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Old 2015-10-08, 07:45 AM   #15
inflatable dalek
Duke of Kidderminster
 
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Originally Posted by Warcry View Post
Actually, given the way early TNG seemed to be mainly about Roddenberry wish-fulfillment, he probably intended that people had "evolved" beyond being bothered when he people ogled them rather than the reverse.
"Nice planet"

Have you seen Chaos on the Bridge? I don't think it covers much you won't know, but it's nice to have a concise summary of all the weird shit and involves a couple of people not on the blu ray features (including Maurice Hurley, though it doesn't really touch on his sexual harassment of McFadden unsurprisingly), and Shatner actually makes a good host, mostly just sitting back and letting the people talk, only really mucking about with Frakes and Ira Steven Behr.

It's interesting that, in order to have at least some balance, they made sure to get someone in who thinks Roddenberry's ideas for TNG were good, but the best they can manage is Brannon Braga who didn't work on season 1.

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Occasionally they'd introduce other mission-specialty uniforms, like the black combat jumpsuits from late DS9 or the engineering jumpsuits in TNG, but all that ever did was make the 95% of missions where they went out in their fancy uniforms stand out all the more.
It's a shame the TMP uniforms were (understandably though as no one checked if they could actually be worn without strangling the actor. As the initial TNG uniforms has the same problem and both were the last overseen by Roddenberry I think he must have had some ideas about future fabrics that just didn't work when made with contemporary materials) canned. They actually had a decent costume budget on that one so there's a lot of variety for different purposes, as there is in real navies of course.

The first film costumes, other than the one that lets you see Decker's unit, actually look a lot better now than they did ten years ago, they've come back around again in terms of style. Kirk especially looks really snazzy in all his outfits, it's unsurprising the admiral's uniform he has on when we first see him has just straight up been reused in the new films.


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Barrett being married to Roddenberry probably helped. I mean, she was probably on-set every week trying to keep him from boning the extras anyway, in the early years...
Next you'll be saying there was a good reason she became such good mates with Marina!

It's sad really, the two main (and I'd say Chapple counts as main cast for the series, she's only really overlooked now because the films dropped her as soon as they dropped Roddenberry) female cast-members on TOS are both women he had affairs with.

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Shelby was fantastic, though. I've always wondered was how the later seasons of TNG would have turned out in an alternate universe where Patrick Stewart didn't manage to hash out a new contract and Picard was killed off for real. The Enterprise would have been a very different place with Captain Riker and Commander Shelby as the leads...
I suspect they'd have just promoted Data to first officer, considering he would have been the most popular character left on the show by a big margin, not increasing his role wouldn't have been very likely. Especially as the female characters tend to get poor treatment on TNG anyway.

What I like about Shelby is that there's a nice balance there between her being absolutely right (Riker has not only stagnated, his stubbornness to take the next step is actually hurting the careers of those below him) and her being a bit of a dick (she's so myopic about promotion she seems more worried about that than being turned into a borg). There was a lot of potential there.


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But they tossed in just enough references to the war to make it feel weird. If Crazy Admiral #872 doesn't go on about how the Federation needs to screw over the Space Elves because it'd help with the war effort (...how, exactly?) or talk about how the Son'a are vital wartime allies, it would be easy to assume that it was set before or after the war (which only lasted, what, two years?) Especially now that enough time has passed that most people don't remember it was released during the last couple years of DS9. But by explicitly setting it during the war, the movie lives in this weird corner where dicking around spying on a handful of hippies and trying to steal their pixie dust is somehow more important than the conflict that sees core Federation members occupied and bombarded from orbit with regularity.
Though I've a feeling it's the only Trek film without a stardate (no Captain's log), so we can just imagine it's set earlier.


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This really stuck out too. Like...his wife just died a few months ago and nobody even offers him condolences. Though none of the Enterprise crew were invited to the wedding, so I suppose they might still be a bit pissy over that...
Yeah, at least a nod might have been nice, and given Worf something actually related to his character rather than half arsed comedy. I remember interviews Dorn did at the time to promote the film where he was... decidedly unimpressed. Understandably considering that by that time Worf had already been in more Star Trek than anyone else, which you'd think would mean his character would actually be treated with respect by the film. Or even than his character would be in the film (hey, remember the time Worf refused to disobey Kira's order in Waltz even though it meant abandoning the search for Sisko, presumably leaving him for dead? How how he basically told Bashir to STFU for saying some things are more important than orders? Is this the guy who'd defy Star Fleet?).


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Speaking of the Defiant and First Contact, am I the only one who'll forever be disappointed that they didn't use that as an excuse to rope O'Brien into a TNG movie? I know he wasn't main cast, but he was just as important to the really good middle seasons as Crusher or Geordi. And, hell, they managed to fit Barclay in... It was also sort of a shame that Guinan never did anything after Generations, though the Enterprise-E didn't really seem to have a civilian complement on it the way the old Galaxy-class ship did. But how much more meaning would that Ahab speech have carried if it came from Picard's old friend instead of some random chick that they picked up the night before?
Meany would have been great, though considering both that it was shot between seasons and that he's the only one out of the lot of them at that time with a film career (and apart from Stewart, still the only one) he was almost certainly shooting a mid-budget Irish film at the time.

Of course, it is silly that normally the Defiant can't go anywhere without taking the entire senior crew with it yet Worf is the only one here, despite Sisko being mega pissed with the Borg.

The two theories I've heard on this I really like are:

1: The Borg waited until Sisko was in the Badlands with Eddington as they know the battle would last about five minutes with him around ("RESISTANCE IS FUTILE...he's gone right?").

2: Worf was actually running away from Keiko as he was terrified of having to deliver another baby and just stumbled across the Borg by accident.

Mind, if O'Brien had been aboard he'd probably have done to Geordi what the EMH does to Crusher and completely steal their part of the film from them.

Barclay was actually in the script for Insurrection at one point (seemingly hanging around the bridge with Riker during the nebula battle) before an exec said maybe it would be nice if Geordi had some lines in the movie.

If it's still out there the PDF of Piller's unpublished book about the writing of Insurrection is well worth tracking down. It completely kills a lot of fan myths about the film, in particular that the film was ruined by studio interference and by Stewart and Spiner's demands.

In fact, every single suggestion made by these people was either to the beterment of the film or should have been followed. The suits worked out the Baku dilemma didn't work, Spiner was unhappy with the way Data was written feeling it regressed the character badly, Stewart never rejected the original "Heart of Darkness" script out of hand (Berman rejected it because he thought Stewart would say no, which isn't the same thing and the actor never saw it).

They simply weren't listened too enough, probably as a result of the success of First Contact giving Berman the clout to push things through his way.

Seriously, how often can you say about a failed movie "They should have listened to the executives more"? It's actually quite sad at the end, Piller fights so hard against these outside influences to make the script he wants... and the reaction from the public is a general shoulder shrug and overall agreement with the suggestions he fought against. It's a great shame the career of a man who did so much to save TNG ended with him delivering a blow to the kneecaps from which their films never quite recovered.

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And on a similar note, I know that Forbes turned down a starring role on DS9 because she didn't want to commit to a series for seven years, but I really wish they'd been able to bring Ro in for a guest shot every once in a while. She and Kira would have gotten along like a house on fire.
I guess she pretty much burnt her bridges with first the reluctance to keep coming back and then turning down the DS9 gig. Shame, Forbes is never less than fantastic. As well as BSG her episode of the New Outer Limits is well worth tracking down, it's one of the good ones and she's fantastic in it.


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Deadpan Spock at his finest.
Data man! Data!


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I wouldn't have been upset to see Sela appear in the film, but certainly not as the lead. She just wasn't good enough to carry it off. Swapping her in instead of Donatra, on the other hand, would have been cool.
Yeah, giving her a small role (the Romulan Captain who does the Han Solo and turns up to save the day in the middle of the battle but then winds up being a shit Han Solo because her ship is taken out almost immediately?), just to get the entire opening credits cast in there in some capacity.


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Which he wasn't, not even a little. If anything, he felt like a character that wandered out of 24...
Well, other than him having a planet destroying super weapon and being out for revenge for both the death of his wife and the devastating effect an exploding planet had on his life.

Mind, he's also worryingly like the villain from Nemesis. But he was criticised for being a poor man's Khan as well.


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Oh, and on New Frontier, I read the initial mini-series and the next two full length books, but lost track of it after that and it looks a rather hard series to just jump into.
 
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