View Single Post
Old 2015-10-16, 03:56 PM   #37
inflatable dalek
Duke of Kidderminster
 
inflatable dalek's Avatar
 
Kidderminster UK
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Warcry View Post
Fair point. If the director isn't into it, that's going to hurt things a fair bit. It's kind of a shame that they couldn't either find a script the director liked, or find a director that liked the script. I can understand why they didn't want to fire one of the main cast of the film from direction duties, though.
Siritis is even more scathing of it, which has a degree of irony considering she probably gets more to do overall than in the other three (even if her defining film moment is in FC). IIRC She even says she fell asleep at the premier, much as Jimmy Doohan did during Generations.


Quote:
I think part of why Khan was so good is that it ignored a bunch of the stuff in your first paragraph, though. I honestly can't remember if Sulu and Uhura even have lines, though I'm sure they did. And I only remember Scotty from that stupid "take the dead cadet's body up to the bridge" scene (that was his nephew IIRC, but I don't think the final film mentioned it), with Saavik "stealing" their screen time instead. And the plot wasn't self-contained, instead being built on the foundations of an old TV episode. I think that gave them a whole lot more room to maneuver.
I think their their presence (bar Scotty, who as you say had the emotional resonance of him moment cut out. I just assumed the turbo lift was broken and took him to the bridge rather than sickbay by mistake) is roughly right for an average episode of the show. III is the first to really strive to make it a full ensemble, in that case because of no Nimoy creating a whole, but it carries on for the next three. Even if none of them like their moments in V!

I think one of the strengths of Khan (and FC mostly pulls it off as well), if that despite being a sequel it still works as a standalone. It's basically no different from a cop film where the guy they put away years ago comes back to get them.

Quote:
Apparently it was his idea too. I remember reading that he contacted the producers after one of the other cast members told him that they were making another TNG film and that it'd be the last one.
IIRC Levar Burton suggested he should try and get in it when they were on the Weakest Link.

Quote:
I always thought that writing the character out with "he's a Traveller now LOL" was silly, because it was such a random about-face for the guy. It's a shame they didn't end his arc differently so that he could have actually, properly been in one of the movies. It would have been cool to see an adult Wesley actually do something.
Plus it's a dreary episode as well, part of that 90's American TV thing of "Boy we were racist towards the Indians. Let's make up for it by patronising!" trend.


Quote:
The same general thing happens a few times in the series if memory serves, although they usually find a way to fix things anyway.

In a real-world sense I don't disagree with the "not our problem, warp nine to the next system!" policy towards crises like this. The Federation's mandate is to take care of Federation citizens, not spend their resources fixing problems outside of their borders. Non-interference is the only practical way of dealing with things, because if you help one species you're going to have fifty more banging down your door, and if you don't/can't help them then suddenly you're making yourself new enemies.

It's trying to wrap it up as a moral choice that gets my hackles up. The Prime Directive is usually a good rule, but the almost religious fervour that Picard defends it with is a bit unsettling. There's no valid argument where letting millions of innocents die is morally right, only scenarios where letting it happen is better for Federation interests. The other captains never seemed to have that same devotion to it, thankfully, so it's mostly a "Picard" issue and not a sign of the entire Federation being brainwashed.
Yeah, not trying to save everyone outside their borders is sensible, especially with planet destroying disasters being so common in Trek, but when they go to watch the planet self destruct and put people on the surface to look at the people before they die but don't lift a finger to do anything they're just dicks.


Quote:
As a kid I always got super-excited for the two-parters whenever they came up, and I still have a soft spot for some of them (the Klingon civil war and that Mark Twain one) but for the most part they are some of the weakest parts of the series.
Oh yes, there was always something exciting about double length episodes that's been lost in these days of increased serialisation. Kids today, eh?


Quote:
Though at the same time, playing Tom Riker could have given Frakes so much more to do that the billing would have been justified again.
Mind, both O'Brien and Harry Kim got replaced by doubles during the course of their series and no one ever noticed or ever mentioned it again, so maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.


Quote:
The score is great, but the lighting, costumes and set design are a big part of it too. They obviously put a huge amount of work into making the Borg terrifying, and it worked in a way that the later, CGI-driven attempts in Voyager never really did.
Oh yes. HD has mostly been very kind on TNG. Planet Hell looks even ropier, but for a series that's been so dismissed as being beige and dull to look at, just how bright and colourful the show is and how well the models and costumes (mostly) stand up was a revelation.

Quote:
Part of why Best of Both Worlds works so well for me is that it was way more character-driven than anything that happened in TNG prior. It handles the crew's loss of a comrade with way more force than any of the one-and-done "Picard/Data/some other guy is missing or presumed dead" episodes that we got, and actually shows how important these people are to one another. It also tells you more about the sort of person that Riker is than the entire series up to that point (or rather, the person he grew into over three years), has one of the first actually good moments of Troi counselling someone, etc, etc. It also shows how much Data has grown, by making an intuitive leap that early Data never could have managed during his chat with Locutus.
Mostly bang on, though I don't think Troi actually helps Riker with his decision beyond rubbing his face in it about having gotten older.

Quote:
Even by the books' timeline I'm pretty sure that's still true. In fact I think she made admiral before Riker made captain.
Oh that's hilarious!

I know one of the big ideas of Trek is that everyone is happy and can live the lives they want. But lots of people want to be first officer on the Enterprise, it's really not fair of Riker to hog it as long as he did.


Quote:
How new at it could he have been, though? He was already a lieutenant commander in Starfleet, thought highly enough of to be made second officer of the fleet's biggest, newest and most important starship. He would have gone through the academy, plus time as an ensign, lieutenant junior grade and lieutenant before the series started (assuming he was promoted to lieutenant commander when he was chosen for the Enterprise job). Since Starfleet is based on the US Navy I looked up their rules, and apparently you need to have nine years of service before you qualify for promotion to lieutenant commander. Add on four years at the academy and he'd have been in Starfleet for at least thirteen years (indeed, the novels and such say he was around for much longer than that because he wasn't very ambitious and didn't seek out promotions the way a Riker would).
Star Fleet is actually promotion happy it seems. Nog went from first year cadet to Lt. in four years (yes, there was a war, but there was at least one brutal nasty war prior to the start of TNG. Even if no one ever mentioned the Cardassians until 30 seconds before they first appeared), Wesley got to be an full ensign without going to the academy (presumably if Wheaton had stayed it would have been a permanent position) and thanks to poor continuity there's internal evidence in the original series Kirk was a Lt. before leaving the academy (annoyingly I know one of the episodes that contradic each other is Court Martial but I can't remember the other!).

Plus nu Kirk went from cadet to Captain instantly (and it almost makes sense considering the rest of Star Fleet has virtually be wiped out. It's just a bit too ludicrous a lead. And makes Riker not keeping his promotion in similar circumstances even similar).

I actually really like how Data handles command whenever we see him in a position to do so, he has a nice brisk no-nonsense style that works. He handles that dick in Redemption well (despite the forced drama in him not just going "Data to Enterprise, I have a solution to our problem, please hold") and dealt with Worf's grumpiness well in Gambit.

He's also the only one of the bridge crew to act like a grown up around Jericho (though to be fair, Geordi seems to be coming round by the end). It's actually embarrassing to see Riker throwing his toys out the pram at having to deal with a different command style. Certainl Jericho comes over much better in their big confrontation, allowing ranks to be dropped so Riker can get everything off his chest in one go and making the grovelling apology needed to get Riker to do the job. All whilst Will is insanely smug (I wonder if Geordi was lying about him being the best pilot just to help his mate out?!).

Oddly the Federation have a clear distrust of robots and artificial intelligence in general, neither are as advanced as you'd expect and how often do you get variants on the "Put it on manual, this needs human intuition!" scene? As with genetics, something must have happened there.

Indeed, how often did Data get shown up because he didn't have a "Gut"? Troi beat him at chess! In a scene written by someone who has never played chess (try doing a game just following your gut instinct).

Quote:
I'd tend to think that the writers agreed with you. The show itself explained away a lot of its' own supernatural trappings, though. From the beginning the Prophets were just non-linear aliens with weird tech living in a wormhole, and I don't think they ever did anything that we hadn't seen accomplished with normal technology by other aliens in other shows.
Though there is a shift in that Sisko pretty much emphatically comes to believe in them as Prophets/Gods (there's also a shift in how they behave, in the pilot they're accidental gods who just want to be left alone. By series end... well they're basically the Vorlons from Babylon 5).
 
inflatable dalek is offline   Reply With Quote