TFARCHIVE FORUMS

http://www.d13satellite.com/donmurphy/s ... eadid=8505

Thanks again to Master Fwiffo for spreading the word.

May I say I feel slightly worried now? Not only because some people seem to feel like they don't have to respect the fans at all, but also because the fans who are viewed as "representative" of the fandom seem to be the most vocal, downright immature ones.

There's no balance at all whatsoever.

there is an equally vocal group within the production who believe that we should be re-starting our own mythology and that what was in the past stays in the past

Then why bother taking a bunch of old names and an existing franchise?

Unless of course the names are specified in the Hasbro contract...

I'm not worried, but then I'm expecting a pile of Hollywood ****.

I'm sure they know that if they change the Transformers too much, the general public won't be interested...(Turns out not everyone's insanely obsessed with Transformers, whatdyuhknow)

Though it is in my opinion that they should keep old school schematics, I can imagine newer Transformers. And it honestly worries me a bit, as I hope they won't make stupid decisions. Such as making Optimus with a Long Nose Cab (see: Armada) instead of his sexy flat nose self.

We still have to worry about the storyline, which I doubt will suck as I have never seen "Armageddon" and didn't really like Pearl Harbour, but the Big Boys series are "teh l33t".

Originally posted by Batmanners
I'm sure they know that if they change the Transformers too much, the general public won't be interested...

Does the name "Catwoman" ring a bell? Get the name, scrap the rest.

Luckily they only got the writer of that, not the producers.

I might have been worried about this if it wasn't clear that SS, Don and Hasbro will all be pushing for something recognisable.

And enough of the hating already. You don't like the people that are "representing" you? Represent yourself on Don and Michael's sites. No one's much interested in being a spokesman for you. You represent yourself man.

Originally posted by Angelophile
You don't like the people that are "representing" you?

No, that isn't what he said -- fans who are viewed as representative.

Taking fans posting at a particular board (or even from the online fandom as a whole) as representative of anything other than being fans talking about a subject in that forum / online is weak extrapolation. Fine for making guesses in online arguments, but you wouldn't want to base a business plan on it.

Most of the fans I know IRL have a casual interest -- they may have kept a few old TFs, or a few of the new comics from the past few years, or retro t-shirts and posters. People who think of TFs fondly whilst not being rabid internet talkers are a much, much larger demographic, one that's actually relevant to ticket sales. Give them a bit of stuff to latch onto and they're more likely to enjoy it, tell their friends, take their kids (many thirty-somethings from way back have kids who are the right age now) etc.

Or you can just produce a really good film that blows established classics* out of the water and makes its own mythology. But this is Hollywood, it's a summer popcorn flick, and expectations should be set accordingly.

*And no way am I talking about TF:TFM here...

Originally posted by Denyer
Most of the fans I know IRL have a casual interest -- they may have kept a few old TFs, or a few of the new comics from the past few years, or retro t-shirts and posters. People who think of TFs fondly whilst not being rabid internet talkers are a much, much larger demographic, one that's actually relevant to ticket sales. Give them a bit of stuff to latch onto and they're more likely to enjoy it, tell their friends, take their kids (many thirty-somethings from way back have kids who are the right age now) etc.

Agreed, which is why I'm not sure the fans people are complaining about AREN'T representitive. People complain that there's a lot of people who only remember G1 and have a fondness for G1 above anything else and don't care about the 20 or so years of stuff since then...

But isn't that the same as the people you just described?

Those of us that stuck with it and are hardcore fans AREN'T the demographic you want to attract.

The casual fans are.

Is this TRANSFORMERS the movie? Focus on the human part of the cast, a new mithology, no mass shifting (that's IMO part of the transformation process) .... who is "viewed as representative"? give us the names.

Originally posted by Angelophile
Agreed, which is why I'm not sure the fans people are complaining about AREN'T representitive.

Stuff people are likely to remember:

- Authoritative voices for leaders. Needn't be spot on, but you're not going to get away with Matthew Perry for Prime. The average person doesn't know who Peter Cullen is. They can tell you if a voice sounds a bit like John Wayne.

- Colours. Vaguely the same alt-modes (eg, lots of cars and planes, some sort of truck, etc.) This is why, despite lots of characters getting multiple toys, most of them kept the same basic deco... Prime is going to be red, for instance. Others are open to more changes, but Decepticons tend towards darker colours.

- Two sides, logos, the colour of logos, fighting on Earth. People don't remember the original series in detail. For every one who can drag up a friend to name the cassettes, there are five friends who can't.

The bulk of fans generally aren't staging a sit-in on a producer's board, making grumbling noises about boycotts -- and, in fairness, there are a hard core of posters at D13 who aren't. The trolls and illiterates are just more noticeable.

There are people talking about having "wasted" two years if the film doesn't follow the path they'd prefer. At least one of whom I thought had more sense.

Is this TRANSFORMERS the movie? Focus on the human part of the cast, a new mithology, no mass shifting (that's IMO part of the transformation process) .... who is "viewed as representative"? give us the names.

All of which can be a boon in the right hands. I mean, I'm exoecting this thing to be pretty poor, but some of you are so first-time-with-the-Prom-Queen fast to say "OMG, this random comment destroys my dream of a straight remake of MTMTE 1-3". For ****'s sake, as said, and known by the sane portion of fandom since the thing was announced, we are not the target audience, and the sooner people realise this and don't expect some labyrnthe fan-placation piece which in 19 hours long to incorporate a physics lesson, explaining where the Matrix was when Prime was scanned in "City of Steel", why Broadside's character model shifts all over the place and how exactly the effects of the Hate Plague seem to be made up as they go along (bingo...), the better.

Was there any mass shifting in Beast Wars? Indeed, beyond names (and only a fistful of those), early Beast Wars has a new mythology. Any Transformers mythology is new until it's explicictly tied into an old one.

Just to put in my two-cents here, Not sticking to the exact mythology is not necessarily a bad thing. Let's not forget that the Dreamwave era comics stuck to the mythology rather closely (although they did seem to be veering a bit when it would be coming to the events of the movie) and fans seem to hate their stuff with a passion as being "trite" or "unimaginative" or "fan-boyish". The new IDW comics are reinventing the franchise from the ground up... The Autobots have the underwater base, the Decepticons are on land in what looks like the Pacific northwest, Megatron is not on Earth at all (taking that from the IDW website) and will not show up until issue 5(?), and so on. They are even hinting that Transformers are only recent arrivals to Earth and may not have been here for 2 million years like in the cartoon and Marvel books. Yet, fans are almost in complete agreement how good these books are.

Now, just for the record, I am not a die-hard Transformers fan, but I am a fan. I loved them as a kid and am very happy to see them return. I would rather hear Cullen and Welker's voices coming from Prime and Megatron than Vin Diesel's. Soundwave should not be a vehicle of any kind. The seekers don't look right unless they are F-15s. And Shockwave is and always should be a purple flying space gun. I would love nothing more than to relive my childhood and watch a photo-perfect CGI version of the Marvel/Sunbow designs, but I won't. As long as they get the main parts right and keep to the spirit of what keeps the Transformers poplular for over 20 years, then I will still be entertained. Sure, I'd much rather hear Soundwave's effect-heavy, cold, monotone voice than have him portrayed as a giggling, Joker-like maniac. But if the end reasult is that I am entertained, then okay.

"Reinvention" is always a tricky thing. For every "Battlestar Galactica" there is a "Godzilla". The difference is whether or not the people involved have any love for the original material. The producers know that there is a huge fanbase. It is in the fans' favour that Spielberg is a fan himself and that Hasbro won't let them deviate too far with their property. They are going to meet the fans and the general public halfway. The end result won't be THAT FAR from what we all have grown up with. Different, oh yes. But certainly nothing where the only nod to the very concept of the Transformers is a 3-second shot of a gas station attendant with a "Sparkplug" name patch.

"What would you prefer? Yellow spandex?"

To pull a quote from the TFW2005 boards:

All the "avoid ties to the past" talk still concerns me though, because the past is what created the opportunity to make a new film, and what will appeal to those with even the mildest sense of nostalgia. It's also a bit vague right now. Does avoiding ties to the past mean "some modes and designs change for the sake of moviemaking and storytelling, and please don't be too put out if Cullen's not in it.", or is it more like "You're going to love it! Optimus Prime is an insecure soldier rising to prominence after his experiences on Earth. Hell be voiced by David Schwimmer, and we just scored H. R. Giger to design all the robots in his trademarked style!". I'll agree that Hasbro probably won't let things stray too far from where they "should" be, since they own the property, and would like to use this movie to move some toys.

Originally posted by Denyer
Stuff people are likely to remember:

- Authoritative voices for leaders. Needn't be spot on, but you're not going to get away with Matthew Perry for Prime. The average person doesn't know who Peter Cullen is. They can tell you if a voice sounds a bit like John Wayne.

- Colours. Vaguely the same alt-modes (eg, lots of cars and planes, some sort of truck, etc.) This is why, despite lots of characters getting multiple toys, most of them kept the same basic deco... Prime is going to be red, for instance. Others are open to more changes, but Decepticons tend towards darker colours.

- Two sides, logos, the colour of logos, fighting on Earth. People don't remember the original series in detail. For every one who can drag up a friend to name the cassettes, there are five friends who can't.

The bulk of fans generally aren't staging a sit-in on a producer's board, making grumbling noises about boycotts -- and, in fairness, there are a hard core of posters at D13 who aren't. The trolls and illiterates are just more noticeable.

There are people talking about having "wasted" two years if the film doesn't follow the path they'd prefer. At least one of whom I thought had more sense.

I'd add head designs to that too. Particularly Prime's.

And all the "I'll boycott if <insert issue here>" posts I just mentally filter out anyway.

I'd say anyone who actually bothers to post on a message board is a little further away from casual fans, but I'd staill say the guys who didn't hink about TFs for 20 years til this movie came along are probably more representivie of the people the audience is gonna be made up of than someone who's collected every line, watched every cartoon, owns hundreds of toys, runs their own website, whatever.

As to the "reinvention" issue, I doubt the movie's gonna be as much of a reinvention as people are fearing. The same people who scream that nothing much be changed are reading and enjoying IDW's TF comics which are also reinventions.

I never expected them to stick to most of the mythos, I don't have dillusions of Primus and Rack 'n Ruin making a cameo. As long as they don't go as far as somethig on the lines of the Transformers are man-made on Earth ect

we just scored H. R. Giger to design all the robots in his trademarked style!

I wanna see that!

Ahem.

I'd also like to see the "TFs made on Earth" story, because it hasn't been done officially, and I don't reckon it'd be the kiss of death many think.

I'd still say the guys who didn't think about TFs for 20 years til this movie came along are probably more representivie of the people the audience is gonna be made up of than someone who's collected every line, watched every cartoon, owns hundreds of toys, runs their own website, whatever.

Yep. Thing is, these aren't the people who've suddenly broken with habit, found a board, rediscovered stuff, etc. -- like I say, the majority of fans aren't active online (one look at DW or IDW or DVD sales should tell anyone that) -- they're the people who've been casually malingering around forums for a short while (a year or two) bitching about how nothing is the same as they half-remember to anyone who'll listen. Or in some cases, have been bitching non-stop since about 1986, but those are a genuine minority. It's mostly the unthinking nostalgia crowd just about motivated enough to post and get into "wot?!!1 prime never long nose trukk!!1!!"

Originally posted by Denyer
I'd also like to see the "TFs made on Earth" story, because it hasn't been done officially, and I don't reckon it'd be the kiss of death many think.

"TFs being made on Earth" would pretty much take away everything that made the Transformers unique, in that they're NOT just some mechas built on Earth. That'd be about the same as making the X-Men aliens, or Spider-Man a regular spider mutated into a human by some evil scientist.

It's mostly the unthinking nostalgia crowd just about motivated enough to post and get into "wot?!!1 prime never long nose trukk!!1!!"

Thereby refusing to acknowledge Laser Prime...

Originally posted by Nevermore
"TFs being made on Earth" would pretty much take away everything that made the Transformers unique

Oh, it wouldn't be Transformers as seen in any other continuity. No arg there. Still doesn't mean I wouldn't be open to seeing it in preference to bad rehash of the variety served up in DW G1 Volume 2.

Originally posted by Nevermore
Thereby refusing to acknowledge Laser Prime...

I was kinda hoping that was implicit, but yeah, for the benefit of the casual audience wandering through:

http://tfu.info/1995/Autobot/OptimusPri ... sprime.htm

^ See, articulation and everything.

Originally posted by Denyer
Oh, it wouldn't be Transformers as seen in any other continuity. No arg there. Still doesn't mean I wouldn't be open to seeing it in preference to bad rehash of the variety served up in DW G1 Volume 2.

You aren't the only one.

Originally posted by Denyer
I wanna see that!

Ahem.

I'd also like to see the "TFs made on Earth" story, because it hasn't been done officially, and I don't reckon it'd be the kiss of death many think.Yep. Thing is, these aren't the people who've suddenly broken with habit, found a board, rediscovered stuff, etc. -- like I say, the majority of fans aren't active online (one look at DW or IDW or DVD sales should tell anyone that) -- they're the people who've been casually malingering around forums for a short while (a year or two) bitching about how nothing is the same as they half-remember to anyone who'll listen. Or in some cases, have been bitching non-stop since about 1986, but those are a genuine minority. It's mostly the unthinking nostalgia crowd just about motivated enough to post and get into "wot?!!1 prime never long nose trukk!!1!!"

Which you have to admit is closer to the majority of people who half remember Transformers than people eho've been to every con, run websites, buy every toy etc etc.

The hardcore fans are the extreme minority and I certainly don't think they're more representitive of people than "geewunners" are.

Much of the audience IS gonna be lapsed geewunners on a semi-nostalgic kick.

Originally posted by Nevermore
Thereby refusing to acknowledge Laser Prime...

Hmm...

Laser Prime or Masterpiece Prime?

I know which I prefer.

So they did a decent long nosed Prime? They also did an excellent flat nosed Prime too. It's not something to cry over, but it's not something that NEEDS changing either. Why bother making him a long nosed truck? He'll be more recognisable to causal fans as a flat nosed one. Does it improve the movie? Nope. Does it improve the chances for a cool toy? Nope, a flat nosed Prime can look just as good if not better.

if it ain't broke...

Originally posted by Angelophile
The hardcore fans are the extreme minority and I certainly don't think they're more representitive of people than "geewunners" are.

In most cases, geewunners are the hardcore fans -- they're the only people to whom the 'hardcore' tag would mean anything.

Originally posted by Angelophile
Hmm...

Laser Prime or Masterpiece Prime?

I know which I prefer.

I prefer Robotmasters Convoy to either, personally. I'm not a huge fan of film memorabilia, which is where I mentally file a two-foot articulated statue that towers over everything. I collect toys (though rather seldom; I'm here for the stories.)

It's not going to matter a jot to me if Prime is another kind of red truck, and I doubt casual fans are such huge truck afficionados -- that's left for message board populances. People will be expecting stuff that makes the film modern, so as long as things look extremely cool, realistic, detailed etc. they probably won't even notice...

Likewise, I want an authoritative Prime. Other people are capable of doing a John Wayne impression, but Cullen is the most qualified I can think of off the top of my head. Mostly because I don't know the names of many voice actors.