My God - Tense Or What? - F1

CounterPunch · Post by **CounterPunch** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 6:56 pm

Holy bloody crap, I think the end of the Brazilian grand prix was the tensest thing I have ever ever seen!

Cracking last 15 minutes, switching all over the place, Vettel did a brilliant job with holding off Hamilton what a crying crying shame that Glock who was handling everything so well just ended up disappearing in the 2nd to last corner.

As you can probs tell, despite being English, I did not want Hamilton to win, I felt Massa is such a diserving champion and think its a shame he lost (afterall, he drove a brilliant race)

Also, I really wish commentators would stay neutral, nothing I hate more than commentators blathering on about how its such an amazing thing to happen, yeah do your job, commentate.

EDIT - How completely disrespectful, cutting from the ceremony to talk to a Lewis Hamilton who neither could nor wanted to talk.

Jetfire · Post by **Jetfire** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:05 pm

HAMILTON WINS

Fantastic. Last minute stuff too. Yay!

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:10 pm

Well, that was about as good a championship as any that's ever been won by a Toyota suffering a technical malady two corners from the end. Vettel shat all over Hamilton at the end

Harsh on Massa, who drove superbly. Lucky for Lewis, with his designated #2 and his complete inability to make good tactical calls or overtake healthy yet inferior cars. If Schumacher won a title like that, the tabloid press would lodge an appeal with the FIA...

One for the fair weather fans - the main victory was the back end of ITV's ludicrously biased arse-licking commentary.

Lord Zarak · Post by **Lord Zarak** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:31 pm

That was rather stuffy methinks. Its the first race ive seen from the start and its the most exciting race ive seen in a while. If all the races were like that, id be inclined to watch more.

Anywho, the best thing that Ferrari can do is to drag out next years challenge. Hamilton looks like he doesnt do pressure very well. It was only toyotas decision to keep drys on glock that won hamilton the title.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 7:38 pm

Ferrari just need to match McLaren in the tactical layout - if McLaren are running Hamilton as a #1 driver, with a second driver who's brief is to try not to crash or get in Lewis' way or take up much space in the garage or use Lewis' mug, Ferrari need to pick a #1 driver and push him. If Ferrari hadn't ran Massa and Raikkonen as equals for much of the year, Hamilton wouldn't be in the sort of position where there was pressure, as Ferrari would have won the title five races ago

Lord Zarak · Post by **Lord Zarak** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 9:30 pm

Considering the quality of the line-up that Ferrari have, was this the only way they could have run the season? If they placed all their eggs in a Massa shaped basket for instance, and it went wrong they would not be in a position to change tack.

Flexibility rather than all out attack considering the money invested.

CounterPunch · Post by **CounterPunch** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:07 pm

Cliffjumper wrote:Ferrari just need to match McLaren in the tactical layout - if McLaren are running Hamilton as a #1 driver, with a second driver who's brief is to try not to crash or get in Lewis' way or take up much space in the garage or use Lewis' mug, Ferrari need to pick a #1 driver and push him. If Ferrari hadn't ran Massa and Raikkonen as equals for much of the year, Hamilton wouldn't be in the sort of position where there was pressure, as Ferrari would have won the title five races ago

The difficulty with that of course is that both Raikkonen and Massa have shown that they are World Champ contenders.

Seriously though, as much as I want Brits to succeed I wish Hamilton hadn't, he needs some humility, he is so egotistical (and yes, maybe with some good reason) and winning the title will only add to that, as has been said before by Cliffy and a couple of other people he had the priviledge of not only getting in to a brilliant McLaren car both this year and last, but also being happy that every single person at McLaren is behind him over his team mate.

I still maintain my main reason for disliking Hamilton - He made a big fuss about moving to Switzerland because of how much he was being hounded by the media, and then hed appear on Top Gear, or go to celebrity events etc, if you want a relatively quiet life, live a relatively quiet life, dont get caught up in your own celebrity then complain that the media is always there.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:07 pm

It's undoubtedly the fairest way to do things, but if McLaren are going to play favourites, they need to as well I'm afraid. Of course, McLaren letting drivers race blew it for them last time around, but that was because they left them to it when it had obviously gone too far.

It is a risky strategy, especially when you consider Ferrari have the two best drivers on the grid at the current moment (the problem was it wasn't the plan - when they signed Kimi, it was as a like-for-like for Schumacher; however, in the year in between Kimi signing the contract and actually starting to drive, Massa got really, really good rather than the expected stop-gap), but it's the only way they're realistically going to compete with a monied team like McLaren effectively running a single car.

Ideally there would just be both McLaren drivers on a level playing field, but as long as Lewis is allowed to pick and choose team-mates, that's never going to happen - ironically, the whole year has been something of a flip of one of Schumacher's less edifying Ferrari titles, where McLaren or Williams were unable to pick and stick to a title-challenging driver, and some solid #2 work from Barrichello allowed Schumacher to sneak through and half-inch a title he may not have deserved (actually, this really reeked of the title Schumi won with that 8th place at Suzuka, which came on the back of a drive nearly as awful as Lewis was this afternoon after Ralf and Montoya had knocked lumps out of him). Difference with Schumacher is there were usually a couple of performances across any year that showed why he was in a class of his own... Maybe the Hamiltonites would like to point out some really stunning drives from Lewis over the past season?

O'course, Schumacher was a stinking Kraut who orchestrated a team to his will and screwed over everyone else, unlike Lewis Hamilton, who's a young lad who's taken over from Johnny Wilkinson/Kevin Pietersen/Andy Murray mantle of "He might be a bit of a cock, but he's doing alright for Britain!" casual fan's sportsman of choice for a little while.

CounterPunch · Post by **CounterPunch** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:28 pm

The thing with the team control of Lewis/Schumi is that Michael kind of earned that ability (if you catch my drift) by being a ruthless, dangerous, petulant, two-faced but incredibly skilled driver, Lewis has got it by being Ron Dennis' golden child for the last however many years.

I don't think Lewis would be anything even slightly special if he wasn't in a McLaren, if you look at the amount of mistakes he makes, late braking, late accelerating, going wide, going off, it's only because of the speed and quality of the car that he manages to get over these mistakes.

I think Vettel is going to be something special, I truly do, hes shown speed, skill, guile and most of all a "I don't give a **** if most people think you're Jesus reborn, and I don't give a crap if getting in front of you means you'll lose the title, get out of my way you w****r"

Most other racers who are around his level (if you look at the technical placing of the Toro Rosso's) would have been perfectly comfortable with letting Hamilton stay in front, he would have finished 6th, good place, and he would have stayed out of the title chase, the fact he said "you know what, sod it" shows confidence and determination.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Sun Nov 02, 2008 10:42 pm

On Schumacher - I totally agree. Everyone slated him for the way he basically ran the title race for the last six or seven years of his career, but it was all done by his graft. He fell into F1 more-or-less by accident, but took the chance with both hands. He then steadily built up with Benetton, dragging the team into regular contention (Piquet won three races shortly before he joined, but two were flukes, and the cars were never regularly challenging for wins); he then moved to Ferrari, and it's easy to forget what a shambles they were, and again incrementally built them up to being front runners as well. I mean, basically it wasn't his fault once there he was so difficult to topple and it got a bit boring - he's not meant to go "Whoa shit, I'm hammering this lot, maybe if I cut an arm off...", it's the job of the others to step up to the plate, and they all pretty much failed.

On Vettel - totally agree, he's looking like a real prospect. The biggest problem is there's going to be a bottleneck at the front end of the grid - Massa, Raikkonen and Hamilton are all fairly young, and once you add on that with a title under his belt Hamilton's never going to let someone that talented in the other McLaren, that's the top two teams filled. I can see him going to BMW, but I can't see him doing much more than a couple of wins there, a la Kubica (who, for me, has had a slightly disappointing year). Renault are back to being Alonso's team, and there's a chance he could spend a fristrating couple of years waiting for an opening and maybe going off the boil. Definitely hugely talented, though - Bourdais is incredibly good, and Vettel's made him look like an amateur all year, which is unfair. Bourdais has been driving the car to the absolute limit... Vettel's just managed to go even further.

CounterPunch · Post by **CounterPunch** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:08 am

I'm personally suprised by just how much Alonso has managed to get out of the Renault, I didn't think it would be in any way a decent car this year but I was proved wrong.

I agree with you about Kubica, for once it seemed like Kubica had been given a car good enough for him to do well, but it wasn't to be.

Man, I don't know why I dislike Hamilton so much, it's just that Massa seems genuinely humbled by the fact he is in a Ferrari and doing so well, whereas (despite what he may say and act like) Hamilton gives me the impression that he never considered anything worse than a top team, if you get what I mean. Massa feels humbled while Hamilton feels like its all he deserves.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 9:29 am

Aye, Alonso's done a good season's work in what looks like a rather mediocre car.

And yeh, it's a number of things that rub me up the wrong way about Hamilton... the fact he's not particularly good is one, but there's the sense of entitlement, the political stuff at McLaren which saw Alonso (no angel himself, but unfairly made the scapegoat) thrown out, the fact he seems to have been grown in a special McLaren Mercedes vat somewhere in Woking, the silver spoon treatment... he's just the ultimate corporate driver, what Ron Dennis has been striving to create all these years. At least Alain Prost would just go spare every few years and remind you he was human. Even Hakkinen spent a couple of years displaying evidence of a personality (admittedly, that personality was of a mad bastard... his demolition of something like six other cars at the 1994 German Grand Prix is difficult to forget) before Dennis sucked the charm out of him.

CounterPunch · Post by **CounterPunch** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:40 pm

Yeh its the feel that he is an unflinching, unquestioning loyal lapdog driver, if he ever drops in quality slightly (as in if he drops out of the title race for more than a year) then I have no doubt Dennis will boot him, I also feel he would rather retire early than go to any lower team.

In terms of Alonso, yeah, no doubt that Alonso is a bit of a... you know, but the thing with Alonso was that he went to McLaren on the back of 2 very major title victories and he no doubt got in the car expecting to be the top of the food chain becuase he was being partnered with this young kid whod never raced F1 before, and what he found out was that not a single person in the team gave a **** about him.

I just looked back at the season results for the years Alonso won (2005 and 2006) and my god, I hadn't realised he dominated so much! In 2005 he was like 20 points ahead of 2nd pace (Kimi) and 60 ahead of 3rd (Schumi) and in 2006 he was a dozen ahead of 2nd (Schumi) and 50 ahead of 3rd. Also, lets not forget Alonso was only a year or two older than Hamilton is when he first won... So why the hell is everyone saying Hamilton will be one of the greatest? As near as I can tell Alonso did everything Hamilton has done (but better) only at a slightly older age...

Lord Zarak · Post by **Lord Zarak** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:53 pm

Has Hamilton misjudged his position then? Or, considering the sacrifices he and his family have made, wouldnt he feel like its everything he deserves?

Clearly he is not the 'plucky underdog' stereotype that us Brits take to our hearts, but it seems like that is being used against him as the source of a lot of the criticism directed against him.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 3:42 pm

It's basically impossible to be a plucky underdog in a top team like McLaren, and few popular British drivers have been underdogs when the public have paid attention (Mansell, Hunt, Coulthard were at their most popular when with large teams). The only chap who's been a genuine underdog instead of merely mediocre (which is where Brundle, Blundell, Button, Firman, Davidson and Wilson fit) is Johnny Herbert. Britain does love an underdog, but only if it's the best thing going - we'll take outright domination if there's a choice.

It does rankle me a little that Hamilton's got so many, many breaks when infinitely more talented drivers are unknown outside of the sport both past and present through not having his luck. But the overriding problem I have with him is he should be making more of what he has - two years on the trot he's been #1 driver in the fastest car in the field (**** inexperience, experience doesn't matter anymore - if you're inexperienced and fast you bend the car; you can always learn to stop bending the car, you can't leanr to be fast). His sum total of acheivments? A championship won because Timo Glock's car stopped working properly with a quarter of a lap to go. Timo. Glock. And after someone had basically humiliated him in a far weaker car as well.

Sometime soon, because it always happens in F1, McLaren aren't going to have the best car on the grid. We'll see what he's made of then, just like we saw what Damon Hill was really about when he got off the Williams-Renault magic carpet.

CounterPunch · Post by **CounterPunch** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 7:06 pm

Lord Zarak wrote:Has Hamilton misjudged his position then? Or, considering the sacrifices he and his family have made, wouldnt he feel like its everything he deserves?

Clearly he is not the 'plucky underdog' stereotype that us Brits take to our hearts, but it seems like that is being used against him as the source of a lot of the criticism directed against him.

Would those sacrifices not be just as much as any other driver on the grid? Some have left their home country and more than likely toiled on foreign soil to get in to the worst car on the grid, whereas Hamilton has had the fortune of having everything paid for him since he was 13, and in a British based company.

A big issue with my opinion on Hamilton is to do with the media, I'm sick to death of hearing how ge's the first person to win it in only their second season, you know why? Because no other racer has been given the chance to jump in to the best car with no experience.

Lord Zarak · Post by **Lord Zarak** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:16 pm

On that final point, how many italian drivers have gone to the head of Ferrari and said "I will be driving for you in x-amount of years, gimme your number"?

Hamilton has shown a fair amount of talent and flair to do as well as he has these past two seasons, and that includes not going along with what the team thinks is best for him. By not being mollycoddled, at least in that respect, he has shown maturity. Of course he will make mistakes, such as the Swiss move but hes young, and will learn. Hopefully.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:33 pm

Italians are rarely employed by Ferrari - they only take race drives with Enzo's permission since Bandini died (I believe Alboreto and Capelli, who was noted by Enzo shortly before his death).

However, putting that aside... basically you're saying if I go up to Peter Sauber and say "I will be driving for you in x-amount of years, gimme your number" I'm actually deserving of falling into an F1 car?

Oh, and name an occasion where Hamilton's shown talent and/or flair. Go on, point me out a moment where you can look at something he's done in the car and say "That's why he's class". That's easy stuff, even Hill managed one of those.

CounterPunch · Post by **CounterPunch** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:41 pm

Lord Zarak wrote:On that final point, how many italian drivers have gone to the head of Ferrari and said "I will be driving for you in x-amount of years, gimme your number"?

Discounting Ferrari and opening it up to a wider field, just because we only know that happened Hamilton doesn't mean a similar situation hasn't occurred with other teams, only reason we know that is because the media dont stop talking about it.

Cliffjumper · Post by **Cliffjumper** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 8:47 pm

Alonso's been under Briatore's wing since the year dot - I believe the same was true of Fisichella as well.