TFARCHIVE FORUMS

So, the religion of the Transformers. I think we could a lot of mileage out of it in the game, and it could be the cornerstone of what makes the game unique. I wanted to hash something out and present it to Warcry and see if it was awesome enough... But everyone's got good ideas man, I can see them in the other discussion threads. I would love to hash it out here. Anyways, my two cents:

The All Spark as I understood it (preferred to think of it) always felt very Buddhist to me. Sparks coming from it and returning to it, bringing from their lives all their experiences and such, and each new spark being composed of the whole: to use a crap analogy, like plasticine. Celestial plasticine. Okay, awful analogy, forget it.

And, I always thought that Primus was made of this as well: a large portion of it, but still of it none the less. As in, The One that the Ultimate Guide mentions that Primus and Unicron came from was in fact the All Spark. So, we have Nirvana making God and Satan. Or Satan, and from Satan God, which is just an awesome twist on most faiths.

As a place to start, what do people think?

The one thing I would most like to see out of the religion in this game, is the centers of it, aka churches, or what would seem most fitting to me - a temple. We hear so much about the transformer religion in various meantions, and occasionally a relic such as the Matrix, but there must have been a place of worship somewhere. If we wind up going with what is discussed in the other planning thread, Megatron will be attacking locations such as this.

Agreed. Temples should be there, with religious guys like, say, Vector Prime, the Keeper and/or Boltax running them.

Maybe a temple for worshipping Unicron as well? I mean, multiple religions and Satanism exist in real life...

Blackjack wrote:Maybe a temple for worshipping Unicron as well?

I somehow doubt Primus would appreciate a monument to Unicron being built on his body. Worship of Unicron would probably be considered cultic in this sort of setting, and it's unlikely there would be visible structures for it. I wouldn't doubt underground meetings somewhere, but chances of there being openly visible dedications to Unicron would be extremely slim, and probably very temporary, if you get my drift

Hmm... makes sense. Although isn't Primus supposed to be dormant and everything?

Most likely, but in most societies the worship of a destructive god is frowned upon, so regardless of Primus's state (or the knowledge of what he is ) most people still aren't likely to allow a church of Unicron to openly be built

Blackjack wrote:Agreed. Temples should be there, with religious guys like, say, Vector Prime, the Keeper and/or Boltax running them.

Maybe we even get to see Xaaron or Alpha Trion?

Aero Blade wrote:Most likely, but in most societies the worship of a destructive god is frowned upon, so regardless of Primus's state (or the knowledge of what he is ) most people still aren't likely to allow a church of Unicron to openly be built

Aye, that was what I was thinking. But the cultists can be there, kind of like the Marvel comics setting, yeah? Unicron-worshipping temples would be too much, I agree.

Springer85 wrote:Maybe we even get to see Xaaron or Alpha Trion?

I could definitely see Alpha Trion as a temple sage, perhaps even being that while still serving as a senator, he being their representative. That or he becomes a political figure after Megatron tries to blow all the buildings

I could see Megatron trying to kill Alpha Trion actually, if he's an important figure in the Church of Primus. He could be forced into hiding or even become a martyr.

I never saw Boltax as a religious figure: he's a competent archivist, but he doesn't have any ties to gods.

Temples are important, and we could bring in concepts like the Matrix flames to them as well, were we to include them. If we expand beyond monotheism and include entities like the Covenant in the mythology, then we could tie in certain churches and lines of thinking with those entities. I'd like to hear of the 'Temples devoted to the patience of Libras', or the people dedicated to the books of Leonicus.

Unicron having a secret cult is awesome, and their are some obvious potential members such as Bludgeon, Mindwipe, Bugy and more that we could include in it. But I feel that we couldn't get into it in the time we'd allow ourselves on Cybertron.

One big question: Does Megatron Believe?

Megatron most likely doesn't believe, and that may be to the advantage of potential infultrators. If Megatron does declare war on transformer religion as a whole, he might be an appealing tool to Unicron worshipers who would love to see the chaos and destruction that his regime would cause. Let him do his work for a while, then perhaps try to get rid of him once he has expended his usefulness in trampling the other religions.

Overall we wouldn't get too much time to explore fully the religious aspects, but it would be a plot device that could wind up causing trouble later once the transformers settle on earth. A rushed evac may wind up allowing unsavories to infilltrate into things, or just the clashing of mixed backgrounds once they try to settle down. And if Megs is not sucessful in wiping out the religious supporters as he might like, that'd be something else for him to pester the Autobots about

*sulks* Warcry said I could start a religion thread... Yet is Christmas, and so here I am joining in with a ho-ho-ho

My penny'orth:

Simon Furman is god, but we will need some main premises to start with and those already provided by continuity are fine within mythological parameters. An unknown force, referred to as Primus when named, brought life to a new universe through the medium of his own self, made manifest in The Well of Allsparks when he 'settled down' to rest after his great enterprise. The creator was/is vulnerable to the forces of entropy, manifest as Unicron, since all things would like to return to their basic state (okay, not proper physics, but you get the drift). To ensure his safety, Primus wrapped himself in a physical shield, a whole world, upon which he placed one of his primary races - and there I stop, because I have theories based on Beast Machines etc and you don't want me rabbiting on as this is a thread for general input

'War Within' gave us a secret sect of Unicron worshippers - you all know who some of them were - and there have been brief points in stories where Unicron followers have come out of the metalwork. Chiefly, though, as I said above, I see Unicron as the entropic force in the universe where Primus is the creative; where one cannot technically exist without the other. Y'know, perhaps Unicron is also a bit afraid of Primus since, no matter what is destroyed, the creator, in this context, might awake again...

Alpha Trion is, it has been indicated more than once, one of the original Thirteen, so I would like to retain that idea. I've seen it suggested that he is the keeper of Cybertron history or put in place to ensure the continuation of the race as Primus' first line of protection against Unicron; whatever... we could develop a new idea, if we wished. The other twelve seem to represent physical forces, such as space/time (Vector Prime), but we would be best advised, in an RPG context, to leave well alone there!

Alpha Trion is also linked to Vector Sigma, which seems to be both a standalone mainframe distinct from the one Primus has downloaded himself into (a back-up, perhaps?) and capable of channelling power from The Allspark. I've toyed with the idea that the Quintessons inveighed themselves on the Cybertronians, seeing a business opportunity, and tried to control Vector Sigma with a shell programme - which Vector Sigma eventually fought back against the only possible way, giving it a Spark, thus subverting it into the Oracle.

verytired - I do go for the idea of the Sacred Flame of Primus and a Temple, probably sited in the Council Complex. Used it myself in a short story for AutoAssembly and am currently trying to write fanfic based in a lost underground worship site known as Firstforge - I'm sure you can work out my ideas there.

Yeah, I've thought about this for a while, trying to link all the continuity creation/history ideas... sad little mythologist, ain't I...

Boltax might be a thorn in the Primus worshippers' side, what with his alternative religion of knowledge. Would be interesting if he denied Primus and did not endear himself to someone like Zeta Prime.

I scorn The Thirteen and all they represent!

...

Erm, what I meant to say is that The Thirteen are something that we probably want to avoid just because Hasbro have arbitrarily decided to build them up to be way, way more powerful than they were in the actual fiction they showed up in. Alpha Trion is meant to be a wise old man, not a demigod who exists as a single entity across all possible universes.

Personally I'd like to steer clear of merging the Primus and Quintesson origins. It's a good idea, but because it's a good idea it's been done to death at this point and nothing we do is going to come close to something like Eugenesis.

I'd like to spend time exploring Atechnogenesis (the belief that Transformer life naturally evolved from non-sentient machines) and how those secular Transformers view the religious establishment.

As far as Megatron goes, I don't think "Unbeliever" would really be the right label. He wouldn't be an atheist per se, and the best label for him would probably be agnostic. He wouldn't deny Primus so much as he just doesn't care if Primus exists or not. To Megatron, if Primus is real then he's an evil god who created a slave race to fight his war and if he's a myth then the church as an institution exists for no reason other than to exploit the stupid. Either way he'd want to destroy the church and wipe Primus from the Transformers' collective consciousness.

As far as Vector Sigma goes, Aero and I discussed the idea that it's just one node in a planet-wide network of Vector computers, because it just makes sense for there to be some redundancy built into the system. Of course, after a worldwide holocaust the odds of there only being one left are fairly good...

Re: Unicron, I had a thought. What if he's dormant in the same way Primus is, slowly shaping the world he's trapped in into the most efficient engine of destruction he can imagine? I could see a group of unwitting Transformers settling on his surface, only to be slowly corrupted and finally turned into his enthralled heralds when he wakes up...

Personally, I think we should keep the origins obscured, just to make things more interesting. I mean, like, some people will believe in Primus and some in Quintessons, but none of them could be proven correct, like multiple religions among the humans. We got to focus on the TFs, remember, not their origin. Sort of...

And there must be atheists. Like Jetfire or Shockwave or Perceptor... whose brains would probably explode if they try to wrap their minds around Primus.

Like the idea of a group of TFs discovering Unicron. Ditto for Matrix Flames.

I think a good way of obscuring religions would be different peoples interpretations of the religion itself. Their are very few examples where that hasn't happened in the faiths on earth after all. Makes me think of Bludgeons belief in the 'Ultimate Warrior' at the end of Marvel G1 being at odds with the beliefs on the 'Last Autobot'...

Transformers worshipping Primus as a gatherer of knowledge, others worshipping Primus as a protector: Some believing him to be unrelated to Unicron, others believing he is one of a Pantheon.

Then we have worshippers of knowledge with Boltax, and others believing in Atechnogenesis (Jetfire? ), others worshipping x'hal...

Xal! X'hal is from DC comics. Starfire's race's goddess, I believe.

In retrospect Boltax doesn't seem too much like a religious figure to me, just a slightly loony and obsessive librarian.

Blackjack wrote:Personally, I think we should keep the origins obscured, just to make things more interesting. I mean, like, some people will believe in Primus and some in Quintessons, but none of them could be proven correct, like multiple religions among the humans. We got to focus on the TFs, remember, not their origin. Sort of...

I've said it before, but I think the vagueness of their origin is great. I know I'm going to have a character or 2 in my roster that don' believeor have lost their faith in Primus.

Like the idea of a group of TFs discovering Unicron. Ditto for Matrix Flames.

Oh! Awesome! Like a group of mechs accidentally landing on a planet that turns out to be Unicron?

What about Cybertron though? Is Cybertron Primus transformed? Or is he just a planet? Or is that still a secret?

Springer85 wrote:Oh! Awesome! Like a group of mechs accidentally landing on a planet that turns out to be Unicron?

-points to Warcry's post above-

I can see a couple of candidates for this kind of thing. Bludgeon, Bugly and Mindwipe are the obvious ones, so is Thunderwing...

BTW, Galvatron, Scourge and Cyclonus -- there from the start, or would be Megatron/Seekers/Insecticons reformatted?

What about Cybertron though? Is Cybertron Primus transformed? Or is he just a planet? Or is that still a secret?

While it is not my place to decide, I HATE the Primus is a planet concept. Makes Unicron and Primus too similar, methinks. I love the bastard god vibe we had in the Marvel comics.

Blackjack wrote:Xal! X'hal is from DC comics. Starfire's race's goddess, I believe.

OK, that would be an awkward belief system for a Transformer

Blackjack wrote:While it is not my place to decide, I HATE the Primus is a planet concept. Makes Unicron and Primus too similar, methinks. I love the bastard god vibe we had in the Marvel comics.

Seconded. Unicron as a planet sized threat is one near-impossible thing to factor in, but Cybertron transforming gets a no from me and all.