TFARCHIVE FORUMS

Entirely off-topic, but I think the femme-bots could work and help emphasis that these are living creatures instead of just sentient constructs.

On-topic - I particularly liked the age group he's shooting for as it means it should be accessible enough for the mainstream while still being at the very least entertaining for us. Course, I think the DW comics are fitting that description now, so I doubt the movie will please all of us.

Originally posted by Sir Auros
I think the femme-bots could work and help emphasis that these are living creatures instead of just sentient constructs.

Because someone welded fake breasts onto a chassis?

Transformers are sentient constructs, in both cartoons and comics. They don't reproduce sexually, and have no need for gender.

TFormers: Are you planning a "big-bad" so to speak, be it a character or other danger, past the core characters of each side?

Don: No.

Yay!

Originally posted by Denyer
Because someone welded fake breasts onto a chassis?

Transformers are sentient constructs, in both cartoons and comics. They don't reproduce sexually, and have no need for gender.

You're saying that gender is only useful when it comes to reproduction but I disagree. I think it's quite important to emphasize what gender means in terms of personality. I also regret that the original fembots were poorly developed characters and a rushed concept in general. But I also liked the Blackarachnia and Botanica charachters and their interaction with male charachters. I do realize none of us expects to see steamy love scenes or even kisses between transformers but the concept that these are all male soldiers is kinda boring.

Besides, are all TFans boys? It's kind of old-fashioned that these toys are all male oriented. I'm sure there are girls that like machines and violence. There should be place for them as well.

I'm tired of these stories being just fight-fight-fight. Bringing in females makes it interesting, more intrigue, more tension, more motivation for the male charachters.

Agreed. This idea that female TFs aren't useful simply because of reproduction issues is a bit of a cop-out. The range of personalities that can be explored is greatly increased with the inclusion of femmebots. And those personas that pre-exist expand in regards to how they respond to both male and female transformers. I agree, I don't think things should be taken too far, but the concept isn't in any way horrid.

Originally posted by Denyer
Because someone welded fake breasts onto a chassis?

Transformers are sentient constructs, in both cartoons and comics. They don't reproduce sexually, and have no need for gender.

No, because with the right story, they could easily reproduce sexually and gender could be integrated. Beast Wars provides pretty good groundwork for this with the spark thing as well as showing relationships between genders and Budiansky's initial explanation for Transformer life insinuated that the Transformers were lifeforms that had just evolved mechanically instead of organically. If you're including sparks into the mix and giving these beings the equivalent of a soul, I see no reason to make them nothing other than mobile toasters with AI.

Granted, neither of the original continuities ended with room for Transformers being able to reproduce, I still think a continuity could be formed where a type of sexual reproduction is possible. Not sexual as we would consider it per se, but a joining of two sparks to form a new one that forms a new being. I wouldn't find it too much of a stretch to say a spark (being a supernatural creation anyway) is capable of forming new matter (remember, supernatural) and can account for a Transformer's mild regenerative capabilities as well as the gradual formation of a new being's body.

Not that I ponder Transformer sex all that often, but I'm in the school that these are more than simply machines with sentience and can imitate aspects of organic life without being organic. Of course, being a completely alien species, it could also be argued that there's no reason for them to imitate any form of organic life...but considering nearly all of them have clear humanoid characteristics including body parts that would be unnecessary for machines, I don't think reproduction is such a stretch.

Continue in here.

Originally posted by phoenix
I think it's quite important to emphasize what gender means in terms of personality.

Go on then, what does gender mean in terms of personality?

I'm sure your answer will be revealing.

Originally posted by phoenix
I do realize none of us expects to see steamy love scenes or even kisses between transformers but the concept that these are all male soldiers is kinda boring.

They aren't male. Nor do fictional characters on alien planets speak English, or aliens speak English amongst themselves when not trying to communicate with humans.

Originally posted by Pun-3X
The range of personalities that can be explored is greatly increased with the inclusion of femmebots.

People have been muttering this for about twenty years, and nothing has come of it other than other than a tendency for parts of the fandom to ascribe wafer-thin stereotypes of human gender to fictional aliens.

Originally posted by Sir Auros
with the right story, they could easily reproduce sexually and gender could be integrated

Yay! Because we need more idiots in the audience, obviously...

Originally posted by Denyer
Yay! Because we need more idiots in the audience, obviously...

Ok, so I'm an idiot for wanting a continuity with this, whatever.

So, er, what function do you see robots having sex fulfilling other than to draw in a large number of people who're unable to approach characters without anthropomorphizing them?

edit: I'll grant you a few seem capable of coping with the notion of gender that isn't human, that involves either a single gender or many—or gender that isn't chemically fixed, as is the case in other organisms. I'm afraid I have less faith in people not to dash off and write wooden fanfic at the first possible opportunity.

Like I said in my earlier post, it helps flesh out that these are living creatures instead of just soulless constructs that happen to be sentient. It's not about making them more like humans so much as making them more like organic beings. The thing that I always thought was so interesting about the characters was that they weren't machines, they were alive.

The damage has already been done regarding horndogs writing fanfic or making fanart based on the fembots having been introduced, and I think people with the maturity to handle more than one gender in the story are worth having a bone thrown to them. I don't need for there to be female characters to relate to the characters more, but it doesn't need to hurt anything if it's done right.

I also wouldn't mind seeing some decent romance stories...

Originally posted by Sir Auros

I also wouldn't mind seeing some decent romance stories...

Go get Casablanca and Betty Blue then.

Pfff, I really really don't see the need for female characters... Blackarachnia's the only one who's been anything other than excreble [sp? erm, rubbish], and she quickly turned into a giant pain the arse in BM.

The term 'femmebots' needs to go. I mean, for a start, are all the others 'Malbots'? 'Femmebots' summons up memories of those three cahnts in "The Very Short and Pointless Search for Alpha Trion" and everything else that hack Wise shat out. It means Arcee. Arcee wasn't a character. She was an extension of Hot Rod, something only perpetuated since by Hack Mick and the rest of them.

I'd be interested in a female character, if: -
a) She was well written
b) We had a decent explanation for why female Transformers exist. In all continuities bar the UK comic, there has been no real explanation of this, besides them being decorative [to some minds, at least... they won't admit it, but I bet half of the female Autobots' male fans have a bit more interest than them being "cool characters"] and a bit useless
c) The deisng makes sense. Why are female Autobots pink, dainty and with curves in the right place? Do any of the "male" characters have any more in common with male humans than the female ones do, i.e. a basic body configuration?

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Pfff, I really really don't see the need for female characters... Blackarachnia's the only one who's been anything other than excreble [sp? erm, rubbish], and she quickly turned into a giant pain the arse in BM.

Everything turned to ass in BM. None of them have been worthwhile aside from Blackarachnia, but that doesn't mean the trend has to continue.

I'd be interested in a female character, if: -
a) She was well written
b) We had a decent explanation for why female Transformers exist. In all continuities bar the UK comic, there has been no real explanation of this, besides them being decorative [to some minds, at least... they won't admit it, but I bet half of the female Autobots' male fans have a bit more interest than them being "cool characters"] and a bit useless
c) The deisng makes sense. Why are female Autobots pink, dainty and with curves in the right place? Do any of the "male" characters have any more in common with male humans than the female ones do, i.e. a basic body configuration?

This has pretty much been what I'm preaching, but most of the male characters do share basic body designs similar to male archetypes. Broad shoulders/chests, large arms, etc. Now, I see no need for robo-bosums, but faces can be feminine (without adding ridiculous robo-lipstick) and a slighter build would work.

It would work if they used Grace Jones as the archetype.

Originally posted by Sir Auros
Like I said in my earlier post, it helps flesh out that these are living creatures instead of just soulless constructs that happen to be sentient. It's not about making them more like humans so much as making them more like organic beings. The thing that I always thought was so interesting about the characters was that they weren't machines, they were alive.

What does gender have to do with the fact of something being alive? What does a character being a machine have to do with it being alive, for that matter? As for soulless... gender is required for emotion? Huh? Whilst we're on the subject of organic life... various lifeforms on this planet are hermaphroditic or parthogenetic.

Originally posted by Sir Auros
I think people with the maturity to handle more than one gender in the story

Ah right, you're assigning 'maturity' to your stance in the discussion. Fair's fair, because I'm doing much the same; I think it's immature to ascribe our notions of sexual behaviour to an alien race that doesn't perpetuate itself through f*cking and flirting.

Originally posted by Sir Auros
it doesn't need to hurt anything if it's done right.

The inference is that Transformers are somehow incomplete without analogues of human sexuality... although I admit it'd be a novelty to have the alien race in a kids' fiction series be predominantly involved in same-sex relationships...

Originally posted by Sir Auros
I also wouldn't mind seeing some decent romance stories...

"Whatever Love Means" by David Baddiel, "Microserfs" by Douglas Coupland and "One Fine Day In The Middle Of The Night" / "Not The End Of The World" by Christopher Brookmyre.

Originally posted by Sir Auros
Now, I see no need for robo-bosums, but faces can be feminine (without adding ridiculous robo-lipstick) and a slighter build would work.

So give us a reason for introducing 'femininity' and 'masculinity' asides from doinking and pairing off. If TF gender is a question of chestplates, build and pronouns, of what value is to the characters? If we're talking bosoms, Starscream and Ultra Magnus have extremely perky nipples, Jazz/Prowl/Bluestreak/Smokescreen wear wonderbras and Bumblebee is pregnant—the only 'gender' ascribed to those characters is the voices and pronouns ascribed to them.

Those voices were chosen because boys culturally refuse to identify with female characters, whilst girls are more willing to identify with male ones. Therefore it's a fictional convenience in the same way the Dr Who universe speaks Queen's English or Star Trek has universal translators that slip back into Klingon for dramatic emphasis. It plays to the immaturity of the audience, which would reject subtitles—and in the same way, when 'female' characters appear, they're in small numbers to avoid intimidating and alienating the target demographic.

It's a very basic, simple psychology, and it's used in a lot of science-fiction. Look at your 'team' series such as Voltron, Power Rangers, Masters of the Universe, Thundercats, Captain Power, etc. and note the practical absence of female characters.

There's a difference between reproduction and manufacture. The current continuities favor Transformers building other Transformers, but I see no reason why some sort of reproduction involving two beings couldn't be a part of another continuity. I'm not advocating gratuitous panels of hot, robot sex, and don't think anything physical would be necessary or tasteful. The concept that I had put forth previously in this forum was something like a spiritual union of sparks creating a new one. I think you're misconstruing my assertion that some form of reproduction likens them to organic life much more than constructing new Transformers as a claim that having two genders likens them more to organic life. If I haven't been clear until now, sorry. Can't think of any lifeform on this planet that actually gathers resources and builds another version of itself apart from some viruses.

Having a female gender likens them to humans, not simply organic life, and it's impossible for you to credibly make the claim that Transformers aren't meant to have recognizable, physical traits that resemble those of humans. As I said before, I don't see how it's any different to further liken them to humans by having two genders considering they already have things like noses and most of the males have stereotypically male builds.

I could write more but I'm just sick of it. You've been rubbing me the wrong way with every response you've made in this thread and unless you're autistic or just very anti-social, I don't see how it could at all be unintentional. You start off by calling my thoughts on the matter idiotic and not even bothering to counter them. You take a pedantic, self-righteous tone and still somehow (either through my inability to make myself clear, or your inability to consider opinions other than your own) fail to address my key points, opting instead to counter arguments I'm not even making and then lecture about why the characters exist as they are, which isn't even what I'm talking about. I'm not defending the fembots as they've existed nor saying they should be hammered into an existing continuity.

You advocate the elimination of the male sex in the human species yet resist the creation of a female sex in a fictional lifeform?

I see no problem with working female characters into the storyline. It certainly gives more avenue for chracter traits and interactions, provided the female characters aren't treated as stereotypes. The whole reproductive cycle of the Transformers really doesn't need to be addressed, as far as I'm concerned. There's more to male and female traits than differing genitalia anyway...

Originally posted by Sir Auros
You start off by calling my thoughts on the matter idiotic

Nope, I said the concept serves to attract idiots.

Originally posted by Sir Auros
a spiritual union of sparks creating a new one

Right, sounds perfectly credible... why would that involve gender? The only reason that springs to mind is that people don't like the concept of a cast they view as predominantly male engaging that intimately. Assuming such a process would be intimate, rather than feeding two sets of data into another processor.

There are interesting directions in which Autobot-Decepticon fusions could be taken; after all, in the comics at least the distinction is political rather than mechanical. Many late-series Decepticons display murderous pathologies and neuroses of types that might suggest 'in-breeding' of a kind. Skullcruncher, Skullgrin, Fangry, Flywheels, Breakdown, Windsweeper, Cindersaur and others all have profiles that suggest this.

Originally posted by Sir Auros
it's impossible for you to credibly make the claim that Transformers aren't meant to have recognizable, physical traits that resemble those of humans

And I haven't—I've simply explained why a few such traits were chosen as a marketing tool.

Originally posted by Sir Auros
I don't see how it's any different to further liken them to humans

I think my personal objection boils down to it becoming boring when Transformers are written as humans in metal suits with on-demand vehicles. Their physiology is a part of their collective character, and assuming human analogues for everything (down to oil for blood, leaking lubricant for tears, etc) defeats the premise of writing alien robots as your subject.

Originally posted by Sir Auros
unless you're autistic

Quite possibly. I've always considered that branch of psychology a convenience maintained in order to fit things into categories so that they can be excused or dismissed.

Originally posted by Sir Auros
fail to address my key points

I'm honestly struggling to find. That's not facetiousness; I don't see where gender enters into the equation of TF reproduction. Any TF can bud / be lit with matrix flame (comic) and any TF can program another (cartoon) or blend personality matrices with another (fan theory)...

Originally posted by Sir Auros
You advocate the elimination of the male sex in the human species yet resist the creation of a female sex in a fictional lifeform?

The former as a mildly entertaining abstract (somehow I doubt I'm ever going to find the technology in my hands)... the latter, if I'm not making myself clear, I resist the creation of a male gender in Transformers. In the same way bacteria are often referred to by female pronouns—despite reproducing asexually—Transformers defaulted to male pronouns because the audience wouldn't have bought an alternative.

Originally posted by BigMaki
There's more to male and female traits

What do you consider male or female traits?

Originally posted by BigMaki
There's more to male and female traits than differing genitalia anyway...

Eaxactly!

Some may choose to deny this and there are certainly exceptions but there are personality traits that are feminine and those that are masculine. There are enough women out there whom share enough behavioural characteristics that when you apply these characteristics to a character the majority of your audience will recognise the character as feminine. The same goes for the opposite gender.

In fact, you'd be an idiot if you denied that the majority of Transformer characters, as in all of them aside from Tracks and the "Femmebots", are recognizably masculine.

The question is, would interaction between feminine characters and masculine characters make the film more relatable and interesting to it's target audience? Possibly, even probably. Not me mind you, but I don't reflect the views of the many...

Originally posted by Hound
there are personality traits that are feminine and those that are masculine.

Or at least characteristics people are prepared to dump into one category or the other for a variety of reasons—feminine and masculine certainly aren't the same things as female and male.

Originally posted by Hound
all of them aside from Tracks and the "Femmebots", are recognizably masculine.

Equally, many people would consider Starscream feminine.

It's quite fun when people dissect fictional characters in this way, because they begin to realise to what extent they construct people in their lives according to the same stereotyping.

Originally posted by Denyer
What do you consider male or female traits?

Hah! It doesn't matter what you or I as individuals consider male or female traits.

It's more go to do with what enough of the public as a whole accepts to be feminine and masculine.

It's stereotyping and I don''t think anyone is going to argue about that and including it in a film like Transformers only perpetuates the stereotypes but it's a reality. It's also a tool that could make for a more interesting movie in the end.