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Old 2003-11-20, 09:11 PM   #21
CounterPunch
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i think another problem with dw is that its honestly by fans, i mean look at the amount of cameos mick tried to put into war and piece,

so i am sorry cliffy, it seems i read ur post in the wrong light, i just am bored of reading the usual dw are ****, pat lees art is inflated and all that stuff.. im gonna use a really weird example here which someone was talking to me about which is basically the same thing as has happened with me

ur working at like a computer call center and all day u have idiots phoning up who like say "how do i turn my computer on" then towards the end u have someone phone up wanting genuine help and u just treat em as if theyre stupid cos u cant be bothered to help em.

this is the same thing, ive read so much anti dw stuff that my head just exploded (not literally)
 
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Old 2003-11-20, 11:47 PM   #22
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Originally posted by CounterPunch
i think another problem with dw is that its honestly by fans, i mean look at the amount of cameos mick tried to put into war and piece,
This is not being a fan. It's called posing. Say it with me: posing...

The occasional easter egg is nice. Throwing in more characters purely for the hell of it every five minutes, then failing to wrap up plot points because of it... is bad writing.
 
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Old 2003-11-21, 12:38 AM   #23
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okay, first of all... Do any of you know armadas nickname amongst most of the fanbase, Iaconhub has prettymuch declared it Pokeformers. and all the fans pretty much agree that its TF's with the initial concept of pokemon thrown in, along with razorblades and salt and lemon juice just to make sure it really hurts. I saw the first initial run of armada, and it really did seem like more of an afterthought compared to G1 and War Within. Now, I like pat lees stuff. Very japanese originated and thats what Ive been reading the past few years. But even pat lees work on armada was pretty bad.

When you consider the TV show, with it's horribly annoying kids, juvenile dialouge, horrendous voice acting, and G1 cartoon rejected scripts for the first 40 or so episodes, Is it any wonder DW didnt take it seriously? It was a cash cow to them to be used and then slaughtered when it was no longer profitible. Thank goodness Furman has actually managed to come in and make it worth reading. So, DW pretty much knows that while many of Armadas readership were adults, the majority are children that are digging on the TV show. Deal with it! Hasbro has thier foot firmly on DW's throat on this, and they are insisting that even in armada, those damn kids be kept in, just to stick with tv show continuity, as well as several other plot and character points as well. Which explains how the end of both the comic and toon, has the TF's in similar positions, just by different means. I still love what furman has done with it, but man would I like hasbro to cease screwing with TF continuity.

Next up, Cliffy. Cliffy Cliffy Cliffy. Yknow, Ive been hanging out on the Transfans forum, hearing much about you. Ive read your essays, and Cliff... you really are beating a dead horse. look, I already replied heavily to your DW disaster post, I even sent many of my friends that absoloutly love the DW transformer comics, and others that dont to read your initial DWD essay. The fans asked me how and why someone could have something against the new comics, others wanted to see what other flaws people had seen, Knowing how passionate you are about your point, I sent them the link, and many asked me not to send likes to trash like that again. You make some good points cliff, and some others... you are just so utterly in love with your own opinion, and hatred for the new style, that you cant even see how you might be wrong. I understand how others can agree with you, But I for one do not. Pat lees art is nigh generic to me after reading Japanese manga for 7 years, the storylines, plot threads, resolutions, all point to japanese influences of storytelling as well. Im used to it, others I know arent but think its cool anyways, you on the otherhand... and several others Ive talked to... well while your entitled to your opinion... I gotta paraphrase Armada Optimus Prime here... "Okay okay I get the Point'. Change the record man, overplay can kill a good song tut sweet, and your song aint all you think it is. Ill reply to your post on the war and peace story arc in good time, and with your permission to copy the whole thing. But It would be good to read a post from you that didnt reek of ire towards DW's treatment of G1 every now and then.
 
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Old 2003-11-21, 03:08 AM   #24
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Actually, I like the Armada cartoon. As a whole, I liked it a lot better than the original cartoon, and I liked it better than the Armada comic.

As for the whole business about it being geared toward kids, I kinda figured that it was (maybe kids a bit older than those watching the cartoon, but still kids), so that remark in issue 9 really doesn't bother me one bit. I must be missing the big deal of it all, I guess.
 
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Old 2003-11-21, 03:27 AM   #25
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What? A comic based on a toyline being geared for children? Surely you jest sir!

On a sidenote and trying to keep it as benign as possible, the abuse and flaming perpetrated by a certain member who likes hanging out in this forum is just ridiculous. Were a newbie to take such tones and be so quick on the trigger, he'd get his ass flamed off the board or banned or just provoked into doing something stupid.
 
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Old 2003-11-21, 03:35 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami

Next up, Cliffy. Cliffy Cliffy Cliffy. blah blah blah...
Yay! It's ishin_ookami here to save us from our racist anti-Pat Lee hating behavior!

Oh tell us Ishin why we are so very wrong for daring to think that Pat Lee and company are not very good comic book artists!

And continue to regale us with your brave stories of avoiding Best First's arguments at every turn! Or how you dodge your way between the hammer blows of Cliffy's logic!

Go on, it'll be entertaining.

Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.
 

Strafe. You're a dick. Ishin_ookami - Dec 1st 2003
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Old 2003-11-21, 07:01 AM   #27
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LOL, this should be getting fun reletivly soon. Guys relax - no need to get hostle or anything.

ishin_ookami the only complaint I have (other than 90% of your post didn't say much) is the tone of your post. You may be a big man on the Iacon hub or where ever the hell you're from. It's insulting and rather degrading, treating the members of this forum as a little less intelligent that you and the "rest of the fan base". If that wasn't your intention - fine - just pointing it out and maybe you should consider it for the future.

Oh and, while Cliffjumper may come across as abrasive and cocky, everyone of his arguments are well thought out and based in fact. The fact that he's pointing out DW's very obvious flaws isn't a bad thing, and if you get tired of it: Ignore it - don't read it, then you don't have to post about it - simple logic.

Basically - You're on a site, arguing about the virtues of a comic devoted to 40' giant transforming robots - Relax. No need to be rude - even if you don't like someone, be civil. Either that or Garand shows up with the pad lock
 

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Old 2003-11-21, 07:07 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Brave Maximus
No need to be rude - even if you don't like someone, be civil. Either that or Garand shows up with the pad lock
Someone needs to in this forum more often...
 
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Old 2003-11-21, 07:09 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Auros
Someone needs to in this forum more often...
What? Show up with a padlock, or be rude?
 
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Old 2003-11-21, 07:42 AM   #30
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Padlock. Definitely padlock.
 
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Old 2003-11-21, 12:02 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strafe
Yay! It's ishin_ookami here to save us from our racist anti-Pat Lee hating behavior!
Yes, I knew it was only a matter of time, but finally the fun has come to TFArchive.

First post and already it shows this is gonna be like deja vu.

The horse is not dead, it's still alive, kicking and publishing comics. And if someone thinks the product is low quality, and is able to construct logical arguements to back up his opinion, he's welcome to beat this horse, isn't he?
 

-Okay, the bomb's dropped. Life goes on. No amount of sulking or worrying changes that. We've got our own lives to live. In that regard, in five minutes time, I am using the autopilot on the Midnight Runner and taking it down the pub. If I go on my own, I go on my own.
-Well. Wait up, you horrible English git. While I'm around, you don't have to go anywhere on your own.
And, one by one, the others follow.
And, one by one, they begin to smile.
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Old 2003-11-21, 11:37 PM   #32
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ishin_ookami, I have read you post about 3 times and I still can't see what point you are trying to make,

Now after much disecting of it this is all I can sumise from it

Iaconhub has prettymuch declared it Pokeformers
point 1) You don't like the Armada cartoon

So they don't like the new animation style, stories etc.. fair enough, each to his own and whilst I haven't seen all the episodes the later ones are getting some very good reviews. And on a side note I believe, and I will argue with you that Pokemon is better than the original cartoon so I see "Pokeformers" as a compliment for the show

point 2) You disagree with Cliffy
Yet for all I've seen there is actually no argument against what he has said that is backed by facts other than opinion. Most points Cliffy makes has some facts to back them up rather than "Jo from accross the road agrees with this point so it is true".
 

I support a ban on powerposting
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Old 2003-11-23, 03:52 AM   #33
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Yes, I knew it was only a matter of time, but finally the fun has come to TFArchive.

The horse is not dead, it's still alive, kicking and publishing comics. And if someone thinks the product is low quality, and is able to construct logical arguements to back up his opinion, he's welcome to beat this horse, isn't he?
Quote:
Yet for all I've seen there is actually no argument against what he has said that is backed by facts other than opinion. Most points Cliffy makes has some facts to back them up rather than "Jo from accross the road agrees with this point so it is true".
Okay, Ive said it before on transfans, and Ill say it again here for the record. As a english tutor, I can honestly say that cliffs essays and such ARE well thought out and factual. Unfortunately, the point of an essay is to state an opinion, and cliffs opinion is always summed up by his topic sentence "I am unsatisfied". This is the driving force behind all his posts, and essays. Unfortunately, he has the rather obnoxious habit of cramming it down a persons throat with the zeal of a overagressive stripper. And all his FACTS are contorted to back up his opinion. Yet the same facts can be contorted to show how he is wrong. The weakness I find behind many of his points, is that he refuses to ackknowledge this, he writes entire essays and paragraphs about what bothered him, and mere cliff (no pun intended) notes on what he did like. Thats not factual, thats bias and shows he has no intention of respecting any G1 comic that does not cater to his own sense of comic guidelines. I personally respect a writer that presents all the facts, and allows a reader to judge based on them. Rather then telling you what to think and believe the way cliff does. His technical successes as a writer, to me anyways, are overshadowed by his inability to admit he could be mistaken.

As for armada, I loathe the cartoon with a passion. It is horrid for three reasons...

#1 horrid voice acting
#2 horrible writing, a TF should not talk like a mallrat thank you
#3. the kids. Can we please kill those freakin kids!

I will admit that it got BETTER around 35... and the unicron battles did entertain me somewhat, but we still had those kids, still had TF's talking like mallrats, and still had some of the most WHACKED plot developments ever. Starscream's demise was a great moment, the defining achievement of armada as a series, as was the final showdown between prime and Megatron with a tan, But I nearly smashed my TV screen with a hammer when those kids defeated unicron... instead i just went to throw up. The Armada comic on the otherhand, espescially furmans recent WC storyline, is SO much better, Furman has once again saved a mediocre TF comic series, and turned it into a success Yeeeeessssss.

And as for my respect for Pat Lee, I understand that there are those here who dont like his comic work. Thats fine. I do. And there are those here which I have argued with on Transfans about this, I could write an essay on why I do like it... and why I consider it difficult to take some of the complaints Ive seen on this, and transfans seriously. Ill sum it up by saying that as his work is influenced by shohen and mecha anime... Ill judge his work based on the shohen manga and anime Ive seen and watched, which is plenty. I cannot and do not compare him to artists like Wildman and seinior for two reasons. It is like comparing apples to seafood, meaning while seinior and Lee are both artists, that is the ony thing they have in common, they have trianed in and market to completely different schools of art and style, and I will judge them by those schools. the second is that Pat Lee's style is a style that has gotten VERY little exposure outside of japanese mediums, and thus is alien to many. When people just flat out say it sucks, they try to compare it to artists like seinior or wildman, which isnt right. I compare lee to artists like Katsuhiro otomo, Rumiko takahashi, Tomino and shoji kawamori. Artists like Wildman, ill compare to seinior, delbo, and other artists that have trained under and market to western styles and audiances. I think it is fantastic that Pat Lee has begun a company that has influences from both schools, and Ive been enjoying other DW titles such as Fate of the Blade and Warlands. It is refreshing seeing new concepts such as a blending of styles, and Pat Lee does it very well. Im sorry, I mean no offence, but I would take criticisms of pat lees style more seriously, would some that do criticize it had more exposure to japanese mediums, other then hentai and edited episodes of tekkaman and sailor moon. If I had never read a TF comic in my life, and said that the first few issues of furmans Matrix Quest were somewhat subpar, would I be taken seriously by most TF longtime fans, No. I would most likely be informed that he has written better, and worse. I feel the same way, that Pat Lee is niether the best, or worst at what he does. And before people condemn him, they should have a somewhat solid frame of refference as to where he stands in his craft. Do not take my stance as putting down the opinions of others, it is not so. I simply wonder how much of what pat lee does is alien to them. I do not expect pat lee to be liked by everyone. But I will give him his props for what he does VERY well, and his comics are illustrated in a style i have enjoyed for several years now. and Its great seeing TF's get the anime treatment again... this time with a more unique style then before.

Thats all I have to say bout that.

Thanks and good night.
 

Last edited by Ishin_ookami; 2003-11-23 at 04:14 AM.
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Old 2003-11-23, 04:27 AM   #34
Denyer
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
This is the driving force behind all his posts, and essays.
Take a look at his post count. How much of that have you read? Note how much of a generalisation you're making.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Ill sum it up by saying that as his work is influenced by shohen and mecha anime... Ill judge his work based on the shohen manga and anime Ive seen and watched, which is plenty. I cannot and do not compare him to artists like Wildman and seinior for two reasons. It is like comparing apples to seafood,
I wouldn't rate Pat Lee in comparison to Japanese animators and artists, either.

Yes, he's ripped off several of the original comicbook / animation models in the back of the Japanese "Transformers: Generations" book, but there are far too many rounded angles on them.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
If I had never read a TF comic in my life, and said that the first few issues of furmans Matrix Quest were somewhat subpar, would I be taken seriously by most TF longtime fans, No.
You've picked a bad example, because the first few parts of Matrix Quest are technically very poor.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
before people condemn him, they should have a somewhat solid frame of refference as to where he stands in his craft.
No, we judge each piece of work on its merits. Fact is, Pat (when he's not drawing Prime or Magnus) has produced some exemplary poster work. He's getting a little better at producing comic frame work. That's most due to Brad turning in a decent amount of dialogue per page... he can't walk all over Brad in the way he appears to have done to Chris.

Seriously, you think Chris wrote those wasted pages in G1Vol.1 with the Autobots just driving around? I give him more credit.

I could actually care less about character models if we got art which told the story effectively. But no, instead we get Devastator staring up at the end of an issue, and everyone wonders what it is he's staring at... nothing, as it turned out. If a comic book artist doesn't tell the story, nothing else matters.
 
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Old 2003-11-23, 04:45 AM   #35
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Yes, he's ripped off several of the animation models in the back of the Japanese "Transformers: Generations" book, but there are far too many rounded angles on them.
Thank you for making my point. Pat lee doesnt base his artwork on any past TF artwork ever done... Its a totaly different style called shohen, and pats is one of the most extreme examples of shohen. I could name a few, but I doubt youd read em, or like em considering you tend to hate on pat.

Quote:
You've picked a bad example, because the first few parts of Matrix Quest are technically very poor.
That was the point! If I judged furman based on that, and solely that, I would never have appreciated the rest of his work. But being someone that stuck with TF's through the budiansky years, It was heaps better then what I had seen under his tenure. And If I had said I hated TF's, based on so little understanding, I would not be taken seriously would I?

Quote:
Seriously, you think Chris wrote those wasted pages in G1Vol.1 with the Autobots just driving around? I give him more credit.
I chalk that up to another manga tradition, where the artists and writers are the same person. Ill give haters thier due that pat doesnt do his own bakgrounds in the comics, But I have faith that he is truly capable, as litographs show, given the time. and as for him deciding half the story and how it should progress.... what, you expect me to be shocked? Hes building a company based on a fusion of Japanese and western comic styles. My response is to simply shrug and ask whats the big deal? Now hes given mick more leeway in deciding dialouge and where the story goes. Grand! I still liked Vol 1 and had no difficulties knowing devestator was doing the TF version of a victory jig in the issue you mentioned. I read another complant bout Vol 2 #1 where panels and dialouge from the openning battle scrolled from right to left, and confused several readers. But in asian countries, thats how most magazines and literary publications are printed. Ive gotten so used to the style, i didnt even notice it until somewhat pointed it out. Ive been reading manga so long that reading in that format is as common as reading left to right. And once again, this time with FEELING, its well known that DW is a company that is merging Japanese and western styles of storytelling, so once again.. Me: *Shrugs and ponders what is all the hubub about*

As for your comment bout my making generalizations bout cliff, its true. I have only read a few essays, and posts from him. yet they have all shared the same thesis that I mentioned. If I have misjudged him, I apologize, and look forward to seeing a more modest, polite, and openminded version of him in the future. Mayhap you can direct me to the posts that show his less talked about virtues?
 
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Old 2003-11-23, 05:09 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Thank you for making my point. Pat lee doesnt base his artwork on any past TF artwork ever done... Its a totaly different style called shohen, and pats is one of the most extreme examples of shohen. I could name a few, but I doubt youd read em, or like em considering you tend to hate on pat.
So, you're not going to attempt to defend their use in a Transformers series? Fair enough. I don't see how it can be defended—we're talking about huge, blocky robots with a lot of hard edges; they should not be rounded.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
That was the point! If I judged furman based on that, and solely that, I would never have appreciated the rest of his work. But being someone that stuck with TF's through the budiansky years,
Er, you don't seem to understand the extent of the role Bob played in Transformers, being involved in the initial character profiling, most of the tech specs, defining of Megatron and Shockwave, early Matrix work, and so on.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
It was heaps better then what I had seen under his tenure. And If I had said I hated TF's, based on so little understanding, I would not be taken seriously would I?
Correct. We're not saying Pat is a bad person. We're saying that his work—on a specific range of books—is poor. Nothing more, nothing less. Yet you've misread everything hitherto posted as both a personal attack on the man and ignored the portions which acknowledge his skills at illustrating posters.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
I chalk that up to another manga tradition,
Bear in mind that, although the original sketches come from a Japanese designer, Transformers is a very American product.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
I still liked Vol 1 and had no difficulties knowing devestator was doing the TF version of a victory jig in the issue you mentioned.
When it comes to people being able to follow panel to panel and expressions... what one or two people think is irrelevant. Nor is it of use to examine the question retrospectively, after we learn what he doing. I'm going by the response across a large number of boards prior to issue after it coming out.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
But in asian countries,
Again, nothing to do with the target audience. If it fails to sell to the demographic it's marketed at—it has failed.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
its well known that DW is a company that is merging Japanese and western styles of storytelling, so once again.. Me: *Shrugs and ponders what is all the hubub about*
In that case, they should try targetting and selling their wares to people in another demographic. Because it loses them fans. What you or I think about it as individuals matters relatively little... it's the lowest common denominator—the regular joe with an IQ in low double digits—that they have to contend with.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Mayhap you can direct me to the posts that show his less talked about virtues?
Try topics in this forum with more than a dozen replies. Cliffy is equally critical of writers whose output he appreciates, if he feels they aren't performing well. You'll also find a lot of positive comments about fan works which offer comparable or better quality than licensed endeavours. After all, official in no way equates automatically with good.
 
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Old 2003-11-23, 05:46 AM   #37
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okay, one more round before I sign off for the evening.

Quote:
So, you're not going to attempt to defend their use in a Transformers series? Fair enough. I don't see how it can be defended—we're talking about huge, blocky robots with a lot of hard edges; they should not be rounded.
Defend it? What the blazes is there to defend?!?! Shohen is a popular and very accepted style in its home country.... and has enjoyed limited mainstream success. The international success peaked with the video game, Final Fantasy VII. Yet it is still widely used and is very popular. I dont mind seeing Prime and Co get the shohen treatment, nor do I mind seeing wildman do the arts for WW II. I am capable of appreciating several styles, and for those that arent into pats style, theres jae lee on the awesome TF/Gi Joe crossover from DW (blows the image crossover away IMHO) don figueroa, guido Guidi, ect


Quote:
Er, you don't seem to understand the extent of the role Bob played in Transformers, being involved in the initial character profiling, most of the tech specs, defining of Megatron and Shockwave, early Matrix work, and so on.
Ive been on board the TF franchise since #1 of the american comic. and have never missed a single us produced issue. Im well aware of budiansky's involvement. Just because he developed the profiles, and did a mostly acceptable job at it, does not exscuse the horrid stories or contrivances he introduced to the comic. I could go on, but rest assured, I am well aware of all the facts on budiansky, and I still have little to no respect for his work. I pity the hand he was dealt, which is not TOTALLY unlike the hand furman is dealing with on Armada, or dealt with during his run on the UK TF's is it?

Quote:
Bear in mind that, although the original sketches come from a Japanese designer, Transformers is a very American product.
Pardon me, But even though the TF's got thier personalities outside of japan, thier origins, and the majority of thier success over the past 20 years has been in japan. I consider them a hybrid of the best of both worlds.

Quote:
Again, nothing to do with the target audience. If it fails to sell to the demographic it's marketed at—it has failed.
Quote:
In that case, they should try targetting and selling their wares to people in another demographic. Because it loses them fans. What you or I think about it as individuals matters relatively little... it's the lowest common denominator—the regular joe with an IQ in low double digits—that they have to contend with.
Ummm, While DW has commercially appealed to the old nostalgia crowd, I still see heaps of manga and anime influences in the comics. Its obvious Pat and co are appealing to those with an open enough mind to accept something new, and to those that are familiar with TF's Japanese adventures. G1 is doing well enough to merit a ongoing series, and with Don Figueora on board (whos style is still japanese, but more of a mainstream sort of style then pats) the fans that gag at pats work should have little to complain about. where as the art is concerned.

On a related matter, Another popular complaint I can only give my *Shrug and ponder* response to is the megatron prime relationship in Vol 1. Now, in most western comics, the bad guy typically approaches heroes with the mentality "Im either going to kill you, or make you suffer before I kill you". As is the case with 99% of the prime/megatron relationship in the past. Yet, In most manga and anime Ive read, a true villan is the sort that can take a hero, and make him into a villan. Vash's relationship with knives in Trigun, Makoto Shishio's respect for his senpai (predacessor) Kenshin himura in Rurouni kenshin, Bisons constant attempts to brainwash or convert ryu and ken in the Street fighter Animes, X's Yaoi relationship (trust me guys, you dont even wanna know the translation for Yaoi) between fuma and kamui, despite thier destiny to kill one another... That sort of thin line between the villan and hero has been done countless amount of times. I thought the megs/prime angle in Vol 1 had cred cuz megs and prime always did have a grudging respect for one another, and Megs seeing prime used, played, and manipulated by the humans hes protecting... well who wouldnt feel pity for someone they respect going through that? I thought it was a truly original take on the Prime/Megatron deal... and chris wrote it very well IMHO. so when people complain... "WHY DIDNT MEGATRON JUST SHOOT HIM?" I can only *Shrug and ponder*

Quote:
Correct. We're not saying Pat is a bad person. We're saying that his work—on a specific range of books—is poor. Nothing more, nothing less. Yet you've misread everything hitherto posted as both a personal attack on the man and ignored the portions which acknowledge his skills at illustrating posters.
no, not at all. I understand entirely why some people gag at pats work, its so not for everyone. In japan, Shohen tends to be used modestly. it's translation, in the most literal sense, is "For guys". Most shohen style series, like say vandread which features large breasted and scantily clothed women by the truckload, and lots of stuff going *boom* uses the exagerated designs of shohen for only a few of its mecha, opting for a more mainstream (AKA sreamlined and sleak) designs for the main mecha of the show. My main point is, that If someone could come with at least a slight knowledge of the styles used in japan, and that pat lee has originated from... I could take criticisims of pats style a bit more seriously. In the same way, even if I were to have read one or two chapters of Target:2006, or half of Edge of Extinction, I wouldnt really have a good frame of refference to enjoy those superb works, due to my lack of understanding of what has come before. a dislike, I can understand. An attack on the quality... Its a little harder for me to understand when most have had so little exposure. Nonetheless I still respect the opinions of everyone here.. even when I have to disagree. Im Simply trying to give those an understanding as to why I disagree... as I try to understand thier reasons as well. there is no disrespect taken, or intended. And I hope noone assumes such.


also, thanks for the 411 on cliff... Ill read around some another time and try to come to a better understanding of him. Still disagree with most of his essays, but maybe theres more to him then what Ive seen so far.
 

Last edited by Ishin_ookami; 2003-11-23 at 06:29 AM.
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Old 2003-11-23, 06:50 AM   #38
Denyer
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Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
What the blazes is there to defend?!?!
Its lack of suitability for the Transformers property.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
I pity the hand he was dealt, which is not TOTALLY unlike the hand furman is dealing with on Armada, or dealt with during his run on the UK TF's is it?
Furman seems happy to pick up the extra pay cheque. Budiansky seemed to loathe the position he found himself stuck in, being taken less seriously within the comics industry of the time because of his involvement in a toy franchise.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Pardon me, But even though the TF's got thier personalities outside of japan,
And that's the clincher: characterisation.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
I thought the megs/prime angle in Vol 1 had cred cuz megs and prime always did have a grudging respect for one another,
Correct. Making this angle in no way original. It was given far more time, dialogue and depth in Marvel US G2.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Most shohen style series, like say vandread which features large breasted and scantily clothed women by the truckload, and lots of stuff going *boom* uses the exagerated designs of shohen for only a few of
Ah, great. Just what TFs is all about, then... *cough*

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
My main point is, that If someone could come with at least a slight knowledge of the styles used in japan, and that pat lee has originated from... I could take criticisims of pats style a bit more seriously.
It's irrelevant... the characterisation and background story are what are important, not exercises in artistic masturbation.

Transformers, more than anything else, is about war. Its consequences, its effects on individuals, and coping mechanisms. Humour is amongst them, but is typically either dark or facetious.

An art style in which characters are exaggerated, lose their angularity (what marks them out as robots, distinct from the million-and-one other combat droid series out there) and art conflicts with story is antithetical to the origin and traditions of this period of Transformers history.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
An attack on the quality... Its a little harder for me to understand when most have had so little exposure.
Exposure to an inability to draw perspective? Dreamwave have a stock pose, which involves characters squatting and stretching one arm forward. It lacks originality. It evidences a lack of skill.
 
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Old 2003-11-23, 10:10 AM   #39
Ozz
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And the lesson for today, don't say Pat Lee's artwork sucks, cause you don't know jack about shohen and manga style.

He can use whatever style he wants, as long as he starts to draw the way I know what's going on in the panels. That takes all the fun of reading the comic away. And from what I saw I wasn't the only one who was confused.

I still think you guys shouldn't slag Jose Delbo, because he was using ancient Latino American style of art which you people just don't understand.
 

-Okay, the bomb's dropped. Life goes on. No amount of sulking or worrying changes that. We've got our own lives to live. In that regard, in five minutes time, I am using the autopilot on the Midnight Runner and taking it down the pub. If I go on my own, I go on my own.
-Well. Wait up, you horrible English git. While I'm around, you don't have to go anywhere on your own.
And, one by one, the others follow.
And, one by one, they begin to smile.
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Old 2003-11-23, 02:35 PM   #40
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Last edited by Cyberstrike nTo; 2003-11-23 at 02:40 PM.
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