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Old 2002-12-06, 06:25 PM   #21
Savannahtron
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heehehehehe

that was funny man,
 
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Old 2002-12-06, 08:21 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strafe
Depends on how you define knowledge. Since there is no right answer as of now, the best to date, ignoring Gettier counter-examples is True Justified Belief.

As for which is true, well we may never be able to judge that in the epistemeological sense. But what we do have is a pretty good idea of how things went, and even if there is no knowledge according to skepticism, it's still better than nothing due to the greater justification behind it.
Yeap, yeap, yeap, to pretty much your entire post.

Strafe my good man, I agree. Part of my post was asking for clarification of what would make Hound a gree on something's validity. That deals with the theory of knowledge. One could argue that creationism cannot be held to a scientific standard, just as evolution cannot be held ota metaphysical standard.

Skepticism I don't really want to get into. I'm not a big fan of it, and I don't know if it will really help with the question of validity right now.

Last time a similar question was made, I defined validity, but people seemed more interested in accusing me of ignoring large chunks of the people on the earth than debating the terms I made. That's why I'm going to wait for Hound to explain what be wants in more detail this time around.
 

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Old 2002-12-06, 08:48 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by nmathew
Skepticism I don't really want to get into. I'm not a big fan of it, and I don't know if it will really help with the question of validity right now.

Yeah well Skepticism sucks monkey nuts to begin with. As G.E. Moore would say, "I know very well this is a hand, and so do you. If you come across some philosophical theory that implies that you and I cannot know that this is a hand, then so much the worse for the theory"

Last time a similar question was made, I defined validity,

Well in the philosophical sense validity pertains to logic, or more accurately an argument. An argument is valid if the conclusion would follow if the premises are true. Suffice to say, labeling an argument valid is barely a compliment...

All X are Y
All Y are Z
Therefore all X are Z

That's a valid argument...

All Birds are Dolphins
All Dolphins are Chimps
Therefore all birds are chimps

Valid, but utterly ridiculous...
[/B]

 
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Old 2002-12-06, 08:55 PM   #24
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*sleeps*
 

The bunnies, they give me knowledge it is neat.

The only necessity for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
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Old 2002-12-06, 08:56 PM   #25
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Yes, yes. Good points. I just don't think Hound was looking for that kind of validity, but something more concrete, such as the word is used in everyday language. I'll just sit back and wait.


One of my favorite tricks is judging a theory using itself as the judge. Reflexivity, or something like that. How would know know that we cannot know That method can be used to show that several theories of how science works don't really deserve discussion. But that's for a different topic.

BTW, Strafe, where's your background in philosophy from? Mine is just a good course in high school and a bit here and there in college. I did get a great class concerning scientific knowledge however.
 

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Old 2002-12-06, 09:03 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by nmathew

BTW, Strafe, where's your background in philosophy from? Mine is just a good course in high school and a bit here and there in college. I did get a great class concerning scientific knowledge however.
It's my major actually...w00t
 
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Old 2002-12-06, 10:03 PM   #27
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You guys forgot one important thing... I'll do this:

*powerposts
 
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Old 2002-12-06, 10:27 PM   #28
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Yes yes ok, one "God" created the universe. But, if there was nothing before the universe was created, how was "God" created? Did "God" just appear out of nothing? Yes, I suppose this question cant be answered, but it doesnt make sense...:/
 
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Old 2002-12-07, 01:45 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Plasmodium
Yes yes ok, one "God" created the universe. But, if there was nothing before the universe was created, how was "God" created? Did "God" just appear out of nothing? Yes, I suppose this question cant be answered, but it doesnt make sense...:/
Well, this is how I view it.

God's existence cannot be fully comprehended by us. He's beyond us. I don't know that the creator of all is bound by our concept of time.

Besides, where did all that matter come from? Did it just appear out of nothing
 
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Old 2002-12-07, 02:07 AM   #30
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Which came first the chicken or the egg, or the slug amoeba that crawled out of the primordial soup from which all life crawled out of. Why debate ancient earth Mythology? Do Dragons exist because an ancient Chinese text says they happened. The Bible can be no more proven then the existence of Zeus, or some other demi-god of old world lore. Its just that the Bible survived over the centuries whereas other maybe more important documents were destroyed by Christians, or the death of ancient Egyptians top religious priests. Perhaps the burning of the Alexandria library was a turning point in the Bibles vice grip upon Earths populace.
 
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Old 2002-12-07, 02:10 AM   #31
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we cannot prove god existance.....nor can we disprove it.

The reason that all these threads get conjested with argument is because no one really knows what happened...

in the end it is up to ones own subjectivity....you can belive whatever you want....

strafe is right to the point.....they are all valid arguments....but in the end not one of them is wrong and not one of them is right

Ultimate Weapon has hit the nail on the head
 

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Old 2002-12-07, 05:12 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by nmathew
For instance, if you want me to prove creationism acording to current science theory, I cannot. It doesn't have the eperical evidence behind it.
What I want is for Sheba to admit that.

What would make creationism valid in my eyes? I'll quote nmat, "prove creationism acording to current science theory". Show me empirical evidence.

In no way am I implying that creationism is definitely not valid, I'm just saying that you can't tell me that it has to be the way everything was created only because you can poke holes in evolution. You neglect a big gaping chasm in creationism, your only proof is the bible. You don't get to say that the bible is correct only because we haven't found the correct answer yet. What if God created the universe in a couple billion years, never rested and isn't done yet. If I were Sheba I could say that was the absolute truth for no other reason then you don't have the correct answer to prove me wrong with.

I'm of the mind that as of present no one knows how the universe was created we have thoeries based on our observations and that is all we've got.

As for God's creation, that implies that at one point God didn't exist which is flawed. God has always existed, God will always exist, God is you and me and the matter upon which you stand. God is existence. At least as far as I'm concerned.

The amazing thing about that thoery is that based upon that reasoning I could make a valid claim at being Christ. I'm as much God's son as any other person walking the Earth and certainly just as much as Jesus Christ was. Hehe, "bow before the king of kings." Certainly Jesus was the first to use this thoery to his advantage. His "teachings" are now some of the most held beliefs on the planet.

Before anyone gets on here and starts yelling, "blasphemy!" or "You are an enemy of God" these are my beliefs and I am entitled to them and have every right to state them here. If you don't like them, fine, but if you don't entitle me to my beliefs I am perfectly willing to not entitle you to yours...

I want Sheba to read this post and to tell me I'm not wrong and mean it, if she can do that, I'll do the same for her...
 


1921\4\6-2010\1\21 Goodbye Grandma, I love you

Last edited by Hound; 2002-12-07 at 05:15 AM.
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Old 2002-12-07, 05:47 AM   #33
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Well, God, choose your denomination, is the alpha and omega, basically representing infinity in everyting... power, knowledge (after all, knowledge is power), ability, presence, ect; to understand such a being, you yourself would have to be omniscent.

Here's a little bit of scale... imagine one of our big human constructs; a Navy Aircraft Carrier. Huge vessel. Now, try to imagine knowing everything about it. Not just the schematics... literally every plate, nut, rivet, ect. Know the functions of everything on board and understand the exact principles behind them, including all physics. Know who designed and built it, and have moment-by-moment memory of every aspect of its' construction. Know everything about each molecule, atom, and sub-particle in it (the laws of physics don't allow this, so we'll drop this requirement for us mere mortals.) Literally everything about everything in absolute detail, with perfect memory that never dulls.

It's absolutely impossible for a human. Maybe Several Billion Quantum Computers could do it, but not one of us. And we think we can know God? That's the most egotistical and rediculous thing I've ever heard, and lemme tell you, as an insomniac, I've seen a ton of late-night infomercials.

I'm agnostic. But I think Bill Maher nailed the concept right "You understand God about as much as your dog understands you." And he also says he doesn't think you can comprehend God either. "He's telling you; pay no attention to the man behind the curtain."
 
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Old 2002-12-07, 05:59 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snake
"You understand God about as much as your dog understands you."
Oh yeah, shows what you know. I don't even have a dog, um... yeah!

Oh and for arguements sake only I'm gonna throw this out there. What if god is letting us understand him?
 
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Old 2002-12-07, 06:18 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
Oh yeah, shows what you know. I don't even have a dog, um... yeah!

Oh and for arguements sake only I'm gonna throw this out there. What if god is letting us understand him?
I know you're lying to me!

Heh heh heh heh heh...


But seriously, if he were to "let us understand" it would have to be in terms simple enough for us to comprehend. Unless of course God decides to fire out some of that omni-power and give us more intelligence.
 
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Old 2002-12-07, 07:32 AM   #36
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Quote:

"What would make creationism valid in my eyes? I'll quote nmat, "prove creationism acording to current science theory". Show me empirical evidence."
I think I got the vB code right

I cannot. The Bible itself says that no one was around ot watch it. It would take God himself to explain it to us for it to be considered a scientific fact. The only thing that I can say is that by the same standards, there is no theory that meets it.

Hound, you've set the bar so high that I am forced to say that by your standards there is no valid theory. None. And there never can be any.

Now, do you wish to lower the bar, or have we come to an agreement?


Snake, I want some of that "more intelligence."
 
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Old 2002-12-07, 07:47 AM   #37
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The bar gets set no lower. If you're going to claim that you have the answers to the creation of everything you'd better have more evidence than, "a burning bush told me"

If that means that we'll never have the answer then so be it...

Edit: The point I'm trying to make is that given that we've no proven thoery for the creation of the universe all current thoeries are as valid as any other. All I want is for everyone, especially Sheba, to admit that.
 

Last edited by Hound; 2002-12-07 at 08:07 AM.
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Old 2002-12-07, 07:48 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hound
The bar gets set no lower. If you're going to claim that you have the answers to the creation of everything you'd better have more evidence than, "a burning bush told me"

If that means that we'll never have the answer then so be it...
Fair enough. I'm certainly willing to admit there will always be uncertainty concerning the beginning of it all.
 
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Old 2002-12-07, 07:50 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snake
But seriously, if he were to "let us understand" it would have to be in terms simple enough for us to comprehend. Unless of course God decides to fire out some of that omni-power and give us more intelligence.
I would say that's what the whole 'Bible' thing is about. God trying to put what 'he' did in terms that the people of those times could understand...
 
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Old 2002-12-07, 07:54 AM   #40
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I agree with Warcry. The Man gave 10 rules. 10!

Number 6 was

"Thou shall not kill."

4 words, single syllables, and look how unable we've been able to understand that. Sad really.


I don't want to say that He could fail, so I guess we dropped the ball.
 
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