become his new family, but it took a couple years for him to become comfortable with his new life (or for the writers to become comfortable with him as something other than the stock grumpy Klingon who'd been forced on them as a ratings stunt, if you rather).

It doesn't help he flat out says at one point he's never been with a Klingon woman, which seems a bit unfair on the only convincing relationship he's had up till this point. Boy must be keep to repress his son.
As far as the violent sex goes, it was actually a running joke across most of TNG that Worf considered human women "too fragile" to copulate with, and that Klingon mating rituals were ridiculous things that involved the woman screaming and throwing things while the man read love poetry before slamming into each other so hard that it broke bones. I'm not surprised that DS9 picked up on that.

But of course, as with all of Worf's overcompensating hyper-Klingonness, it's kind of up in the air how much of that is actual Klingon behaviour and how much is Worf living out the "perfect Klingon" stereotypes he's got stuck in his head. I always assumed that Dax knew better but went along with it anyway because (on account of inheriting the memories and proclivities of seven or eight different people) she was always on the lookout for anything different from the norm.

All of which reaches his nadir in Let He Who Is Without Sin, which not only manages the feet of being sexist without being sexy but struggles to try and put Worf back towards how he was in TNG but makes him seem more of a dick in the process.
I choose to forget this episode exists.

More cheerfully, Trials and Tirbbleations is possibly one of the greatest episodes of TV ever made. Still the slipping of them into the old footage looks flawless 21 years later, every joke is brilliant and it's just warm and fuzzy and so close to being perfect (only a couple of contrivances to role with, poor security on the Defiant and the Enterprise not noticing a massive explosion) it's insane it didn't win every award going. It's especially baffling it didn't get the effects Emmy.
I refuse to believe that. 21 years? Shit, we're old. :(

But you're right, this episode really was a special effects masterpiece and if it didn't win any awards that's a travesty. Though maybe not a huge surprise...special effects awards usually go to the biggest explosions, not the best work, and while this episode was amazingly well-done it really wasn't all that flashy.

What I do have a problem with is characters being written badly, like the blatant character assassination of Winn and Dukat
It got really bad for those two in the end. :(

For the most part I don't mind Winn turning into an outright villain. She'd always been a self-serving **** whose faith never went more than skin-deep. I actually don't have a problem with her deciding to side with Space Lucifers. But choosing to work with Dukat, and having a complete lack of awareness of how much he's manipulating her? That's something that doesn't sound like Winn at all.

I don't think I've ever seen writers work so hard to assassinate a character that they created as the DS9 staff did with Dukat, though. I don't think there was a single solitary frame of footage that he was in after the Feds took back DS9 that wasn't intensely cringeworthy. Them trying so hard to make us hate him was easily the worst part of the last two seasons, and the fact that it lasted so long makes it way worse than what they did to Winn in the last handful of episodes.

At least Weyoun and Female Shapeshifter got a good ending to their stories.

Cyberstrike nTo
2017-01-12, 08:43 PM
OK I finally watched Star Trek: Beyond and here is what I thought:

The good:
Justin Lin's a better action director than Abrams.
The script was a million times better than the crap that the least talented pair of writers in Hollywood K/O could do.
The return of the soul of the Star Trek franchise.
The Yorktown space station was simply one of the most awesome things I've seen in ANY sci-fi film in a long time and I want to see more of it. Better yet set the next movie there.
Zachary Quinto, Karl Urban, Zoe Saldana, John Cho, and Simon Pegg were all awesome.
The new alien girl was fun.
It was nice to see a more ensemble film than Kirk dealing with his daddy issues film.
The way the Enterprise was destroyed was cool.
The gravity defying climax was a cool idea.
Idris Elba.
The songs used were fun and energized the movie in a way that the original score didn't.

The bad:
Chris Pine is still one of the most boring and awful actors in Hollywood he's right next the equally boring and awful Henry Cavil.
The destruction of the Enterprise wasn't particularly emotionally moving like it was in Star Trek 3 or even in Star Trek: Generations it was more been there seen that already.
The gravity defying climax was hard to follow.
The original score was dull and didn't work for me. When cheesy 90s pop songs are more lively and works better maybe you need a new music composer.
The deaths of Lenard Nimoy and Anton Yelchin sucked a little bit of the energy and fun out of it.

Overall: I liked it as a sci-fi action film, but as a Star Trek film I would say it's about 6 or 7th best. It's certainly the best out of the new timeline. Also since I think that everything I've seen Chris Pine in he's awful, boring, or both and he is the supposed lead in this film he gets 3rd billing after John Cho and Simon Pegg was a treat for me. Because Cho and Pegg along with Quinto and Urban pretty steal the show. So maybe there is hope for this film series yet. I give it a 3 out of 5.

Tetsuro
2017-01-15, 07:41 AM
Finished the sixth season of Voyager. Good news is that there were quite a few more episodes that I actually liked than I expected, like . Bad news is, there were also quite a few that I didn't, and Borg Queen really is every bit as stupid a character as I thought she was.

Why did Unimatrix Zero need to be destroyed and how did the Queen even find out it existed, since it obviously had absolutely no bearing to the drones outside their regeneration cycle? The collective probably would've continued functioning just fine either way. It pretty much flies right in the face of the whole "Borg ignore you until you become a threat and/or a potential subject of assimilation" thing, so the only reason the Queen wanted to wipe it out is because...she's just that evil. And that's dumb.


It got really bad for those two in the end. :(

For the most part I don't mind Winn turning into an outright villain. She'd always been a self-serving **** whose faith never went more than skin-deep. I actually don't have a problem with her deciding to side with Space Lucifers. But choosing to work with Dukat, and having a complete lack of awareness of how much he's manipulating her? That's something that doesn't sound like Winn at all.

I don't think I've ever seen writers work so hard to assassinate a character that they created as the DS9 staff did with Dukat, though. I don't think there was a single solitary frame of footage that he was in after the Feds took back DS9 that wasn't intensely cringeworthy. Them trying so hard to make us hate him was easily the worst part of the last two seasons, and the fact that it lasted so long makes it way worse than what they did to Winn in the last handful of episodes.

At least Weyoun and Female Shapeshifter got a good ending to their stories.
The problem I had with Winn's change of heart is that much like Dukat, there was at least some doubt over whether everyone's prejudice towards her was justified or not; that is, whether she actually believed what she preached. Of course, she wasn't actually in charge of a brutal occupation that murdered millions helped win some points in her favour, but it did seem to me that her decision to serve the space demons came a little too easy. When Kira told her she should step down and when she found she'd inadvertedly been serving the Pah-Wraiths, there was no dilmmea for her over what she thought was more important, her power or her faith. She was clearly upset when she learned the truth so she probably didn't just have faith as a window dressing.

I guess there's a lesson to be learned here; never write your characters with specific expectations over how the audience should and should not feel about them.

Heinrad
2017-01-15, 01:40 PM
Most of the way through season 5 of Voyager, and I think my favorite episode is either Course: Oblivion, Brides of Chaotica, or Thirty Days, and all for different reasons.

Although I'm still wondering why they felt the need to set this in the Delta Quadrant.

Heinrad
2017-01-17, 10:42 AM
And I just watched the episode Relativity. In it's own way, it makes sense. However, as we know it's the future Braxton's actions that cause the current Braxton to become him, then the logical way to stop that from happening would be to not punish the current Braxton for his future actions.

Starfleet getting time travel as a standard was a really bad idea.

Tetsuro
2017-01-18, 09:03 AM
I didn't particularly like Course: Oblivion, but that was mostly because of my distaste for Shoot the Shaggy Dog type of stories.

If they'd at last had the courtesy of succesfully launching the capsule it might've felt worthwhile, but such as it is, the whole story was just a waste of time.

Cyberstrike nTo
2017-01-18, 02:57 PM
Many pages back I posted my all time favorite episodes of each Star Trek series, I've been meaning to do a worst episode list for quite sometime. The only problem is that outside of a select few episodes that I don't care for mostly because I find them boring, but really most of the "awful" episodes I tend to just find forgettable, (which is to be expected considering the sheer number episodes), what is more even those few that I personally find really awful like "Spock's Brain" have it's a "so bad, it's actually kind of good" type of vibe to it, it's kind of hard to hate it that much.

inflatable dalek
2017-01-20, 03:33 PM
:lol:

Been a while since I watched any, but yes.

You and your having a life.


Season 5 of DS9 is probably my favourite season of any Trek show ever. Like you say, the show finally seemed to figure out what it wanted to be and what story it wanted to tell the year before, and once it stopped flailing around the writers and actors were really able to get going. Season six was great too, as was season four (and you mentioned my favourite part of that later) but in the fifth season you could just see all the puzzle pieces falling together and it was amazing.

Especially impressive considering how they still seem to have been making it up as they go along.


Since you brought it up, I'm going to remind everyone yet again about how much I love Homefront and Paradise Lost. Some of the plot beats are a bit silly (like using a bunch of hormonal, unreliable teenage cadets to carry out a terrorist attack against your own government), but I loved getting glimpse of how the regular civilian population views the world vs. how Starfleet (and the audience) does. Sisko's dad was great for that, and brought a much-needed sense of perspective to a series that, in spite of featuring a few civilian main characters, never did the greatest job of showing how it's big, dramatic political events actually impacted the little people they were trying to make life better for.

Yeah, it's a good one. The only real problem is Star Fleet trying to take over the Federation should have had massive, massive consequences but it's never mentioned again (at least after the attempted coup in Star Trek VI there's an 80 year gap to have shit sorted out in).

I also loved Admiral Leyton as a character. So often the high-ranking Starfleet antagonists we get are one-dimensional caricatures of hackneyed villainy, but here we got someone with some depth. Leyton was actually 100% right about basically everything he was worrying about, but still managed to be so, so very wrong and I love the character a bit more every time I watch. Movie Ratchet's acting helped a lot to make it feel like more than just another Insane Admiral of the Week, too.

It helps it's exactly the same character he played on Babylon 5 (who famously was killed offscreen and replaced by God from Quantum Leap after deciding to do DS9 rather than the "Breakaway from Earth" story on the that show), he'd had some good practice. Though it says a lot that there he's the hero whilst here he's the villain.


And the "Strategic Operations Officer" thing really has to be the most meaningless job title in all of Star Trek. Considering what he actually did on the show I'm not sure why they didn't just call him the commander of the Defiant. If nothing else it would have felt like career advancement for him.

I think they had a problem in that it made no sense for Kira to have a position of authority on the Defiant as it's a pure Star Fleet ship, but they'd already established it and taking that away and giving it to Worf would be taking away a role from one of the established characters (which of course, from a protecting egos point of view, they must have wanted to be seen to avoid doing when they put Worf in). Season 4 is all over the place on who takes charge on the ship when Sisko isn't there before finally coming down on Worf's side at the start of season 5 (and I think later on Dax is firmly next in line).


I choose to forget this episode exists.

Though it's actually done wonders for him, since then he's been Proper Worf again, much more fun and with a real return to the deadpan "Nice planet" humour. "There is an old Klingon saying, you cannot loosen a man's tongue with root beer".


I refuse to believe that. 21 years? Shit, we're old. :(

STAR TREK VI IS THE HALFWAY POINT OF THE FRANCHISE.

Well, just past halfway now.

Slightly further now.

For The Uniform is an underrated gem, even if Sisko's actions at the end are really worse than any of the stuff that causes him trouble in The Pale Moonlight. great performances (Brooks pissed is just scary) and a good tense well thought out plot make for a winner.

Shame they couldn't let the Les Mis influence be understated. Remember when we just had a casual close up of Khan's books? Not "Hey captain, have you ever read my favourite novel?". They "Captain Ahab's gotta go hunt his whale" stuff in First Contact is a bit heavy, but looks mild compared to Sisko actually getting a copy of Les Mis out and explaining the plot to the audience.



For the most part I don't mind Winn turning into an outright villain. She'd always been a self-serving **** whose faith never went more than skin-deep. I actually don't have a problem with her deciding to side with Space Lucifers. But choosing to work with Dukat, and having a complete lack of awareness of how much he's manipulating her? That's something that doesn't sound like Winn at all.

She's fully aware he's trying to use her though, she just thinks she's using him more effectively (she does turn on him first), but is very wrong.

I don't think I've ever seen writers work so hard to assassinate a character that they created as the DS9 staff did with Dukat, though. I don't think there was a single solitary frame of footage that he was in after the Feds took back DS9 that wasn't intensely cringeworthy. Them trying so hard to make us hate him was easily the worst part of the last two seasons, and the fact that it lasted so long makes it way worse than what they did to Winn in the last handful of episodes.

I think Dukat going completely off the deep end makes sense, he had not only lost everything again, the daughter he'd finally accepted was murdered right in front of him. Whilst it's understandable none of the other characters have much sympathy for him I think it's a logical progression he'd wind up far more unhinged than ever before.

Mind, one of the problems with the last episode is that of all the villains he winds up burning in hell forever when he's arguably not been responsible for his own actions for two years.

Warcry
2017-01-20, 10:22 PM
Many pages back I posted my all time favorite episodes of each Star Trek series, I've been meaning to do a worst episode list for quite sometime. The only problem is that outside of a select few episodes that I don't care for mostly because I find them boring, but really most of the "awful" episodes I tend to just find forgettable, (which is to be expected considering the sheer number episodes), what is more even those few that I personally find really awful like "Spock's Brain" have it's a "so bad, it's actually kind of good" type of vibe to it, it's kind of hard to hate it that much.
I think that's a good point. There's so much Trek out there now that the bad (or even middling) episodes just sort of fade into the background for me. Hilariously terri-bad stuff, I'll remember, and the bad movies are more memorable just for being movies, but the random terrible episodes of TNG or whatever don't come to mind at all unless someone brings them up.

You and your having a life.
It's fun. You should try it some time!

Especially impressive considering how they still seem to have been making it up as they go along.
I don't think they ever really stopped. Even up until the final few episodes they seemed to be doing whatever seemed like a good idea at the time. But the first few seasons drifted around at random, throwing out lots of plot leads (Bajor, the Cardassians, the Prophets, the Dominion) all pulling in different ways, and nothing really progressed except at a snail's pace. And then season four went right off the rails with the Klingon plot, which if memory serves was forced on them by the studio. When season five hit, they finally took all of those different plots and aimed them in the same general direction. The plot still had a lot of obviously made-up-on-the-spot asspulls, but they'd at least started trying to make them cohesive asspulls at that point.

Yeah, it's a good one. The only real problem is Star Fleet trying to take over the Federation should have had massive, massive consequences but it's never mentioned again (at least after the attempted coup in Star Trek VI there's an 80 year gap to have shit sorted out in).
In keeping with the general tone of DS9, I'd always assumed that Jaresh-Inyo just had it covered up -- Leyton and his top allies "retiring" and everyone else being sworn to secrecy. Otherwise you'd have had Klingons and Romulans throwing it in Sisko's face for the entire rest of the series.

It helps it's exactly the same character he played on Babylon 5 (who famously was killed offscreen and replaced by God from Quantum Leap after deciding to do DS9 rather than the "Breakaway from Earth" story on the that show), he'd had some good practice. Though it says a lot that there he's the hero whilst here he's the villain.
The situations were completely different, though -- on B5 his character was organizing resistance against a man who'd killed the legitimate president and made himself dictator, while on DS9 he was trying to do the same thing himself. The only real similarity is that they were trying to stage a military coup.

I always have enjoyed B5 a bit more (as blasphemous as that may be in this thread), but I think the moaning from that crowd over DS9 "stealing" the actor is a bit overblown. The character was almost definitely on his way out anyway, since Sheridan was obviously always going to wind up being the one leading the charge. The only thing that changed was how, and it's not like General Hague was an important main character who deserved to go out in a blaze of glory.

I think they had a problem in that it made no sense for Kira to have a position of authority on the Defiant as it's a pure Star Fleet ship, but they'd already established it and taking that away and giving it to Worf would be taking away a role from one of the established characters (which of course, from a protecting egos point of view, they must have wanted to be seen to avoid doing when they put Worf in). Season 4 is all over the place on who takes charge on the ship when Sisko isn't there before finally coming down on Worf's side at the start of season 5 (and I think later on Dax is firmly next in line).
I don't think Dax really landed in that spot until after Martok joined the cast and Worf became his de facto #2. She never really did much commanding before the last episode of season 5 (that I can remember anyway) and like four episodes later she's captain of the Defiant. With a different character it actually could have made for an interesting arc, having to deal with such a drastic change in role, but Jadzia just jumped in without missing a beat. Which actually makes sense, being that she's a Trill whose past hosts have been in command positions.

Come to think of it, did she do any actual sciencing in the last season? I remember thinking at the time that they should have just put her in a red collar and been done with it, especially after they took Sisko off of Defiant and put her in charge.

STAR TREK VI IS THE HALFWAY POINT OF THE FRANCHISE.
I refuse to process the implications of this.

For The Uniform is an underrated gem, even if Sisko's actions at the end are really worse than any of the stuff that causes him trouble in The Pale Moonlight. great performances (Brooks pissed is just scary) and a good tense well thought out plot make for a winner.
Another of my favourites, though I'm not sure I agree with you about Sisko's actions. He left a bunch of people homeless, but no one actually died. As opposed to bringing an entire nation into a bloody war on false pretenses, directly leading to the deaths of probably millions of Romulans who have no actual reason to be fighting.

Agreed about Angry Sisko, though. Avery Brooks did such a good job bringing depth to the character, and he's equally believable as a loving father figure or kindly friend as he is as a vengeful rage-machine.

Shame they couldn't let the Les Mis influence be understated. Remember when we just had a casual close up of Khan's books? Not "Hey captain, have you ever read my favourite novel?". They "Captain Ahab's gotta go hunt his whale" stuff in First Contact is a bit heavy, but looks mild compared to Sisko actually getting a copy of Les Mis out and explaining the plot to the audience.
I get where you're coming from, but I think this creates a nice bit of ambiguity about Sisko's choices. It's one thing for them to write Eddington and Sisko's actions to mirror the protagonists of the book, but by having Sisko bring up the book it raises the question of whether Sisko is acting the way he is because he has a genuine insight into Eddington's world view? Or is that just a hollow excuse after the fact for doing exactly what he would have done regardless? The episode left me genuinely unsure, and I don't think it would have been able to do that without the direct references to the book.

I think Dukat going completely off the deep end makes sense, he had not only lost everything again, the daughter he'd finally accepted was murdered right in front of him. Whilst it's understandable none of the other characters have much sympathy for him I think it's a logical progression he'd wind up far more unhinged than ever before.
Dukat going nuts makes sense, but he was only actually nuts for about forty minutes of screen time before he came back acting like a super-evil caricature of who he's always been. I don't remember him showing any sign of mental illness after "Waltz", just generic, moustache-twirling evil.

inflatable dalek
2017-01-27, 08:16 PM
It's fun. You should try it some time!

A life where I covertly imply you have a smaller penis than Brend's is as rich as any.


I don't think they ever really stopped. Even up until the final few episodes they seemed to be doing whatever seemed like a good idea at the time. But the first few seasons drifted around at random, throwing out lots of plot leads (Bajor, the Cardassians, the Prophets, the Dominion) all pulling in different ways, and nothing really progressed except at a snail's pace. And then season four went right off the rails with the Klingon plot, which if memory serves was forced on them by the studio. When season five hit, they finally took all of those different plots and aimed them in the same general direction. The plot still had a lot of obviously made-up-on-the-spot asspulls, but they'd at least started trying to make them cohesive asspulls at that point.

I think my favourite ass pull at the moment is how Worf got his honour back in today's episode. "Wait, all I needed to do was get adopted into another family? Wait till I tell Kurn...ohhhh".

Especially daft as he sets up the mind wiped Kurn with an old family friend who presumably could have done exactly the same thing Martok did for both of them.



I always have enjoyed B5 a bit more (as blasphemous as that may be in this thread), but I think the moaning from that crowd over DS9 "stealing" the actor is a bit overblown. The character was almost definitely on his way out anyway, since Sheridan was obviously always going to wind up being the one leading the charge. The only thing that changed was how, and it's not like General Hague was an important main character who deserved to go out in a blaze of glory.

Considering that after they break away from Earth the Clark plot is basically ignored for close to a year I can the original plan would have been Hague being in that two parter, surviving and then going off in his ship to lead the fight against Earth out there whilst Sheridan deals with the Shadows. Then come early season 4 he's killed off...

I suspect that stuff will seem even more relevant in the current climate.


I don't think Dax really landed in that spot until after Martok joined the cast and Worf became his de facto #2. She never really did much commanding before the last episode of season 5 (that I can remember anyway) and like four episodes later she's captain of the Defiant. With a different character it actually could have made for an interesting arc, having to deal with such a drastic change in role, but Jadzia just jumped in without missing a beat. Which actually makes sense, being that she's a Trill whose past hosts have been in command positions.

They've basically completely thrown out her original, reserved and aloof science character by this point. The recurring Dax's lab set got destroyed in season 3 and I think wanting to investigate the planet in Children of Time is her last bit of science. By the end of the season Rom is out teching her!

I really like how her character and the performance has grown though, much more fun.

I'm so glad the minefield is about to go up, removing Sisko constantly whacking the Dominion hive by flying his heavily armed battleship into territory they've emphatically told star fleet to stay out of FOR SCIENCE. It's amusing the war starts because they ignore him going "This side of the wormhole is ours, stay out" in the same way they did to him at the end of season 2. It's telling there wasn't a Dominion War, or indeed any Dominion presence on our side, in the timeline where Sisko died at the start of season 4.

Which makes Jake responsible for millions of deaths (including Dax's) and the loss of Nog's leg in altering history so as to stop his dad becoming an immortal living in a white void three years early.


I refuse to process the implications of this.

It's even further past the halfway mark now!



Agreed about Angry Sisko, though. Avery Brooks did such a good job bringing depth to the character, and he's equally believable as a loving father figure or kindly friend as he is as a vengeful rage-machine.

It verges on Shatner-ish at times (I'm not surprised that he was apparently the only Captain to out-Shatner Shatner in that documentary Bill did) bit it works.

I do wish that when the uniforms changed they'd told Brooks he didn't have to wear the entire Captain's uniform at all times. Picard treated the waistcoat as an alternative to the jacket, Sisko wears both at once and now looks as wide as he is tall.


I get where you're coming from, but I think this creates a nice bit of ambiguity about Sisko's choices. It's one thing for them to write Eddington and Sisko's actions to mirror the protagonists of the book, but by having Sisko bring up the book it raises the question of whether Sisko is acting the way he is because he has a genuine insight into Eddington's world view? Or is that just a hollow excuse after the fact for doing exactly what he would have done regardless? The episode left me genuinely unsure, and I don't think it would have been able to do that without the direct references to the book.

I think the problem is, Eddington is only obsessed with being this Victorian literary hero in just this one episode, which is all the stranger as he won't shut up about it. He doesn't even use the nickname for Sisko in Blaze of Glory!

I really do love the "Cardassia joins the Dominion" two parter. Smart (well, bar the Runabout in orbit... but that's held up as potentially weird later on) tense stuff that completely changes the direction of the show in a logical way.

Though, not to sound uniform obsessed, I kind of wish they hadn't done the cute gag with the real Bashir in his old uniform. Because that firmly pegs when he was replaced and means the Changeling performed major brain surgery on Sisko and was even touching Odo the moment he got his powers back. Both of which should seem more sinister in retrospect but no one cares. Even protective family man O'Brien is happy to make jokes rather than be paranoid about Kira-Yoshi's birth.

Oddly I really like the genetically engineered background to Bashir that comes out of nowhere in the next one (even the episode set entirely in his head where he's tormented by someone who knows all his secret shames doesn't mention it!). Mainly because it's a good fun episode with some emotional heft to it.

Mind, it's a shame the British education system has apparently been replaced by the American by the 24th century. "Grades"? **** off.

Watched the Love of Spock documentary on Netflix today, no mention of his Transformers work at all (as if it was of no consequence to him), but it's a fascinating overview of Nimoy's life that's well worth a watch.

Warcry
2017-01-27, 10:37 PM
A life where I covertly imply you have a smaller penis than Brend's is as rich as any.
You just go on believing that.

I prefer a life where my penis has actually seen use, but to each their own.

I think my favourite ass pull at the moment is how Worf got his honour back in today's episode. "Wait, all I needed to do was get adopted into another family? Wait till I tell Kurn...ohhhh".
That's one of the bigger plot holes in the series, yeah.

Thankfully Kurn was boring so no one (seemingly including Worf) cared. :)

Considering that after they break away from Earth the Clark plot is basically ignored for close to a year I can the original plan would have been Hague being in that two parter, surviving and then going off in his ship to lead the fight against Earth out there whilst Sheridan deals with the Shadows. Then come early season 4 he's killed off...
I don't think they'd had even that much planned out for him. If they'd had long-term plans for the guy to recur in the next season I'm sure Straczynski would have written around a one-episode absence. The fact that they were so willing to axe him off-screen tells me that they were probably planning to get rid of the character at around that time anyway.

I really like how her character and the performance has grown though, much more fun.
Ferrell wasn't much of an actress early on, which didn't help the original version of the character get across. She certainly seemed more comfortable playing Dax as a gung-ho action hero than a coy, aloof nerd, but she'd also become a much better performer by that time.

I'm so glad the minefield is about to go up, removing Sisko constantly whacking the Dominion hive by flying his heavily armed battleship into territory they've emphatically told star fleet to stay out of FOR SCIENCE. It's amusing the war starts because they ignore him going "This side of the wormhole is ours, stay out" in the same way they did to him at the end of season 2. It's telling there wasn't a Dominion War, or indeed any Dominion presence on our side, in the timeline where Sisko died at the start of season 4.
Although the show didn't do the best job of making this clear all the time, the Gamma end of the wormhole does not open directly into Dominion territory. Idran was a long way from their borders. They really have no more right to tell the Federation to stay out of the Gamma Quadrant than the Tzenkethi or Shelliac would have to tell visitors from the other side that they're not allowed to go to DS9.

Now practically speaking, poking the bear was a terrible idea. But for all the polite window dressing the Federation is an aggressively expansionist power. They didn't knuckle under in the face of Romulan territorial ambitions in the 22nd century or Klingon ones in the 23rd, and they're certainly not about to cow to some random power half-way across the galaxy in the 24th. That's just not how they do business.

The real foolhardy choice, then, wasn't ignoring the Dominion warnings. It was doing seemingly nothing to prepare for the inevitable war until after the Cardassians joined up with the enemy. The Federation should have embarked on an aggressive shipbuilding program (not to mention expanded their manpower) the moment they realized they were headed towards conflict, but instead they instigated a war against a technologically superior foe while their fleets were mostly made up of century-old Miranda and Excelsior-class rustbuckets. They should have been pumping out Defiant and Intrepid-class ships like they were going out of style for two years before the shooting started, given that the bigger ships like the Sovereign-class would probably take too long to get them in service before the war started. Basically all of the older ships were nothing but cannon fodder, save for the Galaxy-class and maybe the Nebulas.

Not to mention the utter failure to do anything to secure the Bajoran system when you 100% know that it's the only way for that enemy to get to you.

No wonder Leyton wanted to overthrown Jaresh-Inyo!

Though, not to sound uniform obsessed, I kind of wish they hadn't done the cute gag with the real Bashir in his old uniform. Because that firmly pegs when he was replaced and means the Changeling performed major brain surgery on Sisko and was even touching Odo the moment he got his powers back. Both of which should seem more sinister in retrospect but no one cares. Even protective family man O'Brien is happy to make jokes rather than be paranoid about Kira-Yoshi's birth.
I'm surprised that it was never bought up, but I guess the writers didn't put all that much thought into it considering they didn't even tell the actor before episode started filming that he'd been playing a fake for three months.

Oddly I really like the genetically engineered background to Bashir that comes out of nowhere in the next one (even the episode set entirely in his head where he's tormented by someone who knows all his secret shames doesn't mention it!). Mainly because it's a good fun episode with some emotional heft to it.
I'm taken out of it a bit by how Bashir's parents don't even vaguely look like they could be related to him, what with all three of the actors having clearly different ethnic backgrounds, but as far as nonsensical asspulls go it's not that bad. At least it gave the character a direction, something he was sorely lacking after he outgrew the early "immature manchild" phase.

Heinrad
2017-01-29, 07:10 PM
So I'm now at the Voyager episode "Child's Play", where the first of the 'Borg Children'(I kind of see where they were going with the idea, but still....), and we hit upon the real problem with the idea of doing this. I'cheb, and all the rest of the children, still have Borg implants to keep them alive. Dropping one of them off on a planet that's been more or less blasted back to the Stone Age, no matter how ingenious they've been, is not the greatest idea.

Never mind that the kid's father is Crowley, King of Hell.

From my point of view, it's not the emotional bonds, it's the sheer fact that his implants will probably be a beacon to any Borg cubes that go by the place.

And of course, Seven was right in her suspicions.

inflatable dalek
2017-02-17, 02:42 PM
I don't think they'd had even that much planned out for him. If they'd had long-term plans for the guy to recur in the next season I'm sure Straczynski would have written around a one-episode absence. The fact that they were so willing to axe him off-screen tells me that they were probably planning to get rid of the character at around that time anyway.

Considering JMS could be just as bad as any fan when it came to fuelling the rivalry between the two shows, dropping a bridge on Foxworth for doing the other show over his for even one week only wouldn't surprise me.

Mind, I'm really into the period where the "We don't watch Babylon 5 at all" protests start sounding really weak. Especially as they've using B5's unfairly sacked effects team for the big battles now, what did they use for their show reel?


Ferrell wasn't much of an actress early on, which didn't help the original version of the character get across. She certainly seemed more comfortable playing Dax as a gung-ho action hero than a coy, aloof nerd, but she'd also become a much better performer by that time.

That two volume oral history of Trek thing that came out last year apparently has some disparaging quotes from Berman about her, something along the lines of "You can't get beautiful women who are also good actors" (!).


Although the show didn't do the best job of making this clear all the time, the Gamma end of the wormhole does not open directly into Dominion territory. Idran was a long way from their borders. They really have no more right to tell the Federation to stay out of the Gamma Quadrant than the Tzenkethi or Shelliac would have to tell visitors from the other side that they're not allowed to go to DS9.

At the point at the end of season 2 they don't know that much about the Dominion, Dax being so foolhardy as to go "You can't tell us shit!" to a Galaxy Class destroying power that might actually have a claim on the other end is ridiculous.

Arena is a good counterpart, the Gorn do terrible things to that Federation colony. But at the end Kirk accepts they need to at least talk and the Gorn might have had a prior claim on the planet and mistook the Feds for invaders. If Sisko had been in that episode, he'd have been bashing the Gorn's brain in with the rock shouting "WHO'S YOUR DADDY!".

Plus, our end of the wormhole isn't in Federation space either. It's in Bajoran. And at the end of season 5 Bajor and the Dominion are in the process of negotiating (and ultiamtely sign) a non-aggression pact on Sisko's advice.


The real foolhardy choice, then, wasn't ignoring the Dominion warnings. It was doing seemingly nothing to prepare for the inevitable war until after the Cardassians joined up with the enemy. The Federation should have embarked on an aggressive shipbuilding program (not to mention expanded their manpower) the moment they realized they were headed towards conflict, but instead they instigated a war against a technologically superior foe while their fleets were mostly made up of century-old Miranda and Excelsior-class rustbuckets. They should have been pumping out Defiant and Intrepid-class ships like they were going out of style for two years before the shooting started, given that the bigger ships like the Sovereign-class would probably take too long to get them in service before the war started. Basically all of the older ships were nothing but cannon fodder, save for the Galaxy-class and maybe the Nebulas.

I mostly agree, but Excelsior's can still hold their own, the one in Paradise Lost only loses against the Defiant because O'Brien's pumped it up a bit without them knowing. I'd take one of those bad boys over a "Whoops, there goes another one!" Galaxy Class any day of the week.

Oddly Sovereign's don't seem to be held in high regard by Star Fleet, the Enterprise can't be the only one in service (and based on how bored Picard is in Insurrection she doesn't seem to have been doing any war stuff anyway) but they never show up for the battles.

(I know, I know. They wanted the franchises main hero ship to be special)

Mind, sending Intrepid classes into battle would be a bit mental. They're small science ships, it's not like one could single handedly destroy the entire Borg collective.


I'm taken out of it a bit by how Bashir's parents don't even vaguely look like they could be related to him, what with all three of the actors having clearly different ethnic backgrounds, but as far as nonsensical asspulls go it's not that bad. At least it gave the character a direction, something he was sorely lacking after he outgrew the early "immature manchild" phase.

Their look never bothered me (if Siddig can have Malcom McDowell in his real family tree, Bashir can have anything), I just like the fact they feel like a convincingly British family (well, apart from the mention of American style school "Grades"). The Del Boy style dad is especially well done.

God, Far Beyond the Stars is good isn't it? The handwave to basically not do an episode of Star Trek that week is flimsy at best, but the end result is fantastic.

Didn't realise the "We won't publish unless you make the lead white" thing was direcly based on something that happened in real life as well.

Considering Sisko's already established interest in African-American history and his love of classic baseball (plus of course, he works in space so he's probably read some old SF at some point for fun), him having a good working knowledge of the 50's and the struggles people like him would have gone through feels very right as well well even though there's been no real hint prior that this would be enough of a thing for him that the Prophets would pick that to send him into a dream over.

(Hmm, actually this comes just after it turns out Dukat is having visions as well, I wonder if the Greek Chorus in Waltz was EVIL Prophet sent rather than being down to his madness?)

I suppose no one on the production team knowing how to deal with Bashir's ethnicity and so them just writing his counterpart as white is a bit of a problem as well.

And I know everyone at the time was like "You could have set this today with no changes", but it really is striking how nearly 20 years later a piece of TV set in the 50's still feels so resonant. The casual acceptance of racism from people who aren't strictly racist but see it as status quo ("It's not about what's right, it's about what is!" being the key line) and the American police not needing an excuse to mistreat black guys especially.

Just finished Change of Heart (a title that kind of gives away the fact Worf will have a Change of Heart at the end). Terry Farrell was right, if they were going to kill Dax because being in the middle of a terrible war was a good time to off a regular it should have been in this episode. Even beyond it being a surprise to do it in the middle of a season, even beyond it having a direct impact on Worf, even beyond her eventual cause of death not really being dealt with (everyone hates Dukat anyway and he and Worf never meet in the last season, so what's the point? I think it comes up once after Ezri is settled in)...it actually would have been a death related to the war, which being zapped by a man possessed by the devil wasn't.

Warcry
2017-02-17, 05:42 PM
Mind, I'm really into the period where the "We don't watch Babylon 5 at all" protests start sounding really weak. Especially as they've using B5's unfairly sacked effects team for the big battles now, what did they use for their show reel?
I had no idea that happened. Yeah, it's pretty hard to deny if they poached staff from the other show.

That two volume oral history of Trek thing that came out last year apparently has some disparaging quotes from Berman about her, something along the lines of "You can't get beautiful women who are also good actors" (!).
Well, he's not entirely wrong even if he's being a jerk about it. I'm sure there are a lot of actresses who are both talented and beautiful, but the talent isn't mandatory and it's certainly not what gets their foot in the door in Hollywood. There's a lot of stunningly beautiful "actresses" out there who can't act their way out of a paper bag but go on to long careers anyway, because acting talent isn't what they're hired for.

Arena is a good counterpart, the Gorn do terrible things to that Federation colony. But at the end Kirk accepts they need to at least talk and the Gorn might have had a prior claim on the planet and mistook the Feds for invaders. If Sisko had been in that episode, he'd have been bashing the Gorn's brain in with the rock shouting "WHO'S YOUR DADDY!".
:lol:

That depends. If we're talking about early-run, hair-and-no-beard Sisko he'd probably have done the same as Kirk. He didn't become completely obstinate until about half-way through the series.

I blame the promotion to captain. Obviously it went to his head.

I mostly agree, but Excelsior's can still hold their own, the one in Paradise Lost only loses against the Defiant because O'Brien's pumped it up a bit without them knowing. I'd take one of those bad boys over a "Whoops, there goes another one!" Galaxy Class any day of the week.
Worf was trying really hard not to kill anyone when he was fighting the Lakota, though. A few quantum torpedoes to the drive section would have settled things pretty quickly.

And honestly, as much as we laugh at the Galaxy-class for blowing up so often, in the Dominion War battle scenes the Galaxies we saw were basically invincible, while Excelsior- and Miranda-class ships were getting cut in half by a single blow from the bigger Dominion ships. And heck, a handful of Maquis Raiders were able to cripple the Malinche.

The funniest thing about the Galaxies is that the generic background fodder were super tough but any ship that was actually important to the plot was almost certain to eventually die. Somewhere, the crews of Venture, Challenger and Galaxy are praying that they never get a guest star role in anything.

Oddly Sovereign's don't seem to be held in high regard by Star Fleet, the Enterprise can't be the only one in service (and based on how bored Picard is in Insurrection she doesn't seem to have been doing any war stuff anyway) but they never show up for the battles.
I think the most reasonable in-universe explanation is that it's just too new of a design to have gotten too many of them built. It took seven years after the Galaxy was launched before they'd finished constructing Enterprise and Yamato, and almost a decade after that before the Galaxy-class became a regular sight in Starfleet. The Sovereign class isn't quite as big volume-wise, but it's still damned huge and I'm sure it took ages to build one. And since the Enterprise-E was apparently one of the first of her kind too, there were probably less than ten of the things in service across the whole Federation during the Dominion War.

Of course, that doesn't explain why they'd waste one of them on random diplomatic junkets in the middle of the conflict, so I'll just assume that Picard had pissed off an admiral or two that month.

Mind, sending Intrepid classes into battle would be a bit mental. They're small science ships, it's not like one could single handedly destroy the entire Borg collective.
They're really not, though. They're built for science and exploration, yes, but we're not talking about an equivalent to the Oberth- or Nova-class here. Voyager was bigger than a Constitution-class starship and had as many weapons as a Galaxy-class. It probably doesn't have the same endurance as the bigger ships but it's no pushover either.

Didn't realise the "We won't publish unless you make the lead white" thing was direcly based on something that happened in real life as well.
To one of the authors of the episode, you mean? Or just in general? Because I'm sure stuff like that has happened way more than just once.

I suppose no one on the production team knowing how to deal with Bashir's ethnicity and so them just writing his counterpart as white is a bit of a problem as well.
Actually, a light-skinned Middle-Eastern man being treated as white is not at all out of character for that period. I don't know if it was different in Europe, but on this side of the ocean most people really had no idea about anyone from that part of the world. As long as they didn't dress like Yasser Arafat, have an obviously foreign name or really dark skin, no one would have noticed or cared. In Siddig's case, the English accent and relatively fair skin would have meant that most folks would have just assumed he was a Brit with a tan, especially with a name like "Julius Eaton".

Of course, all of that changed rather quickly after 9/11...

And I know everyone at the time was like "You could have set this today with no changes", but it really is striking how nearly 20 years later a piece of TV set in the 50's still feels so resonant. The casual acceptance of racism from people who aren't strictly racist but see it as status quo ("It's not about what's right, it's about what is!" being the key line) and the American police not needing an excuse to mistreat black guys especially.
I don't think you could strictly set the episode now, but I agree with the spirit of what you're saying. The entertainment industry at least tries to have minority representation nowadays, which hurts the main plot of the story...but the basic point of it all is just as true now as it was then.

If anything, the general public's opinion of black people has gotten worse since then. Back then the stereotypical image of a black man was as something subservient and inferior -- nowadays it's a heavily-armed ghetto thug. They've gone from being seen as "lesser" to actively dangerous. I don't consider that an improvement.

Just finished Change of Heart (a title that kind of gives away the fact Worf will have a Change of Heart at the end). Terry Farrell was right, if they were going to kill Dax because being in the middle of a terrible war was a good time to off a regular it should have been in this episode. Even beyond it being a surprise to do it in the middle of a season, even beyond it having a direct impact on Worf, even beyond her eventual cause of death not really being dealt with (everyone hates Dukat anyway and he and Worf never meet in the last season, so what's the point? I think it comes up once after Ezri is settled in)...it actually would have been a death related to the war, which being zapped by a man possessed by the devil wasn't.
I'd never considered this before but you're totally right. This is totally where Jadzia should have died. It's not like she did all that much in the back half of the season anyway.

Cyberstrike nTo
2017-02-17, 11:35 PM
Considering JMS could be just as bad as any fan when it came to fuelling the rivalry between the two shows, dropping a bridge on Foxworth for doing the other show over his for even one week only wouldn't surprise me.

Mind, I'm really into the period where the "We don't watch Babylon 5 at all" protests start sounding really weak. Especially as they've using B5's unfairly sacked effects team for the big battles now, what did they use for their show reel?

To be fair the CGI effects for DS9 (and Voyager as well) still hold up the CGI effects for B5 look dated and most in seasons 1-4 are just bloody awful. Also the episode of Voyager called "The Void" is filled with B5 in-jokes including the casting of the late Robin Sachs (who also did the voice of Zaheed in Mass Effect 2 and Mass Effect 3) and it was directed by Mike Vejay (I think that is his name) who JMS said on a commentary track was one of his favorite directors.

I think in the end that the so-called "rivalry" between Star Trek: Deep Space Nine and Babylon 5 both made each other better by forcing the writers to push the boundaries and try new things and too one-up each other. JMS put a subtle lesbian romance but never showed the women kiss, the writers on DS9 said "You want to go there we'll have Terry Farrell kiss a girl!" And then in the season 7 Mirror Universe they had Kira and Erzi Dax kiss!

I still think DS9 is better because of the episode "The Visitor" which for my money is the greatest 45 minutes of TV ever made for any show in any genre in any year.

inflatable dalek
2017-02-18, 01:54 PM
I had no idea that happened. Yeah, it's pretty hard to deny if they poached staff from the other show.

Their first work on the show was the second half of the battle in Sacrifice of Angels. There was a great quote in an SFX interview where they were showing off the CGI shots and were like "Of course, in the final episode they'll ruin it by cutting to the actors". Getting the Trek gig (they went on to do a lot of Voyager) basically saved the company after losing the B5 job.


Well, he's not entirely wrong even if he's being a jerk about it. I'm sure there are a lot of actresses who are both talented and beautiful, but the talent isn't mandatory and it's certainly not what gets their foot in the door in Hollywood. There's a lot of stunningly beautiful "actresses" out there who can't act their way out of a paper bag but go on to long careers anyway, because acting talent isn't what they're hired for.

Mind, there's also a lot of very handsome actors on Trek who only got work through their good looks (hello Harry Kim!), so its odd to single out the girls. Unless he was never looking that hard for talent in the first place...



Worf was trying really hard not to kill anyone when he was fighting the Lakota, though. A few quantum torpedoes to the drive section would have settled things pretty quickly.

Worf must be trying to not kill people quite a lot as his success rate there isn't much worse than usual in fights!

And honestly, as much as we laugh at the Galaxy-class for blowing up so often, in the Dominion War battle scenes the Galaxies we saw were basically invincible, while Excelsior- and Miranda-class ships were getting cut in half by a single blow from the bigger Dominion ships. And heck, a handful of Maquis Raiders were able to cripple the Malinche.

Sure, the Galaxy did OK when they got to the battle, but how many crashed into planets, exploded from computer viruses or tripped over their own feet on the carpet to get there?

Those Marquis raiders always seemed a bit too tough for their size anyway, they always seemed to be going toe to toe with much bigger ships far too easily. If the Runabouts had been built that well they wouldn't need the Defiant.


They're really not, though. They're built for science and exploration, yes, but we're not talking about an equivalent to the Oberth- or Nova-class here. Voyager was bigger than a Constitution-class starship and had as many weapons as a Galaxy-class. It probably doesn't have the same endurance as the bigger ships but it's no pushover either.

Wait, it's supposed to be that heavily armed? Jeez, Star Fleet do seem to use "Science" as a euphemism for "Kill everything".

Oddly they do seem to have hugely stepped up ship production before the war anyway. Forty ships is portrayed as a serious loss in the Best of Both Worlds (though Shelby claims they'll have the fleet back up in a year and Redemption is the only story in the meantime where its an issue. They can really knock those bad boys out) but they're losing hundreds at a time during the war.


To one of the authors of the episode, you mean? Or just in general? Because I'm sure stuff like that has happened way more than just once.

Samuel R. Delany, whose novella Nova was initially rejected by the editor the Odo substitute was based on for the not changing the colour of the lead (though he had a happier ending, it simply went to another mag and became a great success). Based on his Wikipedia photo the guy now basically looks like a mad old Sisko.

Everyone in the office bar Dax is a pretty close expy of contemporary writers, O'Brien as Asimov being the most obvious of course.



Oh God, today's episode is "Kira's mother is a skany hoe"...

Tetsuro
2017-02-18, 06:41 PM
Samuel R. Delany, whose novella Nova was initially rejected by the editor the Odo substitute was based on for the not changing the colour of the lead (though he had a happier ending, it simply went to another mag and became a great success). Based on his Wikipedia photo the guy now basically looks like a mad old Sisko.
Ever heard of the EC Comics story "Judgement Day"?

Heinrad
2017-02-19, 01:12 PM
So what, exactly, is the Intrepid-class(that's what Voyager is. I think. Who names a ship class best known for a Constitution class heavy crusier eaten by a giant space amoeba?) supposed to be?

Conceivably, the 'reflex cannon on a rowboat' idea used for Defiant might be where it came from, which takes Starfleet back to the design ethos used on the Constitution-class heavy cruisers. A ship designed mainly to explore, do research, as well as have the firepower it needs to defend itself/the Federation member worlds. A design that Starfleet went away from when they decided to send their crews and the crew's families out on the Galaxy-class.

But if the Intrepid-class is just an exploration vessel, with one third the crew or so of a Constitution-class, sweet Primus, why all the guns?

Captain: "Hi, we're from the United Fed-"

Alien: "We'll join! Just don't shoot us!"

Or, since I've been playing Star Trek Online, the main reason theIntrepid-class might have all the phaser banks(and the ability to make more photon torpedoes, unless I missed something. Voyager went from carefully hoarding them to flinging them with wild abandon) is one of the things mentioned in some of the ship descriptions. Tougher galaxy needs more guns.

Me, I'll stick with my Kelvin Timeline Constitution.

Cyberstrike nTo
2017-03-01, 05:25 PM
I think that's a good point. There's so much Trek out there now that the bad (or even middling) episodes just sort of fade into the background for me. Hilariously terri-bad stuff, I'll remember, and the bad movies are more memorable just for being movies, but the random terrible episodes of TNG or whatever don't come to mind at all unless someone brings them up.

Or some episodes that are just so bat crap insane like the Voyager 2 parter "The Killing Game" you can't tell if they're good or bad. The plot of this 2 parter is: The Hunters have captured the crew and are using mind control to force them to play deadly hologram games with Klingons and Nazis. We get to see Neelix dressed and act as a Klingon, while Janeway, Seven, Tuvok, and Torres as French resistance fighters, and Chakotay and Paris as American GIs. I think is the first time we hear Seven sing (and IMHO she's a damn good singer and so is Robert Picardo) With the Doctor keeping the crew alive and Kim being forced to turn the ship into a giant holodeck and both of them are trying to free the crew. When they do free the crew then it turns in wild gun fight. Then ends with a wild climax with the crew vs. the Hunters vs. the Klingons vs. the Nazis. While Janeway blows up the holodeck and shoots the leader of the Hunter with a holographic version of a real world rifle.

Heinrad
2017-03-02, 03:25 AM
Speaking of Voyager, I watched the seventh season episode "Shattered" last night, and despite the solution being complete Treknobabble(as was the problem), it was a good episode. Except for the rearing of the ugly head of the Temporal Prime Directive.

I understand the concept behind it, but they handle it so badly. Chakotay not wanting to tell Janeway from 7 years earlier what was going to happen makes sense, in a way(but to stop Seska, he threw it out the window), simply because he couldn't be sure whether or not Janeway would remember what had happened. But at the end, when everything is back to normal, he still won't say what happened. The only piece of info he'd need to be careful with is talking about future I'cheb and Naomi, and even then, I don't think they gave him any actual details.

inflatable dalek
2017-04-28, 09:25 PM
Into the second season of Voyager now!

Nothing much you can say about it that hasn't been said a lot before. The best episodes are the ones that aren't just TNG season 8. The Kazon are dull as ****, but the ongoing negotiations and conflicts with them bring out the best in the format and Seska is actually a good camp villain (though really they shouldn't be running in to the same Kazon over and over when Voyager is the fastest ship out there).

I think the only episode that was just a TNG script that worked was the Q one, mainly because John de Lancie is such fun, but it also explored a serious issue in a fairly sensible way.

Character wise, why on Earth did they keep Neelix aboard for the whole seven years? He's an appallingly bad character and contributes nothing beyond a joke that the jobs he's supposed to do he's crap at.

Janeway is actually very good, as is the Doctor. Everyone else is either dull, or surprisingly badly acted (I was expecting to like Paris, he's just annoying!).

Also everyone, even the characters that are supposed to be young, feel very middle aged.

Tetsuro
2017-05-07, 01:00 AM
Finished Voyager at last. Maybe it's just because I knew what was coming this time around, but Endgame wasn't quite as much of a letdown on the second viewing.

I mean it still is, what with all the plot threads abruptly introduced during the final season just left hanging. I mean, did they just expect the audience to assume what was going to happen, based on what actually happened in the timeline old Janeway ended up erasing?

Still, this leaves me with just one thing left on my shelf to watch; Nemesis.

Oh boy.

Actually, a light-skinned Middle-Eastern man being treated as white is not at all out of character for that period. I don't know if it was different in Europe, but on this side of the ocean most people really had no idea about anyone from that part of the world. As long as they didn't dress like Yasser Arafat, have an obviously foreign name or really dark skin, no one would have noticed or cared. In Siddig's case, the English accent and relatively fair skin would have meant that most folks would have just assumed he was a Brit with a tan, especially with a name like "Julius Eaton".
I always thought Bashir was from somewhere in the Indian region, maybe Pakistani at most, which would at least explain the accent.

inflatable dalek
2017-07-14, 12:58 PM
I'm now coming up on the end of season 5 of Voyager.












Phhhhhhhhttttttttttttttttttgggggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhffffs.











More cheerfully, Kirk Thatcher has reprised his role as Punk On Bus (this time, off the bus!) from Star Trek IV in Spider-Man Homecoming:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/therinofandor/35719561741/

Tetsuro
2017-07-14, 06:02 PM
Well, I finally watched Nemesis, and...well, in spite of it's flaws, I no longer think it's definitely worse than Insurrection.

That doesn't mean I think it's better either. I'm just not sure anymore.

I do get the feeling there's a lot of exposition missing so some of the character motives are left unintentionally vague. And what was the point of the whole psychic rape scene anyway?

inflatable dalek
2017-08-04, 08:27 PM
The Rock was in Star Trek Voyager.

The Rock.

He played a wrestler.

IN SPACE.

He sounded like he'd been dubbed by someone else.

They have An Actual Actor play the main SPACE wrestler as obviously no real wrestler could carry a big role.

Tetsuro
2017-08-06, 06:26 AM
The Rock was in Star Trek Voyager.

The Rock.

He played a wrestler.

IN SPACE.

He sounded like he'd been dubbed by someone else.

They have An Actual Actor play the main SPACE wrestler as obviously no real wrestler could carry a big role.
You only just now discovered this?

(also he talks?)

It's kind of weird to consider that this happened before he was in any of those Mummy movies and went from Big to Really Big.

I saw an article a while back saying that before the Watchmen movie, they were talking about making a movie based on Marshall Law - with The Rock playing the title character. They turned him down. And then his salaries went through the roof. Whoops!

Cyberstrike nTo
2017-08-07, 11:04 PM
You only just now discovered this?

(also he talks?)

It's kind of weird to consider that this happened before he was in any of those Mummy movies and went from Big to Really Big.

I saw an article a while back saying that before the Watchmen movie, they were talking about making a movie based on Marshall Law - with The Rock playing the title character. They turned him down. And then his salaries went through the roof. Whoops!

He doesn't talk much and speaks so softly that you can barely him with the crowd chanting in the background just like going to a major wrestling event back in the day. Ah good times.

Also he's not the only wrestler to appear in Star Trek, Paul Wright (aka The Big Show) appears as a giant Orion slave master in an episode in season 4 of Star Trek: Enterprise it one of the episodes that were a 3 parter with Brent Spinner and is IMHO is 3 of better episodes of that series despite all the fan service that is in it.

Tetsuro
2017-08-08, 03:26 PM
Coincidentally, Enterprise and Beyond are now the only Star Trek productions I have never seen.

I'm still sitting on the idea of importing the Enterprise blu-ray box set because none of my local distributors have decided to pick it up for some reason, only selling the individual seasons - and even then it's only the first two.

Cyberstrike nTo
2017-08-09, 01:22 AM
Coincidentally, Enterprise and Beyond are now the only Star Trek productions I have never seen.

I'm still sitting on the idea of importing the Enterprise blu-ray box set because none of my local distributors have decided to pick it up for some reason, only selling the individual seasons - and even then it's only the first two.

See if Star Trek is available on Netflix, Amazon Prime, or similar streaming service in your country. All of the Star Trek shows, in the US, are on both platforms and Amazon has most if not all the movies as their free Prime movies at various times.

Enterprise season 1 is pretty boring. It's not as bad as the first season of TNG it's mostly just boring and bland.

Enterprise season 2 is OK with some good episodes. My favorite episode from this series "Stigma" is in season 2. The finale episode of season 2 is where the Xindi War starts. The Xindi as a concept might be one of the most original races in all of Star Trek maybe even all of sci-fi. It's just how they explain what the Xindi are and how they pull the Xindi off look is a hit-and-miss though.

Star Trek: Enterprise season 3 is the best season. The Xindi War while not as good as the epic Dominion War on DS9 it does the job of some much needed character building for Archer and The Temporal Cold War finally allows the writers out the continuity box and reveal that even die hard Trekkers didn't know everything about the backstory of the Star Trek universe.

Star Trek: Enterprise season 4 is a lot of fun fan service after the third episode which ends the Xindi War and the Temporal Cold War arcs and Archer gets over his PTSD in a unique way. The 3 part story with Brent Spinner is a lot of fun and Spinner gets to play something like an anti-hero which is something he never did as Data, Lore, B-4, or the guy who made them and he's pretty good at it. There is a lot of moral ambiguity to "whole what do we do with the embryos of people like Khan" debate that runs through all 3 episodes.
The 2 part "In a Mirror, Darkly" is the second best Mirror Universe only the TOS episode that introduced it is better, (IMHO one of DS9's weakness was that they beat the Mirror Universe to death by the third one) and Scott Bakula get a chance to play a complete and total ruthless evil bastard and he is quite menacing, it also explains what happens to the Defiant for TOS episode "Tholin's Web" and the while CGI Tholin IMHO still looks pretty good, the CGI Gorn is laughable bad overall it's a lot of stupid fun in these 2 episodes.
"These Are The Voyages..." is the final episode and is a side story to a damn good TNG episode called "Pegasus" while both Sirtis and Frakes looked caked in make up and they still just barely pull that they are the same age when the filmed "Pegasus", (especially Frakes). I do like how Archer and crew look to towards the future for inspiration while Riker and Troi look to them for inspiration and there is also some funny in-jokes. The final shots showing the Enterprise from all 3 shows with Stewart, Shatner, and Bakula all saying a third of the famous motto is just a great ending.

Star Trek: Enterprise is not the best or even the most fun Star Trek TV show (IMHO that would be Star Trek: Deep Space 9 and Star Trek: Voyager respectfully) but once the Xindi War starts in season 3 and showing how the Federation comes to be in season 4, that is where it gets fun and has some of it's best stories and moments. Seasons 1 and 2 are OK, they are not as awful (for the most part) as many believe, it's that the first two seasons feel like they almost ashamed of being a Star Trek TV show and most of the episodes in seasons 1 and 2 are just boring, bland, and forgettable. Now there are some good episodes and a few stinkers here and there, just not enough either way to be great or awful.

IMHO being a prequel is what hurt this series the most because it couldn't escape the continuity and the whole reason why they did The Temporal Cold War was a chance to change the continuity by having a huge event like the Xindi War that killed 7 million people on Earth and left a canyon from Florida to Venezuela and why Kirk, Picard, Sisko, and Janeway never seemed to know anything about it. Maybe they should done a hard reboot of the franchise and shouldn't have bothered with it being a prequel. It's a series that tries so hard to be great, but was just being clobbered by other sci-fi shows on at the time like Battlestar Galactia, Babylon 5, Crusade, Stargate SG-1, and Farscape that were more interesting and made Star Trek: Enterprise look old and worn out before the first episode aired. You can't be missed if you never leave and maybe Star Trek as a whole needed a break. That is my 2 cents.

Tetsuro
2017-08-09, 03:02 PM
I'm not touching streaming. I've never wanted anything less than physical copies of everything, and even less so after the one time I actually tried renting a movie online, only for the damn thing to not work. Besides, the box set's only like 35 pounds on Amazon.

Also I never bothered with neo-BSG. I didn't even make it through the four episode pilot; I don't know what killed it for me harder, the shakycam or using the "protagonists abandon civilians in slower ships to their deaths" tactic three times in a row.

Cyberstrike nTo
2017-08-09, 11:24 PM
I'm not touching streaming. I've never wanted anything less than physical copies of everything, and even less so after the one time I actually tried renting a movie online, only for the damn thing to not work. Besides, the box set's only like 35 pounds on Amazon.


I would buy the complete series and half, since the best parts of it in seasons 3 and 4.

I'm like that too, but streaming is a great way to try TV shows for lot less, I never would tried shows like Farscape and Supergirl I buy a few episodes on my Xbox One and out for 2 bucks for an episode and if like it and see if it's something that I wanted to pay money for the whole series on Blu-Ray.

IMHO Farscape is one of the most criminally under-rated sci-fi shows in the last 20 years especially since The Guardians of the Galaxy movies are basically rip-off of it, good rip-offs though but the characters in the movies feel like the characters from Farscape than the comics I've read with them in it.

The whole series is on Blu-ray and packed with special features and the mini-series conclusion called Farscape: The Peacekeeper Wars is on DVD in the US, and it's on Blu-Ray in other countries though.

inflatable dalek
2017-08-10, 11:57 AM
Farscape was one of (possibly the last?) of those US SF shows that was more popular in the UK due to better scheduling on a terrestrial network.

Personally I'd say Voyager and Enterprise aren't worth buying on physical home media. They're almost the perfect shows for streaming really in that watching them once out of curiosity is enough.

Currently watching the Voyager where Kes Comes Back. Such a shame to see the effects of the hard life the actress had after leaving. When she's pretending to be season 1 Kes she barely looks like the same person.

It's another (and there's been a few) of those time travel shows where they try and do an All Good Things and show how much the series has changed over the years but it basically boils down to Janeway having a different haircut.

Cyberstrike nTo
2017-08-18, 11:12 PM
Am I the only the Trekker who thinks Janeway looked more commanding (and sexy) when she had her cut shorter in the later seasons instead of that stupid looking bun on the top of her head at the start of the series.

Heinrad
2017-08-21, 02:56 AM
Nope. I always thought her hair looked much better in the later seasons.

But then, I do love me some redheads, and have always had a crush of Mrs. Columbo, so I may be biased......

inflatable dalek
2017-09-01, 07:06 PM
Seven of Nine certainly kept her mad passionate love for Chakotay hidden well for four years.

Unicron
2017-09-01, 07:14 PM
Seven of Nine certainly kept her mad passionate love for Chakotay hidden well for four years.
Yeah, that certainly came out of nowhere. I kept expecting something between her and the Doctor.

inflatable dalek
2017-09-01, 07:22 PM
And despite loving him so much she shags a holodeck version of him, she doesn't know the real Chakotay is vegetarian.

But why would the writers remember he's a vegetarian when it was last mentioned as long ago as two episodes previously?

It was also nice finally, finally, after six and a half years, for Janeway to get some sex with an actual real flesh and blood person in that two parter that was basically The Killing Game but "What if the aliens who give them all false personalities put them to work in a factory rather than an episode of Allo Allo?"

When Janeway was at it with that hologram (everyone on this show is shagging on the holodeck. No wonder Barclay likes them), the Doctor encouraging her to go at it was a really weird scene because for all he prattled on about love transending boundaries it was basically a lengthy chat about how sex dolls are great as it was impossible to take Irish O'Irish seriously as anything but a hard light dildo with legs.

Tetsuro
2017-09-02, 05:31 AM
I remember a friend of mine complained about that episode because of how uncharacteristically horny Janeway was in that episode. The Oyland episode, not Workforce.

But then, it's not like consistent characterization is one of Voyager's defining traits. I always did find the relationship between Seven and Chakotay really did come out of nowhere, and it's just one of the many things that are just left hanging at the series finale.

In one hand, I kinda wish Elite Force II had just kept the Voyager setting because the Enterprise-E setting was pretty much wasted since only Picard and Barclay show up out of all the TNG characters and it might've given us some kind of a proper epilogue to Voyager, but in the other, I shouldn't have to settle with what is essentially non-canon EU for some kind of resolution.

Still, I'm tempted to read some of those DS9 novels that continue where the TV show left off. Sisko just bugging off and leaving behind a son, a wife and an unborn child left me wanting.

Unicron
2017-09-02, 11:13 PM
Still, I'm tempted to read some of those DS9 novels that continue where the TV show left off. Sisko just bugging off and leaving behind a son, a wife and an unborn child left me wanting.
It's not like he had much choice there. The Prophets were all like 'you did your job so now you get to hang out here in the glowy white space'.

The ending to Voyager always bugged me. They made it back to Earth, yippee. And then what? Aside from Janeway becoming an Admiral, we know nothing of what happened to anyone. Did anyone else get promoted? Were the Maquis arrested on arrival? Was the Doctor shipped off to mining duty like his brothers?

inflatable dalek
2017-09-03, 12:39 AM
I did read recently they tried to put Seven in Nemesis. First as a threat to Marina Sirtis if she didn't sign up ("Don't want to accept this pay package? Fine! We have another Star Trek Babe right here!") and then as a cameo at the wedding.

The latter of which Jeri Ryan refused point blank on the grounds it would make no sense for her to be at the wedding of two characters who were strangers to her.

Which is a sharp contrast to Jonathan Frakes' "I thought the idea of the last Enterprise episode was terrible, but I never say no to Star Trek" paycheck philosophy.

Tetsuro
2017-09-03, 02:55 AM
The ending to Voyager always bugged me. They made it back to Earth, yippee. And then what? Aside from Janeway becoming an Admiral, we know nothing of what happened to anyone. Did anyone else get promoted? Were the Maquis arrested on arrival? Was the Doctor shipped off to mining duty like his brothers?
I think they were trying to make the future scenes represent that, but since Admiral Janeway erased that timeline, none of it mattered.

I was just reading the transcript to Message in a Bottle, and I remembered something that bothered me about the subplot in that episode. Harry Kim tries to create a new EMH from scratch, but they already had demonstrated the ability to recreate real people on the holodeck with the Cardassian Josef Mengele, so why didn't he just take an existing MD in the database and use that as a template?

Warcry
2017-09-03, 05:47 AM
Still, I'm tempted to read some of those DS9 novels that continue where the TV show left off. Sisko just bugging off and leaving behind a son, a wife and an unborn child left me wanting.
The novels were really good, and did a great job of carrying on the dangling threads left at the end of the series and making a compelling story out of them, and as long as you don't mind that half of the cast is original characters (which is a given considering how the show ended) and that they rope in Ro Laren on a flimsy pretext, it was an enjoyable run. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that for about a decade, the DS9 "relaunch" novels were the best thing going in Star Trek fiction. But Pocket had a major editorial shakeup and the series just ends...no, that's not even the right word. The series just stops in the most unsatisfying place possible, with a major conflict looming that was set up to pay off plot hooks that they'd been setting for about six years.

The good news is that the series is broadly divided into two "seasons", plot-wise. The first season (from Avatar to Unity) addresses most of what you want to know, and does so quite well. Taken on its own merits it's satisfying as all hell, and in a lot of ways Unity felt to me like the ending that the TV show should have had in the first place. The second season is kind of a mess. It spends a lot of time addressing loose ends from the previous books that probably didn't need addressing as an excuse to do character development (no great sin in an ongoing series that was set to run in perpetuity, but knowing what actually happened...), and once the plot really starts rolling...the axe fell because the new editor wanted to rope all of the 24th century Trek cast into the dire Borgfest that the TNG relaunch had become, and to do that they had to time-skip the DS9 people three years forward with zero closure and zero regard for the fact that it was their most popular series and their readers had been following it religiously for a decade.

(Yes, I'm still mad.)

As long as you either stop at Unity or go into the later stuff accepting that you won't get any payoff, it's worth reading.

The ending to Voyager always bugged me. They made it back to Earth, yippee. And then what? Aside from Janeway becoming an Admiral, we know nothing of what happened to anyone. Did anyone else get promoted? Were the Maquis arrested on arrival? Was the Doctor shipped off to mining duty like his brothers?
I like to think that Harry Kim was still an ensign well into his 50s. I mean, if what he did during the run of the show hadn't earned him a promotion...

I get that there's not much room for advancement on a solo ship lost on the wrong side of the galaxy, but hell, Tuvok and Paris both got promotions through the course of the series (in Tom's case, after being very deservingly demoted). Janeway could have at least tossed an extra pip the guy's way out of sympathy. How much must it have sucked to watch the convict who's been stripped of his rank twice get made a lieutenant again while he's stuck being an ensign for life?

Heinrad
2017-09-03, 02:57 PM
Well, if Star Trek Online can be considered canon(it probably can't, if for no other reason than your character goes from lieutenant junior grade to Fleet Admiral in less than a year. Jeez, people get promoted fast after the TOS era....), Tuvok becomes an Admiral, both Harry Kim and Tom Paris are Captains, I think Tom's daughter is a Lieutenant Commander, Seven's doing scientific type stuff, and Neelix is.....well....still Neelix.

I still can't believe that part. Less than a year. You stop a war with the Klingons, fight a very brief war with the Borg, fight a major war with the Vardwaar, fight a "If we don't win this, what the Dominion invasion would have done to us is nothing" war against the Iconians, and at the end of it all.... I'd guess it's been maybe 4 months since you graduated from Starfleet Academy.

Out of utter curiousity, is this editorial shakeup why they're haven't been any New Frontier books for a while?

Warcry
2017-09-05, 02:56 AM
Out of utter curiousity, is this editorial shakeup why they're haven't been any New Frontier books for a while?
I think a lot of that was due to Peter David's health -- he had a stroke in 2012 that understandably slowed him down a lot. Though the latest book came out a couple years ago and it was eBook-only, which doesn't exactly sound like a vote of editorial confidence.

And to be honest, while I've enjoyed New Frontier a lot, it feels like a series that's long since run its course, and I'd guess that plays a role too.

Tetsuro
2017-09-29, 02:33 PM
Since we're talking about the novels, is there any book that deals with the holographic Moriarty? Last we saw him, they stuck him in a virtual reality box, but through Voyager they now technically have the ability to give him the true mobility that he wanted.

Then again, considering he also took Enterprise hostage, the Federation probably isn't going to feel that charitable towards him.