TFARCHIVE FORUMS

Now, I know the sci-fi elements of Red Dwarf are meant to be bollocks, I understand this fully. But is it me, or is the way they move around in a filmed documentary (which they pick up a transmission of, and don't have the physical film of) complete bollocks in total contradiction of the first half of the episode? And not at all funny to boot?

Plus they really ought to keep some of the useful shit they come across handy. Rimmer screws over Lister by giving the idea back to Thicky Holden... and Lister just gives up?

And those cheats in the medieval virtual reality game are shite - you could basically set those off accidentally in conversation ("I could do with some sort of steed cheat") in the game.

Cliffjumper wrote:Now, I know the sci-fi elements of Red Dwarf are meant to be bollocks, I understand this fully. But is it me, or is the way they move around in a filmed documentary (which they pick up a transmission of, and don't have the physical film of) complete bollocks in total contradiction of the first half of the episode? And not at all funny to boot?

Yep yep. It's also bollocks historically.

And those cheats in the medieval virtual reality game are shite - you could basically set those off accidentally in conversation ("I could do with some sort of steed cheat") in the game.

I have no knowledge of what you speak.

Two different episodes. And you're wrong. Red Dwarf holds up amazingly well. I still find it funny when I rewatch them. And you're thinking too hard. Rule of Funny and all that.

-Ss

Sixswitch wrote:Two different episodes.

What is?

Sixswitch wrote:Two different episodes.

Yup.

And you're wrong. Red Dwarf holds up amazingly well. I still find it funny when I rewatch them.

I find it... amusing. Like Dad's Army, or Only Fools. However, other shows seem to retain more punch over multiple showings - Father Ted, Drop the Dead Donkey etc.

And you're thinking too hard. Rule of Funny and all that.

Nah, rule of funny covers, say, the various problems with (the episode) Backwards, which only become evident if you go away and think about it.

The Timeslides thing doesn't work because a) it's not funny [just the docu bit, btw - the stuff with the photographs etc. in the first half is great] and b) it flatly contradicts the first half - it's emphasised how they can only move around within the 'frame' of the picture, and then it suddenly turns into a time-travel portal where they can do whatever they like through any old portal. I've no problem with the magical developing fluid itself, just the way they forget about it so they can do the "ho-ho, Lister's a rich slob" skit.

Timeslides doesn't bother me, beyond the fact that all they need is a photo of Earth from space and to create a projector big enough for Starbug to fly through and they'd be home, just never able to leave the planet again.

It never even occured to me about the film footage before (though Rimmer's still moving about within the "frame" if Holly blew up a picture of the exterior of the house). Rimmer still being around after Cat and Kryten vanish even though he was only turned on because of Lister is a bit odd though.

On the other hand, them drastically changing the shows continuity so Rimmer's been alive all along just for the sake of a joke where they kill him again (and then never mentioning it again) is genius. And makes the attempts of the American review on youtube's to sort out the shows continuity as he goes along a bit barking, bless him.

Backwards on the other hand has always bugged me, what they can and cant do forwards and things like Rimmer and Kryten having their job after they get sacked or Lister stealing the bike at the wrong end of the journey makes it feel like the idea hasn't been thought through very well, which is unusual for Red Dwarf at this point. It might not be so bad if the central joke of "Hey, if we hit the reverse button on the tape deck things look funny" gets old quickly. The forwards version on the DVD actually manages to be funnier.

I randomly started a Red Dwarf rewatch a couple of a weeks ago and just finnished season III. I think it's held up pretty well, not just the jokes but the production values are a hell of a lot better than the "Dwarf was only funny when it was cheap" people will have you believe, the model work is still the best the BBC every managed. Some of the pop culture references are a bit dated now but otherwise I've been enjoying it a lot, especially as it's been a few years since I've seen any of the early stuff so a lot of it's nicely fresh.

Yeh, just done the rewatch myself, hence the post. In a way it's a shame the vague arc stuff from the first couple is junked - I think I find less rewatch value due to the lack of consistent characterisation (how many times do they show that Rimmer isn't the shit we think he is?) going forward. The reset buttons are quite annoying, along with all the things they try only once.

I'm actually starting to develop a car-crash type love of the last two series (not so much the new stuff, which is just bad) - they're so badly timed and structured that they're fascinatingly terrible. I mean, how come no-one realised just how dreadful Kochanski is? It's like an American remake or something.

Surely if Holly blew up a screengrab of the house they can't move around beyond what's shown, though (well, Rimmer shouldn't be able to)? And how would they get a negative to put through the fluid anyway? Also, wouldn't Lister just stay in one of his pictures of old parties with the crew? And while it's not exactly a plot hole, Lister retcons his two best friends out of history (The Cat, and the 'free' Kryten)!

The thing with Backwards is it just doesn't work - if everything happens backwards, why do the newspapers report everything in reverse language? People aren't brought to life by bullets, but reverse-killed - you'd have to be looking at it from a forwards perspective to write about it in a backwards fashion, surely? It's a bit headache inducing if you do start thinking about it - I tend to try not to for that one, just because it's a bit of a mind****.

Always felt the model work was good - the budget was never really that bad (I always liked the way the first look of the Red Dwarf looked like the inside of a cargo ship). The problem with the effects in the later stuff is when they try to use them to carry scenes - like the Blue Midget bit, or the weird moment in the Don Henderson one where there's a three-minute action scene in an asteroid belt that just feels miles out of place.

WE ARE BEATING ROMA. ****ING HELL.

Cliffjumper wrote:Yeh, just done the rewatch myself, hence the post. In a way it's a shame the vague arc stuff from the first couple is junked - I think I find less rewatch value due to the lack of consistent characterisation (how many times do they show that Rimmer isn't the shit we think he is?) going forward. The reset buttons are quite annoying, along with all the things they try only once.

I'd forgotten about Arnie's early obsession with aliens entirely ("IT'S A SMEGING GARBAGE POD!"), odd that it gets dropped just before they start running into things that could easily be taken for aliens on a regular basis.

Actually, another thing I'd forgotten is that the whole "No aliens in the Universe at all" thing is from the books rather than the TV show, and that Dave's status as the last human isn't played up as much. I also hadn't realised how little Claire Grogan is actually in it, counting Psirens she still only managed one more episode than Talkie Toaster.

Oh, and as for no follow up on the timeslides: Lister presumably doesn't remember the alternate timeline so when things get restored from his POV they tried but it failed. They'd likely have run out of fluid fairly quickly as well. Just going to his old parties would be hard as well, wouldn't he already be there?

I'm actually starting to develop a car-crash type love of the last two series (not so much the new stuff, which is just bad) - they're so badly timed and structured that they're fascinatingly terrible. I mean, how come no-one realised just how dreadful Kochanski is? It's like an American remake or something.

I like chunks of VII, though tellingly it's mostly the stuff with Rimmer. I do like the explanation for what happened to the ship though, the idea that they've been chasing it for years when it was in Lister's laundry all along is actually a decent pay off. The medieval knight game stuff wins points for me thanks to Brian "Anything for a paycheck" Cox and the fit bird. The ease of the accidental use of codes might even be a poke at the fact that in Trek people have to avoid words like Exit at all costs when on the Holodeck. Well, it may be...

Always felt the model work was good - the budget was never really that bad (I always liked the way the first look of the Red Dwarf looked like the inside of a cargo ship). The problem with the effects in the later stuff is when they try to use them to carry scenes - like the Blue Midget bit, or the weird moment in the Don Henderson one where there's a three-minute action scene in an asteroid belt that just feels miles out of place.

Oh yes. I think one big sign of the difference between later and earlier Dwarf is how the Tongue Tied and Blue Midget dance sequences come off. They're both OTT dance numbers that are completely irrelevant to the plot (in fact the dream sequence even less so) and are basically just there as sops to John-Jules' ego. Yet the former winds up good silly fun whilst the later... doesn't.

It helps that Tongue-Tied isn't actually a bad song as these sorts of things go (i.e. it's not as bad as "Dayna's Song", which comes across as bizarre even in the weirdest B7 episode)... I do think the possibility of making the thing look good meant maybe scripts weren't as pedal to the metal as they might have been - some of the early stuff goes by the rule of "if we keep people laughing they won't be able to focus on the dodgy stuff".

VII wins points for most of the Ace Rimmer episode, to be honest - the opening is the only 'budget' set piece that really comes off, and then it's the only straight-ish character one to really come off as well... Compare and contrast to the various attempts to characterise Kryten later in the year, which just make me want to kill him, or Robert Llewelyn, or Doug Naylor, or anyone really, as long as it stops. Rimmer's probably the best thing in the whole show full-stop.

I've always thought it says a lot for Clare that she's the one I think of when reading the books, despite the massive, massive discrepancy in screen time. Kochanski II is such a vapid, airheaded, stereotypical little rich girl that it's basically impossible to believe Lister would have given a shit in the first place.

The first five stand up rather well, with the odd exception (Holoship, Timeslides, Waiting for God). VI is a bit of a mixed bag - the first half is genuinely great ("Gunmen" deserves the hype), the second half is ropier apart from the cracking ending, what with the two crowd-pleasing remakes chucked in.

It says a lot I can't remember any attempts at characterisation for Kryten later on, all I recall is him crying like a big girl all the time before becoming a insanely OTT camp thing for the last year. At least the last special restored him some dignity...

The Ace Rimmer thing was done exceptionally well really, if they had to write him out it was the perfect send off. I did like how they managed to bring him back and "reboot" the character without damaging that exit for the original hologram Rimmer. Though sadly Back to Earth did undo that (assuming he was supposed to be the original rather than the VIII version having died. It's not 100% clear but he remembers Back to Reality...).

I've a lot of time for VI, even shows like Emohawk and Rimmerworld which don't seem to be so popular (though with the former seeing it before the two shows it sequels probably helps). Fantastic last episode as well, how they hell they managed to come up with something that good when writing on the day with a cast reading cue cards but couldn't do it again afterwards is just mad.

One thing I do think has helped the show age well is there's very little attempt to predict future technologies (bar the odd brief fasination with triangle tapes), it's all firmly 80's stuff and that somehow seems less silly than an attempt to include holo videos or some such stuff would.

Actually, the other day I was thinking that Red Dwarf had held up pretty well.

Sure, the science is often fluff and continuity is frequently weak, but only in the service of cheap laughs.

As far as the budget goes, not having one often results in the best stuff. In so much as "shit, we've got no money, we'd best work with what we've got". Which results in physical sets, small scope and packing it with decent gags to make up for it.

Whereas having shitloads of cash to spend results in the expenditure expanding to fill the available budget. "Why build something that looks real when we can greenscreen it and have somebody CG it in afterwards! Big explosions! A tank!" and the actual plot and characterisation tends to get lost along the wayside because they've got all these new toys they can afford regardless of whether they're needed.

See also the Star Wars prequels. When I should be thinking "oooh, who's going to win between Renton and Whiny Emo Brat" I'm actually thinking "that lava planet is ****ing gorgeous. Couldn't they have spent that money on a script editor?"

Rimmer running through the cargo bay at the end of series 6 feels real because Chris is actually dodging past pillars. Lister walking through the corridors in Back to Earth looks rubbish because it's been pasted in afterwards. Sure, it's shiny and pretty and stuff, but it doesn't feel real. Not like the quarters did in the early series. No CGI-based set would be able to get away with the "military grey/ocean grey" gag.

Surely the fact Back to Earth was made for virtually nothing (they did the CGI corridor because it was cheaper than building one) kind of shoots down the idea that it was to much budget that did the show in rather than piss poor writing? I've seen that argument made in an insanely vigorous fashion on a lot on other message boards from people who seem desperate to believe it would only take a couple of minor fixes to make the show great again.

Same with the studio audience, I've seem many people swear blind the only real problem with BTE was the lack of an audience for the cast to play off and that the new season Dave have just commissioned scripts for must have one. I don't buy that, not only have the cast had lots of experience in non studio stuff but huge chunks of the first six years must have been recorded without one either (including all of Bodyswap). The reason huge chunks of it don't raise a laugh isn't because of the lack of a laughter track to tell you what's funny, it's because large chunks of it aren't funny. It's an am dram production of Blade Runner.

I was actually lucky for BTE to be watching on a normal telly so the corridor and the Skutter didn't stand out as put out after. Watching again on my brothers big HD TV on the PS3 made it look bloody awful.

Considering a lot of people donated their time to the last one for greatly reduced rates because they were fans I do wonder how the hell Dave are going to manage anything more than what they already created for that. I suppose that could mean a return to low key character stories and bunk room scenes, but it'd be a bit been there done that for me. I really don't want a SF Last of the Summer Wine where it just goes on and on and bar the aging cast you can't tell when the episode that's on cable comes from...

These DVD menus are a ****ing pain. When did they rejig them so you don't have to spend hours trying to navigate the buggers?

I've only got one official Red Dwarf DVD, Series V, and the menus were so ****ily overdone and irritating that I never bought another, and eventually found free versions. There's a win for the menu designers (if anyone wants RD V, I think I've still got the discs somewhere, had the case for something else and probably lost the sleeve though).

Back to Earth... I just couldn't give a shit about. It's Dwarf's Dimensions in Time - it's not to be taken as part of the show, and I doubt I'm ever going to watch it again. What was there, one joke an episode? I seem to remember the ending basically making the hour or so ordeal entirely pointless too. Time to give it up and just move on, lads - Craig Charles has got a proper job now, best if the rest of them do too. A new series on Dave? Most likely it'll be horrible. £10 budget an episode wouldn't be a problem; it'd be that the fannish structure of Back to Earth would be their template - Dave were, presumably, happy with that one, and I guess enough fans bought the DVD. Shame on them all.

CGI only works if it's well-done enough to not look like CGI - I'd rather have Airfix models being shot with fireworks than the lifeless stuff VII & VIII turfed up. And with the design, the first couple of series to me captures what the interior of a mining ship in the future would probably look like - not much cop. Same with the uniforms - any reason they shouldn't be wearing cotton fatigues?

Funny story about the laughter tracks - the version of "Ducts" I downloaded appears to be the "spend £15 on this video" extended (or was it X-tended? Even the damn cases have no style...) one where they went all arty and cut the laughter track. It took me something like 15 minutes to cotton on to the lack of laughter being an intentional cut, as opposed to it just not being funny. Peep Show has neither, and is a funny as **** despite the generally less-obvious nature of the humour... To certain shows it does help the atmosphere, but it's never really make or break stuff.

I think the show's just had its' day - the longer and longer breaks between filming hit the chemistry (better comic timing would have helped 7 & 8 a lot - the general feeling is that everyone's only read the lines for their own character), they've ****ed with the shape too much for continuity to not be a focus (Back to Earth starts with the intent of "Here we are, everyone as you like them, let's move on" only to backtrack on it); Naylor is crap by himself and would have the same problem as the rest of the cast even if they did ask Twatboy back (and TBH anyone who'd want that piece of shit back should seriously consider whether they like the show or not after his bitter little gore-wank fantasy... I'm not even a hardcore Dwarf fan, and yet if I ever meet him in person I'm going to cut out his eyes for that one).

It's gone; we had six good series (which translates to, what, 30-ish good episodes - I can think of only one outright comedy that's beaten that) and a couple of bad ones to show us just how lucky we were (the topic title, incidentally, is tongue-in-cheek, seeing as we all only seem to grumble about RD in actual topics about it), and something which hopefully not too many people saw, and that's not a bad innings.

I thought certain episodes of 7 and 8 were good. And I do mean certain episodes. The first one and Blue in Series 7, and Cassandra and Krytie TV in 8. The Pete episode had some pretty funny stuff, but it was just too long. Same with Back in the Red (which I watched once when I got the series on DVD and haven't touched since.

8 is infinitely better than 7 though. Kochanski was horrible and so was whiny pissant Kryten. At least they toned those two down in 8. Oh and is there any reason why Craig Charles voice is so much higher pitched in 8 than the other seasons? Did he have a second puberty or something?

-Ss

The other bad thing about Kochanski is that red PVC thing they chuck her in - it's cringeworthy, plus she really ain't that hot...

Cassandra wasn't too bad, I suppose - the frustrating thing, though, is it could hav pretty much worked as a "Starbug goes to a derelict" episode; the brig setting really didn't add much to the show. Plus then we might not have had Killcrazy.

Was Blue the Rimmer one with the Rimmer Experience? Yeh, that had its' moments as well - as noted by someone else, generally when Lister and Rimmer are just pissing about (the kiss is great as well, though).

Cliffjumper wrote:I've only got one official Red Dwarf DVD, Series V, and the menus were so ****ily overdone and irritating that I never bought another, and eventually found free versions. There's a win for the menu designers (if anyone wants RD V, I think I've still got the discs somewhere, had the case for something else and probably lost the sleeve though).

The scary thing is I think V is after they realised they'd over done it a bit and made them much easier to get round. My current player is having a nervous breakdown getting round the III menus...

Back to Earth... I just couldn't give a shit about. It's Dwarf's Dimensions in Time - it's not to be taken as part of the show, and I doubt I'm ever going to watch it again.

I've seen that comparrison made a lot by people defending the show as well ("Oh, it's sill celebratory nonsense like DIT, don't take it so seriously"). DIT wasn't supposed to be testing the water for a new series by showing what they could do though, if anything it's the TV Movie.

A new series on Dave? Most likely it'll be horrible. £10 budget an episode wouldn't be a problem; it'd be that the fannish structure of Back to Earth would be their template - Dave were, presumably, happy with that one, and I guess enough fans bought the DVD. Shame on them all.

It did insanely well for them, not just the shows itself but the things on the same night all did much better than usual. Gunmen of the Apocalypse got twice as many viewers as Dave normally does, even if a new series were to level out at that sort of point they'd be basically mad not to do it if they can cost it properly. It's more a shame Grant Naylor Productions are so keen to flog their dead horse.

CGI only works if it's well-done enough to not look like CGI - I'd rather have Airfix models being shot with fireworks than the lifeless stuff VII & VIII turfed up. And with the design, the first couple of series to me captures what the interior of a mining ship in the future would probably look like - not much cop.

I think good model work will usually look better than most CGI, though perhaps with a bit of a unfair advantage as models have a 60 year head start in the industy and even a bad one is at least a real object, with CGI you have to work to make it look like it's outside of a computer. On the other hand, CGI opens up avenues to TV and lower budget films that were previously only open to big budget things like Return of the Jedi, proper three dimensional space battles with lots and lots of ships. Something like Babylon 5 would have been impossible with motion control.

Funny story about the laughter tracks - the version of "Ducts" I downloaded appears to be the "spend £15 on this video" extended (or was it X-tended? Even the damn cases have no style...) one where they went all arty and cut the laughter track. It took me something like 15 minutes to cotton on to the lack of laughter being an intentional cut, as opposed to it just not being funny. Peep Show has neither, and is a funny as **** despite the generally less-obvious nature of the humour... To certain shows it does help the atmosphere, but it's never really make or break stuff.

The problem with the VII extended shows not having the laugh track is that they're filmed and edited with the laughs in mind. So everytime someone tells a joke there's a bloody lengthy gap for the laughter to go. I found it hugely distracting.

Naylor is crap by himself and would have the same problem as the rest of the cast even if they did ask Twatboy back (and TBH anyone who'd want that piece of shit back should seriously consider whether they like the show or not after his bitter little gore-wank fantasy... I'm not even a hardcore Dwarf fan, and yet if I ever meet him in person I'm going to cut out his eyes for that one).

I can't see him ever coming back. Now he gets money from whatever they do and keeps his reputation of being the "good one" without having to prove it.

the topic title, incidentally, is tongue-in-cheek, seeing as we all only seem to grumble about RD in actual topics about it

To be nice for a moment: I actually didn't mind BTE despite the grumbles. It met my criteria of "Not being as bad as the last episode" (Only the Good is atrocious even by VIII standards) and had a lot of nice character moments with everyone giving a better performance than they had for a while. Especially Craig Charles who does some real proper acting and makes some potentially mawkish sequences work (I always thought he was a little underrated comparred to the others, he doesn't have the show offish character but always did a good job in avoiding Lister being a irritating git). It may not be a laugh a minuet but at least that's not what it's trying to be, unlike VIII which is trying and failing 9 times out of 10.

Cliffjumper wrote:The other bad thing about Kochanski is that red PVC thing they chuck her in - it's cringeworthy, plus she really ain't that hot...

Oh she is. The real problem is the scripts conspire to create no chemistry whatsoever between her and Lister, both actors are trying their best but she's written as so unlike him it's impossible to see them as ever having been together. The original Kochanski was cheeky and ever so slightly dirty, you can see the more imature Lister thinking she was perfect. If they'd played it as him getting the object of his desires and finding they had nothing in common after all it could have had some potential, but instead they retconed it as them having already dated and he still pursued her despite her spending all her time crying over her pineapple cottage cheese.

The fairly noticeable age difference between her and Lister didn't help either (despite a line trying to pretend he was still mid twenties).

Cassandra wasn't too bad, I suppose - the frustrating thing, though, is it could hav pretty much worked as a "Starbug goes to a derelict" episode; the brig setting really didn't add much to the show. Plus then we might not have had Killcrazy.

It's a proper good solid exploration of an idea episode, and has fun with the idea of Rimmer dying again which means it probably does actually work best in that season.

Was Blue the Rimmer one with the Rimmer Experience? Yeh, that had its' moments as well - as noted by someone else, generally when Lister and Rimmer are just pissing about (the kiss is great as well, though).

It's just very well done. And like a lot of the later stuff the idea that Rimmer really has changed over the years but still plays the role of a bastard because that's what Lister needs is nicely done (and deals with some of the yo-yoing back and forth his character had).

Cliffjumper wrote:Funny story about the laughter tracks - the version of "Ducts" I downloaded appears to be the "spend £15 on this video" extended (or was it X-tended? Even the damn cases have no style...) one where they went all arty and cut the laughter track. It took me something like 15 minutes to cotton on to the lack of laughter being an intentional cut, as opposed to it just not being funny. Peep Show has neither, and is a funny as **** despite the generally less-obvious nature of the humour... To certain shows it does help the atmosphere, but it's never really make or break stuff.

Trying to watch MASH with the laughter tracks on is a bizarre experience. Mostly because the laughter doesn't actually sync up with where the jokes are, and in many cases end up drowning out the punchline.

Mercifully the DVDs had the sensible idea of including seperate audio tracks, so you can turn them off easily. Sadly, for the first few seasons at any rate, the "with laughter" is the default setting and my DVD player doesn't acknowledge soundtrack changes done from the menu screen. I have to toggle once the episodes are playing. And they didn't think to include a "play all" option until about season 5.

I'm now four episodes into season 4 (of Red Dwarf that is, not M.A.S.H.) and I've been pleasantly surprised. I've always viewed it of the weakest of the pre-Kochanski years and not really getting going till half way through with White Hole. Hugely enjoyed them all this time though, especially Camille which turned out to be good fun.

4 is awesome. But then again I have a hard time finding a 'bad' episode in Dwarf till Holoship. And even that is bloody excellent in parts ('Binks to Enlightemnent...'). I think Dalek smacked the nail on the head about Kochanski. In season 6, she's geniunely unlikeable, and considering it's established by then that Lister has a half decent head on his shoulders (ie: he's not just a space bum), then the relationship becomes quite unbelievable.

-Ss