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Old 2015-10-17, 03:46 PM   #39
inflatable dalek
Duke of Kidderminster
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Kidderminster UK

Originally Posted by Warcry View Post
In spite of their highly alien nature and extreme power levels, there's a "science" of sorts to what the Prophets can and can't do that makes rational sense, so like you say they fall into the "really advanced aliens" category for me. They can't just snap their fingers and make anything happen the way Q or Apollo did.
I always thought it was a shame that for the last season the original "Prophets speak through the appearance of suspiciously appropriate people" idea was dropped for "The Prophets speak through the form of Sisko's played by a bad actress mother".

The contrast between them was one of my favourite parts of the series as well. Though the argument could be made...the Prophets just sat in their ivory tower and never did shit aside from raping Sisko's mom so that he'd be born and do their busywork. Their "relationship" with Bajor was strictly one-way and they didn't even seem to be aware of it. The Founders actually created life and gave it purpose, elevating the Vorta from simple monkeys to a highly-intelligent sentient race and creating the Jem'Hadar out of nothing. So which of them are the real gods after all?
Thankfully the show never flat out said it, but the general fan assumption used to be that the Prophets were the future evolved form of the Bajorans ("We are of Bajor").

Ironically, I just watched this episode last night. Holy shit is it awful! And even more racist than the old media portrayals they were trying to make up for. Everyone calls the colonists "Indians" even though that was already an outdated, sorta-offensive term in the 1990s, even the Cardassians (who surely wouldn't care about aliens' ethnic background while trying to evict them). There's absolutely no mention of what their actual tribal background is, and indeed the episode gives them a culture that's basically a mishmash of old, half-understood Hollywood "spiritual injun" tropes (though this is the show that treats France and England as basically the same place, so they've got form for this). Everyone is running around in buckskin vests and other such stereotypical clothing. Tom Jackson's spiritual leader character wanders around spouting empty homilies for 45 minutes before it turns out he's actually a white guy in disguise because god forbid a minority guest star have impact on the plot. Frankly I'm surprised nobody tried to scalp the Cardassians they took hostage. And then the whole thing was resolved off-screen by the colonists agreeing to live on a 24-century Indian Reserve in Cardassian territory.
In slight mitigation, according to The Companion they did consult whatever the representative body of Native American culture is in America (I forget the exact name, King of the Indians? Sadie?) and were assured "Indian" was OK to use, but were asked to change to script so it wasn't a specific tribe featured in the episode.

Maybe they were taking the piss? Or just out of touch with general Native American feeling?

I was about to say "no, the O'Brien double got killed", until I realized that it happened twice to him, maybe three times.
Yeah, O'Brien from season 3 onwards is a slightly younger replacement from a defunct timeline who watched the original die.

Right, but by that logic Picard should have retired so that Riker could be captain. So it was Jean-Luc's fault all along!
And if Crusher had put out (that's a suspicious accident Jack had isn't it? Especially as Generations reveals his ideal dream wife looks just like another crewmember who was widowed) Picard would have been relaxed enough to go!

I don't know enough about the original series to really comment on Kirk, but Saavik was definitely a Lieutenant and a cadet at the same time. A lot of the secondary sources at the time (novels and such) made it seem like people went to the Academy for a while, then dicked around as ensigns, then picked a specialty and went back to the academy to train some more (hence Chekov being head of security in TMP in spite of having nothing to do with it in the TV series).
That sounds like they're trying to make sense of the Kirk thing.

I picked up the costumes of Star Trek hardback last week, and there's a publicity picture of Saavik in there I'd not seen before where she's managing to work the Mountie uniform very well.

Re: the Cardassian war, the only thing that makes any sense to me is that it was akin to the first Gulf War -- a big deal to the smaller power that got its' shit kicked in, but much less of a worry for the bigger, more advanced Federation. The Cardies just never seemed to be much of a threat, and their technology (as we saw in DS9) was way behind Federation standard. Just based on what we saw, pre-Dominion I'd guess they were more on par with the technology of Kirk's era than Picard's.
It actually got a bit silly how many species the Enterprise and DS9 crews run into (I don't know if Voyager and Enterprise carried it on, the last example I can think of is The Adversary) the Federation had been at war with in recent memory--sometimes even the life of the series--but hadn't been mentioned before. The Cardassians were the only ones to stick.

And then from captain back down to cadet at the start of the second one, because reasons. The new movies are idiotic on that front though, so I can't take anything they've got to say seriously.
Yeah, I always found the "He had to be Captain by the end of the film because people wouldn't stand for otherwise" stance odd considering the very obvious Batman Begins influence (oh look, the second film features the drastically reinvented most popular recurring villain. Though one of the things I do like about Into Darkness is it subverts a lot of Ledgerisms everyone has felt compelled to do, it was actually nice to have a villain who doesn't have Every Single Thing Including Their Own Capture planned out in advance and actually has to react to the actions of the heroes and plan on the hoof) where Gordon didn't end the film as Commissioner.

Plus the equally Nolanesque Craig Bond's (they destroyed stately Bond manor!) didn't feel compelled to stick every single thing people expect in there right away.

It would actually make sense for Data to have gone through the academy quickly considering his intelligence, speed and the fact he can study 24 hours a day (and surely they must have courses of different duration for more intelligent species like Vulcans? Or very short lived ones like Kes who would be almost dead by the time she graduated?), though I suppose with the whole "Desire to be human" thing he'd have probably insisted on the long road.

Yeah, if I was in Starfleet I would love to serve under Captain Data.
Shame really, he probably thought he could just out-wait Riker considering the whole immortal thing.

Worf actually got along pretty well with Jellico too, didn't he? Although the chance to bust Cardassian heads might have had something to do with that.
I don't recall Worf getting much to do in the second part, once he's rescued he just goes back to duty, we don't hear him moan but he doesn't get chance to (having a lot of inexperienced engineers on his staff all of a sudden would probably be annoying!).

Crusher of course manages to get her oar in though. "I have to get ready for all the casualties you're about to send me", I bet he was already thinking of getting Pulaski back.

That whole scenario was hilarious, because Jellico proved to be a better captain than Picard ever would have been in the same situation -- I mean, Picard never would have been ruthless enough to do what Jellico did and resolve the situation without a fight, because Picard never would have been willing to blow up fifty Cardassian warships with hidden bombs if his bluff got called. Riker meanwhile was a petulant child, and spent the whole two-parter pouting because he wasn't chosen to be captain while Picard was away (well gee Will, maybe you shouldn't have turned down all those promotions then if you want to be captain so badly...). Even Geordi was constantly pouting about having some of his staff reassigned, as if security wasn't important and they wouldn't need armed, trained officers if a war broke out. Meanwhile Data and Worf, the only two people on the ship who actually act like they understand how serious the situation is, thrive under him and probably would have loved it if he'd stayed.
Yeah, and to be fair to Geordi, he at least handles his grievance properly (complaining to Riker as the guy who has to deal with personnel issues), he doesn't actually start almost crying in front of the captain. How can Riker not have a handle on the idea of "Plausible deniability" missions?

It basically shows how homogeneous that crew had become, they worked well together but were so wary of outsiders and doing things differently there was no way they were going to move on in their careers.

Data's "Actually we can do that easily" always cracks me up.

It's funny that so much of the fandom (and even the novels, like New Frontier) make Jellico out to be this completely unreasonable tool, when honestly, he seemed like a great guy to work for.
Yes, now you mention it, I do remember not liking that about those books, he'd suddenly become Mr. Belding. He actually reminded me more of the dick Captain from David's earlier book Vendetta (which is, or at least was as I remember it, generally an awesome Borg book).
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