predestination

starlord · Post by **starlord** » Sat May 03, 2008 4:27 am

What are your views on this subject? If a woman wanted to abort her child, it would be considered ordain by God and if she didn't, it would still be ordain God to happen. There is no freedom of choice.

Ackula · Post by **Ackula** » Sat May 03, 2008 4:54 am

First a thread about Raksha and now this. Are you trying to stir shit up or what? I don't think you will get very far with this thread, especially using the example you are using. Its actually so tasteless that I'm not even going to indulge in it.

Sir Auros · Post by **Sir Auros** » Sat May 03, 2008 5:31 am

If you believe in God, yeah, it's hard to believe in freedom of choice, or it seems hard to do so without contradicting yourself. People seem to want to believe they have freedom of choice, but then they'll say that it's all up to their invisible man.

Ostentatious · Post by **Ostentatious** » Sat May 03, 2008 5:50 am

Anyone who puts their life in Griffin's hands is a moron. That's right, a talkin' to you Quartermain!

Blaster · Post by **Blaster** » Sat May 03, 2008 6:36 am

Kali wrote:First a thread about Raksha and now this. Are you trying to stir shit up or what? I don't think you will get very far with this thread, especially using the example you are using. Its actually so tasteless that I'm not even going to indulge in it.

He's not smart enough for the type of thought you're implying.

Post by **inflatable dalek** » Sat May 03, 2008 7:35 am

I am God. Repent ye sinners.

Post by **Denyer** » Sat May 03, 2008 3:32 pm

starlord wrote:If a woman wanted to abort her child, it would be considered ordain by God and if she didn't, it would still be ordain God to happen. There is no freedom of choice.

The way it goes in most Christian mythology, people have the choice to willingly embrace a divinity that is all-knowing, loving, merciful, etc. -- otherwise it turns into a vengeful bastard and weighs finite transgressions against an infinity of ostracism at best and torture at worst.

It's not particularly hard to see why lions used to be a preferred means of diplomacy when dealing with those who espoused the concept.

Halfshell · Post by **Halfshell** » Sat May 03, 2008 3:42 pm

Aardvark · Post by **Aardvark** » Sat May 03, 2008 3:51 pm

inflatable dalek wrote:I am God. Repent ye sinners.

So should all the atheists on the board put you on the ignore list, then?

Post by **Clay** » Sat May 03, 2008 3:58 pm

Calvinists believe so. Not sure how popular that sect is today...

It is an interesting questions for christians: if god knows everything that will ever happen, can you have free will? Even if you have free will and can function autonomously, if god knows everything that will be, then what's the difference?

This is of course locating the question in a judeo-christian context. It's perhaps less murky for people that believe in polytheism, like the ancient greeks did, wherein the gods are too busy fighting amongst themselves to predict everything that will ever happen.

Post by **Denyer** » Sat May 03, 2008 4:06 pm

Mmm. It's one of the problems monotheistic faiths bring on themselves; there's one source for all evil, including creating snakes/devils/etc. When you know what's going to happen if you do and then, say, dump a couple of innocents in a garden with the snake in question.

Clay wrote:Calvinists believe so. Not sure how popular that sect is today...

Good old James Hogg...

Ackula · Post by **Ackula** » Sat May 03, 2008 5:18 pm

You know, an interesting thing is that a close friend of mine went to a funeral a week or so ago and the person was a suicide victim. The reverend gave his sermon and in doing so presented the whole predetermination thing to everyone. And this was a Baptist congregation mind you. He more or less told the congregation that this man did not commit suicide, it wasn't possible for him to commit suicide because everything was already predetermined by God. My friend says that this only helped make the surviving son of the suicide victim extremely angry at God, and caused a literal outburst from him towards the reverend.

Strange to me that a Baptist congregation would embrace this concept, but again I'm not a member of any so I'm not that up to date on that theories they are throwing around these days.

rattrap23 · Post by **rattrap23** » Sun May 04, 2008 1:00 am

way i see it ,

Legalizing abortions is a slippery slope.

God loves us, but he doesn’t love some the things we do.
If people sin and repent…. Hay, forgive and forget.

I am not going to say anymore than that, because the guy who started this thread is a troll for stirring up controversial subject mater.

Jaynz · Post by **Jaynz** » Sun May 04, 2008 1:04 am

Clay wrote:It is an interesting questions for christians: if god knows everything that will ever happen, can you have free will? Even if you have free will and can function autonomously, if god knows everything that will be, then what's the difference?

Actually, at no point in the Bible is God shown to be a pre-destinationist or pre-determinalist. He just operates at a completely different scale from us.

Ackula · Post by **Ackula** » Sun May 04, 2008 6:24 am

TFVanguard wrote:Actually, at no point in the Bible is God shown to be a pre-destinationist or pre-determinalist. He just operates at a completely different scale from us.

That is open to interpretation, and depending upon what bible you are reading. Funny thing about scripture, seems not many denominations can agree on many things equally. Also greatly depends upon if you are referencing the god of the old testament or the god of the new testament, and a viable option would also be the god of Gnostic christianity. Certainly varies greatly based upon the source.

Jaynz · Post by **Jaynz** » Sun May 04, 2008 4:30 pm

Well, one of the issues is that, when the Bible was written, such works were deliberate allegories, meant to teach moral objectives and Truth (capital 'T') around an interpretation of fact (small 'f'). For works of that period, that was not remotely unusual.

It was Constitine that demanded a literal view of Christianity and Jeudaism, which shaped the Catholic church and many of the literal sects which descended from it.

It's a quirk of modern historians (which largely have an anti-Christian and anti-Juediasm bias) to treat the Bible and related works as failed literal pieces, while treating all OTHER works of the period as how they were intended.

Blaster · Post by **Blaster** » Sun May 04, 2008 6:46 pm

rattrap23 wrote:way i see it ,

Legalizing abortions is a slippery slope.

A slippery slope to what?

Post by **Denyer** » Sun May 04, 2008 7:00 pm

TFVanguard wrote:It's a quirk of modern historians (which largely have an anti-Christian and anti-Juediasm bias) to treat the Bible and related works as failed literal pieces, while treating all OTHER works of the period as how they were intended.

It's a quirk of far too many modern preachers to treat chunks as either literal or allegorical depending on whether and to what degree they agree with those bits...

As a set of instructional stories, Christianity still has a fair amount going for it.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Sun May 04, 2008 7:18 pm

Blaster wrote:A slippery slope to what?

Legalising murder, you Communist pagan bastard!

Ackula · Post by **Ackula** » Sun May 04, 2008 7:35 pm

Denyer wrote:As a set of instructional stories, Christianity still has a fair amount going for it.

As do most religions, as they all seem to have the same basic concepts as far as morality goes. To be honest they all have very comparable aspects across the board for the most part, but thats a whole other beast to argue for or against.