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Should I start up a seperate thread instead to get this guy to justify his claims, or what?

Yes, that's exactly what you should have done.

But I mean, it was a blatant lie.

If I recall it correctly, the transformers are from 1984, but were shown around here in 1986. I was 9 years old at that time and even if Blake's 7 had been available, I probably would have preferred Transformers. That said, I consider Blake's 7 and Dr. Who to be fringe shows as they were from the UK and didn't have the international recognition any show from the USA had. So yes, I'm guilty of having missed some great shows from the UK, but does that make me a liar? I hardly think so and kindly refer you to this thread, my good man:
http://tfarchive.com/community/showthre ... adid=15803

I still maintain that even though there were some shows that had done it before, it was still remarkable for a kid show from the USA back in the days. However, in light of your evidence, I retract the implication that it was the first show to do that.

As for your disdain and my appreciation of the Transformers Generation One Cartoon: Ultimately it is a matter of taste. If you came to me and told me that you have to puke everytime you eat strawberry icecream, then that's fine. I'm still going to enjoy it nonetheless, though

Use a PM, or link the thread this is supposedly split from.

Ultimately it is a matter of taste.

Unless we're talking empirical data or recorded history such as sales figures, audience stats, textual analysis, consistency, editing, cross-marketing, etc.

Link or delete. Your choice. And please try to title threads with something related to the topic rather than call-outs...

Originally posted by Denyer
Link or delete. Your choice. And please try to title threads with something related to the topic rather than call-outs...

Since I don't see a delete option, I'm going to provide the link:
http://tfarchive.com/community/showthre ... adid=32579

As for call-outs: Gotcha, will refrain from doing that in the future.

Originally posted by optihut
Yes, that's exactly what you should have done.

Thank you for your condescendance. Must've got this place confused with a discussion board. Silly Cliffy.

If I recall it correctly, the transformers are from 1984, but were shown around here in 1986. I was 9 years old at that time and even if Blake's 7 had been available, I probably would have preferred Transformers. That said, I consider Blake's 7 and Dr. Who to be fringe shows as they were from the UK and didn't have the international recognition any show from the USA had. So yes, I'm guilty of having missed some great shows from the UK, but does that make me a liar?

Well, yes, frankly. Or at best, ignorant. So one of the world's best-selling TV shows, that so far has notched up 27 series and a UK audience alone that reached as high as 16 million, not to mention having a fan following that makes Transformers look like FLIP is a fringe show? Maybe you shouldn't make wild claims without seemingly much knowledge to back it up? [Segue - didn't Macross/Robotech kill off characters too?]. It's not really about what you prefer, and if you don't have a wide knowledge of television shows, you shouldn't make broadbrush statements like "Transformers Generation One introduced several concepts to TV shows that were unheard of and unthinkable in regular 80s television". To be honest, the reason I called you a liar was that I credited you with intelligence and knowledge. I see now that I should have called you ignorant. Accept my sincere apologies.

I hardly think so and kindly refer you to this thread, my good man:
http://tfarchive.com/community/showthre ... adid=15803

Sorry, I find it very difficult to treat anyone who pulls unresearched generalisations out of their arse with respect. Especially if they then try to hide behind an old mod request when they get called on it.

I still maintain that even though there were some shows that had done it before, it was still remarkable for a kid show from the USA back in the days. However, in light of your evidence, I retract the implication that it was the first show to do that.

And here come the qualifiers! Yes, TF was moderately ground-breaking for a 25 minute American toy commerical shown from 1984-1987, wasn't it? Considering the possibilities avaliable to the Transformers franchise [that they were robots, and things could be done to them which couldn't be done to, say, GI Joe, a possibility that the comics did take advantage of], the cartoon was actually a great big cop-out. I mean, think about who dies in TF:TM. Optimus Prime, who comes back within a year. Prowl, Ironhide, Ratchet, Windcharger, Ratchet and Brawn, who'd barely featured in Season 2. Skywarp, Thundercracker, the Insecticons and Megatron, who all get turned into new toys. With the exception of Optimus Prime, it's all done with such cynical precision it has no emotional impact. That's risible, really.

As for your disdain and my appreciation of the Transformers Generation One Cartoon: Ultimately it is a matter of taste. If you came to me and told me that you have to puke everytime you eat strawberry icecream, then that's fine. I'm still going to enjoy it nonetheless, though

Wow, thanks for that, because I'd never have worked it out. However, would you claim strawberry icecream could make you travel through time and shine your shoes? I'm all for people having opinions. I'd just rather they didn't make stuff up in an attempt to justify them. Though strawberry ice-cream is pretty amazing as strawberry flavoured ice cream goes.

Sorry, could've been clearer—I meant me deleting.

By killing off characters, making a leap to the future in the continuity of the show and actually changing things instead of always conserving the status quo Transformers Generation One introduced several concepts to TV shows that were unheard of and unthinkable in regular 80s television.

See... that, for example, isn't a matter of taste. It's simply a question of whether someone can dredge up an example or two of 80s TV in which just that happened.

You could argue more successfully that it was the first time the typical viewing audience (audience demographic: roughly 4-10 year old boys) saw characters they'd grown attached to in a long-running series die on-screen.

Much of the reason people still argue this stuff twenty years later, after all, is because it made such a formative impact. Not because the show was particularly revolutionary (except in taking advantage of the then-recent relaxations on programming directly marketing to kids.)

Stopped reading halfway through your "reply": You're obviously not interested in debate and only want to troll. I'm all out of troll-crisps and am not allowed to feed you anyway.

Yeh, the main reason it seemed so groundbreaking was that, up until a few years previously, it had been illegal [maybe the wrong term - not allowed?] in America to make a toy-hawking cartoon. It's sort of similar to saying a hardcore sex series was groundbreaking for showing hardcore sex not long after having hardcore sex on TV was legalised.

[Tom's] not actually trolling... not in the sense of posting spurious bollocks to try to get an emotional reaction, anyway.

I was 9 years old at that time

One of the benefits of adulthood is that we get to look back on stuff and see what actually happened, rather than carrying the assumptions we made then forward...

Did the series seem revolutionary? Season three brought Prime back from the dead, zombified him and killed him again. That still seems pretty revolutionary, considering the producers must have known about audience reactions to Prime's death (and changed GI Joe the Movie on the basis of it.)

Originally posted by Denyer
He's not actually trolling... not in the sense of posting spurious bollocks to try to get an emotional reaction, anyway.

No, I'm cool, I'm into this I'm just a bit fed up of the old opinion/fact confusion that seems endemic to discussion of the cartoon. I have absolutely no problem with anyone liking the original cartoon - it's basically their time their wasting, IMO. I just wish they would either say "Well, I like it because I like it", instead of making crass assumptions.

EDIT: Aye, Dark Awakening is pretty dark stuff, but again with qualifiers - "dark for a TV show". I'm pretty sure at least one Avengers storyline with a reanimated Swordsman predates it. But then, against Dark Awakening, how many idiotic storylines that go nowhere and treat the characters like automatons did we have? I mean, "Starbuck's Story" didn't make Galactica 80 worthwhile, and "Yesterday's Enterprise", groundbreaking for a network TV show as it was, doesn't change that most of TNG was a soap in space with minimal risks taken.

Originally posted by Denyer
He's not actually trolling... not in the sense of posting spurious bollocks to try to get an emotional reaction, anyway.

All right, if you think that's the case, then I'm inclined to believe you, because you've answered in a polite and calm manner so far, even when you're not agreeing with me. Since Cliffjumper was snarky and rude for no good reason, I assumed he was trolling. My apologies if that is not the case.

One of the benefits of adulthood is that we get to look back on stuff and see what actually happened, rather than carrying the assumptions we made then forward...

True, but as I've mentioned in this thread http://tfarchive.com/community/showthre ... adid=32388 I have recently watched all the transformers episodes again and it certainly didn't strike me as the complete pile of sh*t people make it out to be in the unadulterated hate thread. I listed the good points I perceive in the other thread and I stand by my opinion.

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Segue - didn't Macross/Robotech kill off characters too?

Yes, they did but with the exceptions of Roy Fokker and Ben Dixion (they died of battle related injuries and in battle respectfuly) the rest died in either a nuclear war or at in the final moments of the last episode, To The Stars, of the Robotech: Macross Saga.

Only Fokker's death had any real emotional impact for me.

Before that in the orginal Mobile Suit Gindam they killed off quite a few characters, both heroes and villians.
So it was hardly a new concept in animation in the 80's to kill a character off, Bambi's mother bit the bullet in the 1949 (or there's about).

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
No, I'm cool, I'm into this

I was talking to him... you slipped in there as I was posting...

Whoops.

Originally posted by optihut
True, but as I've mentioned in this thread http://tfarchive.com/community/showthre ... adid=32388 I have recently watched all the transformers episodes again and it certainly didn't strike me as the complete pile of sh*t people make it out to be in the unadulterated hate thread. I listed the good points I perceive in the other thread and I stand by my opinion.

Wow, so you're just running off because I've called you on something? "You were mean with your logic and knowledge, I'm going to ignore you". Have fun here, Ishin.

You read the "Unadulterated Hate" bit of the topic, right? What, did you expect lots of people going "LOL it was perfect"? Basically, if you're just going to avoid answering any of the valid points I've bought up because I haven't made them all fluffy, soft and No More Tears for you, you'd better not be expecting any respect from me, or indeed much of the board.

Oh, and I find generalisations and assumptions every reason to be rude, frankly. I've been dealing with people who make stuff up to back up their opinions for about 4 years now. I personally find it hugely insulting that some of us go to the effort of constructing an argument, while others just pull stuff out of the air.

Originally posted by optihut
I stand by my opinion.

Something stops being an opinion when presented as a statement of definition—i.e. as a fact.

I think it's definitely possible to argue TFs as being amongst programming that was revolutionary in comparison to much of what else was around during the 80s and aimed at kids, but not that this was the first time stuff had been done.

One broader example of this is folk tales from before Disney got their hands on them—historically they tend to be a lot bloodier. Child-friendly stuff came later.

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Wow, so you're just running off because I've called you on something? "You were mean with your logic and knowledge, I'm going to ignore you". Have fun here, Ishin.

If your "logic and knowledge" were presented in a reasonable way, I would have listened to you. However, if someone comes across as a rude jerk, why should I bother listening in the first place on the off chance you have something worthwhile to say?

As for having fun here - if the majority of the people in a Generation One board are just here to shout it out to the world how horrible and bad generation one is, then I doubt I'm going to have fun here. Right now I'm just seeing a one man loud minority, though.

You read the "Unadulterated Hate" bit of the topic, right?

I did and instead of posting in that thread in reply to your bile, I chose to heed the request not to and posted in the other thread. You are the one trampling on the OP's request not to post your hate tirade in the love thread.

Basically, if you're just going to avoid answering any of the valid points I've bought up because I haven't made them all fluffy, soft and No More Tears for you, you'd better not be expecting any respect from me, or indeed much of the board.

Good, because your respect is not something I intend to earn. The way you present your "valid" points certainly made you lose any respect I may have had for you. Oh and welcome to my ignore list

You mean that singing tea service wasn't historically accurate?

I don't think the forum is particularly pro or anti G1. I don't care, I'll express my opinion, and I've had no real signs from the mods and admins, or anyone that I respect [they'd be the ones who read replies, rather than running off] has raised any real issues with it. You don't like my style? Aww, I'd better change it just for you. Well, I don't like you making crass, ill-informed assumptions..

As for the "Unadulterated Hate" thread, I think you missed my point, which was that what were you expecting to find in an Unadulterated Hate thread? Lots of people being nice about the show?

Basically, I'll make it open here that I hugely disagree with the "no discussion" aspect of Torsten's Love/Hate threads. There's no point in a thread on a discussion board that forbids discussion. However, now that Torsten's asked me not to, I'll do that - not because he posted the thread in the first place, as posters simply should not be allowed to control threads they started, but because he's Torsten and I respect him.

Oh no, not the dreaded ostrich list! You can ignore me all you want, it won't change that I'm right, and that you made a poorly-informed assumption.

Originally posted by optihut
if someone comes across as a rude jerk, why should I bother listening in the first place on the off chance you have something worthwhile to say?

It tends to be less an off-chance and more a habit of having the info with which to support stuff. Can't say that I agree with him on everything, particularly the tone of some of the corrections, but I share the annoyance with people who can't be bothered to look something up before posting it as fact.

Originally posted by optihut
if the majority of the people in a Generation One board are just here to shout it out to the world how horrible and bad generation one is

Let's see... 'Generation One' includes;

Several series of a US show.
Several series of a Japanese show.
Over a hundred US comics.
Several hundred UK comics.
Japanese manga.
Seven years of toys in various countries.
New original series characters and backstory released by Takara since 1991.
Generation Two and Machine Wars, which share continuity.
A few years of Dreamwave comics.
An upcoming series from IDW.

I'd say most people here like one or more of those, regardless of what they think about a bit of animation.

Aye, you'll see some raves from me when the Love/Hate Marvel thread goes up, frankly. Though I did counter with what I like about the kids' show, and about Hasbro in toys. It's actually an insult to Generation 1 [which is by far my favourite area of Transformers] to suggest it's legacy is little more than 98 episodes of children's television. It's better than that, frankly, or I wouldn't be here, and I'd wager that'd be echoed by a fair proportion of established posters, and probably a fair degree of the newer members.

Originally posted by Denyer
It tends to be less an off-chance

In my experience, people who try to insult other people on a messageboard, rarely have something productive to share. Given that, I think it is an off-chance.

and more a habit of having the info with which to support stuff. Can't say that I agree with him on everything, particularly the tone of some of the corrections, but I share the annoyance with people who can't be bothered to look something up before posting it as fact.

Certainly. But let's take a look at the post that inspired this little pissing contest:

You've already mentioned the excellent voice acting. What's great about the show is that it stood the test of time and 20 years later it's still worth watching.

By killing off characters, making a leap to the future in the continuity of the show and actually changing things instead of always conserving the status quo Transformers Generation One introduced several concepts to TV shows that were unheard of and unthinkable in regular 80s television.

First point: Excellent voice acting. I guess that can't be really confirmed or denied. Several people chimed in, so if we were to have a vote, I believe the ones in favour would outweigh the ones against it.

Second point: The show is stil worth watching 20 years later. I have recently done that and hence I made that statement. Of course it is another issue of opinion. People who hated the show are going to hate it 20 years later as well.

Third Point: They killed off characters in the show. Technically not really correct, as all of the dead main characters were killed in the movie. If one counts the movie as being part of the series, then this is another true point.

Fourth Point: Making a leap to the future of the continuity. They did do that and even though Mr. Cliffjumper interjected in his ever so loving way that all they did was change the date and exchange characters, it is simply not true - The advance of the time to 2005 brought the EDC with it, bringing in humans as spacetravellers with laserguns and other future technology. Several of the old characters like the Combaticons and Stunticons were still in the show, albeit they should have been "just replaced".

Fifth Point: They actually changed things. This is a tricky one. Mostly, I was referring to the Return of Optimus Prime. As I mentioned in another thread, every movie making recipe suggested that Prime should sacrifice himself for the greater good, yet they brought him back. I consider that to be quite a bold move and a change. On a somewhat related note, people kept complaining that there is no development, but what about Vector Sigma then? When he was introduced, it was mentioned that it was the master computer that gave all of the transfomers - except for the dinobots, which only had basic intelligence though - life. In a later episode, Starscream needs to steal personality components for his Combaticons, as the capabilities of giving life is beyond his ability.

Sixth point: Transformers introduced several concepts to TV that were groundbreaking for 80s television. As was pointed out, other shows of that time already did that, so I agree that this point wasn't well researched. Combining the above mentioned things and having them in a kid-show is still worth noting and deserves praise.

In any case, whatever point Mr. Cliffjumper may have had, his behaviour leaves room for a lot of improvement. I am always available for a debate and for a challenge of my points, but I refuse to participate in a mudslinging event for the amusement of one poster.

Originally posted by optihut
Given that, I think it is an off-chance.

Being a bastard isn't at all incompatible with intelligence or knowledge.

Originally posted by optihut
Several people chimed in, so if we were to have a vote

When using stats, it's good practise to use the largest data set available. In this case, the opinions of the fandom since it came online. That was in 1993. Personally I've only been looking out for about six or seven years of that, but I'm sure we can find a handful of people to give us an overview of everything.

I'm questioning only specific points, not the parts of what you posted as opinion.

Originally posted by optihut
The show is stil worth watching 20 years later.

DVD sales indicate a fair number of people think so.

Originally posted by optihut
People who hated the show are going to hate it 20 years later as well.

Not necessarily. I know more about the graft involved in producing a TV show now and thus have more tolerance for mistakes than I did as a ten year old.

Originally posted by optihut
Technically not really correct, as all of the dead main characters were killed in the movie.

The movie also exists as a short run of sliced-for-TV episodes, and was broadcast as part of Season 5 in 1988-1989. (The same series of re-runs that had that annoying Tommy Kennedy character doing introductions with Powermaster Optimus Prime.)

Character deaths in childrens' TV programming weren't unheard of or unthinkable before TF:TM came along, though.

Originally posted by optihut
Making a leap to the future of the continuity.

Again, Transformers didn't make the precedent.

Both were certainly unusual story aspects for the time—neither were unthinkable or unheard of.

Originally posted by optihut
yet they brought him back. I consider that to be quite a bold move and a change.

OT; I consider it the worst move of the show, undermining the thin character progression given to Rodimus and the pathos of Prime's sacrifice in Dark Awakening.

Originally posted by optihut
people kept complaining that there is no development, but what about Vector Sigma then? When he was introduced, it was mentioned that it was the master computer that gave all of the transfomers - except for the dinobots, which only had basic intelligence though - life.

It's unclear how figuratively Megatron is speaking—and Grimlock is able to build the Technobots in Season 3, so it isn't the only device capable of creating new TF life. Then you're left with trying to tie Primacron and the primitives into the equation—suggesting that Wheeljack didn't create their personality components from scratch, nor were the Constructicons built from scratch.

There is development in the series, albeit riddled with inconsistency and retroactive continuity. The comics are the same (to a somewhat lesser extent.)

Some of this inconsistency can be attributed to production and airing orders; Rodimus leaps around in terms of characterisation during Season 3, due to this and to the writing chores being farmed out without careful editorial handling.

The surprising thing about Transformers is that there's any continuity, given the conditions all mediums of the original series were produced under.