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Old 2014-09-05, 08:58 PM   #1
Dead Man Wade
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Default The X-men: Astonishing, Uncanny, Amazing Failures, or Regular, Run-of-the-Mill Failures?

I was thinking about it recently, and it occurred to me that, if one takes the X-men's overall mission of "foster peaceful co-existence between human and mutant" at face value, they've pretty much failed in every way possible. Not only that, but they will continue to fail.

The current state of human/mutant affairs is fairly dire, as Cyclops' dealings during and after AvX have set things back decades. Sentinels are showing up whenever a new mutant discovers their powers, police draw their weapons whenever the X-men show up, etc. The general acceptance mutants enjoyed for a brief period in the 2000s is gone.

Then there are the alternate futures. If anyone knows of a single alternate future where the X-men are successful, I'd love to hear about it, because I'm honestly at a loss. Bishop's future, Cable's future, Days of Future Past, X-men: The End, Here Comes Tomorrow, Battle of the Atom; none really paint a rosey picture for them. At best, you have Battle of the Atom, where Dazzler is elected President and...you know...immediately assassinated, along with a good chunk of Washington.

So, is that it? Are the X-men doomed to repeated failure, only to die feared and hated, or is there some possible future I'm missing that actually shows them improving things to any discernible degree?
 
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Old 2014-09-05, 09:26 PM   #2
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Um, X-Men 2099 / X-Nation 2099 is kind of positive where Mutants live in a big ghetto type thing.

Honestly, the X-Men's 'acceptance' anaology is never going to be answered otherwise Marvel would run out of stories in a flash.

It never makes sense to me anyway in a fictional universe where getting super powers through an industrial accident is perfectly acceptable, but if you develop them naturally, that's bad. It's silly.

I do wish Marvel would move things on from this. The world has changed and there's far more tolerance in it than there was previously (leaving aside divisions along centuries old religious divides which will never be resolved unless one side wipes the other out or agrees to stop blowing each other up for believing in the same entity in a slightly different way) for things that seem 'different' or 'abnormal', it would be nice if Marvel could reflect some of this integration instead of mutants being 'hated and feared' all the time. Its just dull.

Not that I read much Supers type comics these days. Their lack of consequence and interminable 'events' that are all invariably undone have just turned me off them.
 
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Old 2014-09-05, 09:43 PM   #3
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Um, X-Men 2099 / X-Nation 2099 is kind of positive where Mutants live in a big ghetto type thing.
Apparently, we have different experiences with ghettos. It's fairly rare that people are relegated to a ghetto because things are ridiculously awesome. They're usually a result of institutionalized racism or classism.

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Honestly, the X-Men's 'acceptance' anaology is never going to be answered otherwise Marvel would run out of stories in a flash.
Understand, I'm talking purely in the context of that universe. As a reader, clearly I understand that that's the case. I don't expect the X-men to achieve their goals, any more than I expect Spider-man to stop complaining about the Parker luck (despite being an Avenger surrounded by some of the hottest women alive) or Iron Man to stop bringing up his alcoholism (despite the fact that a lot of readers weren't even born when last he had a drink).

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It never makes sense to me anyway in a fictional universe where getting super powers through an industrial accident is perfectly acceptable, but if you develop them naturally, that's bad. It's silly.
I agree. But that's the universe as they've established it, and again...

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I do wish Marvel would move things on from this. The world has changed and there's far more tolerance in it than there was previously (leaving aside divisions along centuries old religious divides which will never be resolved unless one side wipes the other out or agrees to stop blowing each other up for believing in the same entity in a slightly different way) for things that seem 'different' or 'abnormal'
I'm sure there's no small number of people who would be willing to argue whether that's true.
 
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Old 2014-09-06, 08:07 AM   #4
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I can only dimly recall the 2099 books. I seem to recall it was more that the mutants had their own sort of nation state - which is a massive ghetto really - and whilst not awesome, it was better than their present day counterparts had.

I get that you are focusing on it only from an in-fiction viewpoint, and the other Supers books are just as bad with their constant status quo being maintained, but even bloody Spider-Man has moved on from being hated by NYC (although it has taken 70 years! That's progress!). Of course they're never going to get anywhere fostering peace and understanding as they're world is constantly constructed so that angle is never removed to give a constant 'threat' to the mutant way of life (tm). The closest they came was when they lived on an Island off the coast of San Fransisco (also a ghetto)!

There's no such thing as change in a mainstream comicbook. Unless cancellation looms.
 
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Old 2014-09-06, 10:24 AM   #5
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Marvel don't have the writing chops or resolve between them to move on from a premise that's been central, so we just end up with the same recycled shit-on-a-stick with minor variation. I've lost a lot of interest since things moved on from the status quo of the extinction team and Utopia.

Having said that, the UK Panini reprints have reached the aftermath of AvX and the issues from the originals-in-the-future storyline they've chosen so far haven't been as dire as suspected. They haven't gotten to the Bachalo stuff yet, though.
 
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Old 2014-09-06, 01:01 PM   #6
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I get that you are focusing on it only from an in-fiction viewpoint, and the other Supers books are just as bad with their constant status quo being maintained, but even bloody Spider-Man has moved on from being hated by NYC (although it has taken 70 years! That's progress!).
Except that they've now torpedoed that somewhat with the Superior Spider-man stuff. And the status quo is restored!

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Having said that, the UK Panini reprints have reached the aftermath of AvX and the issues from the originals-in-the-future storyline they've chosen so far haven't been as dire as suspected. They haven't gotten to the Bachalo stuff yet, though.
Surprisingly, the X-books have me somewhat excited at the moment. All-New X-men is probably one of the most pleasant surprises Marvel's come out with in some time. I was totally prepared to hate it, given that Bendis has been annoying the crap out of me for some time, and having the original X-men come to the present is the textbook definition of "This is going to go nowhere". However, they've done some incredibly interesting things, and Immonen's art is ****ing amazing.
 
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Old 2014-09-06, 02:58 PM   #7
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The Superior Spider-Man was never going to last though was it? The minute that came into view I thought 'oh good, some other sales chasing gimmick Marvel have come up with to f**k with Spidey again'. As the poor guy hasn't had enough to put up with over the last 20 years...

I've got to be honest, I've never really got into X-Men. I adored Generation X which was great fun (and felt less like an X-book than anything else), but even that got silly with M being revealed to be a kind of gestalt entity made up of midgets. That kind of sh*t really turns me off and worse, stops my suspension of disbelief from working (!).

Marvel had been doing some interesting things between House Of M and AvX with X-Men (I dabbled) but since then, there was a feeling of toys being put back in the box in time for Bendis' arrival and another 'Startling New Direction (tm)!'.

I'm glad you're enjoying All New X-Men. I saw these guys in a recent issue of the Panini's UK Spider-Man book and found the 'fish out of water' thing a bit tiresome. And gimmicky.
 
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Old 2014-09-06, 03:50 PM   #8
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The Superior Spider-Man was never going to last though was it? The minute that came into view I thought 'oh good, some other sales chasing gimmick Marvel have come up with to f**k with Spidey again'. As the poor guy hasn't had enough to put up with over the last 20 years...
My point, though, was that in the lead-up to Superior, Spider-man was adored by the city of New York. Even JJJ liked him.

Following Superior, Ock's actions have turned a lot of people against him, thus restoring the status quo.

I was agreeing with you.

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Marvel had been doing some interesting things between House Of M and AvX with X-Men (I dabbled) but since then, there was a feeling of toys being put back in the box in time for Bendis' arrival and another 'Startling New Direction (tm)!'.

I'm glad you're enjoying All New X-Men. I saw these guys in a recent issue of the Panini's UK Spider-Man book and found the 'fish out of water' thing a bit tiresome. And gimmicky.
Which is what I'd expected, and that's how other writers are approaching it. But in the actual book, Bendis is doing a lot of really interesting things. I read the book on a lark, and it's one that I now actively look forward to.

Cyclops is having to deal with the fact that he killed the man who's like a father to him, and has now gone to spend time with Corsair.

Jean is having to deal with the fact that she and Cyclops (who at this point in time hadn't even confessed his feelings) get married and she dies twice. Additonally, her telepathic powers activated early, and she's gone to a really dark place. Her fear over the future caused her to start a relationship with Beast, which immediately hit the skids.

Angel has to deal with the fact that not only does he get warped by Apocalypse and wind up with metal wings, but (post-Uncanny X-force) everything he is gets burned away and he essentially ceases to exist.

Beast is confronted by the changes that have occurred and will continue to occur, as well as the cavalier nature with which he treats the space-time continuum, and the fact that he may have utterly and completely destroyed the timestream.

Iceman is just an idiot.

Suddenly, they find themselves in a future where they've made essentially no difference, and they're on a team with their greatest enemy.

"Fish out of water" is a gross oversimplification.
 
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Old 2014-09-06, 10:49 PM   #9
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I loved X-Factor (I haven't read All-New X-Factor yet) and how Peter David made it just a joy to read except for that bit where they relocated to Detroit for what seemed to be one bad joke at the artist's expense and crossover with the She-Hulk series that David was writing at the time during The Secret Invasion event.

But still there was a lot of great stuff in that series
 



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Old 2014-09-07, 01:17 PM   #10
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Sounds like All New X-Men is being used almost as a critique of where the X-Men have ended up..!
 
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Old 2014-09-08, 01:30 PM   #11
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Sounds like All New X-Men is being used almost as a critique of where the X-Men have ended up..!
Partially. More than anything, though, it's just a good hero book. One of the few that I genuinely look forward to.

One of the others is All-New X-factor, as David had Pietro drop the whole "It was a Skrull! I didn't do anything!" shtick. As publicly as possible. I don't know that it lives up to the early issues of the last volume, but I'm enjoying immensely.
 
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Old 2014-09-08, 03:32 PM   #12
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I haven't read All-New X-Factor yet
How about V for Vendetta? Read that yet?
 
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Old 2014-09-08, 08:55 PM   #13
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Partially. More than anything, though, it's just a good hero book. One of the few that I genuinely look forward to.

One of the others is All-New X-factor, as David had Pietro drop the whole "It was a Skrull! I didn't do anything!" shtick. As publicly as possible. I don't know that it lives up to the early issues of the last volume, but I'm enjoying immensely.
X-Factor! That is good. Haven't read it for ages though, getting my Peter David fix from the revived Spider-Man 2099, which I massively enjoyed the original run of and am very pleased to see back, even if it is set in the present day.

I am glad the Skrull stuff has been dropped, that was cack!
 
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Old 2014-09-09, 04:41 PM   #14
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X-Factor! That is good. Haven't read it for ages though, getting my Peter David fix from the revived Spider-Man 2099, which I massively enjoyed the original run of and am very pleased to see back, even if it is set in the present day.
Me, too. It's good to see Miguel back in action. The first issue was incredibly enjoyable and, while the next two dragged a bit, I'm looking forward to what they're going to do with him. I always felt like the 2099 stuff started getting kind of **** on after a while, as there were false starts, retcons, and unnecessary disasters. Then the whole thing got rebooted, and Miggy was suddenly a high school student.

Mmmmmno.

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I am glad the Skrull stuff has been dropped, that was cack!
Yeah, it always seemed like a fairly cheap way to restore Pietro's norm. Truthfully, that's been my biggest problem with Marvel for a few years now. They shake things up, which is fine, and there aren't many lasting effects. But when there are, they let them go up to a certain point, then deus ex machina things back into place. Quicksilver made a number of mistakes post-Decimation, and having him blame the Skrulls cut off any chance of character development.

I'm glad PAD is getting things back on the rails.
 
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Old 2014-09-12, 08:04 AM   #15
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I always felt like the 2099 stuff started getting kind of **** on after a while, as there were false starts, retcons, and unnecessary disasters. Then the whole thing got rebooted, and Miggy was suddenly a high school student.
I think the 2099 imprint just suffered the usual crass problems Marvel have with successful things - they expanded it too quickly and it too quickly became about responding to reader requests to have a future version of so and so.

The initial four books were decent (well, Ravage was pretty dire even after Stan Lee was politely asked to leave) with Doom and Spider-Man being the best.

I didn't think they suffered too badly from crossover nonsense. There was that 'Fall Of The Hammer' crossover that was 5 or 6 parts long and then the books were left to plough their own furrow until the imprint was axed due to Marvel's financial problems in 1996. They thought the best way to wrap it up was by an hilarious bloodbath, which sucked balls. Peter David famously quit Spider-Man 2099 over an argument about a plot line he'd been seeding about the future Green Goblin.

I have to be honest, I haven't been following Marvel's odd revisits to 2099 over the last few years, so I'm not aware of the retcons they've applied. I do recall Spider-Man 2099 did run a 'Young Miguel O'Hara' back up strip during the #30s focusing on his high school days, but this wasn't a reboot but just a 'double feature' that helped flesh out Miguel's backstory.
 
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Old 2014-09-12, 01:24 PM   #16
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They thought the best way to wrap it up was by an hilarious bloodbath, which sucked balls. Peter David famously quit Spider-Man 2099 over an argument about a plot line he'd been seeding about the future Green Goblin.
The aforementioned retcons and unnecessary disasters.

It's kind of funny that Marvel's answer to "Well, what now?" is to have a flood wipe out a ton of characters.

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I do recall Spider-Man 2099 did run a 'Young Miguel O'Hara' back up strip during the #30s focusing on his high school days, but this wasn't a reboot but just a 'double feature' that helped flesh out Miguel's backstory.
The rebooted, teenage version of Miguel was in Timestorm. He gets his powers differently, then gets talked out of being a hero by the modern-day Spider-Man (because, apparently, with great power comes great hypocrisy).

Still, it's preferable to World of Tomorrow, with its "THEY ALL LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER THE END" crap.
 
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Old 2014-09-13, 05:35 AM   #17
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...Glad I missed those then. They sound just...great.
 
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Old 2014-11-02, 08:46 PM   #18
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How about V for Vendetta? Read that yet?
Yes. I've read V For Vendetta and I've bought All-New X-Factor #1-14.

For me, it's not reading it that is the problem it's being able to afford to buy the comics and still be able to enough money to buy something to eat, that is the problem. I've cut the number of comics I buy a month down to the lowest it's been in years (and not any buying TPBs and HCs helps considerable) and I've had to drop a LOT of titles that I loved.
 



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Old 2014-11-05, 06:58 PM   #19
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Apparently, we have different experiences with ghettos. It's fairly rare that people are relegated to a ghetto because things are ridiculously awesome. They're usually a result of institutionalized racism or classism.
Mutants had it "best" in the MC-2 while older people who still had bigoty the younger generation was becoming more tolerate of them (think LGBT in the USA and you get idea) to the point where even Wild Thing (Wolverine and Elektra's daughter) who everyone knew she was a mutant went to the same public high school with Spider-Girl (Mary Jane and Spider-Man's daughter) and J2 (the Juggernaught's son) although they never shown to hang out or meet.

Peter Parker and Wolverine didn't want their daughters being in the family business due to the all hardships they had to put up with, Elektra did want Wild Thing to be a superhero. To them a mother/daughter day was fighting ninjas where as for Mary Jane and Spider-Girl went shopping.
 



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