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Old 2016-04-27, 09:07 PM   #521
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I was going to challenge that earlier with Action Master Devastator but got distracted and wondered off.

Also, these aren't Headmasters. They're Titanmasters which is totally an entirely new gimmick and shush.
 
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Old 2016-04-27, 10:15 PM   #522
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Originally Posted by Clay View Post
This doesn't engage that last point, but why is it so important that new figures retain the same gimmick as the character had last time? Or, why are these guys so intrinsically attached to their sub-gimmick that changing it is baffling whereas hypothetical toys of scramble city characters that don't combine are just fine? To me it's the same as dismissing Powermaster Prime in 1988 because Optimus wasn't originally a powermaster. To me the idea of the characters is robust enough that headmastering, combining, or whatever in a particular toy doesn't really matter.

srs qstn
Oh, there's nothing wrong with making Hot Rod or Scourge or Doublecross or whoever Headmasters. In a vacuum, in isolation, it's fine. I'll probably even buy a few of them because some of them look cool.

The reason it annoys me is that they're doing that while not making toys of half the traditional Headmasters. Just like Combiner Wars, Titans Return is probably only going to be around for a year or so. So we're only going to get a limited amount of waves, with a limited amount of figures. And I think a line that's meant to celebrate the Headmaster gimmick should feature characters that are actually Headmasters first and foremost. I completely understand why they'd want to have an Optimus, a Soundwave, a Galvatron or a Megatron on the shelves along with them, but I think it's silly to remake less-important guys like Doublecross or Getaway or Triggerhappy as Headmasters at the same time as traditional Headmasters like Nightbeat or Apeface or Squeezeplay or Horri-Bull get shoved into the "heads only" category and others (so far, at least) are ignored entirely.

There are only seventeen G1 Headmasters (eighteen if anyone cares about the -ations enough to remember that Sunstreaker was one), and it would have been cool to have new bodies for all of them done up in a modern style with compatible heads and accessories. We're evidently not going to see that, for reasons I don't quite understand, and that's a shame.
 
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Old 2016-04-27, 10:24 PM   #523
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Originally Posted by Warcry View Post
There are only seventeen G1 Headmasters (eighteen if anyone cares about the -ations enough to remember that Sunstreaker was one)
Eighteen before Sunstreaker. Well, nineteen if you differentiate between Cerebros and Fort Max.
 
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Old 2016-04-27, 10:38 PM   #524
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Oh right, Arcee was a Headmaster. Forgot about her, but yeah, she deserves to be in there too. Even though odds are that she'd be at the end of the line and impossible to find just like the Generations toy was.
 
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Old 2016-04-28, 02:04 AM   #525
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The reason it annoys me is that they're doing that while not making toys of half the traditional Headmasters.
Yeah, but again, why is that gimmick so linked to that batch of characters? Is it the expectation that if they don't make the 1988 series of headmasters again with this bunch, they won't at all? Or that they'll remake those toys in a few years as pretenders or whatever throwback they're onto by then?

I mean they just made a Brainstorm headmaster a year or so ago, and now they're doing him again in a size class smaller to match all the others. It's not like they won't retread recently covered ground.

To me it's like saying that they were wasting a slot with the recent Rhinox because they already did Springer and Sandstorm and they should have made a new Broadside then to go with them.
 
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Old 2016-04-28, 12:10 PM   #526
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Plus, Getaway uses the Chromedome mould; Blurr is a retooled Brainstorm. At least some of these 'hanger-ons' are just there to milk the moulds (think CW Alpha Bravo).

I mean, we could potentially get a Fangry out of Weirdwolf (or maybe even Alpha Trion), Hot Rod could double as Arcee, Siren or Nightbeat and so on. We've had a lot of moulds so far with no confirmed re-tools - I'm inclined to wait a while before passing judgement.
 
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Old 2016-04-28, 04:17 PM   #527
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Yeah, but again, why is that gimmick so linked to that batch of characters?
It depends a lot on what gimmick we're talking about, at least for me. With Headmasters in particular, I think the gimmick is pretty important. Because going back to the 80s, we actually know a lot more about some of the Nebulans' personalities than we do the Transformers they're attached to. So it would be a shame to get a toy of Squeezeplay without Lokos, or Scorponok without Lord Zarak. I'd feel similar about most Pretenders, since most of them spent most of their time wearing their shells -- it'd be a shame if they made a new mold for Bomb-Burst or Octopunch or Longtooth and it was just their inner robot, and most Pretenders can't be streamlined as easily as Thunderwing was (since his shell already looked robotic and could transform).

On the other hand, I don't think you lose anything essential to the character by making Getaway or Triggerhappy and ditching their partners, because their partners were essentially ignored even in the fiction that was meant to showcase them. Of course, that's strictly a matter of taste and I don't think someone would be wrong to be annoyed that the current toys aren't a Powermaster or Targetmaster respectively (or to not care about gimmicks at all, as the case may be).

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Is it the expectation that if they don't make the 1988 series of headmasters again with this bunch, they won't at all?
That's a big part of it too, yeah. Before this year the only Headmaster who'd gotten a new mold release was Brainstorm. Hardhead and Nightbeat had gotten a redeco or two and Scorponok's name had been attached to a few similar characters in different universes, but after ten years' worth of G1-inspired figures it's gotten pretty clear that these guys aren't exactly Hasbro's top priority. If they can't even get their foot in the door when the entire line is dedicated to their gimmick, I can't see many of them putting in appearances any time soon. We may get toys of them eventually, but "eventually" might mean "2028", or even longer.

Also:

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I mean they just made a Brainstorm headmaster a year or so ago, and now they're doing him again in a size class smaller to match all the others. It's not like they won't retread recently covered ground.
That's the problem, though. They will retread recently covered ground, so in a few years when someone wants to throw in a token Headmaster character or two into that year's line they're just as likely to make another Brainstorm or Hardhead as they are to explore the characters that didn't get the new toy treatment in Titans Return.

The two Brainstorms also illustrate another niggle: that they felt obliged to "redo" the character in such a short time frame because the design style of the first one is so different and the gimmick isn't interchangeable. You saw the same thing happen with Combiner Wars, where the product was completely different from the FoC Combaticons that came out, what, a year and a half before?

So past precedent says that if they do revisit the Headmasters that they're not touching in Titans Return, they'll be visually distinct from this year's Headmasters and the gimmick (if it's there at all) won't work the same way, so the heads won't be interchangeable. And that's hardly the end of the world, but it would have been nice to have the whole set done in a similar visual style with compatible gimmickry. It doesn't make the ones we're getting bad, it just makes me pine a bit for what might have been.

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To me it's like saying that they were wasting a slot with the recent Rhinox because they already did Springer and Sandstorm and they should have made a new Broadside then to go with them.
A lot of people did grumble about that, actually, especially since Blitzwing came out at the same time. And I understand why: it would have been cool to have all the Triplechangers done in the same size class and style. Instead they've got those three, a puny Octane and a choice between a puny Astrotrain and one who's a Headmaster with 1987ish styling (and no Broadside), and people who'd like to display a full set of visually-similar modern Triplechangers can't do it because it doesn't exist.

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Plus, Getaway uses the Chromedome mould; Blurr is a retooled Brainstorm. At least some of these 'hanger-ons' are just there to milk the moulds (think CW Alpha Bravo).
Getaway in particular annoys me because Nightbeat and Siren both transform almost exactly like the new Chromedome mold and have a similar body layout. They could have made either (or both) of them just as easily as they made Getaway, but didn't.

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I mean, we could potentially get a Fangry out of Weirdwolf (or maybe even Alpha Trion), Hot Rod could double as Arcee, Siren or Nightbeat and so on. We've had a lot of moulds so far with no confirmed re-tools - I'm inclined to wait a while before passing judgement.
The thing is, people said the same stuff about Combiner Wars: that the two waves of G1 cars were just space-filling, that they'd definitely get around to doing all the G1 teams and not to worry. And we all know how that turned out: the Technobots got relegated to a half-assed box set and the beast teams were omitted entirely. I'd have more faith in Hasbro doing right by the lesser-known Headmasters if they hadn't just passed over the far more popular Predacons and Terrorcons.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Doublecross become Fangry -- just get the two heads to peg together into a single unit and you'd be most of the way there. But with Apeface, Nightbeat, Siren, Squeezeplay and Horri-Bull already getting a head-only release, I'd be very surprised to see any of them get a full figure in the line.
 
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Old 2016-04-29, 01:10 AM   #528
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On the other hand, I don't think you lose anything essential to the character by making Getaway or Triggerhappy and ditching their partners, because their partners were essentially ignored even in the fiction that was meant to showcase them. Of course, that's strictly a matter of taste and I don't think someone would be wrong to be annoyed that the current toys aren't a Powermaster or Targetmaster respectively (or to not care about gimmicks at all, as the case may be).
I think I understand better now, even if I still disagree. I just don't personally see new Generations figures as completely overriding previous stuff; I see it as purely additive. As such, I'm just not concerned with details getting fudged or rearranged with new iterations of old characters if the new stuff looks nice in its own right. But if you're wanting new figures to adhere more closely to the old G1 designs, I can see that being defensible as probably 80% of Classics 2006-2016 stays reasonably close to the mark.

The perfect examples for me are Cyclonus and Scourge. Cyclonus (2008) stays very close to the original design and even sneaks in a nod to the way the Targetmasters connected in the Headmasters cartoon. In contrast, Scourge (2010) is way different from the original design and isn't a Targetmaster like Cyclonus, but I don't care because it's awesome. I suppose that's the metric I use most of the time: if the new figure homage is neat in its own way, I don't really mind if it strays wildly.

As for the timing being important for getting the Headmaster Juniors redone, I think that there's less need to do them all at once than the combiner guys. The big thing about Combiner Wars and needing everything to revolve around the concept for a year or so is that, by default, the line works by having all the figures be cross-compatible with one another. That idea needs many figures available all at the same time (the original line had what, four scramble city teams shipping at any one time for how many years?). With this Titan Wars thing, I don't see the ubiquity of the gimmick as being quite so critical. Sure, universal head swapping is neat, but the figures are at least self-contained. Inasmuch, I can see the 1988 Headmasters done later in a follow up line as much more plausible than the combining teams.

I still say they'll use whatever the third line ends up being called to do lots and lots beast combiners, though.

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It doesn't make the ones we're getting bad, it just makes me pine a bit for what might have been.
Too soon to pine. We got Betatron before two different Computrons, after all.
 

Last edited by Clay; 2016-04-29 at 01:28 AM.
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Old 2016-04-29, 09:29 AM   #529
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Yeah but the big elephant in the room comes in the form of recognizable characters.

Combiner Wars had Optimus, Megatron, Magnus, Hot Rod, Prowl et all in one form or another, and not all of them were combiners.

Titan Returns' gimmick focuses on headmasters yes, but if they follow that to the letter for the characters that were HM, they'd do away with their favourite, crowd-recoginzable A-listers.

From what I've seen so far the HM gimmick does not seem to hinder any of the figures and does offer interchangeability, although let's be honest, besides trying it once for giggles, is anybody really going to display say, Galvatron with Sentinel Prime's head?
 
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Old 2016-04-29, 09:39 AM   #530
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Just so you all know, I'm keeping a list of everybody who's suggesting a new Fangry toy and if it happens I'm going to set you on fire.
 
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Old 2016-04-29, 04:09 PM   #531
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Quote:
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I think I understand better now, even if I still disagree. I just don't personally see new Generations figures as completely overriding previous stuff; I see it as purely additive. As such, I'm just not concerned with details getting fudged or rearranged with new iterations of old characters if the new stuff looks nice in its own right. But if you're wanting new figures to adhere more closely to the old G1 designs, I can see that being defensible as probably 80% of Classics 2006-2016 stays reasonably close to the mark.
It's not about adhering to the G1 designs per se, but I do see the toys as representations of a character first and foremost. So I like it when the toys keep whatever features I associate with whatever version of the character I best remember, whether that be based on the fiction, the toys I had as a kid or something else entirely.

With some that means I prefer the original designs, and with others something different. I'll always think of Sideswipe as a black car first and foremost and the G2 versions of Skydive, Air Raid and Slingshot are the default for me as well. But for guys like Chromedome, Whirl, Swerve or Tailgate the modern IDW versions are what come to mind first. And I'll always feel a bit sad that no new Jazz, Grimlock, Bumblebee or Starscream ever gets to be a Pretender. But for most of the Headmasters, it's the G1 bodies and gimmicks that I remember best, so that's what I'd like to get toys of.

Obviously it'd be impossible to make a toyline that satisfies me completely unless I was the one in charge of it, and that's fine. I've actually got quite a few figures that I enjoy a lot even though I don't really agree with the "philosophy" behind them, like Universe Onslaught and Generations Skullgrin. Doesn't stop me from wanting to see the characters done the way I would do them, though.

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The perfect examples for me are Cyclonus and Scourge. Cyclonus (2008) stays very close to the original design and even sneaks in a nod to the way the Targetmasters connected in the Headmasters cartoon. In contrast, Scourge (2010) is way different from the original design and isn't a Targetmaster like Cyclonus, but I don't care because it's awesome. I suppose that's the metric I use most of the time: if the new figure homage is neat in its own way, I don't really mind if it strays wildly.
I'm actually a pretty big fan of that Scourge myself. Though that's probably because I think the original Scourge was butt-ugly. I do kinda wish he'd come with Fracas, though.

Also, with guys like Scourge I think it's a bit easier for me to get on board with different interpretations because I know it's not the only modern toy they're ever going to get. If I don't like the one that's out this year, I know that there's going to be another in a few years.

Guys from 1987 and on get a lot less attention from Hasbro (well, before this year anyway), and if the odds of them getting a new toy to begin with aren't great, the odds of them getting redone are even slimmer. So I'd definitely prefer if the toys they did get were a "definitive" version of them, like a lot of this year's Headmasters or the Scoop from a few years' back, rather than reimagined.

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Inasmuch, I can see the 1988 Headmasters done later in a follow up line as much more plausible than the combining teams.
I really don't think so. The combiner teams (both as characters and a gimmick) are a lot more popular than Headmasters, in general, and I think that raises the odds of seeing more teams in the future. They probably won't be CW-compatible, and that'll suck, but eventually Hasbro's going to make a Predaking or a Piranacon or whatever because the fans keep demanding it. Will the second-wave Headmasters have the same demand? We'll see, but I'd be surprised.

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Too soon to pine. We got Betatron before two different Computrons, after all.
A last-minute box set of half-assed redecos doesn't exactly give me much hope, to be honest. They could probably get out a Nightbeat, Siren and Fangry that way, but it's not like there's another Headmaster crab or ape/jet triplechanger they can just slap a new coat of paint on.

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Titan Returns' gimmick focuses on headmasters yes, but if they follow that to the letter for the characters that were HM, they'd do away with their favourite, crowd-recoginzable A-listers.
Sure, and I don't begrudge them for getting in an Optimus, Megatron, Soundwave or the like. It makes sense to always have some recognizable faces available. But Sentinel Prime, Astrotrain, Alpha Trion, Scourge, Blurr, Doublecross, Getaway, Triggerhappy? Those are hardly A-listers. Some of them are recognizable supporting cast and others are utter nobodies. It's weird to fit in guys like Blurr and Scourge over equally well known Headmasters like Nightbeat and Arcee, but it's flat-out silly to make a Headmaster Triggerhappy ahead of them.

And that's not to say that Triggerhappy doesn't look cool, because he does. But him being in the line is utterly random.

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From what I've seen so far the HM gimmick does not seem to hinder any of the figures and does offer interchangeability, although let's be honest, besides trying it once for giggles, is anybody really going to display say, Galvatron with Sentinel Prime's head?
Display? Probably not. But it'll be fun to play around with!

Universally interchangeable heads is also a great feature for customizers.

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Just so you all know, I'm keeping a list of everybody who's suggesting a new Fangry toy and if it happens I'm going to set you on fire.
But don't you want to be able to replicate that scene where Grimlock beat the piss out of him while all the other 'Cons stood around and laughed?
 
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Old 2016-04-30, 12:27 PM   #532
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But don't you want to be able to replicate that scene where Grimlock beat the piss out of him while all the other 'Cons stood around and laughed?
I think people misunderstand my contempt for Fangry. It's not wacky comedy "lolz look how much I hate him, I will buy his toy and do hilarious things to it" hatred.

I legitimately want everything about him erased from existence.
 
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Old 2016-04-30, 01:08 PM   #533
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Titan Returns Hot Rod design plan

Disappointingly non-IDW.

We had no assurances, but after Ultra Magnus, Skids, Brainstorm, the newer Rewind [and arguably Chromedome] I had hopes that he'd be IDW based.

It appears that he's moulded a tad on the generic side to accommodate remoulds to other car bots?

Looking forward to this line. Think we'll have him before December?
 
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Old 2016-04-30, 02:24 PM   #534
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I wouldn't expect him before December, as that TFormers link I posted earlier said these were the 2017 assortment. Obvs could be wrong, but shrug.

From a general logistical viewpoint, I'd imagine making everything across the range a Headmaster simplifies the design work significantly.

No faffing about with flaps, cavities, hinges etc in order to hide the head. It just detaches and they can get on with things. And fewer parts to assemble for the main toy, as opposed to if the partner was a Targetmaster.
 
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Old 2016-04-30, 03:17 PM   #535
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It both simplifies and restricts things at the same time.

Unless I'm mistaken, all figures so far have a cockpit that the headmaster sits in in vehicle mode, so while they are doing away with head cavities/panels etc, all vehicle modes must have an equally sized cockpit regardless of whether they are a jet, tank, car, dragon etc.

Funny thing is that Chromedome [and Getaway] get away [no pun intended] with this by gutting their combiner wars port out.
 
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Old 2016-04-30, 03:57 PM   #536
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Originally Posted by Brendocon 2.0 View Post
I think people misunderstand my contempt for Fangry. It's not wacky comedy "lolz look how much I hate him, I will buy his toy and do hilarious things to it" hatred.

I legitimately want everything about him erased from existence.
What, did he kill Flywheels or something?

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Disappointingly non-IDW.
I don't know if MTMTE Rodimus's design would work as a Headmaster. The head spikes would get lost in translation and I'm not sure there's room in that torso for a cockpit.
 
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Old 2016-05-01, 01:14 AM   #537
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Will the second-wave Headmasters have the same demand? We'll see, but I'd be surprised.
I wouldn't, at least not at this point. If anyone had said in 2006 after Classics was a success that, in a few years, we'd get a follow up line with new versions of all the basic 1987 Headmasters and another two-foot tall Fortress Maximus, we'd call them crazy. But the driving force behind the sub-line for the past decade seems to be to just make every G1 character over again, with repeats and sequence breaking along the way. We got a new Scoop before a new Chromedome, after all.

Again, the line hasn't even been released yet, so don't be so quick to dismiss what they will or won't do for the whole series.
 
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Old 2016-05-08, 04:45 AM   #538
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http://news.tfw2005.com/2016/03/24/h...eorders-311872

Hasbro release of deluxe class Groove, y'all.
So are BBTS and TFSource not getting this toy?
 
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Old 2016-05-08, 11:22 AM   #539
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They probably will, did they get Slingshot and Wildrider last year? Can't remember.

Give me a shout if you want me to get one for you from a UK retailer, but the added costs of shipping to me and then shipping to you + customs may make this more trouble than it's worth.
 
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Old 2016-05-10, 10:40 PM   #540
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Never been this tempted to get cases before, despite having representations of 6/8 in hand or on order. The aesthetic is very appealing.

http://news.tfw2005.com/2016/05/10/t...-photos-315315


 
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