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inflatable dalek
2017-01-02, 08:58 PM
The Return of Doctor Mysterio!




Well, finally watched this...

Better than I thought it was going to be tbh. Looked surprisingly cheap and I'm not sure why they didn't just use the Slitheen as the zip headed alien duplicate's plan was basically a rerun of Aliens of London anyway ( In fact, considering the fank wank opening explanation for why the Doctor can go to New York again I'm surprised they didn't go as far as pointing out the similarity) but it flowed along well enough and had some good gags. And I actually liked Matt Lucas.

It did seem a bit odd to be doing such a dedicated spoof of a nearly forty year old movie when you'd have thought the current superhero craze would provide fresher material (and make more sense for kids). Indeed, the guy playing the Ghost seemed to agree as he was doing doing a Christian Bale impression when in costume.

Why did he need both glasses and a mask anyway?

And of course, getting a job as the live in nanny to the woman who doesn't know you have a thing for her is more creepy than romantic.

Oh, and whilst it makes sense in fiction for the Doctor to be upset about River still, it was a bit old business in feeling.

Skyquake87
2017-01-02, 09:04 PM
I watched this and meant to post about it earlier! Then I forgot.

Enjoyable funny nonsense, with a very evident Lois And Clark vibe (at least that's what I got, rather than the Donner films). Matt Lucas was good, wasn't he? Be interesting to see how his character develops (and fingers crossed he's not part of some mystery the Doctor has to solve). Wasn't sure about the River stuff myself either - I suppose it was felt it needed to be addressed since that was the last time we saw The Doctor.

Brendocon 2.0
2017-01-02, 09:07 PM
Why did he need both glasses and a mask anyway?

Because the idea that somebody becomes unrecognisable simply by removing their specs is, always has been and always will be irretrievably stupid?

inflatable dalek
2017-01-02, 09:27 PM
Amussingly, from what people in GB are saying,the opening is set after Lois found out Clark was Superman in the comics (apparently it's actually set whilst Superman was dead!). Not a problem if you assume Grant isn't really a comics fan but just had a couple of old issues laying about, but it made me smile. The John Bryne comic he flicks through was a composite of at least two, possibly three issues as well. I guess finding one comic with both Superman and Clark in it was a bit too difficult?

Brendocon 2.0
2017-01-02, 09:42 PM
Probably came down to finding pages with panels that worked for blah blah I don't know.

Stop posting at other boards. And bring back Knightdramon from wherever you've put him. I can't be reporting MP/3P news all by myself FFS.

Heinrad
2017-01-02, 09:47 PM
I watched it today. I liked it. Not the greatest story, but fun. Part of me gets the feeling the Doctor's speech towards the end was more Moffatt saying goodbye.

My question is, why did he wait so long to do the superhero thing?

Hound
2017-01-03, 03:30 AM
Ah, thanks for the reminder that I'd needed to watch this. I'd forgotten that I'd missed it on Christmas and had meant to watch it last week but had gotten sidetracked by life and stuff.

I enjoyed it quite a bit. Not that it was the best or anything but it was fun and appropriately quirky.

Skyquake87
2017-01-03, 07:52 PM
My question is, why did he wait so long to do the superhero thing?

In DWM (what I have now read. mostly), when asked about this, Moffat states that its because he likes Superhero films to watch, but he couldn't write them (insert your own joke here). He mentions that like Brendocon, there's something very silly that no one can tell Clark Kent is Superman just because he wears glasses. Turns out Lois And Clark was an influence on this, and it was relationship stuff which he remembered he was pretty god at with Coupling, so managed to find a way to write it.

Cyberstrike nTo
2017-01-04, 01:04 PM
I watched it today. I liked it. Not the greatest story, but fun. Part of me gets the feeling the Doctor's speech towards the end was more Moffatt saying goodbye.

My question is, why did he wait so long to do the superhero thing?

My guess is that Moffatt might trying to get a writing gig on of the DC and/or Marvel TV shows since both companies have used a lot of Doctor Who and Sherlock actors. Maybe he's thinking that if writes a superhero story they might want to hire him as a writer once his last series is over. He knows a lot of the actors that they are currently using or have used in the past.

Marvel has used Christopher Eccelstone, David Tennat, Karen Gillian, and Jenna Coleman in various movies and TV shows. As well as Sherlock stars Benedict Cumberbatch and Martin Freeman.

DC is currently using John Barrowman and Arthur Darville, on Legends of Tomorrow and Alex Kingston has popped up on Arrow a few times.

As too the special I thought it was pretty good, I Peter Calpadi when not overly serious and I actually liked Matt Lucas which was surprised me and I liked the Ghost and hope he returns of even gets a spin-off series. I honestly didn't realize how much I missed Dr. Who till the build up to the 2016 Christmas special and then I started watching the Matt Smith Christmas shows on Amazon Video and it was like hanging with old friends for Christmas.

So yeah I can't wait to see the new series!

inflatable dalek
2017-01-08, 07:35 PM
I hadn't really paid any attention to the series 10 trailer, but there's a blink and you'll miss it appearance from a faithfully recreated very silly Tom Baker monster....


Movellans! One is chucked into a wall during the Dalek bit, silver wig, white jumpsuit and cheap gun all present and correct. Presumably it's just a fun cameo, I can't see them not totally reinventing their look if they were going to play a big role. They looked stupid at the time... Presumably they were easier to do than Mechanoids.

Scotimus Prime
2017-01-28, 10:05 AM
Feeling a bit sad today

R.I.P. John Hurt, Gallifrey Falls No More
http://pm1.narvii.com/5985/6683fc114603781d800e2b2f15fc60af9c0800f1_hq.jpg

Brendocon 2.0
2017-01-30, 10:16 PM
Confirmed that Capaldi's leaving at Christmas. Not really a surprise. And lets Chibnall have a clean slate.

Scotimus Prime
2017-01-30, 10:32 PM
Yup...here's info on that
http://screenrant.com/doctor-who-peter-capaldi-leaving-season-10/?utm_source=SR-FB-P&utm_medium=Social-Distribution&utm_campaign=SR-FB-P&view=list

inflatable dalek
2017-02-03, 07:42 PM
Confirmed that Capaldi's leaving at Christmas. Not really a surprise. And lets Chibnall have a clean slate.

Yeah, shame he basically lost a season though (hmm, come to that, the last three Doctors all basically missed one year's worth of episodes for various reasons. How random).

I will be pleasantly surprised if the BBC let Chibnall go for anyone but a David Tennant II type as part of the "Make it like wot it used to be" approach (Ben Whishaw would probably get my vote out of those).

Mind, I've been reading claims Chibers schedule means his first season won't be on to next Autumn. Which cheerfully undoes the only good thing about the gap year, letting them get back to the Easter start the show does better in.

Scotimus Prime
2017-03-13, 09:41 PM
Here's a new series 10 trailer that just dropped
https://youtu.be/s2xOQK_BLIg

inflatable dalek
2017-04-14, 01:25 PM
It's back tomorrow!

I'm not sure how representive of general feeling my circle of peers is, but I'm not finding many folk who give a ****. Most seem more interested in who the next Doctor is going to be than in this year. Hell, I've even had a few bemoan the series is tired and needs to take a break!

Skyquake87
2017-04-14, 07:11 PM
I'm excited! I'm really looking forward to it. Been watching all the trailers and build up stuff floating about online which is the first time I've bothered with all that.

I'm not surprised that there's folk who aren't so interested anymore - its 12 years since the show came back(crikey!) and that's a long time to sustain peoples interest - especially for Sci Fi stuff and especially in the UK where our viewing habits in the last 20-30 years have been largely limited to soaps, medical dramas and endless detective/ police shows. The brief burst of SF/ horror that UK TV had is pretty much over, leaving Who the only game in town. In age of superhero stuff flying the flag for SF, Who does seem oddly out of place now. But I like that!

Denyer
2017-04-17, 08:18 PM
Decent. Much less annoying and overwritten than Clara.

Skyquake87
2017-04-19, 08:22 PM
Yup. Bill feels much more...real. I like her. I liked the watery alien thingy thing. Whilst the alien space ship gone a bit wonky is one of Nu-Who's cliches, it did make me think of Waters Of Mars and Ice Warriors and stuff, so wonder if this'll be followed up later in the season.

Loved the cheeky Movellan cameo - I like that these older designs are being allowed to stand up as they were. Looking forward to seeing the original Cybermen and was excited to see a flash of The Master in the trailer (I liked John Simm's Master).

inflatable dalek
2017-04-21, 02:19 PM
Thought it was better than the sum of its parts. Said parts being a mish mash of ideas Moff has already done (or in the case of mimicked dialogue, RTD had already done in Midnight) slightly less well than he'd done them previously and pointless old continuity references for the old fans. Did a key decision of the Doctor's have to be influenced by a photo of a character last seen 34 years ago (or as she looked in the picture, more than 50)? Did we need a lingering close up of the old sonic screwdrivers (apparently they were the commercially available toys as well, so does that make it product placement?)?

Even the Movellans, which as a sad old fan I loved, were the sort of thing that's too backwards looking. There was nothing as bad as Davros watching his Who DVD collection or someone thinking Rassilon was interesting enough in and of himself any dodgery old ****er could play him, but it was very tired.

Positively though, Capaldi was on fine form, Bill made a strong first impression as a likeable character (only the overdone "Bigger on the inside" thing felt forced, if the characters are pointing out its taking a long time for her to get the point it's not a good sign) and the Lucas was good fun. The Doctor having a butler feels like an obvious idea in retrospect and it's working well across the two episodes so far. Plus, it's a new idea!

inflatable dalek
2017-04-28, 09:08 PM
I thought Smile was quite good for three quarters of the length (despite being hamstrung by a precredits sequence that explained the mystery that was then very carefully explored) and had a nice spooky atmosphere. But it really felt like it fell apart at the end, from Ralph Little being an idiot (was he planning to shot the entire building?) to the Doctor suddenly being fine with unwilling mind wipes despite the end of last week and a really odd metaphor. The robots aren't the indigenous population, they're immigrants like the humans.

Also, in a forced attempt at continuity we get firmly told these aren't the last humans, but at the end everyone acts like these are the last humans.

Still, up till that ending it was really well done.

Brendocon 2.0
2017-05-01, 08:05 PM
Have caught up on this series now (sorry, I have a life) and it's weird how it doesn't feel in the slightest bit Moffaty. Really weird.

Even though at the same time we've had not-quite-retreads-but-riffs-on The Lodger, the Happiness Patrol and the Beast Below.

And next week is Ghost Light/Fendahl/Hide/fun gothic horror.

Have enjoyed.

Heinrad
2017-05-02, 01:33 AM
Quite enjoying the series so far.

Skyquake87
2017-05-02, 07:28 AM
Me too! It feels a bit lighter, like someone's opened a window to let some fresh air in. The retreads haven't bothered me so much. The Smile one reminded me of the Hand-bots, but I liked that it made the point that technology isn't inherently evil. The humans waking up at the end wasn't necessary and Ralf Little was wasted. Enjoyed Thin Ice, some good dialogue and lines and a solid story. I like Bill very much and Pearl Mackie is ace.

Skyquake87
2017-05-14, 09:04 PM
Thin Ice was passable... Oxygen was really good! Supporting cast were great, and the stuff in Space at the start was very impressive. I liked the set design and whatnot on this one too.

inflatable dalek
2017-05-19, 07:26 PM
Caught up!

Knock Knock felt a bit of waste of David Suchet, and the spooky haunted house feels very done by new Who.

Oxygen was very good, but again, space suits with corpses in is something Who has done already.

Saturday's at least looks like new territory for the show, though isn't it about a decade too late for a Dan Brown pisstake?

Skyquake87
2017-05-19, 08:38 PM
...I'd forgotten about the house one. I liked it, but everyone being magically alive after they'd been consumed was a bit rubbish.

Skyquake87
2017-06-12, 07:10 PM
After a decent start, the 'Monks' 3-parter was a bit pointless. Like The Slients (Silence?), they had vague and unknowable motivations. I can't believe they'd go to all that effort of making an ENTIRE PLANET go yes please, we'd like to be ruled by your literally rotten features, that seems good, only for them to bugger off at the first sign of trouble. Did all the people working for them get TUPED back ?

On the plus side, Empress of Mars was pretty decent and I liked that. Especially turning the soldiers into horrible scrunched up balls. It was both comical and horrific. I approve! Plus: ALPHA CENTAURI!!! brilliant.

Denyer
2017-06-12, 08:47 PM
Definitely appreciating the retro. They're doing early era Cybermen at some point too, aren't they?

Skyquake87
2017-06-13, 06:55 PM
Yup. Whether that will involve The Master, I don't know...

Tetsuro
2017-06-17, 11:06 PM
I can't believe they'd go to all that effort of making an ENTIRE PLANET go yes please, we'd like to be ruled by your literally rotten features
Just once I'd like that kind of a monster to look reasonable attractive, at least at first, similar to Claws of Axos. At least then I could buy everyone going along with them a little better.

Not to mention their reason for looking that way was a bit bollocks, too.

Skyquake87
2017-06-18, 07:30 AM
I can't even remember why they looked like that! ...nor do I care.

Eaters Of Light was a nice change of pace and a really enjoyable story. I liked that it felt a little more soulful, don't know if that's the word, but maybe it was just the pictish setting and all. Anyway, I really enjoyed it. Decent supporting cast, although some of them could have done with more to do. Only slight whiff of cheese was the business with the blackbirds.

Tetsuro
2017-06-18, 12:51 PM
The Doctor (or one of the characters, I can't remember anymore) asked them why they looked like corpses, and their answer was something in the lines of "because you are corpses, you are already dead" or something dumb like that.

Brendocon 2.0
2017-06-26, 03:35 PM
So I love how they put two absolutely superb would-be jaw-dropper twists into "World Enough and Time" and then included both of them in the "next time" package on the previous week's episode.

Great ****ing job guys.

inflatable dalek
2017-06-26, 07:58 PM
See, as Capaldi's first season cliffhanger I can see why they'd announce the Cybermen in advance considering that once you film on location on a street it's all over the papers anyway (though that begs the question why they write these scripts as a surprise when Moff must know he'd have no choice but to go with it), but John Simm doesn't seem to have done any filming where folk saw him, so why ruin that?

That said, the disguise completely fooled me even though I knew he was in the episode. It was only when he started talking to Missy and I realised we'd reached the end of episode cliffhanger point Simm should be showing up that it clicked.

I am an idiot.

Good, moody episode though. Goodness knows what more causal viewers who've had a decade of Cybusmen thought of them doing "The origin of the Cybermen" again though. "Wait, they're from an alternate dimension aren't they? What's a "Mondas"?" But then mostly this season seems to be about the Moff giving up on casual viewers and doing everything he can to get hardcore fans to love him again before he goes.

As for the inbetween episodes, having now caught up, after a strong start this season has been a bit of a slog. Especially the Angel season 4 remake (but not as good!) in the middle. It feels like it kind of deserves the low viewing figures to be honest (including beating Battlefield for lowest overnight rating. You could argue it's unfair not to include IPlayer and so on for that one, but then taped and second TV viewings weren't included for McCoy).

I liked the Ice Warriors one though. And the Tardis team is actually great. They just need better material.

Odds on Moff going even more out with the fanwank and the pre-credits flashforward turning out to be set at the same time and place as the first Doctor's regeneration?

Brendocon 2.0
2017-06-26, 09:08 PM
See, as Capaldi's first season cliffhanger I can see why they'd announce the Cybermen in advance considering that once you film on location on a street it's all over the papers anyway (though that begs the question why they write these scripts as a surprise when Moff must know he'd have no choice but to go with it), but John Simm doesn't seem to have done any filming where folk saw him, so why ruin that?

Agree on the Cybermen, once it's common knowledge you may as well lean into it, but ruining both was just daft.

Good to see the Master hiding out under rubber masks again though, it must be said.

Skyquake87
2017-06-26, 09:09 PM
I was a bit disappointed they'd ruined Simm's return by spoilering it on purpose in advance :( I wouldn't mind, but (somehow) I managed to miss all the press stuff about him being in Who the first time around, so to have the show just give up and spoil everything seems like they've just given up keeping things from the chatty world of the internet. boo.

Disguise totally had me too! And I really liked this with its slow build up and whatnot. Nice :)

Tetsuro
2017-06-27, 11:53 AM
Goodness knows what more causal viewers who've had a decade of Cybusmen thought of them doing "The origin of the Cybermen" again though. "Wait, they're from an alternate dimension aren't they? What's a "Mondas"?"
That's something I've always been wondering about; have all the Cybermen in nu-Who been the alternate reality ones or have some of them actually been native to this universe and they just couldn't be bothered to come up with different designs for them to set them apart?

Skyquake87
2017-06-27, 06:59 PM
AFAIK, only the ones in Season 2 have been alternate reality ones. All their subsequent appearances are from 'our' universe, just using the same designs. I liked the sleeker Iron-Man looking ones we had since 2012 :)

Cyberstrike nTo
2017-06-27, 10:23 PM
AFAIK, only the ones in Season 2 have been alternate reality ones. All their subsequent appearances are from 'our' universe, just using the same designs. I liked the sleeker Iron-Man looking ones we had since 2012 :)

I was always thought the two versions met and/or the original Cybermen found some of the remains from of Torchwood Tower and just took various aspects from the alternate universe Cybermen and used them as their own.

Tetsuro
2017-07-01, 09:01 PM
They really have not been very good at establishing the difference.

What was the name of the other Cyberman planet anyway? The one from Tomb IIRC.

Skyquake87
2017-07-02, 09:11 AM
I'm not sure, in the finale, The Doctor must have repeated the names of the planets where he's encountered them twice, but just Mondas, Telos and Marinus have stuck.

Both of the newer designs showed up in the finale (disappointingly, i have to say), to show how the Cybermen had evolved over time - so it was a shame the Invasion and up redesigns didn't also make an appearance (always liked the Silver Nemesis design best of the 'classic' looks).

The series finale was pretty solid, I thought. Just a shame there was a bit of a struggle to find something for the Master/ Missy to do, although I did like the final scene between them. Likewise, Nardole's exit seemed little more than deck clearing before the new production team comes in. I've liked having him around, but we haven't really got to see much of why he's there and what he's all about. Oh well.

I did like how Bill being a Cyberman was done and resovled (although the pilot flashbacks were unnecessary) - good choice to have her appearing human, otherwise those scenes would have been impossible to take seriously done in the staccato of the Cyberman's synthesized voice.

Capaldi was brilliant throughout, and I loved his speech to The Master, just asking him to do the right thing for once.

and that is my thoughts.

Brendocon 2.0
2017-07-02, 11:55 AM
I never want Capaldi to leave.

Nice to see Simm playing the Master straight for once. Though boo to overexplaining the symbolism at the end there.

They really have not been very good at establishing the difference.

What was the name of the other Cyberman planet anyway? The one from Tomb IIRC.

Telos.

Or was it Planet 14.

Or Marinus?

inflatable dalek
2017-07-02, 07:08 PM
Mind, if memory serves Planet 14 was Marinus in the comic that was referencing...

Simm being a bit older seems to have slowed him down, resulting in a much better less bouncy twat performance (a John Simm fan on twitter was very angry at this, saying the difference was just direction. Boo to the Tennant era peeps who were directing him to act badly then). There was basically no reason for two masters, or even much of the Missy arc in the end, but they played off each other well enough for it to work.

Generally a very good finale, of the sort that makes you will Moff could do this every week. A little derivative in places (how often has Nick Briggs would up playing a companion now? Three times?), but still nice and foreboding stuff that ended well.

Not sure about the return of the First Doctor and Christmas special looking to be set between scenes in The Tenth Planet. Still, we shall see.

Brendocon 2.0
2017-07-02, 07:40 PM
I liked the idea of doing a Two Masters story just for the sake of it, tbh. Especially as it ties up the (admittedly unnecessary) "when did he regenerate" loose end, and also means that the Cyberman plan in Dark Water is basically a direct continuation of what he was upto here.

Did think that the "character from twelve episodes ago pops up and uses vague god-level sub-atomic-rewrite powers" to save Bill was a massive cop-out though.

Currently enjoying the small subsection of people on Twitter who don't realise Bradley was playing Hartnell and think he's the new Doctor.

[EDIT] Black clothes, beard, eyeliner, rubber masks, not bouncing about like a twat... yeah, definitely the direction o_0

Tetsuro
2017-07-02, 07:42 PM
Pretty sure Telos was the one.

The only thing that really bothered me about the episode was the lack of a definitive ending to the whole spaceship story. It's still stuck by a blackhole with cybermen creeping in on the surviving humans. The Doctor said Nardole will guard the survivors for the rest of their lives, but y'know those survivors are eventually gonna grow up and have kids too. What is he gonna do then?

inflatable dalek
2017-07-02, 07:43 PM
Currently enjoying the small subsection of people on Twitter who don't realise Bradley was playing Hartnell and think he's the new Doctor.

Mind, there is a point there that to get the impact you have to remember a one off docudrama from four years ago. Hartnell himself has been in the actual program as recently. I can see it falling flat/being confusing for a lot of folk.

I'm enjoying the Very Angry folk on Gallifrey Base who have worked out he's going to be terrible from five seconds because he's not going to play it exactly like Bill would.

No, not that Bill.

Brendocon 2.0
2017-07-02, 07:50 PM
Mind, there is a point there that to get the impact you have to remember a one off docudrama from four years ago.

I didn't remember that until about an hour after watching it, tbh.

Unrelated note, when are they going to get off their arses and animate the rest of the missing episodes?

inflatable dalek
2017-07-02, 07:56 PM
Unrelated note, when are they going to get off their arses and animate the rest of the missing episodes?

There's some confusion there. Cast members like Anneke Wills keep saying more are happening (and in the case of one guest star from Evil of the Daleks, that's he's been filming motion references!), but the folk who'd work on making the special features/restoring the soundtracks keep seeming legitimately baffled by this.

I suppose it all depends on how much Power depended on the now defunct BBC store.

Brendocon 2.0
2017-07-03, 02:26 PM
I suppose it all depends on how much Power depended on the now defunct BBC store.

I hate to think of anything depending on the BBC store.

Ryan F
2017-07-03, 09:27 PM
There's some confusion there. Cast members like Anneke Wills keep saying more are happening (and in the case of one guest star from Evil of the Daleks, that's he's been filming motion references!), but the folk who'd work on making the special features/restoring the soundtracks keep seeming legitimately baffled by this.

I suppose it all depends on how much Power depended on the now defunct BBC store.

Stupid question (Gallifrey Base scares me sometimes), but would the Restoration Team have much work to do on the animations? I mean, all the audio was cleaned up by Mark Ayres for the CD releases years ago, so that stuff is presumably available off the shelf.

On the other hand, Anneke Wills can get... 'confused' sometimes, and I'm not sure why you'd hire an old actor to perform MoCap for a series of animations where natural human movements haven't exactly been top of the priority list.

In any case, why would you re-hire an actor fifty years later to study his movement in an attempt to re-create his younger self - I mean, undoubtedly their posture, gait, bearing etc. would have changed considerably over the years? Sounds like balls, if you ask me!

inflatable dalek
2017-07-07, 01:30 PM
It's a case of wait and see!

I wouldn't be surprised if the filming was for a new fan recon.

On the Cybusmen, all the ones in the RTD era are from the parallel Earth (the ones in The Next Doctor are expressly said to have escaped the void, their images of all the Doctors being stolen from the Daleks).

The Moff era ones are intended to be from our Universe, but they couldn't pony up for costumes without the logo till Nightmare in Silver. Of course, the cheeky "They turn up everywhere!" dialogue in the finale basically solves all Cybermen chronology problems.

Cyberstrike nTo
2017-07-13, 12:36 PM
The Moff era ones are intended to be from our Universe, but they couldn't pony up for costumes without the logo till Nightmare in Silver. Of course, the cheeky "They turn up everywhere!" dialogue in the finale basically solves all Cybermen chronology problems.

It's also a nice albeit it dark and real bit of social commentary. I loved the shot at Trump as well.

Skyquake87
2017-07-16, 08:03 PM
So, Jodie Whitaker is the 13th Doctor.

I wish this felt progressive and less like...shutting up the tabloids who've been banging on about the Doctor being female since...1980.

In fiction, it just raises all kinds of questions about Timelord physiology and the populace of Gallifrey in general that, honestly, I was never had or was bothered about. Or crucially, never wanted to know about. It's been kind of drip fed into the TV series in recent years, so its just "sometimes they like to be female and others male", which is fine... but I dunno, I didn't want Doctor Who to suddenly be derailed by biology and gender issues. It probably wont be, but its such a big concept to put out there... It'll be interesting to see how / if this is tackled. I'm rambling now.

Anyway, interested to see what Jodie's Doctor will be like and she looks very smiley :) Even if I am a bit sad that we've lost one of the most unique male role models out there in TV land.

Tetsuro
2017-07-16, 08:49 PM
Or crucially, never wanted to know about. It's been kind of drip fed into the TV series in recent years, so its just "sometimes they like to be female and others male", which is fine... but I dunno, I didn't want Doctor Who to suddenly be derailed by biology and gender issues. It probably wont be
When you put it like that, it makes me think of those situations where you tell someone you explicitly don't care about a certain topic when they bring it up, only for them to go on a rant about it anyway.

Part of me wants to be mad about this in the same way I'm always annoyed by race- and genderswapping, but I'm beginning to think that part of me has numbed to a kind of indifference. I can't stop them from pandering to demographics so there's no point getting worked up over it. Plus you're pretty much guaranteed the well has already been poisoned before you ever get involved into any sort of argument over the whole thing.

For all I know, Jodie might be fine in the role. In the other hand, they might also kill it with some kind of a lame "Hey I'm a woman now!" joke repeated ad nauseum.

I also started wondering why I never had particularly strong feelings about Missy either, and I think that boils down to the part where her identity was suspect for a fairly long time - and also the simple fact that the nu-Who Master was always a bit shit.

Denyer
2017-07-16, 09:11 PM
Not an actress I'm familiar with -- I'd echo others and say it's a shame they didn't go with ginger and have the Doctor not actually notice the gender swap.

But more to the point I'll be sorry to see the current Doctor go. Didn't quite get Eccleston or Tennant (in large part I think due to lousy scripts) and the Smith companions had a similar effect a lot of the time, but I think both Smith and Capaldi carried the role well, and we'll hopefully see some multi-Doctor episodes in future.

There'll be huge bonus points if later on in the series this turns out to be Iris Wildthyme.

edit: Also, I really wanted it to be Tilda Swinton -- Whittaker doesn't have much of an alien feel.

Cyberstrike nTo
2017-07-16, 10:50 PM
I was kind of hoping for Haley Atwell (Peggy Carter) she would be been a great Doctor.

Tetsuro
2017-07-16, 11:18 PM
I guess Helen Mirren might've been a little too much to ask.

Skyquake87
2017-07-17, 06:11 AM
When you put it like that, it makes me think of those situations where you tell someone you explicitly don't care about a certain topic when they bring it up, only for them to go on a rant about it anyway.

^This.

I also agree with your comments about Missy. Michelle Gomez is brilliant, but the character never felt nailed down enough to convince me she was The Master (didn't help that after unveiling whatever mad scheme she was doing, she just kind of ...hangs around not really doing much). I'm sure that won't be the case with The Doctor, who's a more avuncular character, but it does show that if the writing isn't there then your whole 'it's a girl!' just looks little more than stunt casting, and that's no good.

Anyway, what would I know, I can't even spell Jodie's name right. It's Whittaker with two 't' s. Tut tut.

Tetsuro
2017-07-17, 04:32 PM
It also probably helped that whatever flaws she might've had, Missy still seemed like an improvement over the bouncing twat he was during the final RTD episodes. Which is even more of a shame because if the last episode proved anything, it's that John Simm can definitely deliver a solid performance as the Master under good direction and script. Although there's no way to know they're just not planning to bring Simm's Master back and have him deal with regenerating into a woman in some unspecified time in the future, kinda like Clara seems to have an indefinite lease of life now.

Although I still kind of have trouble buying the part where he literally kills his own future self rather than side with the Doctor; if his behaviour in the classic episodes is anything to go by, a somewhat understated characteristic of the Master is that he's a bit of a coward, so what is effectively suicide seems kind of out-of-character.

Heinrad
2017-07-18, 02:13 AM
Haven't seen the finale yet, but from what I've read here, I'm suddenly reminded of the book Harvest of Time, where the Third Doctor stumbles across a ship filled with different, time-stasised versions of the Master. I'll have to read it again, but the Delgado Master seemed to view the situation as "Oh, good. Lots more of me to go around." Whereas his future versions weren't nearly as thrilled about it.

Or bouncing to The End of Time, I kind of got the impression that as long as the Master Cult had some goop and a willing(or unwilling) dupe, they could bring him back, though I was never sure if he was really back to being a full Time Lord. That's where I thought Missy came from, to be honest. The goop didn't regenerate the woman's body he took over into a man, so the Master just changed his/her name to the Mistress, and went about doing what he'd been doing right along.

As for the new Doctor.... I don't know, really. At the moment, all I can think of is the end to Curse of the Fatal Death. Is she a good actress? Can she make the role her own? Are they preparing to burn Chibnall in effigy before we see what he's got planned?

inflatable dalek
2017-07-21, 01:10 PM
Never seen Whittaker in anything, which is pleasing as it creates the same situation I was in with Matt Smith: No preconceptions.

Though to date I don't think the casting of the Doctor has made a wrong step so far in the new series (even if Eccles isn't a favourite of mine, he was absolutely the right guy for the role at that time), so I'm not too worried on that score. The writing on the other hand...

Still, it's a good opening statement of intent from Chibbers that the show isn't going to retreat into playing it safe RTD lite stuff as I was expecting it to.

As for the casting of a woman, all for it and there's absolutely no reason not to do it. Even before the Moff started laying the pipe from almost his very first line as producer ("I'm a girl?"), the logic of regeneration is such nonsense at the service of the plot there's nothing you can't do with it. Audiences accepted regeneration energy zapping a clone of the Doctor's hand and making a human copy of him they'll be fine with this.

Not to sure what's so bad if this casting is designed to appeal to a demographic when that demographic would be women, or half of all people. There's a tendency from people who don't like the choice to paint it as only appealing to a small niche of PC gone mad SJW's when it's going to mean something to a lot more folk than that.

I mean, Twitter was full of women crying with joy at this. You'd have not gotten anything like that sort of reaction from another white bloke.

Tetsuro
2017-07-21, 04:56 PM
Audiences accepted regeneration energy zapping a clone of the Doctor's hand and making a human copy of him
Speak for yourself.

inflatable dalek
2017-07-21, 05:00 PM
Speak for yourself.


"Audiences" doesn't equal "You". Or me for that matter, but that was a very popular story.

Skyquake87
2017-07-21, 08:23 PM
I love that finale to Season 4, silly growing an extra Doctor and all :) I've seen bits of Broadchurch with Whittaker in, and she's a fine actor, so will be great. It will, of course, stand and fall on the writing.

...I'm sure it will all be fine!

andersonh1
2017-07-24, 06:13 PM
I was never convinced that Missy was the same character played by Roger Delgado, Peter Pratt and Anthony Ainley. Similarly, I'm going to have a really hard time seeing Whittaker as the same character played by Capaldi, Davison and Hartnell. It's just a bridge too far for me.

Denyer
2017-07-24, 06:40 PM
It's the Davison, Eccleston, Tennant etc ones that haven't gelled personally. A bit too casually "normal" and the scripts emphasised the yoof angle.

Tangent; they're playing up the "don't want to regenerate" angle these days aren't they?

edit: Audiences accepted regeneration energy zapping a clone of the Doctor's hand and making a human copy of him

Which ones were these then? Got the impression the Tylers were wearing thin by that point -- like most companions reactions tend to turn after a while, although Martha got it the worst. Did like the lampshading of dumping it into another universe, although with having since gotten heavy handed reasons why going back to Rory/Amy and others isn't an option, that's become business as usual.

Gouki
2017-07-25, 05:05 AM
I was never convinced that Missy was the same character played by Roger Delgado, Peter Pratt and Anthony Ainley. Similarly, I'm going to have a really hard time seeing Whittaker as the same character played by Capaldi, Davison and Hartnell. It's just a bridge too far for me.

So... why is it a bridge too far?

andersonh1
2017-07-25, 02:05 PM
So... why is it a bridge too far?

We're supposed to believe that this is the same person played by different actors. I think that despite all the differences in the actors playing the Master or the Doctor, there was at least the consistency that he was a male British actor that has run through them all that at least offered me something that was the same every time, some tiny straw to grasp. Regeneration is a concept that requires a pretty heft suspension of disbelief as it is, and I think it's finally been stretched to the breaking point.

I tried with Missy. It's not as though we haven't had her as a dry run for a female Doctor. We're not going into this blind. Missy is meant to be the same character that we last saw played by John Simms and Derek Jacobi, but I have never perceived her as "the Master". She's always seemed like someone different and separate. The change just doesn't work for me, and I doubt the Doctor will be any different.

Denyer
2017-07-25, 04:38 PM
Think there's some of Delgado and Ainley in Gomez's performance. Didn't particularly like Simms as he was like a mirror universe Simon Pegg at times.

Based on close to no footage, they need to (i.e. I think they ought to) aim for some decent costume throwbacks, and not to Davison. One or two Romana throwbacks would be fun, and possibly a K9.

andersonh1
2017-07-25, 06:13 PM
Think there's some of Delgado and Ainley in Gomez's performance. Didn't particularly like Simms as he was like a mirror universe Simon Pegg at times.

I've been watching a start to finish Who marathon for a few years now, and I'm currently watching Tennant's second season with the three parter that brought back the Master. I like Simms more than I did the first time around. He has a bit of Ainley's madness turned up to hyperactive levels, but he doesn't really seem to be drawing on any past performances, just playing the part as written. I think Davies just decided, along with other modern writers, that the Master's sole defining characteristic is that he's insane, which I maintain Delgado's version never was. I think Ainley's version might well have been, after all he'd done to himself. I thought Eric Roberts did a better job and was closer to Delgado than anyone else has managed, but I suspect I'm in the minority in liking his performance.

I'll have to watch Gomez again and see what I think this time when I get to Capaldi's episodes. I know they were going for a Pertwee/Delgado "former friends" vibe with her and Capaldi, but she's so silly half the time, and I don't see any of Delgado's suaveness or affability in her performance. And to be bluntly honest, I just don't see him turning into her down the line. Changing the character into a woman really disconnects them.

Denyer
2017-07-25, 07:43 PM
The Pertwee era's tendency towards ridiculousness is one of things I like most about it, TBH. Take that and blend it with a bit of mad and homicidal and that's what I find myself recognising.

And the Master isn't particularly fussy about surviving in a non-humanoid form. It's fitting that the incarnation that kills (as far as he knows) his future self is Simms, who represents a point at which madness was basically all there was to the character -- although I assume he's got some sort of contingency, like a time-looped copy or clone or something. (I suspect we'll see the Master back as a bloke versus the new Doctor).

Having grown up with harder science fiction such as Iain M Banks in which elective reconfiguration of biology is a thing (and it's the exception that Culture citizens stick with a body or gender for most of their existence, and uploading or transitioning into other forms of life -- including whole civilisations opting to leave the matter universe behind -- is very common) I guess I just see this as considerably more likely than time travel.

Tetsuro
2017-07-28, 02:16 PM
If anything, at this point I find my biggest point of contention with casting a woman in the role isn't because of the genderswap or the implications it might have, but it's effect on the fandom.

I'm honestly sick and tired of hearing about social politics all the time, and now I have one less thing I'm a fan of where that's not an issue. I've already had to block two people (not here, fortunately) for hurling insults at me because, hey, I don't like it so I must be a misogynist.

Cyberstrike nTo
2017-08-07, 11:12 PM
You know I'm actually excited to see the next season of Dr. Who. I love the idea of a female Doctor and I think it will bring a much needed breath of fresh air and also much needed new perspective on the Doctor. I can't wait to see what Jodie Whittaker does with the role.

It takes a lot to get me excited about a TV show now of days, which meaning I'm planning on how I'm going to scrape up the money to buy a season pass on XBL and/or PSN. Or do I wait for it to be on Netflix, Amazon Prime, or Blu-Ray?
Oh decisions, decisions, decisions.

Right now the only other shows that I do that are the CW/DCU TV shows Supergirl, Arrow, The Flash and DC's Legends of Tomorrow these are the only other shows that I actually can't wait to see new seasons.

inflatable dalek
2017-12-08, 05:18 PM
Working through my season 10 boxset (signed my Pearl Mackie, who is adorable) as we head towards Christmas, I'd forgotten how strongly the year started. Shame it all goes wrong around the time of that pyramid story...

Loving the excellent fan trolling of the photos of the recreated Hartnell Tardis for the special where the wall that was just a photograph of a packet of paracetamol has been replaced by new series style hexagonal roundels.

Skyquake87
2017-12-12, 08:04 PM
I hadn't noticed that. Crikey, I'm so unobservant. Mind you, why would you make something a bit rubbish looking, simply because that's how it was in olden times? Are people upset by this?

inflatable dalek
2017-12-15, 06:31 PM
Someone is always upset by everything.

The more clips I'm seeing the more I'm liking Bradley, very much feels like he's playing the First Doctor rather than trying to be William Hartnell Playing the First Doctor, which is how most of the other attempts to recreate the role in different media come across as.

Shame we're apparently getting an explanation as to why the First Doctor looks different though, New Who's inability to just recast/reuse actors (except for when they replaced Clara's dad oddly) without getting all meta is one of its oddest qualities.

Cyberstrike nTo
2017-12-26, 11:51 PM
Well since no one else has talked about it yet I guess I will. I saw the Doctor Who 2017 Christmas Special and I have to say it was a damn good ending to Calpadi's tenure as the Doctor and to the Moffat era as well.
Spoilers ahead.

The Good:
The idea of the first Doctor not wanting to regenerate because he's afraid and the 12th Doctor not wanting to regenerate because he wants peace was a neat idea.

The WWI Captain played Mark Gatiss being an ancestor to the Lethbridge-Stewart family while a bit of fanservice was done well.

The first Doctor walking on to the 12th Doctor's TARDIS was really funny.

Bill's return to and interaction with the first Doctor and the Captain with the 12th Doctor running interference and trying to get the first Doctor to dial down the sexism was funny and really well done.

The cameos by Clara and Nardole were really sweet and funny as was the Doctor getting his memories of Clara restored.

The Testimony not being "evil" was a great twist.

Bill asking the first Doctor what he is running too was a great spin and his answer was quite profound.

The return of Rusty the good Dalek was cool.

Peter Calpadi's final speech was great and gives the 13th Doctor some great advice before regenerating and there is a great cliffhanger for the 13th Doctor.

The Bad:

You would think the Doctor would park the TARDIS somewhere before regenerating and blowing up the TARDIS again! I get why it's done but still it's a bit much.

I wished they would have given the 13th Doctor some more dialogue both Matt Smith and Peter Calpadi got a more than one or two words. All she says is "Oh Brilliant!"

Not a lot of Christmas stuff except at the end which makes sense in a way but like last year the Christmas element is more of plot point then anything.

Overall small problems aside it is a great ending to the 12th Doctor and
I enjoyed it a lot and I'm really looking forward to the adventures of the 13th Doctor.

Tetsuro
2017-12-27, 06:45 PM
Personally I just liked the whole twist of there being no diabolical plan of any kind at all. Although what bothered me was that they made it pretty explicit the Captain was going to die, since the Testimony was supposed to return him to the moment of death, except then they did and he proceeded to not die. I like happy endings at all, but that was kind of misleading if not an outright plot hole.

Also I thought the first doctor being sexist was really stupid. That was never one of his character traits. If anything, he was condescending towards everybody!

Skyquake87
2017-12-28, 09:11 PM
After being really unsure about the Doctor being a lady, I was won over straight away by Whittaker - that look she had that something feels different and then looking to see her reflection and grinning "Oh Brilliant!".

Blowing up the TARDIS whilst regenerating does seem a very foolhardy thing to do - I got Tenth doing it to spite whoever came after him after his carrying on about regenerating to Wilf, but here...I didn't see the need. Maybe its something to do with the psychic link the Docotr has with the TARDIS or something something.

I'm not a big fan of cameos like the ones here honestly, which felt a bit indulgent, and felt Bill's return rather undid her exit ...but I did like The Testimony, that was a cool concept. Basically preserving people - memories makes us, after all.

David Bradley was ace, but I was a bit disappointed that the show pointed out that he looks different - that was unnecessary, and how would they explain Ben and Polly looking different?!

These are minor niggles though, as this was generally lovely stuff.

Tetsuro
2017-12-29, 12:43 AM
Blowing up the TARDIS whilst regenerating does seem a very foolhardy thing to do - I got Tenth doing it to spite whoever came after him after his carrying on about regenerating to Wilf, but here...I didn't see the need. Maybe its something to do with the psychic link the Docotr has with the TARDIS or something something.

It's also like what, the fourth time they've done it? The Doctor regenerates, the TARDIS blows up and crashes.

Next time, s/he should just regenerate outside.

inflatable dalek
2017-12-29, 04:48 PM
(Moved posts to the end of Moff thread, mainly because we mods don't get to do much these days so it keeps me off the street)

That had a lot to like. I don't think it was particulalry good as a Christmas special (which probably needed a bit more going on. This felt quite cheap in places with its small cast, minimal location work and main featured set being the largely made from stock 60's Tardis), but if it had gone out at the end of season 10 as that sort of subverting expectations contemplative finale US shows sometimes do (Buffy season 4 or the final Babylon 5) it would mostly be quite watchable.

Bradley and Capaldi had great chemistry, Gatiss could do that sort of role in his sleep and was very entertaining (and amusingly the copyright holders of the Brigadier are pissed this was done without their consent and are working to make this a Great Uncle of the Brig rather than the Great Grandfather in their spin-off books!) and the idea there wasn't really a threat was a nice twist. Though what was going on was basically a benign version of Missy's plot in Death in Heaven. But then the poor Moff run out of new ideas about two years ago anyway.

Also, whilst I think revisiting a 51 year old story was insane (opening with a "709 episodes ago" caption of 4:3 black and white feels like it should have been off-putting to casuals), the recreations of the Tenth Planet we did see were stunning. Just a shame most of that was cut out after they'd gone to the effort! I've a feeling the recap was originally going to be all refilmed before they hit on the morph idea as a way of including Bill.

And Whitaker was fine in her brief scene, though I was mainly glad it was too the point after the lengthy goodbye from 12, I still remember being worn out by Matt Smith going on and on after Tennant's goodbye tour had passed the natural end point of the episode.

The regeneration itself though felt a bit rubbish, too close to End of Time without being as impressive. I think the final speech itself was also hurt by Murray Gold, in what his apparently his last contribution, just slapping stock music over the top of it that never seems to quite relate to what's on screen.

But the big thing for me, and probably disproportionately I must admit, was the First Doctor as a sexist. Not only was it not true to his original character. Across three years and a 100 odd episodes you can find biggoted stuff representing the time, but it's very much the in the minority for an irascible but likeable character who could be patronising to the young and perhaps humans generally. Hell, there's probably more racism from the character (though still not a lot) and the episode didn't dare touch that (well, apart from the comment about the French. That's the First Doctor who ****ing loved the French and was excited both times we went there), as if sexism is just funnier.

Now I've had it argued to me that the recreated First Doctor was just being used here to channel and discuss 1960's attitudes. And as an idea I'd not have a problem with that, indeed it'd probably be more Christmas than anything else in the episode. How many people watching were stuck with an Aunt or Uncle that voted Brexit or thinks Nigel Farage deserves that knighthood? Deconstructing that awkward thing of dealing with relatives with antiquated views could have been very interesting.

But the episode didn't do that. The Bradley Doctor doesn't go on a journey where he learns his views are wrong. He shuts up when he learns Bill sups from the furry cup, but he seems to cheerfully go to his death thinking women should do the cleaning (and Polly having to do domestic stuff comes from Troughton, where she had to make the coffee. Once. Which she then used to kill Cybermen as it was Nescafe Gold Blend) and are very brittle things.

Worse than that, the 12th Doctor doesn't actually make any arguments against the sexism. He just keeps pulling sitcom "What are you liiiiiiiiiiiiike!" faces (oddly when his counterpart is quite reasonably explaining to a First World War soldier that men can be nurses) and going "You can't say that!" without ever coming up with any reason why he shouldn't.

Compared that to the actual Hartnell era where whenever he went to far in his behaviour his companions would completely rip him apart (Barbara in the Edge of Destruction, Steven in the Massacre and so on).

We're also clearly supposed to still like the First Doctor, even though someone who kept saying things like that after being repeatedly asked not to is just a dick.

It feels as if Moffat is so annoyed at the accusations of sexism that are frequently aimed at him (somewhat unfairly IMHO, though I've not seen Sherlock which apparently has some hum-dinger moments in it) that he's snapped and started screaming "BUT LOOK AT THE OLD SHOW!!!!!"

All he's really leaving himself open to is not having any room to complain come the 2047 episode where the recast 11th Doctor barges in going "Ohhh, very clean Tardis. I guess you've no bad girls with sexy bums about the place then! Now, find me a lesbian to kiss against her will until she has to slap me". It certainly feels a bit rich for the writer who shouted "YOU WILL BE ERASED FROM DOCTOR WHO" at Caroline Skinner to take an era of the show kickstarted by Verity Lambert to task for its sexism.

Now, compare all this to a film I'm planning to watch tonight as a contrast: Star Trek VI. Which also uses 60's TV icons to explore the inherent bigotry of that generation.

Now, there are Star Trek fans who loath that film (as did Gene Rodenberry) because Kirk and company were never that racist towards Klingons. And there's a point there, even in the films Kirk was prepared to offer his hand to rescue the Klingon bastard who killed his son and the previous movie ended with everyone getting blind drunk with a Klingon crew.

But it works because the film has a point to make, about how even generally good people can be bigoted without even realising it because of the culture they grew up in and it can be hard for them to adapt as society changes around them. But it is possible to change and become a better person if you keep open to new ideas no matter how old you get. No one has to be a dinosaur.

Next to that you've got "Women eh! Like glass. Just ignore the fact that I don't actually know I'm turning in to Patrick Troughton yet and by the rules of regeneration this episode is working to for all I know I could be about to become a woman so my attitude to women literally makes no sense whatsoever" and it's just oh **** off.

Skyquake87
2017-12-30, 11:14 AM
The sexism is just bizarre, isn't it? It kind of washed over me, if I'm honest, but I'm sure on repeat viewings, it'll be incredibly jarring -especially when the First Doctor was just going around being "old and important" more than anything else.

I'm surprised to hear Moffat's been accused of sexism in Who and Sherlock (the latter, I admit, I don't watch). But I'm puzzled by this. At least judging by his body of Who work (and stuff like Coupling, Press Gang and Jekyll), there's nothing overt or obvious to suggest this. Maybe some of the stuff with Amy Pond (which seemed to me not to be taken seriously, and that that character's confidence with her sexuality meant it never felt crass or vulgar and was part of who she was), but other than that? Am I missing something, some subtext or something? Or is this the usual tiresome grind of social media and the influence that brings to bear on bloody everything these days? And that we're rapidly entering an age where you can't say anything without someone being offended, or worse, taking offence on behalf of others ... like that woman who now thinks Sleeping Beauty and all fairy tales should be banned on account of them featuring (in Sleeping Beauty's case) non-consensual kissing , irrespective of the context of the story and why that's happening.

Tetsuro
2017-12-30, 11:35 AM
This is the first I've heard of anybody accusing Moffat of sexism too.

Maybe it's some kind of an offscreen thing like not paying the female actors as much or something. I mean, I'm assuming that whoever is accusing him of it also bothered explaining why.

inflatable dalek
2017-12-30, 12:32 PM
I think the problem is Moff is, like pretty much every writer, a guy with a certain set of stock character types he either falls back on or thinks he's especially good at which is fine in isolation but over eight years of running the show becomes a bit overwhelming. And his fondness for crazy psycho women (River and that character from Time of the Doctor being exactly the same character. I gather Irene Addler and Sherlock's sister were little different in their own show) really annoys a lot of folk unintentionally.

Of course, things like that really odd Radio Times interview (which, to be fair, he disowns in the podcast I'm about to link to, but he talks about the headline being inaccurate when I have to say I read the full thing and he came across terribly) when he talks about how he couldn't have cast a female Doctor because it would have been "pandering" (because women and mninorities are only ever "Pandering", right?) and he couldn't have followed the love machine Tenth Doctor with a girl anyway didn't help.

Still, here's a really interview with Moff that was recorded right before the Special was broadcast, where he's just so tired and is very defensive against all the nasty lefty bullies who go after him. And of course there have been dicks on the left going after him, but so have all the dicks on the right, so focusing particularly on that is very interesting.

And of course, any bullying he has undergone for writing the odd bad script is as nothing compared to (to use a "Look at the crazy left fighting the wrong battle!" example in the show) the "Barbara" jokes trans people had to put up with in the '90's thanks to the League of Gentlemen.

https://www.bigfinish.com/podcasts/v/toby-hadoke---who-s-round-232

Skyquake87
2017-12-30, 01:06 PM
Tbh, I can still get how casting a female Doctor is pandering to an extent. I wouldn't mind it if it felt more like there was a narrative drive for it (which, in fairness, there has been certainly in the last couple of series of Who) , but its been drowned out by all the clamour for it and just whiffs of caving to external pressures, whether that's frothing tabloid journalists or the BBC's own drive for diversity at all costs (especially in light of the horrendous publication of salaries it had to endure). That more than anything else has just made me unable to properly get behind the idea until very recently. It just feels like "There. We did it. Are you happy now?".

I think the only thing that Moffat has been a bit too reliant on is making his female leads somehow directly intertwined with the Doctor's life, which is why I think Bill was so refreshing - she wasn't stolen away at birth to become the Doctor's killer or key to being able to restart the Universe by having a life that didn't make sense, she was just herself and that was great.

Although I didn't much care for River Song and the Church Lady that got turned into a Dalek, I didn't mind them. Certainly not the latter, anyway who didn't stick around long enough for me to care. River is ostensibly a complex character and I don't think she was developed very well and really, what Moffat was trying to do with her, wasn't pulled off very well. There's too much to get into with that character and her complicated life and it just wasn't done very well. She really needed the sort of long-form storytelling you've get in a soap opera. Or her own show.

His worst offender for me was Clara. A character so thin and underdeveloped that her use as a plot point ultimately defines her, and it was a bit of a shame she came back for Capaldi's second series as her story was done and without any depth to her, there really wasn't any excitement for me at seeing her come back, despite Jenna Coleman giving it her all.

As for LOG, it's interesting that there's been such outrage for not only Barbara but also Papa Lazarou in the recent new episodes. Again, symptomatic of how times have changed etc etc but also that people can't recognise that some of these things are ripe for humour, whether you like it or not. LOG has always been a show about grotesques and caricatures of some of the very worst aspects of human behaviour, so to take offence at it seems very silly indeed. Or that you shouldn't be watching. And surely to God, if you're tuning in, you must have some idea of what you're letting yourself in for - the writing team does comprise people who wrote Psychoville and Inside No. 9!

I dunno, I just think people need to take a step back and think 'why is this upsetting me' before frothing at the gills about a work of fiction that they can take or leave.

There are somethings in life we absolutely should be bothered about; equality and education and health and our place in the world (especially here in the UK where Brexit is shaping up to be a right dogs breakfast, the government are seeking to curtail press freedom and have the sort of internet China does, amongst many many other deeply troubling issues), its good to be critical, but taking offence at works of fiction or cartoons or whatever the hell it is is aiming your ire in the wrong place.

inflatable dalek
2017-12-30, 01:39 PM
Tbh, I can still get how casting a female Doctor is pandering to an extent. I wouldn't mind it if it felt more like there was a narrative drive for it (which, in fairness, there has been certainly in the last couple of series of Who) , but its been drowned out by all the clamour for it and just whiffs of caving to external pressures, whether that's frothing tabloid journalists or the BBC's own drive for diversity at all costs (especially in light of the horrendous publication of salaries it had to endure). That more than anything else has just made me unable to properly get behind the idea until very recently. It just feels like "There. We did it. Are you happy now?".

What actually would be the costs of diversity though? That's basically why women and other groups get so angry at this sort of thing, the idea that White Hetrosexual Male is the default and anything else is a bit odd and weird and quota ticking rather than just as valid.



As for LOG, it's interesting that there's been such outrage for not only Barbara but also Papa Lazarou in the recent new episodes. Again, symptomatic of how times have changed etc etc but also that people can't recognise that some of these things are ripe for humour, whether you like it or not. LOG has always been a show about grotesques and caricatures of some of the very worst aspects of human behaviour, so to take offence at it seems very silly indeed. Or that you shouldn't be watching. And surely to God, if you're tuning in, you must have some idea of what you're letting yourself in for - the writing team does comprise people who wrote Psychoville and Inside No. 9!

It's a YMMV thing of course, but I can see the point in still doing Papa Lazarou as the basic message there is people who do blackface are ****s, and I don't think the name has ever become an actual slur.

Barbara on the other hand, we're in an era where transgender people are actively fighting harder than ever for their basic right to exist and there's an increasingly loud right wing voice calling for their total extermination (to coin a phrase). It's hardly surprising they'd find the return of a twenty year old incredibly negative "Man in a dress with a big butch voice" stereotype hugely upsetting and something to complain about loudly.

(Gatiss of course hasn't helped himself recently by attacking the casting in his last Ice Warriors episode with "I find it hard to imagine black people existing before 1950", which was a joke in an attempted point about not liking diverse casting in the Victorian army--even though it's actually broadly speaking accurate to real history--but still about the single worst soundbite he could have come up with)

Plus there's that twenty year old character. Twenty years before 1997 we had Bernard Manning and the like doing their terrible material. Young people today looking back at the stuff we grew up with and going "What. The. ****." when it's problematic isn't a fault with them (especially, as with Barbara, it's still being done today so there's no "Those were the times!" arguments to be made), it's that the world has shifted. Largely for the better, even if there are so many trying to drag us back. The problem was more a group like transgender people not having a platform in 1997 to talk about how things like this are hurting them and the people making the show never having that chance to realise it.


There are somethings in life we absolutely should be bothered about; equality and education and health and our place in the world (especially here in the UK where Brexit is shaping up to be a right dogs breakfast, the government are seeking to curtail press freedom and have the sort of internet China does, amongst many many other deeply troubling issues), its good to be critical, but taking offence at works of fiction or cartoons or whatever the hell it is is aiming your ire in the wrong place.

Oh they can multitask, I love the passion and take no shit attitude of people in their teens and twenties have at the moment to take down everything. I don't remember it being like that for my generation, maybe not having the unifying thing of something like Twitter was a factor there as well. I hope they can keep it up, when you're fighting against the real dark evil consuming the world right now we need that strength and determination more than ever.

And even if it's less important, never forget how important media is in shaping world views and how seeing people that look like you well represented can make a massive difference. We saw that this year with the ecstatic reaction to Wonder Woman and there's a similar build up to Black Panther. There was a great video the other day of several POC surrounding a poster with its one Caucasian Andy Serkis face on it and going "This is what it feels like for white people ALL THE TIME!" and dancing around with pure joy.

Tetsuro
2017-12-30, 02:00 PM
(because women and mninorities are only ever "Pandering", right?)
It is when it's done badly. And it usually is when it's done by people who don't actually believe in the message they're trying to send, whether it's because they don't really care or know about this stuff but they're forced into paying them lip service by their superiors, or they're just doing it out of some misguided attempt at helping.

And it really isn't helping when you're suddenly changing the gender of a previously established character, one with a history spanning several decades at that. It just strikes me as a desperate attempt to try and look progressive, something which the new series already has a pretty lousy history with. Rather than working that stuff smoothly into the stories, it's often just "oh and I'm a <sexual minority> by the way" and that's it, like it's some kind of a gag in itself (and it has been).

And that's what worries me about future episodes; rather than pretty much completely ignoring the change and just treating her as just The Doctor, they treat her as The Female Doctor. And then make lame gags about it.

Skyquake87
2017-12-30, 02:32 PM
Oh, absolutely, white male shouldn't be the default. Maybe it's just Who's profile and the hoo-ha surrounding it that's made me feel this way. It just doesn't feel that it's happened organically through the show - despite what it has done to try and promote the idea. Like anything else, diversity is great, so long as you're promoting it on merit and not just to fill a quota.

As for the transgender thing, I do understand why people are upset ...it's just have people seen what that character is about? Someone so enthusiastic about their gender-reassignment that they describe what will happen in graphic and painstaking detail. Then, in the revival shows, the whole 'militant liberal' angle of not wanting to use gender pronouns and so on - those are genuine things to poke fun at. It's clear that people haven't been able to divorce it from it seeming like the character is being held up as being what transgender though. I don't know, maybe I'm just not inclined to take things at face value so have a hard time understanding why everyone else gets so upset. Either way, let's hope there's not a Little Britain revival anytime soon or the internet will explode.

I don't mind the take down everything attitude, but it doesn't seem terribly productive - it's smarter in my mind to understand how things work and how we can make those things work better for people today. Nowadays, it just seems like everything is wrong and to be instantly mistrusted and so it must be gotten rid of.

It's interesting to read a lot of comment threads on newspaper sites and see how little time people now have to understand either each other or the mechanics of the world and are just looking for a quick fix for everything. This kind of thing seems only to be leading to-and encouraging- a race to the bottom, where everything is entitled and nothing is valued and no one accepts any personal responsibility.

I'm extremely interested to see how society develops as people who've grown up with social media age and enter into industry and politics and how this will change things. I hope it will lead to some genuinely positive things, and less of the corner cutting we see at the moment (Fracking , for example, looks set to become a genuine enivronmental disaster in the UK given what's happened in Blackpool recently, thanks to no regulation in order to kick-start the next big energy gold rush).

Denyer
2018-01-02, 12:48 AM
I'm not a big fan of cameos like the ones here honestly, which felt a bit indulgent, and felt Bill's return rather undid her exit ...but I did like The Testimony, that was a cool concept. Basically preserving people - memories makes us, after all.

If that's of interest, an oblique turn on it is the Faction Paradox follow-on stuff that span off from the Eighth Doctor novels --

https://www.amazon.com/Faction-Paradox-Saved-Philip-Purser-Hallard/dp/0972595945/

Even knowing it was coming the Lethbridge-Stewart reveal was quite emotive, as was One's "good luck". Enjoyed it.

Skyquake87
2018-01-04, 11:04 PM
Hmm...interesting, might have to check those out. Thanks!

Tetsuro
2018-06-19, 11:38 PM
Ultimately what annoys me the most about the casting decision is that it is almost entirely political - and what about the next Doctor? They can't cast a man in the role again without also making it political.

They've just opened a whole new can of worms that didn't need to be opened.

Skyquake87
2018-06-23, 08:56 PM
I live for the day when we can all get over some of us having different genitals.

Denyer
2018-06-24, 12:21 PM
I'm much more put off, as I might have mentioned, by the initial wardrobe choice seeming to riff off the Davison outfit. Hopefully that goes and the red hair dye comes out (have we ever had a Doctor change hair colour mid-incarnation? Could play with that residual regen energy concept a bit.)

Can't remember what I've said already, but given that the Whoniverse includes the Master whose incarnations aren't necessarily the same species and that as a concept literally every story could exist in the same wiped/overwritten timeline and that "do overs" have happened repeatedly, this is a science fiction franchise it's very difficult to take the POV that genderflipping is somehow a radical or spoiling choice. It's fairly likely to be tokenistic (at this stage I'm calling it as likely to be a younger bloke next).

And on tangents, it'd potentially be a rich vein script-wise to have a Romana take the lead role instead, and would like to see an Iris cameo whilst Katy Manning is here to play it.

As far as the on-screen fiction goes, Who and Trek are both small-C conservative progressive narrative franchises, and pushing contemporary boundaries in a teatime TV way is what they do. If that pisses off Alf Garnett types, good.

Skyquake87
2018-06-24, 06:50 PM
I'm not sure about the outfit either. It whiffs a bit of Rainbow-era children's presenter. But as my wardrobe largely consists of black, black and more black, I'm not really in a position to question anyone's sartorial choices.

Proof will be in the pudding though and I'm looking forward to see where this goes, all the same :)

Tetsuro
2018-06-24, 09:49 PM
I live for the day when we can all get over some of us having different genitals.
So do I.

inflatable dalek
2018-06-29, 01:32 PM
Well, this is a step in that direction if nothing else.

A clip from her first episode has leaked online for those so inclined.