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Old 2002-12-19, 01:05 PM   #41
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But to be honest, WWI is a bit irrelevant, as neither of its central forces, Furman and Figueroa, were with Dreamwave during the creation of most of G1... they've bought in 2 fan favourites, and in Furman, aren't actually breaking in anything new by simply bringing back the guy for did it for a decade beforehand...
 
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Old 2002-12-21, 07:29 PM   #42
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That is the problem I think too many of us (myself included) are so used to Furman as the writer of TF comics that we forget other people may have different takes on the Transformers. I like Furman but what if he says one day: "That is it I'm not writing anymore Transformers I've told all my stories that I can tell"
Dreamwave (or any publisher for that matter who has the rights to do Transformers comics) are so used to having Furman around that maybe we all have become to dependent on him to bail out every TF comic series around that.
The fact that as PaladinPrime pointed out:
Quote:
No one can write them like Furman.
Is like saying only Stan Lee can write Spider-Man.
Which is bull**** other writers should be given a chance to tell TF
stories without being constrained to a complex 19 year history.

Ok we've estabished the fact that no one here is to fond of Scarnni and Budiniski fine that shouldn't mean that Furman is the only guy that can write TF comics.

Maybe it is time we should be more open to others and there takes on Transformers.
 



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Old 2002-12-21, 08:50 PM   #43
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Y'see, this is what really pisses me off. The ones who assume we're attacking it because it's not Simon Furman [I'm sure Nevermore will pop up any minute now]. How difficult is it to understand? I thought it was crap because it was crap, not because Furman didn't write it. I love Armada #1-2, Dark Awakening and Victory, none of which have anything to do with Furman. So other people can write well for Transformers. The DW team just weren't one of them. I'm also for new takes on the Transformers. But what DW G1 gave us was a vague re-hash of old takes on several different things, repackaged in computer-aided fanboy wankfodder.
 
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Old 2002-12-22, 03:33 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Quicksilver
Y'see, this is what really pisses me off. The ones who assume we're attacking it because it's not Simon Furman [I'm sure Nevermore will pop up any minute now]. How difficult is it to understand? I thought it was crap because it was crap, not because Furman didn't write it. I love Armada #1-2, Dark Awakening and Victory, none of which have anything to do with Furman. So other people can write well for Transformers. The DW team just weren't one of them. I'm also for new takes on the Transformers. But what DW G1 gave us was a vague re-hash of old takes on several different things, repackaged in computer-aided fanboy wankfodder.


Hey I like Dark Awaking and Victory but back to the subject at hand:

The story after re-reading all six issues it is like you said it is not very good but art is SUBJECTIVE meaning I LIKE Pat Lee's take on the Transformers but that is my personal OPIONION I like Pat Lee's art on the series you don't that is
your personal OPIONION and I respect that Quicksilver.
But remember art is subjective that some people don't like certain
artist's styles here is an example:

I like Rob Liefield a lot of people here don't but I do.

I don't like Mike Mingola'a artwork but a LOT people do.

Art is subjective always has been and always will be.
 



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Old 2002-12-22, 03:59 PM   #45
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Nice back-peddle...

Anyway, I'm gonna take a minute to talk about Lee's art on this series. He has great style, it's beautifully detailed, nice and flashy. He'd make a really nice cover artist or poster artist. It's the pacing and the way he lays out a page that has made the series poorly done.

You are right that art is subjective and IMO Pat Lee draws real pretty No one is going to say that the Soundwave poster isn't beautiful. But that isn't the issue that Cliffy is raising. The art in the series is nice looking and IMO worth the price I paid for the books but it doesn't make the story enjoyable.
 


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Old 2002-12-22, 08:58 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cyberstrike nTo

The fact that as PaladinPrime pointed out:

"No one can write them like Furman."

Is like saying only Stan Lee can write Spider-Man.
Which is bull**** other writers should be given a chance to tell TF
stories without being constrained to a complex 19 year history.
Yeah, except that it's not. It's like saying that anyone can write Spiderman, but it's not as good as when Stan Lee writes them.

Point 1: That was taken way out of context. I was commenting on the War Within. Just so you know, I get really peeved when someone misquotes me, or takes what I said out of context. Also, It takes away from the misquoter's argument when I expose that fact.

Point 2: What I'm saying is that I like Simon Furman's work, and I have yet to come accross transformers work of a similar quality. If you could show me a transformers story that was better than Furman's, then I would have to retract that statement, but I have not seen one yet, so my statement stands.
 
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Old 2002-12-22, 11:12 PM   #47
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Wow, total side-stepping of my response to your post there Mr. NTO...

Lee does draw very good-looking art, and as several have noted, he's fantastic for covers and posters. But he can't drawn dynamically, he can't draw emotion, he can't draw humans and his unique view on perspective is way over used. Now, I'm a fan of a great many artists, but one of my faves is Geoff Senior. Sure he doesn't have great detail [mind, he never ran the compnay, so he couldn't bring out the books whenever he damn well felt like it], but as far as Transformers go [and Jim Lee is living proof that being a great comic book artist does not translate to being a great TF comic book artist] he had action and dynamics nailed. Similarly, Wildman had emotion down to a tee. Now, I'm not suggesting that anyone else should just not bother, that's silly. But Lee [as in Pat] should really stick to covers, posters, lithos etc. and let someone like James Raiz take over, frankly. I mean, I honestly thought that the art-as-centre trend in comic books was dying out [Marvel, for instance, are very writer-orientated], but DW G1 is a regression to that early-Image thing, and it doesn't work. Lee seems to think that "wow, they're big robots" is about as adventurous as things need to get, and we should be happy with this. I do agree that art is very much a matter of taste, probably more so than story, but my main objection to the art is that it was allowed to be the centre of the book. We all know what Transformers look like, but I for one would also like a story.

Paladin was quoted out of context, as well. Furman's status as the best TF writer of all time is probably about as close to official that such an opinion-based title can be. Does this mean other people can't do it well? No, look at Antoni Zalewski, the writers of CG2 @ the Hub, Harry Beejan, Senex Prime, selected Budiansky story arcs etc. Nobody has said that anything Furman writes is automatically great [I picked up his entire Alpha Flight run for 1.80 and felt robbed] and that anything not written by him isn't.

And I'm still just hearing excuses here.

EDIT: And something I've been meaning to say since I started this thing... I wasn't expecting a Furman-esque piece of dark mysticism in the vein of G2. I was expecting a fun runaround on about the level of an above-par cartoon episode. Instead, we get k3wl black ops, a severe lack of Transformers for too much of the series, padding galore and some of the worst characters ever created, in General Halo and 'Pat' Lee-Zaras.

EDIT 2: THIS TIME IT'S ADDITIONAL: Another thing is that as far as evaluating the content of the issues themselves go, I haven't compared Dreamwave's TF output to that of Marvel [or indeed any other comic title] at any point. It would have been easy to cut frames from UK comic scans and pointed out superior dialogue, better plotting, more explosive narrative pacing, effectively dynamic drawing or emotive art. But that would have been a straight X v Y comparison, which would have been deserving of the get-out clauses Cyberstrike & Nevermore have been stumbling back on. I've evaluated the story and the art on their own terms. Had the comic been exactly the same, but on Gobots [not much of a variation, given that we have effectively fresh characters and minimal continuity on show], how many of you would have bought it? How many would have actually been satisfied? Next to none. Admittedly, that argument is from the same angle as Nevermore's repeated "ah, but would you have said the same if Furman had wrote it?" schtick, and can be answered with a swift "but it wasn't, so it's got bugger-all to do with anything". But think about that. Get past the euphoria of Transformers being back in print, with the original characters to boot, and actually think about whether it's any good on its own terms. If this board still exists in, say, 10 years' time [I know it will in some form, but seeing the leap forward in the past 10 years who knows what'll be here by then...], how many people do you think will be going on about this series? Granted, if Volume 2 is more of a critical success and leads to further subsequent successful TF 'G1' series capable of surviving even after the current nostalgia bubble bursts, they might get occasional mention in the same way the original Marvel limited series gets talked about from time to time. But will anyone actually identify the series as a great moment in TF history? No, no they won't.
 

Last edited by Cliffjumper; 2002-12-22 at 11:49 PM.
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Old 2002-12-24, 03:41 PM   #48
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Well Wizard like Pat Lee's art enough to put him on the ballot for the penciler of year for the Wizard awards.
Go figure...


Back to the subject at hand!

Quicksilver like I said art is SUBJECTIVE

I like Rob Liefild's art to be to me it ROCKS and that is my honest-to-God OPIOION

I hate Mike Mingola's art to me it SUCKS that is my honsest-to-God OPIOION

about this backpeddle thing:

I took your advice and re-read the series and the TPB that just came out and came to the conclusion that story is like reading in act 2 in a 3 act play without reading act 1.

I knew what Paladin Prime is saying and did not mean take it out of context I pointed out that some people would buy a
Transformers comic and that Simon Furman wrote and it is greatest even if Furman himself said it sucked.

We (all Transfans) have held him in high reguard for so long and
are so used to him writing every TF comic seris that we some times forget to try to give others a chance. Scarnni tried and didn't do that great of a job! NEXT WRITER!!

Then you bring up the cartoon shows and the writers for them.
I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE CARTOON SHOWS
I'm talking about the Dreamwave and Marvel US comics I have only a few UK comics and YES I know how great because I read the few I got so you don't have to point that out.


and btw Quicksliver I'm not making excuses I'm pointing out facts that you missed!
 



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Last edited by Cyberstrike nTo; 2002-12-24 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 2002-12-24, 04:10 PM   #49
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And? Wizard like what's k3wl, not what's good. Awards don't mean zip... did Citizen Kane win an Oscar? Blur won a Brit for their 2nd worst album. Was Furman a Wizard winner for his end of run stuff at Marvel USA? Did Ellis clean up for Counter-X? Awards don't mean zip, and if Pat Lee getting a nomination is meant to be some sort of counter-argument to what's laid out above, then sadly I think you're out of your league here.
 
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Old 2002-12-24, 04:15 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cyberstrike nTo
Well Wizard like Pat Lee's art enough to put him on the ballot for the penciler of year for the Wizard awards.
Go figure...:
He's there because he sold a bunch of comics. Simple as that. There's a reason Milli Vanilli and Christina Aguilerra have Grammy awards. Because they sold a lot of records. That certainly doesn't make them good. Same applies here for Wizard...

As far as Furman goes? If he had written it and the series sucked, you would see a worse backlash here than you're getting right now. I think it's safe to say that no one can be spared from Quicksilver's wrath.

And what's an OPIOION?

And to Tom, the only thing I'd make sure of if you were to send this out anywhere is to make sure you spell his name correctly -- it's Sarracini, not Saccarini. Otherwise, I couldn't have said it better myself...
 
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Old 2002-12-24, 04:29 PM   #51
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And in that vein, Josh, Mr. NTO really shouldn't highlight spelling errors

Quote:
Originally posted by Cyberstrike nTo

I knew what Paladin Prime is saying and did not mean take it out of context I pointed out that some people would buy a
Transformers comic and that Simon Furman wrote and it is greatest even if Furman himself said it sucked.
Buying? Yes. Liking? No. Big difference there.

Quote:

We (all Transfans) have held him in high reguard for so long and
are so used to him writing every TF comic seris that we some times forget to try to give others a chance. Scarnni tried and didn't do that great of a job! NEXT WRITER!!
Sorry, is this actually going anywhere?

Quote:

Then you bring up the cartoon shows and the writers for them.
I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT THE CARTOON SHOWS
I'm talking about the Dreamwave and Marvel US comics I have only a few UK comics and YES I know how great because I read the few I got so you don't have to point that out.
You hinted that people would automatically be disatisfied at a different writer doing Transformers. I gave examples of different writers doing high-quality Transformers work. How is that irrelevant?

Quote:

and btw Quicksliver I'm not making excuses I'm pointing out facts that you missed!
So the fact that Lee gets nominated for an award means that, actually, his work's great, and my essay is rendered totally void? Yeah. Right.

EDIT: Just to clarify, from here on isn't aimed at anyone in particular

If one more ****ing person says something like "Yeh, what would you say if Furman had written it?" I will lose my temper, and petition for their banning on the grounds of being a board nuisance. As the examples of TV episodes/series I gave, plus my more liberal attitude towards the work of Bob Budiansky, show I don't think anything not written by Furman is automatically poor. I also think Sarracini [cheers Josh ] has done a good job on the opening issues of Armada. Now, the thing is Furman didn't write G1. It's like saying "Ah, but what if Claremont had written the Marvel book?". It's impossible to evaluate, and an inherently void argument. If Furman had have written it, it would most likely had been different. Maybe not vastly good, or even very different, as Furman would have been working literally for Lee, but different. Just to shut anyone up, I'd be even more pissed off if someone of the proven calibre of Furman [at least with regard to Transformers] turned out six issues of such vacuous, turgid trash.
 
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Old 2002-12-24, 10:04 PM   #52
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I have a feeling that Mr. NTO has already bought his Terminator 3 ticket.:rolleyes:
 
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Old 2002-12-26, 02:41 PM   #53
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Post Quicksilver chill out!

I said the story upon re-reading it WAS/IS LIKE YOU SAID not all that good so in other word you converted me from being
a TF:G1 Scarrni(or how ever you spell his name) fan! in other words:
YOU WON half the of the arugment in that topic! Congratulations!
To me the art in G1 was the best thing in the series!
I know Pat Lee is nominated for a Wizard Award for fav penciler
so what?
So did Jim Lee and John Cassady two other great artist in two great books that I read.

If you are trying to start a flame war with me don't bother as told you elsewhere I'm not going going to sink that level with you or anyone else.

Try to respect other people's OPINIONS.
 



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Old 2002-12-27, 04:08 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cyberstrike nTo
I know Pat Lee is nominated for a Wizard Award for fav penciler
so what?
Then why the Hell bring it up??? Why bring it up in support of Lee's art if you, like everyone else, realise it's meaningless?!? Don't you think it's a wee bit hypocritical to bring something up to support your argument, then denounce it a few posts later? Welcome to the ignore list.
 
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Old 2002-12-27, 10:52 PM   #55
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Default Re: Re: Quicksilver chill out!

Quote:
Originally posted by Quicksilver
Then why the Hell bring it up??? Why bring it up in support of Lee's art if you, like everyone else, realise it's meaningless?!? Don't you think it's a wee bit hypocritical to bring something up to support your argument, then denounce it a few posts later? Welcome to the ignore list.
I meant that another post it copied by accident.
 



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Old 2002-12-28, 01:54 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cyberstrike nTo
Try to respect other people's OPINIONS.
Why? I respect the right of others to have opinions... which doesn't alter the fact I regard many of those opinions as idiocy. Two different things, y'see...
 
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Old 2003-01-15, 10:23 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zath
Nobody forces you to buy any of the extra covers.
Exactomundo - i didn't. Still so what about some "bloops" sure look at the US cartoon series it had bigger holes and inconsistancies in it.

However since i am from the UK, i only managed to get half the issues before Hasbro cut supply over here off. I have to wait until Titan Books publishes their G1 collection - the entire series in one book, RRP 15.
 

Last edited by Mabus; 2003-01-15 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 2003-01-15, 10:48 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mabus
Still so what about some "bloops" sure look at the US cartoon series it had bigger holes and inconsistancies in it.
And? Just because something else fails, doesn't mean failure is okay... I'm not the US series' most staunch defender, but DW have, what, 70 ish images per issue, seemingly flexible deadlines, a large amount of time to complete their stories. I can't estimate how many frames there are in even the most slap-dash US episode, but it's probably got at least a zero on the end, episodes had to be churned out at a rate that allowed weekly screening for much of the year, and I would expect that in 1985 research resources were a to a minimum... The cartoon was created to do little other than to showcase toys, an excuse Lee doesn't have... This doesn't excuse the US series any more than the poor quality of the show excuses DW, however... Also, if you read the essay through, I'm not criticising colouring errors or even going as hard as is possible on plot inconsistencies... I'm noting the inherent failings of the mini-series, all of which were avoidable.

Also, if you haven't read the last issues of the series, are you really in a good position to judge, especially seeing as #5 & 6 are where it finally falls to pieces?

BTW: I can find copies of 5 & 6 in the UK if you want them, PM me
 

Last edited by Cliffjumper; 2003-01-15 at 10:56 PM.
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Old 2003-01-16, 09:59 PM   #59
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Mabus, I saw about 30+ copies of issue 6 in Nottingham yesterday and a few issues 5's if you live anywhere near there.
 
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Old 2003-01-21, 06:10 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cyberstrike nTo:
Try to respect other people's OPINIONS.
If you want your opinions to be respected, you have to back them with supporting arguments, which you have failed to do... you can't expect Quicksilver to think anything of what you've said if you simply continually counter what he says without decent arguments.
Look at how the discussion has progressed recently:

-you argue that too many people see Furman as the only one who can write TF correctly.
-Quicksilver replies that this is not what he is arguing, and cites several other TF writers who have done very good work
-you respond that these non-Furman writers are irrelevent, and, "going back to the subject at hand," you say that art is subjective and that you like Pat Lee's
-Quicksilver follows you into the art question, citing Lee's strength's and weaknesses, and pointing out that some earlier TF artists were far superior because they, despite their faults, could draw what he thinks are the most important elements of cartoon art
-you respond, once again, that art is subjective, and that you like Rob Liefild's, and furthermore that transfans don't give non-Furman writers a chance

Your problem is that, while you state your opinions, you do not back them with any sort of convincing proof. You could argue that Pat Lee's style is very good, and say why, but when you fail to give any evidence to support your opinion in a discussion largely tending towards the opposite opinion, you can't expect anyone to take it seriously.
 

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