TFARCHIVE FORUMS

I'm not a big fan of the Ultimate titles in general, and rank both Ultimate X-Men and Ultimate Spiderman pretty low, certainly below New X-Men and Amazing Spiderman... but my recent dropping of Avengers [if I ever meet Geoff Johns I'll tear his ****ing windpipe out and beat him to death with the tonsil end] and constant good word of mouth persuaded me to pick up Ultimates 5-7, and all I can say is "wow"! It's great stuff, and I quite like the slightly fascistic Captain America - it's a much better angle than the anti-terrorist stuff in the latest regular Cap series. Love Hank too, he's got his best costume ever, and I'm intruiged to see where his recent fight with Jan goes. Best bit, though, is the political Thor, and the slightly dark back drop of the Ultimates being government-backed media figures to win them more approval... and is there any doubt Nick Fury's modelled on Samuel L. Jackson? The Freddie Prinze Jr. thing is a nice bizarre touch too...

And is that really Bryan "Marvel UK" Hitch doing that brilliant artwork? He wasn't bad before, but, like, wow...

I've read issue #7 and am still waiting for a friend to loan me the damn trade that has issues 1-6 reprinted... Interesting take on Avengers, though. The only complaint my friend has had is that it takes a while for things to develop.

And yup, Bryan Hitch has been doing some nice work lately. His work with Paul Neary on both Stormwatch and The Authority is excellent as well.

YOu guys need to pick up Issues #1-5, especially #1 and 5. Has a great WWII Cap story, and Hulk is unleashed on Manhattan, good stuff. Not sure why the didn't name the title the Avengers? Cliffy did you enjoy the Universe X Cap one shot?

Haven't to date... I'm still catching up on several titles... I'm less and less sure of the Marvel Knights anti-terrorist angle the more I read the issues I've picked up on it... Bringing something like 9/11 into the Marvel Universe raises the horrid question of why none of literally dozens of active heroes in the Big Apple [plus SHIELD etc.] didn't actually do anything...

I've read scans of the first few issues of Ultimates, though it reads a lot better on paper [most comics do ]... I didn't realise there was a trade of 1-6 out, and it'll be right at the top of my hit-list... I think back issue prices for the first 2-3 are about the price of the book, I'd expect... Yeh, I am not to sure of the name, the Ultimates sounds a little generic... even then, I'd prefer if the group in the book were called the Avengers... Though Ultimate Avengers does sound a little clumsy...

Wasn't too impressed with the opening ish of Ultimate War, though, to be honest...

...He will after this topic personally I HATE all of Marvel's "Ultimate"
comics and here is why:

Ultimate Spider-Man: A needless rehash of old stories that didn't need updating.
Sucks

Ulitmate X-Men:
A crappy rip-off the cool X-Men movie more X-men crap fom Marvel
Crap

The Ultimates: The new take on Avengers via Watchmen
If I want more violent heroes I'll read Watchmen.
Crap that sucks

Ultimate Adventures:
Please God let Captian Marvel win the U-Decide contest.

Originally posted by Cyberstrike nTo
[B
Ulitmate X-Men:
A crappy rip-off the cool X-Men movie more X-men crap fom Marvel
Crap

The Ultimates: The new take on Avengers via Watchmen
If I want more violent heroes I'll read Watchmen.
Crap that sucks

[/B]

The X-men movie was cool? Explain pleasse, need I remind you of Halle Berrys lines:eyebrow:

Watchmen is over ten years old it had its hey day yet doesn't hold up to well compared with other titles. Astro City I quite enjoy better, yet I also believe that Alan Moore is overrated.

Originally posted by Cyberstrike nTo
[BThe Ultimates: The new take on Avengers via Watchmen
If I want more violent heroes I'll read Watchmen.
Crap that sucks
[/B]

Could anyone tell me if Ultimates has been nominated for anything with regard to the Wizard awards? Cos if it has, apparently I don't have to construct a viable argument, that alone is enough to undermine any negative points...

I hate them and that is my OPIOION end of story

Originally posted by Cyberstrike nTo
I hate them and that is my OPIOION end of story

FOR ****'S SAKE, THERE IS NO SUCH BLOODY WORD! THE WORD IS ****ING OPINION! WERE YOU BORN THAT STUPID, OR HAVE YOU BEEN PRACTISING?

And also you tried to repel an opinion-based post in G1 on the grounds that Lee has been nominated for a Wizard award. What's the matter? Realised it was an incredibly **** argument and changed your mind?

Originally posted by Quicksilver
FOR ****'S SAKE, THERE IS NO SUCH BLOODY WORD! THE WORD IS ****ING OPINION! WERE YOU BORN THAT STUPID, OR HAVE YOU BEEN PRACTISING?

And also you tried to repel an opinion-based post in G1 on the grounds that Lee has been nominated for a Wizard award. What's the matter? Realised it was an incredibly **** argument and changed your mind?

Quicksliver calm down!

I don't like any of the Ultimates they all suck in my OPINION and flaming me is not going to change my mind about the Ultimates if you are trying to start a flame war with me don't bother because I won't sink to that level with you or anyone else here.

As to the
"Dreamwave Disater" topic:
I said the story upon re-reading it WAS/IS LIKE YOU SAID not all that good so in other word you converted me from being
a TF:G1 Scarrni(or how ever you spell his name) fan! in other words: YOU WON half the of the arugment in that topic! Congratulations!
To me the art in G1 was the best thing in the series!
I know Pat Lee is nominated for a Wizard Award for fav penciler and so did Jim Lee and John Cassady two other great artist in two great books that I read.
So who do think I should vote for:
Pat Lee
Jim Lee
John Cassady?


and BTW:
I've always liked Pat Lee artwork before G1 and I'll like it after G1,
and as far as editing this post I'm just trying to save bandwidth
ok?

Originally posted by Quicksilver
I'm not a big fan of the Ultimate titles in general, and rank both Ultimate X-Men and Ultimate Spiderman pretty low, certainly below New X-Men and Amazing Spiderman... but my recent dropping of Avengers [if I ever meet Geoff Johns I'll tear his ****ing windpipe out and beat him to death with the tonsil end] and constant good word of mouth persuaded me to pick up Ultimates 5-7, and all I can say is "wow"! It's great stuff, and I quite like the slightly fascistic Captain America - it's a much better angle than the anti-terrorist stuff in the latest regular Cap series. Love Hank too, he's got his best costume ever, and I'm intruiged to see where his recent fight with Jan goes. Best bit, though, is the political Thor, and the slightly dark back drop of the Ultimates being government-backed media figures to win them more approval... and is there any doubt Nick Fury's modelled on Samuel L. Jackson? The Freddie Prinze Jr. thing is a nice bizarre touch too...

And is that really Bryan "Marvel UK" Hitch doing that brilliant artwork? He wasn't bad before, but, like, wow...

What is your problem Geoff Jones if you don't my asking?

- His first 2 issues were terrible
- Poor charatcerisation [Jack of Hearts is suddenly an arrogant **** for no apparent reason - compare the character in Avengers 56 & Avengers 58... She-Hulk is suddenly acting like it's her first day with that 'awe' business about Cap, which seems a bit daft as she's served with Cap in the Avengers, and worked in the F4...]
- 'Zeroing' of Busiek's work - interesting characterisations undone on the spot
- boring, uninteresting plot [some guy with a giant key steals the worl'd big cities - sorry, when did I start reading a bad Star Trek parody?]
- He's following the current comic trend of reinventing when no reinvention was necessary... The Avengers has probably been the most consistently good comic book of the past 4/5 years, so why does some jumped up Wizard fave need to start messing with it?
- Bringing in characters simply because he can, rather than actually for plot reasons - Namor, T'Challa.

He could have got better. But, I've got better things to spend my money on than chancing it.

Ok first off, Cliffy, do you only read Marvel comics? If so, you need to branch out, there are a lot of great comics that you are missing out on.

Secondly, Cyberstrike, Alan Moore overrated? Are you nuts? Have you ever read a comic written by Alan Moore that was bad? I haven't and I've read a whole lot of Alan Moore comics. He's certainly the best writer working on comics right now. As for your "OPINION", if you don't want it criticized, keep it to yourself. I, for one, am tired of hearing you talk about how you think a piece of crap comic is good and that we can't disagree because it's your opinion. Well guess what? My OPINION is that your taste in comics sucks ass.

As for the topic, I don't read the Ultimate titles. I don't because I really don't care all that much for Spider-man and I care way too much about the X-Men. The idea for those titles is that you don't need to know all the history for those characters because they are reinventing them. The problem for me is that I do know the history for those characters and I don't want them reinvented. It's all good if others like the books but I'm a little too "old skool" for them.

How come no one ever talks about Sandman? I've read the first 5 TPBs and this is some of the coolest stuff I've ever read.

Originally posted by Hound
How come no one ever talks about Sandman? I've read the first 5 TPBs and this is some of the coolest stuff I've ever read.

I think Sandman has become the "trump card" for me. Bring it out if you want to win the argument.

It's one of the few comics that has made me re-evaluate, if just a little bit, my place in the world. That's something that none of my other favorite comics has ever accomplished. I guess most people aren't ready to be challenged by their comics that much. Some people aren't looking for deep reading -- they're just looking for entertainment. Both are valid forms, of course, just very different animals...

I've been meaning to go back and reread my Sandman collection, and I guess now's as good a time as any. Should make a nice companion to the Cerebus books, as well as Preacher, which a friend is loaning me. Post a Sandman topic and I'll certainly reply to it, belive me.

And as far as the reinvention of the X-Men? I'm with you wholeheartedly. I like the older characters and don't need updated versions fo them. Lord knows that everyone's gotten a "secondary mutation" in the main titles anyway, hopefully they can stop the madness there...

Originally posted by Hound
Secondly, Cyberstrike, Alan Moore overrated? Are you nuts? Have you ever read a comic written by Alan Moore that was bad? I haven't and I've read a whole lot of Alan Moore comics. He's certainly the best writer working on comics right now. As for your "OPINION", if you don't want it criticized, keep it to yourself. I, for one, am tired of hearing you talk about how you think a piece of crap comic is good and that we can't disagree because it's your opinion. Well guess what? My OPINION is that your taste in comics sucks ass.
How come no one ever talks about Sandman? I've read the first 5 TPBs and this is some of the coolest stuff I've ever read.

When did I say Alan Moore was overrated?
I honestly don't know wth you're talking about.
If you meant the earlier post what I mean't was and I would rather read the Watchmen because that it is far better in every way than the Ultimates.



My OPINION being criticized was not the problem it was how Quicksliver criticized it by cheap insults and and trying to start
a flame war with me and to me it is not worth the trouble because in the end what would it settle?
Nothing!

I stated my opioins about all of Marvel's Ultimate comics.
Quicksilver jumped down my throat after he blasted Ultimate Spider-man and Ultimate X-Men.
I don't like them for the reasons both you and Quicksilver stated
and a few more that are more personal than factual.
Like the way Marvel canned the MC2 line to make room for the
the Ultimate Line.
I got a very wide taste of comics sooner or later we'll agree on something.

btw Sandman rocks!

Originally posted by Quicksilver
- His first 2 issues were terrible
- Poor charatcerisation [Jack of Hearts is suddenly an arrogant **** for no apparent reason - compare the character in Avengers 56 & Avengers 58... She-Hulk is suddenly acting like it's her first day with that 'awe' business about Cap, which seems a bit daft as she's served with Cap in the Avengers, and worked in the F4...]
- 'Zeroing' of Busiek's work - interesting characterisations undone on the spot
- boring, uninteresting plot [some guy with a giant key steals the worl'd big cities - sorry, when did I start reading a bad Star Trek parody?]
- He's following the current comic trend of reinventing when no reinvention was necessary... The Avengers has probably been the most consistently good comic book of the past 4/5 years, so why does some jumped up Wizard fave need to start messing with it?
- Bringing in characters simply because he can, rather than actually for plot reasons - Namor, T'Challa.
He could have got better. But, I've got better things to spend my money on than chancing it.

Ok sorry I had to ask.

*Deathscream leaves the topic*

Originally posted by Deathscream
Ok sorry I had to ask.

*Deathscream leaves the topic*

Well that is how you learn!

Cyberstrike, sorry about the Moore comment, got you mixed up with Ultimate Weapon. So any comment I made about Moore ought to be aimed at Ultimate Weapon instead. Thought I'd clear that up.

The reason Cliffy jumps down your throat is that your opinions are frequently stated in a very unintelligent way. Your defense for those opinions are often even less intelligent.

If you think Pat Lee is a great artist then give specific examples of where he does a really great job, don't say "He's nominated for an award from Wizard".

Cliffy obviously spends time thinking about his posts when he is criticizing something, I understand why he's irritated when someone rebutes his arguement with, "crap that sucks".

Personally I don't care for people who judge a comic (or anything for that matter) on it's sales figures or the amount of hype it's getting...

My thanks to Hound for summing up my views very eloquently [I know I've spelt that wrong, but.... ay!]... Basically, Cyberstrike, I've found your arguments are based on a very circular logic. I sit down and think about any serious post I make, as if it's something I find important I like to be 2 or 3 counter-arguments ahead. I've found most of your arguments to be childish and insipid, and then you just throw all your toys out of the pram which this "It's my OPINION" crap. Of course it's your opinion. But this is a discussion board. If you share an opinion, people are quite likely to debate it. Obviously they can't change your opinion, and debating doesn't mean they don't respect it. But then you can't wander around rubbishing other people's opinions, and then cry when they do the same to yours. If you think your opinions and statements are beyond reproach, why bother even posting them? I mean, unless everyone in the world either a) ignores them or b) agrees with them, you're going to have to go into tantrum mode. So grow up.

Hound, I'm afraid I don't read a great variety of non-Marvel stuff, mainly for financial reasons... I can only really afford 5/6 monthly comics most of the time, so tend to stick with 'tried & trusted'... That said, on various back-issue sprees I have picked up non-Marvel stuff, and quite simply I don't think much it has really said "hey, re-read me, praise me, go buy a few more"... I can't really explain why, but that's just the way things have struck me... That said, as soon as I do have some cash I AM getting a TPB each of Sandman and StormWatch because the amount of good things I've heard from people whose opinions I trust is very encouraging... thing is, that'll set me back about $50, so I have to wait till I've got the money to be able to splash out on something like that, and if it's not my kinda thing not be totally gutted... I tend to keep very little non-Marvel stuff [and I also have Feng-Shui-esque purges of my Marvel stuff], but most of the non-Marvel stuff I've kept is, funnily enough, Image... Warren Ellis' Ministry of Space is genius, and I've got some early issues from things like StormWatch [but it's the Ellis stuff I'll be getting in TPB ], WildC.A.T.S. and Wetworks, as well as a few Wildstorm books... I find them enjoyable for what they are - eye-candy. I also find Jim Lee and Whilce Portacio to be very visual artists, without too much over-stylisation... okay, Portacio does have a lot of stylisation, but I like it... Jim Lee's just an incredibly talented artist, though. I was going to go for his Batman stuff, but everywhere has sold out before I can get it, so I'm gonna have a shot at the TPB... money allowing, of course.

You're welcome...

I'm just gonna throw out some suggestions of non-Marvel comics that I really love. Peter David's Aquaman and Atlantis Chronicles are really great. The Hawkworld mini. The Killing Joke by Alan Moore. Batman Year One by Miller. John Byrne's Superman stuff. Mike Grell on Green Arrow. Starman by James Robinson. The Authority by Ellis (I just read the first TPB and Bryan Hitch's art is soooooo beautiful in this series). Waid and Hitch on JLA was really good too. Oh and if you don't enjoy Sandman, and no offense meant by this, there is something seriously wrong with you. I know that's mostly DC stuff but it sounded like you've probably read the same Image stuff as me and the only other publisher I've got a lot of comics from is Crossgen and I've talked enough about them in the past.

I know that is a lot of suggestions but those are some really great comics. If you ever find yourself with some extra spending cash you may want to consider picking up a few of those.

As for Marvel, how extensive is your collection? Have you got any of Byrne's old Marvel stuff? (Avengers, FF, etc.) Any old Spidey stuff? Miller's Daredevil? Those are really great, a lot of times I find that stuff way more enjoyable than what's being published by Marvel nowadays. However, I am kinda looking forward to Smith on Spidey but, like I said previously, I'm not a big fan of Spider-Man so I'm gonna pick up the first few issues and see if they "wow" me.