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Old 2006-02-17, 06:33 AM   #281
Hound
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Auros
The bottom line (and the circular argument I'm having with you) is that I don't think people who react violently to this belong in a civilized world since they can't act civilized, while you seem to give off the impression that it's ok for them to behave the way they do since their beliefs were offended. Additionally, I must point out once more, since you've passed over the point sooooooo many times, that the people I'm referring to are the ones who are going batsh*t insane over this and burning things down and rioting.

EDIT - I just realized what you did, you sly dog. You got us off of the discussion at hand by making some accusations based on your poor reading skills and had me defending myself since my points were already there.
No. Actually I've watched you completely misinterpret or just ignore anything I said before we got off on this tangent about accusations.

At no point did I say that the Danish deserve to be acted against violently. At many, MANY times in this thread I made it very clear that I was against anyone acting violently toward anyone. I said the Danish were idiots for printing images that they knew would offend and provoke a violent response. Which they were.

I'm not sure if any of that is in dispute but it shouldn't be.

Now as for whether or not the material is offensive. Well, the answer to that is obvious.

That said, any Muslim that decides they want to protest peacefully has my full support. If they feel that strongly that they feel like they should boycott Danish goods then more power to them.

I love how you say, "I'm not blanketing the entire religion" in the same post where you quote yourself saying, "that your religion's a load of bunk". And when you make the inevitable argument about taking your words out of context, in what context exactly did you mean that statement where it's not inflammatory and offensive to everyone of that religion?

Then there's all this talk about uncivilized behaviour and how bad reacting violently is and you've even put down those just writing on signs about violent action when you've just quoted yourself saying, "These people are backasswards, let's glass 'em" and "either get on the same page as the rest of the world or get shot by the US armed forces".

Now I'm done making accusations, because I'm sure you can justify everything you've said here. No matter how hateful it was.

It really doesn't matter whather or not you're as bad as the people you're so opposed to.

The issue I've been trying to argue was whether or not it was a wise thing for the Danish to print renderings of Mohammed in a newspaper and whether or not Muslims have a right to be angry about it.

Your argument seems to be completely centered on the few that have protested violently. These people aren't the only Muslims in the world, these people aren't encouraged and/or supported by the Muslim population as a whole, these people are not reliant on the support of the Muslim population as a whole. These are only the people you get to read about in news reports. They aren't representative of the Muslim community.

So I propose we talk about the majority of the Muslim population, what this whole issue means to them and what is wrong or right about their views and why. Y'know instead of just dismissing the issue with comments like, "I'm pretty sure I've maintained that it's fine for them to be offended (though I still don't think much of them for being so)" because I don't recall you at any point prior saying it was ok for any Muslims to be offended.
 
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Old 2006-02-17, 06:55 AM   #282
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Auros
I'm only responding to you because of this bit here and I do agree that free speech doesn't truly exist in some European countries. Germany clearly doesn't have it with their strict regulations on anything Nazi. What this has to do with the larger discussion concerning free speech, I'm not sure.
When they side with denmark citing "free speach" while they certainly don't have free speach makes a point of how many countries sided with Denmark because of "free speach".

Now Denmark and Germany have either refused or put on leave. Funny how the Danish editior wasn't put on leave for the Muslim cartoons, but when he said that he was going to print the Iranian cartoons all of the sudden he is on leave.

I really brings to light whether this was about free speach at all.
 
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Old 2006-02-17, 10:06 AM   #283
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Yeah, it wasn't about free speech at all, it was about a cartoon that offended some and not others and the repercussions of their actions. Life isn't some cheap school play, there's no motifs or hidden meaning...

Edit: What was I on about...
 

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Last edited by Aardvark; 2008-09-16 at 03:53 AM.
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Old 2006-02-17, 10:29 AM   #284
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
Just because you have the right to say whatever you want doesn't absolve you of responsibility for the consequences of whatever you've said.
Clearly anyone who's ever spoken out again the Klan, for instance, deserves flaming crosses to appear on their lawn.

Quote:
Originally posted by CloudStrifer
making fun of the Prophet (PBUM) is allowed but topics on the Holocost or any other such sensitive matter is not allowed.
I'm not seeing a great deal of rationality -- well, any rationality -- in comparing the killing around twelve million people with a suggestion that a folk hero be worthy of something less than eternal devotion and violence in his name.

The religion part in either case is bollocks or not bollocks, depending on how much credulity you have for such things. One involves systematic slaughter. This is why some people don't feel it's a suitable topic for humour.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wildrider
in many ways that's what it boils down to isn't it? Kindergarden play ground insults and attempts to out do your peers in the rude words stakes to try and provoke a reaction. Except the over reaction of this small minority is as predictable as most five year olds.
Yes.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
All I've read about so far has been some Muslims becoming enraged over something they are apparently completely justified over being enraged about.
Go on then... how are they completely justified?

(I suspect I'll find some sort of attempt to reply to this point over the next forty posts or so I haven't read yet, so I'll be back in a minute or two if I find that.)

edit:

Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
I think it would be interesting to see how Christians in the US would react if a cartoon showing the virgin Mary getting gangbanged by the Apostles were to suddenly pop up in international newspapers.
Yes, I agree. It would be interesting. Odds are, I think, that rioting in the street and attacks on embassies just for being foreign wouldn't be involved.

Can anyone here draw who considers blasphemy an anachronism?

This is the most similar thing I could find at short notice... the messiah porking a sorority girl...

WARNING: CARTOON SMUT www.jesuslovesporn.net WARNING: CARTOON SMUT

Quote:
Originally posted by CloudStrifer
How can you clamly sugest that by talking to 10 people you can brush a whole religious group as them not minding.
I doubt anyone is.

To attempt to offer some clarity:

I, and many others, are not fussed if someone is upset because their belief in the supernatural is questioned, brought to notice or mocked.

Upset about having a belief in supernatural things in no way provides excuse or mitigation for violence.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
What about the majority of Muslims that feel they've been wronged and aren't burning stuff down?
I don't respect their basing things on the supernatural either.

Is that what you've been waiting for? Because I'm sure I've said it a great many times, frequently and with varying amount of elaboration.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
You have no respect for their religion.
*nod*

This isn't limited to any one religion. It also doesn't mean active disrespect for a code of behaviour simply because it's founded on a personal faith. Why people do things (help old ladies across the road, carbomb city centres) isn't typically of any import -- it's what they do rather than the motivation.

I know many wonderful people who regard themselves as Christians, and a smattering who identify with various other religions. I respect and appreciate them for their actions. I don't accord any more respect because those actions may be motivated in part by figurative notions of a deity. Mild curiosity, perhaps.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
Is it wrong for them to hurt the Danish in peaceful ways yet still hurt them?
It's incredibly stupid to react to a group of people whose only commonality is living in the same place.

Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Auros
confusing cultural identities with race
Although taxonomy of human 'races' has little or no scientific basis -- in the most major sense race is entirely about identity (or more usually people trying to slot others into categories based on genetic trends within a population.)
 
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Old 2006-02-17, 12:23 PM   #285
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Hound - I really don't care to talk with you about this anymore because you're just not up to it. Rest assured that I'm still justified and that you still have no damn clue what you're talking about.
 
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Old 2006-02-17, 02:01 PM   #286
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denyer

I'm not seeing a great deal of rationality -- well, any rationality -- in comparing the killing around twelve million people with a suggestion that a folk hero be worthy of something less than eternal devotion and violence in his name.
*hugs Denyer*

*hugs Auros for the bit about Germany never claiming free speech*

And the Danish newspaper probably didn't realise the pictures would cause such a furore - justly so, seeing as no-one batted an eyelid when they were originally published. That they're now defending themselves is basically entirely justified. I rarely defend my conduct on this forum unless I'm asked to, or feel the need to. Same basic thing.

I've yet to hear anything like a believable reason for this all not kicking off when they were first published... I know someone's mentioned this, but it's mired in the depths somewhere - who originally printed the pictures? Was it the same newspaper?
 

Last edited by Cliffjumper; 2006-02-17 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 2006-02-17, 02:40 PM   #287
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Yup. The only reason there's a protest now (rather than last September) is the calculated whipping up of a large assembly of people.
 
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Old 2006-02-18, 01:38 AM   #288
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Auros
Hound - I really don't care to talk with you about this anymore because you're just not up to it. Rest assured that I'm still justified and that you still have no damn clue what you're talking about.
At which point have I not addressed any point you've made? Which argument of yours have I failed to counter? I'm honestly not seeing it.

I certainly disagree with you on a great many things.

Quote:
Originally posted by Denyer
Clearly anyone who's ever spoken out again the Klan, for instance, deserves flaming crosses to appear on their lawn.
I wouldn't say "deserves". I'd say they should have expected some retaliation though. To suddenly be surprised by it doesn't say much for one's intelligence.

Quote:
I'm not seeing a great deal of rationality -- well, any rationality -- in comparing the killing around twelve million people with a suggestion that a folk hero be worthy of something less than eternal devotion and violence in his name.

The religion part in either case is bollocks or not bollocks, depending on how much credulity you have for such things. One involves systematic slaughter. This is why some people don't feel it's a suitable topic for humour.
Yes but depending on which group you're talking about both are considered equally as solemn.

Do you have to believe in something to respect that others do?

Quote:
Go on then... how are they completely justified?
I don't actually know how. I'm no student of Muslim belief. I only know that those who are Muslim have said that drawing a picture of Mohammed is greatly offensive to Muslims. I assume this to be true based that no one has yet pointed out that it actually isn't.

If someone does something that you consider offensive then I believe you have the right to be offended. It's not really important whether or not everyone else thinks it's offensive.


Quote:
Yes, I agree. It would be interesting. Odds are, I think, that rioting in the street and attacks on embassies just for being foreign wouldn't be involved.
I think it would depend on the source.

Quote:
Can anyone here draw who considers blasphemy an anachronism?
First I'll need to look up "anachronism"...

Ah, clearly blasphemy can't be outdated, religion still exists. It may be in the future.

Quote:
This is the most similar thing I could find at short notice... the messiah porking a sorority girl...

WARNING: CARTOON SMUT www.jesuslovesporn.net WARNING: CARTOON SMUT
It's not really making international headlines though is it? It's not brought to the attention of the masses. I didn't click the link BTW, I'll take your word for it...

Quote:
I, and many others, are not fussed if someone is upset because their belief in the supernatural is questioned, brought to notice or mocked.

I don't respect their basing things on the supernatural either.

Is that what you've been waiting for? Because I'm sure I've said it a great many times, frequently and with varying amount of elaboration.
You don't seem to mind people getting fussed over those who share your beliefs get questioned or mocked.

Are you of the mind that only your view can be the right view?

Best not to take for granted that you're right. At least as far as I'm concerned.

Quote:
It's incredibly stupid to react to a group of people whose only commonality is living in the same place.
I could swear that you said you were ok with boycotting something because your beliefs were offended by someone. Chuck Dixon's work for instance. If you talked enough people into following suit you could do financial damage to a lot more than just Chuck Dixon.

What Chuck Dixon has done is many times more offensive than what offended the Muslims. Unless you ask someone who is not you. Though you can't be wrong. You won't even consider that it's ok for someone to be hurt or offended by what you consider to be nonsense. I say it doesn't matter if you or Luke or I consider it to be nonsense. Everyone has a right to their beliefs. Period. Without exception.

Don't start about anything justifying actions. That is totally dependent on which actions you are trying to justify. Becoming emotionally hurt isn't a crime.

Quote:
Although taxonomy of human 'races' has little or no scientific basis -- in the most major sense race is entirely about identity (or more usually people trying to slot others into categories based on genetic trends within a population.)
I agree. The meaning behind using the word "racism" when you aren't really talking about race isn't so important as long as the intent of the statement is understood. We're all human beings. When you have a prejudiced view of an entire group based on the actions of a few you may not be racist, you'd be the equivalent. The word still gets across the intent.
 
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Old 2006-02-18, 02:18 AM   #289
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
To suddenly be surprised by it doesn't say much for one's intelligence.
Who's surprised? Who doesn't expect fundamentalists can be whipped up into a baying pack long after the fact? If not this, another event or point of dogma -- most likely the invasion of Iraq in breach of international law.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
depending on which group you're talking about both are considered equally as solemn.
Anyone who will equate rape, violence, murder, eugenic war etc. with images of a person has abandoned any claim to rational thought.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
If someone does something that you consider offensive then I believe you have the right to be offended.
Yes, and you bitch about it on internet forums, or down the pub, or don't buy the paper, etc. These are reasonable actions.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
religion still exists
"Belonging to another age."

Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
It's not brought to the attention of the masses.
But next week, the Daily Mail will fail to have enough domestic news, and give it or something similar a couple of column inches with black bars over parts of the picture and "disrespect for family values is endemic blah blah" surrounding.

Seriously, track down a week's worth of this paper sometime. It'll be massively entertaining if you follow media. The Daily Mirror is technically the opposite end of the political spectrum, but also uses much the same rhetoric with less pretence of decorum. Stuff like this is their bread and butter, along with "how dare women think to have careers" and other watered-down versions of social prohibitions in other countries.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
Are you of the mind that only your view can be the right view?

Best not to take for granted that you're right. At least as far as I'm concerned.
More or less, and bring it. My version of being reactionary extends to not wishing to see people violently harmed, and not wishing to see people's self-agency taken away when it comes to their own bodies.

Truly shocking fascist stuff, I'm sure.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
I could swear that you said you were ok with boycotting something because your beliefs were offended by someone.
I'm impressed that Chuck's virility makes him a nation, and I suspect I'm supporting IDW with more energy than most.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
Everyone has a right to their beliefs.
Yes. Exercise of those beliefs when they include maiming, torture, honour killings, genital mutilation, arson, or incitement to the above, not so much.

edit:
Quote:
What Chuck Dixon has done is many times more offensive than what offended the Muslims.
Is it? I think he's a bit of a prat. Whilst it would be fun to actually find out how the whole tar and feather thing works in practicality, avoiding the chap would seem a more civilised option.
 
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Old 2006-02-18, 03:23 AM   #290
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denyer
Who's surprised?
The Danish apparently...
Quote:
Anyone who will equate rape, violence, murder, eugenic war etc. with images of a person has abandoned any claim to rational thought.
I'm sure perfectly amiable Muslims have as much regard for your point of view also...
Quote:
Yes, and you bitch about it on internet forums, or down the pub, or don't buy the paper, etc. These are reasonable actions.
I'm sure some do...
Quote:
"Belonging to another age."
How very narrow-minded of you...
Quote:
But next week, the Daily Mail will fail to have enough domestic news, and give it or something similar a couple of column inches with black bars over parts of the picture and "disrespect for family values is endemic blah blah" surrounding.

Seriously, track down a week's worth of this paper sometime. It'll be massively entertaining if you follow media. The Daily Mirror is technically the opposite end of the political spectrum, but also uses much the same rhetoric with less pretence of decorum. Stuff like this is their bread and butter, along with "how dare women think to have careers" and other watered-down versions of social prohibitions in other countries.
Ok...

Quote:
More or less, and bring it.
Again, narrow-minded...
Quote:
I'm impressed that Chuck's virility makes him a nation,
Dixon would be the Danish newspaper, IDW would be Denmark, it's employess the Danish. Not that I should actually have to make this clear...
Quote:
Yes.
Good, I was hoping you understood that. Perhaps not so narrow-minded...
Quote:
Is it?
It's a matter of perspective actually...
 
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Old 2006-02-18, 03:40 AM   #291
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Quote:
The Danish apparently...
Hardly. The average Danish citizen just doesn't think it's in any way justified, and a large chunk of the world agrees with them.

Quote:
How very narrow-minded of you
Yes, I tend to be that way when it comes to people persecuting others on the basis of things like nationality, skin colour, etc. My thinking that attributing everything to a creator spirit and working backwards from that statement is archaic is simply a form of respect for people who are bothered to ask questions, preserve knowledge and not wail when someone criticises their imaginary friend.

I do not consider all opinions to be equal. Nor do you.

Quote:
Not that I should actually have to make this clear...
Given that it's your analogy flawed by virtue of scale and specificity, it would be interesting to see how far you could make it stick.

Dixon would like to not see something. Dixon will very likely pick his titles on that basis. Dixon isn't, as far as I'm aware, waving a sword in the air and calling for physical harm, or for legal restriction of publishers. Points in his favour.
 
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Old 2006-02-18, 04:01 AM   #292
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denyer
Hardly. The average Danish citizen just doesn't think it's in any way justified, and a large chunk of the world agrees with them.

Yes, I tend to be that way when it comes to people persecuting others on the basis of things like nationality, skin colour, etc. My thinking that attributing everything to a creator spirit and working backwards from that statement is archaic is simply a form of respect for people who are bothered to ask questions, preserve knowledge and not wail when someone criticises their imaginary friend.
What if their beliefs turn out to be true?
Quote:
I do not consider all opinions to be equal. Nor do you.
Of course. I'm just more careful about which opinions I choose to assign merit.
Quote:
Given that it's your analogy flawed by virtue of scale and specificity, it would be interesting to see how far you could make it stick.
Dixon(The Danish Newspaper) made a statement you found offensive. You(The Muslims), presumably, decided you would no longer buy any comic book(imported product) he works on. Thus you punish the entire comic book company(Denmark) as well as Dixon(The Danish Newspaper).

Sticky enough for ya?
 
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Old 2006-02-18, 04:15 AM   #293
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
What if their beliefs turn out to be true?
The majority of the international population is ****ed anyway, including most of the people who claim to follow said vengeful spirit.

It's a little like every stock fantasy plot in which an evil villain lets loose an evil force and is then surprised when it turns on them -- if there is a god, and it turns out to be a complete bastard, assuming you'll be safe because you jumped through the hoops you could see (or part of a group told you were there) is extraordinarily trusting.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
Of course. I'm just more careful about which opinions I choose to assign merit.
Which is shorthand for "the ones I pick are right, the ones you pick aren't."

This could get a little repetitive.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
Dixon(The Danish Newspaper) made a statement you found offensive. You(The Muslims), presumably, decided you would no longer buy any comic book(imported product) he works on. Thus you punish the entire comic book company(Denmark)
By buying and recommending a lot of IDW titles? Mmm, Danish bacon.

Additionally, I would hazard a guess that most IDW staffers aren't on their premises because they were born there.
 
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Old 2006-02-18, 04:36 AM   #294
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denyer
The majority of the international population is ****ed anyway, including most of the people who claim to follow said vengeful spirit.

It's a little like every stock fantasy plot in which an evil villain lets loose an evil force and is then surprised when it turns on them -- if there is a god, and it turns out to be a complete bastard, assuming you'll be safe because you jumped through the hoops you could see (or part of a group told you were there) is extraordinarily trusting.
Makes a whole lot of sense. You're still taking for granted that you're right.

There's all kinds of possibilities on where the truth lies. To completely discount every religion because they seem unlikely is foolish.

Quote:
Which is shorthand for "the one I pick are right, the ones you pick aren't."
I suppose, though it should come as no surprise that my intent was something more along the lines of, "I'm more open to the possibility that I don't actually have the best or most valid point of view, I'm more accepting of views that don't mirror my own."
Quote:
Additionally, I would hazard a guess that most IDW staffers aren't on their premises because they were born there.
They're there because they require a paycheck with which to support themesleves and possibly a family and the job is more than likely the most favorable place they could find to work. Comparable to the Danish living in Denmark because you have to have someplace to live, Denmark just happens to be the place they favor. In neither case are they forced to be there.
 
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Old 2006-02-18, 05:15 AM   #295
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
To completely discount every religion because they seem unlikely is foolish.
I guess I'd better skip to burning those embassies and throwing menstruating women out of churches just in case, eh?

It is more sane to base your life or actions on what you can establish some evidence for and what is knowable than what is not.

Although I don't find a problem maintaining a personal faith with the consideration that it most likely is nonsense -- my actions are the same under either schema. I do not feel driven to believe in a vindictive god, nor do I feel guilted into paying lip-service to those of others.

Fear or love.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
I'm more accepting of views that don't mirror my own
When the mood strikes you. You don't seem particularly enamoured of the Italian supreme court at the moment.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
In neither case are they forced to be there.
Mobility where work is concerned is considerable compared to moving country (especially in instances involving second or third languages.)

Plus I seem to be doing the Danes a lot of free PR on account of liking their depiction of alien robots, which is where the analogy really falls apart...
 
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Old 2006-02-18, 06:25 AM   #296
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denyer
When the mood strikes you. You don't seem particularly enamoured of the Italian supreme court at the moment.
To not question any system of beliefs including one's own is even more foolish.

Which is my problem with faith, it doesn't leave a whole lot of room for the possibility it may be wrong. That's what's so great about science. It doesn't claim to have any definitive answers.

The point is none of us knows which system of beliefs happens to be "right or wrong". I tend to believe that neither is true about any set of beliefs. I know what works for me and that's ok, what works for someone else may be different. What works for someone else may be detrimental to everyone else in which case that person or group of people get fairly judged and dealt with appropriately.

It's a good system if you ask me and would eliminate a lot of conflict in the long run if everyone adopted it. Though, like I said, faith doesn't allow for the concession that it may be wrong...
 
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Old 2006-02-18, 06:43 AM   #297
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
To not question any system of beliefs including one's own is even more foolish.
I'd have to have a system of beliefs in order to question it, I think, rather than considering those proposed by others to be without foundation on current evidence.

There's no ontological framework to the consideration that, if a god exists, it probably isn't a vindictive bastard. It's barely a faith, but does presuppose some conviction that the universe is not inherently malicious as we understand it.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
I know what works for me and that's ok, what works for someone else may be different. What works for someone else may be detrimental to everyone else in which case that person or group of people get fairly judged and dealt with appropriately.
Indeed.

We merely disagree at intervals on 'fair', 'judge', 'detrimental' and 'appropriate'.
 
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Old 2006-02-18, 07:15 AM   #298
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Quote:
Originally posted by Denyer
We merely disagree at intervals on 'fair', 'judge', 'detrimental' and 'appropriate'.
Nothing wrong with that.

It's ok to disagree on things. It makes life interesting.
 
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