TFARCHIVE FORUMS

Throughout my time here, the one constant that I have seen on this board is that the fembots don't appear to be all that popular. Hell, look at the Junkion files. Reasons include that robots have no need of gender or sexual reproduction or yada-yada-yada. Well that's where this thread comes in, I want you big brains to come up with a valid reason for fembots to exist. Some reason that Primus (not the Quints), in his ever-vast widom would create fembots back when he created the first Transformers. Assuming of course that he created them back then, so for the sake of this exercise, let's do so.

Now, I'm not talking about Beast Wars and whatnot where organic tissue and robotics mix. I'm talking about the all-metal G1s and just to make it interesting, let's do it back in an ancient time frame, like War Within, before the TFs ever met an organic female species. So no cheap cop-outs like token female, appeal to girls, human feminist movements, males getting turned into females a la IDW Arcee, or whatnot.

So, go ahead, come up with a valid reason that Primus would create fembots. I'm curious to see what people come up with.

Biological or Reproductive? None whatsoever that I can see.

Practical/Realistic? The producers of the show wanted girls to give some human interest to the show, because humans just weren't doing it by themselves.

Canon? Haven't read "War Within", but here's an idea. Primus made femme bots to counter the natural natures of the original transformers. He decided the originals lacked something, say emotion, a nurturing spirit, or even just sort of a more peaceful attitude (Not that's that last one is particularly evident in the current fembots, but they've been through a lot.) To supply these "missing elements" of the transformer world, he created the fembots. Although, it must not have been a very critical imbalance, because he didn't seem to make very many.

Of course, the obvious rejoinder is, "Why didn't Primus just make the Transformers with all the elements they needed?" You might as well ask why he didn't make "all as one" to begin with, since that seems to be the end goal. Or why he provided the Transformers with the potential to rebel. Who knows? If you're into Japanese philosophy, you could say that the two aspects are so completely different that they could never be combined into one being, but then, Japanese culture is not necessarily Transformer culture.

Oh wait. Hang on, yeah it is.

Civ wrote:So, go ahead, come up with a valid reason that Primus would create fembots.

Because he was bored.

Comic Version: There are no male or female Transformers, it's just humans may view them as one or the other due to body shape, choice of English speaking voice and so on. Our terrancentric preconceptions are to blame.

TV Version: The Quints were trying to make a broad appeal line and basically introduced them for exactly the same reason as Subow brought them into the cartoon. Of course, being giant floating heads their understanding of these things was poor, hence all the fembots being either stupid, pink, useless or all three at once.

I believe this was on the minds of the folks behind Beast Wars. Once the bots were back on Cybertron they flatly suggested that the planet was in its far distant past a very different, less mechanical place. As retcons go it works and allows that femmes simply exist because of some preexisting conditions that predate Primus and which influenced both Primus and Cybertron.

Personally, I think the whole thing (the mystical tree and Primal's visions) looks like a set up for unknown nefarious reasons — possibly on the part of Vector Sigma (the same super computer that was perfectly willing to endanger the Earth to help refuel Cybertron in Rebirth). The original gold disk stolen by Megatron is one bit of evidence. It was somehow supposed to lead them to a planet rich in energon ... but it was from Voyager and the planet was Earth! What ... did Megs not have assess to a phone book or had Earth been tapped out by then? I was never really clear on if the time travel bit was an accident or not but it seemed very unlikely that it was (especially in light of the secret Easter Egg left thereon by the real Megatron, which Megs shows Ravage).

*sigh* Here we go again.:deadhorse:

My current journal from deviantART:

There seems to be a civil war erupting in the TF fandom regarding robot "sex". So I want to offer MY views on it, based on various sources, namely Simon Furman's Ultimate Guide (my bible for all stuff TF). No I am NOT forcing my views on you, just letting you know my position on this rather touchy subject.

First and foremost, The One created Unicron and Primus back when the universe was in its infancy. The two heralds thus went out and seeded the universe, meaning that all life is children of Primus and Unicron, including organic life. I guess they created out of whatever materials were available on each habitable planet. So humans are made in Primus' image, not the other way around. And if you noticed, almost all of the robotic life has facial features like ours, a physical body similar to ours, and hands with 4 fingers and an opposible thumb. And they are millions of years older than humans...go figure...we are made in Primus' image...

Also, there is an image of Prima (the first TF) being created and he looks a lot like a humanoid. I think they were all more humanoid at first, then developed technology to build themselves into bigger and better robotic forms. Humans are on their way to doing that, with bionic limbs and medical implants. Just wait...we will be a race of cyborgs in the future.

And NO, the Quintessons did not build the transformers...they only want everyone to believe that so that they can take over. (That is implied in canon).

So anyway...on to "sex" or more accurately reproduction. If we are created in Primus' image, than it would be safe to assume that the older life forms have some sort of reproductive components. If you look at 90% of the life on our planet alone, there is "sexual" reproduction. The only life forms that do NOT sexually reproduce are the lower primitive life forms. And we all know the transformers are far from primitive. I am not saying that they reproduce the same way as most organic life, I highly doubt that, but they do have "relations" to pass on components of their sparks. My guess is that the "female" would house the sparkling until a body could be created for it. Transformers are biological beings. And for those of you that don't know your terminology, biological means of or relating to biology or living organisms. Organic refers to living organisms which are carbon-based, such as Earth-based life.

And as a friend pointed out, if they didn't have relations, then why does Octane look at porn (in the episode Starscream's Ghost) or why do they even have girlfriends (the female Autobots in The Search for Alpha Trion)??? Answer me that, my friend... And who specifically said their interface components were like humans'?

But more importantly, why is this even an issue? This is all make believe. There IS NO right or wrong. I'm sure if you'd ask Simon Furman or some of the other writers, they probably don't have a definite answer, either.

There are ALWAYS going to be oppossing sides to this issue, but I don't understand why people seem to get all weird whenever someone suggests that beings other than organics have sex. Do they subconsciously have IRL issues with sex and sexuality? Do they think it's dirty? What???

I would just take a moment to opine that may be wise not to mix cartoon, different iterations of the cartoon (at least after Beast Wars), live action, comics and (shudder) kiss players when it comes to canon discussions.

For example: Marvel and the original cartoon are simply not compatible in a number of ways and they should nominally be considered separately on account of this. One thing Firebird mentioned is that the bots had always been transformers back as far as Prima — arguably a bigger to do for product image than gender issues — would miss the point that in the latter time travel G1 episode (the one with "A3") the ancient mechs are expressly shown as being incapable of transformation (their jaws just about drop when they see their time traveling modern counterparts perform the trick). Yet by War Dawn, which is later for being earlier, most had indeed become "transformers" (I say "most" because it is unclear if A3's non-transforming status is any different than his comic book counterpart's). Toss in the fact that the comics had no femmes until the adaptation of the movie (if I recall) and there is yet another point of incompatibility.

I suppose a complementary question to the debate about femmes is what purpose to things like "petrorabbits" or "turbofoxes" have? There were references to Iacon having a zoo too, for example. I suppose the nature of cybertronian 'animals' (or drones — whatever) might not be as sexy a discussions about femmes ... which is likely why they occur less frequently.

What I don't get is the need to have all the transformers continuities have the same origin. Seeing as how in the cartoon, primus wasn't even in the series, I don't get the need to recont it since the Five Faces of Darkness would make that bit of the recont irrelevant. sorry if that isn't worded right.

One reason could be that Primus felt that the bots were to masculinity and felt the need to soften the race somewhat.

I wonder what is going to happen if IDW goes with it's idea not to include Primus as the creator. http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Primus

Also would the All Spark in Animated and the Movies replace Primus? If so, why would the All Spark create female bots?

Reproduction is the most logical reason, particularly since that's why sexes exist in the first place. By definition, "male" is the sex which produces small, usually motile gametes which fertilize the female. "Female" is the sex which bears live young or produces eggs after being fertilized by the male. And, even though, they're "robotic", there are certain advantages to reproducing through some form of sexual means. The first and foremost being that procreation (sexual or asexual) does not require the massive amount of resources that constructing protoforms and imbuing them with a spark does.

Construction requires facilities in which to produce the components, tools for fabrication, stasis pods for containment and imbuement, a source of energy (the Matrix, massive amounts of Energon, etc.). If any of these are missing, then new beings couldn't be constructed. It's not very efficient. Procreation comes from the parent(s)' body, the parent(s)' own cells and genes. Everything that forms the offspring came from the parent(s). Thus, no need for massive amounts of resources. It's all autopoietic. Secondly, procreation is how genes are passed down. It's what establishes species. A machine built on an assembly line is not descended from the robots that build it. There's no genetic connection.

Third, As it stands, Science establishes that for something to be considered life, it is required to exhibit seven key life functions. One of them being procreation. The ability to create offspring through metabolic processes, passing on the genes from one generation to the next, as defined here:

• (1). Living things must have a program to make copies of themselves from generation to generation. This program would describe both the parts that make up the organisms and the processes that occur between the various parts. These processes are of course the metabolic reactions that take place in a living thing allowing it to function over time. In most living systems, the program of life is encoded in DNA.
  
  (2). Life adapts and evolves in step with external changes in the environment. This process is directly connected to life’s program through mutation and natural selection. This condition allows life-forms to be optimized for gradual changes in the environment.
  
  (3). Organisms tend to be complex, highly organized, and most importantly have compartmentalized structures. Chemicals found within their bodies are synthesized through metabolic processes into structures that have specific purposes. Cells and their various organelles are examples of such structures. Cells are also the basic functioning unit of life. In multi-cellular organisms, cells are often organized into organs to create higher levels of complexity and function.
  
  (4). Living things have the ability to take energy from their environment and change it from one form to another. This energy is usually used to facilitate their growth and reproduction. We call the process that allows for this facilitation metabolism.
  
  (5). Organisms have regeneration systems that replace parts of themselves that are subject to wear and tear. This regeneration can be partial or it can involve the complete replacement of the organism. Complete replacement is necessary because partial replacements cannot stop the unavoidable decline in the functioning state of the entire living system over time. In other words, all organisms degrade into a final non-functioning state we call death.
  
  (6). Living creatures respond to environmental stimuli through feedback mechanisms. Cues from the environment can cause organisms to react through behavior, metabolism, and physiological change. Further, responses to stimuli generally act to increase a creature’s chance for day-to-day survival.
  
  (7). Organisms are able to maintain numerous metabolic reactions even in a single instance in time. Living things also keep each of these reactions separated from each other.

—
Origin and Definition of life

Transformers have been shown in canon to meet each and every one of these criteria, some more explicitly than others.

Forth, as Firebird mentioned, Transformers are very complex organisms. As such, asexual reproduction isn't very practical because it doesn't allow for the genetic diversity required to protect the species as a whole against diseases and other environmental threats.

Fifth, Transformers, according to many canon sources do have a form of DNA (simon Furman calls it CNA—CyberNucleic Acid as opposed to Deoroxyrhiboneucleic Acid), and their bodies are composed of self-replicating nano-machine cells which replicate through cellular division (a form of reproduction in and of itself at the cellular level). Add to that, sexes, and you have all of the ingredients for some form of sexual reproduction.

Now, the idea of having just the spark born through interfacing is a common fan concept, but it has its flaws, first among them being the above mentioned requirement for outside resources. Another being that any "offspring" wouldn't need to be created as babies (which there are canon examples of). Babies are born small and helpless because they grow physically within their mother (or witnin an egg laid by the mother). A constructed body could be built at full size and full development, as is the case with the Stunticons, Aerialbots, and other confirmed constructed Transformers.

A much more realistic process would be through the union of specialized reproductive nanites produced by the male and female within their respective reproductive systems, which merge within the female's reproductive chamber after interfacing, and physically grows through cellular division over a period of time. This requires no outside resources except a source of nourishment. No tools, no stasis pods, no factories. These specialized nano-machines would contain a cocktail of each parent's genes as well as a fragment of their respective sparks, which then merge and begin to grow and develop into a new being.


Given that in Marvel's G1/G2 comics (where there were indeed no females, and the Transformers were asexual in nature), Transformers could reproduce through budding, which is indeed a process of cellular division. No construction was necessary. In continuities where Transformers are divided into two distinct sexes, Reproduction through cellular division is still ideal, this time though, through the union of nano-machine gametes which then divide and replicate within the female, growing into a new life similar to organic life forms.

Some continuities already hint at this. the Japanese manga version of Victory shows the Decepticons as being married and having children in issue #10. The children's story, The Story of Wheelie, the Wild Boy of Quintesson establishes that Wheelie had a mother and father who died in the crash that left him stranded on Quintessa. The Lithonians (another Transformer species) are also shown to have families; of having children. Beast Wars established a familial relationship between Rattrap and Arcee. She's apparently his Great Aunt.

wolfbot86 wrote:What I don't get is the need to have all the transformers continuities have the same origin. Seeing as how in the cartoon, primus wasn't even in the series, I don't get the need to recont it since the Five Faces of Darkness would make that bit of the recont irrelevant. sorry if that isn't worded right.

One reason could be that Primus felt that the bots were to masculinity and felt the need to soften the race somewhat.

I wonder what is going to happen if IDW goes with it's idea not to include Primus as the creator. http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Primus

Also would the All Spark in Animated and the Movies replace Primus? If so, why would the All Spark create female bots?

Well, technically, The AllSpark is Primus. More accurately, it's his very spark. Thus, Animated isn't really replacing Primus at all. As for IDW, They're going to be publishing a new miniseries written by Simon Furman titled The Thirteen, which, according to Mr Furman, is supposed to be the definitive origin story for the entire TF mythos, including the IDW-verse, Animated, G1 cartoon, comics, UT, etc.

As for why, that's simple. the origin is one of the key factors in establishing the identity of a franchise. It is what sets it apart from other similar properties. It is also what gives that property a sense of continuity and unity as a singular property. That's why no matter how many times properties like Batman, Superman, etc, have been rebooted, their origin stories always remain consistent. They don't rewrite the origin story.

As for Five Faces of Darkness and the retcon establishing Primus in the cartoon continuity, Wreckers #3 has a very good reconciliation for that which explains the Quintesson's actual role in the Transformers' early development without completely overwriting the original episode.

Rurudyne wrote:I suppose a complementary question to the debate about femmes is what purpose to things like "petrorabbits" or "turbofoxes" have? There were references to Iacon having a zoo too, for example. I suppose the nature of cybertronian 'animals' (or drones — whatever) might not be as sexy a discussions about femmes ... which is likely why they occur less frequently.

Simple, they're Cybertronian wildlife which live in a natural ecosystem as predator, prey, vermin, etc. each filling an ecological niche. Cybertron and other similar planets have been shown to have rather diverse ecosystems with a wide range of cybernetic flora and fauna large and small ranging from huge predators to nanomachine microbes and non-viruses, Dangerous Scrapmetals, giant robo-squids, Cyber-piranha, etc. each existing within an ecological niche. Such fauna would certainly need to reproduce on their own in order to maintain their populations. No one would purposely manufacture them, particularly the more dangerous predators and vermin.

Just a warning, if this turns into a repeat of the last thread that bore the same topic, it will be locked ASAP. This means you Tramp.

wolfbolt86 wrote:Why would the All Spark create female bots?

Because it was bored. Sometimes, the simplest answer is the right one.
I win.

Civ wrote:So, go ahead, come up with a valid reason that Primus would create fembots. I'm curious to see what people come up with.

Primus. Dammit.

That's blown my pre-planned "appeal to a wider/creepier demographic" argument right out of the water.

Damn you, Civ!

Sad perverts to wank over.

Creepier perverts to draw baby pictures of then 'adult' pictures in suggestive poses.

Oh, right, in-continuity: for the hell of it, with as much internal consistency as has tended to accompany any other about-turns in TF scripting.

Or slightly more seriously... Primus would be unlikely to see any reason, having provided a bunch of other ways to create TF life, but its creations might enjoy (or see advantage to) imitating biological life-forms.

Ackula wrote:Just a warning, if this turns into a repeat of the last thread that bore the same topic, it will be locked ASAP.

I certainly hope this doesn't turn into that thread. I was just curious to see what people thought would be valid reasons for Primus to create fembots.

Halfshell wrote:Damn you, Civ!

I've been complimented! Yay!!

Civ wrote:I've been complimented! Yay!!

You're lucky I have no real powers anymore, else I'd ban you for having sent up the TrampSignal.

Halfshell wrote:You're lucky I have no real powers anymore, else I'd ban you for having sent up the TrampSignal.

What is the Trampsignal shaped like?

A chibi Chromia being arse-****ed by a chibi Ironhide.

NSFW

Not forgetting...

Tramp wrote:Thunderblast from Cybertron has actual breasts under her armor. In the show, there are many scenes in which we get a partial glimpse of them. One of the best is when Lori challenges her and she is leading Lori and Windsabre towards the water. Her breasts can be seen bouncing back and forth as she runs.

I'll never forget that diatribe, it made never want to watch Cybertron again.

I bet you a tenner Tramp will try to find the uncensored version of that image....

And that still has me in tears about a year on. They're about 50% tears of laughter, 50% tears of sadness.