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Bought the first tpb about two weeks ago and found the second one today.

I'm kind of conflicted on what I think of it though. Banner, Stark, and Thor are the only likeable characters from what I've seen. I can't stand Captain America or either of the Pyms and it's all based on their stupid-ass connections with each other. Having read both of those arcs, it seems like Hank was justified in being suspicious, not the whole horde of ants thing, of Jan and Captain America because they hook up almost as soon as she's out of the damn hospital.

I also dislike the Pyms because their powers seem lame and they dumped on Bruce Banner. Poor, poor Bruce Banner. Hulk sad.

Anyway, is Ultimates 2 Volume 1 where I need to go now? What Ultimates tpbs are out?

Ultimates is awesome... I've always said that if you like Ultimate Cap, you have severe problems. He's a right-wing bastard from the forties - an excellent character, but likeable? No. Lots of it seems to be confronting the basic Avengers mythology - MU Cap can do no wrong; Ultimate Cap will kick a helpless foe in the face out of spite. It's the same with the Pyms - rather than providing us with the easy answers thier MU relationship has (such as Hank being deranged), it means we have to make our own judgements on the couple, and also stops Hank having some cop-out - most marital troubles in pre-Ultimate Marvel are due to some out of the ordinary influence, rather than the two people involved just being turds.

Like I say, I think the idea is that they're both hard to like characters... Hank's largely reasonable, but ****, he hit his wife. Jan's been beaten up, but she's far from an innocent. They've all got hang-ups - Stark's a womanising, glib sod (there's none of the attempts to give him relationships like in much of Iron Man); Thor will stand by and let people die for political means; Fury's an order-following soldier boy; Pietro and Wanda are rather close; Banner is obsessed with the Hulk.

Yeah, I think it's

Vol 1, 1: Super-Human
Vol 1, 2: Homeland Security
Vol 2, 1: Gods And Monsters

You've read the Authority, right? Ultimates is basically the Authority with Marvel. Basically, it seemed decent but I'd read the concept before with characters I didn't expect to be spandex wonders. Maybe that's a bit harsh; it did read well.

.

See, I'm a fan of Thor, but then I'd probably be on his side politically and from what I've read, he is there when they need him even if he's not going to officially become one of them. I guess there's more to him in series 2?

Originally posted by Denyer

You've read the Authority, right? Ultimates is basically the Authority with Marvel. Basically, it seemed decent but I'd read the concept before with characters I didn't expect to be spandex wonders. Maybe that's a bit harsh; it did read well.

Pfff, it's a Marvel superhero book, you get what you pay for. I want something mind-expanding, I'll read Planetary or Miracleman. If I want adventure with a touch of realism, I read Ultimates. Just because it's not breaking new ground doesn't mean it should be written off.


At least in the Ultimates we're very much given the impression the way Cap largely acts isn't right (any impression Millar's on some preaching trip goes out the window when he kicks Bruce at the end of #5), unlike the downright worrying MK Cap series they did a couple of years ago, when John Ney Rieber turned him into a post-9/11 right-wing revenge figure.

I've got to say, though, I got as far as the Captain Europe bit in Vol. 2 and decided I could wait a bit before reading the rest. It sort of lost a bit of momentum during the break between #13 and U2 for me, which is odd as the publication gaps during the second arc just didn't bother me at all. Millar is an excellent dialogue writer, even if as you say Spengs there's a little too much lazy satire, and Hitch has to be the greatest artist working now (his action just about shades John Cassidey). The team's foibles make them that bit more compelling to me - it's the classic Stormwatch quasi-realistic approach - these guys are all going to have egos, views that don't tally with team mates and issues like everyone else, without going overboard to the "my life sucks" schtick you get in some superhero books.

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Just because it's not breaking new ground doesn't mean it should be written off.

True, true. It just feels slightly like it was assembled (no pun intended) because someone went "we should have something like that, let's get in an artist and a writer from the title" in the grand ol' tradition of original thought at the Big Two.

Judged purely on the basis of volume one, it's honestly great -- the best thing to come out of Marvel, save for the way lines occasionally seem to be from other characters you know, or occasionally a bit glib... even Cap is likeable, mostly for me because in the initial story he seems to be a toned-down Jack Hawksmoor (and Thor mixes in several characters, with the trans-dimension teleporting and the lightning through double-page spreads of airborne craft.)

There's a bit of a macguffin with the characters starting up around a fixed timepoint (only so many times you can watch a team be put together, just as there's only so many times you can watch a team be replaced with evil versions of themselves, etc) but that's entirely forgivable.

Volume two is grittier-than-thou depression, with a revelation-based plot. It's like Millar skipped straight to Brave New World, but is insistent on not being interpreted as farce this time around.

I do agree that it's slightly derivative, but then surely by definition the Ultimate line is just that... Ellis's Ultimate Fantastic Four features recycled characters as well, both from Waid's snappier 21st Century MU F4 book and Ellis' own back-catalogue.

I think the momentum of the idea had possibly shaken out by the end of the first volume, much in the way the Authority diminished after the first 16 issues, because after that it starts becoming a more mainstream superhero book, with changing rotas and having to follow up on earlier characterisation and the like, without losing the sort-of god-like auras that make the characters so full of impact early on.

Personally, I find the start-up of the Ultimates' characters coming at about the same time more than forgivable - Iron Man had been around for some time (on page? Couldn't tell you. But IM is in existance before the events of #1), Hank's research being the basis of both his and Jan's powers means they're bound to emerge at the same time, and Thor's also been at large for a while before the events of the first issue. The only real cheat is that Cap turns up just as the line-up's assembled. Compare that to the Authority, where before the ret-con that was the Sparks mini, they all just turn up. Five underground superheroes who've been effectively written out of Stormwatch get together, just happen to find the successors to two guest characters who got killed in SW, and then stumble across a pan-dimensional spaceship with full teleport. Put a cynical spin on it and it sounds dreadful, doesn't it?

I'm basically all for a few recruitment serendipities if it means we get into the bloody story faster. One of the problems with the Avengers was always whenever they had a roster change, and we had to learn about the new people cocking up and the team gelling (or, more recently, Geoff Johns beating off over the page going "Look how EDGY I am! Wooo! Ant-Man!"). It's the same with that JLA TPB you sent me... I mean, once it gets going it's fantastic, but there's that first one where Bruce, Clark and Cap'n Hook are standing around in the Kents' kitchen going "Hmmm, who shall we have in the team?". How that's interesting to anyone bar fanboys, I don't know.

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
by definition the Ultimate line is just that

Of the Marvel roster, naturally. Of Hitch drawing jagged bolts of electricity through skycraft with his trademark angles, not so much. Is UF4 any good, BTW?

I think the momentum of the idea had possibly shaken out by the end of the first volume, much in the way the Authority diminished after the first 16 issues, because after that it starts becoming a more mainstream superhero book

Mmm. Although they do a decent enough job of placing the team into context, and the issue with the Defenders is amusing... although at times it's well into predictably easy farce.

In volume one, although there were arcs, each issue could generally be read as an independent story. Volume two doesn't have that -- there's a lot of flashing between Thor and the others, because it's a slow-boiler.

(The "cheat", I'd say, hits home more in volume two, where with little timegap there are suddenly international labs with tech that seems to put the other heroes to shame -- now, this may in part be Loki's perception shuffle, depending on which issue retcons which. Point being that we've gone from the world being a less busy place -- with no indication of capes active, or stray comments, and the focus being very enclosed -- to "oh, all these other people are active" from the X-Mansion to Reed gaining powers at 21. The small window in which everything happens comes through title over-stuffing.)

there's that first one where Bruce, Clark and Cap'n Hook are standing around in the Kents' kitchen going "Hmmm, who shall we have in the team?". How that's interesting to anyone bar fanboys, I don't know.

Ah, dunno. It's there principally to underline that, in the universe in question, the two golden boys of DC can have more-or-less anyone they damn well pick, can sweet-talk anyone, etc. It's emphatically a silver-age universe, on glossy paper, in which logic takes backseat to bright 'n' bold adventure.

Probably the best thing about Morrison's tear-it-down-built-it-up approach is that Batman's immediately beaten in a fair fight (i.e. his opponent simply knows more than any human could, thanks to tech.) It's one in the face for fanboys who insist on "Batman vs [X]" conversations.

then stumble across a pan-dimensional spaceship with full teleport. Put a cynical spin on it and it sounds dreadful, doesn't it?

It is awful, but it's a deliberate elephant-in-the-room by Ellis. His potted summary of the book was "a twelve-episode superhero fiction series where the eponymous team fight Fu Manchu, Ming the Merciless and God (dressed up as Cthulhu)", a' all.

The only thing even slightly realistic about the Authority is the body count -- in the first two books we've got parallel universes, fasttrack superhuman cloning, a giant space creature from beyond time, and an army of mass-produced capes. It's an exercise in taking the piss, absurdist theatre in the pre-established Wildstorm universe. With media references thrown in, particularly by Millar.

Ultimates also aims for being about concepts, or at least that escalation is there by volume two. Seperate volume one and consider it on its own, and the comparison to the Authority is far less valid.

I'm curious what they're going to do with Stark after the five years are up in story-time... or rather, I'm curious what the "get out" will be, and I'm curious how Hulk will be re-introduced, because I have a great deal of faith in the ability of a comics company to screw up anything that sells and they want to continue selling, where you don't have Moore saying "I'm keeping the characters, and these are the arcs."

Even with Gaiman, we got The Dreaming, because the bottom line dictated.

Hmmm, Iron Man has been tried with Stark in a supporting role (Rhodey wore the suit for something like a year or so back in the 1980s), and without the attachment built up of 30 years of him being the lead character (the main reason the teen Tony Stark revamp failed in the mid-1990s, much in the same way any drastic lead character revamp of a long-established character has largely failed - the fanboys don't like change), I could see them doing it. that is, of course, assuming anyone who cares is still on the book in five years.

Joe's rule is if the new EDGY ex-DC writer who's on the book this month wants to tear up the book's history, he can. Want Jack of Hearts to be an EDGY MAVERICK instead of the level-headed guy he actually is? Never mind those two years of characterisation Busiek gave him, just flip a switch and change the character instantly. Don't like that Morrison actually gave the X-Men some character advancement? Never mind Chris, just bring back all your sh*tty characters and start the issue with a baseball game.

Basically, I see no reason why the Ultimate universe isn't going to be the same mire of reset buttons the regular universe is now by the time they get there, even with something that large. Reed Richards microsurgery, Thor's hammer, take your pick, there's just about any way sadly.

UF4 is alright... it's basically Fantastic 4 with sharp dialogue, and without Reed and Sue being married. There have been a couple of drop-dead funny moments (there's a classic moment where Johnny complains Reed's always naming the Fantasticar etc., so Reed lets him name their shuttle... the next panel is the nose of the shuttle with the name "Awesome" written across it), but the plotlines are the usual Ultimate * stuff of the first few sixties storylines with cel phones etc. The dialogue's good, but basically recycled, with Reed as a male Engineer, Sue as the Shen-esque Oen He Doesn't Have Anything Really To Give To, Johnny as a young Hellstrike and The Thing as a big grumpy git.

Originally posted by Sir Auros
See, I'm a fan of Thor, but then I'd probably be on his side politically and from what I've read, he is there when they need him even if he's not going to officially become one of them. I guess there's more to him in series 2?

Yes, Thor is in Ultimates 2.

SPOILER! (select to read)

After the Hulk is "excuted" for his crimes in volume one, Thor quits the team in protest.
Thor has drink at a NYC bar with one of the other Norse Gods and that tells him the US goverment and the Ultimates will try and disgrace and that Loki will try to kill him.
After that a waiter asks Thor to leave because he's scaring the other customers because he's talking to himself and learn that Thor might be crazy after all.
Then we learn Ultimate Thor's "orgin" from his sciencist brother
whom Thor thinks is Loki.
It seems that the USA isn't the only country intrested in having an Ultimate super-team.
It seems that every country in the EU is busy coping (or trying) to
build their own version of the Ultimates and it seems the EU is especially intrested in coping the super-solider serum (besides just Captain America we have Captian Britian, Captian Italy, Captain Germany, Captian France, and etc) and we learn that Thor is actually Norway's verison of Captian America, and that his powers are actually based on science and may not be mystical.
After a hell of battle that Thor loses (but not after giving a the Ultimates and The EU Captians a serious beating) he is
captured and in imprisioned in the Ultimates' HQ where Banner was held.
While in jail Thor has a talk with his brother and it appears that it's either:
A) Loki messing with the universe
or
B) The Ultimate Thor's just plain crazy.

Originally posted by Sir Auros
I guess there's more to him in series 2?

Shorter, less spoiler-y answer: volume two mostly revolves around Thor.

Originally posted by Denyer
Shorter, less spoiler-y answer: volume two mostly revolves around Thor.

Going from Tom's earlier response, he acts as an asshat? Appreciate that spoiler-less answer.

Sort of. The twist is that Thor is either entirely justified acting the way he does in the circumstances, or is a mental case -- the reader is kept in the dark in much the same way characters are, and the arc hasn't been completed in print yet.

That's about as much as can be said without getting into details...

Just read the first 9 issues of vol2... Pretty darn good at the moment, I really feel for Thor now, but...

SPOILER! (select to read)

I found the twist about Black Widow being the traitor a little to obvious, as soon as I heard the word traitor I thought "Black Widow... Russian 'Former Spy'"

I adore The Ultimates. Having no prior familiarity with The Avengers (bar Steed and Mrs. Peel of course) I do occasionally get a little lost as to who the smaller cameo's on the team actually are, but it's big epic fun.

And surely Spregs, the end of the last issue actually validates rather than attacks Bush boys world view? After all, he's allways telling us Terrorists are everywhere with unimaginable secret wepons ready to destroy the American Dream (tm) and this issue proves him right. Mind you, I'm not sure that's how it's ment to look...

Ultimates are cool but prefer mainstream Marvel stuff:smokin:

Just finished Volume 1 in the second series and thought it was way better than the other two. The Thor arc is interesting, but I think it's hard to believe he's crazy the way it's presented.

Ending on a cliffhanger like that really sucks though and I don't want to have to track down issues 7 - 9 now.

Originally posted by Sir Auros
Ending on a cliffhanger like that really sucks though and I don't want to have to track down issues 7 - 9 now.

7-10 as of last week.

I think Ultimates 2 is waaaaay stronger than the 1st series. Wait til you get to read issue 9 and 10, they're pretty damn good for an alright series.

Issues 9 & 10 of the new series have completely blown me away, even if 10 was just badass posturing without any sort of story (and overly similar to one of Millar's storylines in Authority). The thing is that I didn't care, though. I simply cannot wait to read the next issue, which is what a good comic should do.

Tony Stark is my idol, by the way.