Holocaust denier says 'No need to show remorse'

Jetfire · Post by **Jetfire** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 3:48 pm

Holocaust denier: 'No need to show remorse'

LONDON, England (AP) -- British writer David Irving returned to England the day after he was released early from an Austrian prison -- vowing to repeat views denying the Holocaust that led to his conviction.

Irving said Thursday he felt "no need any longer to show remorse" for his views on the Holocaust, for which he was sentenced to three years in prison. Vienna's highest court granted Irving's appeal and converted two-thirds of his sentence into probation on Wednesday.

Upon arriving at London's Heathrow airport, he also called for a boycott of all Austrian and German historians until laws which make Holocaust denial illegal in those countries are overturned.

Willfried Kovarnik, head of Vienna's immigration police, said Irving had been indefinitely banned from Austria and that he had spent Wednesday night in an Austrian detention center. Irving said he intended to appeal that decision.

In February, Irving was convicted under a 1992 law that applies to anyone in Austria who denies, plays down, approves or tries to excuse the Nazi genocide or other Nazi crimes against humanity. The law calls for a prison term of up to 10 years.

During his one-day trial earlier this year, Irving pleaded guilty to the charge of denying the Holocaust.

Both the defense and the prosecution appealed the sentence. In September, Austria's Supreme Court upheld Irving's conviction.
He said he spent his time in prison writing his memoirs.

During his imprisonment, he said that he and his seriously ill wife, Bente Hogh, lost their Central London home. He said he would return to temporary accommodation in Central London and begin to rebuild his life.

He said he had been targeted by a "secret society of judges" in Britain.
"They haven't succeeded," he said. "My enemies are deeply shocked that I'm out. They thought I would die in prison."

Irving had been in custody since his November 2005 arrest on charges stemming from two speeches he gave in Austria in 1989 for which he was accused of denying the Nazis' extermination of 6 million Jews.

He has contended that most of those who died at concentration camps like Auschwitz succumbed to diseases such as typhus rather than execution.

Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe...rss_topstories

Dispite the thousands of first hand accounts from different camps, the physical evidence, documents from that meeting where it was agreed I believe his whole arguement is based on the fact he hasn't seen several peices of paper with the right stamp, ignoring the fact it was Nazi policy to burn all their files before the allies invaded he still insistes it didn't happen and feels it's the countries.

Sometimes the world makes me sad

There is nobody quite as stupid (or as dangerous) as an educated idiot.

He said he had been targeted by a "secret society of judges" in Britain.

"They haven't succeeded," he said. "My enemies are deeply shocked that I'm out. They thought I would die in prison."

He comes across as rather paranoid too considering Britain has no such laws and hasn't done anything to him on his views.

RID Scourge · Post by **RID Scourge** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 4:24 pm

He's clearly a nut. I never actually got the point in denying the holocaust. It really doesn't make things any better by pretending it didn't happen.

I also don't see a logical explaination as to why anyone would make up something so horrible, which leads me to believe that Holocaust deniers are clearly out of their mind. I mean, I really haven't taken the time to actually sift through their theories, but I figure that the less attention I give them, the better.

Post by **Denyer** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 6:04 pm

He's a deluded scumbag... on the other hand --

a 1992 law that applies to anyone in Austria who denies, plays down, approves or tries to excuse the Nazi genocide or other Nazi crimes against humanity

-- that isn't excusable in a civilised society either. It's far over the line of restraining those who call for violence, imprisonment, exile etc. of minorities on bigoted grounds, which is a more workable definition of hate speech.

This might actually net him sympathy with some people, which is counter-productive.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 7:36 pm

Originally posted by Denyer

This might actually net him sympathy with some people, which is counter-productive.

Didn't he get banned, though?

Clogs · Post by **Clogs** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 12:11 am

History only happens if someone records it or refutes it. There are lots of records about the Holocaust and a few surviving propaganda ones denying it. All have value in the historical sense, but only in context. He has a right to his views, of course, but he has jumped on a soapbox only to gain a kind of immortality through notoriety plus, perhaps, kudos from equally awful people. I do wish the press wouldn't publicise this stuff, but it's obvious they will.

Irving is deluded and, if one regards his views in the more wider socio-political context, dangerous.

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:09 pm

On the subject of genocide...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/rwanda/story/ ... 96,00.html

At the time, the "Africa cell" was headed by Mitterrand's son, Jean-Christophe, a close friend of the Habyarimanas. He later said that there could not have been a genocide because "Africans are not that organised"

Awesome argument.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 3:10 pm

I can't be the only one thinking of that episode of BrassEye, can I?

Axe · Post by **Axe** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 7:44 pm

On the subject of Denial, and not the subject of The Holocaust:

Kids today have a right to deny the Pythagorian theorem. They would have to argue:

According to General Relativity and astronomy, some portions of space do not conform with Euclidean geometry. They would have to point to a preferred geometry (with it's own definition of distance and angle). It's as though Physics has come to popularize dialects in (the language called) geometry, and one could argue it's wrong to strictly impose the standard dielect, in a general course on geometry.

Sixswitch · Post by **Sixswitch** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:49 pm

Originally posted by Axe
On the subject of Denial, and not the subject of The Holocaust:

Kids today have a right to deny the Pythagorian theorem. They would have to argue:

What in the name of blue hell are you drivelling on about?

-Ss

StoneCold Skywarp · Post by **StoneCold Skywarp** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:00 pm

Originally posted by Sixswitch
What in the name of blue hell are you drivelling on about?

-Ss

Do you actually, truly, really, honestly, give a flying **** what he's talking about?

Or are you just trying to wind the poor c**t up as I expect you are?

Sixswitch · Post by **Sixswitch** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:04 pm

Originally posted by StoneCold Skywarp
Do you actually, truly, really, honestly, give a flying **** what he's talking about?

I'm just really, really curious as to why he posted that in this topic.

-Ss

StoneCold Skywarp · Post by **StoneCold Skywarp** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:15 pm

Originally posted by Sixswitch
I'm just really, really curious as to why he posted that in this topic.

-Ss

I could of course sum that up in 4 words or less, but we'll see what he comes up with first.

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:34 pm

Originally posted by Sixswitch
I'm just really, really curious as to why he posted that in this topic.

-Ss

Tangential off-topicness. It's the lifeblood of the entire board, you know that.

Genocide --> Denial of Genocide --> Denial --> Denial of Mathematically Accepted Fact As There's Already a Topic Related to Denial and It Means we Don't Get a New One --> Trig.

It's like a circle. A circle of life. I'm holding a baby lion aloft. SUE ME, DISNEY! SUE ME TO HELL!

Now we wait for Denyer to slap me for inconsistency in my capitalisation.

Post by **Denyer** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:44 pm

Originally posted by Sixswitch
What in the name of blue hell are you drivelling on about?

Justify your existence, while we're contemplating drivel...

We don't add disclaimers when teaching war history, that "some people think these millions of concentration camp victims died of unsanitary conditions rather than poison gassing" just as we don't add disclaimers when teaching pythag that the geometry it assumes is only an approximation of physical space, or when teaching Kemetian history that "some people think the dates are all wrong, that the Earth is only a few thousand years old and we were all willed into being by a magic space goat." They're tenuous theories or broad scopes which aren't useful or of help to most students.

Whilst it's reasonable not to throw things out of or have to reword things in a curriculum because of special interest groups and rare exceptions, it's a step far beyond that to criminalise delusions when they aren't causing or inciting violence.

Originally posted by Brendocon
It's like a circle. A circle of life. I'm holding a baby lion aloft.

Yes. Yes you are.

Galvatron91 · Post by **Galvatron91** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:49 pm

I think this guy would be quite popular in Iran.

This is where we need an Addl post, because I have a hard time understanding the logic in having legislation to censor the nutbags from spewing their garbage. I would prefer to have these types of lunatics out there where we can engage them, berate them and make fun of them.

As for the denial of the Holocaust, I place them in the same camp of troglodytes who make such idiotic statements as "that sort of thing could never happen in the US," while completely ignoring the sustained efforts of extermination practiced against the American Indian populations or the whole issue of slavery.

Post by **Denyer** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:58 pm

Originally posted by Galvatron91
I have a hard time understanding the logic in having legislation to censor the nutbags from spewing their garbage. I would prefer to have these types of lunatics out there where we can engage them, berate them and make fun of them.

The only problem I can see it helping is where an idea already has traction and authorities are trying to suppress it...

eg, There are enough Creationist nutters to get "this volcano is very young!" books into national park shops, or stickers into science textbooks.

Some good ones here -- http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cpurri ... sclaimers/

Arguably when the legislation was passed there may have been enough active neo-nazi groups to 'require' a straightforward statute that could be used to chill recruitment.

I think I prefer the US method, or did until the govt passed its own "no right to free assembly, even if peaceful" and "secret trial" laws under the auspices of the Patriot Act, taking several of the same actions as National Socialists in the 1930s.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 11:56 pm

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
I can't be the only one thinking of that episode of BrassEye, can I?

I can, it would seem.

Post by **Clay** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:01 am

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Didn't he get banned, though?

That was the first person I thought of as well.

slartibartfast · Post by **slartibartfast** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:27 am

Originally posted by rubicon
Yeah. Makes one think of the duality between man and “beast” (I use the term beast loosely); which is truly more “advanced” – or educated? Can’t help but want to reevaluate the pecking order of things sometimes.

well, you could argue that criticising the social structure that sets the boundries between man and beast is a sign in itself that what we consider just is not set. i imagine that my opinion of the holocaust would be totally different if the nazis had won.

irving is a racist fascist who believes that hitler & co. were on the right track, even if he has to distort history to justify his ideology.

I do think that his imprisonment was wrong in the first place though, and that if his views appeal to other people and serve as arguments for extreme right-wing parties then it means that we really haven't accomplished very much these last 60 years. Considering him a danger to society is almost insulting... that is, unless i severely over-estimate our capacity for free thought.

i don't suppose anyone's read lord horror by any chance ?

... poo, i've lost track ... old telegraph article

Axe · Post by **Axe** » Fri Jan 12, 2007 1:13 pm

You guys are swell, all of ya. If Google is our friend, then it's reasonable to let Wikipedia be our master (looking forward to looking up Kemetian history).

Originally posted by Denyer
[...] eg, There are enough Creationist nutters to get "this volcano is very young!" books into national park shops, or stickers into science textbooks.

That was good humor, honestly.

I have some wishful thoughts (not structured like a dream), about the works of those that would truly deserve to occupy the third spot in the sequence: Galileo/Newton, Darwin/Einstein. The main wish is that they would propound "relativity of evolution/devolution" (if observers see a planet of ants at one date and a planet of apes at another, what is the order of the dates). I think my talk in Jinn attack is a bit relavant (except for the period of magic shi*).

edit: maybe I should have read Wikipedia before posting. (still has to read)

edit 2: Wiki article on Kemet read, but space goat sounds both funny and interesting.

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