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Old 2015-09-26, 08:42 PM   #1
inflatable dalek
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Red face Dalek and Warcry's Endless Star Trek Thread

Because we loooooooooooooooooooooove to talk Star Trek in other threads. So it's time we had one of our own!

This picks up from that thread on that other franchise. Can't remember the name of it now. Buck Rogers or something.


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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
I think the first film actually set up a good reason for him to be more oddball than the original Scotty (he's basically gone stir crazy), and for me it creates a nice contrast to the more straight laced others (it's telling he's the one who doesn't have a problem telling Kirk where to get off with the torpedoes).

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It gives a good excuse for him to be the silly joke character, yes. I don't think that plays well into giving him actual, serious plotlines though. After the first one, my reaction was "Oh, Scotty's just being nuts again..." Especially since randomly flipping out over torpedoes is a bit odd to begin with. I mean, this can't be the first time that classified, experimental weapons have been loaded aboard a Starfleet ship. It's the sort of thing that happens all the time in real life.
Torpedoes that are supposed to be insanely advanced and which no one will let him look at and which they're going to use to bomb the shit out of a region on the homeworld of a race who don't need much of an excuse to start a beef with Star Fleet. All sensible warning signs and it's only Kirk being out for revenge for Pike that makes him initially not see it.


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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Troi certainly looked better once they put her in proper clothes.
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OH MY GOD YES. In spite of being nearly a decade older she was so much sexier once Jellico made her start dressing like a normal human being. Before that it was impossible to take her seriously. And her wardrobes in the films were even better. Honestly I'm not sure how they managed to make her look so bad earlier on unless they were actively trying to.

The scripts started treating her with a lot more respect around the same time, though, so I'm not sure that it was just the costume change that made her more attractive.
Yeah, I mean who would want a psychiatrist dressed like that? Who could read your thoughts? Barcley reacted in the only sane way to being confronted with that.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
There's a mentallity in Berman era Trek costumes that "Tight" automatically equates to "Sexy", as if being able to count a woman's ribs is a real turn on. Troi, Seven, and T'Pol (oddly Kira wore a similar catsuit but it actually worked for her somehow) were all played by women who looked much more stunning in real life they they ever did in their catsuits that often looked made out of old carpet. Sadly Troi was the only one who got to dress sensibly and then drastically add to the sex appeal, that, let's face it, was the only reason for the character being there.

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Female costume designs are pretty awful all-around in TNG-and-later Trek. It says something when the blatantly oversexed stuff from the 60s show still represent the best female wardrobe the franchise has ever seen.
Thesis in the 60's seemed to have a knack for coming up with outfits that looked basically obscene but which the women generally seemed to have enjoyed wearing, you'll often hear them saying in interviews how much they loved the clothes. Being confident in what you're wearing (and you know, able to breath. I believe Jeri Ryan passed out at least once) likely makes a huge amount of difference.

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Ironically she, like Troi, looked her best when they put her in a Starfleet uniform for the last few episodes of the last season. And that was pretty clearly her least sexed-up outfit of all.
Yah, the FC uniforms generally looked better on everyone that the previous efforts, and in the case of the women though they were clearly tighter than those of the men they managed to still look like something you'd wear to work.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Odd how Crusher and the Dax's managed to avoid it.

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Crusher actually ran around in a catsuit version of the standard uniform for some reason during the TV series, even after the guys moved to the more conservatively-cut outfits in season three. But then she wore a lab coat over it 90% of the time, so I'm not sure what the point was. The overall effect was no more revealing than if they'd just put her in a looser outfit like the guys.
All the women's uniform's (unless they were very old) were still the catsuit version though (to be fair, lower ranking men stayed in them after season 3 switched to the two piece as well. But if any had a decent role--Barcley, O'Brien, Wesley after his totally random promotion--they'd get the newer uniform automatically whilst Ro, Crusher and post Jellico Troi didn't), it's gratuitously sexist but leaves her with more dignity than Troi's catsuits ever did her.


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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Factor in Worf seems to be asleep, Riker looks terrible (the topless scene is the most terrifying in the film) and I'm not sure if Geordi is in it and it's an odd film for the regulars. Ironically considering he wanted to be killed off as he was getting too old to play an android, Spiner gets away with it because the make up hides a multitude of sins.
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TBH I think Data threw me off the most. He'd been gaining weight slowly since he started playing data but for Nemesis he was noticeably pudgy. That's not a big deal for a human character but it's a bit more obvious when the ageless robot gains weight.
The One With Data's Mom in season 7 actually handwaves Data's changing appearance by saying he has an ageing program. It's a gratuitous retcon that contradicts all sorts of earlier lines of dialogue, but it was a sensible retcon to deal with the issue. Then they almost instantly forgot about this and come All Good Things Data is shown not to age in 20 years...

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Re: Riker, his beardless turn in Insurrection is way more terrifying than anything that happens in Nemesis.
If only they'd have Picard grow hair, I'd forgive the film its crap bits.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Hey, Picard acting in a completely different way to how he did in the episode with exactly the same plot where it was all brown people in peril and they were led by a wrinkly old man rather than a milf doesn't make it out of character, it just reveals he was a really horrible racist all along.
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That whole thing was silly anyway. Picard is the polar opposite of Kirk temperament-wise and would have loved being an admiral or retiring to become an ambassador and putter away in archaeology digs on his off-days.
Yeah, shows like Redemption make it clear he'd be in his element bossing lots of ships about. A promotion to Admiral for him and Riker carrying on as Captain of the Enterprise with them teaming up every couple of years for a film would have made much more sense.

Mind, Generations is a bloody awful film for Picard. I don't know if it was Moore's TOS fanboy tendencies making him overwrite Kirk as The Best or Shatner's demands, but the whole film gives them an insanely unbalanced relationship. Picard is more than Kirk's equal and their team up should have been level pegging but instead Kirk is just so much better in every way. Picard sits around cring and living a bizare Victorian fantasy and needs help to punch an old man.

Kirk's ultimate fantasy is to ruggedly chop wood up in the mountains. He saves the Enterprise in the first ten minutes of the film. He basically treats Picard as his camp sidekick. That basically undid the TNG films before they started.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Tomalak was an odd one in that the character was completely generic (and not even really in his last two appearances), pretty much every other Romulan Commander could have been made him with absolutely no rewriting. That's entirely down to the actor and it's a shame both the Selar idea and Babylon 5 basically stopped him showing up.
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Yeah, it's a testament to how awesome Andreas Katsulas was that people loved the character in spite of him basically never doing anything of note.

I thought Sela was the coolest thing ever when I was a kid, but as an adult...wow she sucked, didn't she? Denise Crosby was probably the weakest actor from the original main cast but even then they really didn't give her much to work with.
Yeah, she might have improved if she'd stayed on the show as the other weak links did, but she really doesn't have the clout to carry Lead Villain status. All her reveal does is drag down the pace of Redemption 2 as the plot has to stop for ten minutes so she can be explained. And then Picard just goes "Well, it doesn't matter" and it never gets mentioned again. Ten minutes later Worf sees her on TV and doesn't even react!

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Yeah, there's actually a reasonable explanation for him being a very different character: We've only ever seen Khan as a freshly woken up in the 23rd century uncertain plotter with his charisma turned up to 11 to get people onside or as completely off his tits and driven mad by isolation and death. A version woken up early who's had time to adjust, who's been working got Starfleet for at least a few years (and the idea that the Federation would react badly to the destruction of Vulcan is a good one) should be a very different man. It's just a bad sort of different though.

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True enough. But by the same token, if he's so changed as to be a completely different person then why even bother using Khan to start with?
I suppose if they'd just kept him That Bloke (and the Khan reveal is one of the weak areas of the film because it doesn't really explain who he is, the natural reaction to "I AM KHAN!" is "Err, great") people would just moan that having a super strong villain was just a Khan ripoff regardless of any other differences.
 
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Old 2015-09-26, 08:54 PM   #2
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Well, yes, I see your point, but is Darth Vader really Luke Skywalker's father?
 

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Old 2015-09-26, 08:55 PM   #3
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Well, yes, I see your point, but is Darth Vader really Luke Skywalker's father?
Hoist by my own petard.
 
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Old 2015-09-26, 09:08 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Hoist by my own petard.
I think you mean "Picard", and don't bring Hoist into this. This board has nothing to do with Transformers.

Bidi-bidi-bidi-Buck.
 

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Old 2015-09-27, 12:43 AM   #5
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Get out, this thread is specifically for Dalek and Warcry! It's on the thread title and everything!
 

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Old 2015-09-27, 03:36 PM   #6
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I don't think taking this to its own thread is enough.

It needs taking to its own forum.

Another forum.

A long way from this one.

Like a Star Trek forum or something. Presumably something like that exists. The internet's full of weird niche shit.
 
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Old 2015-09-27, 03:48 PM   #7
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Like Jonathan Frakes' terrifying beardless visage?
 

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Old 2015-09-29, 09:04 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Torpedoes that are supposed to be insanely advanced and which no one will let him look at and which they're going to use to bomb the shit out of a region on the homeworld of a race who don't need much of an excuse to start a beef with Star Fleet. All sensible warning signs and it's only Kirk being out for revenge for Pike that makes him initially not see it.
Right, and "We're going to senselessly bomb Quo'nos!" would be a reasonable thing to get upset about. "I'm not allowed to tinker with the equipment we're going to use to senselessly bomb Quo'nos", less so.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Yeah, I mean who would want a psychiatrist dressed like that? Who could read your thoughts? Barcley reacted in the only sane way to being confronted with that.
And it's not only the patients who would be uncomfortable. Deanna must have had super thick skin to not be bothered by all the patients ogling her while she was trying to work. Though I suppose she'd have to be used to it, considering Betazoid culture in general and her own mother's behaviour.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Yah, the FC uniforms generally looked better on everyone that the previous efforts, and in the case of the women though they were clearly tighter than those of the men they managed to still look like something you'd wear to work.
The First Contact-style uniforms are one of the few Trek costume styles that I actually like, to be honest. The TOS ones just look like casual wear and the early TNG skin-tight stuff were just awkward. The late TNG stuff looked good but were a bit too stiff and formal (Geordi looks ridiculous crawling through the Jefferies Tubes in the things), and you could say the same for the gorgeous-but-impractical red outfits from the later TOS films. The early DS9/Voyager uniforms had potential as futuristic work-overalls, but they were cut weird and didn't wind up looking all that practical -- I think the Enterprise uniforms finally managed to pull off the look they were going for with these.

The First Contact outfits are a happy medium for me. They look dressy, but not uncomfortable or impractical.

(I honestly don't remember what the TMP uniforms even look like.)

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
All the women's uniform's (unless they were very old) were still the catsuit version though (to be fair, lower ranking men stayed in them after season 3 switched to the two piece as well. But if any had a decent role--Barcley, O'Brien, Wesley after his totally random promotion--they'd get the newer uniform automatically whilst Ro, Crusher and post Jellico Troi didn't), it's gratuitously sexist but leaves her with more dignity than Troi's catsuits ever did her.
I'm pretty sure I saw a few female extras wandering around in male-cut uniforms from time to time, but I'd imagine that's just because they stuffed the extras into whatever fit and didn't think too much about it.

I never really noticed that Ro and Crusher weren't wearing the looser-cut outfits until this last watch-through, but Shelby's really bothered me. I think I just noticed it because she wasn't as...statuesque as most of the recurring female cast.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Yeah, shows like Redemption make it clear he'd be in his element bossing lots of ships about. A promotion to Admiral for him and Riker carrying on as Captain of the Enterprise with them teaming up every couple of years for a film would have made much more sense.
That probably would have been the way to go after Generations, I agree. I don't think it would have even changed the plot of the following movies all that much. It would have been a tad more difficult to get Picard involved in First Contact if he wasn't captain of his own ship, but Insurrection and Nemesis both start off with diplomatic missions that a flag officer would plausibly be assigned to.

Oh, and I just remembered another reason why Insurrection was hopelessly stupid -- they spent all that time dicking around on a backwards nothing planet while the Federation was embroiled in a desperate war for its own survival against the Dominion. You couldn't even handwave it as "no, no, it's being released in the same year as season 6/7 of DS9 but it's actually set a few years before" because they actively call it out. I mean, hell, the Breen are bombing San Francisco and the Jem'hadar are rampaging across Betazed. Don't you guys have better things to do?

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Mind, Generations is a bloody awful film for Picard. I don't know if it was Moore's TOS fanboy tendencies making him overwrite Kirk as The Best or Shatner's demands, but the whole film gives them an insanely unbalanced relationship. Picard is more than Kirk's equal and their team up should have been level pegging but instead Kirk is just so much better in every way.
Honestly I think the movie treats Kirk like shit too. He starts off as a useless old man and segues into trying to live in denial in a fantasy world before dying like a bitch at the hands of a nobody. The fact that Picard somehow winds up looking worse than this washed-up old coot only solidifies how bad a movie this was.

It's weird because the TV series never paid homage to the TOS characters who showed up. McCoy doesn't really count since he was a throwaway cameo, but Scotty came out looking like Geordi's equal rather than his superior and Spock was actually put in his place by Picard in a way that Kirk never, ever would have been able to do. They respected the characters, but they didn't worship them the way Generations did.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Picard sits around cring and living a bizare Victorian fantasy and needs help to punch an old man.

Kirk's ultimate fantasy is to ruggedly chop wood up in the mountains.
Right, this right here illustrates what I was saying before. Kirk wants to live his life as a rugged pioneer, while Picard wants to build a happy, orderly family for himself (and what was Picard in the series if not a strict father to his crew?) Kirk needs to constantly be running away from responsibility (beyond the wellbeing of himself and his crew) and civilization to live the life he wants. But Picard could be happy anywhere as long as he's surrounded by the people he cares about, and he loves responsibility and administrative duties.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Yeah, she might have improved if she'd stayed on the show as the other weak links did, but she really doesn't have the clout to carry Lead Villain status. All her reveal does is drag down the pace of Redemption 2 as the plot has to stop for ten minutes so she can be explained. And then Picard just goes "Well, it doesn't matter" and it never gets mentioned again. Ten minutes later Worf sees her on TV and doesn't even react!
I did enjoy seeing her utterly shut down by Picard, Data and Spock, though. She deserved it for being phenomenally stupid.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
I suppose if they'd just kept him That Bloke (and the Khan reveal is one of the weak areas of the film because it doesn't really explain who he is, the natural reaction to "I AM KHAN!" is "Err, great") people would just moan that having a super strong villain was just a Khan ripoff regardless of any other differences.
Eh. Nearly every alien on Star Trek is super-strong. Just make him part Vulcan or Klingon and call it a day.
 
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Old 2015-10-02, 02:41 PM   #9
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And it's not only the patients who would be uncomfortable. Deanna must have had super thick skin to not be bothered by all the patients ogling her while she was trying to work. Though I suppose she'd have to be used to it, considering Betazoid culture in general and her own mother's behaviour.
Well we do get a good look at most of that skin.

I suppose the idea is humans are now evolved beyond having a perv... Well except for Riker. And Worf that time he oggled Vash. And Robin Leffler when she was checking out Wesley. And that woman ensign in Encounter at Farpoint who is really keen to show Riker how to use her interface...

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The First Contact-style uniforms are one of the few Trek costume styles that I actually like, to be honest. The TOS ones just look like casual wear and the early TNG skin-tight stuff were just awkward. The late TNG stuff looked good but were a bit too stiff and formal (Geordi looks ridiculous crawling through the Jefferies Tubes in the things), and you could say the same for the gorgeous-but-impractical red outfits from the later TOS films. The early DS9/Voyager uniforms had potential as futuristic work-overalls, but they were cut weird and didn't wind up looking all that practical -- I think the Enterprise uniforms finally managed to pull off the look they were going for with these.
I suppose you could argue the FC outfits are a bit dark considering Trek's general reputation for colour, but yeah, I do like them.

Of course, in the perfectly controlled environment of a spaceship a simple jumpsuit is probably all you'd need (though Star Fleet have a real problem with appropriate clothing for different missions and environments, how many time across all the shows do characters go on stealth missions in their brightly coloured costumes?).

It's odd actually how the TOS uniforms really work despite, as you say, being far too fancy for day to day wear. They just look right somehow.

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(I honestly don't remember what the TMP uniforms even look like.)
They give you a nice idea of what Stephen Collins penis looks like.


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I never really noticed that Ro and Crusher weren't wearing the looser-cut outfits until this last watch-through, but Shelby's really bothered me. I think I just noticed it because she wasn't as...statuesque as most of the recurring female cast.
I know the actress felt a lot of stress about fitting into that outfit again after the summer break.

Shelby was fantastic, how the hell did we get Laxwana every year but not one return appearance from her?

I never really noticed Ro as a kid, but when going through the show on Blu Ray... yeah, Michelle Forbes wore it well.

I'm just a disgusting pervert after all.


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That probably would have been the way to go after Generations, I agree. I don't think it would have even changed the plot of the following movies all that much. It would have been a tad more difficult to get Picard involved in First Contact if he wasn't captain of his own ship, but Insurrection and Nemesis both start off with diplomatic missions that a flag officer would plausibly be assigned to.
The Enterprise being on a diplomatic mission in Nemesis would have been a sensible way to use Worf as well, have Shebangs specifically request the Ambassador handle the negotiations knowing it'll be Picard that brings him (in the final film his entire plan would have been buggered if they'd sent any other ship).

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Oh, and I just remembered another reason why Insurrection was hopelessly stupid -- they spent all that time dicking around on a backwards nothing planet while the Federation was embroiled in a desperate war for its own survival against the Dominion. You couldn't even handwave it as "no, no, it's being released in the same year as season 6/7 of DS9 but it's actually set a few years before" because they actively call it out. I mean, hell, the Breen are bombing San Francisco and the Jem'hadar are rampaging across Betazed. Don't you guys have better things to do?
I can see why they did Insurrection as a stand alone film. Even allowing for the fact that DS9 was a lot less popular than TNG so even a majority of the American audience wouldn't know about the Dominion War, in pre-streaming days a film dependent on international box office couldn't really tie into the plot of a series that was being broadcast at different rates all over the world. I think when it came out Sky was roughly up to speed with DS9 (maybe a few weeks behind?), but for those of us dependent on BBC2 the film would have been our first introduction to the Dominion War. Doing a standalone made more sense in terms of audiences.

Of course, in retrospect, knowing that (though it wasn't a disaster, it just did OK and a lot down on FC) it was the beginning of the end they might as well have gone all out on a full on fanwank Dominion War film. Though based on Nemesis Picard would have stormed Cardassia by himself and head butted the female changling to death.

Or you know, at least mention Worf's been having a bad time of it.

IIRC Michael Piller did ask Behr about doing some sort of crossover with the War in DS9, but was told it would probably be over by the time the film came out. Considering how pissed he was about the treatment of the Defiant in FC I wouldn't be surprised in Behr just lied so he could carry on just doing his own thing.


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I did enjoy seeing her utterly shut down by Picard, Data and Spock, though. She deserved it for being phenomenally stupid.
The "Have you considered another career?" line is the best bit of the two parter.

There are fans who, even now, say Selar should have been the lead villain in Nemesis. Which is akin to those G1ers who insist what's really wrong with the Bay films is they're not a direct remake of the '86 movie. I mean, whatever problems Nemesis has, Tom Hardy's performance isn't one of them and the idea that having Lois and Clark semi-regular Crosby as the main baddy rather than someone who has gone on to be a well liked big Hollywood star is silly.


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Eh. Nearly every alien on Star Trek is super-strong. Just make him part Vulcan or Klingon and call it a day.
Nero was a Romulan and everyone still called him a cheap Khan knock off.
 
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Old 2015-10-07, 05:51 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
I suppose the idea is humans are now evolved beyond having a perv... Well except for Riker. And Worf that time he oggled Vash. And Robin Leffler when she was checking out Wesley. And that woman ensign in Encounter at Farpoint who is really keen to show Riker how to use her interface...
Actually, given the way early TNG seemed to be mainly about Roddenberry wish-fulfillment, he probably intended that people had "evolved" beyond being bothered when he people ogled them rather than the reverse.

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I suppose you could argue the FC outfits are a bit dark considering Trek's general reputation for colour, but yeah, I do like them.
A bit dark, for sure. But they've got a good mix of function, formality and looks that nothing else from the franchise can really match.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Of course, in the perfectly controlled environment of a spaceship a simple jumpsuit is probably all you'd need (though Star Fleet have a real problem with appropriate clothing for different missions and environments, how many time across all the shows do characters go on stealth missions in their brightly coloured costumes?).
Occasionally they'd introduce other mission-specialty uniforms, like the black combat jumpsuits from late DS9 or the engineering jumpsuits in TNG, but all that ever did was make the 95% of missions where they went out in their fancy uniforms stand out all the more.

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Shelby was fantastic, how the hell did we get Laxwana every year but not one return appearance from her?
Barrett being married to Roddenberry probably helped. I mean, she was probably on-set every week trying to keep him from boning the extras anyway, in the early years...

Shelby was fantastic, though. I've always wondered was how the later seasons of TNG would have turned out in an alternate universe where Patrick Stewart didn't manage to hash out a new contract and Picard was killed off for real. The Enterprise would have been a very different place with Captain Riker and Commander Shelby as the leads...

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
I can see why they did Insurrection as a stand alone film. Even allowing for the fact that DS9 was a lot less popular than TNG so even a majority of the American audience wouldn't know about the Dominion War, in pre-streaming days a film dependent on international box office couldn't really tie into the plot of a series that was being broadcast at different rates all over the world. I think when it came out Sky was roughly up to speed with DS9 (maybe a few weeks behind?), but for those of us dependent on BBC2 the film would have been our first introduction to the Dominion War. Doing a standalone made more sense in terms of audiences.
But they tossed in just enough references to the war to make it feel weird. If Crazy Admiral #872 doesn't go on about how the Federation needs to screw over the Space Elves because it'd help with the war effort (...how, exactly?) or talk about how the Son'a are vital wartime allies, it would be easy to assume that it was set before or after the war (which only lasted, what, two years?) Especially now that enough time has passed that most people don't remember it was released during the last couple years of DS9. But by explicitly setting it during the war, the movie lives in this weird corner where dicking around spying on a handful of hippies and trying to steal their pixie dust is somehow more important than the conflict that sees core Federation members occupied and bombarded from orbit with regularity.

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Or you know, at least mention Worf's been having a bad time of it.
This really stuck out too. Like...his wife just died a few months ago and nobody even offers him condolences. Though none of the Enterprise crew were invited to the wedding, so I suppose they might still be a bit pissy over that...

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IIRC Michael Piller did ask Behr about doing some sort of crossover with the War in DS9, but was told it would probably be over by the time the film came out. Considering how pissed he was about the treatment of the Defiant in FC I wouldn't be surprised in Behr just lied so he could carry on just doing his own thing.
Can't say that I'd blame him, honestly.

Speaking of the Defiant and First Contact, am I the only one who'll forever be disappointed that they didn't use that as an excuse to rope O'Brien into a TNG movie? I know he wasn't main cast, but he was just as important to the really good middle seasons as Crusher or Geordi. And, hell, they managed to fit Barclay in... It was also sort of a shame that Guinan never did anything after Generations, though the Enterprise-E didn't really seem to have a civilian complement on it the way the old Galaxy-class ship did. But how much more meaning would that Ahab speech have carried if it came from Picard's old friend instead of some random chick that they picked up the night before?

And on a similar note, I know that Forbes turned down a starring role on DS9 because she didn't want to commit to a series for seven years, but I really wish they'd been able to bring Ro in for a guest shot every once in a while. She and Kira would have gotten along like a house on fire.

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The "Have you considered another career?" line is the best bit of the two parter.
Deadpan Spock at his finest.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
There are fans who, even now, say Selar should have been the lead villain in Nemesis. Which is akin to those G1ers who insist what's really wrong with the Bay films is they're not a direct remake of the '86 movie. I mean, whatever problems Nemesis has, Tom Hardy's performance isn't one of them and the idea that having Lois and Clark semi-regular Crosby as the main baddy rather than someone who has gone on to be a well liked big Hollywood star is silly.
I wouldn't have been upset to see Sela appear in the film, but certainly not as the lead. She just wasn't good enough to carry it off. Swapping her in instead of Donatra, on the other hand, would have been cool.

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Nero was a Romulan and everyone still called him a cheap Khan knock off.
Which he wasn't, not even a little. If anything, he felt like a character that wandered out of 24...
 
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Old 2015-10-07, 06:21 PM   #11
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With all the mentions of Shelby, Selar, Lefler, etc. have either of you read the New Frontier books?
 
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Old 2015-10-07, 06:37 PM   #12
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I have! I loved the first...oh, half of them, I'd say. But after he blew up Excalibur and split up the crew I found that the magic was gone, and I just got less and less interested with each ensuing time-skip.
 
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Old 2015-10-07, 10:56 PM   #13
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IIRC Guinan was in Star Trek: Nemesis although it might have been in a deleted scene at the wedding where someone (it might have been Wesley Crusher) asked her if she had any thoughts on re-marrying and she makes a crack "No. the 20th time was enough for me" or something to that effect. There was also a deleted scene at the end (I think) where Dr. Crusher was the new head of Starfleet Medical (I think there might have been more references to this but it was also deleted for time) to make room for the new Captain's chair with a seat belt gag.

I think if a lot of the deleted scenes (that aren't just pure fan wanks) were added back in to Nemesis it actually make more sense continuity wise.

Why Worf was there was never explained.
I've always thought the best way to explain why Worf is there is that he should've been a guest at wedding (which would make the most sense) when they get the mission they can't take him back to the Klingon Empire because it's in the opposite direction and, so he comes along for the ride (if anything else they should have added a scene where tells Picard that he contacted the Empire and now he's there officially to make sure the Klingon Empire isn't going to be threaten by the problems on Romulus) and also because he's a badass Klingon Warrior what is going to do, sit on his ass and let Picard have all the fun?

Some of Nemesis problems were an over-packed script, a director known for action films, poor editing decisions (by a director who was an editor no less) to make it action-packed and that meant quick pacing. The cost of that quick pacing was the lost of most of the movie's story and thematic elements. The major theme was supposed to be the end of a family, but other than Picard, Data, Riker, and Troi none of the other characters in the cast get much to do if anything other than spout the usual Star Trek technobabble.

I still think Star Trek: Nemesis is much better than the 2 directed by JJ Abrams which are 100% crap.
 



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Old 2015-10-08, 01:33 AM   #14
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I still think Star Trek: Nemesis is much better than the 2 directed by JJ Abrams which are 100% crap.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. They're all shit, but Nemesis also happens to be the finale of the TNG era in general.

Which is kinda like if B.O.T. had been the last Transformers episode ever
 
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Old 2015-10-08, 07:45 AM   #15
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Actually, given the way early TNG seemed to be mainly about Roddenberry wish-fulfillment, he probably intended that people had "evolved" beyond being bothered when he people ogled them rather than the reverse.
"Nice planet"

Have you seen Chaos on the Bridge? I don't think it covers much you won't know, but it's nice to have a concise summary of all the weird shit and involves a couple of people not on the blu ray features (including Maurice Hurley, though it doesn't really touch on his sexual harassment of McFadden unsurprisingly), and Shatner actually makes a good host, mostly just sitting back and letting the people talk, only really mucking about with Frakes and Ira Steven Behr.

It's interesting that, in order to have at least some balance, they made sure to get someone in who thinks Roddenberry's ideas for TNG were good, but the best they can manage is Brannon Braga who didn't work on season 1.

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Occasionally they'd introduce other mission-specialty uniforms, like the black combat jumpsuits from late DS9 or the engineering jumpsuits in TNG, but all that ever did was make the 95% of missions where they went out in their fancy uniforms stand out all the more.
It's a shame the TMP uniforms were (understandably though as no one checked if they could actually be worn without strangling the actor. As the initial TNG uniforms has the same problem and both were the last overseen by Roddenberry I think he must have had some ideas about future fabrics that just didn't work when made with contemporary materials) canned. They actually had a decent costume budget on that one so there's a lot of variety for different purposes, as there is in real navies of course.

The first film costumes, other than the one that lets you see Decker's unit, actually look a lot better now than they did ten years ago, they've come back around again in terms of style. Kirk especially looks really snazzy in all his outfits, it's unsurprising the admiral's uniform he has on when we first see him has just straight up been reused in the new films.


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Barrett being married to Roddenberry probably helped. I mean, she was probably on-set every week trying to keep him from boning the extras anyway, in the early years...
Next you'll be saying there was a good reason she became such good mates with Marina!

It's sad really, the two main (and I'd say Chapple counts as main cast for the series, she's only really overlooked now because the films dropped her as soon as they dropped Roddenberry) female cast-members on TOS are both women he had affairs with.

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Shelby was fantastic, though. I've always wondered was how the later seasons of TNG would have turned out in an alternate universe where Patrick Stewart didn't manage to hash out a new contract and Picard was killed off for real. The Enterprise would have been a very different place with Captain Riker and Commander Shelby as the leads...
I suspect they'd have just promoted Data to first officer, considering he would have been the most popular character left on the show by a big margin, not increasing his role wouldn't have been very likely. Especially as the female characters tend to get poor treatment on TNG anyway.

What I like about Shelby is that there's a nice balance there between her being absolutely right (Riker has not only stagnated, his stubbornness to take the next step is actually hurting the careers of those below him) and her being a bit of a dick (she's so myopic about promotion she seems more worried about that than being turned into a borg). There was a lot of potential there.


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But they tossed in just enough references to the war to make it feel weird. If Crazy Admiral #872 doesn't go on about how the Federation needs to screw over the Space Elves because it'd help with the war effort (...how, exactly?) or talk about how the Son'a are vital wartime allies, it would be easy to assume that it was set before or after the war (which only lasted, what, two years?) Especially now that enough time has passed that most people don't remember it was released during the last couple years of DS9. But by explicitly setting it during the war, the movie lives in this weird corner where dicking around spying on a handful of hippies and trying to steal their pixie dust is somehow more important than the conflict that sees core Federation members occupied and bombarded from orbit with regularity.
Though I've a feeling it's the only Trek film without a stardate (no Captain's log), so we can just imagine it's set earlier.


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This really stuck out too. Like...his wife just died a few months ago and nobody even offers him condolences. Though none of the Enterprise crew were invited to the wedding, so I suppose they might still be a bit pissy over that...
Yeah, at least a nod might have been nice, and given Worf something actually related to his character rather than half arsed comedy. I remember interviews Dorn did at the time to promote the film where he was... decidedly unimpressed. Understandably considering that by that time Worf had already been in more Star Trek than anyone else, which you'd think would mean his character would actually be treated with respect by the film. Or even than his character would be in the film (hey, remember the time Worf refused to disobey Kira's order in Waltz even though it meant abandoning the search for Sisko, presumably leaving him for dead? How how he basically told Bashir to STFU for saying some things are more important than orders? Is this the guy who'd defy Star Fleet?).


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Speaking of the Defiant and First Contact, am I the only one who'll forever be disappointed that they didn't use that as an excuse to rope O'Brien into a TNG movie? I know he wasn't main cast, but he was just as important to the really good middle seasons as Crusher or Geordi. And, hell, they managed to fit Barclay in... It was also sort of a shame that Guinan never did anything after Generations, though the Enterprise-E didn't really seem to have a civilian complement on it the way the old Galaxy-class ship did. But how much more meaning would that Ahab speech have carried if it came from Picard's old friend instead of some random chick that they picked up the night before?
Meany would have been great, though considering both that it was shot between seasons and that he's the only one out of the lot of them at that time with a film career (and apart from Stewart, still the only one) he was almost certainly shooting a mid-budget Irish film at the time.

Of course, it is silly that normally the Defiant can't go anywhere without taking the entire senior crew with it yet Worf is the only one here, despite Sisko being mega pissed with the Borg.

The two theories I've heard on this I really like are:

1: The Borg waited until Sisko was in the Badlands with Eddington as they know the battle would last about five minutes with him around ("RESISTANCE IS FUTILE...he's gone right?").

2: Worf was actually running away from Keiko as he was terrified of having to deliver another baby and just stumbled across the Borg by accident.

Mind, if O'Brien had been aboard he'd probably have done to Geordi what the EMH does to Crusher and completely steal their part of the film from them.

Barclay was actually in the script for Insurrection at one point (seemingly hanging around the bridge with Riker during the nebula battle) before an exec said maybe it would be nice if Geordi had some lines in the movie.

If it's still out there the PDF of Piller's unpublished book about the writing of Insurrection is well worth tracking down. It completely kills a lot of fan myths about the film, in particular that the film was ruined by studio interference and by Stewart and Spiner's demands.

In fact, every single suggestion made by these people was either to the beterment of the film or should have been followed. The suits worked out the Baku dilemma didn't work, Spiner was unhappy with the way Data was written feeling it regressed the character badly, Stewart never rejected the original "Heart of Darkness" script out of hand (Berman rejected it because he thought Stewart would say no, which isn't the same thing and the actor never saw it).

They simply weren't listened too enough, probably as a result of the success of First Contact giving Berman the clout to push things through his way.

Seriously, how often can you say about a failed movie "They should have listened to the executives more"? It's actually quite sad at the end, Piller fights so hard against these outside influences to make the script he wants... and the reaction from the public is a general shoulder shrug and overall agreement with the suggestions he fought against. It's a great shame the career of a man who did so much to save TNG ended with him delivering a blow to the kneecaps from which their films never quite recovered.

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And on a similar note, I know that Forbes turned down a starring role on DS9 because she didn't want to commit to a series for seven years, but I really wish they'd been able to bring Ro in for a guest shot every once in a while. She and Kira would have gotten along like a house on fire.
I guess she pretty much burnt her bridges with first the reluctance to keep coming back and then turning down the DS9 gig. Shame, Forbes is never less than fantastic. As well as BSG her episode of the New Outer Limits is well worth tracking down, it's one of the good ones and she's fantastic in it.


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Deadpan Spock at his finest.
Data man! Data!


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I wouldn't have been upset to see Sela appear in the film, but certainly not as the lead. She just wasn't good enough to carry it off. Swapping her in instead of Donatra, on the other hand, would have been cool.
Yeah, giving her a small role (the Romulan Captain who does the Han Solo and turns up to save the day in the middle of the battle but then winds up being a shit Han Solo because her ship is taken out almost immediately?), just to get the entire opening credits cast in there in some capacity.


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Which he wasn't, not even a little. If anything, he felt like a character that wandered out of 24...
Well, other than him having a planet destroying super weapon and being out for revenge for both the death of his wife and the devastating effect an exploding planet had on his life.

Mind, he's also worryingly like the villain from Nemesis. But he was criticised for being a poor man's Khan as well.


EDIT:

Oh, and on New Frontier, I read the initial mini-series and the next two full length books, but lost track of it after that and it looks a rather hard series to just jump into.
 
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Old 2015-10-08, 08:51 AM   #16
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Hello, me again.

An actual on topic (almost) post now though. Dalek (and anyone else who has an interest in both Who and Trek) - Have you heard about / seen the possible Star Trek easter eggs in the latest Doctor Who story? The Who rumour forums are ablaze with thoughts, some of which are coherent.
 

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Old 2015-10-08, 08:58 AM   #17
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I think the nods (1701 as door signage also does double duty as a BSG reference) are likely down to the designer being a fan more than any great plan.
 
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Old 2015-10-08, 03:00 PM   #18
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I wouldn't be so sure about that. They're all shit, but Nemesis also happens to be the finale of the TNG era in general.

Which is kinda like if B.O.T. had been the last Transformers episode ever
Honestly I haven't seen anything from Abrams as a director that wasn't complete and total shit. M:I 3 was boring. Star Trek looked like a bad Micheal Bay wanna be directed it, and Into Darkness was stupid beyond words.

IMHO he sucks as a director. I would rather watch the worst Micheal Bay or Zack Snyder's films than any Abrams' crap.
 



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Old 2015-10-08, 03:30 PM   #19
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Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting the Abrams Trek movies are good - I just don't think Nemesis is any better. Judging from the comments of Sirtis and Frakes, it's pretty clear the director of that film didn't really seem to care either.

What really grates me is that Star Trek has always (or at least usually) been about big ideas, something even Star Trek V managed to deliver - it's when the fans of the Abrams movies try to defend it by saying it has a message too, but their idea of a "message" is just the usual shallow cliché about friendship, an idea that is neither big or original anymore. In comparison, Star Trek III also dealt with that same message and did it far better - and you might as well argue that Commando is a "deep" film because it values the importance of father/daughter relationships.
 
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Old 2015-10-09, 06:13 AM   #20
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IIRC Guinan was in Star Trek: Nemesis although it might have been in a deleted scene at the wedding where someone (it might have been Wesley Crusher) asked her if she had any thoughts on re-marrying and she makes a crack "No. the 20th time was enough for me" or something to that effect.
I'm 90% that her and Wesley's lines all wound up deleted. It's a shame really...with it being the last outing of the TNG era, if it was going to suck anyway they really needed to just say "screw it", go full fanwank mode and cram in every single familiar face that they could. Hell, throw Guinan in as bartender again and have Wesley fly the ship. They didn't bother to explain why Worf was in uniform again, so it's not like those things would have been any more ridiculous.

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I think if a lot of the deleted scenes (that aren't just pure fan wanks) were added back in to Nemesis it actually make more sense continuity wise.
The one time that I watched the deleted scenes, I remembered thinking how much better they were than anything that actually made it into the finished film.

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I've always thought the best way to explain why Worf is there is that he should've been a guest at wedding (which would make the most sense)
Wait, you mean he wasn't? I always assumed he was because absolutely nothing else makes any sense at all.

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I wouldn't be so sure about that. They're all shit, but Nemesis also happens to be the finale of the TNG era in general.

Which is kinda like if B.O.T. had been the last Transformers episode ever
Fair point. If Nemesis had been the fourth TNG movie out of six I don't think people would hate on it nearly as much. But as the grand finale for the crew that we all grew up with, it's pretty galling.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
Have you seen Chaos on the Bridge? I don't think it covers much you won't know, but it's nice to have a concise summary of all the weird shit and involves a couple of people not on the blu ray features (including Maurice Hurley, though it doesn't really touch on his sexual harassment of McFadden unsurprisingly), and Shatner actually makes a good host, mostly just sitting back and letting the people talk, only really mucking about with Frakes and Ira Steven Behr.
I've never heard of it, actually, but it sounds super interesting. I'll have to track it down!

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It's interesting that, in order to have at least some balance, they made sure to get someone in who thinks Roddenberry's ideas for TNG were good, but the best they can manage is Brannon Braga who didn't work on season 1.
I actually do think at least some of Roddenberry's ideas were good. It's his execution that I have a problem with. By the time TNG rolled around he was a crazy old man who wasn't anywhere near as much of a visionary filmmaker as everyone had told him he was for the previous couple decades. He was much like George Lucas, really...lots and lots of good ideas, but clearly in need of a strong moderating influence that could pull his head out of his ass once in a while.

The biggest problem with the utopian Federation that he'd envisioned was that it was boring if you took it at face value, and he was too idealistic to score points by subverting it like late TNG and DS9 did. The concept really took off once the idea that even paradise wasn't perfect took hold. Seeing Picard or Sisko grapple with hard decisions and figure out how to uphold their morals and save the day is way more interesting than Picard smugly monologuing to aliens about how inferior they were until they got bored and went home.

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Originally Posted by inflatable dalek View Post
The first film costumes, other than the one that lets you see Decker's unit, actually look a lot better now than they did ten years ago, they've come back around again in terms of style. Kirk especially looks really snazzy in all his outfits, it's unsurprising the admiral's uniform he has on when we first see him has just straight up been reused in the new films.
After Googling, I'm going to have to disagree on that. Kirk's admiral's outfit does look pretty cool but everyone else looks like they're in pajamas. I do like the variety on display but when everything is awful that's only a small point in its favour.

I think they'd look immeasurably better with the small addition of a dark belt, though, so it's not a total loss.

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It's sad really, the two main (and I'd say Chapple counts as main cast for the series, she's only really overlooked now because the films dropped her as soon as they dropped Roddenberry) female cast-members on TOS are both women he had affairs with.
And then the third most prominent female character was axed after her actress was sexually assaulted by one of the show's execs. Sadly not a surprise, since the man in charge set the tone by treating his actresses as sex objects that only existed for his own pleasure (and shit, for all we know he could have been the guy who did it...). Not really surprising that the same attitude was able to flourish during the first season of TNG either.

I had no idea Christine Chapel was in as many episodes of the show as Chekov. Yeah, hard to disagree that she was a regular when she was in almost half of the show. I don't think she's forgotten just because she was dropped from the films, though. I think it's mostly because Majel has had far more memorable roles in the TNG-era stuff, both as Lwaxana and the ship's computer. Chapel was there a lot but rarely actually did anything (a description that covers most of the original series crew beyond the big three and Scotty).

What really shocked me, though, is that Mr. Leslie was in more episodes than Chekov or Sulu, and only six fewer than Scotty.

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I suspect they'd have just promoted Data to first officer, considering he would have been the most popular character left on the show by a big margin, not increasing his role wouldn't have been very likely. Especially as the female characters tend to get poor treatment on TNG anyway.
That wouldn't have been a terrible choice either, since Data in a command position is always interesting. Though honestly, if Shelby wasn't the backup plan then I'm inclined to wonder just what she was there for to begin with.

To be honest, as much as I love The Best of Both Worlds (and I love it a lot -- it might just be my favourite Trek story ever, especially if you include Family as a coda) the ending is a bit disappointing for me because it basically kills Riker as a character. I actually think that the title refers to him -- he wanted to be captain but he also wanted to stay with the Enterprise "family", and at the start he's struggling to decide between the two. And then Picard is gone so he gets to have both, and he's left to deal with the guilt of having it all at the cost of another man's life. It's a great character piece for him and he grows so much over the course of those two episodes. But then we need to restore the status quo for the next episode, so they back down from the development that he experienced here and for the next four seasons there's literally nowhere to go with the character. It's just one of those things that I think they would have been able to handle much better in today's TV environment.

To your other point, I've honestly never been able to figure out why Data was so popular. The character is written so inconsistently. Like how he "can't feel any emotions" in spite of curiosity and the desire for self-improvement being the absolute core of the character. I'd be fine with that if there was some room left for us to say "of course he can, he's just so unaware of himself that he doesn't realize" but the script treats it like a factual truth even though we've seen so many times that it's clearly not. I mean, the guy has friends, a desire for self-preservation and self-determination, an insatiable desire to learn, a deep interest in how others' minds work -- none of those things would be true if there wasn't emotion behind them. But yet the show keeps telling us that, no, he's got no feelings just because he doesn't shout at people or get all mushy with members of the opposite sex (except that one time...) The whole thing is a huge middle finger to the core Trek idea that we should respect people's differences...he's clearly got emotions, but they just don't count because they're not the same as ours. As if Data is broken because he's different and he won't be right until what makes him unique is gone and replaced with a cookie-cutter human. And then they don't even have the guts to stick to their guns about that, and after he gains a lot of humanity over the first two films they immediately roll it back for the last two with no explanation given.

Brent Spiner is fantastic and he does a great job with whatever he's given, but what he's given is crap far too often. Its a credit to him really, with a lesser actor in that role Data would have been completely intolerable instead of just likeable-but-disappointing.

On the other hand I love Worf, and the script shits on him nearly as much. So who am I to talk?

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What I like about Shelby is that there's a nice balance there between her being absolutely right (Riker has not only stagnated, his stubbornness to take the next step is actually hurting the careers of those below him) and her being a bit of a dick (she's so myopic about promotion she seems more worried about that than being turned into a borg). There was a lot of potential there.
Yep, that's a great summation of what's so great about her. She's easily the best part of New Frontier for those same reasons, constantly struggling to balance her ambitions against what's right and never quite sure if she's second-guessing her captain because he's an insane savage or because she just wants that fourth pip on her collar.

But for the two episodes that she was on-screen, she had more nuance to her than half of the TNG crew got over seven seasons and four movies.

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Yeah, at least a nod might have been nice, and given Worf something actually related to his character rather than half arsed comedy. I remember interviews Dorn did at the time to promote the film where he was... decidedly unimpressed. Understandably considering that by that time Worf had already been in more Star Trek than anyone else, which you'd think would mean his character would actually be treated with respect by the film. Or even than his character would be in the film (hey, remember the time Worf refused to disobey Kira's order in Waltz even though it meant abandoning the search for Sisko, presumably leaving him for dead? How how he basically told Bashir to STFU for saying some things are more important than orders? Is this the guy who'd defy Star Fleet?).
I don't mind the idea of Worf defying Starfleet in the right situations. He was willing to abandon Sisko because it was the honourable thing to do. They were in the middle of a war zone, other lives were at stake and Sisko would have never wanted his rescue to come at the cost of a convoy of troops. In a different situation, when the ship's main mission was something unimportant, he probably would have agreed with Bashir.

Disobeying orders to save the Baku from obliteration is completely different, and honestly it's probably the sort of thing that he would have argued for on TNG only for Picard to shoot him down because of the Prime Directive.

Using him for bad jokes, on the other hand, was pretty disrespectful to the character and actor. By that point he'd been on ten seasons of TV and two movies, and he deserved a lot more respect than that.

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Meany would have been great, though considering both that it was shot between seasons and that he's the only one out of the lot of them at that time with a film career (and apart from Stewart, still the only one) he was almost certainly shooting a mid-budget Irish film at the time.
A fat Hollywood payday probably would have lured him away, though.

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Of course, it is silly that normally the Defiant can't go anywhere without taking the entire senior crew with it yet Worf is the only one here, despite Sisko being mega pissed with the Borg.
I kinda figure that Sisko got the same treatment as Picard, the whole "no, you stay away, you're too emotionally invested for us to trust you" deal. Though that doesn't explain where O'Brien, Dax, Bashir or Kira are.

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Mind, if O'Brien had been aboard he'd probably have done to Geordi what the EMH does to Crusher and completely steal their part of the film from them.
Not necessarily. He might have gotten tossed in with Picard's crew aboard-ship rather than the group on the surface. I'm not entirely sure what he could have done, but even if he just replaced the random security goon (who it turns out actually had a name, one Lt. Daniels) it would have been nice to see him.

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Seriously, how often can you say about a failed movie "They should have listened to the executives more"?
That's pretty close to a kiss of death. If the suits have better ideas than the creative types, the creatives should probably retire.

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I guess she pretty much burnt her bridges with first the reluctance to keep coming back and then turning down the DS9 gig. Shame, Forbes is never less than fantastic. As well as BSG her episode of the New Outer Limits is well worth tracking down, it's one of the good ones and she's fantastic in it.
Totally agreed. I've loved her in everything I've seen her in, no matter how big or small the role. Even though she was only in it for a few episodes, Forbes' Admiral Cain is easily one of my favourite parts of the new BSG.

(And since you were perving on her earlier, I feel obliged to point out that the lady aged like a fine wine...)

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Data man! Data!
Eh. Basically the same character, right?

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Mind, he's also worryingly like the villain from Nemesis. But he was criticised for being a poor man's Khan as well.
Where Shinzon is concerned, though, I'm pretty sure it was on purpose. One of the biggest problems with the movie is that it tries to riff on The Wrath of Khan far, far too much.

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Oh, and on New Frontier, I read the initial mini-series and the next two full length books, but lost track of it after that and it looks a rather hard series to just jump into.
Others might disagree, but I'd say you've already read the best parts of it.
 
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