TFARCHIVE FORUMS

Story-I was some what let down by the story.
While there were some things that I liked as concepts they weren't fully developed to me

Capatin America- waking up 60 years after he fell in an iceberg
this is where I found the weakest. Cap after maybe a couple of months fits into 21st centry. How about playing up to fact that he
is behind times more than asking "Who's Sam Jackson?" and "Who's Brad Pitt?" or commenting on buying a $200 pair of pants. These seem to be Millar's attempts to remind himself that
Cap is 60 years behind. :down:

The Wasp/Giant-Man- The event in #6 seems to come out of nowhere now I'm no expect on domestic abuse but from what I understand this is has signs and frankly I didn't see them. :down:

The Hulk-was funny, but only 300 die when he battles the Ultimates in NYC I would've written as 30,000 but then I'm some
what blood thirsty. I liked this Hulk better than "Hulk Smash verison" :up:

Iron Man-This is the character that more could and should be done with. He's dying right so what does he care about?
His health
Nope
Making the world a better world a place.
Yep
So what does he do he builds a power battle suit and helps the
army. Doesn't this strike anyone else as bizarre?
Or maybe I guess I'm not rich enough to care like that. :down:

Thor-was awsome but I hope they play him off agaist Christian
Fundermentists in vol. 2. :up:

Black Widow-What are exactly her powers? She's basically not given enough time to be explained. :down:

Hawkeye-Looks cool but like Black Widow didn't have enough time to much. :down:

Quicksilver/Scarlett Witch-Where are those satilite photos at? ;)


The story overall is like ID4 with super-heroes.
Unfortually with all the character's backstories and action going on
a lot of material is left unexplained
(like the Wasp being a mutant, eating bugs, and laying eggs :wtf: ) and this seemed to be more suited in an ongoing series where it can explored a lot easier.

The story is basically trying to be a big summer Hollywood movie style-event but misses it mark by not being the big comic book event it could've been. :down:
With I'm sorry to say but to me at least Ultimate Cap comes off as little more than your typical action movie hero :down:


The Art-was in one word GREAT! Other than Wasp's "Asian" look
she didn't look Asian to me (Maybe she was half-Asian) and when the Hulk fought Cap in the tank in #5 it was a little hard to follow as was the same with UFOs in the last issues (which reminded me too much of ID4).
His drawing of GW Bush was frighting realistic I'm still not over that. :eek:



Overall- While Millar's script didn't blow me away as I hoped it would there is a lot potentional in vol. 2 to be more character-driven which would make this series a lot better.
Bryan Hitch's art is what really makes the book for me. as long as Bryan Hitch draws vol. 2 I'll buy it if someone draws it I'll drop it like a bad habbit.



Now will I read the StormWatch/Authority books?
Hey if some will loan me the money to buy the trades or just loan me the trades I will.
(I won't read them online or on CD that's not now I read tradional comics that just my own weird esscentric ways don't ask I can't explain them)

That's just the way I like to read traditonal comics not on CD or online.

Otherwise I can't due to the fact I'm seriouslly broke.

Originally posted by Cyberstrike nTo

Capatin America- waking up 60 years after he fell in an iceberg
this is where I found the weakest. Cap after maybe a couple of months fits into 21st centry. How about playing up to fact that he
is behind times more than asking "Who's Sam Jackson?" and "Who's Brad Pitt?" or commenting on buying a $200 pair of pants. These seem to be Millar's attempts to remind himself that
Cap is 60 years behind.

Because the scenes with Bucky, or in the graveyard with Samuel L Fury didn't do that? This book isn't about Captain America alone. And it's about 300 times the coverage the issue ever got in regular Marvel.

The Wasp/Giant-Man- The event in #6 seems to come out of nowhere now I'm no expect on domestic abuse but from what I understand this is has signs and frankly I didn't see them.

The out of the blue nature seemed to be designed to me. We weren't meant to see it coming. We're meant to see the perfect couple, like all the other main characters do. This is called being a surprise. You know how Miracleman didn't start off with "Johnny Bates is actually still Kid Miracleman and has gone all evil and nutty", but "there's Johnny Bates. Oh ****, he's still Kid Miracleman and has gone all evil and nutty"? It's that. Betty's knowledge of their history adequatly answered it. And you really are no expert on domestic abuse; there's far from always any signs. I'll bet if you walk around a town centre for half an hour, you'll have seen someone who is suffering domestic abuse. But you wouldn't know it.

So what does he do he builds a power battle suit and helps the
army. Doesn't this strike anyone else as bizarre?
Or maybe I guess I'm not rich enough to care like that.

What the Hell else can Tony do? He has money and engineering skills. What's he meant to do? To be honest, we don't even know why the Iron Man suit was designed - the lack of "here's this guy's NEW SHINY ORIGIN!" is one of the Ultimates' best points, as it means it hits the ground running.

Black Widow-What are exactly her powers? She's basically not given enough time to be explained.

So she's a second-string character - christ, that's new, because in 13 issues of any other comic, everyone's centre-stage. Her powers are obvious - enhanced speed/agility/strength, expert shot..

like the Wasp being a mutant, eating bugs, and laying eggs

Well, I'm going to go out on a limb here. This may be crazy, but maybe she's a mutant? Who eats bugs? And lays eggs? And that's part of her mutation? I know, it's like I have a card index for Mark Millar's brain.

Still, to be honest, I could care very little less about your opinion. You'd already decided what you thought of this before you even opened it, and have just picked at [sometimes non-existant] holes to justify your feelings. Like I've said before, it makes little difference to me whether you buy SW/Authority, or go back to masturbating over Devil May Cry or whatever, so don't make out that we're bullying you into it. Just stop mouthing off about things you don't know about [this may cause a substantial drop in the regularity of your posts, though].

What does this have to do with the second book in your thread title?

Millar is responsible for the second half of The Authority Vol. 1 and absolutely none of StormWatch, as far as I'm aware.

You also couldn't find any writer who'd churn out Avengers stories I'd want to read, so castigating a writer for being unable to squeeze any more blood out of what is, to me, a dead concept seems rather like whining about not being able to build realistic Alternators out of Lego.

I'm actually going to side with Cyberstrike on this, sort of. A lot of what Millar has done in Ultimate X-Men, The Ultimates and Authority seems to me him being edgy for the sake of edginess and not really contributing anything to the actual characters.

Seriously, an obscenely rich young industrialist who is dying deciding to create a battlesuit and fight super-villains is a bit of a stretch. Granted so is Iron Man's actual origin but at least in that it's because he was forced to create a battlesuit and then decided to turn it against his captors.

I really liked Cap right up until the crack about France, I was not amused.

The Hulk is awesome, Thor too.

The Wasp laying eggs and eating bugs though. Ok, it sort of makes sense but comes off more like him just trying to gross you out. What's the point?

The story is fine though. It's meant to be cinematic, it's meant to be the type of story you see in a summer action movie. That's on purpose.

Originally posted by Hound
A lot of what Millar has done in Ultimate X-Men,

What did he do that was bad? Albeit I've only read two TPB (My first dip into comics outside of the Dreamwave TF stuff.... since... for a loooong time) but from what I have seen I can't see much difference in the characters from what they originally were.

Originally posted by Hound

I really liked Cap right up until the crack about France, I was not amused.

You liked Cap? I thought he was a great character, for sure. But you liked him? Christ. I honestly didn't think you were meant to like him. You mean kicking a defenceless Banner in the face was fine? Beating seven kinds of **** out of Pym when he doesn't know the facts was fine [incidentally, yet another indication of how Cap hadn't adapted...] and yet he says something grounded in realism [he's from 1945. A lot of British and Americans felt that way] which wasn't very well timed, and that put you off?

Ultimates Cap is great. In the same way Rorschach's great. At the very least, though, at least The Ultimates doesn't put Cap's actions in a very positive light [e.g. Janet having a go at him for attacking Hank], unlike the dire nationalism of the Marvel Knights series.

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
You liked Cap? I thought he was a great character, for sure. But you liked him?

Well, no. I mean I thought that he was well-handled to that point. I liked what they were doing with him up to that point.

what did he say about the french?

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Because the scenes with Bucky, or in the graveyard with Samuel L Fury didn't do that? This book isn't about Captain America alone. And it's about 300 times the coverage the issue ever got in regular Marvel.

I like the idea of WWII character waking up in the 21st centry and seeing how the world's change and trying to adapt to a world
that has changed a lot in last 60 years. Basically after the graveyard and Bucky reunion sences it like:
"Ok let's go fight super-villians"

What the Hell else can Tony do? He has money and engineering skills. What's he meant to do? To be honest, we don't even know why the Iron Man suit was designed - the lack of "here's this guy's NEW SHINY ORIGIN!" is one of the Ultimates' best points, as it means it hits the ground running.

How about this:
He could build a car that runs on an alternate fuel.
Give money to cancer reaserch.
Build devices to help the handicaped
No he builds a battlesuit to fight super-villains.

Still, to be honest, I could care very little less about your opinion. You'd already decided what you thought of this before you even opened it, and have just picked at holes to justify your feelings.

Considering that only opinions and knowledege that I on it had basically came from you, after you read the series and posted how great it was that I decided to give a try.
I would think you would be flattered that I take your recommendations as some of the best I read on the net.
You see it's your recommendations that makes me want to give StormWatch a second try and The Authority and Planetary a chance.


Now maybe it's just me but I'm finding the "realistic" Super-heroes are the ones that end up being more far fetched.

This may cause a substantial drop in the regularity of your posts, though

Don't count on it!

Originally posted by CounterPunch
what did he say about the french?

When he fought the lead alien at the climax he points to the "A" on his mask and yells:
"What do think this stands for France?!"

Double post skip it.

Originally posted by Cyberstrike nTo
How about this:
He could build a car that runs on an alternate fuel.
Give money to cancer reaserch.
Build devices to help the handicaped
No he builds a battlesuit to fight super-villains.

If we lived in a world where super-powered villains ran around causing all kinds of hell, I believe building a battlesuit to fight them would benefit the world more than building devices to help the handicapped.

I see where Denyer was comming from with the dead concept thing but i personally dont think any concept is unworkable with the right writer. i mean strip down any super team and you got a buncha guys with powers......what happens next is up to the writer and makes for any possibility for a good story.....Busiek avengers versus austin for a good example.... and hopefully the bendis take will be annother milestone run *crosses fingers*

simmilarlily with Jla or X-men they've had bad and good runs....i really enjoyed the 80's australia x-men and the inferno stuff but i kinda lost touch with that team over the years...maybe I should get something of recent x-men though anything pretty new in the x-men books thats particularly awesome?

Originally posted by Hawkeye
strip down any super team and you got a buncha guys with powers......what happens next is up to the writer

Exactly. There's nothing left to do with the superhero concept in and of itself... only exploring it in other contexts and using it to tell other stories. The various Ultimate series have had a crack at injecting some realism (from what I've seen, the pop-culture references are certainly welcome) but are quickly becoming the continuity-laden recycles they were initially pushed as an alternative to.

And the characters still don't change the world they supposedly inhabit. They're just there to balance out particular threats and uphold a status quo.

Originally posted by Denyer
Exactly. There's nothing left to do with the superhero concept in and of itself... only exploring it in other contexts and using it to tell other stories.

Maybe nothing utterly groundbreaking, but Kurt Busiek's run on The Avengers proved traditionalist approaches with a slight twist can be hugely successful, ditto Mark Waid on Fantastic 4. Smimilarly, JMS' work on Amazing Spider-Man remains enjoyable, and it's about as edgy as a football. The main problem is that is their attempts to contrast to the relatively stale big-hitters at DC, that Marvel are very hit-and-miss with assigning the right creative team to a comic. Morrison on X-Men? Near-total success [c'mon, compare his run to what Claremont and Casey/Austen were doing alongside... you can let him off for the alt future stupidity and Quentin Quire compared to that]. Geoff Johns on the Avengers? Dismal failure [and that's not just mad old me, either].

The various Ultimate series have had a crack at injecting some realism (from what I've seen, the pop-culture references are certainly welcome) but are quickly becoming the continuity-laden recycles they were initially pushed as an alternative to.

Only really true of X-Men and Spider-Man, to be honest. While it's possibly due to the Ultimates' quarterly schedule, it's a very uncomplicated continuity, and Millar's even having fun with Avengers fans with some red herrings [such as a reference early on to Pym creating Ultron, which has yet to actually come into anything]. The Ultimates varies a lot from its' stablemates. Much of the core concept has been changed - they're not the Avengers, Earth's Mightiest Heroes. They're SHIELD's PR team. The other two books have taken the same basic origins as their MU counterparts, and tweaked/updated them [laughably, Ultimate Spidey #1 is Amazing Fantasy #15 with cellphones], and taken things from there.

And the characters still don't change the world they supposedly inhabit. They're just there to balance out particular threats and uphold a status quo.

I only really read the Ultimates, but I think that could be inaccurate soon, given the direction Millar took on The Ultimates. The Ultimate universe is as yet streamlined enough to survive world-changing events - half of the uneasyness of The Authroity's ascendance to world power is that they're shoehorned into the Wildstorm universe, meaning other books either become satellites [Stormwatch: Team Achilles is about some prick who hates the Authority just because] or just continue unaffected. Thankfully, Ellis seems to have moved Planetary out of the WS universe now it holds nothing of interest to him.

From Cyberstrike, as are the following unless stated otherwiseI like the idea of WWII character waking up in the 21st centry and seeing how the world's change and trying to adapt to a world
that has changed a lot in last 60 years. Basically after the graveyard and Bucky reunion sences it like:
"Ok let's go fight super-villians"

I really don't see that. I also read Cap as very much someone to put his personal issues to one side to concentrate on the job on hand, moreso in the Ultimates than in any previous incarnation [well, apart maybe from when Waid wrote for him, saving us from the Capsoap].

How about this:
He could build a car that runs on an alternate fuel.
Give money to cancer reaserch.
Build devices to help the handicaped
No he builds a battlesuit to fight super-villains.

You're assuming that a) he hasn't done these things and b) he wants to. Stark's a daredevil, he's Howard Hughes. He's not Miracleman.

Now maybe it's just me but I'm finding the "realistic" Super-heroes are the ones that end up being more far fetched.

How so? I'd put forward "A Dream of Flying" as one of the most realistic superhero stories ever. How's it far-fetched? Similarly, Watchmen is hugely "realistic". Both meticulously examine what would happen if there were one or two hugely powerful beings in the universe. If you mean it throws the ridiculousness of comic book heroes into sharp relief, I'd seriously argue that you're not suited for enjoying more mature comics. It's all about suspension of disbelief. And a more realistic approach grounds the story with the reader. And the Authority is [in relative terms] only a semi-realistic book. The characters are normal comic book characters, albeit stretched to the Nth degree; their opponents are similarly standard comic book villains, blown up 300% and given real teeth; it's their interaction with each other and the world that adds the pseudo-realism.

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Maybe nothing utterly groundbreaking, but Kurt Busiek's run on The Avengers proved traditionalist approaches with a slight twist can be hugely successful,

I think it helps if you already like the characters and/or "team book" milieu.

Still, at least Marvel are taking a shot at approaches which are new to them.

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
they're not the Avengers, Earth's Mightiest Heroes. They're SHIELD's PR team.

They never were Earth's mightiest heroes, though, which is the problem I always had with the team. It was more a case of "this one grows, this one shrinks, this one has a flag on his chest"... meanwhile, Legion, Franklin Richards and X-Man are wandering around. And generally being failed somewhat by writers, admittedly, but the Avengers still really got shafted with their inability to change the world.

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
I only really read the Ultimates, but I think that could be inaccurate soon, given the direction Millar took on The Ultimates. The Ultimate universe is as yet streamlined enough to survive world-changing events - half of the uneasyness of The Authroity's ascendance to world power is that they're shoehorned into the Wildstorm universe, meaning other books either become satellites [Stormwatch: Team Achilles is about some prick who hates the Authority just because] or just continue unaffected. Thankfully, Ellis seems to have moved Planetary out of the WS universe now it holds nothing of interest to him.

That's unfortunately the way it goes... if you want books in which meaningful events occur, the titles for that universe need to be on the same page. What annoys me is that Marvel treat crossovers as frequent guest star conveniences which eliminate the need for any complex plot—the crossover is the sole draw. And next issue, we're back to normal, with minimal interaction between very localised areas of effect.

Planetary can just about co-exist with Vol. 1 of The Authority. Given the choice between StormWatch and some of the Jenny Sparks stuff, I'll take the mini-series. Team Achilles I know I probably don't want to start reading...

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Similarly, Watchmen is hugely "realistic". Both meticulously examine what would happen if there were one or two hugely powerful beings in the universe. If you mean it throws the ridiculousness of comic book heroes into sharp relief, I'd seriously argue that you're not suited for enjoying more mature comics. It's all about suspension of disbelief. And a more realistic approach grounds the story with the reader. And the Authority is [in relative terms] only a semi-realistic book. The characters are normal comic book characters, albeit stretched to the Nth degree; their opponents are similarly standard comic book villains, blown up 300% and given real teeth; it's their interaction with each other and the world that adds the pseudo-realism.

Agreed. The final Vol. 1 arc is particularly satirical, and the art doesn't help in that respect... everything up to that point, though, tends to be bloodily realistic. The focus is on power as a tool, not "hey ma, no hands! I can fly!"

Watchmen was a fascinating read, although I probably found it a bit late. The ending was still very effective, though.

Watchmen, to be honest, is easier to appreciate than to read at times. Though Laurie's line "Oh ****... all we did was fail to stop him from saving the world" is one of the most crushing things I've ever read... To be honest, I felt the very end fell a little flat... Rorschach's death had hardly any impact for me, which was odd, considering how attached you get to the character as an anti-hero; Dr Manhattan's departure had little resonance to me, feeling a little intangible; and the coda with Dan and Laurie, going back to doing exactly what's just been outmoded by the previous issue or so? Hmmm...

Funny you should mention Nate, as he's arguably the biggest example of a character utterly constrained by the Marvel universe. Once he matures in the Counter X stuff, he's arguably the most powerful person in the world, and the only way they can emphasise this is by sending him up and down the spiral, because is he does any of that crap on our planet, it'll really screw with Wolverine. Keeping Franklin young has solved a lot of the 'problems' of the impact he could have, and he did notably undo at least one universe-changing event in Onslaught.

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Rorschach's death had hardly any impact for me, which was odd, considering how attached you get to the character as an anti-hero;

He's dead from the moment he's forced into the world without the mask, in many respects. Manhattan's designed to have a huge gulf between himself and human concerns... the way he interacts with time is particularly distancing... and the coda is largely about the way people fail to process events and learn from them. Dan and Laurie are playing at being one kind of mask or another, as they always have. And the era will probably let them before giving way to much more lethal one.

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
the only way they can emphasise this is by sending him up and down the spiral, because is he does any of that crap on our planet, it'll really screw with Wolverine. Keeping Franklin young has solved a lot of the 'problems' of the impact he could have, and he did notably undo at least one universe-changing event in Onslaught.

Yup. They play with the concepts and put them back in the box, because it makes the cash herd jittery... and because they'd limit themselves to a finite amount of escalation; Marvel and DC have made a living out of keeping market currents just above tepid, and trying to stuff the actions of their characters into boxes marked 'easy to cheer at' and 'easy to cheer when losing'.

The industry largely exists to protect itself, so innovation tends to be killed off as soon as is practical.

Originally posted by Cliffjumper
You're assuming that a) he hasn't done these things and b) he wants to. Stark's a daredevil, he's Howard Hughes. He's not Miracleman.

i agree with you there, imagine hugh heffner or bill gates spending all their money on building schools and buildings in third world countries, they just dont go for that thing.

i havent read all of the ultimates and i read vol 1 a while ago so i apologise if this comes out silly but stark is in a situation. He knows hes dying, so why not build a robot suit to help save the world, maybe he sees himself with out the suit as a powerful man financially but not physically so the suit is a kind of pick me up for him, and he lives for the moment, he knows hes gonna die so why not do it being blasted apart by some super villain?

but the Avengers still really got shafted with their inability to change the world.

actually this gets addressed in Jla/Avengers the the JLA themselves are generally more powerfull and have a more active stance on changing the world and get quite angry when they venture to the marvel universe and see what the avengers hadnt accomplished.... but of learning how bad it gets and what limits they have to their power they learn that the refusal to give in to the problems of the world is what makes them earths mightiest.

actually its probably my favorite point of that miniseries...as once differences are put aside and such and cap and superman really get to talking you find that the inability (or the refusal) to change the world is actually part of their "team philosophy" if you will they fear the concept of doing too much as it walks the line of becoming its rulers and as such a kind of facism. like a super-police force then they are purely reactionary..but by choice. Superman himself admited that he fears his own team with the more pro-active approach are doing too much and thus not letting human-kind develop on its own for relying on its super- powered guardian angels.

I think it was summed up nicely by captain america in issue 4 when he joined the avengers while he was fighting the sub-mariner he was thinking "this foe is much stronger than me but ill find a way to out manouver him" while those early issues are dated and such by todays standards that statement explains alot of how they approach things by making due with whatever active members they have rather than over-powering a foe (unless thor is present as he is quite the powerhouse but he isnt always around). with this in mind they can defeat even the likes of Kang who is massively powerfull and it certainly seems like a struggle (without any Green laterns or kryptonians around) and still after stopping such a threat it is definantly possible to find a way to conquer the world for its own good but as I said they fear the corruption that goes with that...anyway this is quite a long statement and off topic a little..of course was not meant to convince you to read avengers as it was to explain there motives a little.....

*edit* I didnt use nearly enough periods...sorry*edit*

Originally posted by Hawkeye
actually this gets addressed in Jla/Avengers the the JLA themselves are generally more powerfull and have a more active stance on changing the world and get quite angry when they venture to the marvel universe and see what the avengers hadnt accomplished.... but of learning how bad it gets and what limits they have to their power they learn that the refusal to give in to the problems of the world is what makes them earths mightiest.

actually its probably my favorite point of that miniseries...as once differences are put aside and such and cap and superman really get to talking you find that the inability (or the refusal) to change the world is actually part of their "team philosophy" if you will they fear the concept of doing too much as it walks the line of becoming its rulers and as such a kind of facism. like a super-police force then they are purely reactionary..but by choice. Superman himself admited that he fears his own team with the more pro-active approach are doing too much and thus not letting human-kind develop on its own for relying on its super- powered guardian angels.

I think it was summed up nicely by captain america in issue 4 when he joined the avengers while he was fighting the sub-mariner he was thinking "this foe is much stronger than me but ill find a way to out manouver him" while those early issues are dated and such by todays standards that statement explains alot of how they approach things by making due with whatever active members they have rather than over-powering a foe (unless thor is present as he is quite the powerhouse but he isnt always around). with this in mind they can defeat even the likes of Kang who is massively powerfull and it certainly seems like a struggle (without any Green laterns or kryptonians around) and still after stopping such a threat it is definantly possible to find a way to conquer the world for its own good but as I said they fear the corruption that goes with that...anyway this is quite a long statement and off topic a little..of course was not meant to convince you to read avengers as it was to explain there motives a little.....

i agree that thats probably the best part of an otherwise lackluster mini series, they way in which superman believed that because the dc earth was so much more peaceful than the marvel one the avengers obviously dont try enough. and the way in which cap believes that the jla rule over the dc earth with an iron fist because of the way that its so much better run.