JSA #42 vs. the Bible...

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Hound
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JSA #42 vs. the Bible...

Post by Hound »

...so, I'm at work on break reading JSA #42 and Dr. Fate visits Gemworld and talks to this alien inventor guy (no name given). During the course of the conversation the inventor guy mentions the spark that created our universe was the big bang.

Moses? Bah. I'm going with David Goyer and Geoff Johns.

Prove this work of fiction is less credible than the Bible...
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Blaster_86

Bravo....

Post by Blaster_86 »

You just started the fire of a flame war.
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Post by LigerZero »

.......ok.......I'm going to call the Fire Department now.
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Re: Bravo....

Post by MegaConvoy »

Originally posted by Blaster_86
You just started the fire of a flame war.


Yes he did. *goes with LigerZero and gets a bucket of water to get ready to put the fire out before it starts*
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Hound
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Re: Bravo....

Post by Hound »

Originally posted by Blaster_86
You just started the fire of a flame war.

Doubt it. Most people know how to take a joke. But if someone wants to get offended then go ahead. They have to prove to me that the universe was created in 7 days. They have a book, I've got a comic that says it was the big bang.:p
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Post by Roy Fokker »

I posted in here before it was closed. :p
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Re: JSA #42 vs. the Bible...

Post by nmathew »

Originally posted by Hound

Prove this work of fiction is less credible than the Bible...




Credible: Capable of being believed; plausible.


You and I are two people. You admit the comic is a piece of fiction. I agree. You say the Bible is a work of fiction. I disagree.

One person believes in the Bible, which is one more than the comic... It is "believed" more.
:D

I see no fires, but just incase, I should put on my shades. :cool:
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Post by Denyer »

Originally posted by nmathew
One person believes in the Bible, which is one more than the comic... It is "believed" more.
Interesting logic... so, you're approaching via the Pratchettian Heresy?

Maybe I should start canvassing for Jedis...
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Post by nmathew »

I figured that would be the next response.

The next step then.

Once again:

Credible: Capable of being believed; plausible.


The creators of the comic claim it to be a work of fiction. Hound agrees. They do not press it forth as anything else. The Bible has been used as a Book of God for thousands of years. It has been presented as such, and a majority of people on the planet believe it has at least a little merit to that claim. It seems to me that it is slightly more capable of being believed...

I would say that makes it a little more credible.
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Post by Denyer »

D'you think I needed a wink in my last post? Although the point is still valid, I reckon... I fail to see how the fact something is old outside of living memory and practically any context makes it any more valid...
Originally posted by nmathew
The Bible has been used as a Book of God for thousands of years. It has been presented as such, and a majority of people on the planet believe it has at least a little merit to that claim.
The first question is always: who presented it as such, and why? There's always an agenda... given that so few contemporary religious representatives evoke trust, why did any ever?

Actually, I don't think it's ever crossed my mind (even as a kid) that the Bible is truth -- maybe it was because The Hungry Caterpillar had illustrations? And that isn't actually as facetious a comment as it may sound... I think that the more stories people hear, the more they question other writings; especially those with more evidence of being moralistic allegory than fact.

Does a religious text need to be able to distance itself from a living author (or continuity of authors) to maintain credibility?

It's quite interesting to think of far-subsequent generations unearthing different texts and taking them as instructional...
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Post by Denyer »

Further to this... (separate point, hence separate post)

The Old Testament represents collected and edited texts to some extent superceding previous "Christian" writings, very little of which survives in any form.

The New Testament represents a more obvious editing process, excluding writings felt to clash with the main body of the text as chronology. Some of these other writings are available, whilst there is evidence of others being politically suppressed or destroyed. There are changes in proscription from the Old Testament.

The revelations of Julian of Norwich (an English anchoress) represent an obvious editing process, developing ideas present in "Christian" theology, before early popes developed a popular perception of Hell as a metaphysical realm.

I consider the last the most 'credible', as it actually makes sense to me. However, its world readership is limited because it carries no 'official' stamp of approval. Since that approval was conducted by people, almost all of whom are now dead, your judgment is rendered far more by empirical acceptance than actual faith.

Which seems rather a dubious method of assessing whether something merits belief. Also... a 'majority' of people on the planet? Not a chance, looking at population and census statistics. Why not refer to a majority of people you consider to matter, as is the implicit statement?
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Post by nmathew »

And I took this as a fun joke...


OK, I said nothing about readership.

"Since that approval was conducted by people, almost all of whom are now dead, your judgment is rendered far more by empirical acceptance than actual faith."

Nope. My approval was conducted by the number of people who felt that the book was "credible" enough to have some merit within their belief stucture. The question had to do with credibility.

"Which seems rather a dubious method of assessing whether something merits belief. Also... a 'majority' of people on the planet? Not a chance, looking at population and census statistics. Why not refer to a majority of people you consider to matter, as is the implicit statement?"

I'm taking offense to that last line. Denyer, the numbers I took are from a website called religioustolerance. The link I looked at is listed below.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

It's pretty darn clear that Christainity and Islam make up over 50%. Islam has a different holy text, but they do revere Old Testament prophets.

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

has similar numbers


I found Hound's challenge interesting. I thought to myself, realized that the answer was not obvious. I tried to figure out why it was not. So I looked up the exact meaning of credible, found a means of showing that the Bible is more credible than the comic on several fronts, and you decieded to attack me by stating that consider a large portion of the earth's population as not mattering. Not once did you show how the comic could be equally as credible as the Bible.

This is no longer fun, and I will stop posting in this thread.
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Post by Cliffjumper »

As a slightly light-hearted ten penny piece in the change pot of debate, I must say as a child I tought the Bible was a fairy tale, but did briefly think Transformers [well, I never went to America to check otherwise], He-Man and thought that part of NATO was called Action Force.
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Post by Sheba »

moralistic allegory--heh if it was, it had to come from somewhere.

Nobody is claiming that the comic in question contains rules for living that if followed by individuals will accomplish this and that.

Whereas, the Ten Commandments in the Bible are not only recognized as being good to follow (at the very least, the ones about murder, stealing, adultery, honoring your parents, and coveting) in order to get along better with your fellow man.

The Bible. Always mimicked, never duplicated (by other religions that have had a chance to see it or parts of it).
"This appears to be a copy of Final Fantasy, which is a step up from a copy of Pearl Jam"-Ed the Sock, on Fromage 2002, about one of Creed's videos--"Bullets".
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Post by Hound »

An actual discussion and none of you have actually gotten the point. The Big Bang, this comic tells me that the universe was created from the big bang. The bible says god created the universe in 7 days. I find JSA #42 to be more credible than the bible where this is concerned. Afterall it presents just as much evidence. Perhaps I should have worded the topic, "JSA #42 vs. creationism"...
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Post by Roy Fokker »

Originally posted by Hound
An actual discussion and none of you have actually gotten the point. The Big Bang, this comic tells me that the universe was created from the big bang. The bible says god created the universe in 7 days. I find JSA #42 to be more credible than the bible where this is concerned. Afterall it presents just as much evidence. Perhaps I should have worded the topic, "JSA #42 vs. creationism"...


I know for a fact that some people, who posted to this thread, understood what you were saying. (I can't vouch for everyone)

The "big bang" theory didn't come from a comic. Maybe the comic used it but it's a well known scientific theory.

With all the advances in science there are still objects and events beyond its reasoning. For instance.. "consciousness" a scientist can't explain the difference between a conscious brain and an unconscious brain.

What about emotional pain? What causes your chest to hurt when someone you care about dies or your heart is broken?

The way I see it, the Bible was written for people of its time. It wasn't explained on todays standards. The Earth was made in 7 days. Does that mean *poof* it appeared or maybe the big bang was caused.
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Post by Denyer »

Originally posted by nmathew
And I took this as a fun joke...
It's a light-hearted topic... that doesn't render it without purpose.
Originally posted by nmathew
I'm taking offense to that last line. Deyner, the numbers I took are from a website called religioustolerance. The link I looked at is listed below.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/worldrel.htm

It's pretty darn clear that Christainity and Islam make up over 50%. Islam has a different holy text, but they do revere Old Testament prophets.
You'll note the disputed figures, as noted even by the site, bringing said calculation to below 50%. The population swell in China is also fairly crucial.

Next, it's worth looking at the number of people (certainly in the UK) who put 'Christian' down on census forms by default, and the fact that spiritualist interpretations account for a stronger Christian following than Biblical literalist creationism. I think I read the topic as Hound intended.

It does rather depend on your choice of guesstimated stats and interpretation of 'credible'... saying that all Muslims regard the Bible as a work as credible I would regard as much too far an extension, given that it is the Old Testament which is directly referenced, not the Bible as a whole work.

Taking this into account, I'd put the figure at somewhere around 25%.
Originally posted by Sheba
moralistic allegory--heh if it was, it had to come from somewhere.
Certainly. Such a labyrinthian means of social control was the product of many minds, over much time.
Originally posted by Sheba
The Bible. Always mimicked, never duplicated (by other religions that have had a chance to see it or parts of it).
The Bible. Always plagiarising, rarely original. Preserved as a political vehicle through force. [/Deayton]

Hound, what does JSA stand for?
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Post by Roy Fokker »

Originally posted by Stuart Denyer

Taking this into account, I'd put the figure at somewhere around 25%.

HAHAHAHAH
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Post by Denyer »

Generous, I know...
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Post by Roy Fokker »

Well.. I just got done playing CS. Sometimes when someone dies and another person goes HAHAHAHAHAH. Don't you just hate that? :D
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