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Old 2008-01-04, 12:45 AM   #221
Denyer
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Rat Trap is descended from Arcee. She is his Great Aunt.
Sure, because that couldn't possibly be an idiom.

(This is one of the things a few comments have been getting at, incidentally --verbosity; abrupt transitions; literal interpretations and miscomprehension of nuance; use of metaphor meaningful only to the speaker; auditory perception deficits; unusually pedantic, formal or idiosyncratic speech.)

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even with the non-carbon-based life developed in sci-fi, they all meet the same seven criteria
It's a fairly big point in Trek that Data (along with other life forms) is one of the things that causes a reappraisal of definitions for life, that were constructed around organic life. There are several such instances of reappraisal, another major one being the status of holograms that are considered to have developed far beyond their initial programming.

This is a normal thing for rational scientific enquiry -- actively seeking out more information, examining, discussing and disproving.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Soil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mea...TNG_episode%29
http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Artic...on_%28novel%29
http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Homecoming_%28novel%29
http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/The_Farther_Shore

COMMANDER DATA: Doctor, what is the definition of life?
DOCTOR: That is a BIG question. Why do you ask?
COMMANDER DATA: I am searching for a definition that will allow me to test an hypothesis.
DOCTOR: Well, the broadest scientific definition might be that life is what enables plants and animals to consume food, derive energy from it, grow, adapt themselves to their surroundings, and reproduce.
COMMANDER DATA: And you suggest that anything that exhibits these characteristics is considered alive?
DOCTOR: In general, yes.
COMMANDER DATA: What about me? I do not grow. I do not reproduce. Yet I am considered to be alive.
DOCTOR: That's true. But you are unique.
COMMANDER DATA: Hmm. I wonder if that is so.
DOCTOR: Data, if I may ask, what exactly are you getting at?
COMMANDER DATA: I'm curious as to what transpired between the moment when I was nothing more than an assemblage of parts in Dr. Soong's laboratory and the next moment when I became alive. What is it that endowed me with life?


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We have the cartoon diverging at the end of Season 3. They aren't two different continuites until that divsergeance point.
The Japanese episodes prior to Headmasters have a somewhat different chronology (and different characters) to the American show in seasons one to three.

Though the point is simply that there are many timelines, and where branches occur none of them is a palimpsest. Dawn of Future's Past takes the show as a base for its continuity. This does not mean DoFP occurs in the timeline/continuity of the IDW BW comics, 3H convention comics, Beast Wars Second, etc. or that of the show itself. Material written afterwards has the option of accepting its retroactive continuity as an element of their fiction.

The act of material being created is linear. It is an act performed by people, who also experience time linearly.

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neither is history
History is an attempt to chronicle real events, rather than to write fiction.

To give a comics example, events prior to Zero Hour happened. They are considered not to have happened in DC material that follows it. To the inhabitants of that fictional reality it is as if the events never happened.

If people mention they're discussing events of the US show continuity, it's no different to people mentioning that they're discussing the events of pre-ZH DC continuity.

Original series US show continuity is what was in the original series US show. ("US show" being a typical abbreviation of "original series US show".)

The continuity for Wreckers is a conglomerate of stuff from the US show continuity (from several US shows, being specific) and other things.

This is why people will probably tell people who derail discussions of the US show with talk of material that was written later to do many anatomically impossible things and, if it happens sufficiently often on message boards, to introduce rules that specifically relate to this type of discussion derailing...
 
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Old 2008-01-04, 12:50 AM   #222
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Originally posted by Heinrad
I was right, Tramp. You do have a lot of spare time on your hands.

But, I'll try this again. Going back to what I said the first time I poked my head into this thread:

Esmyrl and Lyazak(or however her name is spelled) are from the Japanese comic loosely based on Victory. It's as close to the Victory storyline as the current presidential race is to the mental ward of your local hospital, minus the thorazine. Because if you're going to call that canon, then why are both Deathsanrus and LioKaiser DEAD at the end of Victory? Those two would be 'Con femmes didn't show up to stop the fights between Victory Leo/LioKaiser and Star Saber/Deathsanrus. In fact, the only version of Victory that LioKaiser survives that particular fight comes from the Star TV dub, where he winds up frozen and drifting through space.
Regardles, the manga is still canon. IT is part of the over-all Transformers canon. IT is also cooborated in other continuities including US carton continuity where we have the Lithonians, who also clearly show, a race of males, females which marry and have and children, and we have Wheeliee, who is also a child, who had a mother and father who died.

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If, by some random chance they had appeared on Earth, they probably would have been bombarded along with the Dino Assualt Squadron by Deathsanrus up in orbit.
Quite possibly, but they weren't. It still does not disprove anything.

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Comics Bon-Bon isn't canon in any continuity at all except possibly it's own, as far as I know. No matter what you and Pat Lee might hope.
"Comics Bon-Bon"? You mean the publishing company which produced the manga. Yes, that is canon. It was officially sanctioned by Takara, one of the holders of the Transformers proerty. Everything officially produced is canon and valid evidence, incluiding the manga and every retcon established thus far.
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And if you're pinning your whole argument for Cybertronian children on the pleas of two femmes from a side comic aimed at small children, then the argument for a Pythian curse on Cybertron is just as valid.
No, not just that, but also the myriad other romantic relationships and courtships, as well as other examples of children, and basic science.

But, I'll give you a chance. You say there's actual detail pictures of Cybertronian children out there? Fine. Post links to them, as long as they aren't from Comics Bon-Bon, the Lithonian scenes from the movie, or micromasters at a distance. [/QUOTE] So you acknowlwedge that the Lithonian childen are in fact children, and you acknowledge the existance of the Decepticon children form Vctory? Good. here is another child:

Wheelie is the most well-known Transformer child there is. He is an orphan whos parents dide in the crash that left him stranded on Quintessa. He is specifically referred to as a child in both the US cartoon and Headmasters, and he has all of the physical characteristics of a child as well.
 
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Old 2008-01-04, 12:51 AM   #223
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Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: This thread is POINTLESS!!!!

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Originally posted by Tramp
That is because I am wiling to look at the evidence and see it for what it is.

Riiiight.

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What other evidence do you need?
The only evidence there could be- that which you can't produce because it doesn't exist.

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I haven't put words in your mouth once. You assumed I did. Those are two different things.
This:

------------------
You- "because it is based upon a false premice that because they are "robots" and not organic, they can't can't breed. The whole foundation of your argument is flawed because of that simple fact."

Me- "What are you, blind? This is further evidence of your willingness to see only what you want to see. I'm basing my argument on the fact that Transformers is a children's product, not on the fact that they're robots."
-------------------

Isn't assumption. It's right there for everyone to see therefore easily provable as fact. Not once in this conversation have I stated that I believed that robots cannot breed- I simply argued that because it is a children's program I didn't believe that that is what the creators of the series intended for them.



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How much direct evidence do we have that humans reproduce sexually in the show? Do we see Spike andCarly screwing in order to beget Daniel? Did we see Sparkplug and hisa wife screing in order to beget Spike? No, yet we know that is how both came into being. They were born.
No they weren't. They're as cartoony as the rest of them, haven't you noticed?

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And yet yuo would disregard all of it simply because Transformers are robots.
Once again putting words into my mouth. I disregard all of that because they are cartoon characters in a children's TV programme.

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There is nothing that says they can't. Not one piece of canon evidence says Transformers cannot reproduce sexually. yet we do have evidence that they can and sometimes do.
No, we have no evidence that they do, mainly because no writer or person who had anything to do with the beginning of the series has stood up and said "Hey, by the way, Transformers bang each other to make little robots, just like we do."

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No. I am assuming nothing.
Yes, you're assuming everything. And everyone but you can see that, apparently.

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The basis of my argument is that Transformers, by canon, are living organisms, not simple robots, organisms with clear and distinct sexes, which have been shown clearly to engage in activity centered on the selection of a mate, romantic relationships between sexes and marriages, all of which is for the purpose of reproduction, and evidence of the results of such unions, children. Childrn such as Wheelie, who lost his mother and father, the Lithonians, who are mothers, fathers and children, and the Decepticons from Victory where we see wives, sisters, and many many children of varying ages. I am basing it purely on these
And how did you reach these conclusions?

You assumed that they **** offscreen just because you see females and children, although no one has ever said conclusively that they do.

Whenever two TFs walk offscreen... Let me remind you that "maybe it means something else,"is not evidence.


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Whether or not it is a children's show is irrelevant
No it's not.

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They can work around it by showing the precursors to it such as romance and marriage
Exactly. They work around having to include sexual reproduction because they never intended it to be a part of the TF universe.

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And that is exactly what they did.
I'm glad we agree.

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They put in all of the signs, just not the act itself. They gave Transformers sexes, made them male and female. They gave them romance, pairing them off male and female, married them, made some children with parents, and made others parents of children.
To personify them and make it possible for children to identify with them. Not to insinuate that they **** like bunnies when no human children are watching.


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They opened the door to a universe of [marketing] possibility

Fixed that sentence for you.

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The Japanese manga did specifically make it clear that those children were the direct products of the sexual unions of their parents. It is pretty obvious. They were the biological children of their mothers and fathers. It even states that they are just like us in that regard. They have families just like the Autobots and just like humans. They have wives and children just like the Autobots and just like Humans. It is that very fact that ended the war.
Already explained earlier, by people better versed in the manga than I am.
 
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Old 2008-01-04, 01:35 AM   #224
Clay
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Originally posted by Tramp
Regardles, the manga is still canon. IT is part of the over-all Transformers canon.
So an obscure manga aimed at little kids that directly contradicts the course of events of the cartoon it's based on carries more weight than the entire Marvel G1 continuity?

Don't you get it? For everything you cite like, "There are kid robots on Lithone, so the robots must screw and pop out babies," there's another example like the exclusivity of budding and using the Matrix in the comics to suggest that sexual reproduction in robots is bunk?

I've yet to see you produce evidence of Transformer gametes, sexual reproductive systems, et al, beyond the Femmebots being 'obviously female' and "the series says they're alive, so they automatically meet criteria offscreen".
 
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Old 2008-01-04, 01:36 AM   #225
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Originally posted by Denyer
Sure, because that couldn't possibly be an idiom.

(This is one of the things a few comments have been getting at, incidentally --verbosity; abrupt transitions; literal interpretations and miscomprehension of nuance; use of metaphor meaningful only to the speaker; auditory perception deficits; unusually pedantic, formal or idiosyncratic speech.)


It's a fairly big point in Trek that Data (along with other life forms) is one of the things that causes a reappraisal of definitions for life, that were constructed around organic life. There are several such instances of reappraisal, another major one being the status of holograms that are considered to have developed far beyond their initial programming.

This is a normal thing for rational scientific enquiry -- actively seeking out more information, examining, discussing and disproving.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Soil
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mea...TNG_episode%29
http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Artic...on_%28novel%29
http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Homecoming_%28novel%29
http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/The_Farther_Shore

COMMANDER DATA: Doctor, what is the definition of life?
DOCTOR: That is a BIG question. Why do you ask?
COMMANDER DATA: I am searching for a definition that will allow me to test an hypothesis.
DOCTOR: Well, the broadest scientific definition might be that life is what enables plants and animals to consume food, derive energy from it, grow, adapt themselves to their surroundings, and reproduce.
COMMANDER DATA: And you suggest that anything that exhibits these characteristics is considered alive?
DOCTOR: In general, yes.
COMMANDER DATA: What about me? I do not grow. I do not reproduce. Yet I am considered to be alive.
DOCTOR: That's true. But you are unique.
COMMANDER DATA: Hmm. I wonder if that is so.
DOCTOR: Data, if I may ask, what exactly are you getting at?
COMMANDER DATA: I'm curious as to what transpired between the moment when I was nothing more than an assemblage of parts in Dr. Soong's laboratory and the next moment when I became alive. What is it that endowed me with life?
Data is "alive" in the legal sense, and in the colloquial sense, not the literal, scientific sense. There is a difference. The hologram doctor gave the sicentific basis for life. The asexually producing chrystaline aliens in TNG also showed all seven criteria needed to indentify life. That was how they were finally identified as life. The show did use those criteria for scienfic determination of life. To properly classify Data, those hologram characters who have become self-aware, and such, they are independent, sentient constructs, not ture life. The Transformers demonstrate the fundamental life processes. They do grow, they do metabolize fod and derive nurishment and energy from it. They do meet every criterion.


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The Japanese episodes prior to Headmasters have a somewhat different chronology (and different characters) to the American show in seasons one to three.
The only difference is the names and the year they set Season 3. The storuies are identicle. The chronoogy is identicle. The divergence does not begin until Headmasters. It is at that point where the stories themselves diverge from the US material.

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Though the point is simply that there are many timelines, and where branches occur none of them is a palimpsest. Dawn of Future's Past takes the show as a base for its continuity. This does not mean DoFP occurs in the timeline/continuity of the IDW BW comics, 3H convention comics, Beast Wars Second, etc. Material written afterwards has the option of accepting its retroactive continuity as an element of their fiction.
Yes, there are many timelines, but they all diverge from a common point, and in many cases, they converge as well. Beast Wars is one such case. Here is the link to a table which shows the direct and indirect links to shows as far as continuity goes: [url]http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/transformers/images/1/1d/Continuities.png[/url IT was oriignally printed in the official Collectors Club newsletter by Fun Publications. Here is the link to the Japanese G1 timeline: http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Generation_1_...28Japan%29/src
As you can see by the graph, Beast Wars directly follows the G1 cartoon continuity and , if you continue on, you will see that Wreckers is also directly linked to the G1 cartoon.
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The act of material being created is linear. It is an act performed by people, who also experience time linearly.
I beg to differ. Tell that to George Lucas. He basically invented non-linear story-telling. Fiction is not linear. This is especially evident in Star Wars fiction, where they are constantly telling stories that take place all over the timeline, yet are all part of the same continuity. Retcons are by definition retroactive. They apply to all previously produced stories. The prequel movies chaged how we interpret the Original trilogy. The Tales of the Jedi comics provided us with our fist look at the ancient history of that universe. We have stories currently being told taking place ack in the distant past and far future of that universe. It is not linear. fiction is fluid, just like our knowledge of history. Wreckers takes place in the future of G1/BW continuity after the events of Beast machines, but includes a history lesson form one of the Quintessons who actually helped in the "creation' of the Transforer race as they are now. Al-Badur was one of the original Quintessons who subverted Primus for their own purpose. He is specifcially named in the cartoon as well.


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History is an attempt to chronicle real events, rather than to write fiction.
Very true, but, by the same token, both history and fiction are constantly evolving as new information is either discovered or created. Retcons are to fiction what a new discovery is to real history. From an in universe perspective, the retcon represents a new discovery which changes the reader's understanding of that universe's history. That is what Wreckers #3 does. it reveals new previously unkmnown information about the creation of the Transformers in the G1 cartoon continuity.

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To give a comics example, events prior to Zero Hour happened. They are considered not to have happened in DC material that follows it. To the inhabitants of that fictional reality it is as if the events never happened.
Yes, but that is not the case with Transformers. Ever event is considerd to have happened, and new information is constantly being added to those continuties even though the original series has ended. Beast Wars, [i]Beast Machines, and Wreckers added to the G1 cartoon continity. [i]Universe brought all of the continuites together into a larger multiverse. It is not like DC where they did a complete reboot wiping out everything prior.
 
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Old 2008-01-04, 02:00 AM   #226
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Originally posted by Tramp
So you acknowlwedge that the Lithonian childen are in fact children, and you acknowledge the existance of the Decepticon children form Vctory? Good. here is another child:
How do you know that the Lithones didn't simply build their 'kids' in the garage from a kit, and that Lithonian young aren't 'children' in the same way that the Dinobots are to Wheeljack?
 
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Old 2008-01-04, 02:28 AM   #227
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Originally posted by Clay
So an obscure manga aimed at little kids that directly contradicts the course of events of the cartoon it's based on carries more weight than the entire Marvel G1 continuity?
Both series are canon. just as here, both the Cartoon and Marvel comics are canon, yet contradict one another.
Quote:
Don't you get it? For everything you cite like, "There are kid robots on Lithone, so the robots must screw and pop out babies," there's another example like the exclusivity of budding and using the Matrix in the comics to suggest that sexual reproduction in robots is bunk?
Marvel'sd Transformers are specifically stated to be asexual with no females or males . This is completely contradicted by the cartoon and every other continuity but US and Japanese. In every other continuty, Transformers have sexes. They are divided into males and females. That is directly contrary to Marvel's continuity in that regard. The use of the Matrix to imbue built Transformers is not in question. It never was. However, creating new Tranformers by building them has been specifically stated as not being the only possible method of creating new Cybertronian life. Therefore, the use of the Matrix to bring built creations to life does not discount the ability to reproduce sexually, especially when it has already been established that building new Transfoers is not the only way to create new life. That alone contradicts your whole argument. It does not disprove anything.

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I've yet to see you produce evidence of Transformer gametes, sexual reproductive systems, et al, beyond the Femmebots being 'obviously female' and "the series says they're alive, so they automatically meet criteria offscreen".
The female Transformers are not just "obviously" female. Canon specifically states they are female. Thunderblast's bio specifically states she is a female. The Cyberkey code portion of Override's bio specifically states that she is a female. The cartoon specifcially calls Elita-1, Chromia, Moonracer, Firestar, etc, females. Canon does not call them femmebots. Fans do. "femmebot" is a fan term, not a canon term. Canon calls them females. The cartoon called them females. UT calls them females. DW calls them females. the Japoanese call them females. They're females. Female is a sex. Male is a sex. Canon sources from multiple continuities specifically state and show that Transfoemrs are male and female. They have sexes. If you have a sex, you have sexual reproductive systems. Transformers have sexes. They display all of the phyiscal, functional, and behavioral characteristics of those sexes. By that very canon fact, they have the appropriate reproductive syustems for their sex. We don't need to see them to know they have them. We don't need to see Spike's or Carly's to know they have them? Then why do we for Prime and Elita-1? We know they are male and female. Canon specifically states so. The cartoon specifically says so. The DW comics stell us so. The UT tells us so. Male and female ares sexes. A life form cannot have a sex, it cannot be male or female without the appropriate sexual organs with the capability to produce gametes. It is impossible. That is where your argument falls apart. The exact location or appearance of said systems is not important. For all we know, theyr sex organs could be in their hands or feet. A male cephelopod's sex organs are in the tip of one of his arms You can't tell by looking at it that it is a sex organ. By the same token they could be lovated right where they are on us, between the legs (And, given that many have a panel on their cod pieces which looks like it could retract, that is very likely where they're located). Transformers are divided into males and females. That is canon and is specifically established in the cartoon and every other continuity but Marvel. In the cartoon, DW comics, UT, and every other continuty but Marvel, we see romance—courtship between Male and female Transformers. We see marriages. And we see actual physical children with mothers and fathers. We see families. This is confirmed in multiple continuities. All of that combined points to them being capable of sexual reproduction, and there is nothing to contradict that in those continuities.

Those Transformers who were definately built had no mothers and fathers, and were created as fully grown adult with no shared physical, genetic, etc, traits with those who created them. They were not created as small children. They did not start out as helpless babies.

The ones we see with mothers and fathers are small children who do share distinct physical and genetic traits with their parents. They started out as babies, not fully grown adults. They are still growing. We see them ranging in age friom babies to adolescents, and everywhere inbetween. We see a multitude of them in the manga, and a number of them in the orignal movie. That shows a clear difference between those who were definately built and those who are children of their parents. Those differences proves that the children were not built and imbued with a spark. They were born from the union of their mothers and fathers. Two different methods of creating new life. One sexual, the other artificial. Transformers are not limited to just building their "progeny". They can and sometimes do bear them through sexual reproduction.
 
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Old 2008-01-04, 02:37 AM   #228
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Originally posted by Clay
How do you know that the Lithones didn't simply build their 'kids' in the garage from a kit, and that Lithonian young aren't 'children' in the same way that the Dinobots are to Wheeljack?
For the same reason I can say for certain that the Decepticons didn't. The Dinobots are physically adults. The Lithonian children and the Decepticon children ar still growing. They're physically children. In both cases, we see children of different ages and different stages of growth. We see growth through that cross-section. It is clearly evident. The Dinobots, Aerialbots, and other Transformers who were built, wer created fully grown. From a sheer practicalliyt perspective, that makes more sense The only reason why children start out small and helpless is because they grow inside their mothers, or in an egg laid by their mothers, and they have to grow and develop. If the "offspring" is not being grown from within the body or from an egg brougth forth from the body, it can be created fully formed and full size. The built transformers wer built full sized and fully grown. The children start out tiny and helpless as babies, that is because they had to develop either inside their mothers or within some sort of "egg" produced from within their mothers. The children were clearly produced by natural sexual reproduction.
 
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Old 2008-01-04, 03:17 AM   #229
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Originally posted by Tramp
Data is "alive" in the legal sense, and in the colloquial sense, not the literal, scientific sense.
Not in the sense of one of our current scientific sets of criteria for life. Criteria used by scientists are not constants over time; additional evidence and information are factored into them. By the end of the 24th century in the fiction given, scientists have been exposed to beings that are not organic, to beings that are not composed of matter, and to beings that are created independent of material taken from other beings.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
The only difference is the names and the year they set Season 3. The storuies are identicle. The chronoogy is identicle.
A few things:

- In Japan, the material shown as Transformers 2010 in the US as Season Three takes places in 2010, rather than following the movie directly.
- The material was edited for length, so some scenes and episodes do not occur in Japanese show continuity.
- The purple cassette robot is Frenzy.

This boils down to the movie not being released in Japan until 1990, meaning the movie isn't in-continuity for Transformers 2010 (though similar events can be inferred, as there's a giant head in orbit around Cybertron.) The movie is in-continuity for some material released afterwards.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
there are many timelines, but they all diverge from a common point, and in many cases, they converge as well.
Creators of later material opt to include or not include earlier material. Whether they have the option to include earlier material may be bound in legal restrictions. (For instance, everyone who doesn't have an agreement with Marvel is precluded from creating a continuity that includes Circuit Breaker.)

Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
Fiction is not linear.
Fiction is produced linearly. Referring to original series TF continuity is, in the absence of qualification that the discussion invites further material, referring to the original series of Transformers.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
Retcons are by definition retroactive.
You have a new story that, from that point on, assumes things that were previously the case are different. None of the earlier material has altered.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
They apply to all previously produced stories. The prequel movies chaged how we interpret the Original trilogy.
The prequel movies form an additional continuity, alongside edited releases of the first three films. When people discuss pre-90s Star Wars, more recent material has no bearing on the discussion.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
both history and fiction are constantly evolving as new information is either discovered or created. Retcons are to fiction what a new discovery is to real history. From an in universe perspective, the retcon represents a new discovery which changes the reader's understanding of that universe's history.
We're not in-universe, as I hope everyone in this conversation has grasped. We're referring to fictional works released in succession and continuities that are constituted by them, with some works referring back to preceding ones. If people wish to set limits on that discussion, they will do so.

And we'll enable them to do so, in the interest of keeping peace.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
Ever event is considerd to have happened
For purpose of being recognised as canon, official, as real as anything else, etc. by the license-holder.

If we're discussing in-universe events, versions / the timing of revisions matter. US season two may be discussed in its own context -- season two, plus season one as season two prefigures it -- or the context of the original US TF series as a whole; seasons one, two, movie+three and four. Or in many other contexts, other participants willing.

This wouldn't be being spelled out but for socialisation on the part of a few who feel the need to bring later material into discussions predicated with earlier material as their framing and context, without (or more usually against) invitation.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
Universe brought all of the continuites together into a larger multiverse. It is not like DC where they did a complete reboot wiping out everything prior.
Universe is one continuity amongst many, taking as its basis material from many other continuities that were produced before it.

Earlier material has not ceased or changed except inside your head. What has changed is the way you view it. Expecting others to proceed from the same assumptions is an exercise in futility.

edit:

Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
By the same token they could be lovated right where they are on us, between the legs
Though that is possibly the best typo ever.
 
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Old 2008-01-04, 03:19 AM   #230
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Originally posted by Clay
Yeah... KY isn't just a jelly.
LOL!
 

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Old 2008-01-04, 03:21 AM   #231
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
For the same reason I can say for certain that the Decepticons didn't. The Dinobots are physically adults. The Lithonian children and the Decepticon children ar still growing. They're physically children. In both cases, we see children of different ages and different stages of growth. We see growth through that cross-section. It is clearly evident. The Dinobots, Aerialbots, and other Transformers who were built, wer created fully grown. From a sheer practicalliyt perspective, that makes more sense The only reason why children start out small and helpless is because they grow inside their mothers, or in an egg laid by their mothers, and they have to grow and develop. If the "offspring" is not being grown from within the body or from an egg brougth forth from the body, it can be created fully formed and full size. The built transformers wer built full sized and fully grown. The children start out tiny and helpless as babies, that is because they had to develop either inside their mothers or within some sort of "egg" produced from within their mothers. The children were clearly produced by natural sexual reproduction.
Or they just built them small and weak after learning from Wheeljack's fiasco with the Dinobots...

You've provided no proof that Transformers 'grow', or even an example, aside from Hot Rod gaining / losing the Matrix, or Soundwave et al's mass shifting nonsense.

Quote:
Originally posted by Tramp
The female Transformers are not just "obviously" female. Canon specifically states they are female. .... A life form cannot have a sex, it cannot be male or female without the appropriate sexual organs with the capability to produce gametes. It is impossible. That is where your argument falls apart. The exact location or appearance of said systems is not important. ... By the same token they could be lovated right where they are on us, between the legs (And, given that many have a panel on their cod pieces which looks like it could retract, that is very likely where they're located). Transformers are divided into males and females. That is canon and is specifically established in the cartoon and every other continuity but Marvel.
Quote:

Those differences proves that the children were not built and imbued with a spark. They were born from the union of their mothers and fathers. Two different methods of creating new life. One sexual, the other artificial. Transformers are not limited to just building their "progeny". They can and sometimes do bear them through sexual reproduction.
The above two quotes speak for themselves to any reasonable person, I think.

Quote:
We don't need to see Spike's or Carly's to know they have them? Then why do we for Prime and Elita-1?
Spike and Carly aren't part of the 'species' being debated...

To quote myself:
Quote:
You can't sanely say that, "Well, canon says they're living robots [or male and female], so they must meet the defining characteristics of [such] by default."
End of thread.
 
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Old 2008-01-04, 03:46 AM   #232
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Hey Tramp- I still win.
 
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Old 2008-01-04, 06:48 AM   #233
inflatable dalek
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And anyone who thinks George Lucas invented non-linear story telling by making some films set before some other films is a momin of the first order.
 
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