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Okay, on a technicality, this should be in Armada/Armada Repaints with Fanboy Placating Value and ****ty Names, but I figured everyone should know what a bunch of twats DW are. Open Armada #9 [it's got a cover with some brooding Mini-cons, that should really narrow it down to about 10 issues]. Go to the "Stuff We're Hawking This Month" page. Look at the Transformers Armada TPB #1 blurb. It ends with the line "With the toy line and TV show doing well, this is a perfect opportunity to have a product to sell to children". I **** you not.

Well, really who cares, DW obviously know that noone reads those pages anyway, I sure don't. I'd put it down to lazy drafting or the person who typed it up accidentally putting on a comment that was supposed to be in house only. Not that any of this detracts from the quality of DW's work anyhow...

Originally posted by Almighty Galvatron
Not that any of this detracts from the quality of DW's work anyhow...

Or lack of in most cases (however Armada is currently a pretty good comic at the end and Furman has semi-redeemed himself imo)

man!! what the hell is wrong with everyone... cliffy dont take this the wrong way because i respect you alot, you have alot of knowledge and thats cool.... BUT.... EVERYONE knows you hate DW's treatment of transformers and its getting pretty damn tiring you slagging em off in almost every post. if you dont like the comics then dont get them... they can do whatever they want, why should we judge them?

i mean yeah there are those who hate the comics (like you) but there are also those that like the comics (like me), they cant cater to everyones tastes.

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Look at the Transformers Armada TPB #1 blurb. It ends with the line "With the toy line and TV show doing well, this is a perfect opportunity to have a product to sell to children". I **** you not.

Cliffy I hate to break this to you but that is the point of ALL
the Transformer comics DW and Marvel US and UK was/is to sell
toys.

Originally posted by CounterPunch
man!! what the hell is wrong with everyone... cliffy dont take this the wrong way because i respect you alot, you have alot of knowledge and thats cool.... BUT.... EVERYONE knows you hate DW's treatment of transformers and its getting pretty damn tiring you slagging em off in almost every post. if you dont like the comics then dont get them... they can do whatever they want, why should we judge them?

i mean yeah there are those who hate the comics (like you) but there are also those that like the comics (like me), they cant cater to everyones tastes.

Cliffy I respect you too but you've beaten this horse to death.

Cyberstrike, Counterpunch. Cliffy's Point. Cliffy's point. Cyberstrike and Counterpunch.

You three must've missed eachother.

nope i didnt miss cliffys point, i just wasnt commenting on it.... i was commenting on cliffys general feeling towards DW

Originally posted by Blaster
Cyberstrike, Counterpunch. Cliffy's Point. Cliffy's point. Cyberstrike and Counterpunch.

You three must've missed eachother.

No I didn't miss the point he's made his point and has beaten it
to death imo.

To be honest, I've never noted any genuine unfounded animosity from Cliffy towards Dreamwave. The only things I've ever seen him complain about are the shoddy plot in the Gen 1 books and the shameless "let's squeeze it for all it's worth" attitude displayed in the multiple-cover attitude.

You all seem to be under the impression that his general stance is "Dreamwave suck, it would be better if Marvel were doing it." Which is rubbish - a rubbish book is a rubbish book, no matter who it's by. Then I see people saying "you just wish it were Furman writing everything." Yet he destroyed War Within #5.

I doubt he likes the Armada comic solely because it's Furman. I'd rather suspect it's because it's a fairly decent book, and is head and shoulders above the other stuff.

People are free to criticise/praise whatever the hell they want to, so long as they can justify it to a rational extent.

Cliffjumper regards Dreamwave with general contempt over the fact that they are primarily concerned with hawking their wares. Now, it could be argued that the point of a company is to make money, and the point of the product is to make money. So argue that with him, don't just get up on your "you're annoying, give it a rest" horses. Discuss the damn issue. Politely, civilly and using logic to back up your arguments.

And anyway, say Cliffy despises Dreamwave for no specific reason (always a possible) - in this post he is drawing attention to something. He has a point to make, it's not just random bile being spat at a product he dislikes (like I've seen so many times from so many other Transfans aimed at so many other items). He keeps it on topic, can justify his opinions and always roots them in fact. The bulk of you would do well to learn.

just to say im in no way one of those guys who says that ppl would like it if marvel did it so on so forth..

all im saying is why exactly are dw "twats" for saying "With the toy line and TV show doing well, this is a perfect opportunity to have a product to sell to children"

it just seems ppl go outta their way (not in a sad way as in spend all their time) to find stuff wrong with dw's work.

Originally posted by CounterPunch
all im saying is why exactly are dw "twats" for saying "With the toy line and TV show doing well, this is a perfect opportunity to have a product to sell to children"

They are 'twats' because:
a) They know very well that a great deal of their sales come from adult fans, not children.

b) They are either inept enough to leave an in-house comment in the final version of the ad, or are genuinely displaying thier contempt for the adult fanbase who read Armada

c) "With the toy line and TV show doing well, this is a perfect opportunity to have a product to sell to children" has no real purpose in an ad. It will not increase sales by telling people that the product is for children. It may, in fact, decrease sales by offending older fans. Thus, DW is shooting themselves in the foot by printing it.

'Twats' isn't the exact word I would have chosen, though. Bumbling morons, maybe.

It reads like a comic store solicitation... as far as I can see, DW would do better to apply that tag to their first G1 miniseries, not Armada. Except that was 'adult' by virtue of a squished mercenary, wasn't it?

Incidentally, the Transformers Armada hardback annual is now out in Toys'R'us and Sainsbury's, published by Pedigree. Can't remember if there were any puzzles in it, but I think it reprints issues 1-3 (about 60 pages, anyway) of the US Armada comic.

that is the point of ALL the Transformer comics DW and Marvel US and UK was/is to sell toys.

We can walk through the development applied to characters in the UK Marvel comics as opposed to the virtually ceaseless intro-fest of the US material... or the calculated storylines of the cartoon (read the 'TF bible' production notes if you have any doubts about that.)

Like it or not, DW bid for the franchise independently of the reissues question; there's minor overlap between the books and the reissue schedule, but it certainly isn't a "feature this TF or we'll find someone who will" deal. Which it used to be for both the US show and comic.

DW vs. the Marvel UK material is a fairer comparison... and purely on the quality of writing or pacing of material, the DW material is dodgy as hell. Within the first twelve issues it jumps around all over the place.

Wow, I knew Cyberstrike was a tit, and countercase has tittish leanings, but still...

I simply pointed it out because I thought it was ****ing funny that what was obviously an industry comment, or even a rough note, was left in the final printing of the issue. Christ, you people'd be at home at Seibertron...

Yeh, I'm anti-Dreamwave for no ****ing reason. Sure. Right. When I get my next site update done, you'll see how low my opinion of lots of the Marvel stuff, including that by Furman in some cases, is. Dreamwave gets more mention because IT'S HAPPENING NOW, YOU DIMWITTED CRETINS.

I don't love Armada for Furman. If you morons actually, oh I dunno, actually check what the Hell you're talking about, you'll find I was hugely positive about the first arc of Armada overall, and a helluva lot less against the dreaded issue 3 than most. I was lauding the thing before the Furman badnwagon jumpers. I also strongly feel that Furman's Armada work has suffered from his biggest failing, an inability to do decent conclusions - think Target 2006 [Galvatron just buggers off], Time Wars [everyone bar Prime, Shockwave, Scourge and Galvatron is brushed aside], End of the Road [sure, they only reputedly had a month's notice it was all over; doesn't make the story any better though], War Within... And it runs over to his Armada work. The first two issues, the Pat Lee ones, are the worst comics of the series so far [and I can't see 17 or 18 being especially poor]. The Moonbase arc is fantastic, until #11, where it degenrates intoa series of flukes and cliches. The space laser arc is the most miserable padding storyline seen in Transformers since, oh, the G2 Distant Thunder rip-off. Worlds Collide is pretty cool, but to be 100% fair, it cribs a huge amount from Target 2006, and lots of it's crowd-pleasing - Galvatron's time-jump team should be carrying a big banner saying "Trading on Past Glories". I simply overall find Armada less of a grandstanding title - none of the characters have these fanboys who have to be satisfied by the same old cliched cyphers acting like some terrible TV show. The main reason I like Armada is it has a plot. Sometimes not a very good one, sometimes not a very original one, but it reads like a comic rather than a self-conscious nostalgia sales events. There is no way I am changing my well-founded, backed-up opinions about something because a pair of ignorant fools like you two brand them as prejudicial.

I've just realised what a waste of time justifying them to both of you are, as you just ignore anythign I say and bandy around the same nonsense as before. Though thanks to Cyberstrike who reminding me why his ignroant arse is on my Ignore List, and I'm sure at this point Counterpunch will do one of his/hers/whatevernotlikeitmattersorigivea**** "well, that's my opinion so I'll not post in this topic again and run away because I can't actually debate anything" escapes.

well hate to break it to u cliffy BUT im not looking for your justification i was saying something in referance to ur treatment of dw... the way i stand its that ur FAR too harsh on dw

and let me say this, in that big ole paragraph you wrote there i completely agree with you, so i am not one of those people saying ud love this comic if it said marvel or if it was all written by furman, as i said in my first post i have respect for you i just think people are way too critical of dw way too often

Morning all

Counterpunch - that whole "justification thing" was to show you that Cliffjumper was more than just a DW hating person, who doesn't like anything they do solely on the basis that it's Dreamwave.

Sure, he's down on Dreamwave, but every time he does a rant on one of their TF comics, he's right. Every thing he says or points out is true. Weither you like it or not. I bet that Cliffjumper would be less critical of their stuff, if they actually put out quality stuff. He's right in most cases - DW comics are poorly paced, with bad writing, scripting - hell, poorly drawn in some cases (lol, the balloon TF thread is dead on).

Why does he pick on them so much? Cause it's easy - DW puts out 3-4 TF comics a month - that's a chance for someone to notice all the bad things every week. If they put out quality stuff, then most people wouldn't complain. But there are alot of people who just go "ooooh a TF comic, it must be good" and ignore some of the glaring problems. I like the TF series from DW, I enjoy them. It doesn't stop me from recognizing that it has some serious issues about quality. If you had a TF comic on par with: Kingdom Come or The Dark Knight Returns or Grendel (Comico) 15-18, No one would really find problems with it. But right now, it's about as bad as Infinity Inc. There's potential there, but right now it's cr@p. (BTW Infinity inc was this horrible DC comic put out in the late 80's. It's only buy factor is that it's Todd McFarlanes first work).

And Cliffy, I haven't seen a rant about the 2 TF VS GIjoe comics - lol, they're ripe for a rant. The Devils Due is almost a rehash of the G1 V1 story - sadly enough.

and now i leave this discussion, not because i feel i wont be able to add anything to the debate if cliffy posts again but because ive come to realise once again that u can never settle anything with someone who seems as hard headed as him....

and thats what i said, i dont need him to justify anything.... and yes cliff i am more at home at seibertron

Originally posted by CounterPunch
and now i leave this discussion, not because i feel i wont be able to add anything to the debate if cliffy posts again but because ive come to realise once again that u can never settle anything with someone who seems as hard headed as him....

HAHAHAHAHA! I can't believe you're legging it because yu're out of your depth when I mocked you for always legging it when you're out of your depth!

CounterPunch, you've yet to do the one thing that's all I ask. Actually say why Dreamwave deserve any respect [and no, the fact that they're simply putting out a Transformers comic isn't enough, as someone else would do if they didn't, and generally I'd really prefer nothing new over something new and diabolical which excretes on something I love]. No-one's really done this. all I get is attacks because I prefer the way Marvel did Transformers in general to the way Dreamwave are doing them in general. So pull your fist out of your arse and start posting like you have something other than fluff in your head, and maybe we'll see whether it's me being hard-headed, or you incapable of constructing any kind of coherent sentence.

sorry, when i posted first in this thread it wasnt aimed directly at u just general, it just really seems that a number of the threads over here seem to involve someone taking it out on dw. now i am a fan of the comic but i myself think it could be oh so much better and i actually agree with everything from your essay thread, i just dont understand why so many people hate so much about the dreamwave comic.. i just dont see how people can have no respect for someone (cos come on we all know the guy everyone hates is pat) when they havent done anything to you.. i mean yeah maybe the majority of the art isnt stellar (pat lee - has alot of problems, jae lee - really seems to be just pat lee with more darkness..... people say about how the gijoe/tf style is something thats never been done for transformers is cool and i think its pretty good but its damn confusing, andy his work in issue 2 is alot better than 1 but it just doesnt seem right some times so i think don and guido are their best artists) and the writing isnt exactly good (just look at micks pacing and the fact that NO one could have made the whole ultra magnus situation in war and piece more confusing, and simon.... whats so good about the guy? his first like 6 issues of armada were good but not amazing and it seems he can only do good/really good work in climactic times like the last issues of the comic)......

...... so even though dw does have alot of problems i dont see how they could have hurt/angered anyone so bad that they dont have their disrespect..

the reason why alot of my posts on this sort of subject are how they are is because i acknowledge that transformers isnt all that special, yeah i love it but not so much that i worry about alot of things that dont need worrying about

Originally posted by CounterPunch
...... so even though dw does have alot of problems i dont see how they could have hurt/angered anyone so bad that they dont have their disrespect..

I think this is where the problem is: You see it as a personal attack on DW - which it really isn't. We are not hurt\angered by what they're doing - just dissapointed. They seem to think that they can pass off sub-standard and reused plots, with the occasionl decent piece of art work and have us salivating.

The fact is, that in recent years TF fans have been spoiled (not that this is a bad thing). Two well writen and well animated shows (Beast Wars and Beast Machines - say what you want, BM may not have been popluar, but it's better than any cr@p DW or Hasbro\Aeon has put out in the last 3-4 years). The end run (well 75 and under) of the G1 marvel series and G2 were decent comics and actually gave the fans credit for having a brain. Hell, most fan fics I've ever read have been better writen than the dreamwave dravel.

It's disappointing and disheartening to see something you like and enjoy be shoved down to the lowest denominator for the sake of making money. As an artist - if you're going to do something, do it right, or go home. There are comics out there where it's blatently obvious that the writers and artists are pouring their heart and soul into it and making it the best it can be. DW's TF comics are just a job, and something they do because they have to, not because there is love there. If there was love there, then we'd have a better product, plain and simple.

And this is sad because TF's have such a rich mythos, that they could become something more than your stereo typical superhero fighting his arch villian on a bridge with an axe and a mace. Give the characters some depth, some focus and some life. Give us a well writen story with good art. And give us some credit for being intelligent. That's all we want - that's all Cliffy is ranting about (well, a very boiled down version).

But apperently it's too much to ask for. Because we keep getting the same stuff over again. We are not hurt\angered. We're not making this a personal attack on DW, Pat Lee, or Hasbro (well..... That's another rant ). We're just dissapointed to see something we love get treaded in such a haphazard way.

Final thought (should go up there, but i just thought of it): We realize that Transformers is DW's Cash Cow - it's by far their biggest money maker. But stop treating it like a cash cow, put some actual effort into it and make a damn good product, not something that just passes, and will get the fans to buy it.