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Old 2003-11-23, 04:13 PM   #41
Ishin_ookami
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Its lack of suitability for the Transformers property.
Well, that really is a matter of opinion isnt it. There are many that do truly seem to like Pats art, just as there are many that dont. Im not here to convert you, But Ive enjoyed pats work on TF's thus far... Well, save for his armada issues.

Quote:
And that's the clincher: characterisation.
Nope, thats what made them unique. Prior to TF's, all japanese giant robots had pilots, just check out the original models of the dinobots. It was hasbros idea to give them personalities. What makes them a true hybrid is without the japanese keeping the toyline and series going long after the west market gave up on them, we never would have seen best wars, beast mistakes, RID, Armada, and the new comic series that are out today.

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I thought the megs/prime angle in Vol 1 had cred cuz megs and prime always did have a grudging respect for one another,

Correct. Making this angle in no way original. It was given far more time, dialogue and depth in Marvel US G2.
I always thought that G2 had them becoming buddies a bit too quickly, but I chalk that up to Furman, once again, writing while the axeman and hangman play rock, paper scissors to see who gets to off the book. I liked how Vol 1 played the angle of many of the Autobots losing thier respect for the humans, and Megatron playing on that. Once again though, I have seen that angle so many times, its old hat to me. I thought it was very new for TF's, and sarracini wrote it well enough to be amusing.

Quote:
Ah, great. Just what TFs is all about, then... *cough*
No, I was trying to illustrate how even in japan, shohen is moderately used. Besides, Lee could always resurrect circut breaker if he ever wants to incorporate fan service. Id sooner he left her a vegetable though.

Quote:
Transformers, more than anything else, is about war. Its consequences, its effects on individuals, and coping mechanisms. Humour is amongst them, but is typically either dark or facetious.

An art style in which characters are exaggerated, lose their angularity (what marks them out as robots, distinct from the million-and-one other combat droid series out there) and art conflicts with story is antithetical to the origin and traditions of this period of Transformers history.
Potatoe potato. Like I said, I liked the infusion of the big bad and bodacious sort of shohen style to the TF's. And Ive seen enough of it that Its lost all effect surprise me. Its not for everyone though, and I dont expect everyone to like it. When #1 of vol 1 was released, a friend asked me how good was it. I explained it depends on how much you can stand a slow buildup, and shohen anime styles. From Day 1 I knew the book wasnt going to be for everyone... I personally still thought it rocked though.
 

Last edited by Ishin_ookami; 2003-11-23 at 06:02 PM.
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Old 2003-11-23, 04:20 PM   #42
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Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
What makes them a true hybrid is without the japanese keeping the toyline and series going long after the west market gave up on them, we never would have seen best wars, beast mistakes, RID, Armada, and the new comic series that are out today.
Actually Europe had transformers going strong long after the USA had stopped it, If you looked up your facts you will see that Europe had a number of exclusive toys during the G2, actionmaster years and that carried them straight into Beast Wars and into all the new shows. Whilst it is true the Japanese carried on with the Cartoon after everyone else Europe carried on having toys and transformers was still kinda popular (though not as much as in its hay days)
 
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Old 2003-11-23, 05:09 PM   #43
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Originally posted by Cliffjumper
Wow, I knew Cyberstrike was a tit, and countercase has tittish leanings, but still...

I simply pointed it out because I thought it was ****ing funny that what was obviously an industry comment, or even a rough note, was left in the final printing of the issue. Christ, you people'd be at home at Seibertron...

Yeh, I'm anti-Dreamwave for no ****ing reason. Sure. Right. When I get my next site update done, you'll see how low my opinion of lots of the Marvel stuff, including that by Furman in some cases, is. Dreamwave gets more mention because IT'S HAPPENING NOW, YOU DIMWITTED CRETINS.

I don't love Armada for Furman. If you morons actually, oh I dunno, actually check what the Hell you're talking about, you'll find I was hugely positive about the first arc of Armada overall, and a helluva lot less against the dreaded issue 3 than most. I was lauding the thing before the Furman badnwagon jumpers. I also strongly feel that Furman's Armada work has suffered from his biggest failing, an inability to do decent conclusions - think Target 2006 [Galvatron just buggers off], Time Wars [everyone bar Prime, Shockwave, Scourge and Galvatron is brushed aside], End of the Road [sure, they only reputedly had a month's notice it was all over; doesn't make the story any better though], War Within... And it runs over to his Armada work. The first two issues, the Pat Lee ones, are the worst comics of the series so far [and I can't see 17 or 18 being especially poor]. The Moonbase arc is fantastic, until #11, where it degenrates intoa series of flukes and cliches. The space laser arc is the most miserable padding storyline seen in Transformers since, oh, the G2 Distant Thunder rip-off. Worlds Collide is pretty cool, but to be 100% fair, it cribs a huge amount from Target 2006, and lots of it's crowd-pleasing - Galvatron's time-jump team should be carrying a big banner saying "Trading on Past Glories". I simply overall find Armada less of a grandstanding title - none of the characters have these fanboys who have to be satisfied by the same old cliched cyphers acting like some terrible TV show. The main reason I like Armada is it has a plot. Sometimes not a very good one, sometimes not a very original one, but it reads like a comic rather than a self-conscious nostalgia sales events. There is no way I am changing my well-founded, backed-up opinions about something because a pair of ignorant fools like you two brand them as prejudicial.

I've just realised what a waste of time justifying them to both of you are, as you just ignore anythign I say and bandy around the same nonsense as before. Though thanks to Cyberstrike who reminding me why his ignroant arse is on my Ignore List, and I'm sure at this point Counterpunch will do one of his/hers/whatevernotlikeitmattersorigivea**** "well, that's my opinion so I'll not post in this topic again and run away because I can't actually debate anything" escapes.

Cliffy,

I'm in a foul mood right now so if this seems harsh I'm sorry.

I come the school if you don' like it don't buy it. Now maybe I'm picky or maybe when you read as many comics as I'm not looking
as carfully as you do. I like some DW TF books and others I'm so-so with. But flaming me for not your sharing opionion is not right
like I said I'm in an extermely foul mood and tring to keep my temper in check. As Counterpunch said:
"If you don'tlike it why are you buying them?"
Now maybe your wealthy or something right now I don't nor do I care.

Now as far being "Ingorant" goes if you read your War and Peices essay you'll see that I agreed let me repeat that for you:
I AGREE WITH YOU! with you on just about all of it.

As to reading as a lot of your posts I do have a life and that does prevent me from reading your stuff.

I'm also of the opinion that you are an assclown because it seems that when people don't bow down and kiss your ass and agree with you that they are somehow "stupid and ingorant"
I really don't give a damn if you put me on your ingore list or not
that's you right.

As far as being a "tit" it takes one to know to one.
 



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Old 2003-11-23, 05:19 PM   #44
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wow, quite a nice argument.....

i do agree that lee does do some absolutely fantastic artwork for posters and lithos, and i dont love his artwork for the tf volumes but its good enough for me to like (hell i hate mankhe or whoever it is whose doing JLA atm but its good enough for me to read the book). i think pat lee would improve as an artist alot more if he did kind of tone down the body parts (theyre very big and bulky...... so bulky that they make it as if the bots have difficulty to move, reminds me of steiner in wwe at the moment, so muscly that he can hardly move) and bloody wel get rid of the way he insists of going like
........ _
...... /
......|


instead of
.... _
....|


for the angles, if he would do away with those i would like him alot more as an artist..

sorry for the dots, wouldnt display it properly otherwise

i actually do like the style in which the comics written, it has more of a bitter long lasting feud, understand each other and have a special bond, i mean i would like it as if megatron didnt hate prime because he was good, but instead because he stood in his way of conquest... and good for megatron to acknowledge prime is one hell of an opponent, i mean this is a silly example but take winston churchill, on a radio broadcast at the beginning of world war II he said something like "no i do not hate Hitler, but i dispise his actions he has brought down on his people"...

anyway, i myself am a big fan of anime which may be a reason why i dont have as much of a problem with pats work as other people, but i do agree with what people are saying.. the transformers book shouldnt be written and drawn as if it were for an asian market, yes the art style could be influenced but drawing other influences (such as page layouts) and other things shouldnt be there because it is targeted at a western audiance, so really what i think should be done is asian influenced art and writing in an american framework (as in flowing frames which dont confuse you cos some are round the wrong way)
 
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Old 2003-11-23, 06:25 PM   #45
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anyway, i myself am a big fan of anime which may be a reason why i dont have as much of a problem with pats work as other people, but i do agree with what people are saying.. the transformers book shouldnt be written and drawn as if it were for an asian market, yes the art style could be influenced but drawing other influences (such as page layouts) and other things shouldnt be there because it is targeted at a western audiance, so really what i think should be done is asian influenced art and writing in an american framework (as in flowing frames which dont confuse you cos some are round the wrong way)
I do have to agree with you on that one, Myself personally, read mostly Marvel and dark horse produced comics up until the end of high school, but eventually defected to manga and anime for, less stereotypical stories and far more leeway, less censorship, far more clever writing and characterization, and much more variety. I still do pick up a marvel or Dark horse title every now and then, Point being is that I know that I am in the minority when it comes to my flexibility in being able to enjoy either asian themed stories, or western themed. Most people dont have the exposure I have. Like I said, in the first issue of Vol 2, when Lee drew the panels scrolling right to left I didnt clue in to the manga referrence until a fan complained about it online. I just simply read that page the way I would most manga, then switched back to reading left to right, so simply that I didnt notice it. But Most fans of TF want the style to be either one way, or another. Which is why it is good for DW that they are producing various TF stories in a variety of styles. I personally think the TF/ Gi Joe crossover rocks on so many levels. Don figuerora does have so many ties to manga and anime, yet his style is far more mainstream then Pat Lee. Guido Guidi definately reminds me of Wildman during his time on the marvel G1 comic, Jae Lee's style is remaniscent of seiniors, except much darker and grittier. DW is now marketing to all audiances, and with Don Figueroa doing the pencils for the G1 ongoing, hopefully it will have a much more mainstream appeal. W&P was still very successful, and more mainstream focused then Vol 1, but I would still like to see G1 enjoy as much success as possible, and enjoy a variety of drawing and writing styles to appease all fans.

By the way, while were on the topic... ill just say that Jetfire's redesign in WW II looks like something of a hybrid of Maccross Plus's VF-19 and VF-21. Point being, could the various artists out there stop making the poor guy macross's personal Beeyotch? Hes been getting design hand-me-downs from that series for 20 years, Methinks its time he got a thoroughly original design. Any other anime fans here notice this as well?
 

Last edited by Ishin_ookami; 2003-11-23 at 06:30 PM.
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Old 2003-11-24, 01:52 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
What makes them a true hybrid is without the japanese keeping the toyline and series going long after the west market gave up on them,
There's never been any appreciable gap.
 
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Old 2003-11-24, 01:17 PM   #47
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Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
-clip-
Most people dont have the exposure I have. Like I said, in the first issue of Vol 2, when Lee drew the panels scrolling right to left I didnt clue in to the manga referrence until a fan complained about it online. I just simply read that page the way I would most manga, then switched back to reading left to right, so simply that I didnt notice it.
Though I understand what you mean, I disagree. I´m used to reading manga, both mirrored and from right to left. No matter that, I had to read that page few times. Though I like and am used to different panel layouts(?), I think it was useless and irritating solution. In nutshell it made reading more difficult without any benefits.

In my opinion your "manga (shonen) influence" is an excuse. In Japan similar case would mean that in a story with about 140 pages, there´d be one two page (double page, spread) where pages are still read from right to left, but some panels went from left to right. Not confusing for most readers?
 
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Old 2003-11-24, 09:12 PM   #48
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In my opinion your "manga (shonen) influence" is an excuse. In Japan similar case would mean that in a story with about 140 pages, there´d be one two page (double page, spread) where pages are still read from right to left, but some panels went from left to right. Not confusing for most readers?
Ive seen it done friend, and in all honesty, I really did have absoloutly no trouble understanding what was going on in the page... So I just chalk it up to my experience with the medium.

dont mean to get off topic, but what manga's have you read BTW...
 
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Old 2003-11-25, 11:38 AM   #49
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Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Ive seen it done friend, and in all honesty, I really did have absoloutly no trouble understanding what was going on in the page... So I just chalk it up to my experience with the medium.
But won´t comment my first paragraph(?), which was my point...

Quote:
dont mean to get off topic, but what manga's have you read BTW...
Normal, just what springs in mind right away
Katsuhiro Otomo; Akira, Domu
Hayao Miyazaki; Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind
Rumiko Takahashi; Ranma½, Maison Ikkoku, Rumic World
Dragon Ball (swedish translation)
Blade of the Immortal
Banana Fish (terrible)
Transformers-manga
Oh my Goddess
Astro Boy (some, german editions)

Various collections/magazines
Lots of fan translated manga scans, for example "Hikaru no go".
 
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Old 2003-11-26, 03:01 AM   #50
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But won´t comment my first paragraph(?), which was my point...
And how would you have me respond? I typically dont make a habit of repeating myself osku. I stated I had no issue with it, none at all. If you did, I dont really have anything to say. I found it amusing, effective, and have always appreciated those that experiment to find new styles, pats merging japanese sensibilities with some typically us ones is a great idea. If you, or anyone else have issues with it... nothing I can say will really change it, no matter how much I enjoy his work

Also, in reply to your post, those are all good manga. Lately unfortunately, Love hina has been filling up all comic shops. *Barf* all the fanboys rave: yah, its a really great love story, very touching....". its *Touching* alright. But I can do without garritous T&A in my manga. I do miss One Pound Gospel, a great but not terrifically successful series from takahashi, as well as her short lived mermaid saga. Great Teacher Onizuka is also a good series, Nausica is a classic, so's lodoss, X, Urusei Yatsura, Lone wolf & cub, Patlabor (Gasp, Shohen mecha! Pat Lee haters run for your lives ). Stryker was alrite, I liked the character of mirage. Maison Ikkoku will always be my favorite, city hunter is always good for a laugh as well. and cowboy bebop came out with some decent side stories in manga format. The trigun, and Rurouni kenshin Manga's just recently became available. If your into anime, pick up those two. the anime they are derived from are both True classics, though kenshin is my favorite.

and of course, anyone who complains Pat Lee sucks at drawing humans, avoid all these and manga in general. You will probably enjoy these comic series less considering all the humans look even stranger for the most part, and manga is drawn in B&W.

Transform and roll out Space cowboy
 

Last edited by Ishin_ookami; 2003-11-26 at 03:03 AM.
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Old 2003-11-26, 03:40 AM   #51
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God, I got bored with that argument. As far as I'm concerned all that matters is what I think (I can see some people taking that the wrong way). What I mean is, I'm not going to change my opinion because someone elese disagrees with me, it's what I think is what's important. I respect your opinons, I disagree with some of them, I agree with others. And I like Pat Lee's artwork. I enjoy looking at it. I enjoy admiring it. I feel it's high-quality and some of the more impressive artwork from non-manga comics recently... Except the lovely Street Fighter and Megaman comics. Conincidently also by Dreamwave.

In Australia, the comic industry sucks, I have to travel one hour to get to the nearest import comic store. Luckily the Generation 1 Six issue mini-series was printed here in a two-issue per book format... So that is the only experience I've had with his artwork. Unless he also does the 'More than meets the Eye' glossary comics.

I've probably already pissed of whole heap of people with this post. Not bad for a second post, huh?
 

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Old 2003-11-26, 09:34 AM   #52
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Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Ive seen it done friend, and in all honesty, I really did have absoloutly no trouble understanding what was going on in the page... So I just chalk it up to my experience with the medium.
And there be the problem, you see in creating a comic (or most mediums to be honest) you have to aim for the lowest denominator

For instance transformers could start adding mass references to stuff that only an avid fan might enjoy. I don't mean easter egss like an appearence of Jazz I mean events happening that if you didn't know what happened in UK #100 then the story made no sense and appears ****. I may say its a genious work cause I know all about it but someone who hasn't read uk #100 wouldn't have a clue. Thats why story writers are normally careful to make sure everything is either in the comic for people to see or obvious.

Artists have a similar duty, their art has to be obvious to whomever is reading it without direct knowledge of styles. When I read a tf issue I have to often read multiple pages several times just to understand whats going on. However whilst i agree some of Pat Lees posters are of top notch quality a lot of his comic poses are rubbish. I don't have a scan with me but just look at the Megatron at the back of the recent Dreamwave comics, he looks **** and all his limbs appear to be n wrong places and flabby.
 
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Old 2003-11-26, 10:25 AM   #53
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And there be the problem, you see in creating a comic (or most mediums to be honest) you have to aim for the lowest denominator
Okay, Im gonna begin a rant here... dont take it personally compy... just that term vexes me to the extreme

I SO totally despise that lowest denominator thinking ****. For being as true as it is nauseating. One of my favorite films "Final Fantays: Spirits Within" Was a total creative masterpiece. It didnt so much have a message, or moral, as it had a soul and alot of obvious hard work went into crafting every bit of the story and characters. And why did it Bomb: Enter the fanboys (the lowest denominator) and thier "It doesnt have any characters from the games" BS.

"The Lowest Denominator", is the reason all of jet li's american films suck compared to his hong kong stuff, the reason Jackie Chan has gotten so out of shape since leaving the Hong kong film scene, the reason the G1 Marvel series and the G2 series got cancelled in thier prime, and the reason Gladiator Actually Beat Crouching Tiger hidden Dragon at the oscars, And why Bob Dylan won the oscar for best song that night, while coco Lee went Back east determined not to release another english track for a VERY long while. And why Marvel just wouldnt let magneto stay dead, and brought him back for the umpteenth time this year.

Im so sick of the lowest denominator Ruining perfectly mediums of pop culture, and shafting hard working artists who deserve more credit then they get just because they dont kowtow to unwashed masses. The Lowest Denominator, is the reason Adam Sandler is successful as a filmmaker, is the reason There will be a tomb raider III, Why Marvels much hyped "End of wolverine" storyline is a piece of ****, If they wont kill off magneto, are we supposed to believe they wilk kill thier most popular original character ever? I think not.

There are some artists working today such as Eminem, christine aguilera, Dr Dre, and others that I will never enjoy, but I will give them thier props when I say that they have talent, and have worked hard for thier success. I can see why thier fans enjoy them, Its just that Im not one of them. they dont so much as market to the lowest denominator, as they market to a niche in our society that needs more help then they do marketing.

This relates to Pat Lee like this, If you dont enjoy it, Then dont. Noones holding a gun to your head. If you wanna make a post saying how much you dont enjoy it, go ahead, its your perogative. But when posts come about pissing on others and just looking for something to complain about thats when things have gone too far. Surely by now it should occur to Pat Lee haters, that he does have some very filled in fans that are not wet behind the ears TF newbies, baptized in the waters of Armada and Car Robots (RID). Are we in the majority, Im not arrogant enough to say yay or nay, but Pats Obviously successful enough to warrent an ongoing. And Good for him. For once the Lowest Denominator doesnt win out, and I for one am glad. Finally something new, different, and actually quality is being produced. And Successfully nonetheless. I am so happy that finally TF's are getting thier long denied Mainstream comic success. Its long past time.

For all those that are still discontent, theres plenty other DW TF stuff out there thats Quality WW, Armada, TF/Gi joe, Upcoming BW products, MTMTE. And Don is even doing the G1 ongoing for a while. So lay off will ya, the argument is dead, and is not going anywhere.

Pat Lee is here to stay. For all the complaints, others should at least respect him for the fact that he doesnt market to the lowest denominator, and has yet made a successful company without doing so. A very difficult task indeed, and Bravo for him being successful in it.


Quote:
I've probably already pissed of whole heap of people with this post. Not bad for a second post, huh?
Nah, there are quite a few Pat Lee fans here, we just dont have the "Shove it down yer throat" Mentailty most of his detractors do.
 
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Old 2003-11-26, 10:43 AM   #54
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Originally posted by Computron
And there be the problem, you see in creating a comic (or most mediums to be honest) you have to aim for the lowest denominator
This approach did give us the original 'G1' shows, y'know...

I agree that inter-story dependence may be a bad thing in some cases, but practised well (and let's be honest, it's a miracle that the Marvel UK series hangs together as well as it does—Furman was juggling so many balls at times his sky must have blotted out) it's a winning formula.

It has to please both a low denominator and reward intelligent fans... those who are typically the reviewers, media access point for others and similar roles. Those that aren't in the pockets of suits, anyway, which counts for quite a lot.

Defenders of Pat Lee who have seen the majority of other TF output of the past twenty years appear to be in an absolute minority. The rest of us have marked out the flaws, are prepared to accept his strengths where we find them, and pull no punches either way...
 
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Old 2003-11-26, 09:39 PM   #55
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This approach did give us the original 'G1' shows, y'know...
had the actualy SHOW had been good, maybe the Comic would have been treated a bit more seriously. The show was awful, and I for one cannot fathom anyone picking up the DVD's to relive what was a crapfest with very few quality bits of stortelling.


Quote:
It has to please both a low denominator and reward intelligent fans...
Nope, wrong again. Its a long held believe that a anime series has to practice the time honored tradition of fanservice (Blatant and almost ludicrous sex appeal for the men, and on a lesser part, for women) to be successful. Yet two of my favorite series, Trigun and Rurouni Kenshin, rebelled against this trend. Rurouni Kenshin Went so far as to add a sly joke near the end of the first season, cracking on the topic of fanservice, and how it would not have any of its characters portrayed as such. Both series are considered Staples in the genere for thier originality, characterizations, stylized animation, intellegently writtin fight scenes, and dramatic storylines underlined by not-out-of-place comic relief. Proving that a well put together enough series, can stand without marketing to the lowest common denominator. Keep in mind that most TF nuts are VERY mild when compared to japanese Otaku, and a series succeeding in japan, without marketing to the rabid otaku fanbase is oft considered nigh impossible.

Quote:
Defenders of Pat Lee who have seen the majority of other TF output of the past twenty years appear to be in an absolute minority
RIGHT! Like Simon furman and Wildman. Complete novices those two! why, if only they actually read one of the old TF comics, like when ratchet or megs were merged into one bot, gee I wonder who wrote and drew that ish?

Sorry, But Im living proof that Pat Lee fans are not wet behind the ears novices. My first TF comic was the TF #1 from marvel. Havnt missed a tf issue since. Maybe, just maybe... I dunno, Pat Lee is actually good at what he does, and you hate him for the same reasons people hated wildman on the old Marvel G1, and others hated Senior's work on the same book.... hmmmm, I dunno. COULD THAT BE IT? Could the whole Pat Lee Sucks/Rocks argument be a useless example of differring tastes? And not need any further mention? hmmmmmm. Oh yah, and on a related note.....

Pat Lee haters out there, Brace yourself. There is a new Optimus Prime Bust available, sculpted in Pat Lees rendition of him. You've been warned, BEWARE! BEWARE!

Just thought I would be the first one to post that before someone made a post making "The end is truly upon us" remarks.

Sorry, But i for one am a bit sick of this whole ongoing argument bout pat lee. Its a difference of taste, nothing more. And other peoples taste deserve to be respected. Ive mentioned where the style comes from, and why it would appeal, and not appeal to certain people. And While people like Ozz would have you believe Im a rampaging bigot that despeses all that do not bow to pat lee, Ive done so to simply make my point. I have Even addressed all the popular complaints bout the art (Devestator in #4, typical lack of expressions, the huge and oversized look, counter clockwise scrolling panels, ect ect ect) maybe its about time we all moved on with our lives. mkay
 

Last edited by Ishin_ookami; 2003-11-26 at 09:48 PM.
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Old 2003-11-26, 09:50 PM   #56
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tis a shame that true japanese comics are in black and white, hell of a hard time reading akira and guyver..... i saw X a few months ago... confused the hell outta me, maybe thats cos i wasnt paying the utmost attention but will watch it again.
 
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Old 2003-11-26, 09:57 PM   #57
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Yes, people, I'm drunk and high, I'm babbling senseless ****, such things I was mentioning never happened, I've made it all up. Don't listen to me.
 
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Old 2003-11-27, 03:22 AM   #58
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tis a shame that true japanese comics are in black and white, hell of a hard time reading akira and guyver..... i saw X a few months ago... confused the hell outta me, maybe thats cos i wasnt paying the utmost attention but will watch it again.
Just a reccommendation, start with rumiko takahashi. Ranma, maison ikkoku, and inu yasha are all great series, that are drawn in a far more mainstream and easier to interpret style then most manga. Most non japanese manga fans have cut thier teeth on takahashi's work. And considering shes the top female comic writer/artist in the world, that says something bout the quality of her stuff. As for X, The movie does that to alot of people, some parts of it you will have to think through, and the manga is still ongoing. The TV series is almost all released and dubbed into english, but I liked the movie more. oh well, back to TF's.

TF City of Fear just got released as a graphic novel, can anyone tell me the quality of the story, or lack of it?
 
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Old 2003-11-29, 02:43 PM   #59
spiderfrommars
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Well hello again Ishin. Long time no see.

The City of Fear TPB has quite a bit of filler in it (Deadly Games, Firebug, etc.) which marks it out as the worst UK reprint so far. Its not helped by the fact that these issues are constantly reprinted out of order, which leads to quite a disjointed read.

There's plenty to enjoy for Ultra Magnus fans, and a nice melding of Night of the Living Dead to TF sensibilities. The main 6 issue arc (City of Fear/Legion of the Lost/Meltdown) is worth buying it alone. The art isn't great though, as Senior took some time off from Transformers in 1988, though Lee Sullivan (probably the 2nd best ever UK artist) does a great job on the concluding story.
 
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Old 2003-11-29, 04:44 PM   #60
Denyer
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Nope, wrong again.
I'm not discussing anime. The statement "It has to please both a low denominator and reward intelligent fans..." is one of the defining points of successful fiction; it has a wider appeal than either MTV culture or a critical elite.

I'm unsure how a point can be 'wrong' when you seem to be engaged in a different conversation to most of the people here.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Yet two of my favorite series,
...series that fail to get any name recognition from me whatsoever, incidentally proving my above point. Writing of high appeal and quality will break from subculture into a relative mainstream at some point. They gather momentum.

This is why writers such as Iain M. Banks and William Gibson are what we'd define as successful. They stand up to close scrutiny and have a wide appeal which spreads beyond an obsessively sci-fi niche.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Im living proof that Pat Lee fans are not wet behind the ears novices.
You're in a minority which, although whinging loudly, is just that... a minority.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Pat Lee is actually good at what he does, and you hate him for the same reasons people hated wildman on the old Marvel G1
I don't actually hate any of the artistry in the original comics... I don't actually hate any TF artistry, even Pat's. Of course, that doesn't mean I consider it technically competent or capable of telling a story. The output produced by Marvel doesn't suffer from 'frame confusion' and is, therefore, technically superior in the way it's marketed to its intended demographic.

The word 'hate' is generally only brought into arguments by people determined to polarise them.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Could the whole Pat Lee Sucks/Rocks argument be a useless example of differring tastes?
No. The success of work on a comic can determined by objective criteria as well as stylistic preference.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Pat Lee haters out there, Brace yourself. There is a new Optimus Prime Bust available, sculpted in Pat Lees rendition of him. You've been warned, BEWARE! BEWARE!
I can see more people buying masterpiece Prime. In fact, I know without a shadow of doubt that this will be the case.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
Sorry, But i for one am a bit sick of this whole ongoing argument bout pat lee. Its a difference of taste, nothing more.
No, it isn't. And believe me, I can pull the subjective/objective distinction in a wide variety of situations... this does not alter the existence of structured criteria which exist for the analysis of specific types of fiction.

Everyone has the right to an opinion. All opinions are not equal, however.

Quote:
Originally posted by Ishin_ookami
While people like Ozz would have you believe Im a rampaging bigot that despeses all that do not bow to pat lee
I don't think Ozz thinks any such thing. I don't think he has any particular fondness for your tendency to add specious tangents to discussions. I'm rather in concurrence.
 
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