Headmasters...

Post by **Hound** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:02 pm

There are, to this point, two takes on the Headmaster concept.

There's Headmasters being seperate beings from the Transformer, sort of sharing a consciousness concept.

Then there's the Headmaster being the only consciousness and the Transformer just being a big robot they can control.

So which concept do you prefer?

Me personally I the seperate beings concept. I like the idea of there being two minds at work and that being why the technology was developed. It makes sense that that would give Transformers an advantage in battle.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:13 pm

I like the "Western" idea... execution was a little botched - both continuities came up with fairly poor reasons for them actually binary-bonding with the Nebulans, and the habit of comedy mismatches (Highbrow/Gort, Mindwipe/Vorath - even Siren/Quig or Scorponok/Zarak) which would make the HM very unreliable. "Rebirth" takes the whole mess further (TFs crippled whenever the Nebulans run off to do whatever), but that's poor scripting rather than a problem with the concept...

Nothing wrong with the Japanese take, which makes sense in lots of ways... I just never found it particularly interesting as a concept. They're small, so build themselves bigger bodies. Big woo, y'know?

slartibartfast · Post by **slartibartfast** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:11 am

From where I'm standing, for the Headmasters to have any facsimile of an advantage over yer standard transformers they'd have to have a single conciousness. They can't feasably look in two different directions at once, and if they had to agree before they did anything they'd all be foaming at the mouth by now. A nice Freudian-unconcious-fusion-thing would let them have combined memories, more experience, and more cultural and genetic heritage to draw reflexes from, which could give them an edge in battle and give a valid reason for lumping totally different personalities together.

I have to admit though that I'm clutching at straws. The only good reason I can think of for the headmasters would be to see Highbrow punch himself in the face. I suppose.

Post by **Hound** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:19 am

Originally posted by slartibartfast
They can't feasably look in two different directions at once,

Why not?

That's like saying two people operating a tank can't be effective unless they share the same mind. They cooperate and are more effective for there being two of them.

It's like in that Mario Kart game where one person drives while the other throws ****. If you're a good match you can be unbeatable.

slartibartfast · Post by **slartibartfast** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:24 am

Ah, I meant when the two are combined in robot mode. I've got nothing against the idea of cross-eyed transformers, but it doesn't mean one eye can migrate across his head.

Once both the transformer and the head are separated, it'd stand to reason that there'd be some kind of un-meshing procedure of their conscious minds, allowing them to operate autonomously. They'd hardly even need a residuary telepathic link since they'd know each other inside out. I was kind of assuming that binary bonding was along the lines of setting up an interface. They just sort of unplug it when they transform.

To be honest, I think I'm just being a bit picky about where we set the bar between one consciousness and two. For me, two minds means there's going to be a debate and ego issues over every single action the guy's thinking of doing, which isn't really an advantage. Both minds are in there, but I reckon it needs to be on an unconscious level for it to work in robot mode.

Tramp · Post by **Tramp** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 4:08 am

Based upon how Dreamwave handled it, and Marvel before them, The robot's consciousness remains present even when the two are separated, but in the background. When combined, it is the robot's mind which is usually dominant with the humanoid enhancing its mental processing capabilities in the background in a symbiotic partnership with the partners choosing the level of cognitive input and control each has at any given time. Thus, while smooth partnerships do greatly enhance performance, conflicting minds can seriously impede each other's performance.

Post by **Warcry** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:21 am

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Nothing wrong with the Japanese take, which makes sense in lots of ways... I just never found it particularly interesting as a concept. They're small, so build themselves bigger bodies. Big woo, y'know?

To be honest, I could see the Japanese-type Headmasters evolving as a natural outgrowth of Micromaster technology. Downsizing to conserve fuel is all well and good, but an eight foot tall Autobot isn't going to be much of a threat to a thirty foot tall Decepticon on the battlefield. But if that eight foot tall Autobot could take control of a larger body when he needs the extra punch, all of a sudden Micromasters stop being expendable dwarves and become some of the most useful members of any TF unit.

Well, it makes more sense than letting your head get hollowed out so that a funny-looking green-skinned guy can drive you around like some sort of glorified mech, anyway... :\

Originally posted by Hound
That's like saying two people operating a tank can't be effective unless they share the same mind. They cooperate and are more effective for there being two of them.

That's true, but members of a tank crew have a clear-cut division of labour. One guy drives, another aims the main turret, another loads shells into the magazine, etc. But in a Headmaster team both partners have equal control of all parts of the TF's body. That can be a serious problem in situations demanding snap action (imagine that someone fired a missile at Brainstorm. The Autobot instinctively tries to dodge in one direction, but Arcana tries to dodge in the other. The net effect is that Brainstorm doesn't go anywhere and he gets fragged).

And even more crucially, a tank crew has a commanding officer who has the last word on any tactical decision. Most Headmaster teams don't, so when the two components seriously disagree on a course of action, one can't override the other except by sheer force of will (like Fort Max did to Spike early on in The Last Autobot). Not a good thing to have in a crisis situation.

Actually, I think Targetmaster partnerships are generally a lot more successful for exactly those reasons. For example, Singe and Hairsplitter both know that Spinister is their boss, so they do what he says. They also have a well-defined role: they shoot things, nothing more or less.

Tramp · Post by **Tramp** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 5:46 am

Well, that's just it, they don't have equal control over all parts. As I mentioned before, when combined, it is the robot's mind which has control, the partner's mind simply enhances his ablilites. Bad team-ups do definately create problems, but smooth team-ups greatly enhance performance. Brainstorm and Arcana are an excellent example of such a team.

Post by **Warcry** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:14 am

Originally posted by Tramp
As I mentioned before, when combined, it is the robot's mind which has control, the partner's mind simply enhances his ablilites.

That might be applicable to the US cartoon Headmasters (the whole process was very poorly sketched out there), but it's blatantly false when you look at the more-developed Marvel comic ones.

Scorponok, probably the most prominent Headmaster in the series, was frequently dominated by Lord Zarak. We see that when Prime surrenders to the 'Cons in US #71, and it's spelled out for you in US #75. "Don't you see? I am Scorponok in appearance alone! At heart I'm just Lord Zarak -- a man! A weak, flawed man. This - this isn't my war."

But at the same time, Scorponok was able to exert enough influence that Zarak couldn't stop him from endangering his daughter in the miniseries. And there are a few moments throughout the comic run (slagging Ratbat for no reason is a great example) that are just pure Scorpy. A lot of the time you just can't tell who's taking the lead in the partnership, because Scorpy and LZ work together very well compared to most other HM partnerships...but in stressful situations the partnership falls apart and one or the other always dominates.

Fort Max and Spike were even more dysfunctional; they never cooperated and both frequently subverted the other's free will to get what they wanted. Fort Max had no interest in rescuing Buster...until he joined with Spike, at which point it was Priority One for all the Autobots under his command because Spike was able to take control of their body. And later on, when Fort Max wanted to smack around Galvatron, he did exactly the same thing to Spike. And when they fought G2 Megatron? Same deal.

So, no, the robots don't stay in control of their bodies. Nor do the human/Nebulan partners have control. If the partners aren't willing to cooperate (and, frankly, only Brainstorm, Hardhead and Nightbeat seem to get along with their Nebulans enough to pull that off all the time), control falls to whoever is able to seize it at any particular moment. Not a very good system, IMO.

Tramp · Post by **Tramp** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:29 am

Originally posted by Warcry
That might be applicable to the US cartoon Headmasters (the whole process was very poorly sketched out there), but it's blatantly false when you look at the more-developed Marvel comic ones.

Scorponok, probably the most prominent Headmaster in the series, was frequently dominated by Lord Zarak. We see that when Prime surrenders to the 'Cons in US #71, and it's spelled out for you in US #75. "Don't you see? I am Scorponok in appearance alone! At heart I'm just Lord Zarak -- a man! A weak, flawed man. This - this isn't my war."

But at the same time, Scorponok was able to exert enough influence that Zarak couldn't stop him from endangering his daughter in the miniseries. And there are a few moments throughout the comic run (slagging Ratbat for no reason is a great example) that are just pure Scorpy. A lot of the time you just can't tell who's taking the lead in the partnership, because Scorpy and LZ work together very well compared to most other HM partnerships...but in stressful situations the partnership falls apart and one or the other always dominates.

Fort Max and Spike were even more dysfunctional; they never cooperated and both frequently subverted the other's free will to get what they wanted. Fort Max had no interest in rescuing Buster...until he joined with Spike, at which point it was Priority One for all the Autobots under his command because Spike was able to take control of their body. And later on, when Fort Max wanted to smack around Galvatron, he did exactly the same thing to Spike. And when they fought G2 Megatron? Same deal.

So, no, the robots don't stay in control of their bodies. Nor do the human/Nebulan partners have control. If the partners aren't willing to cooperate (and, frankly, only Brainstorm, Hardhead and Nightbeat seem to get along with their Nebulans enough to pull that off all the time), control falls to whoever is able to seize it at any particular moment. Not a very good system, IMO.

It was applicable in the comics too. As I mentioned in my first post, the level of control each partner has is chosen by the partners. It isn't set in stone. If the Humanoid needs more control in a given situation, the robot can scede controll, if less input is needed from the humanoid partner, the robot takes over and the humanoid's mind recedes back to a supporting role. For smooth partnerships, this works well, for conflicting partnerships, like Spike and Fort Max, or a number of Decepticon partnerships, it doesn't work out so well because each personality is vying for control rather than working together.

This is exactly what MtMtE #8 says on the matter on page 33:

The technology has had several unexpected sid effects. Although the original plan would have had the humanoid partner maintaining complete control of the body while interfacing with the robot's "latent" memories and abilities, the actual process resulted in a Headmaster partner and host robot bonding on a mental level. The robot's consciousness is actively present when the humanoid is disconnected from the body, as well as when it is connected, although the exact degree of its presence varies from case to case. control of the robot is generally maintained by the robot's mind, with the humanoid's enhancing its processing capabilities in the background.The partners can choose what level of cognitive input and control each of them has at any given time; smooth partnerships see greatly enhanced performance as a result of this, while conflicting minds can impede each other's fuctioning. It is not known what would occure if a Headmaster partner were destroyed or what effect the destruction of the original head would have.

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 6:50 am

Originally posted by Warcry
That can be a serious problem in situations demanding snap action (imagine that someone fired a missile at Brainstorm. The Autobot instinctively tries to dodge in one direction, but Arcana tries to dodge in the other. The net effect is that Brainstorm doesn't go anywhere and he gets fragged).

That's pretty much what killed Highbrow isn't it?

The Headmaster thing is really the first gimmick concept none of the comic/cartoon writters really have a clue on how to dramatise- though it Japanese probably come best to pulling it off.

Tetsuro · Post by **Tetsuro** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:10 am

Well Scorpy's about the only one who we're occasionally reminded "Hey, these guys have like little people for heads" even towards the end of the series. Everyone else's headmaster partners got slowly phased out in the comics to the point they (or the robot components, rather) were just a bunch of TFs.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 10:42 am

Aye, it is a bit of a pain that the rest of them just stop acting like that - they stuff a lot of them in the background, but you'd think, I dunno, Prime would poll Getaway et al on his PM problems or Vorath would have something to say about Zarak... Good grounds for fanfic, I suppose. And is Recoil still in his hamster cage next to Long Island, or what?

Originally posted by Tramp
This is exactly what MtMtE #8 says on the matter on page 33:

Dreamwave More Than Meets the Eye #8 has nothing to do with Marvel Transformers #75. We can only draw concrete conclusions based on what we see in each given continuity; the rest is mere speculation, and should be indicated as such. The cartoon and (original) comic vary wildly in the effects and implementation of the process; DW has no more bearing on, say, "Brothers in Armour" than "The Rebirth" or "Four Warriors" has.

Post by **Hound** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:47 pm

Originally posted by Warcry
That's true, but members of a tank crew have a clear-cut division of labour. One guy drives, another aims the main turret, another loads shells into the magazine, etc.

Ideally that's how it would work though. There's got to be some incentive for the two to work together as they're both likely to feel pain if they get fragged.

I'm not saying that I prefer the characters and personalities we see in the US/UK comic or the cartoon necessarily. Like there wouldn't be young socialites deciding it's a good idea that they bond with sentient war machines if I had anything to do with it.

As said by Cliffy it's not been executed particularly well as of yet but it could be and it would probably be more interesting than the alternative.

I don't see how TFs becoming small to conserve fuel but then building large bodies for them to control that require that extra fuel to operate makes any sense.

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:49 pm

And I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess that the IDW Headmasters will be comprised of "human being in control of robot body".

SPOILER! (select to read)
unless they've gone all out and cloned Sunstreaker's conciousness into all of the bodies...

[EDIT - crossposted with Hound]

Did they downsize in the Japanese series, though? IIRC, the flashback eps showed them looking much like that anyway. Which kinda makes me think it's just a case of they made their vehicles transform so they could combine with it.

Sort of the reverse principle of Prime's trailer. Ish. Or Ultra Magnus' trailer... though that brings us to the whole "is he just a white Prime wearing armour" debate... where the only answer is "only in the DW continuity".

To be fair, though, the Japanese did also include a variation on the other take in Masterforce. What with the humans being in control of the robots completely. And with their mind slowly imprinting on the TF so that when they went their seperate ways at the end of the series, the Transformer could think for themselves (presumably their personality was a copy of the human's). Similar route with the Godmasters, too.

Same notion to Prime's fusion with Hi-Q, I guess.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:00 pm

Originally posted by Hound
As said by Cliffy it's not been executed particularly well as of yet but it could be and it would probably be more interesting than the alternative.

I do think the 1980s stuff had potential - four of the five Autobot Headmasters (counting Galen instead of Spike - who in the comic was the best argument ever against the process) were respectable matches on paper, I just don't really see what some of the Nebulans added to the TFS... all that stuff in the mini where they're suddenly pasting the 'Cons made no sense to me... How have a bunch of people suddenly made these hugely advanced sentient robots so much better than this, and so on...

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:04 pm

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
all that stuff in the mini where they're suddenly pasting the 'Cons made no sense to me...

Yes, because the whole "here, having my head and his gun is a guarantee the other twenty heavily armed members of my crew won't be a problem" plot was faultless upto that point...

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:10 pm

Originally posted by Halfshell
Yes, because the whole "here, having my head and his gun is a guarantee the other twenty heavily armed members of my crew won't be a problem" plot was faultless upto that point...

Well, if we're being pedantic, it was in trouble from the point where Fort Max set of on a pacifist bunk with a crew that included nutcases like Hardhead, Scattershot, Kup, Strafe, Afterburner, Hot Rod, Sureshot, Point Blank, Slapdash etc, etc, etc.

I mean, apart from Max and Highbrow, the rest of them were mentalists.

Post by **Hound** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:22 pm

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
I do think the 1980s stuff had potential - four of the five Autobot Headmasters (counting Galen instead of Spike - who in the comic was the best argument ever against the process) were respectable matches on paper, I just don't really see what some of the Nebulans added to the TFS... all that stuff in the mini where they're suddenly pasting the 'Cons made no sense to me... How have a bunch of people suddenly made these hugely advanced sentient robots so much better than this, and so on...

Well I'm thinking it works a little better if the Nebulans that end up binary bonding are soldiers already, or have some training as to how to fight a war.

Hmm, an elite squad of warriors with weird codenames like "Firebolt" that decide to bond with giant sentient robots to help fight a civil war. I think I've got an idea for the next GIJoe/TF crossover...

optimusskids · Post by **optimusskids** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:20 pm

Not to mention Repugnus

Talking about the two heads one personality thing

How does Doublecross function and even worse what about

Doubleheader who must have been named on a friday afternoon when noone in the creative department could give a dam.

First of all he only has one head as a robot and even in his shell he negates any advantage of having 2 heads by making one head deaf and the other blind. I fyou think through the info in his profile.