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Old 2015-10-09, 06:13 AM   #20
Warcry
Likes Beast Wars toys. A lot.
 
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Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Originally Posted by Cyberstrike nTo View Post
IIRC Guinan was in Star Trek: Nemesis although it might have been in a deleted scene at the wedding where someone (it might have been Wesley Crusher) asked her if she had any thoughts on re-marrying and she makes a crack "No. the 20th time was enough for me" or something to that effect.
I'm 90% that her and Wesley's lines all wound up deleted. It's a shame really...with it being the last outing of the TNG era, if it was going to suck anyway they really needed to just say "screw it", go full fanwank mode and cram in every single familiar face that they could. Hell, throw Guinan in as bartender again and have Wesley fly the ship. They didn't bother to explain why Worf was in uniform again, so it's not like those things would have been any more ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Cyberstrike nTo View Post
I think if a lot of the deleted scenes (that aren't just pure fan wanks) were added back in to Nemesis it actually make more sense continuity wise.
The one time that I watched the deleted scenes, I remembered thinking how much better they were than anything that actually made it into the finished film.

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Originally Posted by Cyberstrike nTo View Post
I've always thought the best way to explain why Worf is there is that he should've been a guest at wedding (which would make the most sense)
Wait, you mean he wasn't? I always assumed he was because absolutely nothing else makes any sense at all.

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Originally Posted by Tetsuro View Post
I wouldn't be so sure about that. They're all shit, but Nemesis also happens to be the finale of the TNG era in general.

Which is kinda like if B.O.T. had been the last Transformers episode ever
Fair point. If Nemesis had been the fourth TNG movie out of six I don't think people would hate on it nearly as much. But as the grand finale for the crew that we all grew up with, it's pretty galling.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Have you seen Chaos on the Bridge? I don't think it covers much you won't know, but it's nice to have a concise summary of all the weird shit and involves a couple of people not on the blu ray features (including Maurice Hurley, though it doesn't really touch on his sexual harassment of McFadden unsurprisingly), and Shatner actually makes a good host, mostly just sitting back and letting the people talk, only really mucking about with Frakes and Ira Steven Behr.
I've never heard of it, actually, but it sounds super interesting. I'll have to track it down!

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
It's interesting that, in order to have at least some balance, they made sure to get someone in who thinks Roddenberry's ideas for TNG were good, but the best they can manage is Brannon Braga who didn't work on season 1.
I actually do think at least some of Roddenberry's ideas were good. It's his execution that I have a problem with. By the time TNG rolled around he was a crazy old man who wasn't anywhere near as much of a visionary filmmaker as everyone had told him he was for the previous couple decades. He was much like George Lucas, really...lots and lots of good ideas, but clearly in need of a strong moderating influence that could pull his head out of his ass once in a while.

The biggest problem with the utopian Federation that he'd envisioned was that it was boring if you took it at face value, and he was too idealistic to score points by subverting it like late TNG and DS9 did. The concept really took off once the idea that even paradise wasn't perfect took hold. Seeing Picard or Sisko grapple with hard decisions and figure out how to uphold their morals and save the day is way more interesting than Picard smugly monologuing to aliens about how inferior they were until they got bored and went home.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
The first film costumes, other than the one that lets you see Decker's unit, actually look a lot better now than they did ten years ago, they've come back around again in terms of style. Kirk especially looks really snazzy in all his outfits, it's unsurprising the admiral's uniform he has on when we first see him has just straight up been reused in the new films.
After Googling, I'm going to have to disagree on that. Kirk's admiral's outfit does look pretty cool but everyone else looks like they're in pajamas. I do like the variety on display but when everything is awful that's only a small point in its favour.

I think they'd look immeasurably better with the small addition of a dark belt, though, so it's not a total loss.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
It's sad really, the two main (and I'd say Chapple counts as main cast for the series, she's only really overlooked now because the films dropped her as soon as they dropped Roddenberry) female cast-members on TOS are both women he had affairs with.
And then the third most prominent female character was axed after her actress was sexually assaulted by one of the show's execs. Sadly not a surprise, since the man in charge set the tone by treating his actresses as sex objects that only existed for his own pleasure (and shit, for all we know he could have been the guy who did it...). Not really surprising that the same attitude was able to flourish during the first season of TNG either.

I had no idea Christine Chapel was in as many episodes of the show as Chekov. Yeah, hard to disagree that she was a regular when she was in almost half of the show. I don't think she's forgotten just because she was dropped from the films, though. I think it's mostly because Majel has had far more memorable roles in the TNG-era stuff, both as Lwaxana and the ship's computer. Chapel was there a lot but rarely actually did anything (a description that covers most of the original series crew beyond the big three and Scotty).

What really shocked me, though, is that Mr. Leslie was in more episodes than Chekov or Sulu, and only six fewer than Scotty.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
I suspect they'd have just promoted Data to first officer, considering he would have been the most popular character left on the show by a big margin, not increasing his role wouldn't have been very likely. Especially as the female characters tend to get poor treatment on TNG anyway.
That wouldn't have been a terrible choice either, since Data in a command position is always interesting. Though honestly, if Shelby wasn't the backup plan then I'm inclined to wonder just what she was there for to begin with.

To be honest, as much as I love The Best of Both Worlds (and I love it a lot -- it might just be my favourite Trek story ever, especially if you include Family as a coda) the ending is a bit disappointing for me because it basically kills Riker as a character. I actually think that the title refers to him -- he wanted to be captain but he also wanted to stay with the Enterprise "family", and at the start he's struggling to decide between the two. And then Picard is gone so he gets to have both, and he's left to deal with the guilt of having it all at the cost of another man's life. It's a great character piece for him and he grows so much over the course of those two episodes. But then we need to restore the status quo for the next episode, so they back down from the development that he experienced here and for the next four seasons there's literally nowhere to go with the character. It's just one of those things that I think they would have been able to handle much better in today's TV environment.

To your other point, I've honestly never been able to figure out why Data was so popular. The character is written so inconsistently. Like how he "can't feel any emotions" in spite of curiosity and the desire for self-improvement being the absolute core of the character. I'd be fine with that if there was some room left for us to say "of course he can, he's just so unaware of himself that he doesn't realize" but the script treats it like a factual truth even though we've seen so many times that it's clearly not. I mean, the guy has friends, a desire for self-preservation and self-determination, an insatiable desire to learn, a deep interest in how others' minds work -- none of those things would be true if there wasn't emotion behind them. But yet the show keeps telling us that, no, he's got no feelings just because he doesn't shout at people or get all mushy with members of the opposite sex (except that one time...) The whole thing is a huge middle finger to the core Trek idea that we should respect people's differences...he's clearly got emotions, but they just don't count because they're not the same as ours. As if Data is broken because he's different and he won't be right until what makes him unique is gone and replaced with a cookie-cutter human. And then they don't even have the guts to stick to their guns about that, and after he gains a lot of humanity over the first two films they immediately roll it back for the last two with no explanation given.

Brent Spiner is fantastic and he does a great job with whatever he's given, but what he's given is crap far too often. Its a credit to him really, with a lesser actor in that role Data would have been completely intolerable instead of just likeable-but-disappointing.

On the other hand I love Worf, and the script shits on him nearly as much. So who am I to talk?

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
What I like about Shelby is that there's a nice balance there between her being absolutely right (Riker has not only stagnated, his stubbornness to take the next step is actually hurting the careers of those below him) and her being a bit of a dick (she's so myopic about promotion she seems more worried about that than being turned into a borg). There was a lot of potential there.
Yep, that's a great summation of what's so great about her. She's easily the best part of New Frontier for those same reasons, constantly struggling to balance her ambitions against what's right and never quite sure if she's second-guessing her captain because he's an insane savage or because she just wants that fourth pip on her collar.

But for the two episodes that she was on-screen, she had more nuance to her than half of the TNG crew got over seven seasons and four movies.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Yeah, at least a nod might have been nice, and given Worf something actually related to his character rather than half arsed comedy. I remember interviews Dorn did at the time to promote the film where he was... decidedly unimpressed. Understandably considering that by that time Worf had already been in more Star Trek than anyone else, which you'd think would mean his character would actually be treated with respect by the film. Or even than his character would be in the film (hey, remember the time Worf refused to disobey Kira's order in Waltz even though it meant abandoning the search for Sisko, presumably leaving him for dead? How how he basically told Bashir to STFU for saying some things are more important than orders? Is this the guy who'd defy Star Fleet?).
I don't mind the idea of Worf defying Starfleet in the right situations. He was willing to abandon Sisko because it was the honourable thing to do. They were in the middle of a war zone, other lives were at stake and Sisko would have never wanted his rescue to come at the cost of a convoy of troops. In a different situation, when the ship's main mission was something unimportant, he probably would have agreed with Bashir.

Disobeying orders to save the Baku from obliteration is completely different, and honestly it's probably the sort of thing that he would have argued for on TNG only for Picard to shoot him down because of the Prime Directive.

Using him for bad jokes, on the other hand, was pretty disrespectful to the character and actor. By that point he'd been on ten seasons of TV and two movies, and he deserved a lot more respect than that.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Meany would have been great, though considering both that it was shot between seasons and that he's the only one out of the lot of them at that time with a film career (and apart from Stewart, still the only one) he was almost certainly shooting a mid-budget Irish film at the time.
A fat Hollywood payday probably would have lured him away, though.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Of course, it is silly that normally the Defiant can't go anywhere without taking the entire senior crew with it yet Worf is the only one here, despite Sisko being mega pissed with the Borg.
I kinda figure that Sisko got the same treatment as Picard, the whole "no, you stay away, you're too emotionally invested for us to trust you" deal. Though that doesn't explain where O'Brien, Dax, Bashir or Kira are.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Mind, if O'Brien had been aboard he'd probably have done to Geordi what the EMH does to Crusher and completely steal their part of the film from them.
Not necessarily. He might have gotten tossed in with Picard's crew aboard-ship rather than the group on the surface. I'm not entirely sure what he could have done, but even if he just replaced the random security goon (who it turns out actually had a name, one Lt. Daniels) it would have been nice to see him.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Seriously, how often can you say about a failed movie "They should have listened to the executives more"?
That's pretty close to a kiss of death. If the suits have better ideas than the creative types, the creatives should probably retire.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
I guess she pretty much burnt her bridges with first the reluctance to keep coming back and then turning down the DS9 gig. Shame, Forbes is never less than fantastic. As well as BSG her episode of the New Outer Limits is well worth tracking down, it's one of the good ones and she's fantastic in it.
Totally agreed. I've loved her in everything I've seen her in, no matter how big or small the role. Even though she was only in it for a few episodes, Forbes' Admiral Cain is easily one of my favourite parts of the new BSG.

(And since you were perving on her earlier, I feel obliged to point out that the lady aged like a fine wine...)

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Data man! Data!
Eh. Basically the same character, right?

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Mind, he's also worryingly like the villain from Nemesis. But he was criticised for being a poor man's Khan as well.
Where Shinzon is concerned, though, I'm pretty sure it was on purpose. One of the biggest problems with the movie is that it tries to riff on The Wrath of Khan far, far too much.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Oh, and on New Frontier, I read the initial mini-series and the next two full length books, but lost track of it after that and it looks a rather hard series to just jump into.
Others might disagree, but I'd say you've already read the best parts of it.
 
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