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Old 2014-11-01, 06:10 PM   #37
inflatable dalek
Duke of Kidderminster
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Kidderminster UK

Originally Posted by Warcry View Post
Unless that's yet another method of faking you out, by invoking something that he knows UK readers will assume is a flat "he's dead".

Actually, I hadn't even entertained the possibility that Trailbreaker was meant to be dead until I came here, read the reactions and saw people making the connection to Legacy. I think that's an art fail though, because in the panel accompanied by the "krik" or whatever, Trailbreaker's brain module looks more like a slightly deformed balloon than something that's been permanently smashed. And we don't see the finished product of the squashing, either. On my first read-through I had the impression that DJD Mary Sue #4 was theatening to smoosh TB's brain, not that he actually had.
I didn't spot the sound effect right off, but I am surprised to see a few people say they didn't immediately think Trailbreaker was supposed to be dead (nearly as much as I was that the people who did assume that were really, really upset about it and that was the reaction that had mildly surprised Roberts), the poor guy's brain module is squished on page, that seems to be trying very, very hard to go "This is a proper death" (though who knows, with a time travel plot coming up...).

Also, if Trailbreaker is dead shouldn't his forcefield have turned off?
I think that works on the same principal as the bit in [I]Chaos Theory[/I[ where Pax is not only able to transform his dead friend but ride his motorbike mode. Some autonomous functions seem to carry on for Transformers even after death.

I disagree. (How shocking, I know!)
I disagree with your disagreement!

There's two rather large differences between the two, IMO. Denyer covered the first. If they'd just taken Megatron out back and shot him...well, that would still be awful but at least it would be reasonably civilized. Instead they undertook to erase everything that made him who he is and replace him with a totally new Government-Approved Person™, because Primus forbid they let a functional miners' chassis go to waste. I just can't accept any argument that erasing people's minds and identities in order to make them happy slaves isn't way, way worse than killing them.
Say that when examining Vos that First Aid had found he had a chemical imbalance in the brain that was the source of his murderous impulses and a simple bit of surgery would completely remove them. Vos in his current state of mind would (literally) violently object to this. Would it be morally wrong for him cut open his head and fix the problem?

Now, obviously Megatron isn't Vos bad at this point in time, but Trepan's stance would be exactly the same- Megs is mentally ill and his consent or not is irrelevant. And that isn't in and of itself a wrong viewpoint, Doctor's, especially when dealing with brain complaints, frequently do have to deal with patients against their will in terms of giving out medication or surgery and doing things that will alter their personalities, usually drastically. That doesn't put them on the same level as executioners.

Trepan is morally wrong of course, but it's not a "Under no circumstances" situation unless all doctors are inherently evil on principal.

But secondly and IMO more importantly -- Megatron hadn't actually done anything yet! He'd been jailed and slated for mind-rape for thoughtcrimes. Vos on the other hand was personally complicit in the brutal, completely unjustifiable murders of over 200 innocent Autobots (and Whirl too!) that we know of, on top of whatever other over-the-top atrocities the DJD have committed against victims on both sides of the conflict in whatever length of time he's been a member. He fully deserved a bullet to the brain.
The thing with Vos is, that even though he's an especially bad example, it's been made very clear at this point that the rest of the Galaxy (and who else can judge the Transformers war crimes from an impartial perspective?) consider both armies to be as bad as each other, Bluestreak himself would probably count as a war criminal by any reasonable standard (indeed, trying to refuse medical aid to a dying enemy soldier would probably count as such), post war can they really count their past crimes against them or is everyone damned equally?

Plus- none of our three know about the ALL at this stage, so that can't come into their debate.

Trailbreaker has tons of guns, forcefields and turns into a rugged SUV, while Kaon is seemingly blind, at least somewhat damaged, has no weapons (given he's got barely any energy, he probably can't charge up his Tesla coils) and turns into a chair. If Trailbreaker hadn't saved Vos I think he would have been able to beat him handily, though since Kaon is part of the *swoon* ultra-badass DJD he may have Mary Sued his way to victory regardless.

...I'm starting to sound like Cliffy, aren't I?
Only in that I'm not sure what you're complaining about .

You've basically imagined a way the scene could have been done quite badly that Roberts has clearly avoided deliberately so as not to make the DJD as insanely Mary Sueish as you fear, and then you've gotten quite annoyed about it. Despite the entire scenario only being in your head- if anything I'd have a word with yourself.

Good people can do bad things in the name of a cause, or in the heat of the moment, but does strain credulity a bit that all of the previously-malevolent main Decepticons are actually really nice guys who were just misunderstood. If it was just Megatron, that would be one thing -- if he was a good guy to start but his message attracted bad people who encouraged him to listen to his darker impulses. But when the people around him are being portrayed as no worse than most of the Autobots, you really start to wonder why scum like Tarn or Turmoil or Overlord were tolerated even for a moment.
Of course, we still don't really know if Megatron's genuinely reformed... As for the others Knightdramon mentioned, I'm not seeing any drastic change in stance here. Starscream has always been a sneaky opportunist, Soundwave has practical common sense about 50% of the time and Shockwave wanted to destroy the entire Universe which seems a pretty strange definition of him being a misunderstood nice guy.

Actually, on a similar note to my random thought about how Pax trying to think things is where things started to go really wrong...

Megatron trying to follow his generally good ideals led to nothing but misery and four million years of war and death. Trailbreaker trying to follow those same ideals and apply them to his own life to give it some meaning resulted in his own horrible death. That's an actually fairly cynical and dark view of self improvement isn't it?
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