TFARCHIVE FORUMS

So tell me, do you think DC's cartoon universe is superior to their comic book one?

Let's look at it, it's got

Batman: TAS
Superman: TAS
Static Shock (*sigh*)
Justice League
Teen Titans

Thanks to Teen Titans, Batman Beyond and The Zeta Project are now an "alternate future" (due to the whole Tim Drake/Joke thing apparantly not happening now). Which is fine by me. I loved Batman Beyond, it was an excellent show (same can't be said for Zeta Project). However, I didn't like knowing the fates of so many of my favorite characters. Joker, Batman, Batgirl, Robin, Bane, Mr. Freeze...I didn't like having their futures set in stone. There's nothing wrong with it being an alternate future, Dark Knight Returns is an alternate future and that's one of the greatest Batman stories ever written.

That being said, I could do without Static Shock and Teen Titans. Static Shock was just garbage, but Teen Titans at least had potential before they decided to appeal to the worst of the fanboys, the otakus. Static Shock might've caught my interest had it been based on an established DC character. Like maybe Black Lightning/Vulcan. They've got close to the same powers, anyway, and they're both...well, black (hey, *I* didn't make up that name. We all know it was Aquaman's idea. He originally wanted to be called "Super Volt" ).

What I like about DC's cartoon universe is that in the big three (Batman, Superman and Justice League) the stories are extremely well written and aimmed at an intelligent audience. It's smart without getting confusing, like the DC comic universe. The cartoon universe has a tendancy to combine two or more of the same character.

The Flash looks like a combo of Barry Allen and Wally West. He was shown remembering Barry Allen's origin yet he has Wally West's attitude.

The current Robin was a combination of Jason Todd and Tim Drake. He has an origin similar to Jason Todd's (punk living off the street that was taken in by Batman) but Tim Drake's name and personality. He also seems to have been combined a bit with Dick Grayson in Teen Titans, in that he and Starfire are an item.

Clayface got the best of the bunch. There were 6 of em in the comic, they just took the two most important ones, Basil Karlow and Matt Hagen, and combined them (Basil Karlow's acting career with Matt Hagen's name and powers). Hell, it even rubbed off in the comic and they turned Karlow into the Ultimate Clayface. A good idea's a good idea.

Hal Jordan and Kyle Raner got combined for Green Lantern. He looks like Hal Jordan and kinda shares his origin, but his name is Kyle Raner and he's still an artist. Too bad they never used him again in exchange for Jon Stewart.

That's all the combos I can think of. I can't say I don't like any of them. It doesn't dillute the character any, just makes them less confusing, and sometimes, much more interesting (Clayface in particular). It also avoids the problem of character deaths such as Jason Todd, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen etc.

I guess the only few problems with the cartoon universe is that, while aimmed at a much more mature audience, it's still saturday morning stuff and can't get too intense. Hence we got the Joker's origin from the first movie (they even called him Jack Napier a couple times) rather than anything remotely close to the Killing Joke. The Death of Superman adaptation had to altered quite a bit. It was a great couple episodes, don't get me wrong, but not nearly as violent a "death" as in the comics. Hell, Doomsday wasn't even involved. The Toyman "killed" him. Then there was the Bane episode of Batman. He held him over his knee, said "I will break you!" and at the last minute Batman saved himself by messing with Bane's venom-feed. Damn. That would've been hardcore.

I'll give them points for creativity, though. When they have to work around an adult theme from the comics they do it quite well. Such as the Mad Hatter's origin. In the comics he's a pedophile with a thing for little girls. Obviously they couldn't put that in the cartoon so they made him have an obsession with a coworker and then snap when she rejected him. Two-Face's origin wasn't as gruesome, but was still just as violent.

I remember Marvel had a decent cartoon universe going back in the 90's. Iron Man, Fantastic Four, X-Men and Spider-Man all existed together and crossed over quite a bit. I remember a huge crossover toward the end of the Spider-Man series that encompassed all four tv shows. It's a shame they dropped the entire universe, though. Now X-Men Evolution is all they've got, and I have a love/hate relationship with that show. Marvel may make the best movies, but DC makes the best cartoons.

Anyway, I just felt like talking about the cartoon universe.

I love the DC animated universe. I thought it was pretty much excepted now that TT wasn't in the same universe? And for Batman Beyond setting things in stone, the JL Unlimited season finale has a crossover of the two series. So Batman Beyond future may no longer exist. I personally thought the last two seasons of Static Shock were really good.

Overall I think DC animated is better, because less confusion, I don't need to know about Crisis on Infinte Earth's, what happened to the other Green Lantern's or Flash. Its pretty straight foward, and its nice to hav continuity.

I haven't been able to watch much of the Unlimited series lately since I work EVERY Saturday night.

The only one I've seen so far starred Hawk and Dove, two guys I'd never heard of and don't particularly like so far.

So tell me what happened, please!

Also, in regards to Teen Titans, it seems they're planning a TT/JL crossover but nothing's definate yet. I read it in Wizard when they were covering the upcoming JL Unlimited series. Aside from Robin and mentions of certain locales in the DC universe, there hasn't been much reference to anything outside their own series. I know Speedy was in an episode, has he appeared in Unlimited yet? How 'bout Aqualad? *shudder*

Originally posted by DrSpengler
I haven't been able to watch much of the Unlimited series lately since I work EVERY Saturday night.

The only one I've seen so far starred Hawk and Dove, two guys I'd never heard of and don't particularly like so far.

So tell me what happened, please!

Also, in regards to Teen Titans, it seems they're planning a TT/JL crossover but nothing's definate yet. I read it in Wizard when they were covering the upcoming JL Unlimited series. Aside from Robin and mentions of certain locales in the DC universe, there hasn't been much reference to anything outside their own series. I know Speedy was in an episode, has he appeared in Unlimited yet? How 'bout Aqualad? *shudder*

Thats odd, from what i've heard is the opposite, the producers of both shows have said they think it would be best to leave the to series sepreate.


Spoilers for JLU

Its been better than I thought, not as good as the old JL hour long eps though. So far the Batman and Wonder Woman romance is developing a lot, I think the majorty of eps is about them. Kids Stuff is pretty good ep, I love baby ethrigan. Zatanna appeared, in an eps where Batman must sing to save Wonder Woman. The first ep was alright. Last week's ep was the best though. Featuring the Question, Green Arrow and Super Girl. The Question is pretty funny, lots of theroies(he even sings well he's breaking into a lab). In the ep we get lots of references to the old supes cartoon. As for future eps it looks good. This season one episode "The Return" features 25 heroes, and one with Booster Gold is supposed to be funny. In the season finale(which is a two parter, part one is set in the past, and part 2 Batman, WW and GL get sent to future gotham), they meet Static Shock, Batman Beyond and rumors have been that we'll get JL of the future, Injustice Gang of the future and some stuff about return of the Joker. As for season two all thats been said is that there will be a Birds of Prey ep with Green Arrow, Black Canary, The Question and Huntress. There is a good chance for two more seasons, and that'll end the DC animated universe. Let me see if I can find a site with more info.

Green Lantern is Jon Stewart who is a nobody! Justice League sucks in my opinion. A fair anaylsis would be to compare the Marvel toons against that of DC. I believe DC would come out looking better.

Justice League has it's moments. It started out poorly and they kept rerunning the same episodes over and over again (that War World one). But it got much better.

I haven't been able to check out Unlimited yet. I saw one episode and didn't like it, but I won't pass judgement until I see more.

Jon Stewart is a nobody, and it's obvious that they threw him in their over Kyle (who was previously established) for the purpose of political correctness (can't have a show with just a bunch of crackers running around, nosiree). He's a decent enough character, though I'd have prefered to see Kyle.

DC universe rocks! On a personal note, I really liked Justice League. The only problem I had with it was that its version of the Leagon of Doom stunk. The new Justice League Unlimited just confuses me. They really just focus it on Green Arrow and SuperGirl. I miss Bats and the Flash.

Originally posted by SoundCrush
DC universe rocks! On a personal note, I really liked Justice League. The only problem I had with it was that its version of the Leagon of Doom stunk. The new Justice League Unlimited just confuses me. They really just focus it on Green Arrow and SuperGirl. I miss Bats and the Flash.

Green Arrow and Supergirl have only been in two eps. While Batman and Wonder Woman appear almost in every ep.The first season of Justice League wasn't that good, but the second season is great. If you haven't seen Starcrossed eps yet, its a must see IMO. As for John, I like him I wouldn't be surprised if we saw Kyle later on. He's been mentioned once already(apparently still be trained).

Ah, so they did acknowledge that Kyle still existed. Good. It'd be cool to see him again.

Personally, I'd like to see some old JSAers show up, like Alan Scott, Jay Garrick and Wildcat. It'd be great to see Shazam, too.

Wildcat is apart of the new Justice League line up, so he might and might actually talk in this weekend's ep. The rest haven't appeared and doesn't look like they will. Wally appears to be the only flash, but there was a story that was kind of had altenrate version of them

Originally posted by Transfannabeel
Wildcat is apart of the new Justice League line up, so he might and might actually talk in this weekend's ep. The rest haven't appeared and doesn't look like they will. Wally appears to be the only flash, but there was a story that was kind of had altenrate version of them

I saw that one. But it also had an alternate version of Wildcat (Catman) whom you say appeared in Unlimited.

I don't think it's too out of the question for them to show up. They were superheroes back during WWII so it would make sense for them to be currently retired. A story where they come out of retirement to fight alongside the JLA would be great.

As far as Wally goes, he's a combined with Barry but not Jay. In the comics Barry was kept pretty distant from Jay in appearance and origin. It wouldn't be too out of the question to bring Jay in. Alan Scott, too. We've already seen 2 of the 5 Earthling GLs (3, if you consider that they combined Hal with Kyle) so I'd say seeing Alan isn't too unlikely. We may never see Guy Gardner, though. Which is fine by me.

IMHO.

Both companies had some decent stuff and some poop come out the pipelines.

I loved the old X-Men cartoon *the 90's one*, very close to the comic and just overall cool.

X-Men Evolutions was ok but just at times I was like meh.

The old Batman stuff ruled along with Superman *the Lobo episode was a classic*.

JL and JLU are not too bad.

I like Teen Titans damnit. Or maybe it's just I think Raven is cool.

Anyone other than me remember the late 80's maybe early 90's version of Superman they used to show on CBS Saturday mornings? That was not too bad either from what I can remember of it.

And 6 words. Spider Man and His Amazing Friends mofo

You might be thinking of the 80's Superfriends series, the Legendary Super Powers Team. It was made to pimp the DC Super Powers toyline.

It wasn't all bad, to be honest. The previous Superfriends shows were effectively crap that hasn't aged well at all (Challenge of the Superfriends had it's moments, though). The Super Powers Team was actually pretty cool at times. They put Darkseid in the spotlight as the lead badguy, and though he was more like Dr. Claw than an intergalactic warlord, he was a pretty cool villain.

I still don't understand why they put so much focus on Firestorm. That guy was a total lame-o.

Originally posted by DrSpengler


Jon Stewart is a nobody, and it's obvious that they threw him in their over Kyle (who was previously established) for the purpose of political correctness (can't have a show with just a bunch of crackers running around, nosiree). He's a decent enough character, though I'd have prefered to see Kyle.

Actually that could only ever be part of the arguement.

Clearly as Flash wasn't Barry then Gl wasn't going to be Jordan. As they went for a 'rooky' Flash (early Wally West) who was street wise that meant Kyle as a character wasn't needed.
between John Stwert and and guy Gardner. Jon made sense even though he was a poor comic Gl.

However the cartoon has given him a much more intresting character and he is far more prominite in the JL cartoon when what Kyle or Guy would be. many eps have been centred around john as GL.

Remember writers much prefer characters they can do something with.Jon was both different and useable as a fairly open character. Paul Dini is a great character writer and made Batman the cartoon the comic always wanted Batman to be. Hence why harley Quinn became such a big character. Writers prefer the new or undefined or different to write their stories.

Yeah, I see the need to replace Kyle with Jon. Flash was the comic relief since they went with the Barry origin but hte Wally persona. Two n00bs would've been too many.

I will say that Jon has been a much more interesting character in the cartoon than he ever was in the comics. I especially liked him in the 3rd Injustice Gang episode (can't they just go with Legion of Doom, please!?), the one with Gorilla Grodd and Killer Frost. He's very level-headed but at the same time aggressive and commanding. He fits in well enough.

But then I think about the JLA comic. It had both Kyle, Wally and Plastic Man on board at the same time and Grant Morrison managed to work the stories out fine with 3 comic-relief characters. Well, Wally was more experienced by that time in the comic and was less of a n00b and Kyle was portrayed as more timid than comical (though he cracked jokes often enough).

I think they could have made it work in the cartoon.

Kyle lives! woot! Alright so Kyle made an appearance in today's ep "The Return" Which stars Atom, Lex Luthor and Amazo(and guest appearances of about 24 other characters).


Spoilers for the Return:




I missed the first couple of min, but from what I've heard, it starts out with John Stewart talking to the Guardins, and trying to temporarily switch places with Kyle. But then Oa gets blown up by Amazo, who apparently evolved since the last time he was on Earth. So the JL figures out he's after Lex and send squads to defend earth. The Atom helps Lex build this ray to stop Amazo. In the mean time we see the likes of Steel, Supergirl, Flash, Red Tornado(who looks like it, gets killed by Amazo), and a whole lot more that don't talk. While After Amazo gets to Luthor, Atom shrinks them into the microverse. And Amazo, (who's a giant in it) asks Luthor what his meaning of life is. Back in Space the GL corps. finds the JL and lead by Kyle and John they go to find Amazo. Dr. Fate stops them from busting Amazo's head open, and tells Amazo that he'll help him find his purpose. Then Amazo reveals that he just transported Oa to a different dimenson "because it was in my way". While at the end they show Amazo being brought back to Fate's house, and guess who else we see right before it ends, Hawkgirl! Probably the best ep so far.

Awesome!

I should be able to see it next saturday. I found out they play the previous week's episode at 1pm, which is a few hours before I go to work. So I finally got to see an Unlimited episode.

Unfortunately, it was a comedy relief episode starring the uselss Booster Gold. However, they acknowledged the fact that he was a loser and made fun of his quite a bit. The episode was hilarious, to be honest (though I was more in the mood for action). I got to see Elongated Man, but I wanted to see Plastic Man (they mentioned him, though).

I guess the quality of the episode depends on what character they're spotlighting. It was still a funy episode. "Thank you, Green Lantern!" "Gah!"

Personally, I liked all of the new (90's and onward) DC universe cartoon shows from Batman: The Animated Series all the way to Teen Titans (minus that theme song) and Justice League Unlimited. If I had to rank them, I would do so as follows:

1. Batman: The Animated Series
2. Justice League
3. Teen Titans (for the shear comedy factor)
4. Static Shock
5. Justice League Unlimited
6. Batman Beyond/Superman: The Animated Series
8. Zeta Project

I loved the original Batman: TAS. Good plots, great characters, and a new style I never saw before. There wasn't a single character on there that I didn't like. Mad Hatter, Scarecrow, Catwoman, Batgirl, both Robins, and etc. I really liked how they portrayed Batman as the brooding detective.

I liked the original Justice League show. My faves were Green Lantern, Hawkgirl, J'ohnn J'onzz (sp?), Batman, and The Flash.

-I liked the Green Lantern as John Stewart. I have no idea what he was like in the comics and I really don't care. I think he makes a great GL in the cartoon.
-Hawkgirl was also cool with her electric morning star/mace and her attitude in general. Her relationship with GL was one of the more interesting parts of the show.
-The Flash was pretty funny at times though I wish he was a bit smarter than they portray him to be.
-Martian Manhunter was also pretty good since he was the calm and rational type that had some really cool powers.
-Batman is just awesome with everything he did in the show.
-I didn't care much for Wonder Woman at the start since she was blah, but as the series progressed, she did grow on me.
-I don't really care much for Superman since he's wimp without his powers as was proven a couple times when he lost them.

I also liked some of the villians. My favorite would have to be Solomon Grundy, the simple-minded oaf that died. I don't know why he appealed to me so much, maybe because the Shade and Copperhead didn't catch my attention and he was the only one left or what it was, but I liked him. I thought his last appearance was by far the best since it showed his origin, more of his personality, and ultimately his death. Afterwards, I looked him up on the internet in the DC Universe and found out the comic version died many times and was resurrected. I hope they do the same soon in JLA Unlimited.

I love the Teen Titans but didn't rank them as high because the plots don't tend to be as good as the other two. They're still good but not as good. I love them for the shear comedy factor. Cyclops is hilarious. Raven has her moments and Beast Boy once in a blue moon since he's a bit annoying at times. I don't know how the show appeals to these "otaku" characters and I really don't care. I think it's funny since it shows the more playful side of the artists and writers compared to Batman: TAS, JLA, and JLA: Unlimited. Their best story thus far has got to be the Terra series although I think it was really rushed. I would have liked to see maybe four or five more episodes about her really developing the Titans' trust while secretly betraying them.

I liked Static for the fact that he was the laid back superhero and came from a middle-class family. He didn't start off with a ton of gadgets like Batman. His mode of transportation for awhile was a garbage can lid until he got that retractable disc. He tended to show resourcefulness a lot since he only had electricity to work with and frequently ran out of juice, thus he needed to find a way to recharge himself. He also had a sidekick that was really good and quite useful. Richie (later Gear) started off as a normal kid then later found out he was a Bang Baby with super intellect and could build next to anything. He actually had a great personality and the writers actually did things with him. I would say the same of Robin with Bats but on a smaller scale. His villians weren't as good as Bat's villians but Rubberman was really developing there for awhile until he turned superhero. There were a couple other notables but nothing substantial.

I also liked the show since it had the most crossovers and guest appearances than any other DC show. They had stars like Yao Ming, Shaq, a Backstreet Boy, and a rapper (name escapes me at the moment). He also had crossovers from Batman, Batman Beyond, JLA (John Stewart GL and I think Johnn J'onzz and Hawkgirl), and I think the Zeta Project as well. They even foreshadowed the coming of Teen Titans in one episode where Static asked where Robin was and Batman replied with, "he's with the Titans." The response of "who?" that followed really set the stage.

I also really like Justice League Unlimited.

-The Batman/Wonder Woman relationship is most interesting and I really didn't mind Batman singing to save Wonder Woman from Circe. After seeing such a serious Batman all these years from TAS to now, I thought it was high time to see him do something a little different.
-I like how they are developing Supergirl into a real loose cannon/badass and I would love to see her beat the crap out of Superman. I only saw Green Arrow in the first episode because I missed the Question/Supergirl/GA episode, but from what I saw, he's pretty cool. I just wish DC would stop using that boxing glove on an arrow crap (Speedy in TT and now GA), since that just looks awful.
-I really liked the Hawk and Dove episode since it showed two characters arguing over things like politics, have completely different fighting styles (Hawk being more brash while Dove is more passive). Out of all the new characters introduced, I would rank them as #2 along with Supergirl.
-Booster Gold's episode wasn't as good, but still watchable. I personally thought it was more drawn out than anything else.
-The episode with the omnipotent android was also pretty good since it showed a reformed Lex Luthor, The Atom, Supergirl trying to fight the android head on and seeing the aftermath of that, and the return of Hawkgirl (minus the ugly costume and in street clothes).

I personally can't wait to see where this series is going. I would have ranked this show higher, but it just started, so I'm sure it will climb my personal rankings as it progresses.

Batman Beyond was really good but I wasn't as impressed because most of the villians just weren't dastardly enough. He really didn't have a supervillian that could compare with the original Batman's foes. I missed the return of the Joker so I've got to see how that turned out. I liked how Terry McGuinness became the new Batman breaking into the crime-fighting business. He was green, he made mistakes, and really relied on the aged Bruce Wayne for awhile there. But I often wondered how he would have faired if he just had the utility belt and normal batarangs. I know he had to do this once while fighting his suit, but it really didn't answer my question.

Superman: The Animated Series was alright but I really didn't care much for Superman himself. He just wasn't very impressive to say the least. About 70% of the time, he was getting pummeled and then somehow won through a miracle of fate (aka the writers). I did like how they used that series to really begin introducing other superheroes like the Kyle Raynor version of GL and The Flash and how they measured up to Superman. He had some good villians but I always thought the villians should have killed Supes since he was getting his arse kicked all over the place.

The Zeta Project was by far the worst of the bunch. The show had some direction and a bit of plot but it lacked personality. Zeta was...well...Zeta and Rose really didn't develop a whole lot. The villians/secret agents were idiots. The girl secret agent was alright but the Jimmy Olson wannabe was terrible and his boss wasn't much better. The only bright spots occurred when Batman (Terry McGuinness) made a guest appearance or two.

Originally posted by Civ
Batman Beyond was really good but I wasn't as impressed because most of the villians just weren't dastardly enough. He really didn't have a supervillian that could compare with the original Batman's foes. I missed the return of the Joker so I've got to see how that turned out. I liked how Terry McGuinness became the new Batman breaking into the crime-fighting business. He was green, he made mistakes, and really relied on the aged Bruce Wayne for awhile there. But I often wondered how he would have faired if he just had the utility belt and normal batarangs. I know he had to do this once while fighting his suit, but it really didn't answer my question.

You need to pick up Return of the Joker first thing tommorrow morning. It is simply incredible to be frank. Just make sure you grab the uncut version. Very hardcore.

Personally, I thought Batman Beyond had a decent rogues gallery. There were a few I thought were better than others. Spellbinder was really cool and Blight was probably the most well-developed villain of the bunch. Shriek falls somewhere in the middle, his power and method of using it was inspired. Inque is probably the bottom of the barrel. They used her 4 or 5 times, it just got old. And all in all she was just a female Clayface.

All in all there really isn't much about Beyond I didn't like other than the "this is the fate of every character"-thing. But they remedied that by sticking it in an alternate continuity. So in the end it was a very fun show.

Teen Titans I just can't bring myself to enjoy. It seems like wasted potential, as the current comic series is so good. I know the show is meant to be a comedy, but I'd much rather have had a serious action cartoon. And not being a big anime fan (especially not of the silly facial-expression over-reacting type), I have a hard time sitting through an episode. I did manage to see the episodes with Aqualad and Speedy. I sat through those just because they were introducing some DC characters I was already familiar with.

The other big problem I have with Teen Titans is that characters in that show don't seem to be showing up in JLA. The last time I saw Robin was a brief cameo at Superman's funeral in the Death of Superman episode. He had no lines, appeared out of costume and only for a few seconds. And I have my doubts we'll be seeing any of the other Teen Titans in the show, even the side kicks that should rightfully be beside their mentors (like Speedy). I also don't get why a teenager like Supergirl is allowed on the JLA but all the other teen sidekicks are thrown into the Titans.

Also the kid-oriented nature of the show meant for a few character changes I don't really approve of. Starfire is now an airhead rather than a rash, battle-savvy warrior. They can't even call Salde "Deathstroke" because the name is too violent for children's programming. And you just know we're never going to see an episode about Speedy's heroine addiction.

Oh crap. I forgot all about Blight. Yes, that would be Batman Beyond's mainstay villian comparable to the original Batman's Joker.

As far as the distinctions between Teen Titan's comic and television show. I never knew the Teen Titan's existed until Batman mentioned them in Static Shock. Once the series came out, then I looked them up on the internet. I've never read a single comic book of the Titans, so I didn't know Starfire was a battle savvy warrior, Speedy had a heroin addiction, and Slade was known as Deathstroke. I just took all of them as separate characters. I knew they must have existed previously in the DC Universe, but I didn't really care. I think the television incarnations are good as they are.

As far as the Titans not showing up in JLA. While I would like to see it, that really doesn't bother me too much.