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Old 2003-03-30, 09:36 PM   #21
Halfshell
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"It seems I forgot to buy one" my arse.

I know exactly the conversation I'd have with any inspector. It's "Yes, I have one but I'll be buggered if I know where I left it. Go check your records, g'bye." Or alternatively fish out a bank statement illustrating their obscene monthly direct debit...
 
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Old 2003-03-30, 09:47 PM   #22
RID Scourge
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TV license inspectors?
 
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Old 2003-03-30, 09:51 PM   #23
Silly Cow
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stuart Denyer
Cooperate? No, there's a principle to be observed... take the power into your own hands, be observant of the law, and shuffle them toward making mistakes which you can screw them with. Never be persuaded to leave the shop floor, where you have the best opportunity to publically embarass them for their incompetence.
I admit, it's much cooler to bug the hell out of the security, but still, they are just people doing their jobs. They get paid for trying to prevent people stealing. Sometimes they make a mistake and stop a wrong person. It's not like you haven't made any mistakes in your job.

During my teenage years I thought it would be quite cool to harrass the security but once I got a job at a supermarket and got to know the security guards there I realized it's not that simple. I believe many on this board are/have been working at a retail store. They know all about difficult/stupid customers. Well, to the guards they are the equivalent of the people who get stopped by the security and make a big fuss about it.
 


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Old 2003-03-30, 10:11 PM   #24
Denyer
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silly Cow
It's not like you haven't made any mistakes in your job.
I would never accuse one my pupils of theft (or any similar crime) without substantiable proof. Nor do I set out to harass anyone who isn't harassing me; what I will do is go out of my way to make suffer anyone who starts on me first.

TV licensing? A particularly archaic UK custom, though one which guarantees a slightly less biased output than network-dominated airwaves. However, I've rarely watched TV during the uni parts of my courses, and don't lug around a TV... ergo, my response usually extends to "I'm going back to bed and -- regardless of the flat door being left unlocked -- you're technically trespassing, so piss off."
 
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Old 2003-03-30, 10:11 PM   #25
Autoprime720
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i dont think ive ever been in a store that hasnt watched me to some degree... ive always just dealt with it..it doesnt even bother me...if anything ill stare back at them
 
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Old 2003-03-30, 10:42 PM   #26
Silly Cow
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stuart Denyer
I would never accuse one my pupils of theft (or any similar crime) without substantiable proof. Nor do I set out to harass anyone who isn't harassing me; what I will do is go out of my way to make suffer anyone who starts on me first.

TV licensing? A particularly archaic UK custom, though one which guarantees a slightly less biased output than network-dominated airwaves.
Stealing isn't a problem in schools. It is a problem in stores. So the comparison really isn't valid here.

And you shouldn't consider a guard stopping you as a harassment. He's doing his job. And when it happens, you can do two things. Cooperate, go to the security room, open your pockets to show you have nothing to hide and walk away. Or you can be dragged to the room screaming and kicking and wait for the police to arrive before showing you haven't stolen anything. Which would be the better way? Is showing that he guards were wrong in public really worth all that trouble?

We also have a TV license here in Finland. It's about 84 per year. And it seems that the inspectors use the same ways here too. The propblem here is that there are very few programs I watch on the public channels. Most of the shows I watch are on the commercial networks who also have to pay a license to the public network.
 


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Old 2003-03-30, 10:44 PM   #27
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I tend to co-operate as on the whole I have nothing to hide, regardless of principle, and I've been on the other side of the fence and know how trying anyone being awkward can be.... though I generally tried to be rather amiable when inquiring...

I mean, I got a 5 HMV voucher for my above troubles...
 
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Old 2003-03-30, 11:01 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silly Cow
Stealing isn't a problem in schools.
Optimistic, aren't you? In fact, it's considerably more a problem when the people concerned have to be in the same room as each other the next day, and the day after that, and...

Quote:
Originally posted by Silly Cow
And you shouldn't consider a guard stopping you as a harassment. He's doing his job.
No, he's failing to do it... which means he ought to be removed from it. Which is why dealing directly with management is the best course of action.

Quote:
Originally posted by Silly Cow
Cooperate, go to the security room, open your pockets to show you have nothing to hide and walk away. Or you can be dragged to the room screaming and kicking and wait for the police to arrive
They might get away with that wherever you are... but since the UK hasn't descended into a fascist state yet, reasonable force and a citizen's arrest is the most they could attempt. And they wouldn't get very far, I can assure you.

1) It's very easy to misjudge reasonable force, which means you can get away with a great deal as the victimised party.

2) If they're stupid enough to insist that you turn out your pockets in private, as opposed to publically on the counter, you have even more ammunition to use against them.

As I say, the 'best' way is to ensure that the idiot gets fired, if necessary involving the police yourself...
 
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Old 2003-03-30, 11:17 PM   #29
Autoprime720
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stuart Denyer
Optimistic, aren't you? In fact, it's considerably more a problem when the people concerned have to be in the same room as each other the next day, and the day after that, and...

No, he's failing to do it... which means he ought to be removed from it. Which is why dealing directly with management is the best course of action.

They might get away with that wherever you are... but since the UK hasn't descended into a fascist state yet, reasonable force and a citizen's arrest is the most they could attempt. And they wouldn't get very far, I can assure you.

1) It's very easy to misjudge reasonable force, which means you can get away with a great deal as the victimised party.

2) If they're stupid enough to insist that you turn out your pockets in private, as opposed to publically on the counter, you have even more ammunition to use against them.

As I say, the 'best' way is to ensure that the idiot gets fired, if necessary involving the police yourself...
that doesnt happen here either...if a guard was to do that and find that nothing was stolen he'd lose his job instantly...they're very careful about that..
 
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Old 2003-03-30, 11:24 PM   #30
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Exactly. People given a position of responsibility occasionally need to be reminded of operational limits; don't bully others, and stand up against those who try to behave so to yourself. It's unfortunately the case that a bit of power often corrupts more than a lot.
 
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Old 2003-03-30, 11:26 PM   #31
Silly Cow
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stuart Denyer
Optimistic, aren't you? In fact, it's considerably more a problem when the people concerned have to be in the same room as each other the next day, and the day after that, and...
I'm not sure at what school you're teaching, but the only time there really was a threat to be a victim of theft was at 1.-5. grade when someone stole my pencils. After that it was simply keeping all my valuables in my pockets and nothing happened.

Quote:
No, he's failing to do it... which means he ought to be removed from it. Which is why dealing directly with management is the best course of action.
Odd. I know almost for a fact that if someone would tell our chief manager that a security guard had stopped someone who hadn't stolen anything the guard would not lose his job.

Quote:
They might get away with that wherever you are... but since the UK hasn't descended into a fascist state yet, reasonable force and a citizen's arrest is the most they could attempt. And they wouldn't get very far, I can assure you.
Ooh, Finland, which is often recognised as one of the most democratic nations in the world, a fascist state? A cheap shot!

Infact, I don't know what the guards would do to a resisting suspect. What I've seen, they either empty their pockets on public, empty their pockets in private or run away.

Quote:
2) If they're stupid enough to insist that you turn out your pockets in private, as opposed to publically on the counter, you have even more ammunition to use against them.
If you're talking about legal ammunition, then there is a major difference in our legislation. But the first thing is to ask the customer to open their pockets in public. If the customer doesn't comply than the guards ask them to do it in private. If they refuse then the guards call the police.

And as a side note, there is a recommendation that the guards would be given police rights at such situations. I'm not sure what is the status of that recommendation but it is considered by the parliament.

EDIT after reading the replys posted during the writing:
I agree that the guards shouldn't just stop whoever they like, but they are only human, and Errare humanum est. Would you like to be fired from your job because of one mistake. I. Think. Not.

Let's just say that someone delibiratly acts suspicious. He takes things in a store and puts them in his pocket. Then in hiding he puts them away and walks through the cash register. The guards stop him (obviously) and find nothing. Should the guards be fired because of that?
 


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Last edited by Silly Cow; 2003-03-30 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 2003-03-30, 11:27 PM   #32
Cliffjumper
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stuart Denyer:

It's unfortunately the case that a bit of power often corrupts more than a lot.
Look at our staff [/inappropriate comment]
 
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Old 2003-03-30, 11:34 PM   #33
Autoprime720
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Look at our staff [/inappropriate comment]
damn, thats low...


and about the school thing...yes having to worry about theft in school is a major problem everywere...having to worry about theft anywhere is a problem...theres no where ur safe..
 
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Old 2003-03-30, 11:39 PM   #34
Denyer
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silly Cow
I know almost for a fact that if someone would tell our chief manager that a security guard had stopped someone who hadn't stolen anything the guard would not lose his job.
I strongly suspect that assault on a customer would be viewed differently.

Quote:
Originally posted by Silly Cow
Ooh, Finland, which is often recognised as one othe most democratid nations in the world, a fascist state? A cheap shot!
Aside from the fact that I have no idea where you come from (being as you prefer to fill your location field with something else), if security guards can get away with physically accosting shoppers... you aren't doing as well as a society as you seem to think.

Quote:
Originally posted by Silly Cow
Infact, I don't know what the guards would do to a resisting suspect. What I've seen, they either empty their pockets on public, empty their pockets in private or run away.
Oh, I'm perfectly co-operative... within parameters which ensure I remain in control of a situation. Specifically, never allow yourself to be removed from a public situation to a private one, as it implies guilt. Deal with the highest available tier of management, as it registers the seriousness with which you view the false allegation. At all times be irritatingly polite.

Quote:
Originally posted by Silly Cow
But the first thing is to ask the customer to open their pockets in public. If the customer doesn't comply than the guards ask them to do it in private. If they refuse then the guards call the police.
So... in fact, the 'dragging' situation was so much posturing on your part?

They don't actually have the right to detain a customer they do have the right to bar from the premises a customer who simply walks away, but that would presume that they could identify said person in future.
 
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Old 2003-03-30, 11:43 PM   #35
Denyer
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Quote:
Originally posted by Silly Cow
Would you like to be fired from your job because of one mistake. I. Think. Not.
If I did physical injury to a teenager trying to detain them thinking they'd stolen something, I would expect to be prosecuted. Physical restraint is justified to prevent self-harm or that of others... not for convenience.

Quote:
Originally posted by Silly Cow
Let's just say that someone delibiratly acts suspicious. He takes things in a store and puts them in his pocket. Then in hiding he puts them away and walks through the cash register. The guards stop him (obviously) and find nothing. Should the guards be fired because of that?
Very 1984-ish...

Quote:
Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Look at our staff [/inappropriate comment]
I'll deal with you outside...
 
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Old 2003-03-30, 11:53 PM   #36
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ah..1984...u mean that doent really happen....its just a book??
 
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Old 2003-03-30, 11:54 PM   #37
Silly Cow
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Quote:
Originally posted by Stuart Denyer
ISo... in fact, the 'dragging' situation was so much posturing on your part?
Not entirely. I was just referring to this part.

Quote:
in the event of anyone ever actually being stupid enough to accuse me of anything, a loud (and public) confrontation will occur,
I interpreted that as you would you loudly protest the situation when the guards would propably "politetly" steer you towards the security room.

And it seems we have a different take on what it is to stop a customer. I meant it as a situation where a guard stops a customer saying he believes that the customer may be holding some items that have not been paid and asks him to empty his pockets.
 


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Old 2003-03-30, 11:55 PM   #38
Denyer
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Quote:
Originally posted by Autoprime720
ah..1984...u mean that doent really happen....its just a book??
...it's Christmas Day, 1983, and the ink on the Patriot Act is drying...
 
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Old 2003-03-30, 11:57 PM   #39
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Old 2003-03-30, 11:58 PM   #40
Computron
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Also the security guards can't do you with theft till you physically leave the store premesis - as such if you grab a load of stuff and walk to the exit and just watch them react and even if you pass the alarms and they go of fthey still can't do a thing till you put one step outside the store.

On another note some moron guard in San Fransisco stopped me when I was there, I wandered i, walked around the store looking for some transformers (just checking as you do) and as I left I heard a beep so I naturally stopped, It was the till by the door beepiong so I walked out, the guard ran out after me and demanded I emptyed my pockets as they were full - It turned out that it was just my wallet was big cause I had about 20 dollars worth of quarters.

Good job I was to drunk to drunk to get embarissed about being stopped

I rectified this by rejoining my friends on the pier to carry on drinking
 

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