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Old 2014-11-07, 04:15 PM   #60
inflatable dalek
Duke of Kidderminster
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Kidderminster UK

On the Vos thing, I thought I'd mentioned this earlier but I must have been thinking about when I talked about it in the pub with Denyer (honestly, I go nine years without meeting the man, now he's just following me around)...

Roberts actually talks about this in the Transmissions podcast I linked to earlier, he deliberately established beforehand that this Vos is a new(ish) member of the team the Autobots don't know about because First Aid knows about Agent 113 and he wanted the medic to be absolutely certain the DJD member they found couldn't be the undercover Autobot so as not to add an extra complication to the basic moral debate.

[If Kaon were 113, that would make an interesting counterpoint to Brainstorm, like all deep cover sleepers they play their role to the hilt even if it means genuinely working against their own real side most of the time.]

Originally Posted by Warcry View Post
Can I just stop for a second and say how awesome it is that a Transformers comic is bringing up discussions like this? It's almost like it's becoming real, grown-up fiction now!
It's lovely isn't it? I didn't mind the over comics this month (and the issue before of RID was actually very good fun), but Roberts is simply working on all sorts of different levels and even when he has a misstep (as all serial fiction writers do from time to time) those are usually more interesting than many other writer's successes.

Obviously I can't speak for those people, but we've got at least two people here (myself and Knightdramon) saying that we didn't get the intending meaning from that panel. And I'm sure there's more. So at the very least, the intended dramatic impact was lost on some of us.
Oh, I'm certainly not saying it's a wrong reading (after all, I've completely failed to get more than my fair share of things in the comics over the years), and the reviewers on the Underbase seem to agree with you about the ambiguity, I just disagree with Knightdramon's suggestion it was "Most" readers, based on twitter the majority seem to have gone with him being very very dead.

And are people seriously freaking out about Trailbreaker dying? I mean...Trailbreaker? Really? He barely even had a personality. It's a bit of a waste to kill him before he got to do anything meaningful, I agree, but it obviously happened for big plot reasons (pushing the LL/DJD confrontation) rather than simply shock value.
It surprised me as well (as said, when I first read Roberts saying he was surprised by the reaction I thought he meant to the moral dilemma), it's hard to judge people's reasoning in just 144 characters, but based on the retweets I saw it's possible people were feeling down about two issues of alternate versions of the characters being shown horribly killed being followed by one of them being horribly killed for real, they think the book has become too dark and stopped being any fun.

For what it may or may not be worth, in reply to the "I won't be reading again" Roberts' responses were along the lines of "I'm sorry to hear that" and "I disagree with your argument but respect your right to think it" rather than even the slightest ambiguous attempt at reassurance like "Keep reading" or "Wait and see", if Trailbreaker isn't really dead he's definitely playing it close to his chest.

The expression on Trepan's face while he's working on Megatron puts the lie to that, IMO. In that moment he's clearly a bully taking a great deal of pleasure exerting his dominance over someone lower on the social totem pole than he is. Likewise, if Froid had any ethics at all he would meet with his patient and try to cure him through noninvasive means before scheduling him for brain surgery. Even the laziest of doctors wouldn't proscribe such drastic treatment without actually examining the patient first.
Chromedome was similarly smug and enjoying lording it up over Overlord when he was in his head (and of course, at the time of these flashbacks was in the same line of work as Trepan), but still personally thought he was doing the right thing. Some people are still just gits even when they think they're working for the greater good.

Actually, the episode made it sound like they couldn't hold it against Worf or order him to do it due to Starfleet's rather idealistic regulations. In fact, I got the impression towards the end that Worf was practically begging Picard to order him because he knew it was the right thing to do but he couldn't do it without an honourable excuse. Starfleet's regulations about personal behaviour seem to be absolutely insane, though, considering how many times their officers (not even just Worf!) are seen to run off and murder foreign nationals and/or commit acts of terrorism against foreign nations with absolutely zero consequences.
I think the not being able to hold it against Worf thing was due to the 24th century humans being such a homogenised dull same minded bunch (look at Riker in the Host, he doesn't even balk at have a slug put in his belly and controlling his body to turn him into Doctor Crusher's sex slave even though that would I say give most normal people at least a moments pause) that the idea of one of them not doing The Right Thing as defined by Federation morality. They have the right to chose but they'd all male the same choice anyway.

Which is of course why Worf so quickly became such a popular character despite being intended to just stand about on the bridge doing nothing, as an alien Roddenbery didn't force him into his post Motion Picture hippy ideals and the guy got to have edges of a sort none of the humans (except possibly Picard, possibly because Stewart just added all sorts of layers to his performance).

At its worst it meant the Klingon was just used to voice whatever stupid violent/bigotted viewpoint the other characters wouldn't be allowed to (The Outcast being the worst example where he suddenly gets the put forward the sexist and possibly homophobic comments out of nowhere) but it overall made him bloody awesome.

I actually think Sisko would have made Worf do it, he seemed to have a lot less patience with indulging his crew generally and tended to be more pragmatic than Picard.

To really tangent, I liked the idea in the SF Debris review of Sins of the Father, where it was pointed out just a few weeks after Worf let a Romulan die he suddenly finds himself the centre of a Romulan plot to break up the Federation/Klingon alliance that should have seen him executed and still winds up with him dishonoured. Looks like he pissed the Romulans off.

I mean, in theory it'd be nice if what you say is true, but in practice they employed Whirl for four million years.
All the really dodgy stuff we've seen Whirl do though has been since he was kicked out of the Wreckers (at least since joining the Autobots anyway) for attempted assisted suicide. Last Stand actually suggest that as tough and nasty as they are they still had to obey rules of war- at least during the time Springer was with them anyway as he's surprised and shocked by Impactor's crossing of the line.
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