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Old 2003-02-24, 10:34 PM   #41
Strafe
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fat Dragon
strafe i know you can try harder to faze my view



...please realize this before posting something as asinine as your sig pic right there

So how long have you been without a sense of sarcasm?

there is no moral relativism involved...immorality doesn't stem from countries but rather individuals...GOVERNMENTS ARE NOT REACTIONARY...we are preemptive (and this is not parallel to our stance of war)...preemptive meaning we take action based on the actions of others, and the perceived reactions of the economy...

Red Herring, Irrelevant.

my point meaning that people die is to have you realize the severity of the situation

I do believe I know the severity of the situation. However I believe that you do not quite realize the consequences of war.

you people living in your shelered homes can't realize how its like to live in fear of your life every single day

Ah just had to end on such a fallacy didn't you?
Listen, the potential war is outrageously immoral and...

...why am I even doing this? We've got tons of topics that list the anti-war argument in exhaustive detail and I'm tired of repeating myself. If you are so sure of the pro-war stance I dare you to read em and see if you can refute them. I don't have the time to waste on people who's walls of ignorance are titanium reinforced with logic-guard armor plating.

And in case you missed it, here's my sig.

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Strafe. You're a dick. Ishin_ookami - Dec 1st 2003
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Old 2003-02-24, 10:34 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by CloudStrifer
domino effect?

throwing neo capitalism on me eh?

nope...removing saddam will not distabilize the whole region...iraq has been crippled for the last decade...even the kurds are gaining a foothold in nortern iraq

"he doesn't have it there is no proof"...there difference between the two...the is proof that during the past decade they have been producing and testing biological agents and have been active in their missile programs...our sanctions cripple the people...not the regime

i'm not flaming you...i'm merely pointing out you are using a completely useless argument to refute my points...

since you offered up some points to your "i have lived there argument" i will acknowledge it

the domino effect doesn't hold water...same could be said for afghanistan...but of course pakistan (a state known to be the spawn point for many terrorists of the 90's...same with saudi arabia, yemen, and syria) but of course we didn't ostracise the paki's soon after but instead we reacxhed argeements

iraq's economy is already crippled...if the domino effect would have happened it would have happened 5 years ago

i stick by my points, thank you for playing
 



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Old 2003-02-24, 10:40 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strafe
Listen, the potential war is outrageously immoral and...

...why am I even doing this? We've got tons of topics that list the anti-war argument in exhaustive detail and I'm tired of repeating myself. If you are so sure of the pro-war stance I dare you to read em and see if you can refute them. I don't have the time to waste on people who's walls of ignorance are titanium reinforced with logic-guard armor plating.

And in case you missed it, here's my sig.

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the basis of war is death and destruction, next comes the political after effects

i am well aware of the consequences and the precendents of war...dont think that i don't know...we have lost a lot of our freedoms since sept 11 like during the war times in 1930's

red herring? not quite

"Ah, so since other people/countries act immorally, that means we should too?

Gotta love that justification."

its not justification...its what governments do...i don't wait for them to mess with us before we mess with them...that zen master crap doesn't apply in government...countries dont' act immoral...they act basically, that it...morality is thrown out the door in politics

i'm done arguing...i should be working instead i'm wasting time...

EDIT: contrary to popular belief...being pro-war doens't make you closed minded and illogical

we have different beliefs and the basis for each view on society is complex
 



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Old 2003-02-24, 10:41 PM   #44
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I grew up in the Middle East also, so... here is my solution to solving the Middle East's problems

Israel: Set up a free Palestine. Tell Israel to **** off because its continually waffling on the situation. Let the UN come in and hardnose both Israel and the newly formed Palestine. Get rid of Arafat, let Palestine have elections.

Saudi Arabia: take our troops out of there. It pisses off a lot of people in Saudi Arabia that they are there, and that reverbrates into the cities of Mecca and Medina (holy cities), from there people pick up on it and it turns into hate for the US.

Iraq: Let the UN take care of Saddam. We should go after Osama instead. Let the Kurds have their own nation (northern Iraq basically) because they basically already control it.

Everywhere else, instead of coming across as a bully, come across as benevolent. 96% of the Middle East owns a TV set (no really, its true, you can get a sony tv for about $100 there). Engage in "propaganda" that shows how we are helping them. Most of the people in the Middle East are poor and illiterate, they will gravitate towards whoever gives them hope. That is why Osama is so big, he offers them a twisted sense of hope. Instead of using the gov't there only for oil, we should see what the people of the nations want.

Yeah, its prob never gonna happen. Instead Bush is going to jump into a war against Iraq, make the US look worse. Give Al-Qaeda a field day with "they are killing innocent people" and guess what, we are going to have another 9/11, only worse. gfg Bush.

If you are going to flame me on if I know the area, I grew up in Saudi Arabia, and travel back to the middle east every year to do humanitarian aid in Iraq/Palestine.

Quote:
Originally posted by Fat Dragon
oh do please enlighten me

so you are now qualified as the leading expert on how to DEAL WITH THE MIDDLE EAST SITUATION

right?

of course you are because you have lived THERE!!!

oooo

you can spend the rest of your life someplace and still be ignorant

liek most of us who live in america

so you think war is not the best course of action to disarm a dictator who is playing games with the international community and who IS a palpable threat to humanity

yes i think you know what to do

EDIT: because you have lived there

so you now know the views of the people who live there now...who have of course been changed over the years and have been disfranchised for quite some time

you also know that indeed saddam doesn't have any weapons capable of killing people in large amounts because yes

yoiu lived there and have had dinner and a back rub with him

oh yes you do yes you do...

you know jack and ****...and jack just left town

offer me more compelling proof and evidence and i will argue

 
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Old 2003-02-24, 10:45 PM   #45
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FD - The region is already destabilizing into a domino effect of chaos.

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/ira...691940,00.html

"But the presence of a 5,000-strong force would raise the concerns of the US and the Arab world that military intervention in Iraq would lead to a permanent disintegration of the country, according to the British daily."

Gee, this is good how?
 
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Old 2003-02-24, 11:04 PM   #46
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See I told you...LT, did a good job

The domino effect is not economic its a fact...
 
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Old 2003-02-24, 11:05 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strafe
FD - The region is already destabilizing into a domino effect of chaos.

http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/ira...691940,00.html

"But the presence of a 5,000-strong force would raise the concerns of the US and the Arab world that military intervention in Iraq would lead to a permanent disintegration of the country, according to the British daily."

Gee, this is good how?
its been that way for decades...i wouldn't call it a domino effect so simply...yet

well hell i wished it was true...then those islamic fundies get a wake up call...can't call it a domino effect till two or more are toppled...


http://byrd.senate.gov/byrd_newsroom...oct2002_2.html

^ interesting read

also...leaving the situation to the EU and the UN is pretty ummm presumptuous...

countries in teh EU have trade ties with iraq...and have little or no military presence...don't think that the whole EU represents all of europe...other european coutries back us...(spain for example)

and the UN as of this decade have been inconsistent with their humanitarian pursuits...eh fack it

i'm done...for sure today...

i will return foolish mortals

back to work
 



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Old 2003-02-25, 12:55 AM   #48
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I'd like to point out that while there are a few European Gov'ts willing to offer support, the people of their countries, however, do not support a war. Australia, Spain, and the United Kingdom are three good examples of this. However, it should be noted that most of these ruling political figures have most likely cost their ability to retain political power come time for elections. So like Bush in 2004, these guys will be in the trash.
 
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Old 2003-02-25, 01:17 AM   #49
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Pfff, sadly Blair won't be... the Lib Dems sadly aren't strong enough, and I would be far from surprised if the Tories don't even exist by the next election...
 
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Old 2003-02-25, 01:21 AM   #50
Strafe
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Talking

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...mi_ea/iraq_718

Debate-alicious! Would be most interesting to see that, not that it'll ever happen of course...
 
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Old 2003-02-25, 02:16 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fat Dragon
so you say high school dropouts make up our military...what about the professional soldiers...the officers...our military is not daft and bullheaded

they defend us...with their lives and you dare insult them

and by the way...nothing is more WEAKER than to point out a persons spelling and grammarical mistakes just to further diminish the value of his point...people use that so they can shamelessly avoid arguing a strong point while using "oh you spelled something wrong" to ditract a readers attention from it

i'm out
1-Ah, but Alan saying that war protestors are made up of shiftless bums is entirely valid? What would you say if I personally observed people dropping out of high school and joining the army? That's just as valid a line of argument as his. Oh yeah, and they aren't defending us in this war, AND part of what they died for in the past was to give us the freedom to criticize them and the government.

2-Noooo, a weak argument is one that has spelling on par with someone in the third grade. IF YOU CAN'T F.UCKING SPELL, THEN DON'T EXPECT PEOPLE TO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY YOU DUMB SH.IT.

3-I certainly hope you're out you ignorant ****.
 
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Old 2003-02-25, 06:21 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim
However, it should be noted that most of these ruling political figures have most likely cost their ability to retain political power come time for elections. So like Bush in 2004, these guys will be in the trash.
Actually we're in a damned if you do and damned if you don't position with our political leaders at the moment so despite the fact the the opposition leader is against going to war, he will most likely not get voted into power due to the fact that he is just plain crap.
 

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Old 2003-02-25, 06:40 AM   #53
Fat Dragon
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Auros
1-Ah, but Alan saying that war protestors are made up of shiftless bums is entirely valid? What would you say if I personally observed people dropping out of high school and joining the army? That's just as valid a line of argument as his. Oh yeah, and they aren't defending us in this war, AND part of what they died for in the past was to give us the freedom to criticize them and the government.

2-Noooo, a weak argument is one that has spelling on par with someone in the third grade. IF YOU CAN'T F.UCKING SPELL, THEN DON'T EXPECT PEOPLE TO TAKE YOU SERIOUSLY YOU DUMB SH.IT.

3-I certainly hope you're out you ignorant ****.
getting all emotional

at least you haven't professed your undying love for me

i was not defending alan...but i was defending the troops in america

those who enlist...whether they drop out or not are still defenders of our land...i don't care...they may have dropped out of high school but at least they have been shifted to an organization that can make use of them

instead of sitting at home wasting space

what i meant on the spelling error issue was that some peopel disregard an entire post because a few words were spelled wrong...not that the entire post was riddled with grammarical errors and with a complete lack of sentence structure

comon auros...you didn't have to smother my argument with another, and you didn't have to blow it out of proportion either

ignorant?

i've researched and i have my own political views on these issues...i also acknoledge the opposition, but calling someone ignorant because their views differ from yours (from experience, research and appraisal) is very childish

i haven't done such a thing in a long time...i might have verbally bashed someone but ignorant is just out there

many people i know believe me to be a learned person, not one to be ignorant of the ways of the world...my view maybe much more jaded (hence my apathy and anger)

but if you say so...then i say your view is very naive

i will cease this argument because it is foolish to go on...especially in a anti-war dominant crowd...i try not to enforce my point of view onto the people, and it seems most of you will listen but will not digest what views i have to present (ala sheba bashing in the forums) so i will refrain before i make any more enemies

but i will input from time to time
 



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Last edited by Fat Dragon; 2003-02-25 at 06:43 AM.
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Old 2003-02-25, 06:49 AM   #54
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Y'know, I'm sure I'm not the only one here skimming and pretty much disregarding your arguments on the basis that you're obviously not intelligent or thoughtful enough to be bothered to spell correctly...

I wasn't necessarily attacking U.S. soldiers (my cousin just enlisted), but I was attacking dipsh*ts in the army like Alan.

As for my calling both you and Alan ignorant...it's not childish because it's the truth. You say you've researched the matter, but you've yet to give us ANY indication that you have, in fact, done so. Instead, you just spout the same ignorant and meaningless rhetoric Alan spouts.

Also, considering you've admitted that this is an unjust war for the economy, how you can be for it with good conscience is beyone me...
 
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Old 2003-02-25, 07:04 AM   #55
Fat Dragon
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Auros
Y'know, I'm sure I'm not the only one here skimming and pretty much disregarding your arguments on the basis that you're obviously not intelligent or thoughtful enough to be bothered to spell correctly...

I wasn't necessarily attacking U.S. soldiers (my cousin just enlisted), but I was attacking dipsh*ts in the army like Alan.

As for my calling both you and Alan ignorant...it's not childish because it's the truth. You say you've researched the matter, but you've yet to give us ANY indication that you have, in fact, done so. Instead, you just spout the same ignorant and meaningless rhetoric Alan spouts.

Also, considering you've admitted that this is an unjust war for the economy, how you can be for it with good conscience is beyone me...
okay

it read over the whole thread and it doesn't seem ANYONE has pushed the envelope to offer up some sources of information

i usually read the christian science monitor (unbiased surprisingly), cnn, foxnews (biased but noteworthy), the guardian, and too much more

your view of my ignorance at this moment is based solely on the fact that my opinion differs from yours...i have offered up a source on the senate website where a house member explained that iraq have been developing weapons this past decade

http://byrd.senate.gov/byrd_newsroom...oct2002_2.html

http://byrd.senate.gov/byrd_newsroom...bruary_12.html

do you really want me to delve further? i wll but at the moment it will change nothing

my view is rhetoric as long as it differs from yours

alan's view is rhetoric because he carelessly attacks...i offfer up 3 basic points for the war

1. Saddam is capable of attacking nearby states
2. The UN resolutions and sanctions have been ineffective and will be ineffective, mainl because they affect the iraqi pepole the most...sources that this is true can be heard on the news everyday, european countries have been pushing for "tighter" inspections for the past few months...how much tighter can it be without a foreign military presence?
3. No one has proven that Saddam IS NOT a threat to the USA

in short most of your arguments are like this

I am against a war in Iraq, because it may trigger more trouble than we thought possible.
And if history repeats itself there will eventually be another tyrant running the country.

(or something along that lines)

being a coward doesn't mean a thing...you can protest and preach peace all you want...its not going to happen as long as people continue to be unjust...and violence regrettably is the only way...don't go ghandi on me just yet

that's it...after this you can verbally bash my conservative ass all you want...
 



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Old 2003-02-25, 07:36 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Fat Dragon
it read over the whole thread and it doesn't seem ANYONE has pushed the envelope to offer up some sources of information

1. Saddam is capable of attacking nearby states
2. The UN resolutions and sanctions have been ineffective and will be ineffective, mainl because they affect the iraqi pepole the most...sources that this is true can be heard on the news everyday, european countries have been pushing for "tighter" inspections for the past few months...how much tighter can it be without a foreign military presence?
3. No one has proven that Saddam IS NOT a threat to the USA

in short most of your arguments are like this

I am against a war in Iraq, because it may trigger more trouble than we thought possible.
And if history repeats itself there will eventually be another tyrant running the country.

that's it...after this you can verbally bash my conservative ass all you want...
You can read? Then read harder, it's all there.

1-So? North Korea just launched a f*cking missile into the Sea of Japan AND they have nuclear warheads, they could nuke US, not to mention nearby countries. Why do we suddenly care about what Saddam does to nearby countries when we still don't give a flip about what goes on in South America, Africa, or (non-Russian) Asia?
2-Duh, they won't work, but pushing the war before there's conclusive proof is just pissing the rest of the world off at us. Bush could've waited and still had his damn, precious war.
3-And nobody's proven that he IS a thread to the USA...and anyway, he still doesn't have delivery systems worth poop, whereas North Korea does...AND they have nuclear warheads, something they've yet to prove Hussein has...

That's funny, I don't recall making any arguments like that, but a war in Iraq won't go like the war in Afghanistan, we'll make sure all the loose ends are tied and all the oil in our hands after this one, I mean, what does Afghanistan have that would motivate us to actually help them out and prevent another extremist faction from rising?

It would be oh so easy to bash your sorry little bottom, but you do such a wonderful job of making yourself look stupid that I feel rather inadequate for the task...
 
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Old 2003-02-25, 08:50 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Auros
That's funny, I don't recall making any arguments like that, but a war in Iraq won't go like the war in Afghanistan, we'll make sure all the loose ends are tied and all the oil in our hands after this one, I mean, what does Afghanistan have that would motivate us to actually help them out and prevent another extremist faction from rising?
They have boatloads of dope. Seriously Afganhstan is one large poppy field and Bush will do nothing about it because of the warlords need to be kept in check and destroying these crops would probably bring about that uprising.
I need more proof of a peaceful resolution to get rid of Saddam. So far the arguement has been against Bush because of this or that. Yet you want your cake and eat it too. SO I'm, asking for peaceful ways to disarm the man. SO far I have not heard it. The UN is worthless and prevented the US from taking out Saddam in the first place. Then he tortured the uprisers so its a mess that needs to be cleaned up. DON"t take this stand as Pro war cuz right now Im on the fence. The man aint gonna surrender to harsh language.
 
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Old 2003-02-25, 09:39 AM   #58
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There is good people in Iraq, but they have had over 10 years to evacuate. And the captain (saddam) should go down with his ship (socialist Iraq) I think the world would be a better place without him. He mocks this Great nation which was founded upon freedom. And if you think I am narrow minded I am not. I am closely associated with people from St. Barts (which is a French territory) and an very inspirational 64 year old from Togo Africa who absolutley despises President Bush as does his whole country it seems... anyway these people I consider brothers but they have their opposing opinion of Presitent Bush, and the United States in general. Personally I think they are misinformed. But through them I can see it from other nation's prospective.
I really think it is sad that so many people (mostly the Left) in this country are so addiment to opose what is going on in Iraq. Sorry but who are we to question U.S. Intelligence. It is important for the general public not to know every detail of what is going on. It is just that easier for information to get into the wrong hands. Sept 11 may not of happened if the Clinton ammin. didn't put the CIA on life support. Sadly we didn't even see it coming. Maybe we did, on the Goddam TV screen as it was happening. Sorry I personally never want to witness somthing like that again...ever.
Also there has been info that Al Quieda is indeed involved with Iraq. Here's the scenario; Iraq makes weapons, Iraq sells weapons to Al quieda, Al Quieda G-hods all over our asses in an insane attempt to start a Holy War.
Also we need to support our troops. They are the brave soldiers going into battle. How selfish is it for us to oppose and complicate the war effort. If we all protested it, then what are they fighting for? It's too late for the war to halt. The troops are already over there. It's just a matter of time now. I think this nation needs to stop their petty bickering and stand united. What about the simple phrase "United we stand devided we fall". How much harder do we have to make this on ourselves. WE as a nation need to get it together. If the draft were reinstated all these "hippies" are going to have to do what is necessary as a citizen of this country. If you ask me there is more meaning in being a soldier if you have somthing to fight for. If not it will be that much more painful.
I stand behind the President's decision. l wish more felt the same as I.
 

Last edited by Jtotheiso187; 2003-02-25 at 09:46 AM.
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Old 2003-02-25, 10:02 AM   #59
Sir Auros
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Default Re: My opinion

Quote:
Originally posted by Jtotheiso187
If we all protested it, then what are they fighting for?
For us to have the freedom to protest it...
 
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Old 2003-02-25, 01:41 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by Grimlock
...the opposition leader is against going to war, he will most likely not get voted into power due to the fact that he is just plain crap.
Bit of an understatement. Crean is a dickhead! Howard is better than people give credit for. I support him anyway.
 



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