TFARCHIVE FORUMS

Now, how many times did comic book companies come up with really cool new concepts for their characters, but later decided to get "back to basic" because some ultra-geeky fanboys complained that "their" characters weren't exactly as they were created decades ago anymore?

Here's my list of what I'd have kept:

1) "Professor" Hulk. So Doc Samson discovers that the different incarnations of the Hulk (green savage, grey thug) are just different aspects of Bruce Banner's split personality. He somehow manages to "merge" them, and the result is a green, powerful Hulk who has the personality and intelligence of Bruce Banner.
And then, he finds out it's just another aspect of the "real" Banner personality, and we're now back to green & wild...

2) Ben Reilly as Spider-Man. Granted, the whole "clone saga" was a fiasco and waaaaay too long, but I really liked when Ben was Spider-Man. The costume rocked, the stories were fun and Peter deserved his freedom from super-heroics with his pregnant wife. If only they had decided to carry on with Ben, but noooo, they had to bring the Goblin (!) back and kill off Ben in order for him never to show up again...

3) Electric Superman. Curse me, but I liked the idea, I liked the costume, I liked the powers. Morrison showed how to use it well in his JLA stories, but the writers of the Superman titles screwed it up with "Oh no, I lost my old powers, how sad, now how can I try to copy my old powers with my new ones?" And then they made it even worse with that cr@ppy "Superman Red/Superman blue" concept, and then decided to bring back the old red & blue boy scout...

4) Batman's mid-Nineties costume. The yellow oval was a mainstay since the Sixties, and the all-black costume without the trunks he started wearing after Zero Hour simply rocked. But somehow, after No Man's Land, DC went back to the old original look in grey & black, with those stuuuuuupid trunks and without the yellow oval.

5) Sandman as a hero. Bill Baker's change from a Spidey villain into a reformed ex-criminal, working as a mercanary (the good kind) and even becoming a superhero himself and joining the Avengers (!), occasionally teaming up with his former enemy Spider-Man, was both believable and really nice to see. But somehow, Byrne decided he "needed" a "classic" villain Sandman, so it was suddenly all just part of his "plan" (suuuure, he played the good guy for years only to reveal himself in a really stupid scenario later on), to be later rewritten as "the Wizard brainwashed him into becoming a villain again".

6) Connor Hawke as Green Arrow. Granted, he's still wearing the costume, but with his daddy alive again, he's rarely using that identity anymore. And Kyle & Connor make for a much better team-up than Kyle & Ollie...

7) Wolverine without that blasted Adamantium. Sure, the "Logan mutates into a savage creature" was a little over the top, but aside from that, I preferred him with bony claws, and he's much more easily defeated without that ultra-hard skeleton (although his healing powers are better, on the other hand).

Hated all of those, so...

Didn't hate all of those, liked Ben Reilly, liked bone-claw wolvie, didn't mind intelligent green hulk, good idea really. Do hate fanboys who determine comics should be stagnant crap. Changing a character with respect can be a good thing.

Originally posted by angloconvoy
Didn't hate all of those, liked Ben Reilly, liked bone-claw wolvie, didn't mind intelligent green hulk, good idea really. Do hate fanboys who determine comics should be stagnant crap. Changing a character with respect can be a good thing.

I just wasn't feeling them. It's not the whole 'They changed __________, how dare they!' thing. I just didn't really like them.

Wolverine without his Adamantium was cool at times, Ben Reilly was decent enough, but meh.

Superman's new powers could have been good, but everything I read of that was just sheer crap.

Originally posted by fort_max
Superman's new powers could have been good, but everything I read of that was just sheer crap.

Did you read Morrison's JLA books? They kicked anything Jurgens & Co. came up with in the ass big time.

And personally, I think the worst thing was the Sandman issue. He had been reformed for nearly fifteen years and then turned back to crime simply because a writer wanted to use a villain Sandman in some crappy stories.

Originally posted by Nevermore
Did you read Morrison's JLA books? They kicked anything Jurgens & Co. came up with in the ass big time.

Nope. Didn't read JLA at all until about a year ago.

And personally, I think the worst thing was the Sandman issue. He had been reformed for nearly fifteen years and then turned back to crime simply because a writer wanted to use a villain Sandman in some crappy stories.

Yeah, that was really stupid, too. The 'Reborn' storyarc in Peter Parker: Spider-man was pretty good though.

I haven´t read any of those, so I can´t really judge - but I think I understand those who don´t want changes. IMO it´s always the question about how believable the change is - and how good it´s done.

For example, Wolverine without adamantium somehow doesn´t "feel" like him at all(I read a copy where he mentioned he didn´t have his adamantium anymore - I was shocked by the thought).

However, I do understand that there´s need for changes, as the stories would repeat themselves otherwise.


IMHO, it´d be best if these changes were for a set period of time, maybe even years, but with a fixed end, so that things like Nevermore said won´t happen.

Warren should have stayed blue, with the metal wings.

Before metal wings: boring
With metal wings: interesting
After metal wings: boring

There's a pattern there, but I can't quite pick it out...

X-Force should have kept the Counter-X set-up. Hell, Marvel should have kept Counter-X.

I actually thought John Walker as Captain America was a brilliant arc, but probably part of its charm was that it didn't run for years. The same probably applies for the time Magneto spent with the X-Men & Muties.

The new Superman was the worst of all time.

Professor Hulk is just lame if you ask me. The entire concept of the character is that Bruce Banner has this monster inside of him that he can't control, that no one can control. If the Hulk can be controlled then you've lost the character. There is enormously strong genius heroes in other comics if that turns your fancy, that's not what the Hulk is...

Ben Reilly was a poor solution to what was wrong with Spider-Man. It was horribly executed. Peter Parker is Spider-Man. Instead of crapping on that they could've just written the character into what would make him more interesting. See JMS's Spider-Man for how it should be done...

I really don't have that much problem with Electric Superman other than it was written by a bunch of hacks that could never work on a comic for the rest of their lives and make me a happy man by doing so. Although it could never be a permanent thing, he's an American icon, he's got to stay recognizable. DC understands that.

I like Batman in as dark as possible a costume but even during the era you talk about their were artists drawing him with trunks. The yellow oval is stupid, no matter how much armor you're wearing you don't put a bright target on your chest with the purpose of drawing gunfire. Not if you want to fight crime for any extended amount of time...

Marvel's Sandman sucks as a hero and a villain, I'm indifferent. Now DC's Sandman, he rules and he's neither hero or villain.

Connor Hawke is still Green Arrow, see current issues of Green Arrow...

I liked Wolverine without the adamantium, what I didn't like was the constant, "Is he gonna get it back this issue?" crap they were pulling for like 3 years. It'd be so much better for them to try writing stories that are interesting instead of relying on something superficial to keep the readers attention. I also like him with it. It's cool to watch him take maximum punishment and still kick ass. He's the ultimate bad ass!

Originally posted by Hound
I like Batman in as dark as possible a costume but even during the era you talk about their were artists drawing him with trunks. The yellow oval is stupid, no matter how much armor you're wearing you don't put a bright target on your chest with the purpose of drawing gunfire. Not if you want to fight crime for any extended amount of time...

Beat me to it...

being a big batman fan i have to say Im not a fan of teh yellow oval I mean its just not as stealthy as just the black bat. Ill have ot vote for professor hulk after having to go through all that **** throught his life hes finally stabilized soemwhat and he turned out to be a funny character changing him back to his original makes it seem like they are back to square one and nothing happened (at least thats how it feels to me). .......as for sandman yeah i like him as a hero.

*edit* yeah auros it seems he beat both of us to it *edit*

Originally posted by Hound
Professor Hulk is just lame if you ask me. The entire concept of the character is that Bruce Banner has this monster inside of him that he can't control, that no one can control. If the Hulk can be controlled then you've lost the character. There is enormously strong genius heroes in other comics if that turns your fancy, that's not what the Hulk is...

I actually I started reading the Hulk because I liked the Professor Hulk better than the traditional Hulk
(The "Hulk smash" one)
I think by giving the Hulk a brain where he's not running around in torn jeans and running around a desert screaming "Hulk smash!" and "Hulk is the strongest one" makes me care about him it's the not same thing every issue.
The traditional Hulk's Basic plot was something like this:
Bruce Banner arrives in small desert town and tries to cure himself the army(or supervillian or local thugs) shows up piss Banner off Hulk beats everyone up Banner runs away.
Rince and repeat
I'm sorry but that to me gets old real fast.
Then you have the "Bruce Banner was beaten by his father as a kid and the Hulk is his pent up rage" while that's a nice psycological twist but that runs thin after Samson (or Betty Banner/Hulk) tries to use it as an excuse for the Hulk's actions makes me feel more hatred for the character than pity.

going ot have to go with cyberstrike on the hulk thing....besides if we just had the same old hulk than we wouldnt have experienced hulk saying "from the land of the jolly ho ho ho" ...I dont remember the issue but it was during a 3 parter called war and pieces where hulk was helping his pantheon friends liberate some dictatorship country and X-factor was in it. anyway green giant references are always funny...

Originally posted by Cyberstrike nTo
The traditional Hulk's Basic plot was something like this:
Bruce Banner arrives in small desert town and tries to cure himself the army(or supervillian or local thugs) shows up piss Banner off Hulk beats everyone up Banner runs away.
Rince and repeat
I'm sorry but that to me gets old real fast.

Indeed it does, but don't fault the character for the failings of the writer. It is possible to write interesting stories about the Hulk without changing what the Hulk is.

I liked Wolverine without the adamantium. The bone claws were just..."cooler". I especially liked the issue of Wolverine (from Fatal Attraction) when his bone claws first pop out. So bloody.

And honestly, if you're gonna make a change that drastic to a character you should consider leaving him that way. Honestly, I didn't even know he had gotten the adamantium back until about a year ago when someone o this board brought it up. Apparantly Apocalypse put it back in him? Weak.

That brings to mind one of the biggest changes I've seen from a character in a long time. Two-Face. In the Hush story arc he got turned back into Harvey again. I think that's a great idea. Yeah, it's hard to say goodbye to Two-Face but Harvey really deserved a happy "ending". Besides, any attempt they might make to turn him back into Two-Face will end up being incredibly sh*tty. I hope he stays normal.

yeah i know what you mean spengler....but man Two-face is probably my favorite bat villian (its a toss up between him and the scarecrow) hes just so cool......i dont want him to have a happy ending:(

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Warren should have stayed blue, with the metal wings.

Before metal wings: boring
With metal wings: interesting
After metal wings: boring

There's a pattern there, but I can't quite pick it out...

yeah as good at doing things like that to muties you would think apoc would make it permanet or at least make it so he can change back and forth

Originally posted by DrSpengler
Apparantly Apocalypse put it back in him? Weak.

from what been said and done aparently he put it in there the first time as his first atempt to make an angel fo death

seams pocky has a hard on fo making x-men into death

archangel, wolvie, and calabrin

Originally posted by Hound
Indeed it does, but don't fault the character for the failings of the writer. It is possible to write interesting stories about the Hulk without changing what the Hulk is.

I disagree. Peter David's stories with the Proff Hulk were among the best ever writen. Davids hardly 'changed' everything but just created a long story ark that was very different. David explored many areas of the Bruce/hulk physology and had Smart Hulk-Bruce have fun, go terrifying, guilty, turn to normal Bruce when he was angry and so on. I might add that David's 'smart Hulk' was so popular and well written that come Onslaught on he, the X-titles and Spider-man were popular enough not to be canceled and carted off for a reboot. Hulk only was canceled and rebooted when they brought back the old version and forced Peter David to leave.

Archangle was suddleny a cool and intresting character with the metal wings. And pretty popular too at the time. It's the failings of the mid 90's writing team that they failed to capatalise on the intresting concept of a mutant who loved his old mutation and life only to have it all destroyed.

Ben Reilly and electric Superman-no comment. Both were poor.

Sandman was a goodish Spiderman character. His reform was a good and gradual peice of character developement and it was fresh and different as it ment we had at least one character who just dident 'return' for a new villanous plot in spiderman and it's sensible over the years at leats 1 superpowered villian would learn the errror of their ways and want to try and be a good citizen after a few spells in prision.


I loved Bat's black costum too. The return to the original also makes little sense with me.

I never said David couldn't write stories about a smart Hulk well. In fact I'd wager that the Mr. Fixit Hulk and the smart Hulk stories were probably very well written. I'm saying that good stories about an uncontrolable Hulk are better. The current Hulk stories are very good.

Archangel was cool for the costume alone, the added character development was the bonus...