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zigzagger
2015-10-16, 06:10 AM
Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers #1 three-page preview by way of IDW Publishing (http://www.idwpublishing.com/transformers-sins-of-the-wreckers-1-ashcan/).

THE WRECKERS RETURN! Somebody’s kidnapped PROWL… but does anybody want him back? A lifetime of messing with everybody’s lives comes around to haunt him. Fortunately, he’s always got a plan. In this case… the one team of brutal, broken heroes… the WRECKERS!

Rack 'n Ruin
2015-10-16, 07:32 AM
It is upon us! Hallejulah!

(Though, a different art style than I was expecting. Not bad, just not what I expected.)

Red Dave Prime
2015-10-16, 04:06 PM
Seems closer to the original Kup spotlight - no bad thing that.

Blackjack
2015-10-16, 06:12 PM
What is this thing

What a great and highly welcome surprise! Had no idea this existed.

Man, I really need to keep up with comics better. I'm barely even catching up to MTMTE.

Also, Arcee? Huh, hopefully her... third? Fourth? Rodeo in the IDW comics won't be ass.

Death's Head
2015-11-21, 04:15 PM
Even more: http://www.newsarama.com/26889-preview-transformers-sins-of-the-wreckers-1.html

Auntie Slag
2015-11-21, 08:14 PM
Does this kick off next week?

Poor choice of words; kick off... sob!

Red Dave Prime
2015-11-22, 12:50 AM
Indeed it does.

I'm going to say this now.... Not loving the art work. Not hating it, but not loving it. Its not as bleak as the Spotlight Kup stuff and it lacks the charm of Roches normal style. I'm guessing he is trying for something deliberately different so fair balls and all. Maybe I'll warm to it. But the story looks great. Countdown is on.

inflatable dalek
2015-11-25, 11:24 AM
OUT NOW AND READ. DON'T GO FURTHER UNLESS YOU WANT TO BE SPOILT.






WHICH WOULD BE A SIN.















Let's talk art first. Roche is trying something different here, but it's not that Don style thing of "I went away and didn't want to come back so I'M STICKING MOVIE FACES ON CHARACTER DESIGNS THAT DON'T SUIT THEM YOU BASTARDS", it's a more pencil-ey-sketchy-(? I don't know, I'm not an artist) look that, once you get past the "Is this Roche?" block actually works very well. And it's a smart move as well, Roche basically defined the current "Look" of IDW when he came up with the character designs for DoOP and MTMTE that the other artists have stuck to for the last four years, he needed something fresh here for the book to stand out.

Before we did into the plot itself, a dull continuity thing. Where do we think this fits in with Ex-RID? It's obviously not parallel with the current storyline with everyone trapped on the Ark for months, so it either has to be before or after. Before would make sense of things like Prowl's room being intact and not all shot up, but none of this having been mentioned could equally mean after with a new Ark that Prowl had just set up a room on (the fact he's supposed to be in prison doesn't get a mention either way).

Actually, was there a gap between Prowl being lost in that epilogue issue and the current story where Arcee and Kup would have time to deal with this? Hmm, has Kup actually been in Ex-RID recently?

That aside:

I liked that. A nice slow burn start that is basically about making sure this is a series that can work without prior knowledge. That might leave more knowledgeable readers chomping at the bit, but it's actually nice it doesn't assume everyone knows the details of a five year old comic backwards or will just wiki things they don't understand.

The best stuff was all with the old guard. Impactor's frustration at his failure with Guzzle (and how much he wanted to join in that massacre) and the seeming hopelessness for Springer; Roadbuster's new no doubt short lived mellow persona; Kup's sense of loyalty to both Prowl and Springer, with the later being enough to raise the near-dead (cheesy, but it worked) and, in a pleasing fit for the series, Arcee well and truly narked at everything.

Of the new Autobots, Hubcap felt a bit of an Ironfist proxy, but I suspect that's deliberate wrong-footing. Stakeout seemed like fun as a desperate Ultra Magnus wannabe, but he did kind of buckle under the weight of suddenly having five years of history with Verity which felt a bit convinient.

Dude got to punch a polar bear though.

My main dislike though remains Verity. At least unlike Last Stand there was a reason for her being here due to the already established Data Slug (in the first series she was effectively there because Roche didn't want to draw just robots for five months. Which is understandable but ressurecting a character who had already been sidelined and forgotten about by her creator in an embarrassed way long before he left the main title might not have been the best way of doing it. "At least she's not Jimmy Pink" isn't the best response) and her being older helps avoid the middle aged British Isles Guys Trying To Write American Teenagers problems.

But she's still annoyingly up herself--seriously Verity, have a look around and say again how tough your life has been because of the Transformers--and I'm not really convinced the slug has anything on it that's worse than Tyrest actually turning out to be a crazy man who likes to drill holes in his head and tried to kill half of his entire species. If that didn't destroy all faith in the credibility and worthiness of the Autobot judicial system and their general good standing, then I'm not sure what will.

It could perhaps have done with a stronger cliffhanger as well, "It's the Wreckers!" in a book called Sins of the Wreckers can't help but be a bit underwhelming, even if "We're here to help" was nice.

Still, overall, a very nice mysterious start.



Oh, and you want to hear my mad Prowl theory?


Kup is actually Prowl (or at least the important bits of him) wearing the Kup Pretender shell suit thing. Hence him knowing the codes and how Prowl thinks. The Prowl scene in the issue was him hidden deep within a copy of Kup's personality being tormented by his own demons.

As to why he's hiding or who he's hiding from...

That's exhausting my insane speculation.

(As for Verity's illness/link with Stakeout... surely not the Headmaster process?)

Terome
2015-11-25, 12:18 PM
with the later being enough to raise the near-dead (cheesy, but it worked)

As fuel to your Kup-is-Prowl theory, looks to me like Springer was not in a coma but was deliberately put on ice. He wakes up at the sound of the voice of the guy who can open Prowl's doors at a touch? The guy whose body Prowl can take control of whenever he wishes? Nothing miraculous about that awakening.

I've got lots of thoughts on this but I need to save them for later. This was great, surprisingly low-key and the art was utterly stonking. Worth the five year wait.

Unicron
2015-11-25, 01:42 PM
Before we did into the plot itself, a dull continuity thing. Where do we think this fits in with Ex-RID?
The Wiki pegs it as between 44 and 45

Patapsco
2015-11-25, 08:01 PM
Oh, and you want to hear my mad Prowl theory?


Kup is actually Prowl (or at least the important bits of him) wearing the Kup Pretender shell suit thing. Hence him knowing the codes and how Prowl thinks. The Prowl scene in the issue was him hidden deep within a copy of Kup's personality being tormented by his own demons.

As to why he's hiding or who he's hiding from...

That's exhausting my insane speculation.

(As for Verity's illness/link with Stakeout... surely not the Headmaster process?)

Didn't Perceptor and Brainstorm install some new personality routines in Kup when he underwent the pretender process so Prowl could use Kup as a way to get Prime to end the war? Wouldn't surprise me that he put a few more things in there or some sort of link there too

zigzagger
2015-11-25, 10:27 PM
Certainly more low key than their last outing, but a pleasant start.

Just some notes for now:

It's not entirely clear where the story is going yet as the pieces are still being set, or quiiiiite what the urgency is here, but there's more than enough intrigue to sustain me.

It's been five-ish years (holy ****, has it really been that long?), so seeing how the Wreckers have been managing during quasi-peacetime feels perfectly justified to me.

Roadbuster and Impactor coping with obsolescence was bittersweet, and I've loooong come to the conclusion that Nick Roche is the only person that can do Kup justice.

I also agree that there was nothing miraculous about Springer's awakening, for pretty much all the reasons Terome and Dalek stated. Arcee's skepticism only helps to support this theory too.

Speaking of which, some decent character salvaging with Arcee (kind of what it is, isn't it?). She'll fit the tone of the series well enough, I think.

I would agree that Hubcap felt slightly like an Ironfist proxy, in spite of not being too terribly impressed by Impactor ("I'm not one of them"). Pretty funny, that scene.

And he somehow manages to be far more awkward than Ironfist ever was. Then again, the nervous stammering is probably a clever ruse, a big floppy red herring. Still, it's wonderful to see that someone actually remembers who he is, so I'm game for some Hubcap appreciation.

I'm quite liking Roche's art here. It's highly expressive as always, sure, but there's a smarter use of space. Not a whole lot of 'bots hunching down to fit into a panel. The 'penciled' looked and leaner characters is also reminiscent to his work in Spotlight: Kup, but much, much cleaner.


Between this and the mood whiplash that was MTMTE #47, I'm still gathering my thoughts. More ramblings to come, I hope.

Warcry
2015-11-26, 06:02 PM
This was not at all what I expected, though I'd say that's a good thing.

First off, re: Impactor...shouldn't he, you know, be in jail? Grimlock apparently still needs to serve his time, so why does ol' harpoon hand get off scot-free? He's hanging out on Debris, so it's not like he's in hiding or anything.

Let's talk art first. Roche is trying something different here, but it's not that Don style thing of "I went away and didn't want to come back so I'M STICKING MOVIE FACES ON CHARACTER DESIGNS THAT DON'T SUIT THEM YOU BASTARDS", it's a more pencil-ey-sketchy-(? I don't know, I'm not an artist) look that, once you get past the "Is this Roche?" block actually works very well. And it's a smart move as well, Roche basically defined the current "Look" of IDW when he came up with the character designs for DoOP and MTMTE that the other artists have stuck to for the last four years, he needed something fresh here for the book to stand out.
Is it really all that new or different, though? If anything it seems like a throwback to Marvel-style art. Either way, I really liked it! I've never been a huge fan of Roche's pencils before, but this time around I think the art looks beautiful.

Of the new Autobots, Hubcap felt a bit of an Ironfist proxy, but I suspect that's deliberate wrong-footing. Stakeout seemed like fun as a desperate Ultra Magnus wannabe, but he did kind of buckle under the weight of suddenly having five years of history with Verity which felt a bit convinient.
Maybe I'm letting my own history with the character cloud my view of him here (I used him for ages in the site's RPG as a comic relief petty criminal) but I thought it pretty obvious that Hubcap had a nefarious streak to him. The line about how he got himself assigned to Debris so that he could have access to the communications equipment just screamed "up to no good!"

Stakeout seems interesting so far, but the close relationship that he's got with Verity does seem a bit like cheating to me. Not for its' own sake, but because I don't think we've ever seen a human and a Transformer actually build a friendship in this universe. It would have been great to see them become friends rather than be tossed into it after it's already established.

Kup is actually Prowl (or at least the important bits of him) wearing the Kup Pretender shell suit thing. Hence him knowing the codes and how Prowl thinks. The Prowl scene in the issue was him hidden deep within a copy of Kup's personality being tormented by his own demons.
Well, we do know that there's a "part" of Prowl inside Kup's head. We never really established just how much, or how deep that connection runs. I wouldn't put it out of the realm of possibility that Prowl could transfer himself there if things got tough, but I think it's just as likely that he coded in a "in case of emergency, break glass" sort of compulsion that would make Kup come looking, just in case a scenario like this played out.

Though that brings me to me biggest complaint about the story so far, which can basically be boiled down to: **** IDW Prowl. **** him with a rusty chainsaw. The character has become so tired and hackneyed that I just wish he would go away and stay gone. The story seems to be building up to another "oh, Prowl's done something evil!" reveal and I just can't bring myself to care about his newest atrocity, whatever it may be. He's turned into Dreamwave Shockwave, "secretly" behind everything, and he never gets his comeuppance because the writers have (so far) been unwilling to deal with just how abhorrent they've made him (he really should still be in jail for what he did in Combiner Wars, or at the very least stripped of his rank and authority for it, but no).

The sad thing is that the monster he's become is sort of Roche's own fault. In AHM 15 he wrote the character to be morally ambiguous, which was great. But subsequent writers have just piled on, making him do more and more awful things until the original "good guy who does bad things for the cause" idea was overwhelmed entirely. There's nothing ambiguous about Prowl these days. He's a stock villain whose time has passed, and if this series does away with him nothing would make me happier.

And those of you like ziggy who know how much I love Prowl will know how hard it is for me to say that.

It's been five-ish years (holy ****, has it really been that long?), so seeing how the Wreckers have been managing during quasi-peacetime feels perfectly justified to me.
It only feels like a few months. :(

I don't think I've been as hyped for any other fiction since then, which is probably why it feels so fresh after so long. Here's hoping this series will live up to the first!

I also agree that there was nothing miraculous about Springer's awakening, for pretty much all the reasons Terome and Dalek stated. Arcee's skepticism only helps to support this theory too.
Yeah. I immediately wondered if there was actually nothing wrong with him at all, but Prowl had him put on ice just to make his own life easier. Obviously he knew that it would be trivial for Springer to be brought back online when he needed him, because he's not the type to leave his emergency messages unedited for five years while his designated saviour is on death's door.

inflatable dalek
2015-11-26, 08:47 PM
First off, re: Impactor...shouldn't he, you know, be in jail? Grimlock apparently still needs to serve his time, so why does ol' harpoon hand get off scot-free? He's hanging out on Debris, so it's not like he's in hiding or anything.

He was pardoned at the end of Last Stand for services rendered, hence him going off with Guzzle. Grimlock is still officially an escapee, though how reliable Fort Max would be on that score is open to debate, he'd probably try to kill Impactor as well.

Warcry
2015-11-26, 09:01 PM
He was pardoned at the end of Last Stand for services rendered, hence him going off with Guzzle. Grimlock is still officially an escapee, though how reliable Fort Max would be on that score is open to debate, he'd probably try to kill Impactor as well.
Was he? I'd thought they just went "screw this, we're out of here" and took off. Obviously I need to reread the first series. :)

You'd think being tortured for several years would earn Grimlock a pardon too, especially since his crime was orders of magnitude smaller than what Impactor did. But then we've clearly seen how screwed up the Transformers' criminal justice system is, so...

And like you say, Fort Max would probably flip out on Impactor too.

Denyer
2015-11-26, 09:05 PM
It would have been great to see them become friends rather than be tossed into it after it's already established.

Yeah. I'd have read RID if it'd been that.

Springer plus Kup and codes... could definitely see Prowl's captivity being mental rather than physical and all three of those events closely linked. Maybe Roche will even manage to redeem Prowl from the dross of the last few years.

inflatable dalek
2015-11-26, 09:10 PM
Was he? I'd thought they just went "screw this, we're out of here" and took off. Obviously I need to reread the first series. :)

Yeah, it's established in the last chat between Magnus (and why hasn't he followed up on the data slug he gave Prowl actually?) and Prowl.

You'd think being tortured for several years would earn Grimlock a pardon too, especially since his crime was orders of magnitude smaller than what Impactor did. But then we've clearly seen how screwed up the Transformers' criminal justice system is, so...

Up till last issue only the Scavengers knew what had happened to Grimlock though, as far as everyone else is concerned he was just missing.

Warcry
2015-11-26, 09:26 PM
Yeah, it's established in the last chat between Magnus (and why hasn't he followed up on the data slug he gave Prowl actually?) and Prowl.
Too busy auditing doorframes, obviously. He's got to tackle these things in order of priority, you know.

Up till last issue only the Scavengers knew what had happened to Grimlock though, as far as everyone else is concerned he was just missing.
I was only thinking of what he went through in G9 while Overlord was in charge, actually, which the Wreckers did hear about. Being locked up and forced to watch while his fellow Autobots were killed, that sort of thing.

What was Grimlock actually guilty of, anyway? My memory is foggy but I thought the main reason the Dinobots were even listed as "wanted" to begin with was because everyone thought they had deserted when they'd gotten lost on their unauthorized mission to kill Shockwave.

inflatable dalek
2015-11-27, 03:07 PM
What was Grimlock actually guilty of, anyway? My memory is foggy but I thought the main reason the Dinobots were even listed as "wanted" to begin with was because everyone thought they had deserted when they'd gotten lost on their unauthorized mission to kill Shockwave.

I think they actually did desert in order to go after Shockwave (in that they were supposed to be somewhere else and doing something else), it just wound up for being for longer than they thought. I think teaming up with the Monsterbots was also a no-no.

Grimlock did get the others a pardon though in exchange for taking a jail term himself, so it's not unreasonable Impactor would get the same. You know, back when we had a half-sane Duly Appointed Enforcer.

Terome
2015-11-27, 03:59 PM
I really liked how Impactor was just there, hanging out. I'd assumed that his adventures with Guzzle would take him far away and that recruiting him would be a plot point. But of course he can't get rid of his old habits. He probably would be arrested if Fort Max was useful. Actually, Fort Max is probably Impactor's biggest fan.

Denyer: could definitely see Prowl's captivity being mental rather than physical
Hey, didn't think of that. The one eye and physical damage might say otherwise but that could easily be a red herring.

Re: Warcry: I also hope that this is Prowl's last outing. He's mined out completely as a character now. Roche should be the one to put him out of his misery.

Burcham has really learned some good lessons on colouring - there's none of the unnecessary flashes and glows here. It was a weirdly big relief to finally see some eyes that aren't glowing like searchlights.

inflatable dalek
2015-11-27, 04:05 PM
One minor niggle is the recurrence of an old problem: It semed to take no time at all to get from Debris to Earth, unless we've got a massive gap between Kup using his Jedi powers to wake Springer up and Arcee finding Verity it can only be hours at most (and that includes the time it took for Spriger to explain things to Roadbuster and Impactor and then to calm Guzzle down). I guess it's just in the neighbourhood?

zigzagger
2015-11-27, 06:49 PM
And those of you like ziggy who know how much I love Prowl will know how hard it is for me to say that.



Oooh, I very much do ;) And I know my iteration of Prowl in the TFA RPG made you.... err, uncomfortable sometimes.

At any rate, I agree, Roche would be the man to put the character out of his misery.

I was definitely of the camp that was totally on board with the morally ambiguous Prowl he introduced. Still am, I suppose. To me, it felt like a natural, logical progression from the officious, by-the-numbers prick that we met back in Infiltration.

But as you say, after passing from Costa, then to Barber and Roberts, all the subtly was completely lost. Prowl's is barely short of being a villain of the mustache twirling variety these days, and I have to wonder if that was ever Roche's intent.

Warcry
2015-11-27, 08:09 PM
I think they actually did desert in order to go after Shockwave (in that they were supposed to be somewhere else and doing something else), it just wound up for being for longer than they thought. I think teaming up with the Monsterbots was also a no-no.
The Monsterbots can't have been that bad, surely? I mean they're free and clear to hang out on the Lost Light now, so obviously they're not considered Grimlock-tier criminals.

I don't remember if the Dinos had other orders at the time, but I'm pretty sure Optimus had told them specifically to stop chasing Shockwave, so at the very least they'd disobeyed orders and done exactly what they were told not to do. But on the other hand they were right and they took Shockwave off the board for four million years, so by the usual fictional standards all should be forgiven.

Grimlock did get the others a pardon though in exchange for taking a jail term himself, so it's not unreasonable Impactor would get the same. You know, back when we had a half-sane Duly Appointed Enforcer.
I still can't quite wrap my head around what exactly Fort Max is enforcing, anyway. First of all, he can't be "duly appointed" because Star Saber is the actual duly appointed replacement for Magnus. Secondly, Tyrest is a crazy person so why are we enforcing his laws? Thirdly, the Tyrest Accord mainly has to do with trafficking Transformer weapons tech to aliens, so why is the enforcer running around playing space sheriff? Fourth, it was a wartime accord that bound two warring armies that technically no longer exist. And fifth, Tailgate repealed the damned thing anyway!

One minor niggle is the recurrence of an old problem: It semed to take no time at all to get from Debris to Earth, unless we've got a massive gap between Kup using his Jedi powers to wake Springer up and Arcee finding Verity it can only be hours at most (and that includes the time it took for Spriger to explain things to Roadbuster and Impactor and then to calm Guzzle down). I guess it's just in the neighbourhood?
What makes it stand out all the more is that in the last Wreckers series it (reasonably, IMO) took them months to get from where they'd started to G9. Even if Earth and Debris are close by, there's no way Kup could go there and back in the time it took for Arcee to make the trip from Earth orbit to Alaska.

Oooh, I very much do ;) And I know my iteration of Prowl in the TFA RPG made you.... err, uncomfortable sometimes.
Right, but that's what a morally ambiguous character is meant to do. The problem is that IDW Prowl isn't ambiguous in the slightest. He's blatantly, transparently evil to such a ridiculous degree that I can't believe Optimus tolerated his horrible antics for four million years.

To me, it felt like a natural, logical progression from the officious, by-the-numbers prick that we met back in Infiltration.
One issue I have with this take on the character is that I just don't see what you see here. When we met Prowl in the IDWverse he was a walking rulebook with a stick up his ass, not especially smart, tactical or cunning. I could maybe see him being pushed into becoming the sort of character he is now, but the modern books operate on the assumption that he's been that highly-important, vicious amoral puppetmaster for millions of years, and I just can't reconcile that with the boring, unimpressive guy that he was in Infiltration.

Plus, the head of the Autobots' secret intelligence agency should be hidden away in the most secure bunker you can build. he most definitely should not be rotting away on an alien backwater with only a handful of troops to protect him. If he'd actually been the bigwig that the new crop of writers say he was, he'd have had a gigantic target on his back.

But as you say, after passing from Costa, then to Barber and Roberts, all the subtly was completely lost. Prowl's is barely short of being a villain of the mustache twirling variety these days, and I have to wonder if that was ever Roche's intent.
I'm pretty sure it's not, though that's not necessarily a bad thing. In the right circumstances Prowl would have made a fine villain. I really liked the setup of Prowl in the early issues if RiD, when it looked like he was just losing his grip without a war to fight and trying desperately to control a situation that was simply beyond him. That would have made for a very interesting turn for the character, but we all know how that turned out.

Afterwards I think IDW overreacted (or maybe misunderstood) the readership's disappointment with how that arc turned out, because it was then that the switch got flipped to "totally evil" and he started rolling with the Constructicons as his own personal goon squad. And it was all downhill from there. It's like somebody at IDW HQ read the reaction threads and said "Well, they wanted Prowl as a bad guy, so lets give them Prowl as a bad guy!"

zigzagger
2015-11-27, 09:18 PM
One issue I have with this take on the character is that I just don't see what you see here. When we met Prowl in the IDWverse he was a walking rulebook with a stick up his ass, not especially smart, tactical or cunning. I could maybe see him being pushed into becoming the sort of character he is now, but the modern books operate on the assumption that he's been that highly-important, vicious amoral puppetmaster for millions of years, and I just can't reconcile that with the boring, unimpressive guy that he was in Infiltration.

Plus, the head of the Autobots' secret intelligence agency should be hidden away in the most secure bunker you can build. he most definitely should not be rotting away on an alien backwater with only a handful of troops to protect him. If he'd actually been the bigwig that the new crop of writers say he was, he'd have had a gigantic target on his back.



Just so I'm clear, I meant from Furman to Roche, rather than from Roche to everyone else who handled Prowl since.

And also, I'm not especially a fan of his current characterization either.

But yes, all the retroactive changes that have been made to the character following Roche make the shift seem more abrupt and make very little sense.

How I was able to rationalize Prowl's jump from Furman's officious prick to Roche's amoral pragmatist at the time, was pretty much for the reasons you stated: he was pushed to it.

He tried doing things by the book, realized that it didn't work, and found that orchestrating events from behind the scenes produced better results. I don't think at the time it had been established that Prowl had been up to no good all along.

Still, for a character that was 'allegedly' supposed to be the Autobot's number-cruncher, it worked for me -- but, you know, mileage varies.

Denyer
2015-11-27, 09:47 PM
I have a soft spot for Infiltration, but basically everything starts with Chaos Theory / LSOTW by now and most of MTMTE's sister book is getting handwaved as well.

Warcry
2015-11-27, 10:40 PM
Just so I'm clear, I meant from Furman to Roche, rather than from Roche to everyone else who handled Prowl since.
For the most part I'd agree with you, though I think Roche had always treated Prowl as being far more important than any of the other the early IDW books would suggest. He had him ordering the Wreckers' leader around in both Last Stand and Spotlight: Kup, something that you really wouldn't think Prowl would be able to do given his lowly position as commander of counter-infiltration team #42155 or whatever. And even after being demoted in favour of Jazz in AHM he still seemed to have enough clout to have Kup secretly rebuilt and brainwashed on his own authority.

Now, Roche was subtle enough about his retconning that it more-or-less worked without drawing more then a stray "huh?" from me. But he definitely started the importance-inflation that other writers later picked up on and went wild with.

I have a soft spot for Infiltration, but basically everything starts with Chaos Theory / LSOTW by now and most of MTMTE's sister book is getting handwaved as well.
The problem is that there's a selective handwaving going on. There's still plenty of references to older stuff flying about, but only to the stuff that Barber/Roberts liked, while everything else is ignored at best or contradicted at worst. Personally I'd be a lot happier if they'd just decided to scrap the old stuff entirely after the McCarthy and Costa flops, but instead we still have the Dead Universe, Phase Sixers, badass spy Spike and the Tyrest Accord at the same time as we're meant to forget that there are several invincible Pretenders aboard the Lost Light, that Cybertron was uninhabitable for millions of years or that Rodimus is an experienced, veteran commander hardened by years of war and loss.

If the book existed in the same universe as the Marvel comics I could forgive a lot more retconning, but IDW's universe is only a decade old and the sort of selective continuity that they've enacted is really, really annoying.

Red Dave Prime
2015-11-28, 02:32 AM
I always felt Roches version wasnt of a villain at all but of a very pragmatic military mind. He knew the tactics that could beat the cons but he quickly realised that what united the Autobots sadly wasnt the greatest tactical mind but the most charismatic soldiers. So instead of trying to win over troops to do tactics which he knew were correct, he would manipulate others to dish out those tactics. And always (and I think this is key) with the greater good as the end goal, not his own ego.

I'm only guessing but I think what Barber has tried to show with Prowl is what happens when someone like that becomes too addicted to the meddling and also starts to let their own ego influence the choices - in short becoming something like what they originally rallied against. I dont think Barbers Prowl has quite worked out but I think that was the end goal. And like Shockwave, too much has been put on one character to the point where they feel like they have taken up too much page space and have become more a plot device than a character. Should he be put down? I'll actually defend against but only if the story pushes Prowl more - to a breaking point where he ultimately becomes his worst fear. His manipulations should be cut back though at this point - the war is over, and both armies are now well past the point of having any real command structure to coerce but as a rogue agent who is particularly well versed in working sides against each other he could make an interesting character.

Skyquake87
2015-12-01, 09:51 PM
^That's how I see Prowl too. He's a politician in my eyes. I don't read RID and have jettisoned all the IDW comics I had save for my Wreckers hardback and MTMTE and the few spotlights in orbit around that.

That Prowl has fallen into being a villain and a mess as a character is for exactly the reasons outlined by Zigzagger and tbh, this is the problem with a lot of mainstream comics- subtley is out the window for a lot of writers and editors when dealing with larger than life superheroes (or in this case giant robots) and it means editors in particular can get carried away with a writer's intent to make a good guy be 'morally ambiguous' or ruthless or anything else that's outside the limited parameters of what defines an upright, wholesome good guy. Its annoying, and in Prowl's case has lead to the ruination of the character for a lot of you. I've avoided that sh*t, so I'm happy to see where we go next with Prowl and am happy to see him included here.

Dalek's comments about Verity at the top of this thread and her acting out are oddly totally in keeping with today's world. Just withness how social media goes mental at the latest outrage of the day; how everyone these days is so quick to formulate an instant opinion and there must be something done straight away before we all lose interest with no thought for the consequences. Its b*ll*cks and I hate it as there's no room for measured controlled thinking, because everyone wants everything sorting out straight away like magic - you see it in the news daily, where journalists are pressuring people on camera for that snappy soundbite or tears or whatever. So yeah, I can totally see Verity as one of these mouthpiece campaigners that gets on everyone's wick.


...should probably talk a bit about the comic. Having no knowledge of the pretender thing (and my, that sounds all kinds of ... bodygloving), I wondered about Kup and liked the hinty hintness that something's up there. Don't really cared for Kup as a character, grizzled warhorses being one of the dullest cliches imaginable, but Roche writes him so well and turns all that war story crap into genuine experience and I like that he shows him to be properly old in his gait and movement. Class that is.

Arcee was good too, again, not really had much contact with her since Furman's disastrous Spotlight so have missed all the venegful harpy nonsense. She seems very angry about...well everything though, even when she's just chatting to Kup she seems tense and impatient. Is that a thing with her?

I liked seeing Roadbuster speak, which for me is the first time since Target: 2006 and that nice wee scene with Impactor.

Liked Roche's art here, usually his work is pretty open and less inclined to feature much in the way of shading and blocked out areas of black, and I found it gave his work some added weight. I approve!

An issue very much about setting the stage, and I can buy into handwavey stuff like the time it takes to travel from point A to point B. Maybe they have special shoes to get them across the galaxy quickly...

Auntie Slag
2015-12-02, 11:00 PM
Any ideas as to who had got Prowl? I'll take three stabs:

1) Goldfire/Bumblebee: I don't know if he's alive or not, but the silhouette resembled him a little. And I imagine he'd be a bit miffed at Prowl for all the Prowley things he's been getting up to lately.

2) Jazz: Again, purely because of the silhouette and perhaps because he knows more about Prowl than most people? I don't have any evidence of that other than their rank and position shifting as per All Hail Megatron. Maybe Prowl's recent actions compromise Jazz in some way re: the dodgy things that he has done in the past, the files that Kup mentioned.

3) Overlord: Because he's not dead, and maybe he became so intrigued after reading Chromedome's memories (and Rewind's too?), that here was a master Autobot manipulator, someone really interesting that Overlord would love to meet? Actually the first thing that made me think Overlord was Prowl's missing eye. There must be a significance to that? Perhaps an eye for an eye, seeing as Impactor reported to Prowl.

Terome
2015-12-02, 11:09 PM
Not bad theories but I get the feeling that Roche is in to making these things self-contained. I'd say of those three that Overlord is the best bet. If it's not Hubcap then who knows what is going on.

Auntie Slag
2015-12-02, 11:20 PM
Yeah, just pot shots really. Loved the artwork and the almost X-files vibe it gives off. Is the Ark empty apart from Kup?

Also, Verity being chased by all these animals. A rabbit looking down on Prowl on the first page. Then there's a wolf and a polar bear. Are these Pretenders? Then Stakeout is shooting at a whale on the cover of issue 2. Another pretender?

Hubcap is already interesting. I still think there might be a Pipes link, involving Hubcap getting some retribution for his friend, if Overlord is the one whose taken Prowl.

Oh, the other thing that made me think it might be Jazz is because Prowl is in this noisemaze place, and Jazz (at least in the cartoons and tech spec) was a bit of a whiz casting disorienting light and sound effects.

Kup is being VERY cagey regarding how much he knows of Prowl and I feel a bit short changed as to how Springer is suddenly up and at 'em. Though I'm sure that will be properly addressed later :)

And what's happened to his Cygar?

Terome
2015-12-03, 12:10 AM
And what's happened to his Cygar?

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Am definitely up for more animals. Didn't spot the rabbit. Looking forward to the whale. I wonder what species it is.

Unicron
2015-12-03, 01:07 AM
And what's happened to his Cygar?

Untold amount of time in the Dead Universe probably allowed him time to adjust to not having one, so he doesn't need it anymore.

Red Dave Prime
2015-12-03, 02:46 AM
Couple of things:

1. - I wasn't too keen on the art in digital form but it really shines in the physical. Dont know why but some of it reminds me of other, older comics (not TF ones). There's almost a feel of the Batman Long Halloween stuff to the Verity stuff.

2. - Prowls eye is knocked out in Windblade issue 2 when they bring down devastator. Its nothing specific, just general battle damage. It doesnt get repaired while he is in prison during the next few issues and its still in play when he and Prime have their smackdown. Which....

3. ...is the last time we see him. The issue (42) finishes with him at the feet of Ratbat in all kinds of damage. If this is between 44-45, than its possible its Ratbat thats messing with his head? The silhouette does look like Goldbug though. I'd be inclined to believe the Noisemaze is a mental trap and Goldbug maybe a manifistation of Prowls guilt or something. This series may be as much about his sins as the wreckers. Maybe he will have been in far more control of the Autobots group of psychos than was realised.

4. Kup lost his cygar in the infestation issues - and because of this he was able to see the Zombies and ultimately defeat them. He then is stuck in the dark universe for ages before Nova Prime gets to him so its possible he either outgrew his need for it or Nova re-engineered him as part of the Space Bridge idea.

5. Prowl also controls Kup in the infestation story - its ultimately part of how the good guys save the day. Possibly something stayed with both and kept the link going and the events of Dark Cybertron have caused the link to reopen. Or something. Roche was the artist on Infestation issues 1 & 2 so he would obviously be aware of these events.

6. All the above could have no relevance, I've just had a few whiskeys and felt the need to type TF while my eyes recover from an hour of Transformers:Devastation. That game is flipping lovely.

inflatable dalek
2015-12-04, 03:41 PM
Jazz is presumably not the villain as he's currently still with the Autobots and marginally more stupid than a dog in issues of Ex-RID set after Sins.

Auntie Slag
2015-12-04, 05:30 PM
Dogs are stupid?

inflatable dalek
2015-12-04, 05:33 PM
They're more intelligent than Jazz.


Maybe the dog kidnapped Prowl?

Red Dave Prime
2015-12-05, 12:23 AM
To be fair - its DOC that gets the autobots free. And the autobots are trapped in the black liquid until DOC cuts the bottom from the cell, creating a workable air pocket for him to then cut the exit out.

inflatable dalek
2015-12-05, 10:44 AM
Well I never said the dog rescued Jazz, just that Jazz is clearly more stupid than the dog.

Auntie Slag
2015-12-05, 10:46 AM
Jazz are stupid?

Auntie Slag
2015-12-05, 10:53 AM
So is Verity pregnant with Stakeout's baby? She was clutching her stomach in pain, and it would count as a Micromaster.

But then she was caughing up blood when Arcee had her in the warehouse, or at least that's how I interpreted it. Is she extremely ill because she tried to do a similar Aquitas upload similar to Ironfist? Something that mimics the way Buster uploaded the Creation Matrix in issue 37 of Marvel UK comics in the 80's?

zigzagger
2015-12-15, 07:40 PM
Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers #2 three-page preview by way of iTunes (https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/transformers-sins-wreckers/id1067457786?mt=11).

Full issue out December 30.

Summerhayes
2015-12-18, 06:03 AM
Finally read this, after Royal Mail lost my original copy. Almost enough to make a man go digital...

It is good. I don't have a lot else to add.

Skyquake87
2015-12-20, 09:31 AM
So is Verity pregnant with Stakeout's baby? She was clutching her stomach in pain, and it would count as a Micromaster.

But then she was caughing up blood when Arcee had her in the warehouse, or at least that's how I interpreted it. Is she extremely ill because she tried to do a similar Aquitas upload similar to Ironfist? Something that mimics the way Buster uploaded the Creation Matrix in issue 37 of Marvel UK comics in the 80's?

I dread to think how that'd work, as she's basically got the Cybertronian equivalent of a USB stick...:sick:

inflatable dalek
2015-12-30, 10:56 AM
As a heads up, apparently this (and all other comics, no idea why) is only being released on Thursday/31st physically, but the digital is out as normal today.

Terome
2015-12-30, 01:23 PM
I'm pretty easy to please but all the animal stuff is making me very pleased indeed.

Patapsco
2015-12-30, 02:32 PM
Much better this time around but... there's still this nagging feeling when reading it that panels are missing, or dialogue has been out and out dropped, or speech bubbles have been credited to the wrong character. Arcee is pretty much all over the place, I have no idea what's up with Guzzle or Verity (a plot point which gets dropped pretty quickly) but there a few moments when the story reaches actual clarity before it drops back into its normal rhythm of "speech and dialogue where bits are missing". I hope it reads better in the trade tbh

Red Dave Prime
2015-12-31, 02:29 AM
KInda know what you mean Pandagork but these issue felt better overall in terms of flow and I followed most of it fine on first read. The art feels a little too condensed for me - I love the line work from roche and the colours give it a lovely eerie winter vibe but sometimes the panels feel too small. I'm reading this on a surface pro 4 which has a more than adequate screen size so I don't think that its a digital problem.

Looking forward to the rest of it certainly, but I get the feeling it will all work better in a single read - nothing wrong with that.

zigzagger
2015-12-31, 02:42 AM
Huh. This series is moving in a direction that I wasn't at all expecting coming in. It's so... weird. But I like it.

Quick notes for now:

How warriors cope during peacetime I'm guessing is meant to be a recurring theme of the series. If it is, it couldn't be more evident than in this issue. The Wreckers have a lot of pent up urges, don't they?

Since Kup's arc was understandably truncated in LSOTW, it's nice to see that Roche looks to be following up on it here. Hoping for a resolution this time around :)

Tidal Wave is a whale!

Yep, Mesothulas is Tarantulas. Sure, it could just as well be the usual misdirection and he'll turn out to be Seaspray or Roadblock, but then why go to the trouble planting hints that ony the most hardcore-iest of fans would get trippped up on. So yeah --Tarantulas.

My only real quibble is Arcee's paranoia. It's so unfounded, especially when it's so plainly obvious to everyone else that Verity, Stakeout, or Kup are completely clueless on what's going on. Not sure where it's coming from. Mind, I don't pay a whole lot of attention to XRID, but I don't recall her and Prowl parting ways on that sour of a note.

Then again, she's no more unhinged than Roadbuster or Guzzle (he drank Polar Claw's ****ing blood!). Guess I can deal.

Warcry
2015-12-31, 04:15 PM
Well, this has Beast Wars characters in it so obviously I loved it. Though Polar Claw's pointless death gets the same reaction from me as any other use of an established character as cannon fodder. That being: don't ****ing kill people off before we've had a chance to get to know and care about them! If someone we've never met needs to die, make someone up.

Nice to see Carnivac in IDW stories finally! I was just bitching the other day about how it sucked he'd never gotten used, so thumbs up to Roche on that score.

I have to agree with pandagork that the story feels a bit...choppy in places, as if panels or bits of conversation are missing. At first I thought it was just because I was reading it while my wife was watching something on TV and the baby was playing in the same room, so I kept getting distracted. But if other people felt it too, then obviously not.

I also agree with the people who say that Arcee's behaviour is pretty strange, even by IDW Arcee's standards. I hate their violent psycho Arcee in general, but here it seems to have been ramped up a notch or two, and her over the top hostility to everyone here just comes off as dumb. I'd probably mind it a lot less if the company hadn't created this crazy person by ruining one of the nicest, most friendly Autobots around, though.

It's nice to see the long-tenured Wreckers treated as something other than cool badasses. And while Guzzle doesn't come off as anywhere near as sympathetic as Roche probably thinks he should (because he was the least-interesting newbie in Last Stand and because he doesn't act much like that guy anyway, anymore) Roadbuster's being written marvellously. I love the way that he's trying to justify giving in to his savage instincts even though he's shown a softer, more caring side in the past.

Unfortunately, as much as I'm enjoying parts of the series the overall plot just isn't grabbing me. I think that's partly down to the sheer intensity of the last Wreckers mini -- these guys tore through Overlord and an army of dozens (hundreds?) of Predators, so it's hard to take a half-dozen Beasties seriously as a threat. And secondly, I don't especially care if they succeed because Prowl here is even more stupidly unlikeable than he is in Barber's books (and Barber Prowl is really, really unlikeable). I'm cheering for Tarantulas to suck his brains out more than I'm cheering for Springer to save him.

inflatable dalek
2015-12-31, 04:36 PM
I genuinely have no idea where this comic is going, but the sheer joy of it being so unpredictable (who'd have guessed the Sins sequel would turn into a Beast Wars homage? Or Tidal Wave would be in it?) means it's working for me.

After Barber has just about managed to salvage Arcee over the last few years it is a shame to see her regress here though. And I still don't like Verity (same old problem of middle aged British Isles guys having no idea of how to write American teens*. Is there anyone less likely to be a Grease fan?).




*I know she's not a teen any more, but she's still basically written as a petulant child.

Terome
2015-12-31, 05:12 PM
I can imagine Grease playing non-stop at an orphanage or foster home...

In a rush right now but Tidal Wave is definitely my new favourite. Need to go and investigate this choppiness and depiction of Arcee as I didn't notice it the first time round. One thing I did find is that Scioli might have rubbed off on Roche just a tiny bit.

Denyer
2015-12-31, 06:57 PM
Lovely stuff, enjoying the curveballs.

zigzagger
2016-01-01, 05:00 AM
Unfortunately, as much as I'm enjoying parts of the series the overall plot just isn't grabbing me. I think that's partly down to the sheer intensity of the last Wreckers mini -- these guys tore through Overlord and an army of dozens (hundreds?) of Predators, so it's hard to take a half-dozen Beasties seriously as a threat. And secondly, I don't especially care if they succeed because Prowl here is even more stupidly unlikeable than he is in Barber's books (and Barber Prowl is really, really unlikeable). I'm cheering for Tarantulas to suck his brains out more than I'm cheering for Springer to save him.

I'm partially inclined to agree...?? Though, I can't quite work out if it's my own bias that is influencing my impression of this series or not.

There's no denying the impact that its predecessor had on a lot of readers, including myself. But on it's own, Sins is (so far) a fine read. As far as piquing my interests, all the right elements are there. It's weird, and intriguing, and unpredictable.

I had briefly brought this up in the first issue's thread, but as strange and interesting as Sins is, what seems to be missing for me is a better sense of urgency and momentum. I think you pretty much hit the nail on the head here, in that if the characters don't give a flying **** about Prowl, why should I?

Red Dave Prime
2016-01-07, 12:59 PM
Don't know if anyone has mentioned this but the last time Prowl featured in ex-RID he was a broken mess at the foot of rattrap. I always assumed that Barber would return to this after the current stuff but maybe (given the beast wars link) Rat Trap will have a role in Sins. Maybe all that stuff was just a set up for sins and this could be the conclusion to Prowls main arc. God knows he is not missed in ex-RID.

Patapsco
2016-01-16, 10:01 PM
http://is1.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Publication49/v4/b3/92/1a/b3921a1a-a86f-aee9-d7f8-5aec8733a799/1NOV150400.jpg/960x960bb-85.jpg

http://is2.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Publication69/v4/0c/89/6b/0c896b3e-3c6f-38fb-8e0d-594f62e2a352/2NOV150400.jpg/960x960bb-85.jpg

http://is5.mzstatic.com/image/thumb/Publication69/v4/9b/b0/d3/9bb0d3cf-e47c-8c47-bdc6-33538fb174c8/3NOV150400.jpg/960x960bb-85.jpg

Now this is a newsletter I wish to sign up for

Denyer
2016-01-17, 03:57 PM
Interesting. And also a little Hammer horror.

zigzagger
2016-01-23, 05:30 AM
The full preview is now up at Newsarama (http://www.newsarama.com/27658-meet-a-new-group-of-animal-transformers-in-sons-of-the-wreckers-3-preview.html).

And I peeked.

I mean, sure, we all knew it was going to be Tarantulas, but... kind of excited now.

Squeeee!!!

Also -- while I'm tempted to call Hubcap the 'traitor' (his skills sort of match Tarantulas's description), that would be a bit too obvious. Coincidence too.

Terome
2016-01-27, 03:29 PM
Springer is Prowl's son and he's going to have to beat up his mother, a giant spider, to save him?!

Patapsco
2016-01-27, 07:32 PM
Well this certainly got interesting. I read it at lunch and just read all three issues and the story flows so much better in one sitting. A bit disappointed that there was a lack of animal bots but Carnivac had some great stuff which pales into insignificance next to Tarantulas who might just be IDW's next iconic villain. A superb job by Roche writing him, and I still really like the noir style art work. Can't wait to see how it all ends

inflatable dalek
2016-01-28, 06:42 PM
Well that's starting to solidify nicely, even if I'm still not sure where it's going.

For some reason I've spent most of the last two days rather tired, so more cliff note thoughts than indepth ones:

Tarantulas was very well done. A different sort of villain than Overlord (in a rather on the nose way at times with his "I don't want revenge!" declaration), and one that suits the more thoughtful, introspective character study of Prowl--who may well wind up finishing the series as more of a villain than anyone--and his mistakes.

Let's face it, Prowl has been rather badly handled by IDW since... well the last Wreckers series really. So this managing to turn that around, and indeed making a virtue of his inconsistent characterisation by his flim flam back and forth nature being one of the things that really pisses his former friend off, was impressive. Frankly Prowl arranging the destruction of a Neutral city to get the survivors on side (shades of State Games?) is handled much better here and in less space than in any of the back and forth "Oh I'm evil but it's for the common good" stuff we've had over the last few years despite being basically the same sort of thing.

Out of the key Prowl stuff, the Carnivac/Stakeout scene was the highlight. It did somewhat come out of nowhere (Roche has mentioned on twitter he tried to get IDW to go for 22 pages an issue for Sins and this is a place that need for just a little extra space shows), but there was a sadness to it and it was a smart subversion of the guts and all out action scene deaths Last Stand might have led us to expect.

Presumably this is setting up a heel turn for Carnivac?

Liked the madness of the Noisemaze as well. I'm not sure if Verity's immunity to it turning out to be useless was a clever subversion or a denial of giving her a chance to contribute something only a human could do thus justifying her presence though.

So, Ostaros. The series is clearly setting us up to think he might still be alive and one of the Wreckers, with the twist being Prowl actually told the truth. I'm actually kind of hoping that we'll never find out if he really didn't kill the guy or not, but assuming he is present (and Impactor being all well informed about Tarantulas and the Noisemaze entrance feels like a red herring) I'd go for either:

Hubcap. Explaining his special skills and teaming up with Tarantulas at the end, he wants to reunite with his creator.

Springer... because well, it'd be hard to care if it was any of the others.

Patapsco
2016-01-28, 06:58 PM
comedy option: Getaway. Less comedy option: one of Chromedome's previous conjunx endura

Denyer
2016-01-28, 07:40 PM
Appreciate the BW angle and ideas and hope it won't be hi-and-die, bit less fussed with the inclusion of Barber plot points and Tarantulas could do with more elaboration -- probably due to space, it's been quite tell rather than show.

Would like this to end up with a reveal of lots of artificial sparks being out there. There's nothing that special about creating life from building blocks at their tech level and the made-to-order troops are halfway there already, but it'd be both subversive and less magic-seeming than spark fields.

Patapsco
2016-01-28, 08:22 PM
Also, is it me or should this really be called "Sins Of Prowl"? Because unless it's revealed that Prowl really did order The Wreckers to do everything horrible they did, it's a tad misleading

Denyer
2016-01-28, 08:36 PM
Tarantulas has just dusted off a truth machine (anyone else feel that's less evocative than a machine designed to calculate guilt?) so would guess that's where the next issue is going.

Patapsco
2016-01-28, 08:40 PM
He's got Roadbuster, Arcee and Springer there right? Verity too, but I doubt the machine will work on her. Speaking of, does anyone know what's wrong with her? She was pretty ill for the first two issues

Terome
2016-01-29, 12:19 AM
Yeah, the Wreckers are barely in this. I'm okay with that.

I did love this issue, by the way. Beautifully drawn and full of all sorts of juicy details.

Only part I didn't like was that some of the dialogue was a bit flat on my ear - Impactor's 'You don't get to be leader of the Wreckers...' line in particular.

Loved loved loved the Carnivac scene. Stakeout was genuinely pleased to see him!

inflatable dalek
2016-01-29, 11:08 AM
Hopefully the success of this will convince someone to do a 3P Carnivac to go with my Catilla.

It's nice to finally have a decent Beast Wars comic.

Denyer
2016-01-29, 06:36 PM
If you want a non-mecha one, Wolfang's probably your best bet.

Happy with some mixed Wolfang/Max-B bits personally but would dig something in the vein of Felisaber.

Auntie Slag
2016-01-31, 11:04 PM
Wow, what a way to go; mashed up in another transformers transformation! As a kid I wondered what would happen if Metroplex transformed whilst Blades was idly mooching on the Helipad.

And he seemed like such a nice guy. My first thought for Ostaros was Chromedome, but that probably doesn't make sense.

Something still feels off about this series; jarring banter, pacing or characters simply feeling off-centre from how they were previously. Or more likely five years from now finally I'll click and realise its the best TF story ever for x number of reasons!

Knightdramon
2016-02-01, 08:55 PM
Read it, loved it. Just amazing issue, FULL of story.

Felt a bit sorry for Stakeout. Seems like a no-event ending really, but that's in line with other deaths in Last Stand too.

A lot of nifty exchange between Tarantulas and Prowl. Loved the fact that Prowl's conscience catches up to him every once in a while. It's been quite some time since transformers has had a villain that's not big, brutal or particularly a powerhouse; sometimes you just need a guy so gray he can't tell his black, and said guy needs to just be able to blend in a crowd of other familiar faces.

I'm thinking that Stakeout is Tarantulas' accomplice.

Also speculating that Osteros might be Springer. I was going to say Rewind, but it doesn't fit; Osteros was created early on in the war [Zeta or Optimus's reign]. Prowl seems to have a soft spot for Springer, although I can't remember if he's said to be constructed cold or forged.

Impactor is too old to be Osteros [as he's up and running during Nominus's era]. Chromedome is also up and running at that time.

Ironfist too.

Warcry
2016-02-02, 09:44 PM
Still having a hard time actually caring about the outcome of this -- the story is making Prowl out to be less and less sympathetic by the page, and mostly I just want Tarantulas to eat him. And I have to say, before IDW, Prowl was my favourite Transformer. I mean, shit, the BW version of the character is my avatar! Now I cringe every time I see him on the page. And since the bulk of this issue is centered around showing us, once again, how awful he is...blah. And now he's going to be hooked up to a magic "truth machine" and made to spill the beans on all the things he's done that were even worse than the mass murder of an entire city next issue. Yay? Such a waste of a perfectly good character. I think he's been ruined even more thoroughly than poor Bumblebee (and at least poor Bee had the decency to die after a while!)

And honestly, nothing in this mini has made me care about any of the Wreckers themselves either. If you asked me to describe the other Transformers besides Prowl and Tarantulas based solely on what we've seen in these three issues I'd be hard-pressed. Arcee and Guzzle are unlikeable psychos and everyone else is a prop. Tidal Wave is the only one to show an engaging personality so far, and he's supposed to be an antagonist.

I don't know...if you sat me down and told me the story so far I'd probably say it sounds great! But on the page it just doesn't quite work for me. Maybe I'm just expecting too much from this, but I can't help but think back to LSOTW, where we were after three issues of that and how invested I was. This series isn't bad by any stretch, and it's a fun enough diversion with cool BW characters in it, but I just don't care, at all, about what happens to anyone in it.

Felt a bit sorry for Stakeout. Seems like a no-event ending really, but that's in line with other deaths in Last Stand too.
I didn't really feel like the story made me care about Stakeout, though, the way the previous one had for Rotorstorm or the like. His entire character is "has a past with Verity", but since I (like most readers, I gather?) am indifferent at best to Verity herself, Stakeout (potentially?) dying doesn't really hold that much weight. I was more bothered by Claw Jaw dying.

Similarly, Hubcap apparently proving to be a traitor means nothing to me because the last three issues have done practically nothing to flesh out Hubcap as a character.

And I have to admit, I'm not really feeling Tarantulas here either. He was such a well-established character in the Beast Wars show, with motivations that became increasingly more and more well-defined as his story went on. The character on display here isn't bad by any means but it's not Tarantulas, because the most defining parts of Tarantulas's persona are things that are inextricably rooted in the specifics of the BW mythos (in particular, his role as a double agent and his vendetta against the Vok). He's probably the hardest of the BW crew to reinvent, and Roche certainly gave it his all, but it doesn't work for me.

Also speculating that Osteros might be Springer. I was going to say Rewind, but it doesn't fit; Osteros was created early on in the war [Zeta or Optimus's reign]. Prowl seems to have a soft spot for Springer, although I can't remember if he's said to be constructed cold or forged.
Really, I read that as "Prowl murdered Osteros in cold blood so there were no witnesses to him murdering Tarantulas". We did see him raise his gun in that flashback panel, after all.

Auntie Slag
2016-02-02, 09:58 PM
I reckon this Osteros chap is still alive and kicking somewhere. We see the panel of Prowl raising his gun, but not firing it. So nothing concrete on his fate.

Yeah, its a shame there's so little characterisation of the Wreckers themselves. I went into this hoping for a bit of a Roadbuster showcase, or mention of Rack n' Ruin, Valve, Crest etc. Still, I guess their sins are going to be revealed in the next issue.

I wish they'd replaced Arcee with anyone. Sunstreaker would have been good; a tough guy who is a protege of Kup (I read that somewhere, I hope its IDW-verse relevant).

Death's Head
2016-02-03, 08:02 PM
Theories abound that it's Impactor in the flashback pushing Tarantulas into the portal thingy. Which is why he's got in his 'grave'.

Skyquake87
2016-02-05, 09:16 PM
I have read this and enjoyed it. I think its definitely a story that will read better as a trade or would have been better done as a full on graphic novel. I enjoyed Tarantulas very much, although as Warcry said, the BW TV show cast are very strongly defined to the point where new takes on them feel a bit ...off. (That said, I've enjoyed seeing Beast-era characters done with some flair after IDWs last attempt was somewhat wide of the mark). I did like that Roche has tried something new and the implications of what Tarantulas has created in the more organic forms was aces.

I did find Tarantuals exposition-heavy dialogue took me out of the story a little, like I was reading a lecture, and this where Roche could have used some flashbacks or something to make this stuff sing as it should (although a conceit of Roberts, I do find when he does that stuff it works really well and transcends the cliche). Maybe the page count was a factor and some economizing was needed, but this didn't work as well as it should have for me.

And having read none of Barber's take on Prowl, I'm enjoying the focus on him again. And all that clever stuff what Dalek said on this point (I nodded my head in agreement reading that).

Is Verity pregnant?

Also : loving Roche's art, which is blinding. Burcham's low res colours really suit the overall murk and sickliness of this story.

Death's Head
2016-02-05, 10:11 PM
There's just something I'm really enjoying about the atmosphere of this. Helped along by the art, no doubt, but there's just this aura of death and madness hanging over it; like all the characters are on the brink of losing their minds. I want to say a feeling of unreality, but it feels quite raw and physical as well; characters being mangled, characters drinking blood.

I'm sure it's all quite deliberate, and I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

Denyer
2016-02-07, 04:13 PM
Is Verity pregnant?
Hadn't thought about it like that, but suppose it could fit with what's on-panel so far.

Auntie Slag
2016-02-07, 04:23 PM
Isn't she coughing up blood, though? Or am I imagining it because of her coughing & wheezing fits from the first & second issue?

Denyer
2016-02-07, 06:11 PM
Dialogue's certainly skewed towards her thinking she's dying and that's the trope presented.

Red Dave Prime
2016-04-19, 01:16 PM
So is part four the last week of april? Not set for tomorrow and I can only find april as the release date.

Last issue was Janaury - way to screw up momentum.

Patapsco
2016-04-19, 02:55 PM
So is part four the last week of april? Not set for tomorrow and I can only find april as the release date.

Last issue was Janaury - way to screw up momentum.

I think the artist/writer had some family problems to attend to

Denyer
2016-04-19, 03:48 PM
Yeah, the hold's to accommodate Nick.

I think this is all going to read best in one sitting anyway.

edit: Have seen 27th mentioned in conversation.

Warcry
2016-04-19, 04:39 PM
With a limited-run miniseries like this, I'm surprised they don't wait until the whole thing is done before they start publishing, so that they can guarantee timely releases. You'd have to think a delay like this is going to cost them some sales, because a lot of readers are bound to have forgotten it by now. I mean, I'd sure forgotten it until this thread reminded me!

Patapsco
2016-04-19, 04:58 PM
I'd hazard a guess that whatever it was was pretty unforseen, though I know Roche had problems with Last Stand in terms of art and getting it written, as Guido Guidi stood in on some pages, while Raiz helped out art wise for Maximum Dinobots though I have no idea of the lead time on a comic or whatever. I'd also guess that MtMtE's 49 delay probably had a lot to do with the artist being in Japan plus giving Milne extra time to finish off The Dying Of The Light, though that's just pure speculation on my part

Red Dave Prime
2016-04-19, 05:08 PM
Maybe thats why they went with Milne over Roche for MTMTE as the main ongoing artist. I dont want to bash on the guy, love his art and writing but there seems to be delays with a lot of his stuff. I'm not saying this in a "he should be drawing non stop to feed me more robot stuff!" but more as a general observation. Shit happens and life often gets in the way.

Or kids. Kids get in the way. Thats my experience anyway.

zigzagger
2016-04-22, 11:45 PM
It's here! Finally!

Transformers: Sins of the Wreckers #4 preview courtesy of Newsarama (http://www.newsarama.com/28978-roadbuster-cracks-heads-in-transformers-sins-of-the-wreckers-4-preview.html).

The story continues April 27.

Red Dave Prime
2016-04-23, 12:59 PM
Never noticed how much alike mortilus and impactor are...

Looks good. Bring on the 27th

Unicron
2016-04-23, 03:08 PM
And I'm virtually certain Tarantulus is stringing Hubcap along so he can turn around and kill him once he's done

Death's Head
2016-04-23, 03:38 PM
Or turn him into something nasty. That's not an upgrade in his future, I fear.

zigzagger
2016-04-23, 04:44 PM
A bit fuzzy on exactly when the Roadbuster Affair took place. After AHM? Before that...??

Crazy reveal though. Seriously, what the ****?

Makes me wonder what favor Impactor did for Prowl to let 'Buster off so lightly.
.

Knightdramon
2016-04-23, 07:00 PM
Good call on the timing of the RB affair.

So LSOTW happened 3 years [roughly] after AHM? And the Wreckers were looking for new recruits right around that time, so I'm guessing after AHM.

Unicron
2016-04-23, 07:23 PM
Would the body designs for Prowl and Ratchet help narrow down the time period?

Anyway, it has to be pre-Pova (or at least pre-Aequitas Trials), as Roadbuster was purportedly released as a favor to Impactor. Impactor who'd been locked up on G-9 since the trial.

Patapsco
2016-04-24, 11:34 AM
Is it before or after Roadbuster had the drug induced psychotic rampage that slaughtered all of the Krok's squad from MtMtE?

inflatable dalek
2016-04-25, 08:16 PM
I've been lucky enough to read an advance copy thanks to friends in low places. It is very good.

Really very good.

To the point issue 5 will really have to **** things up for this not to be the TF story of the year by a massive margin.

Red Dave Prime
2016-04-27, 01:32 PM
Very enjoyable stuff here, with some frankly gorgeous art (worth the wait I guess).

Plotwise, it's good but there's a lot of moral gymnastics going on here and some of the character decisions feel ever so slightly odd given what the history of some of this characters is (Prowl in particular) but with sin comes redemption so its not completely failing, just seemed a little off for me.

Story of the year? So far that would probably be fair but 2016 hasn't had much amazingly strong stuff. Ex-RID still flip flops between Good to just messy and MTMTE is strong but there have been cracks recently to accommodate the story that have lessened the overall effect IMO. TF v Gi Joe has turned into the mess it always threatened to. So Sins can probably claim that title easily.

Patapsco
2016-04-27, 01:45 PM
Easily book of the week by a stupidly large margin. At times horrorific, ponderous (in a good way), funny and some great action sequences. I was incredibly doubtful after the first two issues but now I'm fully on board

Warcry
2016-04-28, 05:50 PM
I feel like I should care that Roadbuster and Hubcap got offed, but I just don't. Am I wrong in thinking that these guys just didn't connect the way the likes of Rotorstorm and Pyro did in the last Wreckers mini? Even with their backstory fleshed out this issue, they still felt like ciphers.

Can't say I'm really bothered either way about Verity dying (or not) either.

The Wreckers' obvious disdain for Prowl really made me wonder why nobody put a bullet in his head. If they're only rescuing him to protect what he knows, surely the easiest way to do that is to ventilate his brain module? Especially since they're obviously not opposed to murdering Autobots who've done things they don't like.

Hubcap's story confused me a bit. Having it all thrown at us in the same issue where he died probably did it a disservice. It really didn't have any time to sink in. If we'd known about the massacre, found out later that Roadbuster was involved, and then found out this issue that Tarantulas had orchestrated it, it would have made him a far deeper character. As is, it seems like he just switched sides twice within about five pages of actual story, for reasons that weren't important enough to even hint at before.

Tarantulas is feeling more like Tarantulas now, though, and that's cool. I hope he survives and gets to menace some actually likeable characters in the future.

Overall, I'm enjoying this but I'm still not really invested in it.

inflatable dalek
2016-04-28, 06:38 PM
That panel man.

That panel.


When enough time has past, memes will be made of that panel.






Fantastic stuff from start to finish. Unlike the esteemed Warcry, I thought the Roadbuster stuff was well handled (there are subtle hints setting it up throughout, most notably Impactor being worried when he thinks he's hearing things in issue 1), bleak and dark and strangely heroic as he got some validation at the end.

With that panel.

And God bless the wiki (and I know I only really ever mention the wiki to poke fun at its idiosyncrasies, it does do a lot of good work I shamelessly use in my own writing) which is really struggling with the fact we all jumped to the wrong conclusion (probably even as intentional misdirection) about the Roadbuster Affair being the spine ripping from MTMTE. Some of the "But..." back on forth on twitter was fun (in a sweet way).

Hubcap though I would agree was very rushed and felt like another area where it could have done with those extra two pages.

But that said, the scene between him, Prowl and Impactor was just about perfect. As to why not just kill Prowl, from a pragmatic point of view:

A: Obviously no one knows everything he's been up to, keeping him alive to explain any future weird shit makes sense.

B: He's far too useful in a way Hubcap isn't.

As I've never been a Verity fan I wasn't so bothered about her dying as I probably should have been, but her sense of overwhelming failure and rather sad attempt to strike out before she died felt like the most real the character has ever been (though as with most of her pop culture references, can anyone see her sitting down to watch Hawaii 5-0?). Probably too late in the day to save her for me, but she works as well as she ever has.

Amidst all the good character stuff it's easy to overlook the insane Wreckers Vs Mayhems scenes. Including a subtle and long overdue bit of closure on the Guzzle/Kup thing (actually quite sad, Guzzle no longer minds fighting alongside Kup or being complimented by him because he's off his face) and just insane image after insane image. Oh Tidal Wave, let's have a Titan Returns sad whale robot.

So yeah, barely even touched on a lot of stuff (expect more later), but bonza as Australians say.

Warcry
2016-04-28, 07:28 PM
Fantastic stuff from start to finish. Unlike the esteemed Warcry, I thought the Roadbuster stuff was well handled (there are subtle hints setting it up throughout, most notably Impactor being worried when he thinks he's hearing things in issue 1), bleak and dark and strangely heroic as he got some validation at the end.
I honestly don't even remember any lines Roadbuster had in the first three issues. That's probably a function of the long delay, though. I may well have cared more about him if I'd gone back and reread before jumping into this issue.

But that said, the scene between him, Prowl and Impactor was just about perfect. As to why not just kill Prowl, from a pragmatic point of view:

A: Obviously no one knows everything he's been up to, keeping him alive to explain any future weird shit makes sense.

B: He's far too useful in a way Hubcap isn't.
I'm not so sure that's true anymore. Everything Prowl's done over the last decade has blown up spectacularly in his face and the faces of everyone around him. Especially since war's end, he's been constantly making bad decisions that make situations far worse than they needed to be. I don't think he knows how to exist in a world that isn't defined by open hostility, and he doesn't know how to step aside and let someone else control the levers of power without meddling, either. I think you can make a strong argument that the Autobots would be better off without him.

Likewise, keeping him around to explain weird shit just means he's going to be causing more weird shit behind your back.

Patapsco
2016-04-28, 07:34 PM
I remember asking Roberts about the spine ripping on Twitter and he said yes it was the evening I asked, and deleted the tweet afterwards so who knows

Death's Head
2016-04-28, 10:01 PM
(though as with most of her pop culture references, can anyone see her sitting down to watch Hawaii 5-0?)

"5-0" has long been slang for the cops among (formerly) young degenerates like myself. See also "the Feds". The actual incongruity is that it's British slang (unless someone over the pond wants to correct me?).

Warcry
2016-04-28, 10:15 PM
I've heard that slang tossed around, but usually by people my parents' age -- people old enough to remember Hawaii 5-0.

"Pig" is probably the anti-cop word of choice for younger folk these days, at least where I live.

KingMob
2016-04-29, 12:38 AM
Maybe she just finished watching The Wire.

Flimflammery
2016-05-05, 09:39 PM
"5-0" has long been slang for the cops among (formerly) young degenerates like myself. See also "the Feds". The actual incongruity is that it's British slang (unless someone over the pond wants to correct me?).

It's definitely not just British slang; I'm British but I've seen it used as slang on a few US TV shows - most noticeably The Wire, as KingMob points out.

Just finished reading this issue for the first time, having re-read the other three. Wow. Intense. Really loving where this is going, though I hope Hubcap hasn't died. Really felt for him when he mentioned 'small robots dying in dark corridors' - that's gotta be a reference to Pipes, right?

It had occurred to me, too, that Prowl would seem to be just as obvious a candidate for assassination, if not more so. I think the point is that, for the Wreckers, The Mission is generally paramount, especially when some of them have died on it. I doubt, too, that Springer, Kup, or Roadbuster (at least following the revelations of the issue) would have killed Hubcap, but it's perfectly in character for such a morally compromised arsehole as Impactor.

inflatable dalek
2016-05-06, 02:40 PM
I must really have led a sheltered life not to have heard that slang. Though I'm not sure how it works as an insult, Hawaii 5-0 was cool wasn't it?

Flimflammery
2016-05-06, 03:18 PM
It's not really an insult as far as I can tell, just descriptive. Usually on The Wire it's the cry of the street-level drug dealers and young hoppers echoing back and forth in warning when police are in the area; 'Five-O!' 'Five-O!' 'Five-O!'

You really need to watch The Wire, dude :)

Patapsco
2016-05-06, 08:38 PM
You really need to watch The Wire, dude :)

then read Homicide: A Year On The Killing Streets, watch & read The Corner

Flimflammery
2016-05-06, 09:37 PM
I've watched The Corner. Man that was tough. The books are on the list...

Patapsco
2016-05-06, 09:41 PM
I've watched The Corner. Man that was tough. The books are on the list...

The book, well the ending of one character wrecked me. Absolutely wrecked me

inflatable dalek
2016-06-30, 07:44 AM
It's out!



Such a shame this has been so delayed and thus probably overlooked. It's bloody great.

I'm tired and talked on this at length on the podcast so I'll go into details later.

But just for fun, here's a bit of trivia: Optimus Prime was in the proof copy Nick Roach sent us to use on the Podcast a month (!) ago. He, Kup, Arcee and Prowl were all standing together during Arcee's narration. Which we actually pointed out during the recording this made no sense, with Tom even predicting it might be changed before the final version (sadly all this had to be cut as it would have made no sense without any context), now Prime has been removed, Arcee and Kup moved about and the panel split so it's now Prowl looking at them on his SPACE TV wherever he is.

Just go buy the comic though, it is good. Insanely good. Oh Ironfist.

zigzagger
2016-06-30, 04:17 PM
Gotta run, but so much feels this issue. So much.

I'll need to re-read the whole series for full effect. Reserving final judgement until then. Yes, yes, I know it couldn't be helped, but there was too much time between issues and I need a little refresher.

inflatable dalek
2016-07-01, 03:02 PM
And knowing Nick's personal loss during the writing process adds a great deal of poignancy to how the series deals with death and illness.

I was actually surprised at the extent to which the series came down on the anti-wiki leaks side (though perhaps I shouldn't, Transformers is a military franchise after all). The three main characters who wanted to put the data out (Hubcap, Verity and Tarantulas) there are all revealed to be doing it for selfish reasons and two of them recant whilst Tarantulas himself looses all interest in it when he realises his son is still alive.

Warcry
2016-07-04, 04:02 PM
I still can't work up much enthusiasm for this, I'm sorry to say. The series as a whole just had zero emotional impact on me. Springer came back from the dead and I didn't care. Characters died and I didn't care. Things happened and I didn't care. The ending was muddled and unsatisfactory...and I didn't care. I mean, who am I supposed to latch onto here? The cast are all uniformly horrible people apart from maybe Stakeout, who wasn't around long enough to make me care. And worse, none of them are entertaining because they're all so damned mopey, so I can't even cheer for them to continue being hilariously awful like I do with Whirl over in MTMTE. The closest thing to a fun character was freaking Tidal Wave, who was probably the 15th most important character in the series.

The story was well-conceived, but without anyone in the cast that I can care about the whole thing just felt hollow. It's only fitting that the whole thing ended with them literally tossing Ironfist's corpse in my face, as if in one last, failed attempt to invoke the deeply emotional feeling of the last Wreckers mini. But it was so transparent an attempt that I couldn't do anything but laugh at it.

I'm sad, because I was super excited for another Wreckers mini and really wanted to like it. But this story just didn't work for me, not on any level. I'm glad other folk managed to get more enjoyment out if it than I, though.

inflatable dalek
2016-07-04, 07:34 PM
See, I thought the Ironfist bit was brilliantly twisted, and as with a few bits I could almost hear Nick giggling madly as he wrote it (Terome on the podcast-yeah, I'm a shiller-also suggests that it's just in Verity's imagination which is a neat idea as well).

KingMob
2016-07-06, 01:45 AM
The Roadbuster issue/plot was worth the price of admission. One of the best things in the IDW era.
I could do with losing the font used for Carnivac if he ever shows up again.
Impactor is a good character. The whole setup with Tarantulas and the backstory to the main plot was excellent.
I didn't care so much for the need to have a running fight in the background for most of the issues to give the other characters something to do. The Mayhems were generally unsatisfying as a plot element and took up real estate that could have been used on more character work.
I think it could have been tightened up a lot, even though there was a lot going on. Cut out extraneous stuff and stick to the plot and character beats.

I think on the whole, it was a slightly not-great series for me. I liked many of the developments and much of the tone. But I felt it dragged in unimportant areas and rushed through important ones.
I'm glad it happened though. Roche is a talent.

Tetsuro
2016-07-06, 03:11 PM
(though perhaps I shouldn't, Transformers is a military franchise after all)
Outside of the Baymation movies, I find that hard to believe.

Patapsco
2016-07-06, 03:57 PM
Tried to read it last week but I was in the throes of the worst UTI ever. Tried to start again from the start over the weekend and gave up after issue 2. Probably ain't going to finish it either

Skyquake87
2016-07-06, 07:01 PM
I enjoyed the conclusion, which was, as I expected things going t**s up. I get why Warcry didn't get on with this series - the characters are all difficult to like (never been much of a fan of Kup personally), and my ultimate feeling on the book has been bleak and sickly, but I enjoyed the overall thrust of the series. I think it will read much better collected as its quite a dense, nightmarish story.

The main triumph for me has been someone doing something interesting with the Beast Wars characters. I like the idea of these being the result of Tarantulas bio-engineering and amoral science-play. That was really cool and they were likeable enough for me to care about as supporting characters. Tarantulas himself was aces. That's much better than the RID approach of having Rattrap and Waspinator about for no good reason and having Rattrap as some Jiminey Cricket character to bloody Starscream.

Red Dave Prime
2016-07-07, 09:07 AM
I think Warcry has summed up a lot of problems I had with this comic. I really wanted to like it more than I did and it does some bits really, really well. It's not terrible or a waste of space so like so many other IDW minis. But I just couldnt really get a feel for what was at stake and whereas Last Stand had a clear aim in how it was portraying its characters, I think Sins lacks an overall point. I thought maybe it was that we all have to live with our sins, but thats not the case. Was it that your sins will catch up with you? Dont think that was the case either. At its lowest points the confusing action was matched by the over-wrought dialogue.

I'll also throw to a point someone made a while back (maybe Patapsco) that at times in the early stages it felt like stuff had happened but the reader wasnt really aware of it. Overall, things felt muddled even though the actual plot is quite simple.

There were some great highs - Tarantula was a bit too talky (you could cut down his speeches and still have the same effect imo) but he was an interesting character. The Roadbuster thing was excellent as well. I liked the Guzzle on 'roids aspect although I hated how he was wrapped up. The mayhem crew were decent as well but because you had so many new characters, i felt they got lost quickly and buried under everything else.

The art too was mostly genius stuff. It sold a mood in a way I dont think I've seen since the original spotlight kup. I did feel it felt cramped at times with the style maybe not quite suiting the scale of some of the events. In close quarters it was great but the noize mase bits maybe resembled too much of what they were showing.

Also felt the choice of some characters was off. Prowl again? Fine in a pure nick roche based world but barber should have shut that down given all he had done with prowl over the last two years. Arcee and Kup kept bugging me as I couldnt help thinking about how this all felt as well. And to be honest, I dont think you needed Arcee at all.

I think I'd go with KingMob

I think on the whole, it was a slightly not-great series for me. I liked many of the developments and much of the tone. But I felt it dragged in unimportant areas and rushed through important ones.
I'm glad it happened though. Roche is a talent.

Patapsco
2016-07-07, 11:15 AM
Yeah, it was me that specifically pointed out that there seemed to be bits missing from dialogue, or that the book was referring to something we should be aware of but did not in fact exist. I will say that the art is amazing, and Roche & Burcham deserve all the credit in the world

Red Dave Prime
2016-07-07, 05:54 PM
I do reserve the tight to completely change my opinion on this - plan on reading all five issues tomorrow. Have the house to my myself and an ice cold coke sitting in the fridge. Might even open a pack of ready salted crisps.

Patapsco
2016-07-07, 05:58 PM
I do reserve the tight to completely change my opinion on this - plan on reading all five issues tomorrow. Have the house to my myself and an ice cold coke sitting in the fridge. Might even open a pack of ready salted crisps.

hey, don't go too crazy on our behalf. All things in moderation, and all that

inflatable dalek
2016-07-07, 06:41 PM
Ready salted? You sicken me.

Red Dave Prime
2016-07-07, 07:51 PM
Its a classic man. Walkers red. I'm looking forward to it already. Y'all act like you'd hatin' but I know y'all be playin'.

inflatable dalek
2016-07-08, 12:58 PM
I don't know who you are anymore.

Red Dave Prime
2016-07-08, 01:08 PM
http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00553/walkers_pic_553730a.jpg

Patapsco
2016-07-08, 05:51 PM
Those are Chicken Tikka flavour man!

Death's Head
2016-07-10, 12:31 AM
He likes all the flavours of crisps. Plain...

zigzagger
2016-07-10, 03:25 PM
Chips Crisps aside real quick, recently finished re-reading the whole thing. And I'd probably include myself in the "slightly not-great" category too.

I dig that SOTW is an unconventional Transformers story. It's weird and nightmare-ish. I've mentioned this before, but for me what was missing from SOTW was a strong sense of urgency and momentum, and this nagging feeling pretty much lingered throughout the entire series.

Didn't think it was bad, I liked Sins, but I wanted to love it.

Dug the Roadbuster stuff, though I did feel the Impetus idea was squandered a bit. Felt like Roche was building up to something really special, and I was hoping for similar 'character studies' for the rest of the Wreckers. I wanted to be shown something 'naughty' ;)

I think I'll chalk that up to too many character competing for the spotlight.

Also, was it me or did Tarantulas's plot seem unnecessarily convoluted for some one that (initially, anyway) just wanted to be reunited with their... uh, ex-collaborator? Ex-conspirator? Ex-lover? Tarantulas was a fun mad scientist type, sure, but was a smidgen over-wrought at moments.

Auntie Slag
2016-07-11, 08:08 PM
It was dark and slightly X-Files-y, and I like that. The art was excellent. But I miss the slightly lighter comedy touch from LSotW. You say "What now"? But it did, Overlords japes, bit of light stuff from Rotorstorm, Pyro etc.

And when all the new Wreckers came together and Guzzle said: "Hey, we're just doing what Wreckers do, guy" I loved that, gave him a bit of a Cartman vibe.

But Sins feels hard to judge at the moment, for all I remember I may have been lukewarm about LSotW during the first couple of reads, being so brutal and that, but now its so familiar and excellent. I think the love with Sins may come with time and going through it only as an entire read through. A bit like Last Stand is beer, whereas Sins is like a wine.

Although for a more accurate title it might read: 'Sins of the Prowl, a fair whack of Roadbuster and a portion of Impactor'.

Patapsco
2016-07-26, 05:38 PM
Well I lied about ever finishing it because sitting waiting to be called to be sworn into a jury trial is ridiculously boring (see the chat thread for more adventures), so my honest thoughts are particularly warm.

It's... not great. The art and colouring are amazing but the story just didn't hang together. It read like Tarantulas set this whole thing up purely to get Prowl back for killing "The Bot That Would Be Springer" and chucking him in the noisemaze, and the Aequitas stuff just happened to be bonus material that tied it logically back to Last Stand. The Roadbuster stuff felt unnecessary and forced and out of character even if mini Tarantulas was behind it. All in all it just felt a bit muddled and not all that well thought out.

With all that said, I really want to see where the plot threads left dangling (not to mention baby Tarantulas in Springer's wheelarch) go, especially the Mayhem/Chimeracons/Impactor stuff

Red Dave Prime
2016-07-27, 12:43 AM
With all that said, I really want to see where the plot threads left dangling (not to mention baby Tarantulas in Springer's wheelarch) go, especially the Mayhem/Chimeracons/Impactor stuff

Redemption of the Wreckers: Mayhem Squad by Roche would be very interesting (and worth a much, much better title)

Bumblemus Prime
2016-08-25, 07:30 PM
So I am reading the trade, and have switched from "overall a good story" to feeling like Nick failed as a storyteller...

because OSTAROS is SPRINGER???

Did ANYONE else get that?

Warcry
2016-08-25, 07:44 PM
I saw a few people speculate on that, so it wasn't entirely out of left field for me. But I have to admit that I don't get what Roche was going for with it. I feel like it was supposed to be a statement on...something, or maybe make people see Springer differently somehow. But I'm not sure how it was meant to make us feel. My reaction to it was just a bland "sure, whatever", because it didn't seem to carry all that much meaning.

inflatable dalek
2016-08-26, 02:39 PM
I've put my trade away now, but the name Osatros was a fairly big clue apparently, it has something to do with a God of SPRING.



Groan.

I think it's saying things about parentage really. Springer was put up for adoption by his real dad behind mom's back and raised by Kup and Impactor. I don't think it contradicts anything we know about Springer (it is a bit of a coincidence I suppose he happens to be the guy Prowl calls in) and as a motive for villainy "I lost my son" is a pretty unique one for a TF comic. If Prowl had just been less of a dick husband...

Auntie Slag
2016-08-26, 02:52 PM
You'd be financially well off with Prowl, but would you be happy?

Cliffjumper
2016-09-28, 08:14 AM
Just read in one sitting. Good but not great and to be honest a moderate reinforcement of IDW's belief Roche isn't a writer. Big jumbly bag of ideas and character arcs but no structure or discipline - a real "hey they might not let me do this again so I better put every idea I've got into it".

There were good ideas and sharp dialogue and it clipped along well enough but it's the "lolwut? " bits that have stuck. The Springer revelation where he turns out to be the final identity of some guy we only found out about two issues before and have never met. The brutal obviousness of Guzzle (if you're going to cannibalise an old draft don't publish the bloody thing first). Yet a ****ing nother woobie 1986 Minibot; Wheelie is now the least twatty one, FFS. Cheap shock value with the coffin that lands in front of Springer and Verity just happening to be Ironfist's because wasn't it sad when he died in Last Stand?

Great handle on Prowl, Impactor, Springer, Roadbuster, nice set of bad guys, lots of good ideas that might be great with some follow-up and space to breathe and might feel less first drafty on re-reads. But far too many moments when it tipped from nightmarish to dumb old grimdark. Transformers' DKR2?

Brendocon 2.0
2016-09-28, 08:46 AM
Still not read this. Picked it up in singles but was holding off until I've caught up on the main books, but that doesn't look like it'll be happening any time soon.

Though with Snyder's Batman run ended and my decision to switch to digital for the post-CW2 Marvel stuff, I might have a bit more time available.

Who the **** am I kidding? I'll just end up picking up more Image instead. :/ Either that or I'll decide to watch every WCW pay per view in sequence or something else equally as stupid as my Who project.

Cliffjumper
2016-09-28, 11:57 PM
None of Sin's seeded properly, is it? It should be an arc in an ongoing or something but we're dropped into this big revelation story about people we've never met and mysteries that we didn't know were mysteries. Springer's origin has never, ever been a big mysterious thing. Hubcap's not an ignored nobody because the first time we see him he's handpicked to come and back the Wreckers up on a field mission. Stakeout's not this loyal principled cop because he's up to his neck in it the moment we meet him.

So finding out Springer is actually some science project from a tedious never-before-mentioned super-science-villain who's inexplicably able to keep the Wreckers busy with his technobabble has zero impact because we didn't know Tarantulas existed four issues before let alone that he'd made himself an artificial Transformer.

So finding out Hubcap is this bullied little arsewipe has no impact because we've only got his whining to go on and it doesn't remotely scan with the way anyone treats him even after we find out he's the world's limpest traitor ever ("Don't betray us Hubcap"/"I spent my whole life planning this with an evil robot spider telling me to but yeah alright"). He should have been in the background perenially since as close to the start of the IDWverse for it to even half work (considering both Roche and Roberts just assign whatever personalities they like to whatever robot is nearest he should have been Searchlight).

Stakeout shows up and dies almost immediately chasing a ****ing robot rabbit into a whale having established that he's basically Streetwise. If that had any sort of emotional impact on anyone unless the original crap lanky Micromaster was your only companion for five years of being locked in a basement then they're indoctrinated by this sort of false tragedy IDW have been tube-feeding readers since the early days to a startling degree.

All of this is forced by the format of a limited series for sure. But then there was always the option of not just hurling loads of revelations at the thing; the most annoying thing is the whole Prowl/Aequitas plot is actually pretty organic even if it shits all over that gloriously ambiguous frame that topped off LSotW so perfectly (it's the equivalent of Inception having a credits scene where Nolan stands there holding a giant idiot board saying "HE'S STILL DREAMING!!!") but there's just so much other manipulative garbage thrown in because, hey, didn't futile deaths, overpowered villains and pathetic weaklings getting screwed over by The System go down well the first time?

Plus that Ironfist corpse scene is even more tawdry and desperate on a second reading. And you can hear Linkin Park fading in on that last page can't you?

Brendocon 2.0
2016-09-29, 09:15 AM
Read Fear Agent

Red Dave Prime
2016-09-29, 08:54 PM
None of Sin's seeded properly, is it? It should be an arc in an ongoing or something but we're dropped into this big revelation story about people we've never met and mysteries that we didn't know were mysteries. Springer's origin has never, ever been a big mysterious thing. Hubcap's not an ignored nobody because the first time we see him he's handpicked to come and back the Wreckers up on a field mission. Stakeout's not this loyal principled cop because he's up to his neck in it the moment we meet him.

So finding out Springer is actually some science project from a tedious never-before-mentioned super-science-villain who's inexplicably able to keep the Wreckers busy with his technobabble has zero impact because we didn't know Tarantulas existed four issues before let alone that he'd made himself an artificial Transformer.

So finding out Hubcap is this bullied little arsewipe has no impact because we've only got his whining to go on and it doesn't remotely scan with the way anyone treats him even after we find out he's the world's limpest traitor ever ("Don't betray us Hubcap"/"I spent my whole life planning this with an evil robot spider telling me to but yeah alright"). He should have been in the background perenially since as close to the start of the IDWverse for it to even half work (considering both Roche and Roberts just assign whatever personalities they like to whatever robot is nearest he should have been Searchlight).

Stakeout shows up and dies almost immediately chasing a ****ing robot rabbit into a whale having established that he's basically Streetwise. If that had any sort of emotional impact on anyone unless the original crap lanky Micromaster was your only companion for five years of being locked in a basement then they're indoctrinated by this sort of false tragedy IDW have been tube-feeding readers since the early days to a startling degree.

All of this is forced by the format of a limited series for sure. But then there was always the option of not just hurling loads of revelations at the thing; the most annoying thing is the whole Prowl/Aequitas plot is actually pretty organic even if it shits all over that gloriously ambiguous frame that topped off LSotW so perfectly (it's the equivalent of Inception having a credits scene where Nolan stands there holding a giant idiot board saying "HE'S STILL DREAMING!!!") but there's just so much other manipulative garbage thrown in because, hey, didn't futile deaths, overpowered villains and pathetic weaklings getting screwed over by The System go down well the first time?

Plus that Ironfist corpse scene is even more tawdry and desperate on a second reading. And you can hear Linkin Park fading in on that last page can't you?

Y'know, I dont tend to agree with you as a matter of course, however you hit so many nails there right on their heads that I am considering getting you to assemble the wardrobe we just got.

Honestly SIns, I tried to love you, I really did. But Art and Mayhem Squad aside, all that deep monologuing from Spider Boss did not hide the fact that this was a series that was unlovable. Characters I did not like, feeding into arcs I didn't like with a reveal and resolution that I did not like either. Sadly, this wont be a hardback I'll be buying. I'd still give Roche another shot - this aside his three previous work has been quality (I'm going by LSOTW, Spotlight Kup and AHM:the only good one). Plus the new art style was cracker.

But feck it Cliffjumper, when you're right, you're right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd0stUFsZ-o

Cliffjumper
2016-09-29, 10:03 PM
Oh God yes Roche is still worth a read for any upcoming; hopefully what seems to be a lukewarm reaction will see that he doesn't get himself into this sort of a mess again. I do feel for him - sequels to acclaimed miniseries are a hard enough business at the best of times and have caught out some of the absolute greats. But at the same time that doesn't give a free pass and I think the biggest Sin might be the sullying of a couple of bits of Last Stand, notably the destruction of the Aequitas data slug and the cheap use of Ironfist's body as an emotional trigger.

Patapsco
2016-09-29, 10:23 PM
I think it should also be noted that Nick had a family bereavement in the middle of the run. Can't help but think that that might have been playing on his mind during the creation of the series.

As for the series itself, my initial point still stands: it feels like being dropped into a box set four episodes in, with no "previously on..." flashback to fill in the blanks

Denyer
2016-09-29, 11:29 PM
All fair points, and particularly reading it with the background notes in the trade plus in one sitting I found it worked better than when in singles the most meaty issue was mid-way through the arc. More like fan-fiction than LSOTW (in the kitchen sink approach) and full of difficult second album type stuff but will check out future stuff for definite.

Cliffjumper
2016-09-30, 04:00 AM
I think it should also be noted that Nick had a family bereavement in the middle of the run.

No. Without wanting to sound like any more of a bastard than I do usually no, no it shouldn't. You know Chris Sarracini's circumstances when he was writing Prime Directive? Eric Holmes' during Megatron: Origin? Mike Costa's? Michael Bay's? Chuck Austen's when he was running X-Men into the ground? No. We've been given a comic, we evaluate that. Part of the reason so many of you are so difficult to take seriously is that through Twitter and whatever you're far too close to the creative team of books like this and MTMTE, giving them huge leeway you don't afford to other titles.

Naturally it's sad if Roche lost a family member during the process but unless you're willing to factor that in for every other piece of media you consume until you know otherwise it does not matter to the quality of the end result.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-09-30, 06:27 AM
Aye. The plot would still have been laid out in advance even if the scripts weren't finished.

Plus we all know what happened to Jeph Loeb before he erote Ultimatum, and while it's accepted as an explanation, nobody uses it as an excuse.

Patapsco
2016-09-30, 06:35 AM
No. Without wanting to sound like any more of a bastard than I do usually no, no it shouldn't. You know Chris Sarracini's circumstances when he was writing Prime Directive? Eric Holmes' during Megatron: Origin? Mike Costa's? Michael Bay's? Chuck Austen's when he was running X-Men into the ground? No. We've been given a comic, we evaluate that. Part of the reason so many of you are so difficult to take seriously is that through Twitter and whatever you're far too close to the creative team of books like this and MTMTE, giving them huge leeway you don't afford to other titles.

Naturally it's sad if Roche lost a family member during the process but unless you're willing to factor that in for every other piece of media you consume until you know otherwise it does not matter to the quality of the end result.

I said "Noted", not using it as an excuse. And Roche actually announced what had happened in the middle of the run, not after it had finished. And I didn't give it leeway anyway, allow me to quote myself:

"It's... not great. The art and colouring are amazing but the story just didn't hang together. It read like Tarantulas set this whole thing up purely to get Prowl back for killing "The Bot That Would Be Springer" and chucking him in the noisemaze, and the Aequitas stuff just happened to be bonus material that tied it logically back to Last Stand. The Roadbuster stuff felt unnecessary and forced and out of character even if mini Tarantulas was behind it. All in all it just felt a bit muddled and not all that well thought out."

inflatable dalek
2016-09-30, 02:08 PM
It's good to have context for the delays at least.

Cliffy actually liked this more than I thought he would. He keeps defying my expectations...


[I don't have the trade to hand so all quotes are paraphrases]


The Stakeout thing has actually grown on me with each rereading, originally I was very much "That's a thing that could have done with the old 22 page issues to let it breath" but I really came round by the trade and actually might have the Carnivac scene with him as my favourite bit of the whole series.

I do get it's a very--arguably ridiculously--melodramatic series and if it doesn't get you on board quickly then things like Ironfist or Roadbuster's secret horror (I love the line in issue one where he says some throwaway comments about his cadets and Impactor is just "Well, yes") will probably leave you cold, but I wound up really enjoying how unashamed it was to just embrace all these extreme and slightly nuts ideas.

Not sure it really ruins the end of Last Stand, oddly I don't think it ever firmly says what happened to the slug Prowl had (did he crush it or not?), the one featured here is the duplicate the Wreckers trade already made clear Verity had in the bonus comic.

No problem here with the Springer thing either, it doesn't actively contradict anything and him having lived is a much more interesting idea than the been there done that original idea that Prowl would kill an innocent for his own ends. Fairly well seeded through the story itself as well (Kup and Impactor's "Someone must have been looking after him" exchange for example).

I must admit I didn't expect the Guzzle thing to be addressed at all, I failed to spot that in the buddy scenes between him and Kup it's Kup doing all the banter lines...

Cliffjumper
2016-10-04, 08:19 PM
I said "Noted", not using it as an excuse. And Roche actually announced what had happened in the middle of the run, not after it had finished. And I didn't give it leeway anyway, allow me to quote myself:

#rackattack


The Stakeout thing has actually grown on me with each rereading, originally I was very much "That's a thing that could have done with the old 22 page issues to let it breath" but I really came round by the trade and actually might have the Carnivac scene with him as my favourite bit of the whole series.

Don't be sad, either they can find an alternate universe where everyone but Stakeout's dead or his body can be used for cheap emotional manipulation in Dark Death Pain Urgh of the Wreckers.

slightly nuts ideas

Actually found it all crushingly boring, even the Big Moping Whale. The Roadbuster thing especially was terrible; the actual crime was pretty "eh" and then it all gets fobbed off on the oh-so-crazy villain meaning bleh whatever hey look his head's blown up Lol Nick you so sick mofo sadface. It's as craven as Furman letting Beachcomber off the hook in the Blaster Spotlight and sticks out like a sore thumb in a comic where we otherwise learn every other character is an unrepetnant piece of shit we want to die.

Not sure it really ruins the end of Last Stand, oddly I don't think it ever firmly says what happened to the slug Prowl had (did he crush it or not?), the one featured here is the duplicate the Wreckers trade already made clear Verity had in the bonus comic.

No problem here with the Springer thing either, it doesn't actively contradict anything and him having lived is a much more interesting idea than the been there done that original idea that Prowl would kill an innocent for his own ends. Fairly well seeded through the story itself as well (Kup and Impactor's "Someone must have been looking after him" exchange for example).

How can something be seeded when the issue is raised and dealt with in a five-issue mini? Especially one with so many jumbled plot threads hanging around with lots of other shit character arcs getting in the way? And yes, it is probably better than Prowl killing him. But let's not think that makes it in any way good. Again, it's a plotline for a regular series or a tight sequel - establish Tarantulas (I do like the way everyone called him that once we saw he looked just like Tarantulas from Beast Wars even though he just named it himself on the spot and everyone knew him by his old name for waaaay longer) and his projects and the mystery of what happened to his experiment. Let mystery brew, tumblr posts be made, tweets to be retweeted. Reveal later.

I must admit I didn't expect the Guzzle thing to be addressed at all, I failed to spot that in the buddy scenes between him and Kup it's Kup doing all the banter lines...

TBH it was blindly obvious that Impactor was going to kill him from the moment he was locked in the box, almost certainly for him going blood-crazy - felt it was so obviously nineties Image grimdark (the Polar Claw thing!) but we were going to get a swerve - like the way Last Stand backed away from the area with Kup.

Third re-read I noticed Arcee was in it.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-10-04, 08:29 PM
Tarantulas (I do like the way everyone called him that once we saw he looked just like Tarantulas from Beast Wars even though he just named it himself on the spot and everyone knew him by his old name for waaaay longer)

Remember when Swindle jokingly called Hot Rod "Rodimus" and suddenly that was his name and even when he went to another planet the Transformers there called him it too? No? Well repressed, good sir.

Cliffjumper
2016-10-05, 12:52 PM
Or when Shane McCarthy called Octane 'Tankor' and there was a fatwah issued and then James Roberts called Trailbreaker 'Trailcutter' and a group of people slightly smaller than Wigan's average home attendance declared him the all-time king of writing?

inflatable dalek
2016-10-05, 08:22 PM
How can something be seeded when the issue is raised and dealt with in a five-issue mini?

In exactly the same way the POVA stuff was seeded into and dealt with in the equally packed Last Stand? If you were going to have a problem with one I'd have thought it would be that considering it's the one that's more likely to have come up before (it's easy to see Prowl bringing it up in Spotlight Kupn during his chat with Springer), especially as more characters who've had roles in prior IDW stuff knew about that rather than it being a close secret between Impactor (who's post war appearances are basically Last Stand a few standing around in the background cameos in flashbacks) and Prowl.

Plus of course there's nothing quite as chunky here as one of the few bum notes in Last Stand, the "Hey, do you remember Impactor and that thing?" moment 30 seconds before Impactor turned up.

I actually thought the plotting was tighter here than Last Stand which did have those dangly bits that got lost in rewrites.

(I do like the way everyone called him that once we saw he looked just like Tarantulas from Beast Wars even though he just named it himself on the spot and everyone knew him by his old name for waaaay longer)

Prowl and Impactor knew him from before, and I think Prowl's the only one to have much chance to call him by any name isn't he?

On the general name thing of the last few posts... It's become such a thing now (well, I suppose it always was to a certain extent, "I feel like a Gold Bug!" indeed) for Transformers to go "And today I'm called this!" and for eveyone to go with it that it's easier to roll with it than when McCarthy was obliged to do it.

Indeed, wasn't part of the confusion at the time people not being sure if Tankor and Octane were supposed to be the same person?

Despite being a clunky toy advert the Trailcutter thing feels relatively smooth because it's in a book where identity is a massive theme and the majority of the cast have gone by other names (even sometimes changing for fairly frivolous reasons, everyone at the Institute having brain based nicknames like Chromedome that wound up sticking) or personas. So it's a meh moment but not a story taking out of one because it still fits what the book is trying to do.



TBH it was blindly obvious that Impactor was going to kill him from the moment he was locked in the box, almost certainly for him going blood-crazy - felt it was so obviously nineties Image grimdark (the Polar Claw thing!) but we were going to get a swerve - like the way Last Stand backed away from the area with Kup.

Third re-read I noticed Arcee was in it.[/QUOTE]

Cliffjumper
2016-10-05, 10:30 PM
In exactly the same way the POVA stuff was seeded into and dealt with in the equally packed Last Stand?

No, in nothing like the same way; that grew organically via the gradual stripping away of Ironfist's fanboy belief that the head of an Autobot death squad would be squeaky clean and is based on actual character development and gradual reveals rather than cheap gestures.

Plus of course there's nothing quite as chunky here as one of the few bum notes in Last Stand, the "Hey, do you remember Impactor and that thing?" moment 30 seconds before Impactor turned up.

Of course! That one contrivance suddenly completely reverses my opinion on both series, and it's not like there was a totally plausible reason why Impactor was mentioned what with his biggest fan being on the way to the place he was being imprisoned and Impactor escaping for a totally justified reason as well. I mean it's not like in real life anyone ever actually mentions someone and unexpectedly walks into them anyway, let alone if they're totally relevant to the reason they're out walking anyway.

Prowl and Impactor knew him from before, and I think Prowl's the only one to have much chance to call him by any name isn't he?

And? Is that not a big enough reach? I'm not even sure if there's a toy out, which just makes it seem like Roche doesn't trust his own character to stand on his own eight overpowered legs without piggybacking a popular BW character.

Indeed, wasn't part of the confusion at the time people not being sure if Tankor and Octane were supposed to be the same person?

I don't think so, I think the confusion at the time was that people genuinely thought the guy who had just curled out Maximum Dinobots was actually going to come up with something better. There was a lot of confusion about lots of things at the time.

inflatable dalek
2016-10-07, 04:34 PM
No, in nothing like the same way; that grew organically via the gradual stripping away of Ironfist's fanboy belief that the head of an Autobot death squad would be squeaky clean and is based on actual character development and gradual reveals rather than cheap gestures.

And this grows organically out of the already well established relationships Springer had with Kup, Impactor and Prowl who were effectively the three most important (albeit not always in a welcome way with Prowl) influences on his life. Sins solidifies and expands on that to make it an "Adopted parents/real parents" thing and brings Tarantulas in as the absent mother to take it all out into the open. I'm not sure how that isn't grown out of established stuff, I mean sure, prefer one to the other but it's clearly very intentionally one of the few parts of Sins structured to be like part of Last Stand (even down to unreliable narratives).



Of course! That one contrivance suddenly completely reverses my opinion on both series, and it's not like there was a totally plausible reason why Impactor was mentioned what with his biggest fan being on the way to the place he was being imprisoned and Impactor escaping for a totally justified reason as well. I mean it's not like in real life anyone ever actually mentions someone and unexpectedly walks into them anyway, let alone if they're totally relevant to the reason they're out walking anyway.

Well if we're going to play the realism card, people find out their family has secrets or they have unexpected relatives all the time as well. I've had the sitcom variant of Springer/Tarantulas happen to me in real life when someone I've known for about ten years turned out to be a first cousin who could fill me in on all sorts of stuff that happened to my Grandfather after he fell off the radar. By that score there's nothing unlikely about what happens here.



And? Is that not a big enough reach? I'm not even sure if there's a toy out, which just makes it seem like Roche doesn't trust his own character to stand on his own eight overpowered legs without piggybacking a popular BW character.

It just seems a really odd complaint when it really barely applies to any of the characters in the book (and the main one, Prowl, is the sort of guy who'd call people by their proper name exactly) and it's a fictional world where regular quickly adapted to name changes are a thing already.And thinking on it, as a species of shape shifters who constantly alter and update their bodies it's not a massive reach they just roll with name changes as well.


Ohhhhhh, and thinking on Brend's Hot Rod/Rodimus point (though I've no idea if Costa intended this, I'd lean towards not but it's just a bit of silly speculation): One of the general rules of More Than Meets the Eye is everyone is speaking Cybertronian and the language is being put through a "Tardis style" translation for the reader's benefit that adapts and alters all the colloquialisms to appropriately English ones as well (basically a handwave for everyone being obviously British and using expressions most of them shouldn't know. Might seem strange to have as a rule as it's fairly standard for dramas set in foreign countries/aliens to work the same way, but coming after years of comics where everyone is hanging on Earth and thus actually speaking English the clarification this is no longer the case despite appearances probably helps).

So when Rodimus is off on all those planets everyone is actually calling him "Xqfgyaerguilgh" but for our eyes it's just made his current name.

No?

Actually Cliffy, knowing your general disdain for her previously, what did you think of Verity this time out? Tbh I thought her continued presence would have been the thing that would have annoyed you the most.

Brendocon 2.0
2016-10-08, 12:25 PM
So when Rodimus is off on all those planets everyone is actually calling him "Xqfgyaerguilgh" but for our eyes it's just made his current name.

No?

No, because his name changed and they're calling him his new one.

If they were still calling him his old one it would translate for our eyes as his old one. Because they're different. Because it changed.

I find it's easier to chalk down to Mike Costa not really caring and just using it to pay the bills until Marvel let him write a fourth-tier Spiderbook.