TFARCHIVE FORUMS

Just pondering, and I'm wondering has the TF revival maybe reached a bit of a zenith? DotM the toyline* seems to have done decent rather than spectacular business with (what seems to be) fewer figures than ROTF and is basically winding down in anticipation of Prime. Things still look very healthy, don't get me wrong, and I don't think we're going to see the desperate collapse of the back end of the 1980s ("How about their heads turn into little men who get lost?" "Great idea! Let's make them out of four huge blocks of plastic while we're at it, the kids will come flocking back!"), but does anyone else think the Transformers' second stint as a genuine cultural phenomenon is fading?


* Segue: Obviously DotM the film has done superb business, even allowing for inflation compared to the first two, but I'd be surprised if the crossover for seen the film/bought a toy is anywhere near as high as it is for, say, an episode of the cartoon.

A few thoughts on this post:

Cliffjumper wrote:Things still look very healthy, don't get me wrong, and I don't think we're going to see the desperate collapse of the back end of the 1980s ("How about their heads turn into little men who get lost?" "Great idea! Let's make them out of four huge blocks of plastic while we're at it, the kids will come flocking back!"), but does anyone else think the Transformers' second stint as a genuine cultural phenomenon is fading?

Not at all. Transformers has always had a fan base, it's only recently that it's been okay to be an out and proud fan of the series as an adult. With the Rise of the Geeks, and it's accompanying more general acceptance of all things "geeky", Transformers has again come to people's minds. The live action movies helped, but the cartoons and the over all availability of the older series have helped usher in a new generation of the fans. These things wax and wane, but like the X-Men, Star Wars, and some others Transformers will stick around, going through periodic bursts of wildly huge popularity. The one advantage Transformers have over some properties, like Star Wars or Star Trek, is that it has an inherent reboot-ability. We expect the series to keep coming back, each time with a new take. This approach adds life span to the property as a cultural phenomena and helps ensure it's not going anywhere any time soon.

Cliffjumper wrote:* Segue: Obviously DotM the film has done superb business, even allowing for inflation compared to the first two, but I'd be surprised if the crossover for seen the film/bought a toy is anywhere near as high as it is for, say, an episode of the cartoon.

Yeaaaa....

The DOTM toys are just kind of sitting there, taking up shelf space. The economy, plus the summer release date, makes for crappy sales. Doesn't matter what it is. This time of year is murder on toy sales. ROTF at least had the holiday season to help sales. With the few things we've seen from Hasbro leads me to think that they are aware of this and aren't trying to overproduce a toyline that won't move, or create toys for waves that'll never see the stores. Wal*Mart has already reduced DOTM Voyagers to $15 and the exclusive 2 pack is $13 on clearance. Wal*Mart usually takes forever to lower prices on anything, so that should tell you something.

However, if my observations are correct, the Generations line is still selling nice and strong, better then DOTM even.

Yeh, the DotM line feels a little like a... contractual obligation line, if you follow. I realise it's not necessarily accurate, but it almost feels like someone's gone "well, if Bay/Paramount are bringing out another film, we might as well put a few figures out". Again, I've not done the maths, but percentage-wise it feels like there are very few "all-new" concepts in the line, with a lot of either recolours, retools or remakes. I mean, it looks like the toys of three fairly prominent on-screen characters - Que, Soundwave and Leadfoot - are going to be squeezed into the tail end of the line (and we're surely not going to see a transforming Dino at this stage - maybe in some Generations-style line a few years down the line, but not in DotM), which would have been pretty unthinkable a couple of years ago. The first Movie line and RotF were sort-of main events for Transformers, DotM seems to be just another line.

I think Hasbro have got high hopes for Prime, probably helped by (if I'm correct in thinking) it being entirely owned by them and done 'in-house' - no other networks involved, no licenses, no complications. There's definitely a feeling they're trying to keep the decks clear for it - which is great, the cartoon's been superb and the toyline looks very, very promising - I'll certainly be buying everyone on-screen, especially as they look to have taken robot mode scale into account.

These things wax and wane, but like the X-Men, Star Wars, and some others Transformers will stick around, going through periodic bursts of wildly huge popularity.

Yeh, sorry, this is more what I wanted to say - I don't think we're going to have anything like the slide in popularity of the late 1980s/early 1990s, Hasbro's much-improved brand management and the constant influx of new fans young and old will keep things ticking over nicely. But 2007 was like 1985 all over again, and things seemed to have dropped back from that stage.

I sort of agree that DOTM and the entire transformers phenomenon around it is not of the same caliber as ROTF. Speaking about toylines, mind you.

TFTM in 2007 introduced new, complex designs into the TF mythos and most toys struggled to stay true to their onscreen counterparts. ROTF expanded on the cast of characters and perfected transformation methods\car likeness\car accuracy when pitted next to each other and so on.

DOTM had few new things to offer. Could they top ROTF Leader Class Prime? Theoretically yes, but they didn't. All returning autobots got mediocre toys in every way when compared to their ROTF counterparts. The scaling down because of the mechtech weapons did not help the casual consumer when checking their already high by european standards, at least, prices.

It's not that the line had filler bots, it's just that almost everything until now was a rehash\new but inferior version of the characters.

It's a theory of mine that we're going to see another spoof\remake of classics in the coming years. By marketing standards, who's going to sell better, Trailbreaker, Hoist and Skids or yet another round of Prime, Starscream and Megatron?

I have very high hopes for TF Prime in general, as a show and toyline. It's been discussed that for that series, at least, Hasbro is taking a more "entertainment" approach rather than a "sell toys NAO" motif they're using thus far.

Cliffjumper wrote:Yeh, the DotM line feels a little like a... contractual obligation line, if you follow. I realise it's not necessarily accurate, but it almost feels like someone's gone "well, if Bay/Paramount are bringing out another film, we might as well put a few figures out". Again, I've not done the maths, but percentage-wise it feels like there are very few "all-new" concepts in the line, with a lot of either recolours, retools or remakes.

Bingo.

There are a few gems out of the DOTM line, one new toy size class and some fairly nice toys, but the main gimmicks have fallen flat. Namely Cyberverse and Mechtech.

The reduced size Scouts, rebranding them as Cyberverse Commanders was a neat idea. As long as they are doing Legends sized figures, why not make some of the larger Transformers actually larger? The failing was the price point. The early commanders are just too small. Hatchet is probably the best out of the lot in terms of size.

The Mechtech weapons, again a neat idea on paper, but in plastic they are too bulky most of the time, and the inability to lock them open on anything less then a voyager stinks. The few decent ones are hampered by the rest of the dregs and that one failing. Also doesn't help it looks like they came up with 8 designs and are just recycling them over and over again.

This is not to say that the line didn't have some good stuff. The HA Basic figures are a neat idea and have a few really well done modes. The engineering was taken up a notch or two with several of the figures, but for the most part it feels a lot like it's ROTF 2.0.

What would you consider "all new"? Anything that's not a remold, recolor, or remake of an older toy?

Knightdramon wrote:The scaling down because of the mechtech weapons did not help the casual consumer when checking their already high by european standards, at least, prices.

In the US, prices actually fell a few bucks with the new line. Rather then $12.99 for a deluxe it dropped to $10.99, or $9.99 at Wal*Mart.

I agree on the mech-tech crap, most of them look like guns found on a super deformed robot anime or something. The autobots have new additions on their ranks but besides two of them at the first waves, the other two are on the tail end of the line and one is a target exclusive, of all things. No word on Dino yet.

The only HA basic I like [don't have any] is that first wave...motorcycle\big scooter that turns into a huge gun reminiscent of those turret cannons from WFC. The other HA are rehashes of older releases and two Wreckers out of three.

In the US the figures might be on sale or something on the stores\chains you mentioned, but here in Greece at least, deluxes are +2 euros and everything else is +5 euros from ROTF. That's a lot of cash for something smaller than what came before it.

*I only have Shockwave out of the entire DOTM line. He works great as a WFC Shockwave because he's just a tad bigger than Megatron, but looks pathetic next to LDR Starscream and Megatron from ROTF.

Thunderwave wrote:The Mechtech weapons, again a neat idea on paper, but in plastic they are too bulky most of the time, and the inability to lock them open on anything less then a voyager stinks. The few decent ones are hampered by the rest of the dregs and that one failing. Also doesn't help it looks like they came up with 8 designs and are just recycling them over and over again.

Post of the MechTech weapons look like they were designed separately and then just slung on figures at random, and even the better ones are just too big for the robot modes - Sideswipe's, for example; it's not even like he can shoulder the thing, he's left waving it around like it's a pistol when it's twice the mass of his arm. It's Liefield-esque, and reminds me of those G2 Autobot cars with their huge water cannons stuck on. And I'm sure the non-locking thing must take a lot of the fun out of it for kids too. The only MechTech that's really impressed me is that on Leader Ironhide, and that's because he doesn't really have proper MechTech. I could give or take MechAlive, but at least it didn't get in the way.

What would you consider "all new"? Anything that's not a remold, recolor, or remake of an older toy?

Yeh, basically - a fresh concept. I realise the likes of Ironhide, Jolt, Barricade and Sideswipe are actually new figures, but seeing as they're working from 2-4 year old basic designs and just engineering the figures for higher CGI accuracy, it doesn't feel like a brand new figure, if you follow. It's probably a harsh way to judge things, but it's the way I see it.

I don't actually pay much attention to HA, I must confess, as I only occasionally look at the figures that coincide with my own buying habits (i.e. the chance of getting a better-looking version of a screen character), and Cyberverse interested me in theory until I saw most of the figures (great for kids, though I do think they're overpriced for what they are).

But compared to RotF (four Constructicons, Jolt, Sideswipe, the two sets of Twins, the girl-bikes, Jetfire, Soundwave, Sideways, Wheelie, Ravage etc. - not to mention a raft of non-film characters across multiple size classes) there seems to be a lack of imagination. We could sit here and argue over how many of these figures were any good, but truth is Hasbro must have added 30-40 fresh concepts, rather than upgrades, to the line.

It might just be my focus (the 'standard' Scout/Deluxe/Voyager/Leader figures) distorting things

Knightdramon wrote:No word on Dino yet.

I honestly think the upcoming batch with Que and Soundwave will be the last new DotM moulds, and that we'd have seen something of Dino by now if he was happening.

In the US the figures might be on sale or something on the stores\chains you mentioned, but here in Greece at least, deluxes are +2 euros and everything else is +5 euros from ROTF. That's a lot of cash for something smaller than what came before it.

Yup, standard RRP seems to have crept up by about £1/2 here, and they were pretty steep anyway - IIRC it's £12.99 for a Deluxe (which is $20, as near to twice the price as makes no difference).

It's worth remembering that as big as the original iterations were in the 80's, the films have reached a far, far wider audience, the franchise (or effectively just the movie version) is more popular and well known than it has even been. Optimus Prime and Bumblebee are genuine noughties (teenies?) cinema icons. That's fairly extrodinary even compared to the success (with the target audience of kids) of the Unicron stuff just a couple of years before and I think is far more than any of us expected.

I think what will really hurt the popularity of Transformers as it is now is when we get a film that does badly at the box office. Just by law of averages they'll likely be one sooner rather than later as the films go on, and one big sized flop can really kill the momentum a series has built up (look at the near mortal blow Nemesis helped deliver to Trek for the best part of a decade).

I think, though, that Transfomers would be more resilient to something like that because the range of demographics into it. The films have already given Hasbro a foothold and a bunch of new fans, young as well as old. Now they've got that foothold they can build with Prime and so on, not to mention a steady influx of new or returning fans.

In the meantime, they're grateful for what further films can bring in, but no longer reliant - if TF4 tanks, fine, they loose the fair-weather adult audience (who probably don't account for a lot of toy sales anyway... I wonder how many adults who weren't already fans, or at least your geeky toy-collecting types, have actually bought any figures off the back of being impressed by the films?), which probably wouldn't affect their sales to kids.

It's toy sales where Hasbro really make their killing - whatever cut of the films' profits, like comic license fees and cartoon DVD sales, are just a nice little bonus providing they're able to keep the momentum of the toyline going.

I do think we're coming down from a peak slightly, and that Transformers is 'fading' to the level of being just another successful, well-known toyline rather than a particularly hot property, but I don't think the descent is going to be all that steep at all.

EDIT: Was the Unicron Trilogy stuff all that successful? I know Armada sold very well, but Energon and Cybertron didn't seem to go as much, and Classics & the first film seemed to arrive just in time to give toy sales a real shot in the arm when they were on a gradual wane from 01/02... That said, I always thought pretty much everything from BW to Cybertron was largely solid rather than spectacular in terms of units shifted (though BM seemingly did not so good, if not G2-bad). Obviously they must have all done pretty well or Hasbro wouldn't have kept making the things, but there was never really a point where any sort of breakthrough "Transformers-mania" kicked off.

The sheer amount of people who think the franchise 'went away' midway through G1 and has been 'revived' for the films is an indication of how little impression the intervening stuff made on the general public. Normal people aren't aware of respectably successful toylines, only the really big sellers.

I'd love to see sales figures for the line over the past couple of decades, shame Hasbro keep the data locked away.

Cliffjumper wrote: It's toy sales where Hasbro really make their killing - whatever cut of the films' profits, like comic license fees and cartoon DVD sales, are just a nice little bonus providing they're able to keep the momentum of the toyline going.

I do think we're coming down from a peak slightly, and that Transformers is 'fading' to the level of being just another successful, well-known toyline rather than a particularly hot property, but I don't think the descent is going to be all that steep at all.

This is not a bad thing. Hasbro considers Transformers a core product line for them. I'll take slower, but steady, over a flash in the pan any week.

Cliffjumper wrote:The sheer amount of people who think the franchise 'went away' midway through G1 and has been 'revived' for the films is an indication of how little impression the intervening stuff made on the general public. Normal people aren't aware of respectably successful toylines, only the really big sellers.

Depends on the generation of person you are talking to. Some of my generation think that simply because when G2 hit we where busy being teenagers. Girls, at that time, where infinity more interesting then a kids show about giant robots.

I work with a number of people, ranging from my age all the way down to 18. After talking with a bunch of them, they all seem to remember the Transformers that was on when they where a kid, as well as a little of the series before it, but rarely afterward. It's a good dose of generational awareness.

Cliffjumper wrote:I'd love to see sales figures for the line over the past couple of decades, shame Hasbro keep the data locked away.

Again,considering Hasbro considers Transformers a core brand, things must be going well for it.

Although I'm curious as to what's next. I know Prime is starting up and Generations is going to continue, but how long until they go back to the beginning of Classics and start redoing characters? I don't know about you, but I wouldn't mind if they went back and redid, say, Prowl. Might kick more money, and interest, back into the line again.

Yeh, I'd just love to see data comparing how much of a jump there was from the Unicron Trilogy stuff to the movie.

I think they're in Prime for the long run, myself. There's a definite sense of very careful planning in this whole 'Aligned' continuity thing, and from the first season of the show, and what we've seen announced for the toyline, they're really pacing themselves rather than throwing the Prime version of whoever in (though I'm only up to about episode 19, so no spoilers along the lines of sixty characters suddenly appearing kplsthnx =D).

My guess is they're trying to do another Generation 1 that'll run for five, six plus years, and having learnt from their mistakes - e.g. to shift a new Prime toy, you just need to make a new Optimus figure better than the last one, not butcher him and replace him with someone you've just made up.

I can see Generations or some iteration thereof remaining on hand as a filler/complimentary/off-season line. The thing worth considering is that Classics was five years ago now - they're not too far from being able to go back and start reusing characters from the first year. Okay, maybe not so great for long-term fans to get another Classics-style Optimus Prime when they've already got one (though if it's better, there won't be many complaints) rather than some fairly obscure G1 character who hasn't been Classicified, but it'll be fresh to a lot of consumers.

The live-action stuff seems to have shown Hasbro that people will 'upgrade' figures in respectable numbers and buy a new tweaked version of a popular character, rather than packing every single line with all-new characters like G1 did (with a handful of exceptions), and I think we're going to see the line move in that direction.

Personally I think it's a good thing on the whole as long as there are some new ideas in there as well - it means there's a chance there's going to be a revisited Smokescreen who isn't completely lame at some point in the future, while it keeps the more popular, famous characters on the shelves for kids and other newcomers. Take Desert Tracker Ratchet, for example - for me, an easy pass as I had the Premium from the first film. But it meant someone could see the film and if they liked Ratchet walk into a store and buy him, rather than going on ebay and paying hugely inflated prices. It's win-win.

Sure, I find the DotM line slightly disappointing for those reasons, but I can see the commercial reasoning. Actually, seeing as my main recollection of toy shelves after RotF tended to involve non-screen characters largely sitting there while on-screen stuff went better, they'd be daft not to. The line didn't do a huge amount for me as a collector, but then I wouldn't be the main target.

Cliffjumper wrote:
I can see Generations or some iteration thereof remaining on hand as a filler/complimentary/off-season line. The thing worth considering is that Classics was five years ago now - they're not too far from being able to go back and start reusing characters from the first year. Okay, maybe not so great for long-term fans to get another Classics-style Optimus Prime when they've already got one (though if it's better, there won't be many complaints) rather than some fairly obscure G1 character who hasn't been Classicified, but it'll be fresh to a lot of consumers.

This I'd like to see. Toy tech has come a long way since then. My Universe Prowl, a figure only 4 years old, looks kinds lame/sad along side the rest of my Classics Autobots, which are mostly newer figures. Don't get me wrong, he's still a good toy, but there is a lot they could of done to improve him. Or Ironhide/Ratchet. Or Megatron/Galvatron.

As a collector it would be awesome. However it's also shown people are more likely to buy a toy for a child they remember. After all, are you more likely to buy a Prowl toy, or a Streetwise one, or a new, young fan?

My hapless brain meanderings:

DOTM seems a relatively feeble line. I'm not sure if its me, the plastics present on a lot of the toys seem to be a lot softer and duller than on previous TF toys. Few figures look as crisp as their ROTF/HFTD counterparts. The human alliance basics have snuck under the radar (in the UK at least where its only Argos who have these on the high street) which is a shame because these offer great value for money (even at inflated european prices). For £10 you get a robot and human action figure. The robots are roughly just above the Scout Class size and are excellent MASK-style fun and I like that you can pick up four of the basic figures for the cost of a regular Alternators-sized HA figure. Enormous fun and a line well worth a look-see (although Icepick and Drag Strip don't seem to be of the same quality as Backfire and Sandstorm).

There doesn't seem to have been the same buzz around DOTM as ROTF, and even though its taken loads of money at the box office, its not come out with the same thunder.

I do wonder if sometimes Hasbro over egg the pudding with running so many toylines concurrently - last year in particular was a right old jumble of concepts - particularly when there's different tie-in media to support it.

The fortunes of some lines in the UK are perhaps more readily apparent. The stuff that makes a big splash in the states generally gets a big push at retail; Beast Wars , Armada and the Movie stuff all stood out on the shelves. Everything else has just sort of come and gone. However, i think this is in part due to huge array of product available that a small market such as the UK simply cannot support. International release schedules have also in the past nixed some lines. Beast Wars was truncated to accomodate Beast Machines (which seem to have had a grudging release over here) which was dropped in favour of RiD. This has been smoothed in recent years by just giving us waves 1 & 2 of everything, so there's at least a representative sample.

Another good way of judging the popularity or otherwise of a toyline over here is the page space given over to it in the Argos catalogue!

EDIT: Ooops, too long typing, this is in response to Thunderwave

Yeh, I think - with a couple of years inbetween and a few new faces alongside to keep long-term buyers interested (not just fans, but kids who stick with the line from 6, 7 years old to early teens; it's fair to suppose through peer pressure, interest in sex and generally wanting to be grown up that trying to pitch to 13-19 year olds is always going to be tricky) it would be a win/win situation.

I remember a lot of fan discussion around the UT era going on about how bored they were of it always being Prime v Megatron and so many of the same old faces, but I think the success of Clasiversations, Animated and the films has shown that it's always going to be the winning choice, and it's not like the fiction's been particularly stale or the toys lazy or anything as a result. As long as we don't end up like Japan and have Convoy toys outnumbering everyone else put together 3:1.

And as long as Prime, Megatron, Bumblebee and Starscream are out there shifting big units there's going to be the profits for Hasbro to sling out something a bit more left-field like Straxus, Skids or Bludgeon alongside them. The last five years have surely shown that if the brand as a whole is doing well there're benefits for all the fans, regardless of how they feel about the Bay stuff or Animated or whatever.

We're a pretty lucky fandom on the whole, and it's not too much of an exaggeration to say we've never had it so good.

Though I would like to see more Omnibots.

Skyquake87 wrote:I do wonder if sometimes Hasbro over egg the pudding with running so many toylines concurrently - last year in particular was a right old jumble of concepts - particularly when there's different tie-in media to support it.

I think the 2010 line (remember, HFTD, RTS etc. are effectively fan names, I doubt many members of Joe Public noticed the defintions) was a conscious attempt from Hasbro to see how much they could blend the various styles without alienating customers.

Everything else has just sort of come and gone. However, i think this is in part due to huge array of product available that a small market such as the UK simply cannot support. International release schedules have also in the past nixed some lines.

Yeh, it always felt like our penance for getting reissues a decade early and another couple of years of G1 was to have everything else struggle for about a decade - G2 didn't even seem to have the brief initial success it had in America, BW flopped despite a bit of an early push and BM was a non-event. RiD and Armada seemed to do fairly well, though - they're probably the last lines we actually got close to a full range for, for starters.

But yeh, now we seem to be on two lines a year there just aren't enough stores and customers in the UK to support the same size lines as the USA - a lot of the UK is still a fair distance from TRUs, and Argos is about the only high street chain left which stock a half-decent selection. Aside from that it's supermarkets, which are rarely reliable and always likely to replace it with another hot fad, and the dwindling number of independants and Toymasters/Entertainers. A lot of fans in rural areas probably go with online ordering to save petrol and the roulette of what's likely to be on the shelves (and often save money against retail prices to boot), which probably doesn't help sales much.

Cliffjumper wrote:I can see Generations or some iteration thereof remaining on hand as a filler/complimentary/off-season line. The thing worth considering is that Classics was five years ago now - they're not too far from being able to go back and start reusing characters from the first year. Okay, maybe not so great for long-term fans to get another Classics-style Optimus Prime when they've already got one (though if it's better, there won't be many complaints) rather than some fairly obscure G1 character who hasn't been Classicified, but it'll be fresh to a lot of consumers.

They're already doing this. There are already four new Optimus molds that fall under the vague 'Classics' banner, three Megatrons and two Bumblebees and Cliffjumpers. If you include same-character redecos you could add Hot Rod, Cyclonus and Starscream to the list of guys who've been redone, and if you count Legends you've got multiple Jazzes, Warpaths, Prowls and Hounds too, at the very least.

But the fact that so few people realize how much character reuse has gone on is, I think, a testament to how good a job they've done of it so far. In spite of having a pile of Primes and Megatrons, each one of them is very different from the others and brings something unique to the table. And even the straight redecos like Hot Rod or Cyclonus manage to be very different from each other.

Cliffjumper wrote: I remember a lot of fan discussion around the UT era going on about how bored they were of it always being Prime v Megatron and so many of the same old faces, but I think the success of Clasiversations, Animated and the films has shown that it's always going to be the winning choice, and it's not like the fiction's been particularly stale or the toys lazy or anything as a result.

That's because they keep changing up Prime and Megatron in various ways. Classic Megatron was a bumbling leader with too mach power and outrageous schemes that a 9 year old would think up using Troll Science. Animated Megatron was smart, powerful, and manipulative. Prime Megatron is a dangerous psychotic with entirely too much personal power.

Classic Prime was a strong, fatherly leader. Animated he was the rookie with good intentions, lots of talent, but little experience. Prime he seems to be the wise, caring leader that's not afraid to make hard call and always takes the morally high road, even if it hurts.

Matter of fact, through most of the series, they make subtle little changes to the characters. New takes on old concepts and faces. Add in some new ones, like say Bulkhead and Lugnut, and they add to the mix of established characters that the writers have to pull from. G1 already introduced a stupidly large number of characters, many of whom had little characterization. By keeping the line going, and using some of the lesser knowns in addition to the "Big 6*", will help keep the line from going stale.

*Big 6 meaning the 6 characters that show up repeatedly. Megatron, Starscream, Soundwave, Optimus Prime, Bumblebee, and Ratchet.

Cliffjumper wrote:I think, though, that Transfomers would be more resilient to something like that because the range of demographics into it. The films have already given Hasbro a foothold and a bunch of new fans, young as well as old. Now they've got that foothold they can build with Prime and so on, not to mention a steady influx of new or returning fans.

Though most of those demographics are only into the films, even if Prime manages G1 levels of success (within the US, for reasons discussed in subsequent posts I doubt it'll get much of a foothold in the UK. Though the Titan comic looks to be changing from the films to Prime with the October issue that's small potatoes) that will only be a tiny part of the total audience the films have reached.

On a tangent, I wonder how many of the kids who watch/ed Animated and Prime just look at them as film spin offs rather than entities in their own right?

EDIT: Was the Unicron Trilogy stuff all that successful? I know Armada sold very well, but Energon and Cybertron didn't seem to go as much, and Classics & the first film seemed to arrive just in time to give toy sales a real shot in the arm when they were on a gradual wane from 01/02... That said, I always thought pretty much everything from BW to Cybertron was largely solid rather than spectacular in terms of units shifted (though BM seemingly did not so good, if not G2-bad). Obviously they must have all done pretty well or Hasbro wouldn't have kept making the things, but there was never really a point where any sort of breakthrough "Transformers-mania" kicked off.

Relatively I think the UT stuff was succesful, not in the league of the films and behind the big impact G1 made but genuinely successful for Hasbro. I think the telling thing is that when presented with a third cartoon that wasn't supposed to be part of that universe Hasbro reworked it in the dub to make it so despite the difficulties this presented. Considering that they hadn't previously been bothered about running disparate series back to back (BM, RID and Armada all pretty much run into each other don't they?) that suggests they thought they were onto a good thing and wanted to keep it going, at least up till the point the films were on the horizon.

Of course, the fact Takara did try to make Galaxy Force its own thing implies they weren't having so much luck with it, but their handling of Transformers being a bit wonky is what ultimately led to them being in a position to be brought up.

As far as I can recall, Armada did very well over here. Key to its success was the cartoon not being 'lost' to satelite*. It's funny, but the five main terrestrial channels are still the ones with the biggest audience reach, despite the sheer volume of channels now available. so having that front and centre on saturday morning telly certainly helped. It's strong focus on playability made it a big hit with kids - my nephew and his friends were all into it for a time. In some ways, it's a shame it didn't retain the Armada title as the moment the line switched to Energon, there was a notable cooling in interest. As I enjoy physical shopping over the joyless button pushing of online consumerism, there are only three recent Transformers toylines that I have seen children actively interested in and pestering parents about : Beast Wars, Armada and the Movie stuff. i just don't think that new kids toylines and cartoon shows have quite the same reach and impact as they used to do. Although Power Rangers has soldiered on, the only new show to make much of a dent in the last few years has been Ben10.

*As an aside, now that 95% of children's television is now on dedicated satelite channels, and with the BBC set to follow suit it will be interesting to see how this affects both the development of new programmes (ITV don't do any now since Jamie Oliver's healthy eating campaign wiped out their advertising revenue preventing the likes of McDonalds, Kellogs and Walkers advertising during kids TV) and futrure sales of toys. It seems a bit sad to be witnessing the end of a dedicated few hours of kids TV on channels everyone can watch. Watching my nephew grow up has been interesting. Since about the age of four, traditional toys have largely been discarded in favour of X-box, DS and so on and a multitude of (from my pov) complex and brutal games, with any toys that he did recieve being gratefully recieved but quickly forgotten about, whilst the X-box has kept his attention. Toys just don'[t seem to be played with in the same way these days. Even now, when I'm playing with my Transformers, i imagine the conversations they're having and the battles they are fighting (and when no one else is around I do do voices and shooty sound effects!) and i wonder if kids nowadays roleplay like this...sigh. i am old.

Skyquake87 wrote:It seems a bit sad to be witnessing the end of a dedicated few hours of kids TV on channels everyone can watch.

Hasn't this been the case for some time, though? I mean, the process has been slow, certainly, but inexorable. Truthfully, Saturday/Sunday morning cartoons were starting the slow descent into irrelevance even when I was still (kind of) young enough to watch. First, they replaced everything worth watching with psuedo-educational programming; then, they started paring down how often they showed them, and in how large of blocks. It was only natural that it would all make its way to cable or satellite, given that the last show worth watching on weekends was, what, Recess?

Watching my nephew grow up has been interesting. Since about the age of four, traditional toys have largely been discarded in favour of X-box, DS and so on and a multitude of (from my pov) complex and brutal games, with any toys that he did recieve being gratefully recieved but quickly forgotten about, whilst the X-box has kept his attention. Toys just don'[t seem to be played with in the same way these days.

Keep in mind, though, that your nephew does not necessarily represent children as a whole. I know several people with children whose kids love playing with toys, while there are several whose kids have never had much interest in such things. Those that do enjoy the toys, play with them in much the way one would expect (and in much the way as I and my friends did when we were children).

Every child is different, and no one kid represents a microcosm of the whole. For every kid that enjoys going out and running around, there'll be one that prefers to stay indoors; for every one that prefers playing with action figures/dolls/LEGO/what have you, there'll be one that would much rather play Halo.