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Old 2015-10-16, 06:06 PM   #38
Warcry
Likes Beast Wars toys. A lot.
 
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Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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Originally Posted by Tetsuro View Post
Well, apart from wiping out the whole Dominion fleet when they entered the wormhole, but considering that was squarely their domain...I guess that's the reason I'm more tolerant towards the idea than he was, because while the Bajorans do treat them as actual gods, they're pretty much still in the same category as all the other non-corporeal lifeforms we'd seen in the past, like the Organians for example.
More or less. The Dominion fleet isn't exactly the first thing to get lost in the wormhole...IIRC at least one guy gets transported through time by it, and I'm pretty sure other stuff just disappeared or disabled from time to time. They could have sent the Jem'Hadar somewhere else entirely, or maybe they're still in there getting into confusing arguments with ephemeral versions of all the Vorta and Founders that they've met.

In spite of their highly alien nature and extreme power levels, there's a "science" of sorts to what the Prophets can and can't do that makes rational sense, so like you say they fall into the "really advanced aliens" category for me. They can't just snap their fingers and make anything happen the way Q or Apollo did.

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Originally Posted by Tetsuro View Post
Plus I liked the whole juxtaposition between them, the closest thing to an actual god-like creature, to the Founders who simply bought into their own propaganda and thought they were gods.
The contrast between them was one of my favourite parts of the series as well. Though the argument could be made...the Prophets just sat in their ivory tower and never did shit aside from raping Sisko's mom so that he'd be born and do their busywork. Their "relationship" with Bajor was strictly one-way and they didn't even seem to be aware of it. The Founders actually created life and gave it purpose, elevating the Vorta from simple monkeys to a highly-intelligent sentient race and creating the Jem'Hadar out of nothing. So which of them are the real gods after all?

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Originally Posted by Cyberstrike nTo View Post
IIRC in that episode Dr. Crusher explains that she realizes that are a million little problems moving that clan to a new planet. Ranging from them finding food to disease to climate to dangerous lifeforms to other intelligent inhabitants. Is that basically the crew are being forced to play God with this clan.
That sounds familiar, yeah. Though a lot of the problems are due to the subterfuge rather than the move itself. If the aliens were aware of what was happening they could have worked together with them to solve all of those little issues, but keeping them in the dark about what was actually going on (in order to "preserve their culture", a futile endeavour when you plan to take them away from everything that made that culture possible to begin with) made that impossible.

The problems cut both ways, too -- introducing an alien species to a new environment usually has disastrous consequences for that environment as well, wether or not the new species is intelligent. The aliens could well destroy the local ecosystem just by being there.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Plus it's a dreary episode as well, part of that 90's American TV thing of "Boy we were racist towards the Indians. Let's make up for it by patronising!" trend.
Ironically, I just watched this episode last night. Holy shit is it awful! And even more racist than the old media portrayals they were trying to make up for. Everyone calls the colonists "Indians" even though that was already an outdated, sorta-offensive term in the 1990s, even the Cardassians (who surely wouldn't care about aliens' ethnic background while trying to evict them). There's absolutely no mention of what their actual tribal background is, and indeed the episode gives them a culture that's basically a mishmash of old, half-understood Hollywood "spiritual injun" tropes (though this is the show that treats France and England as basically the same place, so they've got form for this). Everyone is running around in buckskin vests and other such stereotypical clothing. Tom Jackson's spiritual leader character wanders around spouting empty homilies for 45 minutes before it turns out he's actually a white guy in disguise because god forbid a minority guest star have impact on the plot. Frankly I'm surprised nobody tried to scalp the Cardassians they took hostage. And then the whole thing was resolved off-screen by the colonists agreeing to live on a 24-century Indian Reserve in Cardassian territory.

And yet somehow the Wesley B-plot managed to be even worse.

Admiral Nachayev was always awesome, though, so the episode at least had that going for it.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Mind, both O'Brien and Harry Kim got replaced by doubles during the course of their series and no one ever noticed or ever mentioned it again, so maybe it wouldn't have made a difference.
I was about to say "no, the O'Brien double got killed", until I realized that it happened twice to him, maybe three times.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Mostly bang on, though I don't think Troi actually helps Riker with his decision beyond rubbing his face in it about having gotten older.
I don't know about that. She didn't help him decide per se, but she cut through a lot of the bullshit that he was going in circles about and made him focus on what was actually important. "What do you want, Will Riker?". None of the "oh I'm too comfortable here!" or "I wanted to be captain before I turned 30!" nonsense, but what would actually make him happy.

Even though I wish they'd gone in a different direction with the character, I think that conversation was what made Riker realize that he wasn't as ambitious as he used to be, that he was really happy with the life he had now, and most importantly that it was okay to feel that way. I mean, we all had our dreams when we were kids but how many of us really want to be the boss at work once we're grown up and realize how much extra trouble it is?

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
I know one of the big ideas of Trek is that everyone is happy and can live the lives they want. But lots of people want to be first officer on the Enterprise, it's really not fair of Riker to hog it as long as he did.
Right, but by that logic Picard should have retired so that Riker could be captain. So it was Jean-Luc's fault all along!

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Star Fleet is actually promotion happy it seems. Nog went from first year cadet to Lt. in four years (yes, there was a war, but there was at least one brutal nasty war prior to the start of TNG. Even if no one ever mentioned the Cardassians until 30 seconds before they first appeared), Wesley got to be an full ensign without going to the academy (presumably if Wheaton had stayed it would have been a permanent position) and thanks to poor continuity there's internal evidence in the original series Kirk was a Lt. before leaving the academy (annoyingly I know one of the episodes that contradic each other is Court Martial but I can't remember the other!).
I don't know enough about the original series to really comment on Kirk, but Saavik was definitely a Lieutenant and a cadet at the same time. A lot of the secondary sources at the time (novels and such) made it seem like people went to the Academy for a while, then dicked around as ensigns, then picked a specialty and went back to the academy to train some more (hence Chekov being head of security in TMP in spite of having nothing to do with it in the TV series).

Nog, as you say, was a wartime promotion. Considering the amount of casualties going around I'd imagine there were tons of those. After all, losing 100 ships in a single battle apparently wasn't unusual. On the other hand, I don't think Wesley's rank would have been recognized outside of the Enterprise chain of command, just like all the Maquis that Janeway slapped officers' ranks on probably would have raised some eyebrows once Voyager got home. Obviously they would have handwaved it if the actor hadn't quit, but the way it worked out actually made a lot of sense -- Wesley had an entry-level position on the Enterprise, but to advance his career beyond that he had to give it up and take a step back. But in Nog's case Starfleet had lost so many good officers that they really had no choice but to keep promoting people even if their formal training was cut short.

Re: the Cardassian war, the only thing that makes any sense to me is that it was akin to the first Gulf War -- a big deal to the smaller power that got its' shit kicked in, but much less of a worry for the bigger, more advanced Federation. The Cardies just never seemed to be much of a threat, and their technology (as we saw in DS9) was way behind Federation standard. Just based on what we saw, pre-Dominion I'd guess they were more on par with the technology of Kirk's era than Picard's.

The Klingons curb-stomped them pretty effortlessly too, when it came down to it, even when it seemed like they weren't actually trying that hard to do so.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Plus nu Kirk went from cadet to Captain instantly (and it almost makes sense considering the rest of Star Fleet has virtually be wiped out. It's just a bit too ludicrous a lead. And makes Riker not keeping his promotion in similar circumstances even similar).
And then from captain back down to cadet at the start of the second one, because reasons. The new movies are idiotic on that front though, so I can't take anything they've got to say seriously.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
I actually really like how Data handles command whenever we see him in a position to do so, he has a nice brisk no-nonsense style that works. He handles that dick in Redemption well (despite the forced drama in him not just going "Data to Enterprise, I have a solution to our problem, please hold") and dealt with Worf's grumpiness well in Gambit.
Yeah, if I was in Starfleet I would love to serve under Captain Data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
He's also the only one of the bridge crew to act like a grown up around Jericho (though to be fair, Geordi seems to be coming round by the end). It's actually embarrassing to see Riker throwing his toys out the pram at having to deal with a different command style. Certainl Jericho comes over much better in their big confrontation, allowing ranks to be dropped so Riker can get everything off his chest in one go and making the grovelling apology needed to get Riker to do the job. All whilst Will is insanely smug (I wonder if Geordi was lying about him being the best pilot just to help his mate out?!).
Worf actually got along pretty well with Jellico too, didn't he? Although the chance to bust Cardassian heads might have had something to do with that.

That whole scenario was hilarious, because Jellico proved to be a better captain than Picard ever would have been in the same situation -- I mean, Picard never would have been ruthless enough to do what Jellico did and resolve the situation without a fight, because Picard never would have been willing to blow up fifty Cardassian warships with hidden bombs if his bluff got called. Riker meanwhile was a petulant child, and spent the whole two-parter pouting because he wasn't chosen to be captain while Picard was away (well gee Will, maybe you shouldn't have turned down all those promotions then if you want to be captain so badly...). Even Geordi was constantly pouting about having some of his staff reassigned, as if security wasn't important and they wouldn't need armed, trained officers if a war broke out. Meanwhile Data and Worf, the only two people on the ship who actually act like they understand how serious the situation is, thrive under him and probably would have loved it if he'd stayed.

It's funny that so much of the fandom (and even the novels, like New Frontier) make Jellico out to be this completely unreasonable tool, when honestly, he seemed like a great guy to work for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Indeed, how often did Data get shown up because he didn't have a "Gut"? Troi beat him at chess! In a scene written by someone who has never played chess (try doing a game just following your gut instinct).
Kind of ironic, considering how invincible modern chess software is even against grand champions.
 
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